I Have Even More Respect For Gibbs Now.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I dogged Gibbs more than once in his four years here, and while those criticisms were sometimes just highlighting obvious mistakes in certain games that had nothing to do with underlying problems with the franchise (time management and such), I have to say, I'm quickly changing my opinion on just how good a job he did.

It's painfully obvious that Snyder and Vinny learned absolutely nothing in the past four years. It's also painfully obvious from reports like this:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235215

...that this organization is and has been more dysfunctional than most of us imagined.

Given how much light has been shed in the past couple of weeks on exactly what Gibbs was working with from a big-picture point of view, I find it absolutely incredible that he managed to make the playoffs in half of his seasons here. It wasn't just an improvement on what we had before. With Snyder at the helm, it was practically miraculous.

[JsMaViSd]

finally, people start to see what Joe Gibbs did for this team..

im sure fans will notice when next year were sitting 6-10..

im tired of when i go watch a game and hearing skins fans saying "Gibbs sucks, he is too old, he needs to get out of here"

if it wasnt for Gibbs, no WAY were we winning 9 games last year

[CNYSkinFan]

yep. This is why when otehrs were calling for Gibbs head I was willing to deal with the stupid game manegement and two timeouts (though that did get me on the edge). I feared he was the only thing holding Snyder back from being the ego maniac we aall knew he was and Vinny from taking over the franchise.

The downfall has started...so who are the top college players over the next couple of years, might as well get a head start scouting them

[openallnight]

...that this organization is and has been more dysfunctional than most of us imagined.


This is just a bunch of malarkey.
The current coaches are obviously in a state of anxiety and trepidation as they are unsure of their futures here. It's only human nature. But, it is a part of life, especially in the competitive world of the NFL.

I work for a big company and every year or two our company buys a competitor of ours. And every year there is apprehension from our staff prior to the looming round of layoffs. But, those of us that survive the cuts continue to work our best and are even motivated with a renewed sense of urgency.

Now, what is management supposed to do to ease the coaches sentiments? Call a meeting and tell them some of you may be let go, some may be asked to stay but we don't know who yet?
No, in these circumstances silence is probably the best policy until analysis is done and decisions are made. Let's face it, whenever there is turnover you're gonna have bad blood.

Now, I'm not saying we don't have problems with our management, but that's a different issue altogether. The point here is don't gauge the state of the organization by the 2nd hand comments of a coach that may be fired tomorrow.

[openallnight]

The downfall has started...so who are the top college players over the next couple of years, might as well get a head start scouting them

Do you really think w/ the virus and ds running the show we're gonna have any draft picks in the next few years???

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Now, I'm not saying we don't have problems with our management, but that's a different issue altogether. The point here is don't gauge the state of the organization by the 2nd hand comments of a coach that may be fired tomorrow.

Believe me, that's not where I'm getting 97% of my judgment from.

[CNYSkinFan]

Do you really think w/ the virus and ds running the show we're gonna have any draft picks in the next few years???
point well taken...now wherre is that 2X4 I keep to bang the pain out of my head....

[akhhorus]

How much did Gibbs really "reign" in Snyder? We still traded away picks for players, we traded up in the draft multiple times, we gave out big contracts and still flopped around like Curly after his stroke(remember when we dealt for Denver's first and then it almost immediately leaked out that we were after Campbell--only to have the "brain trust" come out and categorically deny that they had any interest in Campbell). We might have gotten better players overall than from pre-Gibbs, but the style didn't change a whole lot.

[CNYSkinFan]

How much did Gibbs really "reign" in Snyder? We still traded away picks for players, we traded up in the draft multiple times, we gave out big contracts and still flopped around like Curly after his stroke(remember when we dealt for Denver's first and then it almost immediately leaked out that we were after Campbell--only to have the "brain trust" come out and categorically deny that they had any interest in Campbell). We might have gotten better players overall than from pre-Gibbs, but the style didn't change a whole lot.
But there was a grace and sense of class to it all. And we never thought things like snyder was hiring Gibbs staff for him or Cerrato had "roster" control

dark days are ahead for our beloved franchise. Gibbs was Marcus Aurelius and now starts the slow decline

(why am I doing a Roman analogy to Akh...I apologize for the next 4 pages of arguing about Roman history)

[SkinsfaninNJ]

How much did Gibbs really "reign" in Snyder? We still traded away picks for players, we traded up in the draft multiple times, we gave out big contracts and still flopped around like Curly after his stroke(remember when we dealt for Denver's first and then it almost immediately leaked out that we were after Campbell--only to have the "brain trust" come out and categorically deny that they had any interest in Campbell). We might have gotten better players overall than from pre-Gibbs, but the style didn't change a whole lot.

LOL. I forgot about the Campbell worst kept secret in draft history. That was kind of funny. The team acted like Napolean Dynamite in their refusals.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

But there was a grace and sense of class to it all. And we never thought things like snyder was hiring Gibbs staff for him or Cerrato had "roster" control

dark days are ahead for our beloved franchise. Gibbs was Marcus Aurelius and now starts the slow decline

(why am I doing a Roman analogy to Akh...I apologize for the next 4 pages of arguing about Roman history)

It was definitely clear that Gibbs had complete authority over assistant coaching hires. Based on what we have seen so far, that's not going to happen again. Sad really.

[akhhorus]

But there was a grace and sense of class to it all. And we never thought things like snyder was hiring Gibbs staff for him or Cerrato had "roster" control

No, but it became clear quickly that while Gibbs had oversight over the coaches, Snyderatto still had a lot of say over the roster.

dark days are ahead for our beloved franchise. Gibbs was Marcus Aurelius and now starts the slow decline

(why am I doing a Roman analogy to Akh...I apologize for the next 4 pages of arguing about Roman history)

No, Gibbs was Trajan. He might have looked better compared to his predecessors and won some big victories, but in the end Gibbs might not do us much good long term.

And yes, you asked for it.

[CNYSkinFan]

No, but it became clear quickly that while Gibbs had oversight over the coaches, Snyderatto still had a lot of say over the roster.



No, Gibbs was Trajan. He might have looked better compared to his predecessors and won some big victories, but in the end Gibbs might not do us much good long term.

And yes, you asked for it.
I don't know about roster control...(say on the final 53), Cerrato definitely influenced free agent signing and draft choices though...which is bad enough.

[akhhorus]

I don't know about roster control...(say on the final 53), Cerrato definitely influenced free agent signing and draft choices though...which is bad enough.

Gibbs probably had final say, but Snyderatto probably had major influence up until the final decision was made.

[riskus]

How much did Gibbs really "reign" in Snyder? We still traded away picks for players, we traded up in the draft multiple times, we gave out big contracts and still flopped around like Curly after his stroke(remember when we dealt for Denver's first and then it almost immediately leaked out that we were after Campbell--only to have the "brain trust" come out and categorically deny that they had any interest in Campbell). We might have gotten better players overall than from pre-Gibbs, but the style didn't change a whole lot.


Im starting to think Gibbs actually encouraged snyder rather than reign him in.

[Syllable]

Rofl, good comedy going on here. Even more so in that ES thread.

[RedskinsDave]

I think what we had for the last few years was the bad kid acting good in front of his parent. Now that daddy has left the room, he is starting to act up again. Snyder is nothing short of an embarrassment. There have been a lot more than this one source to say the team is a laughingstock right now.

[Syllable]

I think what we had for the last few years was the bad kid acting good in front of his parent. Now that daddy has left the room, he is starting to act up again. Snyder is nothing short of an embarrassment. There have been a lot more than this one source to say the team is a laughingstock right now.

Those sources must be working for teams that havn't made the playoffs in the previous years... Tell me the Skins are the laughing stock when they consistently don't make the playoffs, until then, we are better than about half the other teams who can't get to the playoffs.

[RedskinsDave]

Those sources must be working for teams that havn't made the playoffs in the previous years... Tell me the Skins are the laughing stock when they consistently don't make the playoffs, until then, we are better than about half the other teams who can't get to the playoffs.

Oh horse dung. Les Incompetent gets promoted. The HC search is all over the place, stops at a guy no one else wanted, then reigned in because the FANS aren't happy. The Redskins don't consistently make the playoffs. If you really think we are better than half the teams out there, they could probably use you on the staff.

[CNYSkinFan]

Rofl, good comedy going on here. Even more so in that ES thread.



http://sayhey.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/homer-simpson-3.jpg

I defy you to give any examples of competence that can be attributed to Snyder and Cerrato outside of the Gibbs years

[James F. Quinn]

But there was a grace and sense of class to it all. And we never thought things like snyder was hiring Gibbs staff for him or Cerrato had "roster" control

dark days are ahead for our beloved franchise. Gibbs was Marcus Aurelius and now starts the slow decline

(why am I doing a Roman analogy to Akh...I apologize for the next 4 pages of arguing about Roman history)

See, if Sean Connery had played Marcus Aurelius, he would have kicked Commodus' butt all the way back to Rome, and the movie would have been a one-reeler.

[IowaSkinsFan]

How much did Gibbs really "reign" in Snyder? We still traded away picks for players, we traded up in the draft multiple times, we gave out big contracts and still flopped around like Curly after his stroke(remember when we dealt for Denver's first and then it almost immediately leaked out that we were after Campbell--only to have the "brain trust" come out and categorically deny that they had any interest in Campbell). We might have gotten better players overall than from pre-Gibbs, but the style didn't change a whole lot.


I actually think Snyder had an adverse effect on Gibbs with the ability to use a money as a quick fix and bring in any FA you want. When it was Beathard, it wasn't like this. I think Snyder had an effect on Gibbs, not the other way around.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Gibbs still wasn't good, so what if we go 6-10 next year and are a joke of a franchise. It's been that way ever since Gibbs left us the first time. He helped get us back into the playoffs as #6 seeds but he hardly did anything special.

I don't understand the love affair with the job he did, I really don't. He was a mediocre coach over the last 4 years.

Whether we take a step back or not isn't the issue to me, it's been the same story for this franchise for well over a decade now. We are stuck in the 6-9 win range. Not bad enough to get better, not good enough to get to where we want to be. We have just been stuck in mediocrity and Gibbs didn't do anything to change that.

[whistleandthumb]

I don't know who that guy is on ES that has a "scout friend" at the Senior Bowl, but you guys are putting WAY too much stock into what he's saying. WAY too much.

[smoak]

finally, people start to see what Joe Gibbs did for this team..

im sure fans will notice when next year were sitting 6-10..

im tired of when i go watch a game and hearing skins fans saying "Gibbs sucks, he is too old, he needs to get out of here"

if it wasnt for Gibbs, no WAY were we winning 9 games last year

That is how I feel and it is depressing. Im pissed and next season will probably be my last as a ticket holder.

I came back to see Gibbs lead us to a prominent place in the NF: and while we certainly fell short of where even he wanted to be, we were at least respectable...

This is a nightmare.

[KidBroSweets]

Gibbs still wasn't good, so what if we go 6-10 next year and are a joke of a franchise. It's been that way ever since Gibbs left us the first time. He helped get us back into the playoffs as #6 seeds but he hardly did anything special.

I don't understand the love affair with the job he did, I really don't. He was a mediocre coach over the last 4 years.

Whether we take a step back or not isn't the issue to me, it's been the same story for this franchise for well over a decade now. We are stuck in the 6-9 win range. Not bad enough to get better, not good enough to get to where we want to be. We have just been stuck in mediocrity and Gibbs didn't do anything to change that.

Exactly.

[smoak]

Gibbs still wasn't good, so what if we go 6-10 next year and are a joke of a franchise. It's been that way ever since Gibbs left us the first time. He helped get us back into the playoffs as #6 seeds but he hardly did anything special.

I don't understand the love affair with the job he did, I really don't. He was a mediocre coach over the last 4 years.

Whether we take a step back or not isn't the issue to me, it's been the same story for this franchise for well over a decade now. We are stuck in the 6-9 win range. Not bad enough to get better, not good enough to get to where we want to be. We have just been stuck in mediocrity and Gibbs didn't do anything to change that.

Wow, there is always someone who wants to crap on thos of us who looking to cling onto anything positive. Nice job. Don't forget to kick the cat on your way out.

[FightforoldDC]

and then there was Hadrian ... the one of discipline.

[thehogs11]

Wow, there is always someone who wants to crap on those of us who looking to cling onto anything positive. Nice job. Don't forget to kick the cat on your way out.

Ihear that. I am waiting to next year to form any opinions. You never know Danny did not get rich over being dumb.?

[CarMike]

I'm not going to apologize for what I said about coach Gibbs back when we were struggling. It doesn't matter who the coach is. If we're 6-10 under Gibbs or 6-10 under Fassel, we're still a 6-10 team.

Back when I was harsh on coach Gibbs, he deserved it.

[CarMike]

Wow, there is always someone who wants to crap on thos of us who looking to cling onto anything positive. Nice job. Don't forget to kick the cat on your way out.

I wish I had a 1/10 of your optimism smoak. I really do. But i'm sick and tired of "waiting" till next year. Snyder is running the organization into the ground. I'm not even looking forward to next year at all. It's going to be a mess.

[smoak]

I wish I had a 1/10 of your optimism smoak. I really do. But i'm sick and tired of "waiting" till next year. Snyder is running the organization into the ground. I'm not even looking forward to next year at all. It's going to be a mess.

Yeah, I wish I still had 1/10 of my optimism... With Gibbs here, I felt hope. Was it the level of success he wanted? No, but football was meaningful in a way that hasn't been since he left. I respect and appreciate him for that.

Now that he is gone and there is no buffer to The lil Danny, I think we are doomed. Granted they may have some master scheme that we don't yet see, but I feel like it is even worse than ever before in terms of Snyder's bumbling idot ways... I mean, barring us hiring Fassel (according to rumors any way) the next HC will have almost ZERO say in his staff. This isn't Jerry Jones grabbing up Garret who is considered to be a great head coaching prospect down the road... This is an owner pretending he knows so much about football that he can make all the call... I'll be surprised if we win 7 or 8 games next season. Honestly.

So I guess what I am asking (hat in hand) is.... Can I join the "Dan snyder has reached in and ripped my soul to shreds and killed every fraction of hope" club.

[KidBroSweets]

Yeah, I wish I still had 1/10 of my optimism... With Gibbs here, I felt hope. Was it the level of success he wanted? No, but football was meaningful in a way that hasn't been since he left. I respect and appreciate him for that.

Now that he is gone and there is no buffer to The lil Danny, I think we are doomed. Granted they may have some master scheme that we don't yet see, but I feel like it is even worse than ever before in terms of Snyder's bumbling idot ways... I mean, barring us hiring Fassel (according to rumors any way) the next HC will have almost ZERO say in his staff. This isn't Jerry Jones grabbing up Garret who is considered to be a great head coaching prospect down the road... This is an owner pretending he knows so much about football that he can make all the call... I'll be surprised if we win 7 or 8 games next season. Honestly.

So I guess what I am asking (hat in hand) is.... Can I join the "Dan snyder has reached in and ripped my soul to shreds and killed every fraction of hope" club.


Well the ways we've done it in the past havent worked.....so why not try something different?

And referring to Gibbs...dont be positive just to be positive for the heck of it. Joe was very average in his second stint. Sure we werent as bad as we were with Spurrier, but we werent that much better. Theres not much of a difference between 5-11 and 6-10 and 7-9. If you wanna be positive, then talk about what a beast Portis is.

[RoanokeSkin]

With Gibbs here, I felt hope. Was it the level of success he wanted? No, but football was meaningful in a way that hasn't been since he left. I respect and appreciate him for that.

I agree with this 100%. I will miss the the calmness and leadership that Gibbs brought back to this organization. 2 playoff appearances in 4 years might not make everybody on this board happy, but considering where we have been, it is one hell of an improvement.

[smoak]

Well the ways we've done it in the past havent worked.....so why not try something different?

And referring to Gibbs...dont be positive just to be positive for the heck of it. Joe was very average in his second stint. Sure we werent as bad as we were with Spurrier, but we werent that much better. Theres not much of a difference between 5-11 and 6-10 and 7-9. If you wanna be positive, then talk about what a beast Portis is.

Do you even READ my posts?? When discussing Gibbs, I clearly state that we didn't get to where he wanted to be in terms of overall team success. But in four years we had a 9 win season and a 10 win season with one playoff win. That is exactly the amount of success we had in the ELEVEN YEARS HE WAS GONE!!!?? If you don't see that as progreess or an achievement (especially with this owner), then we can agree to disagree and not speak of it again. I can't help you if you don't think our team and roster are bbetter today than at any point in eleven years Gibbs was gone. Maybe you want to go back to likes of Shane Mattews, Shar pourdanesh, and Stanley Richards, BUT I DO NOT!!!!!! This thread (IMO) isn't about debating for the umpteenth million time how bad we thinks Gibbs is... IT was about respecting what the man accomplished given this jack-hole of an owner.

Regarding your comment oon Portis, I just find that laughable. Yoiu call Portis a beast and throw under the first transit train. Maybe if Portis was a full time "beast" instead of only playing when he felt like it, then maybe Gibbs' record would have been better. I can point to quite a few games that Portis carried this team and a bunch where he didn't show up. I will be FLOORED if Portis is on this roster in 2009 and ABSOLUTELTY dumbfounded if he is here in 2010. One of Gibbs biggest mistakes IMO was coddling these players that consistently failed him with turnovers, dropped passes (especially on third down), missed tackles, and an overall lachk of effort. Sean Taylor's death galvanized this team and got them playing better, but one of the things I thought while watching that nice run was "Aside from Collins who wasn't given the opportunity, WHY THEY DID THESE PLAYERS NOT GIVE THIS LEVEL OF EFFORT BEFORE". I didn't see anything differnt from Coach Gibbs and the rest of the staff (again except the difference with Collins which is admittedly huge), so you tell me what the change was? I think it was in part b/c our U guys started caring which is bull!!! They should have given that effort from the start.... And don't get me going on the one that QUIT on the team in the middle of a game we were winnning and eventually lost.

In summary.... Yeah Gibbs was all that great the second go round but I'll quit watching football before I give this group of players a free pass. I for one am ready for a new roster.

[csquared]

Do you even READ my posts?? When discussing Gibbs, I clearly state that we didn't get to where he wanted to be in terms of overall team success. But in four years we had a 9 win season and a 10 win season with one playoff win. That is exactly the amount of success we had in the ELEVEN YEARS HE WAS GONE!!!?? If you don't see that as progreess or an achievement (especially with this owner), then we can agree to disagree and not speak of it again. I can't help you if you don't think our team and roster are bbetter today than at any point in eleven years Gibbs was gone. Maybe you want to go back to likes of Shane Mattews, Shar pourdanesh, and Stanley Richards, BUT I DO NOT!!!!!! This thread (IMO) isn't about debating for the umpteenth million time how bad we thinks Gibbs is... IT was about respecting what the man accomplished given this jack-hole of an owner.

Regarding your comment oon Portis, I just find that laughable. Yoiu call Portis a beast and throw under the first transit train. Maybe if Portis was a full time "beast" instead of only playing when he felt like it, then maybe Gibbs' record would have been better. I can point to quite a few games that Portis carried this team and a bunch where he didn't show up. I will be FLOORED if Portis is on this roster in 2009 and ABSOLUTELTY dumbfounded if he is here in 2010. One of Gibbs biggest mistakes IMO was coddling these players that consistently failed him with turnovers, dropped passes (especially on third down), missed tackles, and an overall lachk of effort. Sean Taylor's death galvanized this team and got them playing better, but one of the things I thought while watching that nice run was "Aside from Collins who wasn't given the opportunity, WHY THEY DID THESE PLAYERS NOT GIVE THIS LEVEL OF EFFORT BEFORE". I didn't see anything differnt from Coach Gibbs and the rest of the staff (again except the difference with Collins which is admittedly huge), so you tell me what the change was? I think it was in part b/c our U guys started caring which is bull!!! They should have given that effort from the start.... And don't get me going on the one that QUIT on the team in the middle of a game we were winnning and eventually lost.

In summary.... Yeah Gibbs was all that great the second go round but I'll quit watching football before I give this group of players a free pass. I for one am ready for a new roster.

I agree with you here. Its a cycle. On one hand Gibbs needed to be more expecting of the players. On the other hand the players get paid millions of dollars to play a game. So they should have performed alot better when they werent under the gun.

[jtovb2005]

Wow it is January, we have no HC yet, draft is still a couple of months away, summer camp not started and we are already 6-10? Season tickets are on the line?? Wow.

Does anyone around here remember the 50's and 60's. 60's is when I became a fan. I sure didn't quit then. As far as tickets go I didn't wait 19 years to get tickets and dump them now.

The team in the past 4 years has been very frustration and inconsistent. No way any of us can say that with or without Gibbs it would have been any different. It is what it is, time to move on and have confidence in what is coming.

Time will tell that tale. Why don't we wait until then barbarians are actually at the gates to call the end to Redskins Civilization.

[Jon Creveling]

WHY THEY DID THESE PLAYERS NOT GIVE THIS LEVEL OF EFFORT BEFORE".

Counter view is why did it take the Kids death to get the most out of the coaching staff?

[smoak]

Counter view is why did it take the Kids death to get the most out of the coaching staff?

I'd argue that the coaching staff was almost the same EXCEPT when JC got hurt and they were more comfortable opening up the offense with Collins.

I can't put all the dropped passes, fumbles, terrible blocking, missed tackles, etc on the coaching staff. With certain guys this year it really looked like effort to me... And if you want to blame the coaching staff (specifically Gibbs) for allowing that to continue and handling these guys with kid gloves, then I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Gibbs treated his players with too much respect. This wasn't the late 80s and early 90s teams that were mature and worked hard to be the best (even during the strike year)...

This group for whatever reason was treated like a country club and THAT is where I'd blame Gibbs. Just b/c you pay Portis millions doesn't mean you don't punish him in practice for fumbling.

Wow it is January, we have no HC yet, draft is still a couple of months away, summer camp not started and we are already 6-10? Season tickets are on the line?? Wow.

Does anyone around here remember the 50's and 60's. 60's is when I became a fan. I sure didn't quit then. As far as tickets go I didn't wait 19 years to get tickets and dump them now.

The team in the past 4 years has been very frustration and inconsistent. No way any of us can say that with or without Gibbs it would have been any different. It is what it is, time to move on and have confidence in what is coming.

Time will tell that tale. Why don't we wait until then barbarians are actually at the gates to call the end to Redskins Civilization.

Just to be clear, I live two hours away and our family is single income so that my wife can stay home with the kids. I make sacrifices so I can go to games more fo rthe comraderie than anything else... Football translates VERY well to TV and I could still buy tickets to 2-3 games a year on ebay. I am NOT a fairweather fan and I'll will get behind this team no matter wh o they run out there. I cheered for them when Turner was the coach. But I have little faith in our ability to succeed with Danny at the helm. I don't trust him, and it is a terrible feeling.

Most of all, I HOPE I AM WRONG!!! I don't want to be right at all, but without Gibbs somewhat keeping Danny in check, I am scared.

I agree with you here. Its a cycle. On one hand Gibbs needed to be more expecting of the players. On the other hand the players get paid millions of dollars to play a game. So they should have performed alot better when they werent under the gun.

I wholeheartedly agree that Gibbs needed to hold these guys to a higher standard and that was a huge mistake IMO. Its fine to take the blame in the media, but I would hope that behind closed doors he ripped Portis and Moss for games like Tampa and Green Bay. That simply wasn't coaching that beat us in those games...

All I am saying is that I liked this group (coaches and players) b/c they gave me more to cheer about in four years than the past eleven... But sadly I think if we are turning the page on Gibbs, then I think there are a lot of players who need to wake up QUICKLY or we should turn the page on them. Sadly, we no longer have one of the guys that I felt was starting to "get it". I was more critical of Taylor than any other player there for awhile, but this year he looked like the player and person I thought he was when we drafted him... He was IMO THE best S in football prior to his injury, but certainly you couldn't put him outside the top three...

[Jon Creveling]

I look at the whole team (coaching included) and saw a lack of self motivation and a lack of urgency. A bad combo to have, players needing jumpstarting and the staff unable to do that until S.T.. Part of me right or wrong, feels that if the Kid was still with us we would not have gotten to the playoffs being honest.

[KidBroSweets]

Do you even READ my posts?? When discussing Gibbs, I clearly state that we didn't get to where he wanted to be in terms of overall team success. But in four years we had a 9 win season and a 10 win season with one playoff win. That is exactly the amount of success we had in the ELEVEN YEARS HE WAS GONE!!!?? If you don't see that as progreess or an achievement (especially with this owner), then we can agree to disagree and not speak of it again. I can't help you if you don't think our team and roster are bbetter today than at any point in eleven years Gibbs was gone. Maybe you want to go back to likes of Shane Mattews, Shar pourdanesh, and Stanley Richards, BUT I DO NOT!!!!!! This thread (IMO) isn't about debating for the umpteenth million time how bad we thinks Gibbs is... IT was about respecting what the man accomplished given this jack-hole of an owner.

Regarding your comment oon Portis, I just find that laughable. Yoiu call Portis a beast and throw under the first transit train. Maybe if Portis was a full time "beast" instead of only playing when he felt like it, then maybe Gibbs' record would have been better. I can point to quite a few games that Portis carried this team and a bunch where he didn't show up. I will be FLOORED if Portis is on this roster in 2009 and ABSOLUTELTY dumbfounded if he is here in 2010. One of Gibbs biggest mistakes IMO was coddling these players that consistently failed him with turnovers, dropped passes (especially on third down), missed tackles, and an overall lachk of effort. Sean Taylor's death galvanized this team and got them playing better, but one of the things I thought while watching that nice run was "Aside from Collins who wasn't given the opportunity, WHY THEY DID THESE PLAYERS NOT GIVE THIS LEVEL OF EFFORT BEFORE". I didn't see anything differnt from Coach Gibbs and the rest of the staff (again except the difference with Collins which is admittedly huge), so you tell me what the change was? I think it was in part b/c our U guys started caring which is bull!!! They should have given that effort from the start.... And don't get me going on the one that QUIT on the team in the middle of a game we were winnning and eventually lost.

In summary.... Yeah Gibbs was all that great the second go round but I'll quit watching football before I give this group of players a free pass. I for one am ready for a new roster.


I quit reading reading when you started talking about Portis. Some people just dont understand....Im not gonna argue with you. This is silly.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Yeah, I wish I still had 1/10 of my optimism... With Gibbs here, I felt hope. Was it the level of success he wanted? No, but football was meaningful in a way that hasn't been since he left. I respect and appreciate him for that.

Now that he is gone and there is no buffer to The lil Danny, I think we are doomed. Granted they may have some master scheme that we don't yet see, but I feel like it is even worse than ever before in terms of Snyder's bumbling idot ways... I mean, barring us hiring Fassel (according to rumors any way) the next HC will have almost ZERO say in his staff. This isn't Jerry Jones grabbing up Garret who is considered to be a great head coaching prospect down the road... This is an owner pretending he knows so much about football that he can make all the call... I'll be surprised if we win 7 or 8 games next season. Honestly.

So I guess what I am asking (hat in hand) is.... Can I join the "Dan snyder has reached in and ripped my soul to shreds and killed every fraction of hope" club.
Sure no problem. But you're gonna have to wait a bit because we've had a sudden increase in requests lately and are running a little late on the shipment of the membership cards. But yours should be on the way soon.
Wlecome to the club!

[ChapelHillMatt]

Do you even READ my posts?? When discussing Gibbs, I clearly state that we didn't get to where he wanted to be in terms of overall team success. But in four years we had a 9 win season and a 10 win season with one playoff win. That is exactly the amount of success we had in the ELEVEN YEARS HE WAS GONE!!!?? If you don't see that as progreess or an achievement (especially with this owner), then we can agree to disagree and not speak of it again. I can't help you if you don't think our team and roster are bbetter today than at any point in eleven years Gibbs was gone. Maybe you want to go back to likes of Shane Mattews, Shar pourdanesh, and Stanley Richards, BUT I DO NOT!!!!!! This thread (IMO) isn't about debating for the umpteenth million time how bad we thinks Gibbs is... IT was about respecting what the man accomplished given this jack-hole of an owner.

Regarding your comment oon Portis, I just find that laughable. Yoiu call Portis a beast and throw under the first transit train. Maybe if Portis was a full time "beast" instead of only playing when he felt like it, then maybe Gibbs' record would have been better. I can point to quite a few games that Portis carried this team and a bunch where he didn't show up. I will be FLOORED if Portis is on this roster in 2009 and ABSOLUTELTY dumbfounded if he is here in 2010. One of Gibbs biggest mistakes IMO was coddling these players that consistently failed him with turnovers, dropped passes (especially on third down), missed tackles, and an overall lachk of effort. Sean Taylor's death galvanized this team and got them playing better, but one of the things I thought while watching that nice run was "Aside from Collins who wasn't given the opportunity, WHY THEY DID THESE PLAYERS NOT GIVE THIS LEVEL OF EFFORT BEFORE". I didn't see anything differnt from Coach Gibbs and the rest of the staff (again except the difference with Collins which is admittedly huge), so you tell me what the change was? I think it was in part b/c our U guys started caring which is bull!!! They should have given that effort from the start.... And don't get me going on the one that QUIT on the team in the middle of a game we were winnning and eventually lost.

In summary.... Yeah Gibbs was all that great the second go round but I'll quit watching football before I give this group of players a free pass. I for one am ready for a new roster.

Blame the players if you want, they are at fault too but don't leave Gibbs with no reponsibility for our failures. He was supposed to lead us back to the Super Bowl and we got nowhere close to that. Yes he took us to the playoffs 2 of the 4 years and that's something we haven't experienced since he left but have we lowered our standards so much where we praise someone for a 30-34 record and 2 trips to the playoffs as #6 seeds? I mean we had zero home playoff games under his leadership, no season with more than 10 wins. A couple of winning streaks at the end of the year made his regime look better than it actually was. We were extremely mediocre and horribly inconsistant in his time here. I wish that weren't the case but that's what I saw from watching this team over the last 4 years.

So I'm no less concerned about this team than I was when Gibbs was here, if Gibbs would have stayed I would still be concerned. He had yet to prove we could get the ball rolling in the right direciton. We would just take 2 steps forward and 1 step back, it never felt like we were going places, just treading water really is all we were doing.

I don't want you all to think I hate Gibbs because I don't but I don't see how you can sit here and think he did a great job either. He was completely average, his teams made far to many mistakes in his time here. Blame whoever you want for that but Gibbs was at the top, if we are playing the blame game it has to start with him, he was responsible for getting this team back to the Super Bowl, he failed to get the job done.

As far as Portis, we get rid of him then we'll get worse. He's one of our best players, much like Moss you don't get better by getting rid of your best players.

[Skins7ny]

How much did Gibbs really "reign" in Snyder? We still traded away picks for players, we traded up in the draft multiple times, we gave out big contracts and still flopped around like Curly after his stroke(remember when we dealt for Denver's first and then it almost immediately leaked out that we were after Campbell--only to have the "brain trust" come out and categorically deny that they had any interest in Campbell). We might have gotten better players overall than from pre-Gibbs, but the style didn't change a whole lot.
And at the time those decisions were made, you defended or minimized virtually every one of them, including the telegraphing of the move for Campbell. I find your recent posts to be hilarious. Your posts since the season ended have bemoaned the actions of the FO, when you and I (among others) would get into terrible arguments about those moves. Now it seems that you have come around to our way of thinking on those moves, and you are pretending as if all your posts defending them at the time didn't exist. I am sure that people on this board have longer memories than that. Anyway, welcome to reality-it is nice to finally have you aboard!
Yeah, I wish I still had 1/10 of my optimism... With Gibbs here, I felt hope. Was it the level of success he wanted? No, but football was meaningful in a way that hasn't been since he left. I respect and appreciate him for that.

Now that he is gone and there is no buffer to The lil Danny, I think we are doomed. Granted they may have some master scheme that we don't yet see, but I feel like it is even worse than ever before in terms of Snyder's bumbling idot ways... I mean, barring us hiring Fassel (according to rumors any way) the next HC will have almost ZERO say in his staff. This isn't Jerry Jones grabbing up Garret who is considered to be a great head coaching prospect down the road... This is an owner pretending he knows so much about football that he can make all the call... I'll be surprised if we win 7 or 8 games next season. Honestly.

So I guess what I am asking (hat in hand) is.... Can I join the "Dan snyder has reached in and ripped my soul to shreds and killed every fraction of hope" club.

Say it isn't so, Shally! You have been my beacon of hope the last 2 weeks! Where is my tape of the 1991 season in review-stat!!

[jtovb2005]

Just to be clear, I live two hours away and our family is single income so that my wife can stay home with the kids. I make sacrifices so I can go to games more fo rthe comraderie than anything else... Football translates VERY well to TV and I could still buy tickets to 2-3 games a year on ebay. I am NOT a fairweather fan and I'll will get behind this team no matter wh o they run out there. I cheered for them when Turner was the coach. But I have little faith in our ability to succeed with Danny at the helm. I don't trust him, and it is a terrible feeling.

Most of all, I HOPE I AM WRONG!!! I don't want to be right at all, but without Gibbs somewhat keeping Danny in check, I am scared.

Understand the money thing. I live 4 hours away. I don't always get someone to go with me so have thought about it. I just hate to stop when good things might be around the corner :)

I also understand the issues with the 2 guys at the top of this thing. I don't like them either. I still think in this parity league you can change your luck pretty quickly. I sure don't have all the answers though. Just always optimistic for next season, heck during the season the next Sunday!! :)

[smoak]

I quit reading reading when you started talking about Portis. Some people just dont understand....Im not gonna argue with you. This is silly.

You're right. It IS silly to put you head in the ground and blindly blame the coaches for everything while giving Portis and other players a free pass. Please, continue to live in denial.

Also, Portis in not the only one I'd single out. Fabini, Wade, Moss, Cooley, Samuels... Guys we all know and love (except Fabini) had too many moments where they let down the coaching staff with mental errors.

And never once have I contended that the coaching staff is blameless in this and far from it actually.... It started and ended with Gibbs so if Portis was going to show up out of shape, Gibbs should have made him inactive until the guy could run 30+ yards without being completely gassed. Gibbs should have benched Moss... oh wait, Moss took care of that for him. My guess is that Fabini would have been benched if there was a viable alternative.

It kills me b/c week in and week out I read people lambast Gibbs and complain about how conservative he is when I saw us call the plays that were aggressive and MISS on them (Philly in week 2 is a great example). We'd take our shot and a WR would drop the ball or Campbell would be a hair off. Had more players stepped up and made plays then the coaching staff could have trusted them to be more aggressive.

What did GB, NY, and dallass all have in common (not sure about Seattle and Tampa)??? The basically had healthy offensive lines all season. I know they might have had guys miss a game or two here and there, but we were out a PB caliber RG and perennial rock at RT after basically week. So yes, I absolutely respect what Gibbs was able to accomplish even though we fell short of expectations. How much more clear can I be that I think the coaching staff and the players share in the blame for not accomplishing our goal??

[smoak]

Understand the money thing. I live 4 hours away. I don't always get someone to go with me so have thought about it. I just hate to stop when good things might be around the corner :)

I also understand the issues with the 2 guys at the top of this thing. I don't like them either. I still think in this parity league you can change your luck pretty quickly. I sure don't have all the answers though. Just always optimistic for next season, heck during the season the next Sunday!! :)

Yeah, I just look at the $$$ I spend on gas, tolls, food, tickets, and other stuff used for attending games and I think that is money that could be put aside for my daughter.... But of course, I was probably speaking out of frustration b/c I reallt do enjoying going and I would even say I am looking forward to '08 despite my pessimistic prognostications.

I just wishj Danny was gone and I'd feel a 1000x better.

[ChapelHillMatt]

It kills me b/c week in and week out I read people lambast Gibbs and complain about how conservative he is when I saw us call the plays that were aggressive and MISS on them (Philly in week 2 is a great example). We'd take our shot and a WR would drop the ball or Campbell would be a hair off. Had more players stepped up and made plays then the coaching staff could have trusted them to be more aggressive.



I saw us earlier in the year Campbell have a game where he completed 12 of 18 passes for 95 yards. Why was that? It's because they wouldn't let him take shots down the field.

A young QB making mistakes shouldn't have been a surprise, we all knew he was going to be inconsistant. Holding him back made no sense, he wasn't going to grow unless you let him play. When they finally opened it up he had some of his better games.

Gibbs did not have a good year as far as x's and o's goes, as far as keeping the team together after the Taylor tragedy he did a great job but he was still mediocre. In the end his 9-8 record just wasn't very good, not much you can do to spin it in a positive direction. Blaming the players doesn't really help his cause any because these are his players.

You can't on one hand give him credit for improving the talent and then on the other hand turn around and rip those same players....it doesn't make any sense.

[akhhorus]

And at the time those decisions were made, you defended or minimized virtually every one of them, including the telegraphing of the move for Campbell. I find your recent posts to be hilarious. Your posts since the season ended have bemoaned the actions of the FO, when you and I (among others) would get into terrible arguments about those moves. Now it seems that you have come around to our way of thinking on those moves, and you are pretending as if all your posts defending them at the time didn't exist. I am sure that people on this board have longer memories than that. Anyway, welcome to reality-it is nice to finally have you aboard!

It would be nice if you ever took the time to read what I wrote. We did get a lot of good players under Gibbs, we also did make some bad moves. I'm not on your side at all(reality is not being a whiny misanthrope like you clearly are). I've been bemoaning the style in which the FO has been searching for a head coach(and especially the potential of hiring Gregg Williams as head coach), I'll wait until all the chips fall before judging the results.

And for the record, about the trade for the first which became Campbell, I said that I thought it was a good deal on the premise that we would be dealing out of the #9 spot because the team needed talent badly. We tried to deal out of there, and weren't offered much(Seattle made us a meh offer of mid round picks). The failure of Gibbs & Snyderatto from telling all the parties to shut up about it is incompetence any way you want to slice it(it was clearly Campbell's agent who blabbed it btw).

[smoak]

I saw us earlier in the year Campbell have a game where he completed 12 of 18 passes for 95 yards. Why was that? It's because they wouldn't let him take shots down the field.

Remind me how did that game end again? That aside, what WR did you trust to go down field for Campbell this year? Honestly. With the O-line trying to get its legs and Moss looking as terrible as he did the week before, who do you trust? Also, you're trying to pick one game to make a case when my contention is that the plays were called and we didn't hit them. I'm not sayin we were an agressive offense and that there weren't problems (as in the game you mentioned), but Campbell's YPC was 23rd in the league (ahead of Eli Manning) and his attempts per game (above 30 ) were 15th. There were plays in the passing game that we missed and times when the coaching staff was too conservative. To blame one side is mindless IMO.

A young QB making mistakes shouldn't have been a surprise, we all knew he was going to be inconsistant. Holding him back made no sense, he wasn't going to grow unless you let him play. When they finally opened it up he had some of his better games.

This league is about winning and not about stats or developing your QB. Too many games Gibbs went conservative b/c my guess is that he trusted the defense and WAY too many time GW went into that soft zone and got eaten alive. Still, it isn't about "opening it up" with a young QB. You play to win the game (can't believe I just said that) first. Unless you are in practice every day, I'll continue to believe thew coaching staff knows a little more than you do (or I do) about what Campbell can handle.

Gibbs did not have a good year as far as x's and o's goes, as far as keeping the team together after the Taylor tragedy he did a great job but he was still mediocre. In the end his 9-8 record just wasn't very good, not much you can do to spin it in a positive direction. Blaming the players doesn't really help his cause any because these are his players.

I'm really not blaming anyone but pointing to both sides having responsibility in us falling short. At the end of the day we weren't winning 14 games if Jesus coached this team so the division was out of reach (IMO). There is no spin... Just you and those like who do nothing but dump. It was a disappointing and then tragic season. The playoff run was nice, but beating the Giants in week 3 puts us IMO on track to the #5 seed and in Green Bay for the NFC Championship. It is all speculation, but that is what I believe. So how is that spinning??? Keep dumping though...

You can't on one hand give him credit for improving the talent and then on the other hand turn around and rip those same players....it doesn't make any sense.

You are reading what I wrote or I am not articulating myself well. I blame both sides. I am just sick of the dumping on Gibbs in every flipping thread. I hear this kind of whining all the time (I live neare Philly). I'll try one more to clearly state my position:

While the Redskins fell very short of reaching their goals as a team (players AND coaches), I felt as if this was better football than we've seen in DC since 1992. There was plenty of frustration and plenty of excitement, but that is life in the NFL unless you play your home games at Gilette Stadium. I felt that we were heading in the right direction with Gibbs and his assistants (albeit slower than we would have liked) despite the problems that people like to hammer home over and over and over.

Once Gibbs decided to step down, I felt that by stressing "continuity" in the press conference, that we would keep the bulk of our staff together and give GW a shot to take the next step that elluded us to date. However, once I realized that Snder is doing a coaching overall, then I personally prefer to start blowing up the roster. The players are NOT the sole cause nor are they blamesless.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I think you're being to sensitive(no offense), we aren't dumping on Gibbs as much as we are saying he is responsible for not getting us to the next level. I don't think the Redskins are any worse off without him than we were with him because we weren't that good when he was here.

I was extremely disappointed with the product he put out there, he'd probably agree with me that he didn't do a very good job in his 4 years here.

[smoak]

I think you're being to sensitive(no offense), we aren't dumping on Gibbs as much as we are saying he is responsible for not getting us to the next level. I don't think the Redskins are any worse off without him than we were with him because we weren't that good when he was here.

I was extremely disappointed with the product he put out there, he'd probably agree with me that he didn't do a very good job in his 4 years here.

Sensitive? Maybe... Especially since every thread since October has been highjacked with anti-Gibbs comments. Literally I could post a thread about Breyers chocolate ice cream is my favorite flavor, and firing Gibbs would come up? And this is hardly the first time that I've grumbled about it either...

There is a point, and especially in a thread that is intended to just offer a little respect for Gibbs considering the circus that has been the Redskins porganization in the past three weeks. Granted it was mostly a media fueled circus, but the Redskins organization really doesn't appear competant. FOUR interviews to fire GW? Wow. Fassel feels "manipulated" and while I don't care about his feelings, I don't want my team acting unethically. Now we are back to Meeks???

Tell me you have complete confidence in Dan and Vinnie and I'll shut for good.

[ChapelHillMatt]

Tell me you have complete confidence in Dan and Vinnie and I'll shut for good.

No I can't tell you that but that has nothing to do with how I feel about the job Gibbs did. Like I said even if Gibbs would have come back I wouldn't be convinced we would be a winning team. Something is just wrong with our team, we need to find the right guy to lead us out of this mess. There is still time, we haven't hired a coach yet.

[colkurtz]

I thank Joe gibbs for coming back, HOWEVER, his tenure here had very mixed results. We were a .45 percentage team and inconsistent. We did have two improbable runs into the playoffs which saved the Gibbs II legacy. However this season was only saved by Todd Collins coming in at QB and the team playing for the memory of ST. Otherwise we were headed for mediocrity - again. Generally throughout the Gibbs II tenure we were often out-coached in games. Our coaching tended to hold us back more than hold us up.

This HC hiring process has been a circus and poorly handled. However, I've said I'll reserve final judgement until the results of the coaching selection and how we draft. Isn't the end result the key element here?

So far, I really like the choice for DC and OC. Spag, Meeks or Fassel will all be excellent to good HC choices. I'm FAR more optimistic for 2008 than if we'd had another season with Joe Gibbs as HC.

With Blanche aligned with Spag or Meeks I see us actually drafting high for the DL. We are moving to a new era and I'm optimistic about it.

[My Owner Sucks]

I'm new here. First Redskins forum. My father and I have had season tickets for about 15 years. I live in Nashville now, and haven't been able to get to as many games in the last few years.

I find this topic to be fascinating. I agree with ChapelHillMatt 100%. Except for the fact that UNC sucks, it's like he is posting every thought I have on Gibbs. It's not that I don't think Gibbs is a great person, and I believe he had good intentions. But there is absolutely no way that you can be happy with a 31-34 record. Any other coach would be getting killed. That is what makes me laugh when discussing the Redskins with a Gibbs lover. He can do no wrong. Seriously, how can you praise a losing record?

I just want a winning product. Do I honestly feel we are headed in the right direction? Gun to my head, NO. It's just a feeling that no one at the top of this organization has had any idea on how to run a football franchise for umpteen years. Why will it change now? That is what no one can explain to me. It won't change. Nothing is different. If they win a few playoff games one year, it will be lightning in a bottle. That is so frusterating to watch. Back and forth, back and forth.

There is all this talk of Gibbs bringing back stability to the organization. Where? We just fired his coordinators. So either Joe had no idea how to select and develop his assistants, didn't pick good ones in the first place, or Snyder and Vinny don't care about his input. Either way, that is DYSFUNCTIONAL!!!!! I can't blame Joe for personnel moves, because he has been mediocre at best in that department forever. That worried me from the beginning. No GM for Gibbs is poison. It's just a dark time, and I respect how optimistic everyone can be. I don't get it, but I respect it. As always, I'll root for my team when fall rolls around. However, my expectations have been tempered. I've seen this movie enough times to think the ending will dramatically change. Growing up as a Redskins fan, that is something I never thought I would have to say.

[ChapelHillMatt]

I'm new here. First Redskins forum. My father and I have had season tickets for about 15 years. I live in Nashville now, and haven't been able to get to as many games in the last few years.

I find this topic to be fascinating. I agree with ChapelHillMatt 100%. Except for the fact that UNC sucks, it's like he is posting every thought I have on Gibbs. It's not that I don't think Gibbs is a great person, and I believe he had good intentions. But there is absolutely no way that you can be happy with a 31-34 record. Any other coach would be getting killed. That is what makes me laugh when discussing the Redskins with a Gibbs lover. He can do no wrong. Seriously, how can you praise a losing record?

I just want a winning product. Do I honestly feel we are headed in the right direction? Gun to my head, NO. It's just a feeling that no one at the top of this organization has had any idea on how to run a football franchise for umpteen years. Why will it change now? That is what no one can explain to me. It won't change. Nothing is different. If they win a few playoff games one year, it will be lightning in a bottle. That is so frusterating to watch. Back and forth, back and forth.

There is all this talk of Gibbs bringing back stability to the organization. Where? We just fired his coordinators. So either Joe had no idea how to select and develop his assistants, didn't pick good ones in the first place, or Snyder and Vinny don't care about his input. Either way, that is DYSFUNCTIONAL!!!!! I can't blame Joe for personnel moves, because he has been mediocre at best in that department forever. That worried me from the beginning. No GM for Gibbs is poison. It's just a dark time, and I respect how optimistic everyone can be. I don't get it, but I respect it. As always, I'll root for my team when fall rolls around. However, my expectations have been tempered. I've seen this movie enough times to think the ending will dramatically change. Growing up as a Redskins fan, that is something I never thought I would have to say.

Good post although I could live without the screename and the bashing of a 19-1 team:)

Seriously though, the Skins have been mediocre for 16 years, almost two decades worth. It's at the point where it doesn't matter what we do, I'll have to believe it when I see it.

I hope Fassel can turn our fortunes around, goodness knows we are due for a little luck. I can't be optimistic though until I see results on the field. I mean if Gibbs, a HOF'er and one of the best coaches ever, can't fix the Redskins, who can?

[Hr fan]

I dogged Gibbs more than once in his four years here, and while those criticisms were sometimes just highlighting obvious mistakes in certain games that had nothing to do with underlying problems with the franchise (time management and such), I have to say, I'm quickly changing my opinion on just how good a job he did.

It's painfully obvious that Snyder and Vinny learned absolutely nothing in the past four years. It's also painfully obvious from reports like this:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235215

...that this organization is and has been more dysfunctional than most of us imagined.

Given how much light has been shed in the past couple of weeks on exactly what Gibbs was working with from a big-picture point of view, I find it absolutely incredible that he managed to make the playoffs in half of his seasons here. It wasn't just an improvement on what we had before. With Snyder at the helm, it was practically miraculous.

Couldn't agree more. Taking off the burgundy glasses and we have an old injury prone team with inmates running the asylum, especially in personnel matters. IMO Gibbs II was in most respects better than Gibbs I from a sheer coaching standpoint. He didn't have the players, and the injury problems and age of the starters (diminished performance steadily over the las 4 years) IMO means we were closer to 5-11 than 11-5 talentwise. That he got 2 playoff berths with this crew while constantly having to deal with a disfunctional fo is far superior to winning 3 SBs with a great owner, fo, and real talent with seemingly limitless young talented b/us.

[James F. Quinn]

Sure no problem. But you're gonna have to wait a bit because we've had a sudden increase in requests lately and are running a little late on the shipment of the membership cards. But yours should be on the way soon.
Wlecome to the club!

They will not be available until after the Super Bowl. Something about a previous contractual committment.

[colkurtz]

Couldn't agree more. Taking off the burgundy glasses and we have an old injury prone team with inmates running the asylum, especially in personnel matters. IMO Gibbs II was in most respects better than Gibbs I from a sheer coaching standpoint. He didn't have the players, and the injury problems and age of the starters (diminished performance steadily over the las 4 years) IMO means we were closer to 5-11 than 11-5 talentwise. That he got 2 playoff berths with this crew while constantly having to deal with a disfunctional fo is far superior to winning 3 SBs with a great owner, fo, and real talent with seemingly limitless young talented b/us.

1. Do you really think this team was better coached in Gibbs II than Gibbs I?

I suggest a .65 winning percentage in Gibbs I over a .45 win percentage in Gibbs II might help with that answer. How many games did Joe lose in Gibbs I era due to bone-headed calls?

2. You say "he didn't have the players" - well with a maxed out player cap every season, any draft or FA pick he wanted for four seasons - who should we blame for this problem? Gibbs had total control of the roster for 4 years.

[shally]

1. Do you really think this team was better coached in Gibbs II than Gibbs I?

I suggest a .65 winning percentage in Gibbs I over a .45 win percentage in Gibbs II might help with that answer. How many games did Joe lose in Gibbs I era due to bone-headed calls?

2. You say "he didn't have the players" - well with a maxed out player cap every season, any draft or FA pick he wanted for four seasons - who should we blame for this problem? Gibbs had total control of the roster for 4 years.

there is NO question that gibbs would not be in the HOF if judged only by his second tenure

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

He acquired the players on the roster to do it, but there were always a handful of the top dawgs out to injury... always

-Campbell will justify Gibbs

[colkurtz]

there is NO question that gibbs would not be in the HOF if judged only by his second tenure

Agreed. I appreciate everything JG has done for this organization but I'm ready for the next generation to take over. Kind of wish we'd skip the Fassel / Mooch genre and go for one of the DC/OC types.

[colkurtz]

He acquired the players on the roster to do it, but there were always a handful of the top dawgs out to injury... always

-Campbell will justify Gibbs

Understood, but when you go heavy into FA, your players tend to be older and more injury prone. Also, FA are more expensive so overall depth on the team is weak.