Grooming 2 Rookie WR..PRO or CON???

[MONK_in_HOF]

Now that the draft has passed and we have used 2 high picks on WRs, how will having two impact each other's development?
Considering we already have 1 starter in Moss on the team, and unless Randle El is relegated to mainly special teams, these two will most likely be competing for the same PT, unless we implement a system that is predominantly 4 wr sets.

So the question is will having both be beneficial or a detriment to their development? Curious on thoughts on this.

[AliBabba]

I heard they are overjoyed and actually had each other's initials tattooed yesterday

[coffdogg]

Now that the draft has passed and we have used 2 high picks on WRs, how will having two impact each other's development?
Considering we already have 1 starter in Moss on the team, and unless Randle El is relegated to mainly special teams, these two will most likely be competing for the same PT, unless we implement a system that is predominantly 4 wr sets.

So the question is will having both be beneficial or a detriment to their development? Curious on thoughts on this.I think it will be fine. They can be used together or in separate packages and they don't have the onus on them to be "The Man". Also think that if they develop enough this year either Moss or ARE will be shipped next year meaning they go to the 2 and 3 respectively. I was thinking is was overkill at first but now I have to say I am pretty stoked.

[Patrick]

Now that the draft has passed and we have used 2 high picks on WRs, how will having two impact each other's development?
Considering we already have 1 starter in Moss on the team, and unless Randle El is relegated to mainly special teams, these two will most likely be competing for the same PT, unless we implement a system that is predominantly 4 wr sets.

So the question is will having both be beneficial or a detriment to their development? Curious on thoughts on this.

Looks to me that the Skins address the #3, #4 wide out position. Thrash is probably on his way out, BL was released, and Mix is not going to get as much of a chance that we were led to believe (IMO). Now - IF one of the two draft picks accels then ARE might me slipping to the #3 or #4 spot. Will be interesting to see how it works out.

[Hrabanmaur]

I hope they'll develop a tight bond. The competition for positions should prevent either from sitting back on their development. I see this as a good thing. Besides, if you look at the Seattle receivers, the position of the receiver doesn't necessarily dictate their production.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I think it will be fine. They can be used together or in separate packages and they don't have the onus on them to be "The Man". Also think that if they develop enough this year either Moss or ARE will be shipped next year meaning they go to the 2 and 3 respectively. I was thinking is was overkill at first but now I have to say I am pretty stoked.

I also think that if both look to be panning out that Randle El's days are numbered (actually I think his days are numbered regardless considering his pay vs performance). Also agree neither have to be "the man" but WR is a position known for having big egos in the NFL. At some point if both start having a some success is it possible both may feel they should be "the man"? My feeling is that won't become a problem unless both perform well while the Redskins as a team struggle. Or unless one turns into a drama queen like TO.

[AustinSkins]

It's going to make for some great training camp competition. I'm pretty excited about bringing on some youth and size in a West Coast Offense.

I love the punter selection. Hopefully we can pick up a stud DE on free agency.

[native skin]

I think it will be fine. They can be used together or in separate packages and they don't have the onus on them to be "The Man". Also think that if they develop enough this year either Moss or ARE will be shipped next year meaning they go to the 2 and 3 respectively. I was thinking is was overkill at first but now I have to say I am pretty stoked.

I completely agree with you. Kelly can play! And if Thomas continues to grow into the dominant receiver he was this year at Michigan state we are going to have a very scary receiving core, with or without Moss and ARE.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I hope they'll develop a tight bond. The competition for positions should prevent either from sitting back on their development. I see this as a good thing. Besides, if you look at the Seattle receivers, the position of the receiver doesn't necessarily dictate their production.

I am hoping for the same thing. I hope it breeds competition and pushes them to maximize their abilities.
I guess my fear is that 1 could start really fast and leave the other in the wake and hinder development due to lack of involvment. Or that a lack of PT could result in sulking, ala Brandon Lloyd, and questioning why more PT isn't being given.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Now that the draft has passed and we have used 2 high picks on WRs, how will having two impact each other's development?
Considering we already have 1 starter in Moss on the team, and unless Randle El is relegated to mainly special teams, these two will most likely be competing for the same PT, unless we implement a system that is predominantly 4 wr sets.

So the question is will having both be beneficial or a detriment to their development? Curious on thoughts on this.

I think the main issue here is that not only do we have 4 receivers in which we have invested heavily on, but we also have a Pro-Bowl TE, another TE picked in between those two receivers, and a 300carry RB.

Aside from the ability (or potential) of all those players, there is simply no way that there will be enough balls to satisfy the needs of all those players. Which means that either one or two of the rookies will not have a chance to fulfill their potential, or one or two of the players already on the roster will have a very tough season ahead of him.

Keep in mind that the single season record for passes attempted by a QB, in a year in which his RB had at least 250 carries (which I am assuming will be the absolute minimum for Portis this year) is 636 by Bledsoe in 1995. And the most passes Matt Hasselbeck has ever attempted in his career is 562 in 2007.
So, assuming that our offense does not become a juggernaut overnight, and considering the not-yet HOF level of play of our young QB, I think it would be realistic to assume between 500 and 550 passes attempted next year by our offense. At a 60-62% completion rate, which is pretty good, and more or less what we should expect, that translates into about 325-350 completions.
Take away the receptions by everyone that is not WRs 1-4 and TEs 1-2, and you are looking at about about 275 repections by those 6 skill players. That, in a condition of extreme balance, is 45 per player. But if you have somebody, like Cooley and Moss for example, that gets up in the 65-70 range, then you immediately find yourself with one or two of those rookies with only 20-25 catches on the season. Which would hardly justify a second round selection.

What would make most sense IMO is to deal either Moss or ARE for defensive line help. Ideally before the beginning of the season, but if nothing interesting in terms of DE or DT becomes available, no later than next season.

[MONK_in_HOF]

What would make most sense IMO is to deal either Moss or ARE for defensive line help. Ideally before the beginning of the season, but if nothing interesting in terms of DE or DT becomes available, no later than next season.[/B]

Even though I think this does make sense, I am not sure what we could get for Moss, and I doubt any team would be willing to deal for Randle El with his current contract.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Even though I think this does make sense, I am not sure what we could get for Moss, and I doubt any team would be willing to deal for Randle El with his current contract.

That's the problem. Also, any team that would deal with us for either of them would know that we are pretty desperate to 1)get rid of the player, and 2)get defensive help. So we would not be an ideal situation.

But I think it's absolutely utopical to think we can keep all those 6 guys around for more than 1 season without one or two of them either vastly underperforming or being extremely unhappy.

[shally]

no problems expected... the learning curve is such for wideouts and tight ends, that it should be towards the latter portions of the season at earliest before their impacts are felt..
study hard guys, your time will come to shine in seasons to come...

[firehawk157]

Moss could probably be gotten for around a 2nd rounder I think or equal talent. As far as who may be out there for that level compensation, I don't know. But that puts the onus on the rookie guys to be the #1 right away.

The thing you are missing is injuries. How many games did we have where Randle El and Moss were both in at the same time (and both played a full game). How many games were they both out? The rookies will get plenty of playing time. About 40-50 catches is what you should aim for I think for the rookies. If they do well, than move down Randle El and entertain trade offers for Moss.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Moss could probably be gotten for around a 2nd rounder I think or equal talent. As far as who may be out there for that level compensation, I don't know. But that puts the onus on the rookie guys to be the #1 right away.

The thing you are missing is injuries. How many games did we have where Randle El and Moss were both in at the same time (and both played a full game). How many games were they both out? The rookies will get plenty of playing time. About 40-50 catches is what you should aim for I think for the rookies. If they do well, than move down Randle El and entertain trade offers for Moss.
That's just it. Unless Moss, ARE, and Cooley all have sub-par seasons, 40-50 catches for all 3 of them is next to impossible.

[firehawk157]

That's the problem. Also, any team that would deal with us for either of them would know that we are pretty desperate to 1)get rid of the player, and 2)get defensive help. So we would not be an ideal situation.

But I think it's absolutely utopical to think we can keep all those 6 guys around for more than 1 season without one or two of them either vastly underperforming or being extremely unhappy.
Likely trading partners would be desparate for receiver help too though so that chip is held by both sides. The Titans and Saints are ideal partners and they both need some talent at some level and have good players to trade.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Likely trading partners would be desparate for receiver help too though so that chip is held by both sides. The Titans and Saints are ideal partners and they both need some talent at some level and have good players to trade.

Then I hope Vinny is on the line with them right now.

[firehawk157]

That's just it. Unless Moss, ARE, and Cooley all have sub-par seasons, 40-50 catches for all 3 of them is next to impossible.
No, I just meant for the receivers (should have clarified), a good target for the rookie should be 20 catches or so. There will be pass plays where he will be called on to block (as a matter of fact, I think this will be his primary role for the next season). 120 catches which will leave 220 left to split between the rest of the crew. Assuming 70 for Moss and Cooley, and 50 for El, you have 30 for the 5th receiver, Portis, Betts and Sellers, which sounds about right.

[firehawk157]

Then I hope Vinny is on the line with them right now.
I don't like the idea of trading Moss quite yet. Randle El is FAR from a #1 receiver and to expect these guys to come in and provide that immediately is a reach. To trade Moss this year would be akin to throwing the year away.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

No, I just meant for the receivers (should have clarified), a good target for the rookie should be 20 catches or so. There will be pass plays where he will be called on to block (as a matter of fact, I think this will be his primary role for the next season). 120 catches which will leave 220 left to split between the rest of the crew. Assuming 70 for Moss and Cooley, and 50 for El, you have 30 for the 5th receiver, Portis, Betts and Sellers, which sounds about right.
Portis should have about 30 by himself. Roughly 35-40 has been his average throughout his career.
And 340 completions seems a bit high for Campbell, considering that aside from his 352 last season, Hasselbeck's previous high is 313.

But even assuming your numbers are correct, do 20 catches by what is primarily a receiving TE justify a second round selection?

[Skinz4lyfe]

I like the idea of developing 2 rookie receivers. Heck our current receivers haven't shown the ability to stay healthy in quite some time therefore the more the merrier. Plus given these rookies are a better fit for the offense we'll be running, I'm all for it. They can push each other to do better. In addition, it generally takes receivers 3 years to truly develop. By that time Moss and ARE might have lost a step and we would have already had our guys ready to step in immediately and produce. I'm all for it.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I don't like the idea of trading Moss quite yet. Randle El is FAR from a #1 receiver and to expect these guys to come in and provide that immediately is a reach. To trade Moss this year would be akin to throwing the year away.

Unfortunately El has yet to prove to be a #2 WR.

[firehawk157]

I wasn't defending picking Davis with a 2nd, but he was picked because he also has considerable blocking capability. His presence will draw off coverage (a small bit) or punish those who don't account for him and provide an extra guy in to block so Cooley doesn't have to stay in there.

[Hrabanmaur]

What would make most sense IMO is to deal either Moss or ARE for defensive line help. Ideally before the beginning of the season, but if nothing interesting in terms of DE or DT becomes available, no later than next season.

Whoa! Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Yes, these two rooks look like good prospects, but we have no idea how well they'll translate to or pick up the game at the pro level. The success rates of WR aren't that great, and one of these guys could very well flop or be relegated to insignificance (like our last second round WR pick). For the moment, we have depth at WR, but I think we have to wait for AT LEAST one season to see how they're developing and how their health holds up before trading Moss or Randle El. What if we trade Moss, and both prospects end up being flops? Then we're left with Randle El as our starting WR...yikes!

[firehawk157]

Unfortunately El has yet to prove to be a #2 WR.
I agree but some people would argue that he's a borderline #2 that's just better for the slot. Either way, if we get rid of Moss, we are now expecting one of the three other guys to step up and be a #1. Randle El is FAR from a #1 since he's barely a #2 and to expect a rookie to be #1 is stupid.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Whoa! Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Yes, these two rooks look like good prospects, but we have no idea how well they'll translate to or pick up the game at the pro level. The success rates of WR aren't that great, and one of these guys could very well flop or be relegated to insignificance (like our last second round WR pick). For the moment, we have depth at WR, but I think we have to wait for AT LEAST one season to see how they're developing and how their health holds up before trading Moss or Randle El. What if we trade Moss, and both prospects end up being flops? Then we're left with Randle El as our starting WR...yikes!
Well, I was reasoning under the assumption that all 3 picks turn out to be good players for two reasons:
1)since we had many pressing needs, picking 2 receivers and a TE in the second round if we aren't 100% sure (well, at least as sure as one can be) that they will be good players would be retarded.
2)if any of them turns out to be a bust, then it's a bad pick, period. No need to say anything more about it.

Trading them next season would be more on the safe side, whereas traiding one of them this year would probably be a higher risk/higher reward situation.

[whitskins]

We need to make sure that these new guys can actually play first before we consider pushing out the vets like Moss and/or ARE. These guys will probably come along slowly, so we need Moss and El to hold down the fort while the youngsters develop. For now, let's use the numbers to our advantage.

Also, the receptions hypothesizing assumes that all parties involved are healthy for all 16 games. While this would be wonderful, it's unlikely for Moss and ARE to avoid their usual nicks. And thankfully Cooley has had a clean bill of health so far, but until now we had very little behind him. Yoder is 30 and has 8 catches in the past two years.

Let's see how this offense progresses for a year before dreaming up trade scenarios. We need either Thomas or Kelly to become an established star before unloading a proven commodity.

[MONK_in_HOF]

Well, I was reasoning under the assumption that all 3 picks turn out to be good players for two reasons:
1)since we had many pressing needs, picking 2 receivers and a TE in the second round if we aren't 100% sure (well, at least as sure as one can be) that they will be good players would be retarded.
2)if any of them turns out to be a bust, then it's a bad pick, period. No need to say anything more about it.

Trading them next season would be more on the safe side, whereas traiding one of them this year would probably be a higher risk/higher reward situation.

If they don't all turn out to be good the FO will be ripped no doubt.

[firehawk157]

The best scenario I could see is if we use Davis as a FB (have him play TE this year, but transition him to FB) to replace Sellers and he becomes productive there. I don't know if any offense has ever utilized 2 TEs as consistent receiving threats.

[skinfanjon]

Portis should have about 30 by himself. Roughly 35-40 has been his average throughout his career.
And 340 completions seems a bit high for Campbell, considering that aside from his 352 last season, Hasselbeck's previous high is 313.

But even assuming your numbers are correct, do 20 catches by what is primarily a receiving TE justify a second round selection?

It is if several are for TD's...

I think the redzone versatility this provides is invaluable. We can now go jumbo to five wide and everything in between. I don't know how the numbers will shake out, but having too many weapons isn't a problem in my book.

Of course, its only potential right now, its up to the coaches to get it out of them.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

We need to make sure that these new guys can actually play first before we consider pushing out the vets like Moss and/or ARE. These guys will probably come along slowly, so we need Moss and El to hold down the fort while the youngsters develop. For now, let's use the numbers to our advantage.

Also, the receptions hypothesizing assumes that all parties involved are healthy for all 16 games. While this would be wonderful, it's unlikely for Moss and ARE to avoid their usual nicks. And thankfully Cooley has had a clean bill of health so far, but until now we had very little behind him. Yoder is 30 and has 8 catches in the past two years.

Let's see how this offense progresses for a year before dreaming up trade scenarios. We need either Thomas or Kelly to become an established star before unloading a proven commodity.
Actually, I was talking about season numbers, not game-per-game numbers.

[MONK_in_HOF]

After several posters have pointed out the fact that our current starting WRs have had difficulty making it through a season, IMO it is comforting that we have both and likely it will afford both more opportunities should history repeat itself. But then again I reflect on how we were able to find serviceable contributors on the cheap last year (Keenan and Caldwell) and can't help but think it is overkill in taking a 2nd WR so shortly after the first.

I must admit the reason I probably feel it is overkill, is that I really don't like the Kelly selection. I just can't be thrilled about drafting him when I feel there were comparable WRs still available and other quality players at greater positions of need. Obviously I am hoping Kelly turns into a great player, but until I see it on the field I can't convince myself he was the right choice. I guess his knees and the way he made excuses about workouts were major concerns to me.

[Canuck]

But even assuming your numbers are correct, do 20 catches by what is primarily a receiving TE justify a second round selection?

Spicy, I think football is too fluid of a sport to predict the number of receptions a player will receive. There are just too many variables that go into it to effectively predict them.

What adding Davis did is give up options in how we can attack opposing teams. If a team is slow at LB we can use a lot of 2 TE formations and really attack their LB corps.

I also like the fact that we now have depth that can at least push our front-line receivers for playing time. Depth and competition at any position is usually a good thing.

[firehawk157]

I have a feeling that this combo will be featured prominently on lists of the top two receiving duos (like Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne and TJ Houshmanzadeh and Chad Johnson are now). I don't think either will suffer from a lack of playing time either.

[GWBlitzST]

They don't all have to start right away. We just solidified the WR position for years to come, which is a GREAT thing for Jason Campbell. The Redskins needed to shore up WR for the future to make our QB of the future comfortable, and they did. And when Moss goes down with a tweaked hammy in week 5, everyone will be LOVING that we went ahead and drafted two dominant wideouts with early picks.

[GWBlitzST]

Spicy, I think football is too fluid of a sport to predict the number of receptions a player will receive. There are just too many variables that go into it to effectively predict them.

What adding Davis did is give up options in how we can attack opposing teams. If a team is slow at LB we can use a lot of 2 TE formations and really attack their LB corps.

I also like the fact that we now have depth that can at least push our front-line receivers for playing time. Depth and competition at any position is usually a good thing.

The flexibility that Davis, Cooley, the WRs, Sellers, and Portis allows our coaches to gameplan is immeasurable in receptions or YPC. We can attack with confidence the weakness of any defense we face now, instead of hoping they have slow cornerbacks and safeties.

[skin4ever]

i think our situation is perfect. Based off of last years(reg season) stats, Campbell threw 417 times with 250 completions(60%) and Collins threw 105 with 67 complettions. Thats about 523 passes.

Our receivers stats: Rec Yds Tds
Chris Cooley 66 786 8
Santana Moss 61 808 3
Antwaan Randle El 51 728 1
Clinton Portis 47 389 0
Keenan McCardell 22 256 1
Ladell Betts 21 174 1
Mike Sellers 17 117 1
Reche Caldwell 15 141 0
James Thrash 9 107 2
Todd Yoder 7 97 1
Brandon Lloyd 2 14 0
Brian Kozlowski 1 5 0

My point is we need better production from our Receivers, PERIOD. Chad Johnson had almost as many yards as Moss and ARE combined. Maybe our Rookies can do better, or at least help us score. There will be enough balls to go around. and Hopefully we can use our Bigger rookies in redzone packages and score some damn TDS. Moss and ARE had only 4 tds. I think our situation is great, we have some young guys who are hungry. may the better WR win. We Play to Win the Game.

Also hopefully our HC knows how to utilize all of our WR's so that they each are(or feel) they contribute to winning the game. We have alot of skilled Wr's and situations have to be considered when one is better than the other.

[Hrabanmaur]

Well, I was reasoning under the assumption that all 3 picks turn out to be good players for two reasons:
1)since we had many pressing needs, picking 2 receivers and a TE in the second round if we aren't 100% sure (well, at least as sure as one can be) that they will be good players would be retarded.
2)if any of them turns out to be a bust, then it's a bad pick, period. No need to say anything more about it.

Trading them next season would be more on the safe side, whereas traiding one of them this year would probably be a higher risk/higher reward situation.

I agree with the last statement to some extent, but keep in mind what a rocky two seasons Moss has had. His value has dropped as a result. If he stays healthy and has a great year (especially with increased competition), his value may rise after this season. In that case, we would be better served to hold on a little longer. Nevertheless, he's proven he can be a #1 WR, unlike the others. I'm sure the front office thinks Kelly and Thomas will be good players, but Zorn in particular has already made it clear that players will need to earn their spot.

If any of them turns out to be a bad pick, the front office will come under fire. No doubt. I'm just saying picking WRs is somewhat of a gamble, so do we really want to double-down by shipping off Moss before we've even looked at our cards?

[whitskins]

Actually, I was talking about season numbers, not game-per-game numbers.

Yeah, but Moss played 14 games last year, ARE played 15, Cooley played 16. So the hypothetical numbers are pretty much based on these guys playing full seasons or just about. That may not be the case this year.

Also, ARE had 50 catches last year pretty much out of necessity. With a more evenly distributed offense, he probably goes down to about 35-40, where he belongs. I'd imagine Cooley's catches go down too since we won't be forcing the ball to him so much, but the field should be a lot more open for him, so his ypc should go up.

Same goes for Moss. We need to get him much closer to the 17 ypc he had in 05, not the 13 he had last year. That's where the big time value of all these weapons will come in. Receptions may go down for a few key guys, but they should be seeing a lot less double coverage and a lot more open field, so (hopefully) our offensive yardage will shoot up.

We should see everyone's TDs shoot up as well. In the red zone is where the rookies can all contribute immediately, and I think they will.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Spicy, I think football is too fluid of a sport to predict the number of receptions a player will receive. There are just too many variables that go into it to effectively predict them.

What adding Davis did is give up options in how we can attack opposing teams. If a team is slow at LB we can use a lot of 2 TE formations and really attack their LB corps.

I also like the fact that we now have depth that can at least push our front-line receivers for playing time. Depth and competition at any position is usually a good thing.
I'm not trying to predict numbers. If you've noticed, I never said X player will have X catches, aside from the 250plus carries that Portis, if healthy, is sure to get (unless we go into suicide mode). I was speaking in general terms.
What I am saying is that, due to the sheer number of players whose main objective is to catch the ball, it is inevitable that next year we will not get an adequate return, compared to the investment made, by a couple of them. Whether that will be Moss because of injuries, ARE, or one or two of the rookies, I don't know, but it is pretty much a certainty that not all of them, at least next year (or until at least one of them is traded/cut), will see enough balls to not consider their season disappointing.

Lastly, we have to keep in mind that in order to pick those 3, we failed to adress other issues on the roster that were at least as pressing.

[warpaint]

After several posters have pointed out the fact that our current starting WRs have had difficulty making it through a season, IMO it is comforting that we have both and likely it will afford both more opportunities should history repeat itself. But then again I reflect on how we were able to find serviceable contributors on the cheap last year (Keenan and Caldwell) and can't help but think it is overkill in taking a 2nd WR so shortly after the first.

I must admit the reason I probably feel it is overkill, is that I really don't like the Kelly selection. I just can't be thrilled about drafting him when I feel there were comparable WRs still available and other quality players at greater positions of need. Obviously I am hoping Kelly turns into a great player, but until I see it on the field I can't convince myself he was the right choice. I guess his knees and the way he made excuses about workouts were major concerns to me.

well at one time felt just as you do with the overkill ,but since a lot of the so called experts have given us high marks on our draft just shows i dont know much, i think couple of years down the road will look back at this draft as being one of our best drafts ever or as one of the worst ones ever, hope it is the former .

[skin4ever]

I'm not trying to predict numbers. If you've noticed, I never said X player will have X catches, aside from the 250plus carries that Portis, if healthy, is sure to get (unless we go into suicide mode). I was speaking in general terms.
What I am saying is that, due to the sheer number of players whose main objective is to catch the ball, it is inevitable that next year we will not get an adequate return, compared to the investment made, by a couple of them. Whether that will be Moss because of injuries, ARE, or one or two of the rookies, I don't know, but it is pretty much a certainty that not all of them, at least next year (or until at least one of them is traded/cut), will see enough balls to not consider their season disappointing.

Lastly, we have to keep in mind that in order to pick those 3, we failed to adress other issues on the roster that were at least as pressing.

I dont think rookies expect to come in and catch starter numbers. Its a process with them. We invested 2nd round money in these guys, alot cheaper than we have for BL and the likes. Plus Moss and, especially, ARE do not seem to be guys who whine about not getting the ball. These guys didnt put up good starter numbers last season and havent said a peep about their season. These guys know they will get the ball and must do something with it. If they dont, maybe someone else should be given the opportunity. We have depth at the position, competition only brings out the best in winners. I think we wait and see how it plays out. MOst teams in the NFL would love to be in the situation that we are in.

I agree we didnt address DL and other presssing needs, but if the offense puts up enough points, hey our d is goood enough to stave off a loss.(glass is half full and still drinking it kind of statement.)

[Canuck]

I'm not trying to predict numbers. If you've noticed, I never said X player will have X catches, aside from the 250plus carries that Portis, if healthy, is sure to get (unless we go into suicide mode). I was speaking in general terms.
What I am saying is that, due to the sheer number of players whose main objective is to catch the ball, it is inevitable that next year we will not get an adequate return, compared to the investment made, by a couple of them. Whether that will be Moss because of injuries, ARE, or one or two of the rookies, I don't know, but it is pretty much a certainty that not all of them, at least next year (or until at least one of them is traded/cut), will see enough balls to not consider their season disappointing.

So basically we should not draft a receiver in the 2nd round because he won't get a chance to put up pro bowl numbers in his first year. Let's ignore his long term potential and the options it gives us for attacking an opponent.

Lastly, we have to keep in mind that in order to pick those 3, we failed to adress other issues on the roster that were at least as pressing.

So which three players would you have picked instead? It's easy to say we should have picked OL depth instead of receivers. Tell me the players you'd have picked instead and let's see how it works out.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

So basically we should not draft a receiver in the 2nd round because he won't get a chance to put up pro bowl numbers in his first year. Let's ignore his long term potential and the options it gives us for attacking an opponent.
Ok then. I see that you are either incapable of understanding simple senteces in the english language, or are unwilling to do so.
When did I ever say that we should not have drafted these players? All I said was, regarding the opportunity of picking 3 players who have essentially the same function on the team so close together, that it is unreasonable NEXT SEASON to expect them all to have good production, unless the starters either have injury problems or just downright suck, like Moss did at times last season. After that, who knows what will happen. Both Moss and ARE could be cut or traded. Both of the two receivers could be Pro-Bowlers or be the second coming of Taylor Jacobs.
In the long run, if Zorn is not pleased with Moss and/or ARE as starting receivers in his system, then it was a good idea to pick them. What we could make of that is that yet again, our Front Office (if the odd man out is ARE) made a bad decision in signing ARE.
Since the question asked by the person who started the thread was whether is was a good or bad idea to groom 2 rookie WRs at the same time (and two receivers drafted so close together), the summary of my argument was that you not only have to consider those two, but also the third player chosen (since he too is mainly a receiving threat from what I hear), plus the fact that we already have quite a few weapons available on offense, and it is possible that it will be difficult to get max production from all of them.




So which three players would you have picked instead? It's easy to say we should have picked OL depth instead of receivers. Tell me the players you'd have picked instead and let's see how it works out.
Like I've already said, I don't follow college football for obvious geographical reasons. But since 3 defensive linemen were drafted in the 6 picks following the Davis pick, there were certainly other options available.

[Meatsnack]

I think getting these guys together is a developmental plus since they can watch the other one make mistakes and get corrected. This assumes that they have the humility to learn and cooperate. If one of then wants to be a prima donna, then it is a minus since it stirs up BS. In any case, competition at a position is almost never a bad thing.

As a matter of sheer practicality, I expect one of these guys not to pan out. Thomas is the more likely to catch-on slower just due to his having only 1 year of college production. I could see Kelly being good pretty quickly. We will have to keep a game by game "Braylon-meter" to see if they are above or below his pace of progress as a rook.

[Canuck]

Ok then. I see that you are either incapable of understanding simple senteces in the english language, or are unwilling to do so.

At least I can spell the word sentence. :Peace:


When did I ever say that we should not have drafted these players? All I said was, regarding the opportunity of picking 3 players who have essentially the same function on the team so close together, that it is unreasonable NEXT SEASON to expect them all to have good production, unless the starters either have injury problems or just downright suck, like Moss did at times last season. After that, who knows what will happen. Both Moss and ARE could be cut or traded. Both of the two receivers could be Pro-Bowlers or be the second coming of Taylor Jacobs.

Agreed.


Since the question asked by the person who started the thread was whether is was a good or bad idea to groom 2 rookie WRs at the same time (and two receivers drafted so close together), the summary of my argument was that you not only have to consider those two, but also the third player chosen (since he too is mainly a receiving threat from what I hear), plus the fact that we already have quite a few weapons available on offense, and it is possible that it will be difficult to get max production from all of them.

So what's your answer then, is it a good idea or bad idea to groom 2 rookie WRs at the same time? Considering the FA options available at WR, I think at this time it's a good idea to try and groom 2 rookie WRs. The odds of both of em turning into Taylor Jacobs is lower but it could still happen. This is the NFL after all, and you just never know in this league.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I dont think rookies expect to come in and catch starter numbers. Its a process with them. We invested 2nd round money in these guys, alot cheaper than we have for BL and the likes. Plus Moss and, especially, ARE do not seem to be guys who whine about not getting the ball. These guys didnt put up good starter numbers last season and havent said a peep about their season. These guys know they will get the ball and must do something with it. If they dont, maybe someone else should be given the opportunity. We have depth at the position, competition only brings out the best in winners. I think we wait and see how it plays out. MOst teams in the NFL would love to be in the situation that we are in.

I agree we didnt address DL and other presssing needs, but if the offense puts up enough points, hey our d is goood enough to stave off a loss.(glass is half full and still drinking it kind of statement.)

Well I think the reason they haven't said anything is b/c they had ample opportunities. Of course a player isn't going to complain about having a poor season if you give them ample chances, or you would hope not at least. However if a player perceives that he isn't being given the amount of opportunities that they feel their ability merits is where problems sometimes arise.

[Redskin4Life]

I love the fact the FO is thinking we should go with two new WRs this high... at first, I wasn't on board with it. But think of it this way...

the 2008 WR corp before the draft:
Santana Moss, Antwan Randle-El, Anthony Mix
James Thrash, Billy McMullen, Jerome Mathis

The 2008 WR Corp after the draft:
Santana Moss, Antwan Randle-El, Malcolm Kelly
Devin Thomas, Anthony Mix, James Thrash

I don't know about you guys but Option #2 looks great to me.... you've got two smallish fast guys (5'10 Moss, 5'10 ARE), two midsized reliable guys (6'2 Thomas, 6'0 Thrash) and two tall guys (6'4 Kelly, 6'5 Mix).

And about the production, let's look at the '06 Seahawks last year (a playoff bound team with a so-so year production wise and a team's offense we're implementing):

Hass had 370 attempts for 210 completions while S.Wallace had 141 attempts for 82 completions. The top two receivers had 116 receptions. The rest of the receivers had another 87 receptions. The TEs had 36. The RBs had 53.

Assuming Campbell throws about 300 completions, Moss and ARE would get around 70 and 40. Portis, Sellers and Betts will probably get around 45 (25, 15, 5). Cooley and Davis would get around 70 (45, 25). That leaves around 80 balls for Kelly, Thomas and Mix. Those totals seem reasonable to me.....

[skin4ever]

Well I think the reason they haven't said anything is b/c they had ample opportunities. Of course a player isn't going to complain about having a poor season if you give them ample chances, or you would hope not at least. However if a player perceives that he isn't being given the amount of opportunities that they feel their ability merits is where problems sometimes arise.

They are still the starters, ARE may be moved around a bit in 3 or 4 receiver sets, but its their position to lose. They will have their opportunities but they wont be dropping them next season without fear of losing their status. Plus, i think these guys will be able to score more this season, which is what i would really care about as a WR. I could take half as many catches if i got in the endzone more. These rookies on the field will hve to be accounted for, giving more one on one opps.
As for player perception, we will have to see. But WR injuries are not uncommon and depth at that position should be a blessing.

[Cutter]

I think this puts Moss on notice. He has to produce/stay healthy this season or he's likely out. He didn't re-do his deal this year. He's drawing near the end of that deal he got for us, and he's just plain getting old. Since drafting WRs is a 50/50 bet, they did a good job since one of them will likely pan out. That gives a true #1, Moss to stretch the field, and ARE to play either #2 or the slot. They should split special teams duty - Moss KR, ARE PR.

What it does now... I think we lose at least one current WR between Mix, Thrash and Mathis. I think it looks worst for Mathis. We could lose 2. Does Mix or Mathis have any years left for the practice squad?

[warpaint]

I think this puts Moss on notice. He has to produce/stay healthy this season or he's likely out. He didn't re-do his deal this year. He's drawing near the end of that deal he got for us, and he's just plain getting old. Since drafting WRs is a 50/50 bet, they did a good job since one of them will likely pan out. That gives a true #1, Moss to stretch the field, and ARE to play either #2 or the slot. They should split special teams duty - Moss KR, ARE PR.

What it does now... I think we lose at least one current WR between Mix, Thrash and Mathis. I think it looks worst for Mathis. We could lose 2. Does Mix or Mathis have any years left for the practice squad?

what happens if mathis has a great preseason returning punts, dont know if he does kick offs or not , but if he did with the other receivers we have now seems it could make a.r.e.. expendable, really wasnt impressed at all with his returns last year.

[Cutter]

Mathis would make either ARE or Moss expendable right? But ARE re-did his deal this year so it would probably not be him. I believe Moss will have to re-work his deal after this year or be let go. They'd do it if he flashes '05 numbers but otherwise I think $$$ rules him out. If he had 60-80 catches and went back to returning kicks I think he'd be safe too. But then you have that Mathis guy... (I think he does both kinds of returns)

[MONK_in_HOF]

They are still the starters, ARE may be moved around a bit in 3 or 4 receiver sets, but its their position to lose. They will have their opportunities but they wont be dropping them next season without fear of losing their status. Plus, i think these guys will be able to score more this season, which is what i would really care about as a WR. I could take half as many catches if i got in the endzone more. These rookies on the field will hve to be accounted for, giving more one on one opps.
As for player perception, we will have to see. But WR injuries are not uncommon and depth at that position should be a blessing.

I wasn't really speaking of Moss and ARE specifically with regards to becoming disgruntled. I was more so speaking in general terms that if players, especially WRs, get ample chances that they have no reason to complain for poor seasons or stats. When players feel they don't get enough opportunities to produce there is a good possibility of griping.

The more I think about it the more I think we will be ok on this front b/c I don't think the rookies will complain about lack of opportunity unless they get none at all, which is something I just can't see considering their ability and the fact they offer a dimension our current starting WRs don't.
So how that will eat into our current players opportunities and how they handle it remains to be seen. I really don't think that this will be an issue unless someone is totally phased out.

[Battle Cat]

Even though I think this does make sense, I am not sure what we could get for Moss, and I doubt any team would be willing to deal for Randle El with his current contract.
I like the draft picks but lets let these guys catch a NFL pass before we ship out all of our receivers. I hope this happens eventually but lets wait until after 1 training camp much less one season before we bet the whole farm on these guys. The wide receiver position is very difficult to transition to from college to NFL take for instance Calvin Johnson last year. I mean if any team is depending on any rookie for them to win or lose then that team is in big trouble.

[Cutter]

Moss, like Campbell, gets at least a season :)

[flave1969]

I think the question we have to ask other than "Why can we not draft a Defensive Lineman" is this.

Were you happy with what we had at Wide Receiver last year, and are you happier now?

Now I know Thomas and Kelly have caught zero NFL balls but consider this. If they catch 25 balls each, they will have caught more than our 3rd/4th/5th receivers did last year. If six of those are for TD's that equals our receiver total for last year. You can question is that a reasonable return for a couple of 2nd round wideouts, but in the bigger picture yes I think it is.

It is for me the final nail in the coffin for Santana unless he embraces this Offense wholeheartedly and produces.

Seattles top 4 wideouts last year had 94,50,49 and 32 receptions between them, 225 in total. Our top 4 had 151 between them.

If we can get our receivers up to 190 receptions, it just makes Cooley, Davis Portis and Betts even more dangerous. In the scheme I think you may see the TE production drop from the 74 passes caught last year and for the RB numbers to drop a little.

Last year we had 317 completions, a 60, 20, 35, 15 split for, Cooley, Davis, Portis and Betts takes us pretty much to where we were last year.

The overriding key to this all is this. We now have the physicality to make the WCO work. Whats more, we will have given those who needed a wake up call, a big one. Perform or your gone.

So after that Soliloquy, in short bringing in and grooming two rookie WR's is IMO actually a good thing and I think will be an improvement on last year.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

At least I can spell the word sentence. :Peace:

Touchè. lol





So what's your answer then, is it a good idea or bad idea to groom 2 rookie WRs at the same time? Considering the FA options available at WR, I think at this time it's a good idea to try and groom 2 rookie WRs. The odds of both of em turning into Taylor Jacobs is lower but it could still happen. This is the NFL after all, and you just never know in this league.
Well, it's not necessarily a good idea or a bad one. You have to consider the situation. Personally, I would have preferred to take one receiver, then either the TE or the other receiver (but the TE would have been better), and one of the two defensive ends. But if the plan is to ship out either Moss or ARE now or at the end of the season, I think there will be room to develop all 3 of them. If the FO is counting on keeping all 6 of those guys around, then I think they are delusional.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I like the draft picks but les let these guys catch a NFL pass before we ship out all of our receivers. I hope this happens eventually but lets wait until after 1 training camp much less one season before we bet the whole farm on these guys. The wide receiver position is very difficult to transition to from college to NFL take for instance Calvin Johnson last year.

I hear what your saying but considering we drafted 2 WRs within 20 spots of each other in the 2nd round when we had several other needs it would suggest the Skins think these are can't miss players and are the future at this position. Therefore if we had a chance to ship Moss or El for a quality DL it would make sense to me. For the record I wasn't suggesting it's imperative for the Skins to do this, rather pointing out how unlikely it would be for this to happen, although it would make sense to me.

It would make sense to me b/c I don't see this team challenging for the title this year with a 1st year coach who is implementing a new system in probably the toughest division in the NFL. I don't see our offseason maneuvers making us title contenders with or without Moss, so I wouldn't be opposed to getting value in a definite area of need for him while he still has value, especially if he isn't in Zorn's long term plans anyhow. This would allow us to improve an area of need and allow our future WRs to gain valuable experience. Everyone will be learning a new playbook, so even though Moss doesn't have to adjust to NFL game speed, he has to adjust to a new playbook just like everyone else.

Once again I am not suggesting this, but if the right offer came along it would certainly make sense to me.

[MONK_in_HOF]

Well, it's not necessarily a good idea or a bad one. You have to consider the situation. Personally, I would have preferred to take one receiver, then either the TE or the other receiver (but the TE would have been better), and one of the two defensive ends. But if the plan is to ship out either Moss or ARE now or at the end of the season, I think there will be room to develop all 3 of them. If the FO is counting on keeping all 6 of those guys around, then I think they are delusional.

I tend to agree with your whole statement, but as for the bolded text I have to believe one of these guys will be leaving after the season.
I think El is the main candidate b/c he just hasn't panned out to be the multidimensional threat the Skins thought they were getting at the price they paid. Almost everyone outside of the Skins organization (and perhaps even some inside) thought the deal Randle El signed was well above his market value, so I have to wonder if Zorn considers him as useful as the previous staff did at that price.

[GWBlitzST]

Im pretty sure that Zorn was watching the same game as me this january, and Randle El was the only receiver that showed up that day. I HIGHLY doubt he is going anywhere before Moss.

[lorimike]

Against Penn State's Justin King ane AJ Wallace last season Devin Thomas caught 7 balls for 139 yards and 3 touchdowns. Both King and Wallace were five star recruits coming out of high school.

[RedskinRyan]

Now that the draft has passed and we have used 2 high picks on WRs, how will having two impact each other's development?
Considering we already have 1 starter in Moss on the team, and unless Randle El is relegated to mainly special teams, these two will most likely be competing for the same PT, unless we implement a system that is predominantly 4 wr sets.

So the question is will having both be beneficial or a detriment to their development? Curious on thoughts on this.

I think having both is beneficial. I'm assuming that if they both pan out reasonably, Moss and ARE will be gone in two years.

[colkurtz]

This is about competition within the team and maximizing our passing attack. Older players like Moss, ARE and Thrash will have to keep up their game and the rookies will have to get acclelerate to the NFL level. May the best players win.

BL is that Jason Campbell will have a premium group of Wr/ TE to throw to in a WCO. Our running game will also open up and become better. I see a very big improvement in our offense and especially our Red Zone production .

Zorn came in as HC to get this offense to a new level. That goal could be met with these new draft offensive additions. Did we spend too many draft picks on the offense? We'll know if our W-L increases.

Although I wanted a DE to get a better pass, Blache was obviously not pushing hard for a draft pick there. Maybe we'll get something there in the FA. Perhaps Blache is just coasting through this year but if his defense can't produce due to a lack of a pass rush he won't last long.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I think having both is beneficial. I'm assuming that if they both pan out reasonably, Moss and ARE will be gone in two years.
I think that is Zorn's intention as well. Certainly one of them will be shipped out at the end of this year.

[dukeuch]

While there are exeptions ot every rule, it is rare for a rookie WR, even a highly touted one, to make a big impact his first year. I expect these guys will get thier touches, but if we are counting on them transforming our passing game, well...

[dj_stouty]

The odds of both of our rookie WRs becoming studs is slim. If anything, we should hope one of them pans out to become a solid WR2...and be ecstatic if one becomes our marquee wide receiver. I guess having two hedges your bets. The only good thing about having 2 from the same draft is that they will push each other. All NFL players say they like competition but a lot are lying. Some cave under the pressure (ahem, Patrick Ramsey)...and others thrive under it. I'll be interested in seeing how these guys man up to the challenge.

[Moe]

The odds of both of our rookie WRs becoming studs is slim. If anything, we should hope one of them pans out to become a solid WR2...and be ecstatic if one becomes our marquee wide receiver. I guess having two hedges your bets. The only good thing about having 2 from the same draft is that they will push each other. All NFL players say they like competition but a lot are lying. Some cave under the pressure (ahem, Patrick Ramsey)...and others thrive under it. I'll be interested in seeing how these guys man up to the challenge.

I like that they'll be working behind two veteran WR's for time, which should reduce some of the pressure on them to step right in and produce. It might also put them in situations where they can be matched up such that they can excel as they are learning. I think you're spot on in regards to 'hedging your bets' with two, and ideally they both live up to their hype and the team has it's new crop of WR's waiting in the wings.

[Redskin4Life]

Well for those of you that think we're using the same offense as Seattle, 6 WRs caught balls last season, 5 WRs the year before and 6 WRs in '05. The top 4 WRs on those teams had at least 24 receptions.

It seems to me that you need 6 WRs for this offense.... Moss, ARE, Kelly and Thomas will get their touches.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Well for those of you that think we're using the same offense as Seattle, 6 WRs caught balls last season, 5 WRs the year before and 6 WRs in '05. The top 4 WRs on those teams had at least 24 receptions.

It seems to me that you need 6 WRs for this offense.... Moss, ARE, Kelly and Thomas will get their touches.

True, but look at how many balls the TEs caught in those 3 years, considering that Cooley caught an average of about 65 in the last 3 years and that you don't spend a second round pick on a receiving TE to throw him 10 balls a year (at least I hope not).

What I think that many are overlooking is that the competition for receptions will not come just from the receivers, but from the two TEs as well. And with this I don't mean to say that they were necessarily bad picks, just that it is extreme overkill to keep all 6 of those guys around for more than one year if the 3 rookies turn out to be good players.

[skin4ever]

True, but look at how many balls the TEs caught in those 3 years, considering that Cooley caught an average of about 65 in the last 3 years and that you don't spend a second round pick on a receiving TE to throw him 10 balls a year (at least I hope not).

What I think that many are overlooking is that the competition for receptions will not come just from the receivers, but from the two TEs as well. And with this I don't mean to say that they were necessarily bad picks, just that it is extreme overkill to keep all 6 of those guys around for more than one year if the 3 rookies turn out to be good players.

i think we will be alright, this coming up season. But too many cooks in the kitchen even next season wont be too bad either.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802390.html

[CNYSkinFan]

True, but look at how many balls the TEs caught in those 3 years, considering that Cooley caught an average of about 65 in the last 3 years and that you don't spend a second round pick on a receiving TE to throw him 10 balls a year (at least I hope not).

What I think that many are overlooking is that the competition for receptions will not come just from the receivers, but from the two TEs as well. And with this I don't mean to say that they were necessarily bad picks, just that it is extreme overkill to keep all 6 of those guys around for more than one year if the 3 rookies turn out to be good players.
not to mention that they are putting an emphasis on getting Portis involved in the passing game as well, even though he set a career high in receptions last year...

I am not sure there are enough balls and it is the main reason I did not like the Davis pick...but only time will tell.

If the skins develop a decent punt returner, ARE could be in trouble

[chicago_skinz_fan]

I don't know why everyone is thinking ARE is going to be in trouble. Last year he was our most consistant reciever. He caught most of the balls that came to him, he went over the middle, he was very important for JC and Collins. Moreso than Moss was...

We have 2 rookie reciever who we have no idea if they are going to pan out. We have Santana Moss who is hungry to have a great season and ARE is a good leader and great for the locker room.

I think our coach is going to find ways to get all the recievers on the field. We are going to see some cool combinations, and more 4-5WR sets.

Drafting two recievers is going to allow ARE to go back to his natural position in the slot where he will be deadly. Kelly is going to be a possession guy for the first year or two probably. Moss will be our deep threat.

I am excited to see what we do with Cooley this year. He is going to be moved all over the field, it should be really awesome. The kid from USC has the tools to be special as well. There is no way linebackers are going to be able to cover both of them when they are on the field together. There are going to be mismatches all over the place with this offense.

What I am trying to say is everyone is going to have a role...

[CNYSkinFan]

sure everyone will have a role...year 1, but not everyone is surviving after next year and ARE is the older WR, and Moss the most expensive...so of course they are in danger.

If only one of the 2 rookies turns out to be decent then either are or Moss will be gone next year...I promise you that. And I like both of them, but this is the nfl baby

[chicago_skinz_fan]

sure everyone will have a role...year 1, but not everyone is surviving after next year and ARE is the older WR, and Moss the most expensive...so of course they are in danger.

If only one of the 2 rookies turns out to be decent then either are or Moss will be gone next year...I promise you that. And I like both of them, but this is the nfl baby

I understand that certainly; unless they want to restructure of course... However, from what I read on this and other threads there are members on this board seem to take a flavor of the month approach to this team. Meaning when they play well its all roses, the minute someone plays poorly they get all over them and say they need to be traded. I really believe Moss is an awesome talent and I really think ARE is extremely versitlie and tough. ARE is a little guy who plays with a huge heart. He goes over the middle and takes some punishment and again, is great for the lockerroom. OK, maybe not Steve Smith tough, but he is tough. Veteran leadership and character are extremely important attributes and I hope some of the people out there are remembering this and not taking it for granted. Moss had the injury bug, ARE had some issues and they seem to be the hot topic to get rid of and we should put our stock in two unproven rookies that a lot of teams looked at and passed up on because of injuries, character, or speed issues...

ARE and Moss are still valuable to this team. We need Moss' speed unless we draft a speed guy next season. As for ARE, it is nice to have some veteran leadership for the young guys. He seems to be the type that would take some of these young guys under his wing... Yes he is older, but his wheels aren't falling off quite yet. He has still got some productive years left esp if he isn't on the field every down, which I suspect he wont be...

[flave1969]

I myself believe it is indeed Moss rather than ARE that has most to fear at this point. ARE can fill the role of slot receiver as he has done in the past. I feel his performance was not bad at all last year.

If Santana regains the drive that saw him break records in 05, then he could thrive in this Offense, it really is up to him.

We all know what Santana can do perhaps Jim Zorn can return him to Pro Bowl standing.

[hogskins]

Well I think the reason they haven't said anything is b/c they had ample opportunities. Of course a player isn't going to complain about having a poor season if you give them ample chances, or you would hope not at least. However if a player perceives that he isn't being given the amount of opportunities that they feel their ability merits is where problems sometimes arise.

I wouldn't characterize ARE's season as "poor". He was our most reliable receiver during the first half+ of the season, before he started having his hamstring problems. He caught nearly everything thrown at him, made some tough YAC, and played with some fire. He only had one TD, but the team didn't have any TDs scored by a WR for an amazing number of games.

The guy is definitely not the most talented player out there--he's absolutely limited. But he made some big 3rd down catches in games that we should have won, if our coaching and schemes on both sides of the ball were not so ineffective. And he showed more heart than Moss on the field last season.

This year will be interesting--we should have the weapons on offense. Let's see who steps up. I'm hoping that Zorn throws caution to the wind, because I believe that the defense is the suspect unit.

[Hr fan]

no problems expected... the learning curve is such for wideouts and tight ends, that it should be towards the latter portions of the season at earliest before their impacts are felt..
study hard guys, your time will come to shine in seasons to come...

Except in the red zone, that probably from day 1 if the can carry the load.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I wouldn't characterize ARE's season as "poor". He was our most reliable receiver during the first half+ of the season, before he started having his hamstring problems. He caught nearly everything thrown at him, made some tough YAC, and played with some fire. He only had one TD, but the team didn't have any TDs scored by a WR for an amazing number of games.

The guy is definitely not the most talented player out there--he's absolutely limited. But he made some big 3rd down catches in games that we should have won, if our coaching and schemes on both sides of the ball were not so ineffective. And he showed more heart than Moss on the field last season.

This year will be interesting--we should have the weapons on offense. Let's see who steps up. I'm hoping that Zorn throws caution to the wind, because I believe that the defense is the suspect unit.
Poor admittedly is a bit harsh, especially considering I don't think anybody really projected Randle El to come in here catch the amount of passes usually expected out of a typical #2WR. Unfortunately when you give a guy a big contract, or what is perceived by many as overpaying, it often seems to result in overinflated expectations also and being held to a very high standard. Don't get me wrong, I like Randle El, but the season he had also didn't offer him bragging rights either, that was my only point. I really wasn't setting out to knock him, and I agree he shows lots of heart, as well as professionalism, and I think he seems like a genuinely good person.