Williams and Saunders fired

[Skins4life]

just saw a ticker on CSN. Both are termed. We all knew, now official. Blache is named New DC.

[Lavar703]

And the crowd goes wild!!!!!! Good riddance to both

[akhhorus]

I'm not going to post it, but if you would like to hear my joke about Williams, pm me lol.

[joethefan]

it's new season and a new day

[LATrueRedskin]

Thanks for the times, Al and Gregg. Best of luck to both of you in anything you wish to do in the future.

[mexskins]

I would like to thank Gregg and Al too. They faced a lot of adversity last year. A new era begins.

Now, please do not hire Fassel

[ChapelHillMatt]

Gregg's defenses were good here, not going to be easy to replace. I hope we didn't take what he did for granted, he was a good coach.

Good luck to both of them.

[OCSkinzFan]

Thank goodness Snyder truly believes in continuity.:smash:

Oh, well. Burn it down and start over.

[skinfanjon]

And the crowd goes wild!!!!!! Good riddance to both

Yep, me too.

I wish them both the best of luck, but I won't miss either one.

[skinfanjon]

Thank goodness Snyder truly believes in continuity.:smash:

Oh, well. Burn it down and start over.

Continuity= Blatche promoted to DC and Saunders leaving so as not to start a QB controversy, but I wouldn't expect you to realize that since you've already given up on next season.

[Syllable]

couldn't be surprised though, the FO has hinted this for a good week.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

I thank GW and Al for their work also. At times, GW was at the top of his game. He is a big reason why Gibbs was able to return us to respectability.

I think AS tried and had good intentions, but he and Gibbs just didn't mesh well enough.

[HAWGZHEAD]

I hope GW took his 10yd cushions with him and that didn't rub off on Blache.

[Axegrinder]

Well, well, well......
It's about time Snyder finally told these guys.





Like him or not, at least GW always had the guts to face the media.
Thanks to him for keeping us competitive these past few years!!!

[DCassain21]

I was hoping saunders would stay for cambell's sake, as for williams i dont really care to much.

[WarEagle]

Al Davis could do a lot worse than hiring GW right now.

[RedskinsDave]

So this is continuity?

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

Continuity= Blatche promoted to DC and Saunders leaving so as not to start a QB controversy, but I wouldn't expect you to realize that since you've already given up on next season.


Right on. I think Gibbs continues to chop the dead wood behind the scene. I think they actually know what they're doing here.

[The_Sonny_Of_Sammy]

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT - "Any attempt to improve on a system that already works is pointless and may even be detrimental. Originated in the United States in the twentieth century. Government official Bert Lance (1931- ) was quoted in the May 1977 issue of 'Nation's Business' as saying, 'If it ain't broke don't fix it.' Lance's advice, according to William Safire, 'has become a source of inspiration to anti-activists.'." From "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings" (1996) by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996).

[GolfFreak]

I'm shocked it has come to this. I was on board with promoting GW and keeping Saunders as OC in order to keep the continuity. Wonder what Gibbs suggestion was to Snyder, I have a hard time believing it was this ... But I do like hearing most of the assistants will be back next year, that should keep some continuity around, even if it's just familiar faces.

[FanFromArizona]

I'm caught in between with these coaching moves, I do like that we (somewhat) kept some continuity by retaining Blache. I would like to see an aggresive defense that most of us enjoyed, I hope Blache(compared to GW) is different in that regards.

I wonder the impact of these moves on our core players and our FreeAgents.
I certainly hope that we retain Byner, because our offense starts with the run game and we need continuity there if we are to take the pressure off Campbell learning YET ANOTHER system. :devil2:

[CNYSkinFan]

I was hoping saunders would stay for cambell's sake, as for williams i dont really care to much.
i actually think this helps Campbell...Saunders and his way too complicated offense has been a hinderance to the young QB, not a help

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

Not surprised considering recent events. I wish both well.

I pray to God that Blanche and Zorn realize that the Skins need to fortify both the O and D lines.

On a side note DT Trevor Laws form Notre Dame is looking very impressive in the Senior Bowl on now.

[OCSkinzFan]

Continuity= Blatche promoted to DC and Saunders leaving so as not to start a QB controversy, but I wouldn't expect you to realize that since you've already given up on next season.


Gee I suppose you could be right, firing Saunders so that Zorn can bring in a new system and new terminology is a great way to create continuity.

Actually it might not even be Zorn's system as we don't know what the new HC will want.

But I wouldn't expect you to realize that...

[OCSkinzFan]

i actually think this helps Campbell...Saunders and his way too complicated offense has been a hinderance to the young QB, not a help

It didn't seem "way too complicated" the last 4 games of the regular season.

edit: And I don't think this helps Campbell. Dating from his freshman season at Auburn -- this will be the SEVENTH time he is being required to learn a new offense. How can that be good?

[skinfanjon]

Gee I suppose you could be right, firing Saunders so that Zorn can bring in a new system and new terminology is a great way to create continuity.

Actually it might not even be Zorn's system as we don't know what the new HC will want.

But I wouldn't expect you to realize that...

Right, the Saunders system JC flourished in /sarcasm

If you want to jump off the Woodrow Wilson bridge because we won't place a DC who has proven to be stubborn and inflexible in complete control of the team or retain an OC who clearly has never meshed with our personnel then fine, but some of us feel we are headed in the right direction.

[JasonCampbell]

Add Lazor to the fired list:

JLC:
Update II: Jason Reid reports that: assistant Bill Lazor, who coached the team's quarterbacks, has been fired, league sources said.
Lazor worked with Washington's quarterbacks the last two seasons. He developed a strong relationship with young quarterback Jason Campbell, whose development is a top priority for the organization.
Before joining the Redskins, Lazor spent the 2003 season as an entry-level assistant with the Atlanta Falcons. Lazor was a record-setting quarterback at Cornell.

[HAWGZHEAD]

Wonder if Zorn will handle the QB's himself

[Canuck]

edit: And I don't think this helps Campbell. Dating from his freshman season at Auburn -- this will be the SEVENTH time he is being required to learn a new offense. How can that be good?

This definitely helps Campbell. Campbell's biggest weaknesses right now are his footwork and he likes to hang on to the ball too long. In the WCO coaches drill proper footwork and getting rid of the ball early.

[The Skinsinator]

Wonder if Zorn will handle the QB's himselfI would imagine that would be a very safe bet.

[OCSkinzFan]

Right, the Saunders system JC flourished in /sarcasm

If you want to jump off the Woodrow Wilson bridge because we won't place a DC who has proven to be stubborn and inflexible in complete control of the team or retain an OC who clearly has never meshed with our personnel then fine, but some of us feel we are headed in the right direction.

Don't worry. I won't do anything remotely suicidal.

But I am also not delusional like you.

Here's what Jason Campbell said in '06 when he was trying to learn his sixth new offense:

"Sometimes I think about all the things I overcame to get to this point -- all the different changes and offenses -- and you always wonder how much better do you think you could be if you were just in one offense," Campbell said.

LINK (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/13/AR2006051300895.html)

[TrueOracle]

Again I ask, can you be considered an offensive juggernaut if it takes >= 3 years for your players to learn a system? Who has that much time anymore? AS had his shot now he and TC can go away together.

As far as GW is concerned, he tore his draws with me during the whole Lavar controversey... Backing that supreme gump playmaker/star hater Dale Linsey over Lavar. That worked out really well for us. And I'm simply tired of the inflexibility that was demonstrated every year prior. Thanks for the memories, I'm glad he's not our HC and I wish him luck.

Other than that, I'm not losing any sleep over this move. I especially like the Blache promotion. I'd be willing to bet the majority of the defensive staff remains.

[TrueOracle]

Don't worry. I won't do anything remotely suicidal.

But I am also not delusional like you.

Here's what Jason Campbell said in '06 when he was trying to learn his sixth new offense:

"Sometimes I think about all the things I overcame to get to this point -- all the different changes and offenses -- and you always wonder how much better do you think you could be if you were just in one offense," Campbell said.

LINK (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/13/AR2006051300895.html)

I love that quote from JC. But there's nothing to wonder about. Just look at Tom Brady for what remaining in a single system will do for your ability.

[TrueOracle]

I'd be willing to bet the majority of the defensive staff remains.

Well, I look like a master past prognosticator: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/

[OCSkinzFan]

I love that quote from JC. But there's nothing to wonder about. Just look at Tom Brady for what remaining in a single system will do for your ability.

Yep. That's my point. I'm not saying JC won't be successful next year with whatever system is implemented, but on the other hand, I won't be shocked if the O struggles next year with a new OC and HC. It's sort of expected.

In fact, I'll predict right now that someone in the media will use the term "growing pains" to describe the Redskins early next season after a loss.

[OCSkinzFan]

Well, I look like a master past prognosticator: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/

That means Campbell will have a new QB coach too.

But I'm sure that they fired Lazor so there wouldn't be a QB controversy so that there would be more CONTINUITY (as some on this board have astutely pointed out) :rolleyes:

[TrueOracle]

That means Campbell will have a new QB coach too.

But I'm sure that they fired Lazor so there wouldn't be a QB controversy so that there would be more CONTINUITY (as some on this board have astutely pointed out) :rolleyes:

Well as soon as they brought in Zorn I knew Lazor was getting the pink slip. I'm cool with it though. I mean, it's Jim Zorn. Nothing but come-uppence with that move.

[shally]

Well as soon as they brought in Zorn I knew Lazor was getting the pink slip. I'm cool with it though. I mean, it's Jim Zorn. Nothing but come-uppence with that move.


to make an omelet you need to break a few eggs.. sorry about lazor, but it is an acceptable price to land zorn. lazor will find work, he is a decent coach

[NCskinsfanatic]

I'll admit I have been more than concerened about our stafff since JG retired but perhaps this situation isnt as dire as it seemed just days ago. Blache I like alot, if he places importance on the DL and plays his cbs in the same timezone as the wrs we're already a better D IMO. Zorn Im all for, the only reason I was for keeping Al was to see if JC could take the next step and run an O like Al had in KC and St.Louis. I wanted continuity but maybe this is better in both the long and short term. If the HC is to be JF, then just announce it already not sure that either SB coordinator wants a pre hired staff so Fassel is probably Snyratto's guy. Maybe it's not so bad, i think Jim would be Wade Phillipsesque though, not a real HC. however if zorn and Blache do their jobs i guess it wont matter so much...

[Patrick]

Well - I guess we are set
Danny now assumes the HC position - he got his O & D coordinators.
Know that seems far fetched but honestly - How the :devil2: do you hire these guys and BEFORE a head coach?

[skinsfan45]

i guess i'll remain in the minority about Greg - i think they made a mistake - i wonder how all the guys will react to losing a coach they thought alot of, were comfortable with and were willing to go all out for? so much for the kind thoughts i was beginning to have for Dan...

[CNYSkinFan]

It didn't seem "way too complicated" the last 4 games of the regular season.

edit: And I don't think this helps Campbell. Dating from his freshman season at Auburn -- this will be the SEVENTH time he is being required to learn a new offense. How can that be good?
so what does it tell you that it takes a 10 year journeyman to properly run the offense?

Either Saunders did not trust JC to open it up and tanked it for his boy Collins, or itwas a crappy complicated offense that would take years to learn and no one will master


either way he had to go

[AGibbsGirl]

i guess i'll remain in the minority about Greg - i think they made a mistake - i wonder how all the guys will react to losing a coach they thought alot of, were comfortable with and were willing to go all out for? so much for the kind thoughts i was beginning to have for Dan...

Yeah me too. I was thinking what a mistake this was, but then I read this thread and realized that no one else thinks this is a bad thing...hmmm...I suppose that I am thinking too much about what the Players want and not what is good for the Redskins????

On pins and needles to know who the new HC is going to be though....

[CNYSkinFan]

Yeah me too. I was thinking what a mistake this was, but then I read this thread and realized that no one else thinks this is a bad thing...hmmm...I suppose that I am thinking too much about what the Players want and not what is good for the Redskins????

On pins and needles to know who the new HC is going to be though....
i they did not hire Blache, maybe, but Blache is rehired same with olivadotti, most of the defensive assistants are rehired it will mean continuity.

On offense there will be a shakeup...fine it wasn't really working anyway. I never bought the Saunders offense...it could not sustain leads and did not work well half the time.

I am excited about a new offense. AN OC who comes in and builds an offense around Campbell Cooley and CP is what we need, not someone who needs a 10 year build up to learn the offense. ERven Brunell had difficulties learning the offense and he is one of the more cerebral QBs in the league.

[AGibbsGirl]

i they did not hire Blache, maybe, but Blache is rehired same with olivadotti, most of the defensive assistants are rehired it will mean continuity.

On offense there will be a shakeup...fine it wasn't really working anyway. I never bought the Saunders offense...it could not sustain leads and did not work well half the time.

I am excited about a new offense. AN OC who comes in and builds an offense around Campbell Cooley and CP is what we need, not someone who needs a 10 year build up to learn the offense. ERven Brunell had difficulties learning the offense and he is one of the more cerebral QBs in the league.

This makes me feel better, thanks

And, of course, you all know how I feel about Saunders...buh bye Al! Don't let the door hitcha' in the a...er butt on the way out!

[WarEagle]

Yeah me too. I was thinking what a mistake this was, but then I read this thread and realized that no one else thinks this is a bad thing...hmmm...I suppose that I am thinking too much about what the Players want and not what is good for the Redskins????

On pins and needles to know who the new HC is going to be though....


I think a lot of fans (maybe even me) had a thirst for "change." I was squarely in Greg's corner, because his defense did really well, but it just ain't gonna happen now. I'm on pins and needles, too. :D The Zorn hire excited a lot of folks. Bummer that we might have to wait until after the Super Bowl to see the new HC introduced. That would be one press conference that I'd have to watch live on redskins.com!

[AGibbsGirl]

Bummer that we might have to wait until after the Super Bowl to see the new HC introduced. That would be one press conference that I'd have to watch live on redskins.com!

Yeah, I heard on the radio (probably been posted here somewhere) that the Skins will be able to talk to a couple of the coaches from the Giants and the Pats after the SB

[OCSkinzFan]

so what does it tell you that it takes a 10 year journeyman to properly run the offense?

Either Saunders did not trust JC to open it up and tanked it for his boy Collins, or itwas a crappy complicated offense that would take years to learn and no one will master


either way he had to go

Yea, his offense is so crappy and complicated that dating back to 2001 when Saunders took over as offensive coordinator, the Chiefs ranked first in the NFL with 30,470 net yards of total offense (379.3 ypg). The Chiefs' numbers during that 80-game span from 2001-05 are also the league's best in the following seven categories: offensive TDs (262), rushing TDs (131), total first downs (1,760), Red Zone TD percentage (64.1%), runs of 10+ yards (312), passing yards per attempt (7.83) and passing yards per completion (12.61).

In 2005, Saunders led the Kansas City Chiefs offense to a number one overall ranking in the NFL for the second consecutive season. The most explosive offense in the NFL led the League with 70 total plays over 20 yards including an NFL-high 15 touchdowns. Kansas City also led the league in yards per play (5.85) and topped the NFL in eight other offensive categories.

Campbell's poor execution had NOTHING to do it...

[CNYSkinFan]

Yea, his offense is so crappy and complicated that dating back to 2001 when Saunders took over as offensive coordinator, the Chiefs ranked first in the NFL with 30,470 net yards of total offense (379.3 ypg). The Chiefs' numbers during that 80-game span from 2001-05 are also the league's best in the following seven categories: offensive TDs (262), rushing TDs (131), total first downs (1,760), Red Zone TD percentage (64.1%), runs of 10+ yards (312), passing yards per attempt (7.83) and passing yards per completion (12.61).

In 2005, Saunders led the Kansas City Chiefs offense to a number one overall ranking in the NFL for the second consecutive season. The most explosive offense in the NFL led the League with 70 total plays over 20 yards including an NFL-high 15 touchdowns. Kansas City also led the league in yards per play (5.85) and topped the NFL in eight other offensive categories.

Campbell's poor execution had NOTHING to do it...
ugh...this has been said many times, but I will say it again:

Saunders had some of the premier running backs, tes, and ol to run his offense in KC. Instead of adapting to less talent and a younger QB he expected to run the same offense. In two years it failed to materialize.\

If Saunders was such an offensive genius, why did he never get offered a HC spot...anywhere? Maybe because he is abrasive, obtuse, and unwilling to change. That is great when you have a borderline HOF qb in Trent Green, HOF TE in Gonzalez and two HOF worthy rbs in holmes and then Johnson. As well as Will shields and a ton of talent on OL.

Your love affair with Saunders is unwarranted. He is a poor man's Mike Martz and can not develop young QBs.

[OCSkinzFan]

to make an omelet you need to break a few eggs.. sorry about lazor, but it is an acceptable price to land zorn. lazor will find work, he is a decent coach
How many coaches on the O do you expect to stay? Byner is loved by Clinton Portis but his contract is up this year and we haven't heard anything yet. And there's a good chance Buges is out. Breaux has been gone for years now. Rennie Simmons is about 85 years old. My guess is a tabula rasa for the whole O coaching staff (except for maybe -hopefully Byner who's done a great job IMO).

That's a lotta eggs there.

[OCSkinzFan]

ugh...this has been said many times, but I will say it again:

Saunders had some of the premier running backs, tes, and ol to run his offense in KC. Instead of adapting to less talent and a younger QB he expected to run the same offense. In two years it failed to materialize.\

If Saunders was such an offensive genius, why did he never get offered a HC spot...anywhere? Maybe because he is abrasive, obtuse, and unwilling to change. That is great when you have a borderline HOF qb in Trent Green, HOF TE in Gonzalez and two HOF worthy rbs in holmes and then Johnson. As well as Will shields and a ton of talent on OL.

Your love affair with Saunders is unwarranted. He is a poor man's Mike Martz and can not develop young QBs.

So Campbell is no Trent Green then, right?

Look I'm not in Love with Saunders but I also don't like how fickle people can be. The truth is, if Cambell's grasp of Saunders' offense was better we wouldn't be having this conversation. Snyder and Cerreto obviously think that Campbell's talent is being waisted with the current staff and wanted to bring in Zorn to "fix" Campbell. I'm just not totally on board with that concept. I think they should have stuck with Saunders for another year just to give Campbell more experience in the SAME system.

[smoak]

I just wish I knew Gibbs' recommendations as I trust his opinions... I despise Snyder and he has made this entire process into a circus. I'm all for starting fresh, but don't come out and preach "continuity". I also have no idea why people are so excited about Zorn or Blache...

[Red Bear]

How many coaches on the O do you expect to stay? Byner is loved by Clinton Portis but his contract is up this year and we haven't heard anything yet. And there's a good chance Buges is out. Breaux has been gone for years now. Rennie Simmons is about 85 years old. My guess is a tabula rasa for the whole O coaching staff (except for maybe -hopefully Byner who's done a great job IMO).

That's a lotta eggs there.

rumors say byner will be gone and buges will stay, as far as im concerned we can replace breaux and simmons, and i think its jack burns that has been gone for years, bill lazor is gone as well.

So Campbell is no Trent Green then, right?

Look I'm not in Love with Saunders but I also don't like how fickle people can be. The truth is, if Cambell's grasp of Saunders' offense was better we wouldn't be having this conversation. Snyder and Cerreto obviously think that Campbell's talent is being waisted with the current staff and wanted to bring in Zorn to "fix" Campbell. I'm just not totally on board with that concept. I think they should have stuck with Saunders for another year just to give Campbell more experience in the SAME system.

what good is one more year in the same system if youre gonna change it the year after anyways? no good, so nows the time to change the offense since we are a team in transition...

[OCSkinzFan]

rumors say byner will be gone and buges will stay, as far as im concerned we can replace breaux and simmons, and i think its jack burns that has been gone for years, bill lazor is gone as well.



what good is one more year in the same system if youre gonna change it the year after anyways? no good, so nows the time to change the offense since we are a team in transition...

Well if it was successful next year obviously you wouldn't change it. That's the point. I'm sure Campbell would even want to stay in the same system for another year.

[bigcmr]

Al Saunders was going to hold back JC. Keep in mind JC was always a Gibbs guy Gibbs drafted him when Saunders wasnt even on the team. 700 page play book? Never caught on.

Gregg Williams he did a great job at times. But there where times where he never made adjustments. And his obsessions with DBs and neglect of getting D-line worried me.

Good luck and don't be sad you guys got paid more that some head coaches.

[JasonCampbell]

Lazor not fired yet:

JLC
Updating Update II: Jason Reid now reports that the new head coach will decide the fate of assistant Bill Lazor, who coached the team's quarterbacks, sources said. Earlier, it was believed that Lazor had been let go.
Lazor worked with Washington's quarterbacks the last two seasons. He developed a strong relationship with young quarterback Jason Campbell, whose development is a top priority for the organization.
Before joining the Redskins, Lazor spent the 2003 season as an entry-level assistant with the Atlanta Falcons. Lazor was a record-setting quarterback at Cornell.

[LuvSkins17]

As we all well know,.... Winning cures everything. Who's to say that with a "healthy" O Line we can't have a successful Offensive system. Hell, it's all football. Block, run, pass and catch... If everyone does their assignments, the proper "plays" are called at the right time and executed crisp, we will have success.

We suffered this season from a unhealthy O line and plays being called at the wrong times... We will be ok if we are healthy. I don't care if the players don't "buy into" the changes,........ they are paid professionals and they are hired to do a job.

It's so simple that it's funny actually.

If I get a new boss at my job and I don't like the changes, I have to change or leave. I can sit and do my job "with my mouth poked out" but that would be stupid. Why spend most of my day in a place that I chose to be and be stubborn. It takes less effort to just leave honestly. Everyone needs to embrace the change and bust their butts to keep their jobs.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Lazor not fired yet:

JLC

I think Lazor and Zorn should spend the next week getting to know each other. The HC should make the decision, but Zorn's word should carry a lot of weight.

[skinsfan36]

good luck to gw and al wherever they go. gw would of been better if he wasnt so stubborn

[jtovb2005]

As we all well know,.... Winning cures everything. Who's to say that with a "healthy" O Line we can't have a successful Offensive system. Hell, it's all football. Block, run, pass and catch... If everyone does their assignments, the proper "plays" are called at the right time and executed crisp, we will have success.

We suffered this season from a unhealthy O line and plays being called at the wrong times... We will be ok if we are healthy. I don't care if the players don't "buy into" the changes,........ they are paid professionals and they are hired to do a job.

It's so simple that it's funny actually.

If I get a new boss at my job and I don't like the changes, I have to change or leave. I can sit and do my job "with my mouth poked out" but that would be stupid. Why spend most of my day in a place that I chose to be and be stubborn. It takes less effort to just leave honestly. Everyone needs to embrace the change and bust their butts to keep their jobs.

Fully agree with this. I never understood the preocupation of "the play book is too hard" and so on. This is these guys jobs. Figure it out. Change has happened on many teams, sometimes for the better sometimes not.

"Block, run, pass and catch..." Just do it.

[KidBroSweets]

Fully agree with this. I never understood the preocupation of "the play book is too hard" and so on. This is these guys jobs. Figure it out. Change has happened on many teams, sometimes for the better sometimes not.

"Block, run, pass and catch..." Just do it.

The playbook is 700 pages long.......Im guuueeeeessing it miiiiiiiiiiiight be kinda tough to learn it. Not saying you cant, but Im sure it takes a long time. These players are human beings.

[jtovb2005]

The playbook is 700 pages long.......Im guuueeeeessing it miiiiiiiiiiiight be kinda tough to learn it. Not saying you cant, but Im sure it takes a long time. These players are human beings.

I don't know if it got to be that long the day he showed up at Redskins park but if not some players on his other teams did not seem to have any problem with it.

I am just saying it comes down to executing. The other teams have been more times than we have as our record shows. Coaches also need to make use of the players they have not some dream of who they want. I blame all involved almost evenly.

[smoak]

Fully agree with this. I never understood the preocupation of "the play book is too hard" and so on. This is these guys jobs. Figure it out. Change has happened on many teams, sometimes for the better sometimes not.

"Block, run, pass and catch..." Just do it.

While I also absolutely agree, I think we are oversimplifing it a bit. The players not only have to know the offense, but it has to be second n ature. You need to get them to the point where they don't have to think and my guess is that it'll take some time.... Like Holmgren said, it takes 3 years to learn a WCO, and while we may tailor this to fit JC, it will take some time to learn. As when Al stepped in, there will be an adjustment period.

[JasonCampbell]

Interesting post by JLC on the firing of Williams and Saunders:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/

Here is the part I find interesting:
Anyway, I feel bad for Al because he was always handcuffed here by Gibbs and his long-time assistants. Team sources said Saunders was not even a part of some planning meetings and there were very much two factions within the offensive staff, players and coaches said, with Saunders, his son Bob and Lazor often the outsiders. Gibbs and his guys set the table and had strong feelings about offensive philosophy that did not always mesh with Al's system ... yet Al was the guy calling the plays.

And Al did call the plays, but Gibbs made it clear what he believed in, with the heavy emphasis on the run game in certain game plans, etc. Gibbs also picked the Qbs, etc. So again, the deck was stacked against Al. But I also think Saunders should have found a way to focus more on the assets of young QB, eliminate chunks of the playbook and focus more on what fit the personnel.

There was too much volume, veteran players said, with hybrids of West Coast stuff, Coryell stuff, power running. If you get it down, it's awesome. But these guys never got it fully.

Also, the practices were not nearly catered enough to a young QB, players and coaches aid, as I wrote about in the paper late in the season. That's on Gibbs - was his domain - and no one else. The special situations late in games, going live in those pressure situations in practice and focusing on what was acrushing the team late in games was not emphasized nearly enough, numerous players and coaches said.

[bergiemoore]

Interesting post by JLC on the firing of Williams and Saunders:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/

Here is the part I find interesting:

Yeah, part of the reason I was originally excited to see Gibbs leave was the hope of seeing the Saunders' offense without the Gibbs filter. I am disappointed that the Snyderrato is forcing him out.

[Biggie]

I haven't been on the site much for a couple days, so I never really said goodbye to Al and Gregg.

So, bye. Al, thanks for trying, and Gregg, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Interesting post by JLC on the firing of Williams and Saunders:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/

Here is the part I find interesting:

And you wonder why we didn't have much success on offense...:rolleyes:

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I haven't been on the site much for a couple days, so I never really said goodbye to Al and Gregg.

So, bye. Al, thanks for trying, and Gregg, don't let the door hit you on your way out.
...and putting up with everything that you obviously had to put up with. As for Gregg..uhm..whatever. See ya.

[shally]

The playbook is 700 pages long.......Im guuueeeeessing it miiiiiiiiiiiight be kinda tough to learn it. Not saying you cant, but Im sure it takes a long time. These players are human beings.

confusion causes hesistation, which is a killer for any offense or defense

part of the reason for the increased effectiveness of GW's defense this year was that it was far simpler in scheme

AS was never able to accomplish the same on offense. it is telling that they didnt even let JC run the no huddle for half the season. what does that say about your ability to craft a scheme that best utilizes the players you ACTUALLY have on your roster ?

as little fun as it will be for JC to learn yet another scheme, i think he will be far better under zorn than under AS for yet another year. you could see the gleem in AS's eyes when he finally got a chance to run his scheme, with HIS qb.. we were headed for a rocky year next year with the same combo..
AS should fare far better in st loo with bulger, if that is where he ends up.. but, the rams better spend multiple draft picks and free agent dollars on their o line or the results will be awful anyway

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Trent Green didn't seem to have any problems running Saunders's offense as soon as they got together in Kansas City (even though at the time Green had started less than 20 games in the NFL).....

[shally]

...and putting up with everything that you obviously had to put up with. As for Gregg..uhm..whatever. See ya.

a lot of it is on gibbs.. a lot of it on saunders..they were misfit from the start and neither found a way to help JC develop as well as he could have

[shally]

Trent Green didn't seem to have any problems running Saunders's offense as soon as they got together in Kansas City (even though at the time Green had started less than 20 games in the NFL).....

trent green was a mature, developed qb by the time he got to KC..PLUS he had arguably the best o line in the nfl to work behind

still, if you see that JC is no trent green, then you take out 600 or so pages and taylor the offense to your qb.. that was something AS never did

[SpicyMcHaggis]

a lot of it is on gibbs.. a lot of it on saunders..they were misfit from the start and neither found a way to help JC develop as well as he could have
I think the vast majority is on Gibbs. I have no idea what he was thinking when he decided first to hire Saunders and then to not let him run the offense like he wanted. Like many things that have happened in the recent past at Redskins Park, it made no sense whatsoever.

[shally]

I think the vast majority is on Gibbs. I have no idea what he was thinking when he decided first to hire Saunders and then to not let him run the offense like he wanted. Like many things that have happened in the recent past at Redskins Park, it made no sense whatsoever.

totally agree on that point.. if you are going to hire a guy to run the offense, dont take it out of his hands every third or 4th down..

that was pure gibbs bungling

on the other hand, i feel that AS was NEVER comfortable with the concept of JC as starting qb, and made life that much more difficult for JC than it had to be
by keeping too many pages inhis playbook.. he was totally rigid and inflexible

[SpicyMcHaggis]

totally agree on that point.. if you are going to hire a guy to run the offense, dont take it out of his hands every third or 4th down..

that was pure gibbs bungling

on the other hand, i feel that AS was NEVER comfortable with the concept of JC as starting qb, and made life that much more difficult for JC than it had to be
by keeping too many pages inhis playbook.. he was totally rigid and inflexible
Which was a topic that should have been handled BEFORE hiring Saunders. It should have been the first thing that Gibbs asked him: "How do you feel about Campbell?" If the answer was not extremely positive, then do not hire him.

[CNYSkinFan]

Trent Green didn't seem to have any problems running Saunders's offense as soon as they got together in Kansas City (even though at the time Green had started less than 20 games in the NFL).....
And I contedn that Saunders 700 page playbook was probably less comp[licated then. it got more and more complicated over time as KC kept the same relative people and grew the offense. he then brought that behemoth of a playbook here and refused to tailor it to the personell he had running it all the while ishing he could start noodle arm.

Did he personally tank games to get Collins in? Probably not. But He sure seemed to open up the playbook for him when he got in. and some of those plays (simple rb screens) should have been in JC's rep from day one

[CNYSkinFan]

Which was a topic that should have been handled BEFORE hiring Saunders. It should have been the first thing that Gibbs asked him: "How do you feel about Campbell?" If the answer was not extremely positive, then do not hire him.
I think that was Danny and Vinny. That moved smelled of incompetence the whole way. The Musgrave offense of 2005 was working just fine untilk Brunell got hurt. Jc could have run that offense to perfection but Danny wanted a new toy

[SpicyMcHaggis]

And I contedn that Saunders 700 page playbook was probably less comp[licated then. it got more and more complicated over time as KC kept the same relative people and grew the offense. he then brought that behemoth of a playbook here and refused to tailor it to the personell he had running it all the while ishing he could start noodle arm.

Did he personally tank games to get Collins in? Probably not. But He sure seemed to open up the playbook for him when he got in. and some of those plays (simple rb screens) should have been in JC's rep from day one
This could all be very true. In which case, since Gibbs obviously had to know what was going on, he should have gotten rid of Saunders immediately.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I think that was Danny and Vinny. That moved smelled of incompetence the whole way. The Musgrave offense of 2005 was working just fine untilk Brunell got hurt. Jc could have run that offense to perfection but Danny wanted a new toy
But I thought that Gibbs had tought Danny how to be a great owner (and Vinny how to count to 10)? ;)

[shally]

I think that was Danny and Vinny. That moved smelled of incompetence the whole way. The Musgrave offense of 2005 was working just fine untilk Brunell got hurt. Jc could have run that offense to perfection but Danny wanted a new toy

sorry.. but i dont put that one on snyder/cerrato.. that one is purely on gibbs

nobody was going to push him aside and substitute a different offense than his. i think gibbs recognized his limitations in crafting an offense for the modern nfl.
the problem was after he got AS, he tried to straddle things and never was comfortable giving over the reins to AS completely. that is on gibbs. it is akin to being unable to walk on either the right side or the left side of the highway and walking right down the middle.
purely on gibbs...

[shally]

This could all be very true. In which case, since Gibbs obviously had to know what was going on, he should have gotten rid of Saunders immediately.

exactly.. it was a bad marriage right from the start. gibbs should have simply said, "my bad! " and sent AS off with a nice settlement from snyder. the front office would have backed him 100 % in that

or
do what fassel did to sean payton. keep him on the team for the remainder of the year but strip him of playcalling duties

one way or the other, it was gibbs mistake to correct, and he never did

[colkurtz]

sorry.. but i dont put that one on snyder/cerrato.. that one is purely on gibbs

nobody was going to push him aside and substitute a different offense than his. i think gibbs recognized his limitations in crafting an offense for the modern nfl.
the problem was after he got AS, he tried to straddle things and never was comfortable giving over the reins to AS completely. that is on gibbs. it is akin to being unable to walk on either the right side or the left side of the highway and walking right down the middle.
purely on gibbs...

You're exactly right. gibbs felt he wasn't up to the OC standards anymore [remember how many delay of game calls we had?] so he brought in AS. But he never gave AS total control of the offensive game - so it ended up being a hybrid which didn't score enough points.

Gibbs made those decisions, but since they didn't work out - some want to cast them onto Danny Snyder. Gibbs was in total control with very mixed results.

[OCSkinzFan]

And I contedn that Saunders 700 page playbook was probably less comp[licated then. it got more and more complicated over time as KC kept the same relative people and grew the offense. he then brought that behemoth of a playbook here and refused to tailor it to the personell he had running it all the while ishing he could start noodle arm.

Did he personally tank games to get Collins in? Probably not. But He sure seemed to open up the playbook for him when he got in. and some of those plays (simple rb screens) should have been in JC's rep from day one

On the one hand Shally is saying AC was inflexable and didn't change the play calling to fit JC and then you're saying he opened up the playcalling for Collins but should have for JC.

Ya know what. If JC didn't play as well as an over the hill back-up, I'm not gonna put that on AC. YOU and I don't know all the check downs that JC didn't do that Collins did.

I think there's a lot of speculation about what AC did or did not do re: the play calling, but I know for a fact that one of the things JC had a problem with was the quick release before a reciever made his break. That was the difference between Collins and JC. Collins knew what spot to throw to. JC was trying to hit the reciever all year. That wasn't AC's fault. Should AC have adjusted to fit JC? How about expecting a professional QB to make the throws you ask him to WHEN you ask him to?

Oh well doesn't matter now.

Now we just get to see if JC can learn his seventh O in almost as many years. Oh and now we get to find out if JC can run a West Coast O.

I sure hope he can.... for his sake and Zorn's sake.