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PennSkinsFan
12-07-2007, 01:32 PM
This ticks me off

Link (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/)

It was clear the approach was different with a fourth quarter lead with Collins behind center. The Redskins were more aggressive and played to win, rather than trying to milk a lead not to lose. To me, they should have been giving Jason the same chances - rather than sticking with an inept running game against Buffalo and blowing it, again - but Saunders and Collins have been together a long time, and Gibbs - who is clearly more comfortable with older QBs - was gushing about him after the game.
"I've been with Todd for a long time," Saunders said after the game in a quote that was cut from my game story. "And it's like anything else: When you have a lot confidence and know what they can do, you have a tendency to do things a little differently."






This makes me mad. Why cant they take the reigns off of Jason.

bergiemoore
12-07-2007, 01:36 PM
This ticks me off

Link (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/)







This makes me mad. Why cant they take the reigns off of Jason.

Gibbs doesn't trust anyone under 30, hence our player-acquisition model...

AGibbsGirl
12-07-2007, 01:37 PM
Man that is pretty telling isn't it? Brings up a lot of what ifs doesn't it?

I think we all believe Jason has a lot more potential then what is being showed. I still don't understand how our first half passing game differs so dramatically from our second half...I mean how many games did we see Cooley racking it up in 1-2 and then nothing in 3-4?

I've never liked Saunders and this isn't helping....

smave
12-07-2007, 01:38 PM
This ticks me off

Link (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/)







This makes me mad. Why cant they take the reigns off of Jason.

You know there gameplan changed DRAMATICALLY in the 4th quarter with Collins then if Campbell were in there.

We had one drive in the 4th, we were up and went i believe 3 straight plays passing?

If campbell were in, it wouldve been 3 straight runs and punt

PennSkinsFan
12-07-2007, 01:42 PM
and like JLC said, it is a damn shame. Let Jason throw the ball. Yes, he ha sthrow two picks down close, but JC is also one of the top rising QBs and the reigns need to come off instead of playing to not lose.

JLC has said several times that plenty of his NFL soruces in the media and in the NFL list JC consistently int he top 15 QBs and RISING as he learns and progresses. People are seeing much of what us fans are. yes, he makes some poor passes late and that is the most difficult thing for a youngste rtolearn and he is learning, but the leaps in prugress he has made has been pretty substantial.

Spence
12-07-2007, 01:43 PM
It just confirms what some of us have said all along. Why did they give up 2 first round picks for this kid if they don't trust him to run the offense. The team was coming off a 5-11 season. What did they have to lose from letting Campbell play? If they had run the offense they ran last night against the Bills, Eagles and Giants, the Redskins would 9-4 and in the driver's seat for the top wild card in the NFC.

AGibbsGirl
12-07-2007, 01:45 PM
youngste rtolearn

Classic PSF! lol! :D

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 01:51 PM
It just confirms what some of us have said all along. Why did they give up 2 first round picks for this kid if they don't trust him to run the offense. The team was coming off a 5-11 season. What did they have to lose from letting Campbell play? If they had run the offense they ran last night against the Bills, Eagles and Giants, the Redskins would 9-4 and in the driver's seat for the top wild card in the NFC.
EXACTLY. It is unfortunately becoming more and more evident by the minute that the problems with this team start with our head coach. I don't see how anything substantial can improve without us making a change there.

SkinsfaninNJ
12-07-2007, 01:53 PM
EXACTLY. It is unfortunately becoming more and more evident by the minute that the problems with this team start with our head coach. I don't see how anything substantial can improve without us making a change there.

Not true. We can wait until Campbell turns 31 and then really take off from there. How old is he now?

techskinsfan
12-07-2007, 01:56 PM
the reigns had been taken off...campbell just didnt make the plays...early in the season it was conservative...and at times it still was conservative last night...campbell just didn't make the plays at the end of games thats it (don't put me in the arena with campbell haters, dont get me wrong i love the kid)

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 01:56 PM
Not true. We can wait until Campbell turns 31 and then really take off from there. How old is he now?
Almost 26....

BostonSkins
12-07-2007, 01:58 PM
the reigns had been taken off...campbell just didnt make the plays...early in the season it was conservative...and at times it still was conservative last night...campbell just didn't make the plays at the end of games thats it (don't put me in the arena with campbell haters, dont get me wrong i love the kid)

But he wouldn't be in a comeback situation if we had maybe scored a TD or two to extend some of those leads rather than blowing them. In the comeback situation the defense knows you have to throw.

SkinsfaninNJ
12-07-2007, 02:04 PM
Almost 26....

That's not too long.

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 02:22 PM
That's not too long.
Well, we've waited 15 years, what's another 5?

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 02:25 PM
Well, we've waited 15 years, what's another 5?

How about we tell Gibbs that the birth certificate was a fake, and he was born in 1975?

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 02:26 PM
How about we tell Gibbs that the birth certificate was a fake, and he was born in 1975?
Or even better 1875?

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 02:27 PM
Or even better 1875?

675. I think that was Campbell leading the left Flank at the Battle of Tours....

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 02:30 PM
675. I think that was Campbell leading the left Flank at the Battle of Tours....

Lmao..that would still make him almost 700 years younger than Collins. Any way you look at it, we still got to get Todd outta here...

Jon Creveling
12-07-2007, 02:31 PM
EXACTLY. It is unfortunately becoming more and more evident by the minute that the problems with this team start with our head coach. I don't see how anything substantial can improve without us making a change there.

It's been there for all to see, it's up to the fan himself whether to recognize it as such, or dismiss it with excuse, after excuse followed by further excuse!:)

firehawk157
12-07-2007, 02:39 PM
Lmao..that would still make him almost 700 years younger than Collins. Any way you look at it, we still got to get Todd outta here...
Todd Collins is really Jesus??? Well, uhhhhh, I do have to say I'm jumping on his bandwagon. He can make water out of wine and just get the other team trashed.

Seriously though, I'm wondering if Saunders was given the choice, he would choose Campbell. He wasn't in the war room when Gibbs made the decision to move up and draft Jason and he is just having to deal with it now. Does Saunders think Jason is the type of QB to lead his offense? If Gibbs is gone, does Saunders try to go get somebody else to run it?

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 02:42 PM
Todd Collins is really Jesus??? Well, uhhhhh, I do have to say I'm jumping on his bandwagon. He can make water out of wine and just get the other team trashed.

Seriously though, I'm wondering if Saunders was given the choice, he would choose Campbell. He wasn't in the war room when Gibbs made the decision to move up and draft Jason and he is just having to deal with it now. Does Saunders think Jason is the type of QB to lead his offense? If Gibbs is gone, does Saunders try to go get somebody else to run it?
....and that is why you need a GM....

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 02:46 PM
....and that is why you need a GM....

You're more likely to get a table dance from Gregg Williams than a GM making decisions in DC.

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 02:47 PM
You're more likely to get a table dance from Gregg Williams than a GM making decisions in DC.
Yeah, I know. And by the way, I would definitely pass on that first option. Thanks Gregg, but no thanks. You're not my type.

firehawk157
12-07-2007, 03:09 PM
So NOW we know how Williams got that contract...

CNYSkinFan
12-07-2007, 03:14 PM
Why no snarkiness towards Saunders/....Saunders admitted to calling different plays with Collins in there. This is on Saunders as much as Gibbs. I have often said Saunders is to blame for some oif this and the proof is in theis blog. Saunders has a case of manlove not seen since the exit of Lindsey and Holdman

skinsfan45
12-07-2007, 03:28 PM
How about we tell Gibbs that the birth certificate was a fake, and he was born in 1975?
since Gibbs is not completely familiar with all the rules and regs, lets just tell him that the rules require him to step aside as head coach at age 67 and become the new___________________ (u fill in the blank)

AGibbsGirl
12-07-2007, 03:41 PM
Why no snarkiness towards Saunders/....Saunders admitted to calling different plays with Collins in there. This is on Saunders as much as Gibbs. I have often said Saunders is to blame for some oif this and the proof is in theis blog. Saunders has a case of manlove not seen since the exit of Lindsey and Holdman

I was plenty snarky about Saunders...don't I count? :D

CNYSkinFan
12-07-2007, 03:42 PM
Man that is pretty telling isn't it? Brings up a lot of what ifs doesn't it?

I think we all believe Jason has a lot more potential then what is being showed. I still don't understand how our first half passing game differs so dramatically from our second half...I mean how many games did we see Cooley racking it up in 1-2 and then nothing in 3-4?

I've never liked Saunders and this isn't helping....
ooops...of course you count AGG...ok you and me anyone else in on the Saunders SNarkiness bandwagon lol

WarEagle
12-07-2007, 04:17 PM
Coach and Saunders have never done backflips over Jason. They dragged their feet starting him even when Brunny was in his tailspin and the season was pretty much over. Maybe Coach assumed Jason was a running QB and then developed buyer's remorse when he found out otherwise.

chris
12-07-2007, 05:36 PM
there is no doubt that JC gives us the best chance to win.He is the future of this team.I still think he is only a few years away from being one of the best QB's in the N.F.L. but the kid only has like 20 starts.There is a reason they have taking it so slow with him.Young QB's make alot of mistakes.It takes time to become a great QB.I know gibbs and saunders are both way to conservitive but it is so easy to mess up a young qb.Of course gibbs and saunders like collins better becouse even though he cant make half the plays jc can they still think jc will make more mistakes when running the full offince.As good as jason has been he still has a long way to go.He still has to earn there trust and stop making turnovers in key parts of the games.I still think jason should be out starting qb.He is alot better then collins.I'm just saying I understand why they having taking it slow with him.

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 06:28 PM
Yeah, I know. And by the way, I would definitely pass on that first option. Thanks Gregg, but no thanks. You're not my type.

What if he wears the dark socks and wingtips?


Is that barfing I hear?

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 07:05 PM
What if he wears the dark socks and wingtips?


Is that barfing I hear?

Yeah. And that is my dinner I see. Again.

As always, thanks.

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 07:11 PM
Yeah. And that is my dinner I see. Again.

As always, thanks.

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dbmalmud/Dude.jpg

The Dude tries to help.

(Man...if I was better at photoshop...)

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 07:15 PM
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dbmalmud/Dude.jpg

The Dude tries to help.

(Man...if I was better at photoshop...)
...you would probably be in prison now....

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 07:17 PM
...you would probably be in prison now....

You know, if they didn't imprison me for the fun at that BBQ fundraiser in Charleston in the 06 spring, they won't for anything photoshop related.

SpicyMcHaggis
12-07-2007, 07:19 PM
You know, if they didn't imprison me for the fun at that BBQ fundraiser in Charleston in the 06 spring, they won't for anything photoshop related.

Lol..that's probably very true...

Well, I'm off to sleep, where images of GW in various "outfits" will certianly haunt my dreams.

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 07:23 PM
Lol..that's probably very true...

Well, I'm off to sleep, where images of GW in various "outfits" will certianly haunt my dreams.

I would post another picture, but its impossible to find a picture of a table dance that would be allowed here(shocker, I know) lol.

CarMike
12-07-2007, 07:30 PM
We took the chains off of Campbell in two games in the 4th quarter. And both games he drove the team down the field only to throw two INTs to lose the game.

They tried it with Campbell. You can't deny that. Should have they tried it earlier in the year? Of course. But lets not pretend they didn't try with Campbell.

Campbell is the man. He'll get there. He'll learn from those mistakes.

I swear, if they turn this into another QB controversy, i'll go insane.

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 07:33 PM
We took the chains off of Campbell in two games in the 4th quarter. And both games he drove the team down the field only to throw two INTs to lose the game.

They tried it with Campbell. You can't deny that. Should have they tried it earlier in the year? Of course. But lets not pretend they didn't try with Campbell.

Campbell is the man. He'll get there. He'll learn from those mistakes.

I swear, if they turn this into another QB controversy, i'll go insane.

based on the plays we saw last night, it doesn't look like they took most of the chains off of Campbell. Collins was running plays we haven't seen this year with Campbell at the helm(most prominent being the deep slant 3rd to ARE, the deep cross with Moss running a post to Cooley, and the naked circle screen to Betts that went for the final TD).

hail2skins
12-07-2007, 07:36 PM
the reigns had been taken off...campbell just didnt make the plays...early in the season it was conservative...and at times it still was conservative last night...campbell just didn't make the plays at the end of games thats it (don't put me in the arena with campbell haters, dont get me wrong i love the kid)The reigns had not been taken completely off.

hail2skins
12-07-2007, 07:43 PM
We took the chains off of Campbell in two games in the 4th quarter. And both games he drove the team down the field only to throw two INTs to lose the game.

They tried it with Campbell. You can't deny that. Should have they tried it earlier in the year? Of course. But lets not pretend they didn't try with Campbell.

Campbell is the man. He'll get there. He'll learn from those mistakes.

I swear, if they turn this into another QB controversy, i'll go insane.Those were situations where we were trailing and had to score to win. Very different from doing it when already leading as Collins did yesterday

jtovb2005
12-07-2007, 07:43 PM
I don't know, this seems much about nothing. JC is hurt and won't be back this year, Collins is the QB for 3 more games and hopefully the playoffs. Next year JC will be back starting, no question. He has proven he can move the ball and has tools that lasted more games than all our "new" QB's over the past 10-15 years.

That does not take away from his end of game interceptions and game fumbles. You can't really overlook those? That said he has plenty of company in loosing those games from the big money guys to the coaches. JC, when he is back, has the starting job. There is no QB controversy.

CarMike
12-07-2007, 07:45 PM
based on the plays we saw last night, it doesn't look like they took most of the chains off of Campbell. Collins was running plays we haven't seen this year with Campbell at the helm(most prominent being the deep slant 3rd to ARE, the deep cross with Moss running a post to Cooley, and the naked circle screen to Betts that went for the final TD).

I absolutely agree they ran different plays with Collins. But that's not the same as "keeping the chains on Campbell". They let Campbell throw the ball on 1st and 2nd downs in those games. Lets not forget, Campbell had back to back 300 yard games. Or close to it.

And let me make one thing clear. I do not want Collins as our starter over Jason. That would be insanely crazy. Even if that means that Collins plays like crap down the stretch and we lose all 3 games.

Campbell is the future.

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 07:51 PM
I absolutely agree they ran different plays with Collins. But that's not the same as "keeping the chains on Campbell". They let Campbell throw the ball on 1st and 2nd downs in those games. Lets not forget, Campbell had back to back 300 yard games. Or close to it.

I think that if you hold back plays from Campbell in any way, its chains one way or another. Especially with his love of throwing to Cooley and ARE, two of those plays I mention should be bread/butter plays for JC.

And let me make one thing clear. I do not want Collins as our starter over Jason. That would be insanely crazy. Even if that means that Collins plays like crap down the stretch and we lose all 3 games.

Campbell is the future.

No, I understood that in your post(that you aren't advocating Collins), JC is the future, and there's just no excuse for Gibbs/Saunders to not let him have the whole playbook.

CarMike
12-07-2007, 07:53 PM
Those were situations where we were trailing and had to score to win. Very different from doing it when already leading as Collins did yesterday

that's another good point Mike. But people keep on wanting to act like Gibbs/Saunders hasn't taken off the chains on Campbell. When they have. I don't know why any is surprised with what happened last night. The first tiff between Gibbs and Saunders was over who should be starting at QB. Gibbs wanted Brunell and Saunders wanted Collins. Jason was an after thought.

CarMike
12-07-2007, 07:56 PM
I think that if you hold back plays from Campbell in any way, its chains one way or another. Especially with his love of throwing to Cooley and ARE, two of those plays I mention should be bread/butter plays for JC.
Couldn't agree more. Except I think Gibbs/Saunders have given Jason some leeway. Does he need more? Definitely. But for what ever reason, they don't have 100% confidence in Jason. With another off season, I hope they will by next year.

redskin_rich
12-07-2007, 08:03 PM
I don't think the coaches have total confidence that Campbell can pull off all those plays. Let's face it, they are practicing these plays, even if they haven't been using them. I think that is obvious by how well Betts, Cooley, and everyone else executed them. We don't see what happens in practice, only what happens in games.

I will say this, the biggest difference was how quickly Collins made his reads and got the ball out. When Campbell gets more comfortable and can play on instincts, rather than thinking so much, he should be able to play as well and better, because he simply brings more to the table talent and ability-wise.

The coaches need to work on Campbell's throwing motion though. It needs to be shorter, tighter and faster. But that will have to take place in the off season. You simply can't work on a QB's mechanics during the season.

CarMike
12-07-2007, 08:16 PM
I agree about Jasons mechanics. It takes so long for him to get rid of the ball. Or that's how it seems. I really liked the play they ran for the final TD. Hadn't seen that all year.

akhhorus
12-07-2007, 08:28 PM
I agree about Jasons mechanics. It takes so long for him to get rid of the ball. Or that's how it seems. I really liked the play they ran for the final TD. Hadn't seen that all year.

Well, he has played with that tighter delivery, and his deep ball was noticeably better. I think he falls into his old habit when in trouble(which is natural).

hail2skins
12-07-2007, 08:40 PM
I don't think the coaches have total confidence that Campbell can pull off all those plays. Let's face it, they are practicing these plays, even if they haven't been using them. I think that is obvious by how well Betts, Cooley, and everyone else executed them. We don't see what happens in practice, only what happens in games.

I will say this, the biggest difference was how quickly Collins made his reads and got the ball out. When Campbell gets more comfortable and can play on instincts, rather than thinking so much, he should be able to play as well and better, because he simply brings more to the table talent and ability-wise.

The coaches need to work on Campbell's throwing motion though. It needs to be shorter, tighter and faster. But that will have to take place in the off season. You simply can't work on a QB's mechanics during the season.The thing that got me about Collins is how slow his passes are. I thought several were going to be intercepted yesterday because it took so long for the ball to get there.

I think Campbell can handle the plays if given the opportunity. We all know Saunders is more comfortable with Collins because he knows the playbook but there is a reason he's only been a backup in the league.

redskin_rich
12-07-2007, 09:13 PM
The thing that got me about Collins is how slow his passes are. I thought several were going to be intercepted yesterday because it took so long for the ball to get there.

I think Campbell can handle the plays if given the opportunity. We all know Saunders is more comfortable with Collins because he knows the playbook but there is a reason he's only been a backup in the league.
No doubt about it, Collins has a weak arm and I'm sure when we play the Giants next week, they will scheme to exploit that fact. Hopefully, in turn, our coaches will scheme to counter what the Giants do. I expect the Giants to bring 8 and 9 guys up close and dare Collins to go deep, even on passing downs.

My point is that Collins could make his reads, go through his progressions and get the ball out much quicker and that made a difference, especially with the poor pass protection we have have had this year. If and when Campbell can do the same, he will be a complete QB and much better than Collins could ever dream to have been. Like I also said though, Campbell still needs to shorten his throwing motion. His windup cost valuable milliseconds that we can't usually afford him right now.

skinsfan36
12-07-2007, 09:54 PM
this is irritating next year i expect the reigns off of campbell but then again gibbs may not be here

frankez99
12-08-2007, 12:29 AM
Let's hope the Bears schemed all week against Collins and couldn't stop him because he was unstoppable...."Romo" like...

alright, enough kidding.

But hey, with all the doom-and-gloom in Redskin land, and with all the recent close losses....I'm going to enjoy the Collins performance. Let's all face it....it was totally unexpected.

JC is the future...I love him and believe that he has unlimited potential....but as of now he is out for a few weeks. Let's not harp on the weaknesses of TC, but revel in the fact that we freakin' actually won a game and have a fighters chance against the Giants. On to bigger and better things.......

Hail to my beloved Redskins and to my wonderful friends at hR.com.

SpicyMcHaggis
12-08-2007, 03:10 AM
Couldn't agree more. Except I think Gibbs/Saunders have given Jason some leeway. Does he need more? Definitely. But for what ever reason, they don't have 100% confidence in Jason. With another off season, I hope they will by next year.

I don't think the coaches have total confidence that Campbell can pull off all those plays. Let's face it, they are practicing these plays, even if they haven't been using them. I think that is obvious by how well Betts, Cooley, and everyone else executed them. We don't see what happens in practice, only what happens in games.

I will say this, the biggest difference was how quickly Collins made his reads and got the ball out. When Campbell gets more comfortable and can play on instincts, rather than thinking so much, he should be able to play as well and better, because he simply brings more to the table talent and ability-wise.

The coaches need to work on Campbell's throwing motion though. It needs to be shorter, tighter and faster. But that will have to take place in the off season. You simply can't work on a QB's mechanics during the season.
1)What does this say about the coaches? Campbell has just (likely) finished his THIRD year as a pro. Exacfly how long does it take our coahces to develop confidence in a player?
2)What does this say about Campbell? How long will it take him to gain the coaches' confidence?

Jon Creveling
12-08-2007, 08:52 AM
1)What does this say about the coaches? Campbell has just (likely) finished his THIRD year as a pro. Exacfly how long does it take our coahces to develop confidence in a player?
2)What does this say about Campbell? How long will it take him to gain the coaches' confidence?

Have been getting the vibe that the coaches don't trust the players and vice-versa,, but here's the thing it started much earlier than the 4 game skid. Sometimes you have to watch the Skins with your heart out of it, watch them as if you were say a Chiefs fan. Realy watch how they operate, what and how they go about things, facial expressions and such, take in everything. I hate excuses above all, and this may come off as a semi-excuse,,,,,but I realy have the vibe that J.C. has been the victim of many mixed messages from both JG & AS. He probably has AS in one ear telling him to let loose and at the same time has JG whispering "be careful ! A young/ non cocky kid, he then starts to doubt himself, thus spreading yet more doubt from above! (coaching). Have had this feeling since the game in Phil. and it's not just with Jason, I think it's all over the team these mixed messages. ps I can only speak for myself but I have more confidence in the KID Q.B. than the HOF coach! Can't help but think also that somewhere out there there are coaches saying that they could have done so much more with this roster than these guys. Best of Luck to Jason on his recovery! All Hail Todd/Jeff/ Collins! I won't be as bold as others coming up with Tom as his middle name:)

Hr fan
12-08-2007, 09:42 AM
EXACTLY. It is unfortunately becoming more and more evident by the minute that the problems with this team start with our head coach. I don't see how anything substantial can improve without us making a change there.

Agree. The losses, many of them, are directly attributable to Gibbs/Saunders not trusting JC. How can he grow, or for that matter retain his confidence, when the coaches so clearly indicate that they don't trust him?

Jon Creveling
12-10-2007, 07:29 AM
Agree. How can he grow, or for that matter retain his confidence, when the coaches so clearly indicate that they don't trust him?

"repair is by replacement!", old German proverb, and I don't mean the kid-q.b.! Am amazed that the 'RAM is Right crowd' is not out in full force pointing to JC becoming the next PR!:) And there may be a little truth in that?!?:) You know guys it's funny, I reread my own post above and did not notice something I posted until a day later. The part about Jason not coming off as cocky, does anyone agree or not agree (please state your case!), any way. The kid reminds me of the young Theismann, remember the brash/cocky/ know it all that was Joey T? I can remember hating Theismann with all the mistakes and such when he first started, all that talk every time he effed up about the Theismann for Heisman crap from announcers, (I think I just missed Billy too much) but I was wondering if maybe the difference between the young J.T. and J.C. is that no matter what they said or thought about Joe he just fought through it himself, while J.C. may need a pat on the back, or in the least talked to in the right manner. I dunno, but can't shake the feeling that as much as the players themselves screwed up the season and put themselves behind the 8-ball more, much more blame is higher up.

Hr fan
12-10-2007, 08:17 AM
"repair is by replacement!", old German proverb, and I don't mean the kid-q.b.! Am amazed that the 'RAM is Right crowd' is not out in full force pointing to JC becoming the next PR!:) And there may be a little truth in that?!?:) You know guys it's funny, I reread my own post above and did not notice something I posted until a day later. The part about Jason not coming off as cocky, does anyone agree or not agree (please state your case!), any way. The kid reminds me of the young Theismann, remember the brash/cocky/ know it all that was Joey T? I can remember hating Theismann with all the mistakes and such when he first started, all that talk every time he effed up about the Theismann for Heisman crap from announcers, (I think I just missed Billy too much) but I was wondering if maybe the difference between the young J.T. and J.C. is that no matter what they said or thought about Joe he just fought through it himself, while J.C. may need a pat on the back, or in the least talked to in the right manner. I dunno, but can't shake the feeling that as much as the players themselves screwed up the season and put themselves behind the 8-ball more, much more blame is higher up.

I agree with you. Gibbs has an opinion of what inexperience constitutes and limits the playbook accordingly. Unfortunately this is a stereotype, and can not fit all cases. In JC's case it means an inferior QB can look superior because, for one thing, the D faced had not seen the plays called. The reason for a 700 page playbook is to show Ds something new each week. With JC this hasn't happened. With Collins it did and will. This is the coaches "protecting" an inexperienced QB to the point of making him fail.

chas3
12-10-2007, 08:27 AM
with jason everything hinges on the score at halftime. if we are ahead, the offense makes no adjustments except to play it safe and sit on the lead and pray that the defense can hold off the other team. it doesnt matter if we are ahead by 1 point or 30 points. i guess someone is extremely worried that jason is going to make a mistake and get gun shy. of course, this means jason needs to play twice as many games to get the experience he needs.

the offense has been much better in the second half when we go in behind during halftime. apparently this doesnt trigger the sit on the lead portion of the playbook.

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 08:43 AM
I just noticed that Collins is starting this game almost 10 years to the day of his last start.

His last Start was December 14, 1997 this start he is making on December 16, 2007.

Other things that happened in 1997:

Bill Clinton was just starting his second term
OJ Simpson was in court for the civil suit (the more things change....)
Tony Blair is appointed Prime Minister of Britain
Hong Kong goes back to Chinese rule
Gianni-Versace is murdered (Spicy is original suspect)
Mother Theresa & Princess Diana both die
The Cassini-Huygens probe was launched to Saturn, it has been there for over 2 years

So what I am trying to say is....DAMN that is a long time.

SpicyMcHaggis
12-10-2007, 09:12 AM
I just noticed that Collins is starting this game almost 10 years to the day of his last start.

His last Start was December 14, 1997 this start he is making on December 16, 2007.

Other things that happened in 1997:

Bill Clinton was just starting his second term
OJ Simpson was in court for the civil suit (the more things change....)
Tony Blair is appointed Prime Minister of Britain
Hong Kong goes back to Chinese rule
Gianni-Versace is murdered (Spicy is original suspect)
Mother Theresa & Princess Diana both die
The Cassini-Huygens probe was launched to Saturn, it has been there for over 2 years

So what I am trying to say is....DAMN that is a long time.
My alibi was watertight.

hessy36
12-10-2007, 09:15 AM
Agree. The losses, many of them, are directly attributable to Gibbs/Saunders not trusting JC. How can he grow, or for that matter retain his confidence, when the coaches so clearly indicate that they don't trust him?

UM, they dont' trust him FOR A REASON! .... They didn't just wake up one day and not trust him. He isn't a perfect QB, and he makes a lot of mistakes. Hopefully that will change as he gets more and more experience.

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 09:16 AM
My alibi was watertight.

Ummm...errrr....Gonna let that softball pass lol.

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 09:17 AM
UM, they dont' trust him FOR A REASON! .... They didn't just wake up one day and not trust him. He isn't a perfect QB, and he makes a lot of mistakes. Hopefully that will change as he gets more and more experience.

Except that every time they open things up for him a little bit, Campbell looks significantly much better. But feel free to continue to believe that Cowboys' fan trolling. Gibbs/Sanders didn't trust him before he got the fumbles.

SpicyMcHaggis
12-10-2007, 09:24 AM
Except that every time they open things up for him a little bit, Campbell looks significantly much better. But feel free to continue to believe that Cowboys' fan trolling. Gibbs/Sanders didn't trust him before he got the fumbles.
When your base set inside the oppontent's 30 yard line is the jumbo formation, it's kinda hard to put up Marino-like numbers.

hessy36
12-10-2007, 09:28 AM
Cowboys' fan trolling. Gibbs/Sanders didn't trust him before he got the fumbles.

Cowboys fan trolling??... excuse me?

I just see what I see and when I watch JC he makes a lot of mistakes. I do hope with time that WILL change, but I'm not going to put this all on our coaches. Players HAVE to execute. It's up to them once the play is called. JC is good in the middle of the field... but not even close to good in the Redzone.

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 09:28 AM
When your base set inside the oppontent's 30 yard line is the jumbo formation, it's kinda hard to put up Marino-like numbers.

And when you have a defense that would have trouble stopping 11 crippled nuns all with the flu(and an Oline that would struggle to stop a blitz of turtles), you have to force a ton of throws and will get sacked a lot.

RedskinRyan
12-10-2007, 09:29 AM
I think what they are basically trying to say is, Todd Collins doesn't throw picks late in the game.

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 09:31 AM
Cowboys fan trolling??... excuse me?

If you "read" what I wrote, I didn't call you a Cowboys fan or a troll. I'm referring to this thread. (http://hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=43876) And IcantthinkofanoriginaljokeB's moronic argument.

I just see what I see and when I watch JC he makes a lot of mistakes. I do hope with time that WILL change, but I'm not going to put this all on our coaches. Players HAVE to execute. It's up to them once the play is called. JC is good in the middle of the field... but not even close to good in the Redzone.

To some extent yes, but the coaches have to allow the players all the chance to execute plays. I don't think anyone can say that Gibbs/Saunders have done that for Campbell this year. Campbell's biggest problem-and what's lead to a majority of his turnovers-recently has been trying to force plays to make up for the Defense's flaws.

SpicyMcHaggis
12-10-2007, 09:31 AM
I think what they are basically trying to say is, Todd Collins doesn't throw picks late in the game.

That's because Todd Collins has sat on the bench late in the game for the past 10 years.

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 09:32 AM
I think what they are basically trying to say is, Todd Collins doesn't throw picks late in the game.
based on a sub set of one game in the last 10 years?

Please get back to me after the season on Todd the wonderkind Collins. He has not been in games that mattered since 1997...1997!!!!!!

SpicyMcHaggis
12-10-2007, 09:33 AM
based on a sub set of one game in the last 10 years?

Please get back to me after the season on Todd the wonderkind Collins. He has not been in games that mattered since 1997...1997!!!!!!
To further reinforce this statement, consider this..the PS2 came out 2 years AFTER Collins' last start.

hessy36
12-10-2007, 09:34 AM
I think what they are basically trying to say is, Todd Collins doesn't throw picks late in the game.


.... so far! I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 09:35 AM
I think what they are basically trying to say is, Todd Collins doesn't throw picks late in the game.

When he played in the past, he did. He threw 5 ints(and 3 fumbles) in the 4th quarter in his last significant time played(1997). 3 of them within 2 minutes of the end of the game.

hessy36
12-10-2007, 09:37 AM
If you "read" what I wrote, I didn't call you a Cowboys fan or a troll. I'm referring to this thread. (http://hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=43876) And IcantthinkofanoriginaljokeB's moronic argument.



To some extent yes, but the coaches have to allow the players all the chance to execute plays. I don't think anyone can say that Gibbs/Saunders have done that for Campbell this year. Campbell's biggest problem-and what's lead to a majority of his turnovers-recently has been trying to force plays to make up for the Defense's flaws.

I wish every Skin got this much love when they blow games for us on a regular basis....

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 09:39 AM
To further reinforce this statement, consider this..the PS2 came out 2 years AFTER Collins' last start.
Ironically "Tubthumping" by Chumbawamba was the #1 song during Collins last start. It is the theme ofn his NFL careeer I guess.

Other notable #1 songs in 1997: "Fly" by Sugar Ray, "Mo Money Mo Problems" Notorious BIG, "I'll Be mIssing You" Puff Daddy, "Bitch" meredith Brooks, "Say You'll Be there" & "Wannabe" Spice girls (again more things change....),

and who could forget "mmmmbop" by Hanson

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 09:40 AM
I wish every Skin got this much love when they blow games for us on a regular basis....

Thanks for not bothering to think of a coherent response. Damn you Jason Campbell for calling those 2 timeouts against Buffalo or giving up that long pass to set up Buffalo's FG attempt! Or telling Gregg Williams that TO didn't need to be covered! Or constantly missing Brian Westbrook when he talked Williams into letting him play LB.

Seriously, the only game you can say that about is Tampa. Dallas, Buffalo, Philly: no way.

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 09:46 AM
ok this has gotten to be too much fun:

Top Movies from 1997:

Titanic
Men In Black
The Lost World: Jurassic Park
Liar Liar
Air Force One
As Good as It Gets
Good Will Hunting
My Best friend's Wedding
Tomorrow Never Dies
Face/Off

this brings back memories of the best acceptance speach of an oscar ever when Jack Nicholson quipped "He was getting a sinking feeling all night long"....Classic

SpicyMcHaggis
12-10-2007, 09:47 AM
Ironically "Tubthumping" by Chumbawamba was the #1 song during Collins last start. It is the theme ofn his NFL careeer I guess.

Other notable #1 songs in 1997: "Fly" by Sugar Ray, "Mo Money Mo Problems" Notorious BIG, "I'll Be mIssing You" Puff Daddy, "Bitch" meredith Brooks, "Say You'll Be there" & "Wannabe" Spice girls (again more things change....),

and who could forget "mmmmbop" by Hanson
Obviously 1997 was a catastrophic year for music fans.

But it was the same for Buffalo Bills fans as well, who saw Todd Collins "lead" their team to a 5-9 record while posting up a 69.5 QB rating.

10 years later, he apparently is our saviour.

firehawk157
12-10-2007, 09:48 AM
I guess kickers win/lose more games than anybody else in the league according to this idea (the last player to make/give up a big play, cost or won the game). The fact is, everybody either made or gave up plays to put us in whatever position we are in, so it's not just one player's fault or credit.

hessy36
12-10-2007, 09:49 AM
Thanks for not bothering to think of a coherent response. .

I'm tired of arguing with you. THAT is why you got that response. You sir, are not the "know it all" you think you are and I would appreciate it if you kept your insults to yourself. I am allowed to have an opinion, post on this board, and while doing so not have my intelligence questioned every time I donít respond the way YOU think I should!

firehawk157
12-10-2007, 09:49 AM
Obviously 1997 was a catastrophic year for music fans.

But it was the same for Buffalo Bills fans as well, who saw Todd Collins "lead" their team to a 5-9 record while posting up a 69.5 QB rating.

10 years later, he apparently is our saviour.
To be fair though, this is the first real action Collins has seen inside of Saunders' system.

dj_stouty
12-10-2007, 09:59 AM
Ironically "Tubthumping" by Chumbawamba was the #1 song during Collins last start. It is the theme ofn his NFL careeer I guess.

Other notable #1 songs in 1997: "Fly" by Sugar Ray, "Mo Money Mo Problems" Notorious BIG, "I'll Be mIssing You" Puff Daddy, "Bitch" meredith Brooks, "Say You'll Be there" & "Wannabe" Spice girls (again more things change....),

and who could forget "mmmmbop" by Hanson

I was a senior in college at the time; I recall hordes of college girls going stupid crazy for that damn "Tubthumping" song. One of the worst songs in history, although that didn't stop us from playing it during our fraternity parties. lol

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 10:18 AM
I'm tired of arguing with you. THAT is why you got that response. You sir, are not the "know it all" you think you are and I would appreciate it if you kept your insults to yourself. I am allowed to have an opinion, post on this board, and while doing so not have my intelligence questioned every time I donít respond the way YOU think I should!

I must have missed when I ever said your opinion needs to be mine. You have your opinion on Campbell, fine. Youve posted it many times. I have an equal right to point out flaws in your argument(and brought up some good points, which you ignore), and your inability to discuss this issue is ridiculous. I haven't insulted you once in this thread, so maybe you should spend more time "discussing the issue"(since this is a discussion board) and less time trying to be a martyr/victim. Its not a difficult issue to discuss unless you just want to post your opinion and can't brook anyone questioning you.

hessy36
12-10-2007, 10:25 AM
I must have missed when I ever said your opinion needs to be mine. You have your opinion on Campbell, fine. Youve posted it many times. I have an equal right to point out flaws in your argument(and brought up some good points, which you ignore), and your inability to discuss this issue is ridiculous. I haven't insulted you once in this thread, so maybe you should spend more time "discussing the issue"(since this is a discussion board) and less time trying to be a martyr/victim. Its not a difficult issue to discuss unless you just want to post your opinion and can't brook anyone questioning you.

Unreal. :sleeping:

firehawk157
12-10-2007, 10:27 AM
Unreal. :sleeping:
Much like brandon lloyd's rapping skillz...

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 10:28 AM
Obviously 1997 was a catastrophic year for music fans.

But it was the same for Buffalo Bills fans as well, who saw Todd Collins "lead" their team to a 5-9 record while posting up a 69.5 QB rating.

10 years later, he apparently is our saviour.
Movies were not much better. 7 of the top 10 were pure crap. Air Force one was mildly good. But As good As It Gets and Good Will Hunting were incredible movies and almost makes up for that crapfest Titanic

shally
12-10-2007, 10:32 AM
Much like brandon lloyd's rapping skillz...


or his receiving skills...

SpicyMcHaggis
12-10-2007, 10:36 AM
Movies were not much better. 7 of the top 10 were pure crap. Air Force one was mildly good. But As good As It Gets and Good Will Hunting were incredible movies and almost makes up for that crapfest Titanic
Which I proud myself on never having seen.

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 10:36 AM
Unreal. :sleeping:

Its always hilarious when you point out something about someone, and then in response they do the exact thing you accuse them of.

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 10:40 AM
Which I proud myself on never having seen.
I was a single Dad to an 8 year old girl at the time....I had no choice

SkinsGuru
12-10-2007, 10:41 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801372.html

Mike Wise talked to Dick Vermeil and Vermeil gave his thoughts on Todd Collins and tries to explain why the "hand cufs" have not been taken off of Jason Campbell yet. Kind of interesting article . . . you thoughts . . .

But now Saunders has his quarterback, the player he specifically brought with him from Kansas City to help communicate the design and schemes of that voluminous playbook -- the 750-page tome that has confounded Mark Brunell, Campbell and a proud and stubborn team that still wonders why the wheel had to be reinvented after going to the playoffs in 2005.


Collins's immediate job is to beat the Giants in New Jersey, the Vikings in Minnesota and Dallas at FedEx Field so he can salvage what's left of this bad dream of a season. But abstractly, his performance will essentially be a referendum on Saunders's true value to Gibbs as an offensive coordinator.

Lost in the debate over whether the offense is Gibbs's or Saunders's is the singular goal of developing Campbell into a consistent winner. And if that is a franchise's stated objective, there is no way Saunders's entire arsenal was ever going to be unveiled this season or last.

"It was too much for Campbell or any young quarterback," Vermeil said. "The volume is so great. Joe Gibbs and Al Saunders did the right thing -- restrict the package to fit his maturity. They aren't running the entire offense right now. Watch. At the start of next season, Jason will be much better than he is now because he'll get more reps in this offense."

hessy36
12-10-2007, 10:42 AM
Its always hilarious when you point out about someone, and then in response they do the exact thing you accuse them of.


You are making me cry.... :cry:


.... :banhim: (joke) ha ha ha!!

shally
12-10-2007, 10:43 AM
I was a single Dad to an 8 year old girl at the time....I had no choice


could be worse.. i had to take my daughters to see tiffany, the new kids on the block and debbie gibson !! now THAT is fatherly love..LOL

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 10:48 AM
could be worse.. i had to take my daughters to see tiffany, the new kids on the block and debbie gibson !! now THAT is fatherly love..LOL
Luckily none of those concerts for me but to this day my daughter tries to convince me there was a difference between backstreet Boys and NSync (she was a backstreet boy fan and for some reason hated NSync, though they were the same damn crappy thing to my ears.)

shally
12-10-2007, 10:53 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801372.html

Mike Wise talked to Dick Vermeil and Vermeil gave his thoughts on Todd Collins and tries to explain why the "hand cufs" have not been taken off of Jason Campbell yet. Kind of interesting article . . . you thoughts . . .

i like the part about JC being a better qb next year.. he will continue to study and develop in the offseason

but i am not so sure about the ability of collins to run the table.. let's face it, he was less than stellar in preseason when he was in.. sure, they were not using the full offense but he is still the same guy.. let's see what he can do at the wheel.. if he runs the table THEN i will be a believer

shally
12-10-2007, 10:54 AM
Luckily none of those concerts for me but to this day my daughter tries to convince me there was a difference between backstreet Boys and NSync (she was a backstreet boy fan and for some reason hated NSync, though they were the same damn crappy thing to my ears.)

how bad were the new kids ? they didnt even have a band, and used a boom box ! that one was agony.. at least tiffany and debbie could sing a little..

hessy36
12-10-2007, 10:57 AM
how bad were the new kids ? they didnt even have a band, and used a boom box ! that one was agony.. at least tiffany and debbie could sing a little..

You guys really are old!! ... LOL... :gwink:

Keino
12-10-2007, 10:58 AM
could be worse.. i had to take my daughters to see tiffany, the new kids on the block and debbie gibson !! now THAT is fatherly love..LOL

LMAO -

I think I would let my kids go to that one alone. The only men at that concert were gay.

shally
12-10-2007, 11:07 AM
LMAO -

I think I would let my kids go to that one alone. The only men at that concert were gay.

or wearing hearing protectors... on top of it all, it was loud as hell

now, the madonna concert, that was something else.. i got seriously ogled.. probably the only time in my life i was the object of depersonalization...

shally
12-10-2007, 11:08 AM
You guys really are old!! ... LOL... :gwink:


yes.. i have embraced my old goat status.. right now i am just happy to be alive each day...

dj_stouty
12-10-2007, 11:11 AM
Really a lose-lose situation for Al/Gibbs here...

If they "take the handcuffs off" Campbell and give him the full playbook to his disposal and he fails, then the fans will yell at them for not tailoring the scheme to the player.

If they keep bringing Campbell slowly into the playbook, and he fails, then the fans will yell at them for not opening up the entire playbook to him..or not "taking off his handcuffs".

I've always been a big proponent of slowly developing a QB, so giving Campbell a little bit at a time suits me fine, as long as there is steady progression from both sides, QB and coach. I think Jason will be a starting QB for the Redskins for a long time, so better he master certain parts of the scheme in increments than to have him only only comprehend 50-60% of it all at once and be confused.

When Jason gets elected to his 3rd Pro Bowl, I'll bump this thread and we can give Gibbs/Al some credit for doing it the right way.

SkinsGuru
12-10-2007, 11:12 AM
i like the part about JC being a better qb next year.. he will continue to study and develop in the offseason

but i am not so sure about the ability of collins to run the table.. let's face it, he was less than stellar in preseason when he was in.. sure, they were not using the full offense but he is still the same guy.. let's see what he can do at the wheel.. if he runs the table THEN i will be a believer

Also, everyone says this offense is about timing, with all the wide receiver injuries JC has not really been able to work on the timing part of it. Thing is the receivers that have been the most productive of late are McCardell and Caldwell and of course COOLEY, whom have been practicing. Unfortunately, Collins has not had much practice with ARE or Moss either, and with their speed, timing is more of an issue. I guess we will find out.

SkinsGuru
12-10-2007, 11:16 AM
Really a lose-lose situation for Al/Gibbs here...

If they "take the handcuffs off" Campbell and give him the full playbook to his disposal and he fails, then the fans will yell at them for not tailoring the scheme to the player.

If they keep bringing Campbell slowly into the playbook, and he fails, then the fans will yell at them for not opening up the entire playbook to him..or not "taking off his handcuffs".

I've always been a big proponent of slowly developing a QB, so giving Campbell a little bit at a time suits me fine, as long as there is steady progression from both sides, QB and coach. I think Jason will be a starting QB for the Redskins for a long time, so better he master certain parts of the scheme in increments than to have him only only comprehend 50-60% of it all at once and be confused.

When Jason gets elected to his 3rd Pro Bowl, I'll bump this thread and we can give Gibbs/Al some credit for doing it the right way.

I agree 100% . . . It's just that everyone wants the sky right now. When they have tried to let JC do it all he has thrown a big interception. I truly believe the offense is getting better . . . slowly . . . very slowly, but JC took a big leap over last year and with a healthy recieving corps next year and another off season of study and practice, will take a HUGE leap next year. Here's to hoping anyway.

Jon Creveling
12-10-2007, 11:20 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801372.html

Mike Wise talked to Dick Vermeil and Vermeil gave his thoughts on Todd Collins and tries to explain why the "hand cufs" have not been taken off of Jason Campbell yet. Kind of interesting article . . . you thoughts . . .
Sounds good, that is if you buy into it, I don't, D.V. comes off covering for a friend. Not sure why the author brings up A.S. as a possible quote "fall-guy", not to defend A.S. but that comes off to me like blaming Fabini, for not being Russ Grimm, when the guy is an near worn out, playing out of position tackle, without noting that Bugel yes-manned the whole thing and Gibbs stood around OK'ing it. The fault is on Gibbs shoulders, no one else in my book. It will be interesting to see in the next three weeks the what/how/why that Saunders operates with Collins. And what I'll find of more interest just how much more (if any) that Gibbs allows Saunders to operate!

shally
12-10-2007, 11:23 AM
Really a lose-lose situation for Al/Gibbs here...

If they "take the handcuffs off" Campbell and give him the full playbook to his disposal and he fails, then the fans will yell at them for not tailoring the scheme to the player.

If they keep bringing Campbell slowly into the playbook, and he fails, then the fans will yell at them for not opening up the entire playbook to him..or not "taking off his handcuffs".

I've always been a big proponent of slowly developing a QB, so giving Campbell a little bit at a time suits me fine, as long as there is steady progression from both sides, QB and coach. I think Jason will be a starting QB for the Redskins for a long time, so better he master certain parts of the scheme in increments than to have him only only comprehend 50-60% of it all at once and be confused.

When Jason gets elected to his 3rd Pro Bowl, I'll bump this thread and we can give Gibbs/Al some credit for doing it the right way.

definitely one way of looking at it..

on the other hand, i wonder sometimes if by denying JC more options, they have actually created a situation where he was MORE likely to fail..
when they allowed him to run the no huddle his stats improved-- but he had critical mistakes.. so i dont know what the correct answer is..

let's see what collins actually does with 3 starting gigs plus facing teams that are either going to the playoffs or fighting to go.. the history of the nfl has lots of backups who have come in and played well for a game but when defenses have time to plan for them it is a whole different story

shally
12-10-2007, 11:25 AM
Sounds good, that is if you buy into it, I don't, D.V. comes off covering for a friend. Not sure why the author brings up A.S. as a possible quote "fall-guy", not to defend A.S. but that comes off to me like blaming Fabini, for not being Russ Grimm, when the guy is an near worn out, playing out of position tackle, without noting that Bugel yes-manned the whole thing and Gibbs stood around OK'ing it. The fault is on Gibbs shoulders, no one else in my book. It will be interesting to see in the next three weeks the what/how/why that Saunders operates with Collins. And what I'll find of more interest just how much more (if any) that Gibbs allows Saunders to operate!

i think with collins in there, AS will have full control of the offense.. if he doesnt, i think he will walk at the end of the year

SpicyMcHaggis
12-10-2007, 11:33 AM
Am I the only one that is getting the strong impression that this whole Gibbs/Saunders/Campbell/Collins situation is a mess?

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 11:38 AM
Am I the only one that is getting the strong impression that this whole Gibbs/Saunders/Campbell/Collins situation is a mess?
more proof in my mind the hiring of Saunders was the biggest mistake of Gibbs II. their styles dont mesh Saunders is set in his ways and I think he really believes his system will win out wiht any qb....

Well Spurrier believed the same thing.

shally
12-10-2007, 11:39 AM
Am I the only one that is getting the strong impression that this whole Gibbs/Saunders/Campbell/Collins situation is a mess?


the ENTIRE redskin situation is a mess. it is not just confined to the qb position

shally
12-10-2007, 11:41 AM
more proof in my mind the hiring of Saunders was the biggest mistake of Gibbs II. their styles dont mesh Saunders is set in his ways and I think he really believes his system will win out wiht any qb....

Well Spurrier believed the same thing.

1. failure to emphasize the o line and d line in development (gibbs KNEW better than that)

2. trusting GW year after year (he aint no richie pettibone)

3. overrating the worth of AA, duckett and lloyd (hey, mistakes happen but so many in 1 year ?)

dj_stouty
12-10-2007, 11:42 AM
definitely one way of looking at it..

on the other hand, i wonder sometimes if by denying JC more options, they have actually created a situation where he was MORE likely to fail..
when they allowed him to run the no huddle his stats improved-- but he had critical mistakes.. so i dont know what the correct answer is..

Well, I just know this fanbase...and when things go bad, they will find a way to tell the experts how they should have done their job. After all, many of them have been playing the Madden Video Game franchise for over a decade! ;)

For me, it all comes down to the fact that we don't see what happens in practice. If Jason was mastering everything given to him, I'd be hardpressed to believe Al/Joe would hold him back. And I also don't believe he has been tanking it up in practice either; just not getting everything at once. Its awful critical of us to complain about how much of the playbook they are giving Jason, when we clearly have no idea. He could have been giving more than we know, except that he is choosing safer routes instead. Not sure if anyone of us have the answer for that...

Yes, Collins looked pretty darn good out there, but lets be honest; he throw most of his passes between the hashes to Tight Ends or short under routes to the RBs. It didn't necessarily look as "wide open" to me as many have suggested.

let's see what collins actually does with 3 starting gigs plus facing teams that are either going to the playoffs or fighting to go.. the history of the nfl has lots of backups who have come in and played well for a game but when defenses have time to plan for them it is a whole different story

I agree 100%. I could totally see the Giants properly gameplan for Collins and see him falter early. It will all come down to the O-line, IMO. If they can keep Strahan and Osi at bay, Collins will be able to make his throws. If not, he is in trouble, b/c I just don't see Collins scrambling for a series-saving 1st down like I saw Jason do this season. (and similar to what Brunell did in '05, to be honest)

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 11:46 AM
1. failure to emphasize the o line and d line in development (gibbs KNEW better than that)

2. trusting GW year after year (he aint no richie pettibone)

3. overrating the worth of AA, duckett and lloyd (hey, mistakes happen but so many in 1 year ?)
all failures to be sure, but IMO the last half of 2005 we were playing great ball and we decided to scrap the entire system and revamp it for 2006. i think that was a mistake and I thought so then. We needed small adjustments not major overhauls

shally
12-10-2007, 11:49 AM
Well, I just know this fanbase...and when things go bad, they will find a way to tell the experts how they should have done their job. After all, many of them have been playing the Madden Video Game franchise for over a decade! ;)

For me, it all comes down to the fact that we don't see what happens in practice. If Jason was mastering everything given to him, I'd be hardpressed to believe Al/Joe would hold him back. And I also don't believe he has been tanking it up in practice either; just not getting everything at once. Its awful critical of us to complain about how much of the playbook they are giving Jason, when we clearly have no idea. He could have been giving more than we know, except that he is choosing safer routes instead. Not sure if anyone of us have the answer for that...

Yes, Collins looked pretty darn good out there, but lets be honest; he throw most of his passes between the hashes to Tight Ends or short under routes to the RBs. It didn't necessarily look as "wide open" to me as many have suggested.



I agree 100%. I could totally see the Giants properly gameplan for Collins and see him falter early. It will all come down to the O-line, IMO. If they can keep Strahan and Osi at bay, Collins will be able to make his throws. If not, he is in trouble, b/c I just don't see Collins scrambling for a series-saving 1st down like I saw Jason do this season. (and similar to what Brunell did in '05, to be honest)

i dont think there is any question that collins has better "touch" on his passes.. some of them barely get there.. but he really does like to use the middle of the field and i love that.

and throwing to tight ends and backs is exactly the way to frustrate aggressive defenses

i expect the skins to use a lot of max protect against the giants and trust collins to be able to fit it in somewhere with 3 receiver patterns

and portis and betts (as a receiver) need to have the best 3 game stretch of their careers...

shally
12-10-2007, 11:52 AM
all failures to be sure, but IMO the last half of 2005 we were playing great ball and we decided to scrap the entire system and revamp it for 2006. i think that was a mistake and I thought so then. We needed small adjustments not major overhauls
that is what i believed right then.. but in hindsight, i think we were a lot farther away from being a really good team.. we were hot, no question about it, but i think we were a lot closer to the sub .500 teams of 2004 and 2006 than a lot of us would prefer to admit

AND that coincided with the best stretch of def line play since gibbs has been back.. something that was totally lost on the front office and coaching staff

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 11:56 AM
that is what i believed right then.. but in hindsight, i think we were a lot farther away from being a really good team.. we were hot, no question about it, but i think we were a lot closer to the sub .500 teams of 2004 and 2006 than a lot of us would prefer to admit

AND that coincided with the best stretch of def line play since gibbs has been back.. something that was totally lost on the front office and coaching staff
I think we were pretty darn good, and with the right moves on defense (no arch, adding a de) and siginging just Randle El we would have been a different team in 2006 and fought for the nfc east.

shally
12-10-2007, 12:00 PM
I think we were pretty darn good, and with the right moves on defense (no arch, adding a de) and siginging just Randle El we would have been a different team in 2006 and fought for the nfc east.

daniels had some of barry bonds cocktail, i think.. marcus was pre injury
but i think that it was a question more of being hot than truly being good..

doesnt make any difference in the end because i would be happy if we got hot again these next 3 weeks.. nice symmetry if we got to go to seattle again dont you think ?

and gibbs was totally enthralled with brunell and would have continued to ride him into 2006 where he played at a lower level as well

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 12:05 PM
daniels had some of barry bonds cocktail, i think.. marcus was pre injury
but i think that it was a question more of being hot than truly being good..

doesnt make any difference in the end because i would be happy if we got hot again these next 3 weeks.. nice symmetry if we got to go to seattle again dont you think ?

and gibbs was totally enthralled with brunell and would have continued to ride him into 2006 where he played at a lower level as well
Brunell is one of the reasons I think the move to Saunders was a mistake. Our fortunes for 2006 were solidly hung on Brunell. Switching to an offense that did not fit him was a death knell.

But that is all the past. I just can't get out of my mind that Saunders wanted Ocllins to start when Brunell went down and has always wondered what Collins could do in his system....

I sure hope he is right and I am wrong. Because though Collins did well those balls floated for a long time, and quick corners (like in the Giants nd Vikings and Dallas0 are going to take advantage of that.

MONK_in_HOF
12-10-2007, 12:11 PM
Also, everyone says this offense is about timing, with all the wide receiver injuries JC has not really been able to work on the timing part of it. Thing is the receivers that have been the most productive of late are McCardell and Caldwell and of course COOLEY, whom have been practicing. Unfortunately, Collins has not had much practice with ARE or Moss either, and with their speed, timing is more of an issue. I guess we will find out.

According to what I have heard is that Collins really never got any reps, so I doubt he has much chemistry with the WRs/TEs.

shally
12-10-2007, 12:15 PM
Brunell is one of the reasons I think the move to Saunders was a mistake. Our fortunes for 2006 were solidly hung on Brunell. Switching to an offense that did not fit him was a death knell.

But that is all the past. I just can't get out of my mind that Saunders wanted Ocllins to start when Brunell went down and has always wondered what Collins could do in his system....

I sure hope he is right and I am wrong. Because though Collins did well those balls floated for a long time, and quick corners (like in the Giants nd Vikings and Dallas0 are going to take advantage of that.

bernie kosar had no fastball and yet he was very successfull. as long as collins is accurate and on the same page with his receivers, he will be fine..

for once i want to see if AS' system of hit the receiver right onthe break is all smoke and BS

and i think you are absolutely right that AS wanted collins to replace brunell... and what does that say about a system that someone as smart and experienced as brunell couldnt operate ???

and if most of the throws are going to the middle of the field, the corners will be less a threat than on sideline routes.
collins will have to be darn sure he isnt throwing into a zone instead of man coverage when he throws anything to the sideline

SkinsGuru
12-10-2007, 12:17 PM
According to what I have heard is that Collins really never got any reps, so I doubt he has much chemistry with the WRs/TEs.


I would think that he would have gotten some reps with the backups (mccardell, caldwell, mix, yoder) against the defense in practice, but not much at all with ARE, MOSS or COOLEY . . .

MONK_in_HOF
12-10-2007, 12:20 PM
that is what i believed right then.. but in hindsight, i think we were a lot farther away from being a really good team.. we were hot, no question about it, but i think we were a lot closer to the sub .500 teams of 2004 and 2006 than a lot of us would prefer to admit

AND that coincided with the best stretch of def line play since gibbs has been back.. something that was totally lost on the front office and coaching staff

I agree. Our defense was really good that year and our offense wasn't that good at all. We were decent at running the ball, but we had no downfield passing game at all, forcing us to run against 8-9 man fronts consistently. The offense was handicapped and antiquated IMO. The NFC was just as bad then too.

MONK_in_HOF
12-10-2007, 12:24 PM
I would think that he would have gotten some reps with the backups (mccardell, caldwell, mix, yoder) against the defense in practice, but not much at all with ARE, MOSS or COOLEY . . .

Yeah, I am not sure, but whenever I heard the topic discussed with Redskins personnel on the radio they said Campbell took ALL the reps in practice. If that is the case hopefully Collins can draw from the reps he took in preseason.

dj_stouty
12-10-2007, 12:31 PM
Yeah, I am not sure, but whenever I heard the topic discussed with Redskins personnel on the radio they said Campbell took ALL the reps in practice. If that is the case hopefully Collins can draw from the reps he took in preseason.

Its a Redskin tradition that the Starting QB take all snaps with the first-team offense.

Maybe that is why the lob to Yoder looked so pretty...they probably practiced it 100 times this year. ;)

Jon Creveling
12-10-2007, 02:34 PM
1. failure to emphasize the o line and d line in development (gibbs KNEW better than that)

2. trusting GW year after year (he aint no richie pettibone)

3. overrating the worth of AA, duckett and lloyd (hey, mistakes happen but so many in 1 year ?)

The questions you raised point to only one thing, but you must have your eyes opened to realy see the answers, as a fan you must not allow 'love of team' to outweigh what you witness!!! (a) seeing that the O-line meant so so much to this teams success his first time around , wouldn't it have been expected that in now 4 yrs this would have been a feature of this team that we could rely on? The non use of draftpicks on both lines is the highest form of flattery for an Ostrich, realy every year they bury their head in the sand and then cross their fingers that it will be ok? I'd love to know what goes on every April, the talks between Bugel and Gibbs, Williams and Blanche. I'd like to believe that both Bugel and Blanche are not what I have likened to yes-men, maybe they are just caught between a rock and a hardplace with Gibbs and Williams, but if that is in fact the case what is that telling you about both Gibbs and Williams??? Either way there is something not right. Some fans only see/say Fabs sucks and Wade bites, but overlook or better yet don't even question why that is. They don't care to see just who put them in that position. Oh yeah, the time beaten injury excuse is always there, that seems to be a favorite 'out' for many. But ask yourself this, what would have happened if the Jets weren't cheap and we didn't have Pete? Where is the younger guys that should have been trained and ready in 4! years? I do like Heyer but Ray Brown isn't around to save Bugels ass this time. On D-line Blanche I believe has done a better job than Bugel , atleast he has Monty and Golston to his credit, maybe if Wilson comes along later? To tell you the truth I'm still stunned they dumped Wynn! I thought he'd be here another 3 years with the pace they do things.(B) I can excuse this to an extent, based on 04/05 + the injury ridden D of 06 I'll find it in my kind heart to give him 07 , 08 though? That's still unanswered but we must see results these next 3 weeks:) (c) The reasoning behind Arch was crazy, maybe a great roleplayer on a stronger team yes I'll give them that, but that was not nor is a reality on this team. Basically Arch was/is a more expensive Sam Shade, nothing more, nothing less. Duckett? Here's the thing that burned my ass about that mess, Why don't you trust your own coaches that you put in place? Would think that Earnest backed Betts? So why overule Byner? If you do not trust Byner why have Byner in the 1st place? If Earnest did not back Ladell why have Ladell? Too many mixed messages, too many unclear answers, it's all very foggy, not what we should expect from a 1st class coaching staff. Just what the hell was Brandon supposed to be? Honestly some one have a straight answer on that? Anyone? Remember all the talk about A.R.E. paying well against us? that's why he was on there radar? Well at least A.R.E. is a keeper, real question was Brandon scouting report the game in DC in 05 where he caught the 50yd? TD, was that the extent of it? Then they compound mistake #1 getting him by mistake #2 not using /inspiring him. ( I know the guy was a freak in case some are wondering) if they were going to waste money on B.L., why not just try and scew on 50/50 head right? Try atleast, he was a guy that we often just dismiss, but to tell the truth maybe with the right coaching he could have got his S in order, dude was big and always healthy. did he ever miss a game? The non developement of any reciever in 4 years is also noteworthy. The kid on the Jints, Mix he looked like a prospect in preseason, but judging by this coaching staff when do we see him on field, mid 08?. Know that some of this is out there but much of the last 4 years just doesn't add up. Admit fully I have a grim view on this coaching staff so there is no pretence from my side, but you have to ask yourself Why? sometimes.

Skins3
12-10-2007, 04:15 PM
Lets see may have this backwards and some of the number maybe off but you will get the point

6 turnovers against the Bucs 4 came from campbell or maybe just 3 2ints and 1-2 fumbles all while dropping back to pass maybe running the ball would have been great in these 4 situations

Bills game safety passing from own endzone throw the ball away or maybe we should have played it safe and run the ball if we had we win that game

Cowboys game int in the 4th quarter trying to win the game

when the offense has been opened up we loose with Campbell at QB time will tell if collins can win with the offense opened up (if it is opened)

Campbell has proved he his far from clutch up untill this point

CNYSkinFan
12-10-2007, 05:15 PM
Can I make a motion to adopt Bram's "Insane Todd Collins Posse" term for those who irrationally believe Collins is the saviour of the Redskin franchise. IF we win it will be through Portis and defense...not on the wobbly arm of a QB who has not started since the breakup of the spice girls

akhhorus
12-10-2007, 05:20 PM
Can I make a motion to adopt Bram's "Insane Todd Collins Posse" term for those who irrationally believe Collins is the saviour of the Redskin franchise. IF we win it will be through Portis and defense...not on the wobbly arm of a QB who has not started since the breakup of the spice girls

The Speaker recognizes the Gentleman from New York...you have the floor lol.

shally
12-10-2007, 05:57 PM
Can I make a motion to adopt Bram's "Insane Todd Collins Posse" term for those who irrationally believe Collins is the saviour of the Redskin franchise. IF we win it will be through Portis and defense...not on the wobbly arm of a QB who has not started since the breakup of the spice girls

maybe... TC had a major part in beating the bears.. not saying he was the only reason, but it was sure fun to see that dagger to betts instead of just hoping that GW wouldn't "prevent" us into another loss.

it will take a superior effort by ALL the above to beat ny and minny on the road, back to back. anything less and we can start salivating over who the next group of free agent gems are going to be...

Jon Creveling
12-10-2007, 08:44 PM
Beware Jints fans Todd' the cicada 'Collins is coming to town! I guess in a way the Giants may not truly know what to expect out of him, realy what do you do? Watch last weeks game and then go into the NFL archives to dig up dated film. It's not like the Giants right now are playing like a powerhouse, the main difference in record between the two teams is they actually have a wide reciever that comes to play every week and they actually seem to believe that you need a defensive end of note, or two. They could be had, but it's all about if the Skins realy show up to play at 16W.

Lavar703
12-10-2007, 09:26 PM
Is there anyone who really believes Todd Collins is going to turn this thing around? seriously? If that were the case he would be a starting QB somewhere not an old backup in Washington. We will be lucky if Collins gets out alive against the Giants, there defensive line is a little bit better than the bears and with the way our OL blocks it could be a really long day.

Biggie
12-10-2007, 09:49 PM
Can I make a motion to adopt Bram's "Insane Todd Collins Posse" term for those who irrationally believe Collins is the saviour of the Redskin franchise. IF we win it will be through Portis and defense...not on the wobbly arm of a QB who has not started since the breakup of the spice girls
I second your motion, Senator!

greatest2
12-10-2007, 11:11 PM
Can I make a motion to adopt Bram's "Insane Todd Collins Posse" term for those who irrationally believe Collins is the saviour of the Redskin franchise. IF we win it will be through Portis and defense...not on the wobbly arm of a QB who has not started since the breakup of the spice girls

third

skinsfan36
12-10-2007, 11:16 PM
im not saying hes our savior he just needs to make 2-3 plays and not turn the ball over portis,defense will have to step up the next few weeks here

SkinsfaninNJ
12-10-2007, 11:29 PM
Can I make a motion to adopt Bram's "Insane Todd Collins Posse" term for those who irrationally believe Collins is the saviour of the Redskin franchise. IF we win it will be through Portis and defense...not on the wobbly arm of a QB who has not started since the breakup of the spice girls

The good thing is we are all going to find out together. But with Collins leading the way, we should be able to march right into the Meadowlands!:)

shally
12-10-2007, 11:46 PM
The good thing is we are all going to find out together. But with Collins leading the way, we should be able to march right into the Meadowlands!:)

maybe he is the next trent dilfer (the old one) or brad johnson ?

who knows what he will do, but sometimes guys get pigeonholed.. after all buffalo is not exactly known for their wisdom when it comes to post kelly qb's..
and playing at KC he was behind a young (and expensive) and healthy trent green..

i like that he prepares intensely for every game and that his limitations appear to be physical rather than mental..

that said, let's see him go up to the meadowlands and beat the giants THEN
i will start to feel better about our chances this year...

WarEagle
12-11-2007, 12:31 AM
Nice article from the Boston Globe about Todd Collins' heroics and the challenge of being a backup QB. Todd is from the Boston area, so this is a local story up there. (Wipe the spewed Natural Light from your computer screen, Dave.)

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2007/12/09/great_relief_for_redskins/

Jon Creveling
12-11-2007, 07:43 AM
There seems to be a willingness to sell Cicada Collins short because it seems like 9 out of 10 of us believe in Jason. I'm going to root for the guy this weekend, I hate the Jints, nothing means more to me than beating the Giants. I'd do think he must pull his weight this week, the O-line will no doubt have their hands full. Chris must bring his A game vs Osi and they must help Heyer vs the Gappy/Tuck combo. Because of the Giants d-line the running game, not sure we can realy count on that, I wouldn't. Todd must show something, back up or no back up, the only guy we have to realy count on is Cooley! On D, Gilbride has at least the last few weeks toned back Eli to a great extent, so he (Gilbride) may call the game on a slightly timid note. Eli and Shockey have not realy been on the same page the last few weeks so maybe an advantage there?:) Brandon Jacobs while a beast of a runner must be viewed like a big target! ( see what I'm trying to get at, the mentality of our team must change) pull an Eagles on his bigass and go for the strip every chance we get. GW must blitz Eli at the right times. The Jints chief weapon remains Plex, above all they must limit him the best they can, SS man to man every play, any mush and we are dead. Like earlier it will be with high interest to see just what Collins and Saunders try and do to win this game! But that depending on results may open up another can of worms!!!Above all, Gibbs must climb out of his timewarp, and not psyche the team out pre-game! It's not 1986 anymore Joe, let's pull a Billick like speach or something? Remember that famous "Lions den" speech? Out of character for Gibbs you may ask? for sure! but that's what we'll need! ps I feel better going into the game with Cicada Collins than with the other option:)