Theory about Santana Moss

[KidBroSweets]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the board and maybe you guys have discussed this before but I'm curious if I'm the only one that thinks this or what.

It seems as if Santana Moss is a great receiver when he has a soft-toss QB throwing to him. In his years at Miami, Ken Dorsey (who doesn't have the strongest arm) was throwing to him. He came up with the Jets and had Pennington throwing to him (noodle arm). He then comes to Washington and has his breakout year with Mark Brunell throwing it to him, another soft tosser. However, this year when Campbell becomes the full-time starter, Santana struggles. We all know how hard JC throws. He has dropped several catchable balls this year as many of you know. Campbell then goes down with a leg injury and we insert Todd Collins at QB. Todd has a very weak arm to say the least. Ever since Todd became the QB, Santana is back to the old Santana. He looks like that stud WR from his first year.

Maybe it's just coincidence and his injuries this year have been the reason for the down year, I dont know. However, it makes me wonder if Jason's throws are too hard for him.

[JasonCampbell]

Maybe it's just coincidence and his injuries this year have been the reason for the down year

bingo.

[KidBroSweets]

bingo.

But do the heel and quad injury really effect you dropping a pass right in your hands?

[DUCKIN_TACKLERS]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the board and maybe you guys have discussed this before but I'm curious if I'm the only one that thinks this or what.

It seems as if Santana Moss is a great receiver when he has a soft-toss QB throwing to him. In his years at Miami, Ken Dorsey (who doesn't have the strongest arm) was throwing to him. He came up with the Jets and had Pennington throwing to him (noodle arm). He then comes to Washington and has his breakout year with Mark Brunell throwing it to him, another soft tosser. However, this year when Campbell becomes the full-time starter, Santana struggles. We all know how hard JC throws. He has dropped several catchable balls this year as many of you know. Campbell then goes down with a leg injury and we insert Todd Collins at QB. Todd has a very weak arm to say the least. Ever since Todd became the QB, Santana is back to the old Santana. He looks like that stud WR from his first year.

Maybe it's just coincidence and his injuries this year have been the reason for the down year, I dont know. However, it makes me wonder if Jason's throws are too hard for him.

I understand your reasoning behind this theory...however I dont think there is much to it. Santana also made great plays when Ramsey was starting at times and he also has had great games with Campbell. I think the injury thing had alot to do with it. If you havent noticed in recent weeks he has been wide open on outs and comebacks and I think that is because he can finally cut violently on that leg again and he also has the quicks back which force soft cushions from defenders. I do think the soft tosses do help on the deep ball but thats just because Moss has the advantage of being able to adjust to the ball while it floats down like a snowflake. The hard tosses probably affected moss on some drops too during the season because he wasnt used to practicing with Campbell again due to injury. So in all no I dont think this is a big problem or that moss needs a noodle arm they just need time to work out the kinks.

[shally]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the board and maybe you guys have discussed this before but I'm curious if I'm the only one that thinks this or what.

It seems as if Santana Moss is a great receiver when he has a soft-toss QB throwing to him. In his years at Miami, Ken Dorsey (who doesn't have the strongest arm) was throwing to him. He came up with the Jets and had Pennington throwing to him (noodle arm). He then comes to Washington and has his breakout year with Mark Brunell throwing it to him, another soft tosser. However, this year when Campbell becomes the full-time starter, Santana struggles. We all know how hard JC throws. He has dropped several catchable balls this year as many of you know. Campbell then goes down with a leg injury and we insert Todd Collins at QB. Todd has a very weak arm to say the least. Ever since Todd became the QB, Santana is back to the old Santana. He looks like that stud WR from his first year.

Maybe it's just coincidence and his injuries this year have been the reason for the down year, I dont know. However, it makes me wonder if Jason's throws are too hard for him.

i dont think there is any question that you are correct about the type of ball moss prefers.

he is not a large man and doesnt have huge hands- although they are not as bad as some would portray. he made some incredible catches when brunell was throwing.

jason throws a much harder ball. sometimes he is not as accurate as he should be. moss needs to concentrate more, but he does have problems with JC's throws.

the long bombs by JC have simply been overthrown and seldom is moss even in a position to come down with it

[smoak]

Contrary to popular belief, I remember Brunell getting some heat on a few throws to Moss. It wasn 't the norm, but he was no Chad Pennington IMO.

I think it is the injuries myself, but interestign observation.

[hail2skins]

I know there is someone on this board sitting back and smiling at this post (akh).

I'm with Duckin on this one. Even when he played with Brunell, he caught a lot of short stuff like the screens and slants. He does like the jumpballs because it gives him an opportunity to make a play. However, that is a 50/50 gamble that he'll come down with it. He now has a QB he can't outrun the routes on and he has to adjust to that. I think the heel injury did cause him some trouble.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I actually think there is something to this and here's why. Moss is better when he has time to adjust to the ball, he's actually not that good when bullets are fired in his direction because he can't adjust, he has to catch and go. He's a reciever who likes to use his hands and what I mean by that is he doesn't like to catch the ball with his body, he wants to catch it with 2 hands and then go from there. I think the hard throwers hurt Santana more than we realize, I think if he played with Favre he wouldn't look so good.

[skinsfan36]

i think he just needs to work with campbell more in the offseason and stay freakin healthy

[Patrick]

First off - I don't think Moss is a "Great" receiver. Good - Yes. #1 receiver - Yes in the right system. Campbell needs a few big targets - at least one other than Cooley (or TEs).

[culpeper]

ive been wondering the exact same thing.

IMO though if he had been able to practice more with JC, he would have been fine. EVERY receiver would love those lobs to hang on to everytime, not just santana. those throws make anyone look good.

JC also needs to work on shotening that windup and getting the ball out sooner so he doesnt HAVE to rifle the ball in there. so IMO its not only santana's shortcomings.

[redwolf1218]

i dont think there is any question that you are correct about the type of ball moss prefers.

he is not a large man and doesnt have huge hands- although they are not as bad as some would portray. he made some incredible catches when brunell was throwing.

jason throws a much harder ball. sometimes he is not as accurate as he should be. moss needs to concentrate more, but he does have problems with JC's throws.

the long bombs by JC have simply been overthrown and seldom is moss even in a position to come down with it

i agree. Jason has a strong arm, but he still needs to learn how to throw with "touch". put some air under the ball and let Moss run under it, rather than throw a line drive over his head. if he can learn to lay it up there, Moss will go get it. he's one of the best i've ever seen at adjusting to the ball and going after it.

[Keino]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the board and maybe you guys have discussed this before but I'm curious if I'm the only one that thinks this or what.

It seems as if Santana Moss is a great receiver when he has a soft-toss QB throwing to him. In his years at Miami, Ken Dorsey (who doesn't have the strongest arm) was throwing to him. He came up with the Jets and had Pennington throwing to him (noodle arm). He then comes to Washington and has his breakout year with Mark Brunell throwing it to him, another soft tosser. However, this year when Campbell becomes the full-time starter, Santana struggles. We all know how hard JC throws. He has dropped several catchable balls this year as many of you know. Campbell then goes down with a leg injury and we insert Todd Collins at QB. Todd has a very weak arm to say the least. Ever since Todd became the QB, Santana is back to the old Santana. He looks like that stud WR from his first year.

Maybe it's just coincidence and his injuries this year have been the reason for the down year, I dont know. However, it makes me wonder if Jason's throws are too hard for him.


No, It's not a coincidence, and I made this point on another thread. Santana likes to get his hands ready for the reception at the last possible moment. He does this for a few reasons.
1. It is deceptive to the DB and makes it tougher for the DB to defend the ball.

2. It makes his double-moves more effective. DBs know he will wait to put his hands up, they must as a result respect the 1st move.

When you consider that JC and Moss didn't get together to work on timing and such, and consider that JC throws a bullet, the ball gets on Santana before he has been ready to catch it. The ball that hit him in the facemask in the GB game is a perfect illustration. The bulk of his drops have been on short-intermediate routes where Jason puts a little pepper on the ball.


The Deep ball, Jason needs to learn to put more air under it. He tries to hit his guys in stride, but with a little loft, guys like Santana can run under it. I really think he should try an under-throw a few to let his WR adjust, but those are QB points that come with time.

[Ibleedburgundy]

IMO, Kidbrosweets has a point. Santana Moss had better hands when he was working with QBs with relatively weaker arms. Seems like in the NFL ungodly strong arms are emphasized a little too much. A QB who can throw a catchable ball is often more effective. For example Patrick Ramsey had a pretty strong arm but anyone in their right mind would rather have Jeff Garcia ( I would hope).

Todd Collins' success will show JC that he doen't have to gun every pass. He will learn from this and it will make him better.

[saviour]

I understand the thinking of this thread but its very misleading. While Moss has had success with Brunell he did not have any success with Chad Pennington.

He had one big season while he was in NY and that was the year that Pennington missed most of the season with a broken hand he suffered in pre-season. Vinny Testerverde was throwing to Moss when he had his breakout season in NYand his success came to a screaching halt once Chad was placed back into the lineup later that season and going into the next season. That was always the concern in NY with that QB-WR. (And yes, I live in NYC and I read the local papers) There was even a noticable jump in production when Quincy Carter replaced Chad when he got hurt again and started throwing the ball deep to Moss. Moss had a ton of success with Brunell because Mark would not look at any other receiver other than Moss, and Cooley before he checked the ball down. And Brunell's arm is 50x stronger than Pennington's. It just takes Brunell a long time to wind up to throw the deep ball and he was also contact shy in the pocket so he threw it short or scrambled out of the pocket alot. His arm strength is fine.

Moss just has a problem with injuries and that is why he continues to struggle. If he could stay on the field and fight through them as much as Laverneous Coles did he would be all world. But he always seem to be nicked up and missing time and that is what hold him back from being on of the best in the league yearly.

[Charlz]

But do the heel and quad injury really effect you dropping a pass right in your hands?

Strong points for both cases-receivers in general prefer soft balls but SM HAS missed a few in his hands. I think that the injury has most to do with it.

[shally]

the other throw that JC HAS to learn to throw is the back shoulder deep pass. it is one of the most effective throws a qb can make because the defender has no clue that the ball is "underthrown" because he is watching the receiver until the last second. he has little opportunity to break up the pass without commiting pass interference..
that is what reggie brown killed us with against the eagles.

JC has to learn that that pass cannot be thrown too hard. in fact, i would say that 90 % or more of JC's misses on long passes are overthrows. his trajectory is TOO flat and it makes it very difficult for a receiver to make any adjustment on the ball... he needs to develop the ability to throw deeper passes with better touch and less pure velocity. that should come with experience. but there is no way that moss and ARE can adjust because, barring injury recovery , they are as fast now as they are ever going to be