Akh Blog: Draft Review

[akhhorus]

Link (http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=487)

I will now take your guff.

Current depthchart:
X/Z WR Devin Thomas(Malcolm Kelly)
Z/X WR Santana Moss (Antwaan Randle El)
TE Chris Cooley (Fred Davis)
LT Chris Samuels (Stephon Heyer)
LG Pete Kendall (Chad Rinehart)
OC Casey Rabach(Mike Pucillo)
RG Randy Thomas (Kerry Brown)
RT John Jansen (Stephon Heyer)
QB Jason Campbell (Todd Collins)
FB Fred Davis(Mike Sellers)
RB Clinton Portis(Ladell Betts)
K Shawn Suisham
KR Rock Cartwright

Defense:
LDE Treebeard Daniels (Chris Wilson)
LDT Cornie Griffin (Kedric Golston)
RDT Anthony Montgomery (Cornie Griffin)
RDE Andre Carter (Rob Jackson)
SLB Marcus Washington(Curtis Gatewood)
MLB London Fletcher (HB Blades)
WLB HB Blades(Rocky McIntosh)
CB Fred Smoot (Justin Tyron)
CB Shawn Springs (Carlos Rogers)
FS Laron Landry (Vernon Fox)
SS Reed Doughty (Kareem Moore)
P Durant Brooks
PR Antwaan Randle El/Justin Tyron

[JasonCampbell]

Maybe I missed something, but when has Fred Davis ever played FB?

[akhhorus]

Maybe I missed something, but when has Fred Davis ever played FB?

He hasn't. But I suspect they didn't draft him to be a backup.

[esmith1790]

So the skins are able to keep all rookies but CB? That seems to be a very high success rate.

It seems that i counted them all there. maybe i am wrong.

Since you have all but CB on the roster, what would be the order of potential PS players?

[skinfanjon]

He hasn't. But I suspect they didn't draft him to be a backup.

Just curious, why do you think they'd move Davis as opposed to Cooley?

[akhhorus]

So the skins are able to keep all rookies but CB? That seems to be a very high success rate.

It seems that i counted them all there. maybe i am wrong.

Since you have all but CB on the roster, what would be the order of potential PS players?

No, I think Brennan and Horton will be PS players. As for the rest, it depends on who else they bring in.

[akhhorus]

Just curious, why do you think they'd move Davis as opposed to Cooley?

I think Cooley is a better line blocker now. They're both Hback/TE types frankly.

[Keino]

At Devin's Presser he said that Zorn asked him to learn the Z WR spot, not the X. I suspect Santana would be the X.

[akhhorus]

At Devin's Presser he said that Zorn asked him to learn the Z WR spot, not the X. I suspect Santana would be the X.

Until Santana goes, we'll see. Thomas is probably going to inherit that SE spot.

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

Link (http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=487)

I will now take your guff.

Current depthchart:
X WR Devin Thomas(Malcolm Kelly)
Z WR Santana Moss (Antwaan Randle El)
TE Chris Cooley (Fred Davis)
LT Chris Samuels (Stephon Heyer)
LG Pete Kendall (Chad Rinehart)
OC Casey Rabach(Mike Pucillo)
RG Randy Thomas (Kerry Brown)
RT John Jansen (Stephon Heyer)
QB Jason Campbell (Todd Collins)
FB Fred Davis(Mike Sellers)
RB Clinton Portis(Ladell Betts)
K Shawn Suisham
KR Rock Cartwright

Defense:
LDE Treebeard Daniels (Chris Wilson)
LDT Cornie Griffin (Kedric Golston)
RDT Anthony Montgomery (Cornie Griffin)
RDE Andre Carter (Rob Jackson)
SLB Marcus Washington(Curtis Gatewood)
MLB London Fletcher (HB Blades)
WLB HB Blades(Rocky McIntosh)
CB Fred Smoot (Justin Tyron)
CB Shawn Springs (Carlos Rogers)
FS Laron Landry (Vernon Fox)
SS Reed Doughty (Kareem Moore)
P Durant Brooks
PR Antwaan Randle El/Justin Tyron

I sure hope this roster pans out. That would mean the Skins draft would be much like the Giants draft success last year. Minor note: Pucillo is not even on the roster as of today. He ended the season with a back injury. I doubt he will be on the team next year.

[hail2skins]

Yeah, Devin did say Zorn told him the Z spot.

[akhhorus]

Yeah, Devin did say Zorn told him the Z spot.

I changed to say X/Z for both. Thomas is a split end, not a slot guy imo. He might end up in the slot this year, but he'll probably be replacing Moss in the SE before long.

[shally]

the first thought i had when we signed all these guys who have return ability is that if mason shows ANYTHING as a runner, rock is gone.
rock has zero ability as a runner now and his claim on the roster has been that he gets the team a solid start- at the 30.

did anyone catch what tyron said ? to paraphrase, it was let me return kicks and i will get you to the 50 every time.. can he do it ? i doubt it, but i love a guy who thinks in terms of the long return every time. given the wedges that rock had last year it is a shame we didnt have more long returns. i bet that wasnt lost on zorn either

frankly i doubt we ever see thomas returning ko's because he is far to valuable to risk injuring doing that. plus, he has dropped at least 2 by taking his eye off the ball. he has enough on his plate trying to learn the nuances of becoming an nfl receiver. tryon is going tobe a backup nickle and so he would be the guy i would give the first shot to. plus, we have mason and betts who can do it plus, mathis
has only 1 shot of making the team, and that is as a returner

on the other hand, we need a spark at reserve runner. betts is much the same as portis, but with far less talent. we still dont have anyone as a short yardage back unless nemo makes a miraculous recovery, or schmitt gets returned to FB.
sellers is not a short yardage back. he is too slow to hit the hole, and doesnt move the pile or make his own hole. he is poor as a receiver. he is headed for ST's this year and then off the roster next year

[VegasSkinsFan]

Thanks for the write-up, the only name i didnt see you use was lorenzo alexander. Oversight, off the team, if backup ol or dt?

[VegasSkinsFan]

the first thought i had when we signed all these guys who have return ability is that if mason shows ANYTHING as a runner, rock is gone.
rock has zero ability as a runner now and his claim on the roster has been that he gets the team a solid start- at the 30.

did anyone catch what tyron said ? to paraphrase, it was let me return kicks and i will get you to the 50 every time.. can he do it ? i doubt it, but i love a guy who thinks in terms of the long return every time. given the wedges that rock had last year it is a shame we didnt have more long returns. i bet that wasnt lost on zorn either

frankly i doubt we ever see thomas returning ko's because he is far to valuable to risk injuring doing that. plus, he has dropped at least 2 by taking his eye off the ball. he has enough on his plate trying to learn the nuances of becoming an nfl receiver. tryon is going tobe a backup nickle and so he would be the guy i would give the first shot to. plus, we have mason and betts who can do it plus, mathis
has only 1 shot of making the team, and that is as a returner

on the other hand, we need a spark at reserve runner. betts is much the same as portis, but with far less talent. we still dont have anyone as a short yardage back unless nemo makes a miraculous recovery, or schmitt gets returned to FB.
sellers is not a short yardage back. he is too slow to hit the hole, and doesnt move the pile or make his own hole. he is poor as a receiver. he is headed for ST's this year and then off the roster next year

I also think that rock, sellers and couple others will have very limited use if any at all. Maybe we package a couple of them and/or a mid-late conditional pick for jason taylor. Just a thought. GO SKINS !!!!!

[skins4life24]

No matter where Thomas plays he is going to make an impact, i watched this guy live all year and he has so much talent to go along with his hustle, redskins nation is going to fall in love with him!

[shally]

I also think that rock, sellers and couple others will have very limited use if any at all. Maybe we package a couple of them and/or a mid-late conditional pick for jason taylor. Just a thought. GO SKINS !!!!!

not a chance..

the only older players that parcells ever goes after are his own former players

tuna is inthe process of remaking the fins into a younger, bigger team

[VegasSkinsFan]

Yeah you are right.

[esmith1790]

not a chance..

the only older players that parcells ever goes after are his own former players

tuna is inthe process of remaking the fins into a younger, bigger team

i saw some where it says all of parcells picks average 6-4 and 270!

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

Do you think we were going with Dennis Dixon in rd 4 before Pitt snagged him?

[SkinsfaninNJ]

You don't think Mathis will be returning?

[akhhorus]

Thanks for the write-up, the only name i didnt see you use was lorenzo alexander. Oversight, off the team, if backup ol or dt?

I think he'll continue to be a valuable backup at multiple positions. He just won't be the top backup anywhere, hence not on the depth chart.

Do you think we were going with Dennis Dixon in rd 4 before Pitt snagged him?

Passing on someone like Paul Smith for a non-mobile Qb in Brennan? I don't know if I buy that we were targeting Dixon.

You don't think Mathis will be returning?

Nope. I think he's camp fodder.

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

Are there any decent des in jeopardy as a result of the draft?

[akhhorus]

Are there any decent des in jeopardy as a result of the draft?

Jason Taylor. Maybe Darnett Dockett(but he's more a 3 gap DT for us). Darryl Tapp.

[shally]

Jason Taylor. Maybe Darnett Dockett(but he's more a 3 gap DT for us). Darryl Tapp.

i think the animus between parcells and taylor is going to be so toxic that taylor ends up being dumped for chump change or chump picks.. at this point parcells ego demands that taylor be shown how little value he has in the nfl

second day draft pick tops..possibly even outright cut coming up...

[shally]

I think he'll continue to be a valuable backup at multiple positions. He just won't be the top backup anywhere, hence not on the depth chart.



Passing on someone like Paul Smith for a non-mobile Qb in Brennan? I don't know if I buy that we were targeting Dixon.



Nope. I think he's camp fodder.

agree. agree. and agree..

mathis has only a punchers chance to make the team.. he has to hit it every time he gets his hands on the ball

[akhhorus]

i think the animus between parcells and taylor is going to be so toxic that taylor ends up being dumped for chump change or chump picks.. at this point parcells ego demands that taylor be shown how little value he has in the nfl

second day draft pick tops..possibly even outright cut coming up...

Parcells didn't even talk to Taylor when Taylor went to talk to him apparently. I'd offer then Moss straight up or a conditional pick in 09.

[shally]

Parcells didn't even talk to Taylor when Taylor went to talk to him apparently. I'd offer then Moss straight up or a conditional pick in 09.

no reason to offer him anything.. the day parcells takes a midget like moss wont come

he will take a 6th rounder now just to make his point with taylor.. this is about public humiliation in response to taylor not kissing his bu.... er.. ring...

besides, where in a 3/4 defense is taylor going to play ? you think he is going to be like gregg ellis and learn to play in reverse ? not a chance.
conditional pick

[akhhorus]

no reason to offer him anything.. the day parcells takes a midget like moss wont come

he will take a 6th rounder now just to make his point with taylor.. this is about public humiliation in response to taylor not kissing his bu.... er.. ring...

besides, where in a 3/4 defense is taylor going to play ? you think he is going to be like gregg ellis and learn to play in reverse ? not a chance.
conditional pick

I don't want to get into a potential bidding war for him. Get him now, redo his deal and lock it in. I would offer Moss(or the conditional 09 pick) to Seattle for Tapp(who looks expendable with the drafting of Lawrence Jackson).

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

I would offer Moss(or the conditional 09 pick) to Seattle for Tapp(who looks expendable with the drafting of Lawrence Jackson).

That would be nice.

[skinsfan36]

Jason Taylor. Maybe Darnett Dockett(but he's more a 3 gap DT for us). Darryl Tapp.

possibly add reggie hayward to that list in jax

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Regarding point #3:

Quite frankly, my take on the two days of the draft is this: I think Zorn, being a rookie HC and a pretty obscure one at that, wants to be 100% sure that if we have a bad season, the reason for that is the defense, and not the offense. That way he can buy himself at least one more year by firing Blache (who he did not personally choose), and hiring another defensive coordinator, instead of getting fired himself because the offense, which is his bread and butter, is the reason of the collapse.

I'd say that we pretty much agree.

[colkurtz]

Ahk, your "Treebeard Daniels" comment was spot on.

I also think we are in the market for Jason Taylor. He's a one or two year player who will have be peeved enough by being dumped by the Tuna to do something good here... like Bruce Smith did his first season with us.

Tuna wants to crush Taylor, he wants to go, Danny needs a splash and the team need a quick fix at LDE.

[warpaint]

i think the animus between parcells and taylor is going to be so toxic that taylor ends up being dumped for chump change or chump picks.. at this point parcells ego demands that taylor be shown how little value he has in the nfl

second day draft pick tops..possibly even outright cut coming up...

if some way we could get taylor cheap then i could really get excited about this draft and the up coming season , imo taylor still has a few good years left and is better than anyone we have now.

[Warpath23]

Why am I still looking a P. Daniels on the Dline??? That really makes me nauseous...Maybe we will pick of a DE after preseason cuts...

[Hrabanmaur]

I'm not ready yet to buy into the conspiracy theory that Zorn is cutting Blache loose or setting him up for failure. For one, he doesn't strike me as so scared or anxious that he's thinking about who to blame if the season goes wrong. Second, let's look at the Redskins past drafts: 1st picks taken include Landry, MacIntosh, Rogers, and Taylor over the past four years. Over the past two years, we've drafted 8 defensive players to 3 offensive players. We've consistently tried to address offensive needs via free agency whether on the O-line, TE, or with WR...and often failed. Judging from the history, it was about time the offense took a turn front and center in the draft. Third, I buy the BPA strategy at least in the first few rounds, which means the defense was just unlucky (i.e. Merling and Laws getting picked right before us). Fourth, I think Cerrato had more control over the draft than Zorn. He did almost all the pressers before, during, and immediately after the draft. His promotion and JLC's comments indicate he was the top dog. If anyone was screwing Blache, then one would presume it was Cerrato, which simply doesn't make sense.

You guys may be onto something, but I'm going to need to see more evidence before I give it credence.

[akhhorus]

I'm not ready yet to buy into the conspiracy theory that Zorn is cutting Blache loose or setting him up for failure. For one, he doesn't strike me as so scared or anxious that he's thinking about who to blame if the season goes wrong. Second, let's look at the Redskins past drafts: 1st picks taken include Landry, MacIntosh, Rogers, and Taylor over the past four years. Over the past two years, we've drafted 8 defensive players to 3 offensive players.

That regime is gone. And while the offense needed players, so did the defense.

We've consistently tried to address offensive needs via free agency whether on the O-line, TE, or with WR...and often failed. Judging from the history, it was about time the offense took a turn front and center in the draft. Third, I buy the BPA strategy at least in the first few rounds, which means the defense was just unlucky (i.e. Merling and Laws getting picked right before us). Fourth, I think Cerrato had more control over the draft than Zorn. He did almost all the pressers before, during, and immediately after the draft. His promotion and JLC's comments indicate he was the top dog. If anyone was screwing Blache, then one would presume it was Cerrato, which simply doesn't make sense.

Cerrato certainly gave Zorn the lion's share of input, the WRs we took are way out of line with the usual style of player we take.

You guys may be onto something, but I'm going to need to see more evidence before I give it credence.

If they don't even try to make a more for a Vet DE, thats another big piece of evidence.

[Hrabanmaur]

That regime is gone. And while the offense needed players, so did the defense.

Yes, I'm aware of the change in coaching staff. That still doesn't negate the history, or the new regime's awareness of that history.

I agree 100% that there were needs on both sides.

Cerrato certainly gave Zorn the lion's share of input, the WRs we took are way out of line with the usual style of player we take.

So Cerrato can't draft for Zorn's system, only for his own infatuations? I don't buy it. I was under the impression that we would finally hold Cerrato accountable as GM. Do you disagree? Zorn may very well have had the greatest input (and frankly as head coach he should have), but I'm still looking to Cerrato as our GM.

If they don't even try to make a more for a Vet DE, thats another big piece of evidence.

IF that happens, I'll be much more likely to buy into the conspiracy. Until then, I reserve judgment.

[akhhorus]

Yes, I'm aware of the change in coaching staff. That still doesn't negate the history, or the new regime's awareness of that history.

I agree 100% that there were needs on both sides.

So, you agree that there were needs on both sides, but the GM(who you later try to argue is totally independent) decided on his own to draft all offense in the first 4 picks? I don't buy that. Especially with the needs on defense.

So Cerrato can't draft for Zorn's system, only for his own infatuations?

Huh?

I don't buy it. I was under the impression that we would finally hold Cerrato accountable as GM. Do you disagree?

Cerrato is still the GM(whether or not he's fully in control is another matter), but it was very clear from that draft that Zorn gets what Zorn wants.

Zorn may very well have had the greatest input (and frankly as head coach he should have), but I'm still looking to Cerrato as our GM.

He is, but you can't deny that Vinny was definitely listening to Zorn much more than Blache. And like I(and fent) said: Zorn didn't pick Blache. If the offense improves and the defense struggles, what exactly is going to stop Zorn from dumping Blache?

IF that happens, I'll be much more likely to buy into the conspiracy. Until then, I reserve judgment.

Considering how little they seem motivated to do much about Daniels' spot, I would be shocked if we did anything.

[Hrabanmaur]

So, you agree that there were needs on both sides, but the GM(who you later try to argue is totally independent) decided on his own to draft all offense in the first 4 picks? I don't buy that. Especially with the needs on defense.

Whoa, tiger. I never argued Cerrato was totally independent or drafted on his own. Just because he's the GM now (which you do agree) does not mean he's the Lone Ranger. I merely stated he should be held accountable as GM.

As for the offense in the first four picks, I buy the argument of BPA, with Merling and Laws coming off the board right before we drafted.

Cerrato is still the GM(whether or not he's fully in control is another matter), but it was very clear from that draft that Zorn gets what Zorn wants.

Yes, Zorn got a lot of tools for his new offense, but one draft does not a trend make.

He is, but you can't deny that Vinny was definitely listening to Zorn much more than Blache. And like I(and fent) said: Zorn didn't pick Blache. If the offense improves and the defense struggles, what exactly is going to stop Zorn from dumping Blache?

We can only guess as to who had more of Vinny's ear, but as I already stated Cerrato should have been listening to Zorn as HC.

Why are we speculating about dumping Blache over a season that hasn't even happened yet?

Considering how little they seem motivated to do much about Daniels' spot, I would be shocked if we did anything.

Perhaps. Only the future will tell. I know I will be disappointed if we don't make some moves to pick up some veteran help with the D-line and the linebackers.


Unless you can furnish sufficient evidence to support the conspiracy theory, I'm not going to believe it. As I've conceded, that doesn't mean you may not be right, only that there's not enough there for me to make that leap of faith. There's just not enough proof that Vinny and Zorn plotted to set up Blache for failure.

[Moe]

Jason Taylor. Maybe Darnett Dockett(but he's more a 3 gap DT for us). Darryl Tapp.

I might be remembering this wrong, but isn't Will Smith clamoring for a new deal from the Saints? Moss and a pick for Smith sounds nice.

[Redskin4Life]

Regarding point #3:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me from the "Grade The Draft Thread
Quite frankly, my take on the two days of the draft is this: I think Zorn, being a rookie HC and a pretty obscure one at that, wants to be 100% sure that if we have a bad season, the reason for that is the defense, and not the offense. That way he can buy himself at least one more year by firing Blache (who he did not personally choose), and hiring another defensive coordinator, instead of getting fired himself because the offense, which is his bread and butter, is the reason of the collapse.


I'd say that we pretty much agree.

Or that the FO and Coach Zorn believes that there's a good enough D and that the O was held back from taking this team to another level. We can talk about how the pass rush was the reason the Patriots lost to the Giants but WE NEARLY BEAT the Giants twice ourselves??? They can't be that good.... I believe the Giants found lighting in a bottle at the end of the season.

Now before I get beat up for saying our D is good... I am saying I'm not upset about having only a 7th round pick for our DL help. I'm just saying that maybe the guys that they've got on the line will hold up or play a little better than last year. And NEXT draft we'll go elite DE/DT in the first two rounds (I feel like I've been saying this for years but maybe it'll come true this year).

[GWBlitzST]

Mike Sellers sits on the bench for no man.

[SkinsGuru]

Jason Taylor. Maybe Darnett Dockett(but he's more a 3 gap DT for us). Darryl Tapp.

Dockett would be awesome!!! Don't think the cards are letting him go though.

[dj_stouty]

I might be remembering this wrong, but isn't Will Smith clamoring for a new deal from the Saints? Moss and a pick for Smith sounds nice.


If Will Smith isn't available, maybe DJ Jazzy Jeff will suffice? ;)

I love Will Smith (the fooball player). I'd love to see him in B&G. I'd take him in a heartbeat over any of the other names mentioned in this thread. Smith is rarely (if ever) injured and he only has 4 seasons under his belt in the NFL. The guy is always good for 8 sacks a season and we could use that production on our D-line.

[akhhorus]

I might be remembering this wrong, but isn't Will Smith clamoring for a new deal from the Saints? Moss and a pick for Smith sounds nice.

They're working on a new deal apparently. And why would they take Moss with Colston, Meachem, Patton, Lance Moore, Henderson and now Adrian Arrington?

[Moe]

They're working on a new deal apparently. And why would they take Moss with Colston, Meachem, Patton, Lance Moore, Henderson and now Adrian Arrington?

Isn't Meacham a big health concern? Patton is ok but running on fumes at this point, they shopped Henderson and wound up keeping him for a minimum (he's little more than a track star who happens to play football, terrible hands) and I know nothing about the other guys.
Eh, just tossing it out there...maybe Moss and throw in Daniels to sweeten the pot ;)

[Battle Cat]

I don't want to get into a potential bidding war for him. Get him now, redo his deal and lock it in. I would offer Moss(or the conditional 09 pick) to Seattle for Tapp(who looks expendable with the drafting of Lawrence Jackson).
Are you suggesting that we go into this season with 2 rookie wide receivers who have not caught one NFL pass along with Mix who has caught little or no NFL passes and ARE? Do you think we should actually see the rookies play before we start shipping off our leading receivers. I am a Moss fan but I would say this about any draft pick taken this last weekend if any team is depending on a guy taken this last weekend to win this year they are in trouble. Don't think the front office is going to put us in that position.

[akhhorus]

Are you suggesting that we go into this season with 2 rookie wide receivers who have not caught one NFL pass along with Mix who has caught little or no NFL passes and ARE? Do you think we should actually see the rookies play before we start shipping off our leading receivers. I am a Moss fan but I would say this about any draft pick taken this last weekend if any team is depending on a guy taken this last weekend to win this year they are in trouble. Don't think the front office is going to put us in that position.

Either Moss goes now(and we try to get something like a quality DE for him) and we go into the season with that scenario you describe; or we can wait till next season, when everyone will know we're trying to dump Moss to make room for the young WR and not get much back in a deal. I'll take my chances that Thomas & Kelly combined can put up more in 2008 than Moss did in 2007(they would have to average 30 catches for 402 yards and 1.5 TDs to accomplish that).

[shally]

Either Moss goes now(and we try to get something like a quality DE for him) and we go into the season with that scenario you describe; or we can wait till next season, when everyone will know we're trying to dump Moss to make room for the young WR and not get much back in a deal. I'll take my chances that Thomas & Kelly combined can put up more in 2008 than Moss did in 2007(they would have to average 30 catches for 402 yards and 1.5 TDs to accomplish that).


i think we are likely stuck with moss for this year..i cant see zorn trusting that 2 rookie receivers can be counted on for this year.. just too much of a leap from college to pros for most receivers..even the greatest, jerry rice, had a very modest production his rookie year
but, next year i think moss and his perpetual hammy misery is gone

[akhhorus]

i think we are likely stuck with moss for this year..i cant see zorn trusting that 2 rookie receivers can be counted on for this year.. just too much of a leap from college to pros for most receivers..even the greatest, jerry rice, had a very modest production his rookie year
but, next year i think moss and his perpetual hammy misery is gone

We'll see. I don't think any move-if any move were to happen-would happen before the preseason. But, between Davis/Kelly/Thomas, the skins should be able to replace that production from Moss-even without putting onerous expectations on them.

[fent]

i think if he moves, he moves when a team that thinks they're a contender loses a receiver to injury in the preseason or in the first month of the season. if steve smith goes down for the season, i wouldn't be surprised to see a moss/picks for peppers deal at least discussed.

[native skin]

I can't believe this being discussed. :rolleyes:

[3Taylor6]

what difference do you really see btw dawayne jarret and kelly? Kelly may be a little quicker off the line, but i feel like they played the same in college, and had similiar work out numbers. Jarrett didnt do a thing this year on a team with one good reciever, hoping kelly doesnt turn out the same

[akhhorus]

I can't believe this being discussed. :rolleyes:

Right, we drafted 2 new WRs high and are running an offense tailored to Moss' weaknesses. I'm sure he has no reason to be worried :rolleyes:

what difference do you really see btw dawayne jarret and kelly? Kelly may be a little quicker off the line, but i feel like they played the same in college, and had similiar work out numbers. Jarrett didnt do a thing this year on a team with one good reciever, hoping kelly doesnt turn out the same

Kelly is much more fluid player imo. I liked Jarrett, but he's stiff hipped Flanker with no quickness, and not great WR skills. Kelly, for all his flaws, has good intangibles and has some quickness. I don't see many similarities between the two.

[jaylen]

I thought Jarret was a long strider with limited change of direction. I thought Kelly was alot like Plaxico Burress.

But I'm in the tank for Moss. He had an off year but I think he showed late in the season he still has his explosiveness and can still be a very good wr.

I think tales of his demise are greatly exaggerated, and feel like our wr plan revloves around Him Thomas anz Kelly with ARE being on the outs.

We'd be in trouble without Moss IMO, I just can't see those 2 rookies carrying us.

[Battle Cat]

Either Moss goes now(and we try to get something like a quality DE for him) and we go into the season with that scenario you describe; or we can wait till next season, when everyone will know we're trying to dump Moss to make room for the young WR and not get much back in a deal. I'll take my chances that Thomas & Kelly combined can put up more in 2008 than Moss did in 2007(they would have to average 30 catches for 402 yards and 1.5 TDs to accomplish that).
I would rather see these guys catch a pass in shorts at least once before we put the whole passing game of the team on the back of two rookies. It would be totally irresponsible to put that kind of pressure on 2 rookies. We didn't do that to Carlos Rogers, or Sean Taylor or Jason Campbell who were all 1st round picks. I like these two guys that we drafted but can we please see them play 1 game before we place the future of the team on their shoulders.

[akhhorus]

I would rather see these guys catch a pass in shorts at least once before we put the whole passing game of the team on the back of two rookies. It would be totally irresponsible to put that kind of pressure on 2 rookies. We didn't do that to Carlos Rogers, or Sean Taylor or Jason Campbell who were all 1st round picks. I like these two guys that we drafted but can we please see them play 1 game before we place the future of the team on their shoulders.

Eh...we did? Taylor didn't start full time until Game 2 or 3. Same for Rogers. Campbell sat full season and a half. I don't think they'll do anything until after TC, but if Kelly/Thomas look like they can handle, I don't think they'll hesitate to deal Moss.

[akhhorus]

I thought Jarret was a long strider with limited change of direction. I thought Kelly was alot like Plaxico Burress.

I can see that comparison. I think Colston is the best imo.

But I'm in the tank for Moss. He had an off year but I think he showed late in the season he still has his explosiveness and can still be a very good wr.

I think tales of his demise are greatly exaggerated, and feel like our wr plan revloves around Him Thomas anz Kelly with ARE being on the outs.

We'd be in trouble without Moss IMO, I just can't see those 2 rookies carrying us.

The problem is no matter how much better Moss is at the end of last year, we're switching to an offense which takes away his favorite routes.

[greatest2]

I can see that comparison. I think Colston is the best imo.



The problem is no matter how much better Moss is at the end of last year, we're switching to an offense which takes away his favorite routes.

well whats good is that i don't think they will trade Moss til after this next season, we can't have el and 2 rookies as our 3 Wideouts no matter the system. So we should see, barring injury, which could happen because of his history, if he can play in this system. he can run after the catch, but he isn't big and can't box out, etc. Depending on how moss plays this year in the new system will probably determine if he stays after this.

I Think El is gone after this year as well no matter what, but for moss i think he has a strong chance to play if he can be productive in the new system, and we can wait and see if he can be...

[Battle Cat]

Eh...we did? Taylor didn't start full time until Game 2 or 3. Same for Rogers. Campbell sat full season and a half. I don't think they'll do anything until after TC, but if Kelly/Thomas look like they can handle, I don't think they'll hesitate to deal Moss.
We had Pierson P and Stoutmire for Sean Taylor we had Walt Harris for Rogers we had Brunell for Campbell. We did not put the whole franchise on any of our first round draft picks. The backups to these rookies would be Mix and maybe Thrash or a free agent like Farris that is not the same thing.

Look I am not doubting these guys they are both very good picks. But I am never sold on any pick until you can at least see them play a little. Mario WIlliams looked like a bust to some not to me but to some. Reggie Bush on the other hand people thought was Gayle Sayers thank goodness for the Saints they kept McCallister to wait and see first. Even the Vikings kept Moore when they got Peterson. Redskins fans do this all the time we want the instant fix and gradification we will reap the rewards of this draft for the next 6-7years and won't know how good it is until a couple of years down the road.

[akhhorus]

We had Pierson P and Stoutmire for Sean Taylor we had Walt Harris for Rogers we had Brunell for Campbell. We did not put the whole franchise on any of our first round draft picks. The backups to these rookies would be Mix and maybe Thrash or a free agent like Farris that is not the same thing.

And we wouldn't be putting the "whole franchise" on Thomas/Kelly. Trading Moss would still leave us ARE and Cooley, who have shown that they play well with Campbell. Also, Brunell played very well in 2005, thus Campbell could sit for 2005. Like I said earlier, dumping Moss is putting the minimum expectation of 30ish catches for 400ish yards on each of the rookie WRs to make up the production. Thats not much.

Look I am not doubting these guys they are both very good picks. But I am never sold on any pick until you can at least see them play a little. Mario WIlliams looked like a bust to some not to me but to some. Reggie Bush on the other hand people thought was Gayle Sayers thank goodness for the Saints they kept McCallister to wait and see first. Even the Vikings kept Moore when they got Peterson. Redskins fans do this all the time we want the instant fix and gradification we will reap the rewards of this draft for the next 6-7years and want know how good it is until a couple of years down the road.

The Vikings kept Chester Taylor, and they kept him because of Peterson's history of injury problems more than likely. The Saints were running a 2 back system, which is why they kept Deuce around-and Bush has shown he's a slasher who needs a RB to grind out the yards like Deuce.

[Battle Cat]

And we wouldn't be putting the "whole franchise" on Thomas/Kelly. Trading Moss would still leave us ARE and Cooley, who have shown that they play well with Campbell. Also, Brunell played very well in 2005, thus Campbell could sit for 2005. Like I said earlier, dumping Moss is putting the minimum expectation of 30ish catches for 400ish yards on each of the rookie WRs to make up the production. Thats not much.



The Vikings kept Chester Taylor, and they kept him because of Peterson's history of injury problems more than likely. The Saints were running a 2 back system, which is why they kept Deuce around-and Bush has shown he's a slasher who needs a RB to grind out the yards like Deuce.
Putting a rookie against the other teams top corner allows you to double team the other receiver whether it be ARE or the other rookie. This then allows the other safety to drop down in the box since none of the 3 are deep threats. This allows more exotic blitzes and also allows the other defense to stuff Clinton Portis and the run. That is putting the whole franchise on 2 rookies imo.

[akhhorus]

Putting a rookie against the other teams top corner allows you to double team the other receiver whether it be ARE or the other rookie.

Doubling up Cooley, frees up Thomas/ARE/Kelly and/or Davis. Doubling up ARe would still leave 3 WRs in looser coverage. If we got 1 WR, I would agree with you, but adding 2 that defenses don't know yet should prevent what you say will happen.

This then allows the other safety to drop down in the box since none of the 3 are deep threats.

Thomas has the speed to be a deep threat.

This allows more exotic blitzes and also allows the other defense to stuff Clinton Portis and the run. That is putting the whole franchise on 2 rookies imo.

And we would have 2 TEs in Davis/Cooley to run the hot routes for Campbell to bail out into, so if they want to Run Dog, we can PA out in the tiger formation and hit the TEs on bail outs.

[Battle Cat]

Doubling up Cooley, frees up Thomas/ARE/Kelly and/or Davis. Doubling up ARe would still leave 3 WRs in looser coverage. If we got 1 WR, I would agree with you, but adding 2 that defenses don't know yet should prevent what you say will happen.



Thomas has the speed to be a deep threat.



And we would have 2 TEs in Davis/Cooley to run the hot routes for Campbell to bail out into, so if they want to Run Dog, we can PA out in the tiger formation and hit the TEs on bail outs.
So now you want to depend on 2 rookie wide receivers and a rookie tight end when it comes to the twin te formation. I don't think teams are going to double team Cooley any more than they double team Gates or Gonzalez they may bump him with a linebacker to break his momentum then let a safety take up the coverage after a few yards but probably not double team him. ANd absolutely no one is double teaming ARE. And you base Thomas deep threat ability against the Big Ten? or his 40 time in shorts at a combine?

Or we could keep S. Moss let teams double him like they did last year and let the rookies work against the second best corner and Randle El against the nickel corner and let the two rookies compete along with Mix for which one of the 3 gets on the field.

[akhhorus]

So now you want to depend on 2 rookie wide receivers and a rookie tight end when it comes to the twin te formation.

As opposed to what? Moss? A square peg in a round hole in this offense.

I don't think teams are going to double team Cooley any more than they double team Gates or Gonzalez they may bump him with a linebacker to break his momentum then let a safety take up the coverage after a few yards but probably not double team him. ANd absolutely no one is double teaming ARE.

Excuse me, you're just wrong here. Teams double up Cooley as much as they can. They'll continue to do no matter what.

And you base Thomas deep threat ability against the Big Ten? or his 40 time in shorts at a combine?

His game day performances, where he was a deep threat-when Mich State decided to throw to him deep.

Or we could keep S. Moss let teams double him like they did last year and let the rookies work against the second best corner and Randle El against the nickel corner and let the two rookies compete along with Mix for which one of the 3 gets on the field.

Why would anyone double up Moss when he's not going to be going deep that much in Zorn's offense and he's a screw up waiting to happen with the short timing routes? I'd rather have the tough flanker, even if he's a rookie, in there than him. I know you're giant fan of his, but c'mon.

[Battle Cat]

As opposed to what? Moss? A square peg in a round hole in this offense.



Excuse me, you're just wrong here. Teams double up Cooley as much as they can. They'll continue to do no matter what.



His game day performances, where he was a deep threat-when Mich State decided to throw to him deep.



Why would anyone double up Moss when he's not going to be going deep that much in Zorn's offense and he's a screw up waiting to happen with the short timing routes? I'd rather have the tough flanker, even if he's a rookie, in there than him. I know you're giant fan of his, but c'mon.
I am a big fan of Moss and I am going to be a fan of the rookies. My point is if we were a team that went 6-10 last year I would be all for what you are saying. Lets rebuild right now might as well get it started. But we were a team that made the playoffs and the Giants were not that much better than us. We should have beat them twice last year. So a playoff team from the year before depending on 2 rookie wide outs is just insane in my opinoin.

And by no means am I downing our rookies. I am waiting to see on Jake Long, Chris Long, Gholston and all the rest. None have done anything in the NFL yet so it is not just our rookies that have to prove something.

PS. Going deep in the Big Ten is not the same as going deep in the SEC or the NFL.

[akhhorus]

I am a big fan of Moss and I am going to be a fan of the rookies. My point is if we were a team that went 6-10 last year I would be all for what you are saying. Lets rebuild right now might as well get it started. But we were a team that made the playoffs and the Giants were not that much better than us. We should have beat them twice last year. So a playoff team from the year before depending on 2 rookie wide outs is just insane in my opinoin.

Except we would have a pro bowl level TE in Cooley and a quality WR in ARE also. The rookies wouldn't be asked to carry the load with those two still in place.

And by no means am I downing our rookies. I am waiting to see on Jake Long, Chris Long, Gholston and all the rest. None have done anything in the NFL yet so it is not just our rookies that have to prove something.

Thats fair, but Moss has proven to us what he is and what he isn't. He isn't that good, and we're switching to an offense which he's not suited for.

PS. Going deep in the Big Ten is not the same as going deep in the SEC or the NFL.

No, really? /sarcasm. I guess we shouldn't draft any WRs to go deep since they've never done it in the NFL.

[Battle Cat]

Ok let me state this one more time. I just want to see these guys against a NFL corner one time before we get rid of our number 1 wide receiver. Can we at least wait for 1 catch. One mini camp. So we all can see that we have Fitzgerald and Boldin like I know we have and not Micheal Westbrook and Charles Rogers like I know there is no chance that we have. But lets see them play first before we take the best receiver off of a playoff team. Why not trade Cooley since we got the new tight end while we are at it.

If you disagree that is fine.

[akhhorus]

Ok let me state this one more time.

I understand your point, but I think that its in error.

I just want to see these guys against a NFL corner one time before we get rid of our number 1 wide receiver. Can we at least wait for 1 catch. One mini camp. So we all can see that we have Fitzgerald and Boldin like I know we have and not Micheal Westbrook and Charles Rogers like I know there is no chance that we have. But lets see them play first before we take the best receiver off of a playoff team.

Didn't I say that I wouldn't trade Moss until TC or the preseason unless we got blown away by an offer?

Why not trade Cooley since we got the new tight end while we are at it.

Because Cooley is performing well, clicks with the Qb and is a good fit for the current offense. I can't say that Moss does anything in that list.

[Battle Cat]

I understand your point, but I think that its in error.



Didn't I say that I wouldn't trade Moss until TC or the preseason unless we got blown away by an offer?



Because Cooley is performing well, clicks with the Qb and is a good fit for the current offense. I can't say that Moss does anything in that list.
You want to trade him for a defensive end which I doubt is possible with Vinny and company since Greg Williams leaves and drafts 2 defensive ends, I think we know who is against drafting d lineman. So even if we do trade him we will not get what you are looking for imo. I say hold on to him bring the rookies along slowly and see where we are at the end of this year. Then get rid of ARE for sure and possibly S. Moss. I would love for these 2 to come on like gang busters signed to 2nd round contracts it would guarantee we would have plenty of money freed up to get what ever we want next year but I think you are putting the horse before the wagon.

[akhhorus]

You want to trade him for a defensive end which I doubt is possible with Vinny and company since Greg Williams leaves and drafts 2 defensive ends, I think we know who is against drafting d lineman.

Thats not a reason to keep Moss. Even in your hypothetical inside of my hypothetical.

So even if we do trade him we will not get what you are looking for imo.

See above.

I say hold on to him bring the rookies along slowly and see where we are at the end of this year. Then get rid of ARE for sure and possibly S. Moss. I would love for these 2 to come on like gang busters signed to 2nd round contracts it would guarantee we would have plenty of money freed up to get what ever we want next year but I think you are putting the horse before the wagon.

As I've said 4 or 5 times now: I wouldn't deal him until I saw the rookies. If they look good, then Moss is first on the chopping block.

[silverspring]

Great write up.

Not the draft i was initially looking for but it is hard to argue. I definitely would have liked to see calais campbell instead of davis. Davis looks like a great prospect, but between cooley and sellers i just don't see the need. Of course one injury could change that view. Even though campbell has some question marks that would have really made feel good about the direction of the franchise. When the Davis pick was called i was definitely cursing.

In terms of the WR bonanza, I would much rather we spend 2 early draft picks on WR then the chad johnson deal. Getting these guys in the second round makes them fairly affordable as well, compared to 20 million guaranteed for 30 year old ocho cinco. We clearly needed one WR and I think we all know WRs are often positions that turn into busts. I think by drafting two we can at least expect that one of these guys turn out to be a legit player.

I don't like the qb pick either, but i am happy with the other picks. I think we really solidified the offense. The oline picks are huge. I am in absolute shock that we got kerry brown undrafted. In my redskins mock i had us picking him in the third round, i think this pick up is huge.

[akhhorus]

Great write up.

Not the draft i was initially looking for but it is hard to argue. I definitely would have liked to see calais campbell instead of davis. Davis looks like a great prospect, but between cooley and sellers i just don't see the need. Of course one injury could change that view. Even though campbell has some question marks that would have really made feel good about the direction of the franchise. When the Davis pick was called i was definitely cursing.

In terms of the WR bonanza, I would much rather we spend 2 early draft picks on WR then the chad johnson deal. Getting these guys in the second round makes them fairly affordable as well, compared to 20 million guaranteed for 30 year old ocho cinco. We clearly needed one WR and I think we all know WRs are often positions that turn into busts. I think by drafting two we can at least expect that one of these guys turn out to be a legit player.

I don't like the qb pick either, but i am happy with the other picks. I think we really solidified the offense. The oline picks are huge. I am in absolute shock that we got kerry brown undrafted. In my redskins mock i had us picking him in the third round, i think this pick up is huge.


Thanks. I think(about 99.9% sure) that the total contracts from the players who were picked at 34, 48 and 51 last year were less than 20 million dollars. Cost-effective solutions lol.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Thats not a reason to keep Moss. Even in your hypothetical inside of my hypothetical.



See above.



As I've said 4 or 5 times now: I wouldn't deal him until I saw the rookies. If they look good, then Moss is first on the chopping block.
I think the problem is that lots of people when they think about Moss they think about the 2005 Moss. These last 2 years he has simply not been the same player. Actually, he has been half the player, since his 2006 and 2007 numbers add up to almost exactly his 2005 numbers. And he was absolutely horrible for most of last season.
Like you said, it would not be unreasonable to expect either one or a combination of the two rookie (high-pick rookies actually) WRs to replace Moss's production in the last two years, which has been roughly 800 yds and 4/5 TDs on 55/60 catches.
Plus we would also have the other rookie TE, who, if used well, could contribute another 30ish catches for 300ish yards (pretty much the standard numbers for successful rookie TEs selected in the first or second round lately).

Again, passing up on the chance to address a gaping hole in your roster (like the DE position) to draft a third consecutive receiving threat in the second round and then relegating him to the #4WR spot doesn't really sound like the greatest idea possible.

[Red Bear]

we'd be idiots to trade santana moss this year

[guinness4health]

LDE Treebeard Daniels (Chris Wilson)
LDT Cornie Griffin (Kedric Golston)
RDT Anthony Montgomery (Cornie Griffin)
RDE Andre Carter (Rob Jackson)


so do this mean you don't think that Demetric Evans isn't going to make the team or was this an accidental omission?

[akhhorus]

so do this mean you don't think that Demetric Evans isn't going to make the team or was this an accidental omission?

If he makes the team, he'll be a 3rd stringer.

[bergiemoore]

What would be the cap implications of cutting or trading Moss this year, versus next year? What potential trading partners are there that would need his services? Which DE/DT would you pursue in such a proposed trade?

[akhhorus]

What would be the cap implications of cutting or trading Moss this year, versus next year? What potential trading partners are there that would need his services? Which DE/DT would you pursue in such a proposed trade?

If we do it after June 1st(i believe the skins have a june 1st move available and you can make it a trade), the skins would save a few million this year(depending on his restructure, which didn't appear to be substantial) and a couple million next year. If they just dealt him before june 1st(or you can't use the june 1st rule on him being dealt), they would save 1.5-2 million this year(again depending on his restructure) and several million a year beyond. As for targets, I would call these teams about these guys(in order):
Miami: For Jason Taylor
Seattle: For Darryl Tapp(and a pick)
Tennessee: For picks
Balto: For Bart Scott and one of their young DL projects(which allows us to dump Washington).

I would also call Arizona about Dockett(they don't need Moss), Jacksonville about Reggie Heyward(they don't need Moss probably) and New Orleans about Will Smith(they don't need Moss either).

[SpicyMcHaggis]

we'd be idiots to trade santana moss this year

Yes, because Moss has really put up HOF numbers these last two years (and besides 2005, in general throughout his career).

[Hr fan]

Read the thread to this point and think one of Akh's observations is being minimized, that being a trade would take place in the time frame of TC, not before (unless some team blows us away). This allows Zorn/Campbell to see who looks like he is clicking with JC and is willing to work with JC overtime, as Moss would not the last couple of years. Keep him if necessary, but let the hard workers establish a raport with JC and color Moss gone.

[Red Bear]

Yes, because Moss has really put up HOF numbers these last two years (and besides 2005, in general throughout his career).

and yeah because 2 rookies who have never played in the NFL have been projected as hall of famers out of college :rolleyes:

regardless, moss has still been our best WR the last three seasons, even if he hasnt matched his 2005 season stats. why take what appears to finally be a strength(the WR position) and make it weak again by shipping off moss? and i dont know how anyone can say moss isnt suited for this offense if you havent seen him in it, also this will be the first time he has had some tall guys at WR as a complement to take some pressure off him, lets see what he can do with it and what our rookie WRs can do before making silly projections to ship him out of town.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

and yeah because 2 rookies who have never played in the NFL have been projected as hall of famers out of college :rolleyes:

regardless, moss has still been our best WR the last three seasons, even if he hasnt matched his 2005 season stats. why take what appears to finally be a strength(the WR position) and make it weak again by shipping off moss? and i dont know how anyone can say moss isnt suited for this offense if you havent seen him in it, also this will be the first time he has had some tall guys at WR as a complement to take some pressure off him, lets see what he can do with it and what our rookie WRs can do before making silly projections to ship him out of town.
I didn't say they would project as hall of famers. I only said that replacing the Moss of last year (when he was NOT our best receiver) or of 2006 should not be that big of a deal for two (or three if you count Davis) rookie receivers.

I'm not saying that we should cut him or just give him away, but if a WR-needy team comes around before the beginning of the season (meaning our coaches have had the chance to take a look at the rookies) and we can get a good defensive end (for example), then I think it would be foolish not to take advantage of the situation.

By the way, I don't see what having or not having tall receivers around him has to do with his cronic hamstring injuries or the numerous dropped balls he had last year or with taking himself out of a game.

[Smiley]

Good stuff Akh. I'm not buying the conspiracy stuff though....good analysis, I was looking foward to giving you some guff but it's not warranted. Hail!!

[Patrick]

Good stuff Akh. I'm not buying the conspiracy stuff though....good analysis, I was looking foward to giving you some guff but it's not warranted. Hail!!

Akh lives for Guff ! ........... :D

[shane88]

and yeah because 2 rookies who have never played in the NFL have been projected as hall of famers out of college :rolleyes:

regardless, moss has still been our best WR the last three seasons, even if he hasnt matched his 2005 season stats. why take what appears to finally be a strength(the WR position) and make it weak again by shipping off moss? and i dont know how anyone can say moss isnt suited for this offense if you havent seen him in it, also this will be the first time he has had some tall guys at WR as a complement to take some pressure off him, lets see what he can do with it and what our rookie WRs can do before making silly projections to ship him out of town.

And IMO, that's a sad statement about our total receiving corps. Supplanting Moss, production wise, with the two rookies isn't really much of a stretch in my mind. Don't get me wrong, I like Moss. But with his history of hammy pulls, a WCO offense and his diminutive size, and seeming to not click with JC, I think he's certainly expendable. I say shop him around once TC gets under way and the Coaches see what the kiddies have to offer.

[akhhorus]

and yeah because 2 rookies who have never played in the NFL have been projected as hall of famers out of college :rolleyes:

regardless, moss has still been our best WR the last three seasons, even if he hasnt matched his 2005 season stats. why take what appears to finally be a strength(the WR position) and make it weak again by shipping off moss? and i dont know how anyone can say moss isnt suited for this offense if you havent seen him in it, also this will be the first time he has had some tall guys at WR as a complement to take some pressure off him, lets see what he can do with it and what our rookie WRs can do before making silly projections to ship him out of town.

Santana Moss hasn't been in the top 30(in some cases in top 50) of WRs in the NFL in either catches or yards in 2006 and 2007. And he's one of the highest paid players on the team. Why do you think he's such an asset to this team?

[dj_stouty]

I'm still on the ARE bandwagon...so I'm open to talking with teams about trading Moss. I'm still not convinced Moss' head is in football right now. Since his Pro Bowl season in '05...he has only had (5) 100-yard games over the past 2 seasons. He turns 29 this year...and guys his age with chronic leg/foot injuries rarely turn things around. I don't believe Zorn would have spent his first 3 picks of his first draft taking offensive playmakers/receivers if he didn't lack confidence in his top WR on the roster.

I'm with Akh. We need to look into trading him him away for a DE or future picks. Give me Will Smith, anyday over Moss.

[Keino]

Santana Moss hasn't been in the top 30(in some cases in top 50) of WRs in the NFL in either catches or yards in 2006 and 2007. And he's one of the highest paid players on the team. Why do you think he's such an asset to this team?

While I agree with you and DJ, that if offered a DE Upgrade, parting ways with Moss is well worth it. But I can tell you why I think he's an asset, when healthy of course.

Moss Stretches he field like no other WR on our Team. His route running is superb IMO. I think his skill set makes him a valuable asset on this team for a number of reasons. The aforementioned Stretching of the field (JC really needs to hit on some bombs to him early in the season to increase the effectiveness of this threat), and related to stretching the field, he should open things up for our young bigger WRs underneath.

Frankly, I'd like to give Moss a chance to work on the same unit with these big Rookies and see how they mesh. Of course assuming no "Offers we cannot refuse" surface. I am hoping his recent marriage has eased some of the turmoil that was evidently affecting his play last season.

[Red Bear]

I didn't say they would project as hall of famers. I only said that replacing the Moss of last year (when he was NOT our best receiver) or of 2006 should not be that big of a deal for two (or three if you count Davis) rookie receivers.

I'm not saying that we should cut him or just give him away, but if a WR-needy team comes around before the beginning of the season (meaning our coaches have had the chance to take a look at the rookies) and we can get a good defensive end (for example), then I think it would be foolish not to take advantage of the situation.

By the way, I don't see what having or not having tall receivers around him has to do with his cronic hamstring injuries or the numerous dropped balls he had last year or with taking himself out of a game.

i didnt say you said theyd project as hall of famers, but you set the bar that high by saying moss hasnt put up those kind of numbers in your typically sarcastic fashion of posting. i never said anything about injuries, im talking in context that if moss is on the field which would mean hes healthy enough to play if not fully healthy. and as far as getting a look at the rookies, it means nothing unless they do it in real games. you could have two taylor jacobs in practice who cant get it done on game day, then where does that leave us? im also convinced that santana would not net us the top notch DE many of you cry for daily, it would most likely cost us a pick or two in next years draft as well. and since i doubt moss would go straight up for a dominant or even good DE since Dlineman are high in demand right now and dont come cheap unless drafted, and theres no gaurantees a drafted DE will make it in the NFL. why weaken our WR corp for an avg DE who wont strengthen our line all that much if any?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

i didnt say you said theyd project as hall of famers, but you set the bar that high by saying moss hasnt put up those kind of numbers in your typically sarcastic fashion of posting.

No, I didn't set the bar that high. You were the one that set the bar that high, and caused my sarcastic response, by saying that "we would be idiots to trade santana moss this year" without any kind of explanation, and completely ignoring anything that any previous poster wrote or anything that Moss has done in the past couple of years.

i never said anything about injuries, im talking in context that if moss is on the field which would mean hes healthy enough to play if not fully healthy.

But unfortunately, you can't ignore the health issue as well, since Moss has proved to be extremely fragile pretty much throughout his career.

and as far as getting a look at the rookies, it means nothing unless they do it in real games. you could have two taylor jacobs in practice who cant get it done on game day, then where does that leave us?
This is a fair point, but as I said earlier, I think that trading him right away would be a high risk/high reward situation, whereas trading him at the end of next year (or not at all) would be playing it safer, but not necessarily the better option.

im also convinced that santana would not net us the top notch DE many of you cry for daily, it would most likely cost us a pick or two in next years draft as well. and since i doubt moss would go straight up for a dominant or even good DE since Dlineman are high in demand right now and dont come cheap unless drafted, and theres no gaurantees a drafted DE will make it in the NFL. why weaken our WR corp for an avg DE who wont strengthen our line all that much if any?
Well, if nobody offers anything decent then that pretty much makes it all a moot point, we would still be stuck with Philip Daniels (in other words, nobody) as a starting defensive end, and 2 extremely price WRs, plus a Pro-Bowl TE, plus 3 second round players who are primarily receiving threats, and no way to get them enough balls to satisfy their paycheck or their draft spot (at least for next year obviously).

[akhhorus]

Christ, Moss has replaced Ramsey as the Cult leading player of the redskins. Moss has been as good as y'all think he is in 2 years, and we're moving to an offense where he's basically useless...yet he's untouchable talent? C'mon.

[Fathead]

I'd like to see what Moss can do in this offense, but he's not untouchable. If we could get a good DE for him, I'd make the trade. That won't happen, so I hope Moss can find a niche in this offense.

[Keino]

Christ, Moss has replaced Ramsey as the Cult leading player of the redskins. Moss has been as good as y'all think he is in 2 years, and we're moving to an offense where he's basically useless...yet he's untouchable talent? C'mon.

LOL. At least Moss has somewhat justified his following. Ramsey's following was just bizarre....

[csquared]

Ok let me state this one more time. I just want to see these guys against a NFL corner one time before we get rid of our number 1 wide receiver. Can we at least wait for 1 catch. One mini camp. So we all can see that we have Fitzgerald and Boldin like I know we have and not Micheal Westbrook and Charles Rogers like I know there is no chance that we have. But lets see them play first before we take the best receiver off of a playoff team. Why not trade Cooley since we got the new tight end while we are at it.

If you disagree that is fine.

We have no such thing. At best we have 2 #2's and 2 rookies. Not sure i understand your man crush on Moss. He had 1 good year 1. Do you like his looks? Trading Cooley who has put up consistent numbers over the last 3 years makes no sense. Getting rid of a 1 hit wonder in Moss makes much more sense.

[dj_stouty]

LOL. At least Moss has somewhat justified his following. Ramsey's following was just bizarre....

Yeah. Ramsey never even sniffed Hawaii, yet his followers thought of him in the same light as a Pro Bowler. (They said Spurrier "ruined him" and he never lived up to his potential. HA!) The only cool thing about Patrick was that he had a really cool best friend. (Jansen) Other than that, he is just a great javelin thrower in college. May the TTT rest in peace on the Broncos' bench.

I agree with one of your previous posts that Moss is a solid deep threat who can stretch the field. But your caveat rings true; IF he is healthy. He has been plagued with hamstring issues his entire career. (I didn't heed the Jets' fans warnings) I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying he will never play all 16 regular season games in any one season for the rest of his career. Now, I'm not about to give him the Fred Taylor award for being the most "injury prone" at his position...but it is a serious concern; especially with ARE, Kelly, Devin, Cooley and Fred all looking to share catches.

I can certainly live with him on the roster this year to prove his worth...but if we can improve ourselves at one of the d-line starting positions, I'll gladly retire my Moss pro bowl jersey in return.

[Red Bear]

No, I didn't set the bar that high. You were the one that set the bar that high, and caused my sarcastic response, by saying that "we would be idiots to trade santana moss this year" without any kind of explanation, and completely ignoring anything that any previous poster wrote or anything that Moss has done in the past couple of years.


But unfortunately, you can't ignore the health issue as well, since Moss has proved to be extremely fragile pretty much throughout his career.

This is a fair point, but as I said earlier, I think that trading him right away would be a high risk/high reward situation, whereas trading him at the end of next year (or not at all) would be playing it safer, but not necessarily the better option.

Well, if nobody offers anything decent then that pretty much makes it all a moot point, we would still be stuck with Philip Daniels (in other words, nobody) as a starting defensive end, and 2 extremely price WRs, plus a Pro-Bowl TE, plus 3 second round players who are primarily receiving threats, and no way to get them enough balls to satisfy their paycheck or their draft spot (at least for next year obviously).

you think i ignored what others wrote, just keep assuming that if you wish, the fact is i just dont agree with it. youre the one mentioning HOF, not me, you set the bar.

i could just as easily say trading him now isn't necessarily the better option as well. his value right now just isnt high enough to get what yall covet/seek to get for him so your point is just as moot.

also the more playmakers we have the fresher we will be able to keep them throughout the season. youre blinded by your want for a DL so bad that youd probably be willing to do anything to get one thats not on our current roster

[colkurtz]

you think i ignored what others wrote, just keep assuming that if you wish, the fact is i just dont agree with it. youre the one mentioning HOF, not me, you set the bar.

i could just as easily say trading him now isn't necessarily the better option as well. his value right now just isnt high enough to get what yall covet/seek to get for him so your point is just as moot.

also the more playmakers we have the fresher we will be able to keep them throughout the season. youre blinded by your want for a DL so bad that youd probably be willing to do anything to get one thats not on our current roster

This isn't about getting Moss for a DE. Moss has had one good season out of the last three [ 3 seasons ago]. He's had injury problems. He is playing nowhere near his peak nor the salary we are giving him. Last season he dropped passes, left a game and played so poorly in one game that we lost it. He and JC aren't in sync. Moss refused to practice with JC last pre-season. Finally, the upcoming WCO is not suited to Moss's size and playing style.

Zorn has come in with the goal to re-invigorate the offense. The fact that his first three picks in his first draft are all WR / TE shows what he thinks of our current group of WR - especially Santana.

There will be high scrutiny of the new WR / TE in the OTA's, TC and pre-season. The new coach will also be looking at Moss closely. If Santana can contribute now, he will stay. But Zorn is not going to support Moss just because he had a good season back in 2005. He may be dealt sooner rather than later for future picks or a position of need if there isn't a big improvement. We're paying him too much and he's been historically hurt too much in the season to keep him otherwise.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

you think i ignored what others wrote, just keep assuming that if you wish, the fact is i just dont agree with it. youre the one mentioning HOF, not me, you set the bar.

I'm sorry, but where in the phrase "we'd be idiots to trade santana moss" do you even try to debate with the (many) other people who have said that they would not be against that possilibity? Are we just all idiots?
And by saying that a team or GM would be an idiot to trade a certain player, you are giving Moss way too much credit for what he has done lately. Again, I think many, including you, when talking about Moss, tend to refer to the 2005 Moss, which is unfortunately a distant memory.

i could just as easily say trading him now isn't necessarily the better option as well. his value right now just isnt high enough to get what yall covet/seek to get for him so your point is just as moot.

What do you think the odds are of his value at the beginning of next season being higher? And again, if nobody is offering anything worthwhile, then you don't trade him and try to keep everybody happy this year (but you might wanna ask yourself why nobody is offering anything worthwhile).

also the more playmakers we have the fresher we will be able to keep them throughout the season. youre blinded by your want for a DL so bad that youd probably be willing to do anything to get one thats not on our current roster
I'm not blinded by my want for a DL. I am just considering the fact that at a vital position we have probably the worst starting DE in the league, while we have way more receivers that what we actually need (well, actually, way more receivers that are either payed a ton of money or that have been picked extremely high).

[akhhorus]

Yeah. Ramsey never even sniffed Hawaii, yet his followers thought of him in the same light as a Pro Bowler. (They said Spurrier "ruined him" and he never lived up to his potential. HA!) The only cool thing about Patrick was that he had a really cool best friend. (Jansen) Other than that, he is just a great javelin thrower in college. May the TTT rest in peace on the Broncos' bench.

I agree with one of your previous posts that Moss is a solid deep threat who can stretch the field. But your caveat rings true; IF he is healthy. He has been plagued with hamstring issues his entire career. (I didn't heed the Jets' fans warnings) I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying he will never play all 16 regular season games in any one season for the rest of his career. Now, I'm not about to give him the Fred Taylor award for being the most "injury prone" at his position...but it is a serious concern; especially with ARE, Kelly, Devin, Cooley and Fred all looking to share catches.

I can certainly live with him on the roster this year to prove his worth...but if we can improve ourselves at one of the d-line starting positions, I'll gladly retire my Moss pro bowl jersey in return.

For the money Moss counts against the cap, he has a high threshold to reach to justify keeping himself on this team, especially considering that there's 2 new rookies at his position who's draft position has be justified.

[Keino]

For the money Moss counts against the cap, he has a high threshold to reach to justify keeping himself on this team, especially considering that there's 2 new rookies at his position who's draft position has be justified.

Agreed, I think he has to have a 2005 performance I believe that was the 1st and only time he started 16 games in a season.......

[akhhorus]

Agreed, I think he has to have a 2005 performance I believe that was the 1st and only time he started 16 games in a season.......

He's started 12 games in 5 straight seasons, and 14 in 4 of those. He's missed 6 games in the last 5 years. He's gotten enough PT imo.

[Keino]

He's started 12 games in 5 straight seasons, and 14 in 4 of those. He's missed 6 games in the last 5 years. He's gotten enough PT imo.

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. 2005 is the only year I can remember him staying healthy for the entirety of the season, while producing better than he had any other year of his career. He will need a 16 start, Career type year to justify his pay given what we have tied up in the position, financially.

[Red Bear]

I'm sorry, but where in the phrase "we'd be idiots to trade santana moss" do you even try to debate with the (many) other people who have said that they would not be against that possilibity? Are we just all idiots?
And by saying that a team or GM would be an idiot to trade a certain player, you are giving Moss way too much credit for what he has done lately. Again, I think many, including you, when talking about Moss, tend to refer to the 2005 Moss, which is unfortunately a distant memory.

What do you think the odds are of his value at the beginning of next season being higher? And again, if nobody is offering anything worthwhile, then you don't trade him and try to keep everybody happy this year (but you might wanna ask yourself why nobody is offering anything worthwhile).

I'm not blinded by my want for a DL. I am just considering the fact that at a vital position we have probably the worst starting DE in the league, while we have way more receivers that what we actually need (well, actually, way more receivers that are either payed a ton of money or that have been picked extremely high).

no matter what you say, it makes no sense to take a position of collective strength and one that just became a strength at that, and make it a weakness again right away. remember its our offense that has been behind the curve the last few years not the defense(with the exception of 2006). theres no need to jump on the trade santana bandwagon just because ahk has an agenda against him. youll say he doesnt have the intangibles to be good in a west coast offense when yall havent seen him in a wco, way to make vague assumptions ala pete prisco, len p, etc...and you seem to agree moss doesnt have much value right now, so why trade him for peanuts and leave our offense with only one experienced WR(not including thrash) who has never even had a 1000 yard season, put up decent TD numbers, or anything. atleast you know that potential is there with santana, not so much with randle el. i never called any posters here idiots, dont twist my words, but the front office would be idiots to trade him at any point this season. trading moss to reach for a DE really doesnt make any sense especially when youre not gonna get a probowl caliber guy or even consistently solid guy in return. remember when this team reaches its usually a huge mistake and you end up with guys like malcontent brandon lloyd or a one year rental for tj duckett that cost us way too much in the way of draft picks.

[colkurtz]

Agreed, I think he has to have a 2005 performance I believe that was the 1st and only time he started 16 games in a season.......

Yeah - it's about salary versus performance. The new rookies will be far cheaper, younger, bigger and probably more suitable for the WCO.

Santana is going need a big and full season to stay longer. I doubt he can do it.

[akhhorus]

no matter what you say, it makes no sense to take a position of collective strength and one that just became a strength at that, and make it a weakness again right away. remember its our offense that has been behind the curve the last few years not the defense(with the exception of 2006). theres no need to jump on the trade santana bandwagon just because ahk has an agenda against him.

My agenda against him is the same agenda against any player who's highly paid, acts like a jerk, doesn't perform well on the field and thinks the team should be tailored for him.

youll say he doesnt have the intangibles to be good in a west coast offense when yall havent seen him in a wco, way to make vague assumptions ala pete prisco, len p, etc

Yes we have. The Jets tried that with him for a year, and he was a disaster. They tailored the offense more for him the following year and he did well.

...and you seem to agree moss doesnt have much value right now, so why trade him for peanuts and leave our offense with only one experienced WR(not including thrash) who has never even had a 1000 yard season, put up decent TD numbers, or anything. atleast you know that potential is there with santana, not so much with randle el. i never called any posters here idiots, dont twist my words, but the front office would be idiots to trade him at any point this season.

Asking the rookies to replace his production isn't asking much, experienced or not.

trading moss to reach for a DE really doesnt make any sense especially when youre not gonna get a probowl caliber guy or even consistently solid guy in return. remember when this team reaches its usually a huge mistake and you end up with guys like malcontent brandon lloyd or a one year rental for tj duckett that cost us way too much in the way of draft picks.

Good thing we wouldn't be reaching here then.

[Battle Cat]

We have no such thing. At best we have 2 #2's and 2 rookies. Not sure i understand your man crush on Moss. He had 1 good year 1. Do you like his looks? Trading Cooley who has put up consistent numbers over the last 3 years makes no sense. Getting rid of a 1 hit wonder in Moss makes much more sense.
No it has nothing to do with is looks. It has to do when the quarterback plays well he seems to play well. If Campbell or our qb struggles then our wide receivers are going to struggle like they have so far be it rookies or vets. When we have a Pro Bowl type performance from our qb then our wide receivers will magicly presto chango be good again as S. Moss was in 2005. It is just not rocket science to me and to suggest that you know from college or practice or whatever what rookies can do I would ask what your man crush with guys that haven't taken 1 snap. The fact one has a knee injury history doesn't even want to make you keep S. Moss at all.

Plus for the trade guys why in one breath is S. Moss the worst wide receiver in the NFL but in the next breath he is going to bring a top notch defensive end in a trade. For how bad he sounds and how bad his contract is we should just cut him to get him away from our vaunted 2nd round rookies so he doesn't poison their minds.

[akhhorus]

No it has nothing to do with is looks. It has to do when the quarterback plays well he seems to play well. If Campbell or our qb struggles then our wide receivers are going to struggle like they have so far be it rookies or vets. When we have a Pro Bowl type performance from our qb then our wide receivers will magicly presto chango be good again as S. Moss was in 2005. It is just not rocket science to me and to suggest that you know from college or practice or whatever what rookies can do I would ask what your man crush with guys that haven't taken 1 snap. The fact one has a knee injury history doesn't even want to make you keep S. Moss at all.

And as I went over with Cutter, the rest of the WRs/Tes did well with Campbell, what's Moss' excuse?

Also, its hilarious you say we have a man crush, what about you? No matter how ridiculous you end up sounding, you'll come riding to the defense of Moss

Plus for the trade guys why in one breath is S. Moss the worst wide receiver in the NFL but in the next breath he is going to bring a top notch defensive end in a trade. For how bad he sounds and how bad his contract is we should just cut him to get him away from our vaunted 2nd round rookies so he doesn't poison their minds.

A team like Miami needs a halfway decent WR and they have a surplus DE in Taylor. Your comment here shows an example of what I brought up in my previous comment.

[fent]

When we have a Pro Bowl type performance from our qb then our wide receivers will magicly presto chango be good again as S. Moss was in 2005.

you mean like the game against Green Bay when he had the worst game of his life compared to a pretty good game from Jason...or maybe Miami when he ran the wrong pattern more than he ran the right one?

i like Moss, think he's a fine receiver, but he's nothing special...it's not like we're talking about boldin/fitzgerald/TO/Randy Moss/Wayne here...it's a guy that has 2 1,000 yard seasons in a 7 year career and averages 5 TDs a season. not the greatest production over the long term.

[csquared]

No it has nothing to do with is looks. It has to do when the quarterback plays well he seems to play well. If Campbell or our qb struggles then our wide receivers are going to struggle like they have so far be it rookies or vets. When we have a Pro Bowl type performance from our qb then our wide receivers will magicly presto chango be good again as S. Moss was in 2005. It is just not rocket science to me and to suggest that you know from college or practice or whatever what rookies can do I would ask what your man crush with guys that haven't taken 1 snap. The fact one has a knee injury history doesn't even want to make you keep S. Moss at all.

Plus for the trade guys why in one breath is S. Moss the worst wide receiver in the NFL but in the next breath he is going to bring a top notch defensive end in a trade. For how bad he sounds and how bad his contract is we should just cut him to get him away from our vaunted 2nd round rookies so he doesn't poison their minds.

No man crush here my friend. Id take a bag of Wavy Lays for Moss. For the money he is making we could sign a few players. Face it he isnt earning his money. We had pretty decent Qb play last year. Moss didnt have a pretty decent year. Put me out there and i could post about the same numbers he did. Moss dropped alot of nicely thrown balls. So to say he goes as his qb goes is wrong.

[colkurtz]

Moss isn't earning the big salary the team is paying him. He's had two mediocre seasons in a row. He's been hurt a lot. He cost us at least one game last season. His head is often not in the game. He's not built for this WCO.

Can't see the problem with team looking at (possibly) replacing him with cheaper and more productive new guys, nor looking at trading him. That's the NFL - produce or move on. I think Santana will get a chance to prove himself this spring and summer. They might even keep him for another season. But he's going to have to elevate his game a lot because these new rookies are hungry, young, big and want to be here.

[Hrabanmaur]

I agree that Santana has not been a #1 WR over the last two seasons. Last season in particular was just painful to watch, between the Green Bay game which he single-handedly lost or the frequency of dropped passes.

That being said, I have a number of concerns about trading him this season.
1) It puts additional pressure on our new WRs to perform now, rather than allowing them to focus on learning and development.
2) Moss has very little trade value at this point, IMO. If we trade him, we're going to get fleeced (especially with our history of trades). I'd much prefer to keep him for a season in the hopes that he can get his act together for a good year. I don't see us losing a whole lot of value waiting for next year (what could be worse than this year?), but there is a lot more potential for him to gain value if he returns to 2005 form.
3) For once we have depth at WR; I'd prefer to relish in that for at least one season instead of keeping Jimmy Farris on speed dial.
4) Moss finally will face some competition at WR with the pups breathing down his neck. Needless to say, he wasn't sweating too much with Randle-El, James Thrash, and the receiver-who-will-not-be-named. I'd like to see how he responds to that competition before shipping him off.

My hope is that Moss, if he can stay healthy and put his head back on straight, will have a semi-productive season. I don't think we can fully gauge the impact that Taylor's death had on him. Moss has the talent to dominate. With Sean's passing, perhaps he will set out on a new mission with passion, much like Portis in the latter half of last season. I was pleased to hear that Moss was around for Jason to throw to some this off-season and take that as a sign of Moss's renewed commitment.

After this season, I am fine with trading him, but I don't think it's a wise move for the present.

[akhhorus]

I agree that Santana has not been a #1 WR over the last two seasons. Last season in particular was just painful to watch, between the Green Bay game which he single-handedly lost or the frequency of dropped passes.

That being said, I have a number of concerns about trading him this season.
1) It puts additional pressure on our new WRs to perform now, rather than allowing them to focus on learning and development.

As I've said a good 4 or 5 times in this thread, replacing Moss' production won't be that difficult. You would be asking Thomas and Kelly(nevermind Davis for this comparison) to average 30ish catches for 400 yards next season. 6 rookies did that last year, including guys with terrible Qbs in Sidney Rice and Ted Ginn jr(who sucks as a WR).

2) Moss has very little trade value at this point, IMO. If we trade him, we're going to get fleeced (especially with our history of trades). I'd much prefer to keep him for a season in the hopes that he can get his act together for a good year. I don't see us losing a whole lot of value waiting for next year (what could be worse than this year?), but there is a lot more potential for him to gain value if he returns to 2005 form.

I disagree with that. A team who needs a decent #2 WR would take him.

3) For once we have depth at WR; I'd prefer to relish in that for at least one season instead of keeping Jimmy Farris on speed dial.

And we don't have depth with Thomas/ARE/Kelly/Thrash? How does a crappy Moss suddenly make that better?

4) Moss finally will face some competition at WR with the pups breathing down his neck. Needless to say, he wasn't sweating too much with Randle-El, James Thrash, and the receiver-who-will-not-be-named. I'd like to see how he responds to that competition before shipping him off.

So, Moss was struggling when he didn't have any competition? What about 2005, when he had even less than that to compete with.

My hope is that Moss, if he can stay healthy and put his head back on straight, will have a semi-productive season. I don't think we can fully gauge the impact that Taylor's death had on him. Moss has the talent to dominate. With Sean's passing, perhaps he will set out on a new mission with passion, much like Portis in the latter half of last season. I was pleased to hear that Moss was around for Jason to throw to some this off-season and take that as a sign of Moss's renewed commitment.

Oh please. Don't stoop to that level. Moss couldn't get his crap together for the playoffs last year, or for Campbell after Taylor died.

[Battle Cat]

No man crush here my friend. Id take a bag of Wavy Lays for Moss. For the money he is making we could sign a few players. Face it he isnt earning his money. We had pretty decent Qb play last year. Moss didnt have a pretty decent year. Put me out there and i could post about the same numbers he did. Moss dropped alot of nicely thrown balls. So to say he goes as his qb goes is wrong.
Well you have one thing right you have caught as many NFL passes as the guys that you all know so well are going to replace Moss's production. I don't think you would draw the double teams that Moss did but you and the 2 rookies are pretty much on even footing as far as NFL production goes.

[akhhorus]

Well you have one thing right you have caught as many NFL passes as the guys that you all know so well are going to replace Moss's production.

For the 5th or 6th time: You would be asking Thomas and Kelly(nevermind Davis for this comparison) to average 30ish catches for 400 yards next season. 6 rookies did that last year, including guys with terrible Qbs in Sidney Rice and Ted Ginn jr(who sucks as a WR).

Even if you give Davis 20 catches for 200 yards, then Thomas/Kelly would have to only average 20 catches for 400 yards each. Stop acting like Moss' production is worth a damn.

I don't think you would draw the double teams that Moss did but you and the 2 rookies are pretty much on even footing as far as NFL production goes.

Right, because anyone is going to be scared of Moss going short and medium after last year's debacle.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

no matter what you say, it makes no sense to take a position of collective strength and one that just became a strength at that, and make it a weakness again right away.

And this is where we disagree. IMO Moss is not a good enough player to transform, by himself, a position of strength into a position of weakness, or viceversa. I am assuming you've missed the last two seasons or else I don't know how you could still think otherwise.

remember its our offense that has been behind the curve the last few years trading moss theres no need to jump on the trade santana bandwagon just because ahk has an agenda against him.

Wow, this is a particularly smart thing to say.
You will however notice that in this (http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=1103144&postcount=35) post, which dates back to before (one day earlier) this thread was started (so before I knew that akh was favorable to a trade for Moss or ARE), I mentioned that I would welcome a trade.

youll say he doesnt have the intangibles to be good in a west coast offense when yall havent seen him in a wco, way to make vague assumptions ala pete prisco, len p, etc...

I never said any of this and I don't even know who pete prisco is, but ok, if you say so...

and you seem to agree moss doesnt have much value right now, so why trade him for peanuts and leave our offense with only one experienced WR(not including thrash) who has never even had a 1000 yard season, put up decent TD numbers, or anything. atleast you know that potential is there with santana, not so much with randle el.

As other have mentioned, and as I'm sure you already know, Moss has had 2 1000 yard seasons in 7 years, so what we know pretty much for a fact is that yeah, he has the potential to have a very good season, but also that it is not very likely.

i never called any posters here idiots, dont twist my words, but the front office would be idiots to trade him at any point this season.

I'm not saying you called anybody an idiot. I am saying that by stating in such a definitive fashion that trading Moss would be idiotic, you chose not to debate with the people that favored this idea, but just to say that it would be idiotic without giving any explanation.

to reach for a DE really doesnt make any sense especially when youre not gonna get a probowl caliber guy or even consistently solid guy in return. not the defense(with the exception of 2006). remember when this team reaches its usually a huge mistake and you end up with guys like malcontent brandon lloyd or a one year rental for tj duckett that cost us way too much in the way of draft picks.
I agree. That's why I've been saying all along, and you can refer to the post I linked to previously, that we would have to get a good player in return (I specifically used the word "solid"). If we don't have that possibility, we keep Moss and see what happens.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

My opinion on Moss should be pretty well-known by now, but I'm about 80% sure about these two things:

1) We won't trade him this year, because not only would we go into the season with a woefully inexperienced receiving corps, but it's banking too much on both Kelly and Thomas panning out. What if one of them just can't play at this level? We wind up right back at the spot we were before this draft, with an extreme lack of legitimate talent on the outside.

2) The writing's on the wall for him past this season. Assuming that Kelly and Thomas do, in fact, have decent years, I'm pretty sure this will be Moss' last year as a Skin, barring either another phenomenal season or the trade of ARE instead, which, given the cap penalties, seems less likely.

[Red Bear]

My opinion on Moss should be pretty well-known by now, but I'm about 80% sure about these two things:

1) We won't trade him this year, because not only would we go into the season with a woefully inexperienced receiving corps, but it's banking too much on both Kelly and Thomas panning out. What if one of them just can't play at this level? We wind up right back at the spot we were before this draft, with an extreme lack of legitimate talent on the outside.

2) The writing's on the wall for him past this season. Assuming that Kelly and Thomas do, in fact, have decent years, I'm pretty sure this will be Moss' last year as a Skin, barring either another phenomenal season or the trade of ARE instead, which, given the cap penalties, seems less likely.

finally someone thinking logically, i fully agree on point 1 and point 2 is no stretch either. and you bring up another interesting point that with moss present the rookies wont feel as much pressure to perform and should feel a little more comfortable as they transition to the NFL and speed of the game

[akhhorus]

finally someone thinking logically

I hope you're including yourself in that. I made basically the same point Joe did with #2, only with the caveat that if Kelly/Thomas look good in the preseason, they might deal Moss(and if they're offered a quality DE for him, they should).

As for Joe's first point: why does anyone think Moss is talented now? He had one great season and has done squat since then. Why is keeping a WR who isn't that good in a system where he'll probably struggle a good move for this team?

i fully agree on point 1 and point 2 is no stretch either. and you bring up another interesting point that with moss present the rookies wont feel as much pressure to perform and should feel a little more comfortable as they transition to the NFL and speed of the game

And if Moss struggles badly in the Zorn offense(which isn't much of a stretch), then the pressure will be on the rookies to take up the slack only with the whole 'will moss play or not' unevenness that would muck things up until they got rid of Moss. If Kelly/Thomas look up to the challenge, they should clear the path for them.

[shally]

I hope you're including yourself in that. I made basically the same point Joe did with #2, only with the caveat that if Kelly/Thomas look good in the preseason, they might deal Moss(and if they're offered a quality DE for him, they should).

As for Joe's first point: why does anyone think Moss is talented now? He had one great season and has done squat since then. Why is keeping a WR who isn't that good in a system where he'll probably struggle a good move for this team?



And if Moss struggles badly in the Zorn offense(which isn't much of a stretch), then the pressure will be on the rookies to take up the slack only with the whole 'will moss play or not' unevenness that would muck things up until they got rid of Moss. If Kelly/Thomas look up to the challenge, they should clear the path for them.


i think mix has a chance to take up some of the slack as well. if nothing else, zorn will give him his chances. he should be better than moss at short routes anyway.

also, if moss really falters and mix isnt up to it, it might give thrash a chance to hold onto the last spot. one way or the other, i dont think that the rookies will be forced before they are ready

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I hope you're including yourself in that. I made basically the same point Joe did with #2, only with the caveat that if Kelly/Thomas look good in the preseason, they might deal Moss(and if they're offered a quality DE for him, they should).

As for Joe's first point: why does anyone think Moss is talented now? He had one great season and has done squat since then. Why is keeping a WR who isn't that good in a system where he'll probably struggle a good move for this team?



And if Moss struggles badly in the Zorn offense(which isn't much of a stretch), then the pressure will be on the rookies to take up the slack only with the whole 'will moss play or not' unevenness that would muck things up until they got rid of Moss. If Kelly/Thomas look up to the challenge, they should clear the path for them.
Which is exactly the same thing I said, even before this thread.
So 3 people (at least) say the same thing, yet only one of them is thinking logically?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

i think mix has a chance to take up some of the slack as well. if nothing else, zorn will give him his chances. he should be better than moss at short routes anyway.

also, if moss really falters and mix isnt up to it, it might give thrash a chance to hold onto the last spot. one way or the other, i dont think that the rookies will be forced before they are ready
Or we could also do what we did last year, when we picked up a receiver mid-season (McCardell), and he put up 1/3 of Santana's numbers in about 1/10 of the playing time.

[firehawk157]

Or we could also do what we did last year, when we picked up a receiver mid-season (McCardell), and he put up 1/3 of Santana's numbers in about 1/10 of the playing time.
Good point... Is Santana's numbers really that hard to replace? Think about his numbers before Collins was forced in... Do you remember him drawing coverage away from other players (I don't). What do we REALLY lose if we deal Moss??? Is throwing a receiver to the dogs a bit early the same as, or even comparable to, throwing a QB to the dogs (ie, hurts their long-term development)?

[Hrabanmaur]

Bottom line for me is that Moss has PROVEN he can be a #1 WR in the NFL. No other receiver on our roster can claim that.

The only rookie receiver last year to exceed Moss's production was Dwayne Bowe, who also played in all 16 games instead of Moss's 14. I understand some of you are making the argument that the two can split Moss's production, but that's a two for one. We still don't know what those two can do.

When one of our new receivers can PROVE they can be a #1 WR, then I think we should look to trade Moss but only at the right price. If they do that at the beginning of this season, so be it. Until then, I think it's premature to shop Moss.

I think we're starting to split hairs in this debate. Most people defending Moss ultimately don't seem opposed to trade. Those criticizing Moss only seem to want to make a move if the value is right and our other receivers are shaping up. The critical issue seems to be timing. Is that a fair assessment?

[akhhorus]

Bottom line for me is that Moss has PROVEN he can be a #1 WR in the NFL. No other receiver on our roster can claim that.

Are you kidding me? So because he had a great year 2 years ago and hasn't done much since then(and really didn't do much before then), he's still a #1? LOL.

The only rookie receiver last year to exceed Moss's production was Dwayne Bowe, who also played in all 16 games instead of Moss's 14. I understand some of you are making the argument that the two can split Moss's production, but that's a two for one. We still don't know what those two can do.

Huh? We don't know what those two can do, but replacing Moss' production won't be that difficult for the rookies, mainly because Moss' production has been awful. All you're asking from the rookies is for both to be as good as Ted Ginn was last year for the Phins(and he sucked), and you'll replace Moss' production.

When one of our new receivers can PROVE they can be a #1 WR, then I think we should look to trade Moss but only at the right price. If they do that at the beginning of this season, so be it. Until then, I think it's premature to shop Moss.

Unless we get an offer we can't pass up on, Moss probably will be here for 2008, but its doubtful he stays beyond then no matter what.

[Hrabanmaur]

Are you kidding me? So because he had a great year 2 years ago and hasn't done much since then(and really didn't do much before then), he's still a #1? LOL.

No, I'm not kidding you. Why don't you read my post again without being snarky. Has any other WR on our roster proven they can be a #1 WR in the NFL? (chirp, chirp, chirp). Thank you.

And thanks for ignoring the last passage of my post while you continue to beat the dead horse.

I think we're starting to split hairs in this debate. Most people defending Moss ultimately don't seem opposed to trade. Those criticizing Moss only seem to want to make a move if the value is right and our other receivers are shaping up. The critical issue seems to be timing. Is that a fair assessment?

[akhhorus]

No, I'm not kidding you. Why don't you read my post again without being snarky. Has any other WR on our roster proven they can be a #1 WR in the NFL? (chirp, chirp, chirp). Thank you.

I would argue that Moss hasn't proven that he wasn't anything more than a 1 year wonder and hasn't proven that he's a #1. Its still specious for you to try and make this argument now.

And thanks for ignoring the last passage of my post while you continue to beat the dead horse.

Considering how many times I've said: "I wouldn't do it until TC/preseason and only if Thomas/Kellly look like they can handle it" I don't feel that I have to repeat myself yet again, especially to some ultra simplistic question.

And what exactly would you call what you're doing? At least I'm not apologizing for some has-been.

[firehawk157]

Are you kidding me? So because he had a great year 2 years ago and hasn't done much since then(and really didn't do much before then), he's still a #1? LOL.

He has the capability, but he just hasn't panned out. Now, Campbell is the QB and they obviously don't hook up very well. He would be a great fit in the Saints or could contribute in the Vikings and would have good value for him, just his contributions in DC are about over.



Huh? We don't know what those two can do, but replacing Moss' production won't be that difficult for the rookies, mainly because Moss' production has been awful. All you're asking from the rookies is for both to be as good as Ted Ginn was last year for the Phins(and he sucked), and you'll replace Moss' production.

Agree, I think the loss would be minimal (I was on the opposite end of the spectrum, but I can see it now). Moss doesn't produce much and he doesn't draw much coverage away from other players.



Unless we get an offer we can't pass up on, Moss probably will be here for 2008, but its doubtful he stays beyond then no matter what.

If you were the GM, would you be gauging interest???

[akhhorus]

He has the capability, but he just hasn't panned out. Now, Campbell is the QB and they obviously don't hook up very well. He would be a great fit in the Saints or could contribute in the Vikings and would have good value for him, just his contributions in DC are about over.

I think he only has the capability in a system that is tailored to his strengths and with a Qb who'll throw him the ball only the way he likes. Even then, he's not good enough to build the offense around.


If you were the GM, would you be gauging interest???

Who says we're not. If the Skins feel that the WR position needed 2 new players drafted high, they have to be thinking about moving Moss.

[dj_stouty]

Now, Campbell is the QB and they obviously don't hook up very well.

Yes, and I've been scratching my head at that. Brunell and Moss were always on the same page...and Mark always looked towards Moss first. Jason and Moss are rarely on the same page and Jason does not view him as his go-to receiver.

The QB is the most important player on the field...and if he has confidence issues in Moss, then we should take note.

[akhhorus]

Yes, and I've been scratching my head at that. Brunell and Moss were always on the same page...and Mark always looked towards Moss first. Jason and Moss are rarely on the same page and Jason does not view him as his go-to receiver.

The QB is the most important player on the field...and if he has confidence issues in Moss, then we should take note.

I think it has to do with style. Brunell(and Collins) would underthrow the deep balls for him to adjust to, and Moss is a quality WR when he can do that 4 or 5 times a game. Campbell always looks to lead his guys, and always is expecting that if the receiver gets behind the defense, he'll break deep. This is why Cooley/ARE seem to do great with Campbell, and Moss looks frustrated with him imo.

[firehawk157]

I think he only has the capability in a system that is tailored to his strengths and with a Qb who'll throw him the ball only the way he likes. Even then, he's not good enough to build the offense around.



Who says we're not. If the Skins feel that the WR position needed 2 new players drafted high, they have to be thinking about moving Moss.
With Moss or El gone, I think the offense will actually do BETTER. I'd rather trade El, but I recognize there's just not much value there.

[Keino]

I think it has to do with style. Brunell(and Collins) would underthrow the deep balls for him to adjust to, and Moss is a quality WR when he can do that 4 or 5 times a game. Campbell always looks to lead his guys, and always is expecting that if the receiver gets behind the defense, he'll break deep. This is why Cooley/ARE seem to do great with Campbell, and Moss looks frustrated with him imo.

Exactly correct. Both QB's(Brunell & Pennnington) that Moss has had success under were not "strong-armed" and throw a Soft, yet high deep ball that allows the WR to adjust. Campbell doesn't do this. However, Campbell does need to learn to put a little more air on his deep balls, But Moss needs to adjust his game.

This is what was so annoying about Santana's apathetic approach toward developing timing with his QB last off-season who was begging for it and spent his entire summer in Ashburn.

[firehawk157]

Yes, and I've been scratching my head at that. Brunell and Moss were always on the same page...and Mark always looked towards Moss first. Jason and Moss are rarely on the same page and Jason does not view him as his go-to receiver.

The QB is the most important player on the field...and if he has confidence issues in Moss, then we should take note.
Well a lot of that has to do with Moss inability to catch Jason's throws. I remember in one of the earlier games, Jason throw a perfect throw to Santana and it bounced off his shoulder pads and right into a defender's hands. There were plenty that hit Moss in the hands and ended up being dropped balls.

[NamVet4]

I apologize for the length of this post,but I wanted to insure that I had the thoughts of my distinguished colleague correctly represented when I responded!


Posted by: Akhhorus (http://draftacademy.blogspot.com/) on Monday, April 28th, 2008
Some macro themes from this recently ended draft:

1-Santana Moss (http://www.hailredskins.com/?cat=99) and Antwaan Randle El have their heads in the guillotine, whether they like it or not. The selection of Thomas to play Split End threatens Moss directly and Kelly signals that ARE’s slashing style isn’t what they want in a possession WR. To put it succinctly, Zorn took one look at the WR corps and said: this ain’t gonna work. If Thomas/Kelly develop quickly, the harder isn’t going to be for either Moss or ARE to stay with the team.

This begs the question: experience and leadership vs. learning and on field performance?
I do not envision either of the established receivers being in jeopardy of their jobs . . .for this season!


2-Also what struck with me the first three picks is putting myself into Zorn’s shoes again and thinking: the problem which crippled the Offense (http://www.hailredskins.com/?cat=101) all year wasn’t the play calling in the red zone, it was that they didn’t have anything to throw to besides Cooley there. How many losses do we need to review where they got inside the ten, but failed to punch it in? The additions of Thomas/Davis/Kelly should make this area of the team more of strength than it’s been in years.



Agree! Hopefully we have seen the end of the “stall at 20 – 21” points while our opponents punch in an extra TD in the Red Zone. Long offensive drives that culminate in a TD rest, what is in reality, a minimally performing Defense.



3-No defenders until the 4th round, and all it was a developmental CB? I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but I think Fent was on to something when he said(and I fully agree) that it smells like Zorn is hanging him out to dry here. Zorn didn’t pick him, he was stuck with him. And the refusal, so far, to do much of anything for the Defense (http://www.hailredskins.com/?cat=100) would tend to indicate that Zorn is more than content to fix the offensive issues this Offseason (http://www.hailredskins.com/?cat=10) and let Blache coach for his job in 2008.



IMHO, Coach Zorn may get a first year “honeymoon” bye with a poor performing defense. Stuck or not stuck with his D Coordinator will still reflect Coach Zorn’s overall performance rating ( You know – wink- wink – The Danny Boys all consuming desire to win at any cost!)


4-Jason Campbell (http://www.hailredskins.com/?cat=13) might have been running the first day of the draft for the skins, but he’s officially out of excuses now. Barring major injury issues(or Kelly/Thomas/Davis bust out), Campbell now has the weaponry to be successful in the NFL (http://www.hailredskins.com/?cat=117).



I believe Campbell will be successful in the NFL and does truly have three additional rookie weapons - Barring major injury issues. The adjunct requirement is how well the rookie coach sets the offensive game plan to take advantage of those weapons.



5-A common theme I noticed in the majority of the draft picks(and now in the UDFAs) is that the skins seem to be targeting hard working intangible guys who need work on their football skills. If this continues, it would represent a major shift in the draft strategy of the redskins from their previous Gibbs and Cerrato philosophies to more developmental one.



One can only hope! However, I am still concerned with the raging controversy of “Need” vs. “BPA”. I will withhold final judgment until I see a pattern emerge in the next two drafts.



5a-Has anyone else noticed that the majority of the Skins’ day 2 draft busts have been from the West Coast? Fire that scout!

6-A lesson, perhaps brought over by Zorn from Seattle, is that the Offense (http://www.hailredskins.com/?cat=101) starts on the oline. Now, we did only draft 1 Olineman with our picks, but so far the skins have signed 5 UDFA OLmen-including some potential steals in Kerry Brown and Shannon Boatman.


IMHO any pick past the first 2 rounds are “projects”. Being the eternal optimist/pessimist fan I see good and bad in the picks – Hopefully there are still some miracles on Mt Lombardi that the football gods will grant to us in the form of one or two of the UDFA O linemen becoming a Pro Bowl player!

Thanks Akhhorus for the opportunity to discuss . . .the comments on the invidual players I wil leave to the rest of the fan base!

[Battle Cat]

For the 5th or 6th time: You would be asking Thomas and Kelly(nevermind Davis for this comparison) to average 30ish catches for 400 yards next season. 6 rookies did that last year, including guys with terrible Qbs in Sidney Rice and Ted Ginn jr(who sucks as a WR).

Even if you give Davis 20 catches for 200 yards, then Thomas/Kelly would have to only average 20 catches for 400 yards each. Stop acting like Moss' production is worth a damn.



Right, because anyone is going to be scared of Moss going short and medium after last year's debacle.
I am sure they are far more afraid of rookies who haven't took a snap and not 1st overall picks in the draft rookies or top ten or first round. No the rookies that every team in the draft passed over once and some twice have NFL coaches changing their defensive schemes and shaking in their boots. Maybe they are thinking about running the Randy Moss defense against them based on how they did in not the NFC East but the vaunted high flying offenses of the Big 10 and Big 12 where a forward pass is seen as a small interruption between run plays.

How may I ask would you rank the wide receivers on our roster right now?

[JoeDaSchmoe]

As for Joe's first point: why does anyone think Moss is talented now? He had one great season and has done squat since then. Why is keeping a WR who isn't that good in a system where he'll probably struggle a good move for this team?


Akh, my first point wasn't really based on the belief that Moss is still a #1 receiver talent, even though I obviously think he is. I realize that many disagree with that, so I'll leave it alone for now. Rather, I was simply going on the fact that Moss is, at the very least, a successful NFL receiver, which I think we all can agree with. There is a significant chance that either Thomas or Kelly will be legitimately unable to play WR at this level. If you go back over receivers drafted in the top two rounds of the past six or seven years, there are already a number who are completely out of the league. To get rid of Moss now, before we have a chance to make sure that both Thomas and Kelly can, in fact, be NFL receivers, would be to roll the dice on the chance that we might be stuck in the same exact position we've been in for the past three years while we waste time waiting for one of them to "make it" when he never actually will. If we keep Moss for at least this season, it ensures that we will at least have two (and a half, counting ARE) wide-outs who are capable of producing in the NFL, assuming at least one of the Thomas/Kelly duo has the right stuff.

[Keino]

Akh, my first point wasn't really based on the belief that Moss is still a #1 receiver talent, even though I obviously think he is. I realize that many disagree with that, so I'll leave it alone for now. Rather, I was simply going on the fact that Moss is, at the very least, a successful NFL receiver, which I think we all can agree with. There is a significant chance that either Thomas or Kelly will be legitimately unable to play WR at this level. If you go back over receivers drafted in the top two rounds of the past six or seven years, there are already a number who are completely out of the league. To get rid of Moss now, before we have a chance to make sure that both Thomas and Kelly can, in fact, be NFL receivers, would be to roll the dice on the chance that we might be stuck in the same exact position we've been in for the past three years while we waste time waiting for one of them to "make it" when he never actually will. If we keep Moss for at least this season, it ensures that we will at least have two (and a half, counting ARE) wide-outs who are capable of producing in the NFL, assuming at least one of the Thomas/Kelly duo has the right stuff.

Akh's caveat has always been "If the rookies show promise". As to what we can all agree on, I think that we have to define "success" before I can agree with that statement. He "has been" successful, but I would not describe his last 2 seasons as successful., nor would I describe his overall career that way. Not in the least. I would describe his 2005 Season and his 2003 seasons as successful. I would describe the rest as Average to Mediocre.

When you bring home a "C" in class is that success to you?

[akhhorus]

Exactly correct. Both QB's(Brunell & Pennnington) that Moss has had success under were not "strong-armed" and throw a Soft, yet high deep ball that allows the WR to adjust. Campbell doesn't do this. However, Campbell does need to learn to put a little more air on his deep balls, But Moss needs to adjust his game.

This is what was so annoying about Santana's apathetic approach toward developing timing with his QB last off-season who was begging for it and spent his entire summer in Ashburn.

Even if Campbell and Moss ran off to Vermont and got married this offseason, it won't matter: I truly believe that Moss has decided that he likes what he likes and won't give it his all if he's not getting that.

I apologize for the length of this post,but I wanted to insure that I had the thoughts of my distinguished colleague correctly represented when I responded!

Thank you kind sir.

IMHO, Coach Zorn may get a first year “honeymoon” bye with a poor performing defense. Stuck or not stuck with his D Coordinator will still reflect Coach Zorn’s overall performance rating ( You know – wink- wink – The Danny Boys all consuming desire to win at any cost!)

Agreed, but Vanny McSnyderatto clearly have Zorn as the apple of their eye. If the offense looked markedly improved and the defense struggles, I don't think they would deny the request from him to bring in a new DC whom he knows(and with the change coming in Seattle after this season, he'd probably bring someone from there to here).

Thanks Akhhorus for the opportunity to discuss . . .the comments on the invidual players I wil leave to the rest of the fan base!

Always a pleasure NamVet.

I am sure they are far more afraid of rookies who haven't took a snap and not 1st overall picks in the draft rookies or top ten or first round.

They aren't afraid of a speed WR who's playing in an offense where he won't be going deep.

No the rookies that every team in the draft passed over once and some twice have NFL coaches changing their defensive schemes and shaking in their boots.

See above.

And I didn't say that Thomas or Kelly scared anyone. I said no one is scared of Moss, nor should they be.

Maybe they are thinking about running the Randy Moss defense against them based on how they did in not the NFC East but the vaunted high flying offenses of the Big 10 and Big 12 where a forward pass is seen as a small interruption between run plays.

So, by your rambling logic, the best move-and what you should have supported 100%-is trading for someone like Chad Johnson or Roy WIlliams?

How may I ask would you rank the wide receivers on our roster right now?

Considering the offense we're going to run, I'd start Thomas and Kelly at the X and Y spots respectively, trade Moss and use ARE in the slot.

Akh, my first point wasn't really based on the belief that Moss is still a #1 receiver talent, even though I obviously think he is. I realize that many disagree with that, so I'll leave it alone for now. Rather, I was simply going on the fact that Moss is, at the very least, a successful NFL receiver, which I think we all can agree with.

I fully disagree that he's a #1 WR talent. I further disagree that he's a successful NFL WR now(30ish-50ish in catches and yards in the NFL the last 2 years), especially considering how much he counts against the cap.

There is a significant chance that either Thomas or Kelly will be legitimately unable to play WR at this level. If you go back over receivers drafted in the top two rounds of the past six or seven years, there are already a number who are completely out of the league.

Since 2000:
69 WRs taken in the first two rounds.
13 out of the league
26 of them made the pro bowl or could be called a quality player.
1 Super Bowl MVP

I'll take my chances.

To get rid of Moss now, before we have a chance to make sure that both Thomas and Kelly can, in fact, be NFL receivers, would be to roll the dice on the chance that we might be stuck in the same exact position we've been in for the past three years while we waste time waiting for one of them to "make it" when he never actually will. If we keep Moss for at least this season, it ensures that we will at least have two (and a half, counting ARE) wide-outs who are capable of producing in the NFL, assuming at least one of the Thomas/Kelly duo has the right stuff.

And haven't I said basically the same thing, only with the caveat that if Thomas/Kelly look like they can make the transition to the NFL as rookies, that the skins should explore dealing Moss now.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Akh and Keino, the fact that you're defining two 60-catch, 800-yard seasons as "unsuccessful" kind of defeats the purpose of having this conversation when I've already set the bar lower than that for Kelly and Thomas. I'm saying that there is a legitimate chance one of them will never be able to sniff a season half as good as that. I would love to have two starting receivers on the roster who would define an "unsuccessful" season as 55-60 catches and 800 yards.

As for "looking like they can make the transition," I'd much rather wait a year to see whether or not they actually can, instead of basing very important roster moves on training camp.

[akhhorus]

Akh and Keino, the fact that you're defining two 60-catch, 800-yard seasons as "unsuccessful" kind of defeats the purpose of having this conversation when I've already set the bar lower than that for Kelly and Thomas. I'm saying that there is a legitimate chance one of them will never be able to sniff a season half as good as that. I would love to have two starting receivers on the roster who would define an "unsuccessful" season as 55-60 catches and 800 yards.

For his cap charge and for the reputation and ability you and the rest of the Mossites are declaring Moss has, 60/800 isn't much. He was 34th in the NFL in receiving yards last year(behind such "stars" as Greg Jennings, Shaun McDonald, Kevin Curtis, and Bobby Engram ) and 36th in catches last year(behind such stars as Reggie Bush, Mike Furrey, Owen Daniels, Kevin Walter, Curtis again, Westbrook[who had 30 more catches], Derrick Mason, etc). Why, again, do you think he's so irreplaceable?

[bergiemoore]

When you bring home a "C" in class is that success to you?

"D" is for Diploma! :rolleyes:

[Battle Cat]

Even if Campbell and Moss ran off to Vermont and got married this offseason, it won't matter: I truly believe that Moss has decided that he likes what he likes and won't give it his all if he's not getting that.



Thank you kind sir.



Agreed, but Vanny McSnyderatto clearly have Zorn as the apple of their eye. If the offense looked markedly improved and the defense struggles, I don't think they would deny the request from him to bring in a new DC whom he knows(and with the change coming in Seattle after this season, he'd probably bring someone from there to here).



Always a pleasure NamVet.



They aren't afraid of a speed WR who's playing in an offense where he won't be going deep.



See above.

And I didn't say that Thomas or Kelly scared anyone. I said no one is scared of Moss, nor should they be.



So, by your rambling logic, the best move-and what you should have supported 100%-is trading for someone like Chad Johnson or Roy WIlliams?



Considering the offense we're going to run, I'd start Thomas and Kelly at the X and Y spots respectively, trade Moss and use ARE in the slot.



I fully disagree that he's a #1 WR talent. I further disagree that he's a successful NFL WR now(30ish-50ish in catches and yards in the NFL the last 2 years), especially considering how much he counts against the cap.






And haven't I said basically the same thing, only with the caveat that if Thomas/Kelly look like they can make the transition to the NFL as rookies, that the skins should explore dealing Moss now.
1. I hope our offense is not nearly as predictable as you describe. Never going to go deep. LOL ok. Ever heard of a west coast guy named Brett Favre and dont tell me about Hassleback of course he and Chad Pennington dont go deep because they cant throw the ball that far. I hope this is more John Elway or Brett Favre west coast than Chad Pennington and Matt Hassleback. And Zorn worked under Holmgren he is not his mini me. But glad you are in the meetings and keeping us informed that we are never going deep. But let me share a little snippet from a question and answer with our wide receiver coach:

Q: How much did Santana's injuries from the last two years play a factor in the decision to draft two wide receivers? A: "Santana came on strong at the end of last year. He had a tough year with the injury, but that's not normal for him. Santana is a phenomenal player. He is the best player we have. [In the draft], we we're just trying to enhance the position. When defenses start to doubling coverage on Santana, we need to be able to throw the ball somewhere else."

I think that says enough unless you are privy to meetings our wide receiver coach isn't. Maybe the same ones that you and Zorn discuss never going deep and getting our wide receivers killed and no running game because we can't stretch the field.

[Battle Cat]

One more little snippet:

Q: How happy are you to work with a pair of big receivers?
A: "I'm excited. They're bigger and faster. They will spread the field. When it's 3rd-and-7 or 3rd-and-9, you can't have the defense go, 'Where's Santana? Where's 89?' Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly have shown the ability to make plays--and make plays in traffic. They have big bodies and big targets. I'm sure Jason [Campbell] is going to appreciate the taller wide receivers."

You might want to invite Stan Hixon to yours and Zorn's meetings. Since he will be coaching these guys. Because he also beleives that rookie wide receivers have to learn to get off press coverage and learn to adjust to the speed of the NFL game. I think in your meeting you should inform him he only has untill September to get this done.

[akhhorus]

1. I hope our offense is not nearly as predictable as you describe. Never going to go deep. LOL ok.

Never is a strong comment, we'll certain not go deep as much as Moss will like, nor will we go deep that much.

Ever heard of a west coast guy named Brett Favre and dont tell me about Hassleback of course he and Chad Pennington dont go deep because they cant throw the ball that far. I hope this is more John Elway or Brett Favre west coast than Chad Pennington and Matt Hassleback. And Zorn worked under Holmgren he is not his mini me. But glad you are in the meetings and keeping us informed that we are never going deep.

First off: It isn't asking too much that you write clearer. You're rambling all over the place yet again.

Favre has played a different kind of WCO ever since he joined the league, his arm strength demanded that they use it down the field. Hasselbeck doesn't go deep that often.

I'm just going on what Zorn has said and what Seattle ran with him there. You can hope for whatever you want, doesn't change a thing.

But let me share a little snippet from a question and answer with our wide receiver coach:
Q: How much did Santana's injuries from the last two years play a factor in the decision to draft two wide receivers? A: "Santana came on strong at the end of last year. He had a tough year with the injury, but that's not normal for him. Santana is a phenomenal player. He is the best player we have. [In the draft], we we're just trying to enhance the position. When defenses start to doubling coverage on Santana, we need to be able to throw the ball somewhere else."

I think that says enough unless you are privy to meetings our wide receiver coach isn't. Maybe the same ones that you and Zorn discuss never going deep and getting our wide receivers killed and no running game because we can't stretch the field.

Zorn is pretty clearly blowing smoke here. Moss came on strong last year, but he's not going to have that Qb, nor are they playing the offense he came on strong there. Drafting 1 player is "enhancing the position," drafting 2 is house-cleaning. But feel free to continue your Moss campaign all you want. I hope at least he's paying you well lol.

One more little snippet:

Q: How happy are you to work with a pair of big receivers?
A: "I'm excited. They're bigger and faster. They will spread the field. When it's 3rd-and-7 or 3rd-and-9, you can't have the defense go, 'Where's Santana? Where's 89?' Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly have shown the ability to make plays--and make plays in traffic. They have big bodies and big targets. I'm sure Jason [Campbell] is going to appreciate the taller wide receivers."

And? If anything this snippet proves more of what I(and others) are saying. If Campbell is going to appreciate the taller WRs, then Moss' stats will drop again. And there's no way they're going to pay Moss 6ish million a year to be a decoy.

You might want to invite Stan Hixon to yours and Zorn's meetings. Since he will be coaching these guys. Because he also beleives that rookie wide receivers have to learn to get off press coverage and learn to adjust to the speed of the NFL game. I think in your meeting you should inform him he only has untill September to get this done.

And? How does this go against what I've said about Moss' future? Or are you just not reading what I actually write, again.

[Battle Cat]

Never is a strong comment, we'll certain not go deep as much as Moss will like, nor will we go deep that much.



First off: It isn't asking too much that you write clearer. You're rambling all over the place yet again.

Favre has played a different kind of WCO ever since he joined the league, his arm strength demanded that they use it down the field. Hasselbeck doesn't go deep that often.

I'm just going on what Zorn has said and what Seattle ran with him there. You can hope for whatever you want, doesn't change a thing.



Zorn is pretty clearly blowing smoke here. Moss came on strong last year, but he's not going to have that Qb, nor are they playing the offense he came on strong there. Drafting 1 player is "enhancing the position," drafting 2 is house-cleaning. But feel free to continue your Moss campaign all you want. I hope at least he's paying you well lol.



And? If anything this snippet proves more of what I(and others) are saying. If Campbell is going to appreciate the taller WRs, then Moss' stats will drop again. And there's no way they're going to pay Moss 6ish million a year to be a decoy.



And? How does this go against what I've said about Moss' future? Or are you just not reading what I actually write, again.
I am not asking you to read my writings you can go to www.redskins.com and read the interview with Stan Hixon. I don't think you will like what they wrote their either. I think that interview explains my point of view better than I can ever write it since you dont understand my form of English.

[akhhorus]

I am not asking you to read my writings you can go to www.redskins.com and read the interview with Stan Hixon. I don't think you will like what they wrote their either. I think that interview explains my point of view better than I can ever write it since you dont understand my form of English.

Thanks for not replying to anything I said.

From the Hixon Article, the question you neglected to post(which is hilarious since its the only question directly on point to the issue we're discussing):
Q: Do you envision Thomas and Kelly eventually pushing starters Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El?
A: "It is hard to say right now. We are expecting great things out of [Thomas and Kelly], but they have to mature and learn the system. Once they get here and get used to the speed of the game, we will make a decision from there."

That's what's known as a dodge or a "non-answer answer." Sounds like they expect Thomas/Kelly to push Moss/ARE out soon.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

For his cap charge and for the reputation and ability you and the rest of the Mossites are declaring Moss has, 60/800 isn't much. He was 34th in the NFL in receiving yards last year(behind such "stars" as Greg Jennings, Shaun McDonald, Kevin Curtis, and Bobby Engram ) and 36th in catches last year(behind such stars as Reggie Bush, Mike Furrey, Owen Daniels, Kevin Walter, Curtis again, Westbrook[who had 30 more catches], Derrick Mason, etc). Why, again, do you think he's so irreplaceable?

Akh, when have I at all mentioned cap space?

The biggest problem we have had in the receiving corps for the past three years is that we have had literally no one behind Moss who has been capable of putting up even average numbers. There's been no one else who could step up. Yes, ARE did it in flashes last year, but that was also the most productive year he's ever had, so I'd like to see him do it again before we rely on him as a #2 guy. Moreover, Zorn has said outright that he wants to use ARE as a slot man, which means we still need two legitimate threats on the outside.

Whether or not you believe Moss is capable of putting up several more 1,000-yard seasons is irrelevant to me, because he's proven that even when he has an "awful" year, he puts up 800 yards, which is more than anyone else on the roster can say. My fear if we trade him before this season is that either Kelly or Thomas will turn into a bust, and then we'll spend the next three years in exactly the same position: stuck with one legitimate receiving threat while we trot out the David Pattens, James Thrashes, and Brandon Lloyds of the world to be our #2 guy. That's what I'm talking about.

As far as the cap goes, that's another discussion entirely. I'm not here to haggle over how to best use our cap. I'm here to point out that getting rid of Moss could very well leave us with no #2 receiver until 2010.

[akhhorus]

Akh, when have I at all mentioned cap space?

Its relevant to any discussion of Moss. Whether or not you brought it up.

The biggest problem we have had in the receiving corps for the past three years is that we have had literally no one behind Moss who has been capable of putting up even average numbers. There's been no one else who could step up. Yes, ARE did it in flashes last year, but that was also the most productive year he's ever had, so I'd like to see him do it again before we rely on him as a #2 guy. Moreover, Zorn has said outright that he wants to use ARE as a slot man, which means we still need two legitimate threats on the outside.

Whether or not you believe Moss is capable of putting up several more 1,000-yard seasons is irrelevant to me, because he's proven that even when he has an "awful" year, he puts up 800 yards, which is more than anyone else on the roster can say.

So, should we have signed Jevon Kearse after the Eagles cut him, since he's had more sacks than anyone on the Redskins' roster has had in a season?

My fear if we trade him before this season is that either Kelly or Thomas will turn into a bust, and then we'll spend the next three years in exactly the same position: stuck with one legitimate receiving threat while we trot out the David Pattens, James Thrashes, and Brandon Lloyds of the world to be our #2 guy. That's what I'm talking about.

Good thing I've said-God knows how many times now-that we shouldn't do anything until we know what we have in Thomas/Kelly.

As far as the cap goes, that's another discussion entirely. I'm not here to haggle over how to best use our cap. I'm here to point out that getting rid of Moss could very well leave us with no #2 receiver until 2010.

And if Moss can't get any better than what he is now, so what? I'd rather take that cash and give it to someone else who can produce that well for half the cash. And yes, I can find multiple WRs who outperformed Moss last year for much cheaper.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Its relevant to any discussion of Moss. Whether or not you brought it up.

Not when the entirety of my point is, "Getting rid of Moss too soon could leave us without a #2 receiver for several more years." That point would remain true if Moss was being paid $100 million this year.

So, should we have signed Jevon Kearse after the Eagles cut him, since he's had more sacks than anyone on the Redskins' roster has had in a season?

If he came dirt-cheap, sure. I'm not here to argue in favor of Moss' contract. He's overpaid for what he's done the past two years. I acknowledge that.

Good thing I've said-God knows how many times now-that we shouldn't do anything until we know what we have in Thomas/Kelly.

But you seem to be suggesting that we could "know what we have" before the season starts. After all, we've been talking about getting rid of Moss before this season and whether or not it's a good idea. If the discussion is whether or not to get rid of Moss if both Thomas and Kelly are Pro Bowlers, what's the point?

And if Moss can't get any better than what he is now, so what? I'd rather take that cash and give it to someone else who can produce that well for half the cash. And yes, I can find multiple WRs who outperformed Moss last year for much cheaper.

Erm... who are you gonna find before this season starts to give that cash to?

[akhhorus]

Not when the entirety of my point is, "Getting rid of Moss too soon could leave us without a #2 receiver for several more years." That point would remain true if Moss was being paid $100 million this year.

Assuming two things:
1-The rookies don't come through.
2-We don't go out and get a vet to go with them with the money saved from dumping Moss, if you in fact needed another WR.

If he came dirt-cheap, sure. I'm not here to argue in favor of Moss' contract. He's overpaid for what he's done the past two years. I acknowledge that.

But you seem to be suggesting that we could "know what we have" before the season starts. After all, we've been talking about getting rid of Moss before this season and whether or not it's a good idea. If the discussion is whether or not to get rid of Moss if both Thomas and Kelly are Pro Bowlers, what's the point?

I think that the Redskins will have a good idea about Thomas/Kelly's abilities(at least their potential) by the end of TC.

Erm... who are you gonna find before this season starts to give that cash to?

Thats irrelevant. As I've said about 122 times already, you're not asking much of the rookies to replace Moss' production. You're asking them each to be Ted Ginn from last year. I honestly don't think you'll need another Vet WR to help pick up the slack if you dumped Moss.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Assuming two things:
1-The rookies don't come through.
2-We don't go out and get a vet to go with them with the money saved from dumping Moss, if you in fact needed another WR.

What vets are available in free agency who would be more than the equivalent of Thrash and Patten when we used them at #2?

I think that the Redskins will have a good idea about Thomas/Kelly's abilities(at least their potential) by the end of TC.

That may be where the actual line is drawn in this discussion, because I think that's an incredibly risky statement to make. I would absolutely want to see them play in real NFL games first.

Thats irrelevant. As I've said about 122 times already, you're not asking much of the rookies to replace Moss' production. You're asking them each to be Ted Ginn from last year. I honestly don't think you'll need another Vet WR to help pick up the slack if you dumped Moss.

If the goal is merely for Thomas and Kelly to combine into one of Moss' "awful" years, then yes, that's correct. But that's not what I'm talking about. What I want, and what I believe all of us have wanted since 2004, is to have receivers capable of putting up the numbers of legitimate #1 and #2 wide-outs in the NFL. You seem to believe that we will be able to divine whether or not Thomas and Kelly will be our future starters before August is over. I argue that such incredible prognostication is very unlikely, and, given the likelihood of Kelly or Thomas never being more than one of the Rod Gardners/Charles Rogerses/Peter Warricks of the world, it would be prudent to hold on to a guy who we know can at least put up the numbers of a #2 receiver on a good offense until Thomas and Kelly have shown us something. It's not about them combining for 800 yards in their rookie years. It's about whether or not they're going to turn into #1 and #2 for us.

[akhhorus]

What vets are available in free agency who would be more than the equivalent of Thrash and Patten when we used them at #2?

What are you asking? What Mid level WRs are available in fa? Or are you attempting a loaded question? To answer the first possibility: Bobby Engram, Jabar Gaffney and Amani Toomer would be targets for that.

That may be where the actual line is drawn in this discussion, because I think that's an incredibly risky statement to make. I would absolutely want to see them play in real NFL games first.

Fine, you can wait till then if you want. I'm saying that I think the coaches will have a good idea of what Thomas & Kelly are after TC. If they think that Thomas/Kelly are up to the challenge, I think they'll move Moss.

If the goal is merely for Thomas and Kelly to combine into one of Moss' "awful" years, then yes, that's correct.

So, you're automatically assuming that moss will suddenly bounce back into his 2005 form? Based on what? Faith? Hope? Animal sacrifice?

But that's not what I'm talking about. What I want, and what I believe all of us have wanted since 2004, is to have receivers capable of putting up the numbers of legitimate #1 and #2 wide-outs in the NFL.

And why do you think Moss is capable of doing that? His numbers the past two years haven't been #1 numbers. They've barely been #2 numbers. He's paid like a #1. Only he has 2 new WRs now cutting into his potential catches.

You seem to believe that we will be able to divine whether or not Thomas and Kelly will be our future starters before August is over.

That's your opinion.

I argue that such incredible prognostication is very unlikely

Again: your opinion, but a quality coach should be able to get a good idea of a draft pick's capabilities by the end of his first camp.

and, given the likelihood of Kelly or Thomas never being more than one of the Rod Gardners/Charles Rogerses/Peter Warricks of the world, it would be prudent to hold on to a guy who we know can at least put up the numbers of a #2 receiver on a good offense until Thomas and Kelly have shown us something. It's not about them combining for 800 yards in their rookie years. It's about whether or not they're going to turn into #1 and #2 for us.

I've been over the WRs for the last few years who you claim are such a risky proposition. You didn't respond to my numbers saying that you're overstating the risk. I do find it funny that you're positively assuming Moss can come close to repeating 2005, but are negatively assuming that Thomas and/or Kelly will be busts. Thats hilarious.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

What are you asking? What Mid level WRs are available in fa? Or are you attempting a loaded question? To answer the first possibility: Bobby Engram, Jabar Gaffney and Amani Toomer would be targets for that.

None of those guys are free agents now; if you mean waiting to see if they're cut after June and the swapping one of them for Moss, then I'd be cool with Engram, against Gaffney, and on the fence about Toomer.

Fine, you can wait till then if you want. I'm saying that I think the coaches will have a good idea of what Thomas & Kelly are after TC. If they think that Thomas/Kelly are up to the challenge, I think they'll move Moss...

Again: your opinion, but a quality coach should be able to get a good idea of a draft pick's capabilities by the end of his first camp.

What? I've heard countless coaches talk about how they never thought certain players would be anything special after their rookie summers, only to be proven wrong over the next few years. I've heard Hall of Fame coaches say that. I've also heard the opposite. Hell, I bet most coaches would tell you that they have no clue how rookie players, especially receivers, will do over their careers based off of their first training camp.

So, you're automatically assuming that moss will suddenly bounce back into his 2005 form? Based on what? Faith? Hope? Animal sacrifice?

And why do you think Moss is capable of doing that? His numbers the past two years haven't been #1 numbers. They've barely been #2 numbers. He's paid like a #1. Only he has 2 new WRs now cutting into his potential catches.

I've been over the WRs for the last few years who you claim are such a risky proposition. You didn't respond to my numbers saying that you're overstating the risk. I do find it funny that you're positively assuming Moss can come close to repeating 2005, but are negatively assuming that Thomas and/or Kelly will be busts. Thats hilarious.

Again, no I'm not. I've said it repeatedly - I'm keeping my belief about Moss' potential to bounce back out of this. I'm saying that Moss' numbers, even in his "awful" years, are those of a #2 receiver on a good offense in the NFL. Not the best #2 receivers, but about half of the top 16 offenses in the league will have #2 numbers similar to Moss' for the past two years. There is a good chance that one of the rookies will not even be able to do that.

Is he expensive? Sure. Would I be happy with him never putting up more than 800-ish yards again? No. But if we spend two of our top three picks on wide-outs, then we'd better not spend the next few years still looking for a #2 receiver.

[akhhorus]

None of those guys are free agents now; if you mean waiting to see if they're cut after June and the swapping one of them for Moss, then I'd be cool with Engram, against Gaffney, and on the fence about Toomer.

If we're dealing Moss during TC, we're rolling with what we have now.

What? I've heard countless coaches talk about how they never thought certain players would be anything special after their rookie summers, only to be proven wrong over the next few years. I've heard Hall of Fame coaches say that. I've also heard the opposite. Hell, I bet most coaches would tell you that they have no clue how rookie players, especially receivers, will do over their careers based off of their first training camp.

I'm not talking about their PR public comments, I'm talking about internal discussions. They should have a good idea of the talent levels of Thomas/Kelly after TC, if they feel they can handle it, they'll dump Moss.

Again, no I'm not. I've said it repeatedly - I'm keeping my belief about Moss' potential to bounce back out of this. I'm saying that Moss' numbers, even in his "awful" years, are those of a #2 receiver on a good offense in the NFL. Not the best #2 receivers, but about half of the top 16 offenses in the league will have #2 numbers similar to Moss' for the past two years. There is a good chance that one of the rookies will not even be able to do that.

1. Based on what? Blind faith? Because that's about all you have.
2. Disagree. Moss's stats wouldn't have put him in the top 2 of the following top 10 passing teams last year:
Green Bay
New Orleans
Dallas(barely in the top 3)
Zona
Cincy
Detroit
and New England.

He barely makes it in Philly(he would have been 4th in catches there) or Seattle, and he does in Indy, mainly because Harrison missed the season essentially.
3-There's an much bigger chance that Moss doesn't change his stats upwards. I'd rather dump Moss and hope the rookies grow into the role.

Is he expensive? Sure. Would I be happy with him never putting up more than 800-ish yards again? No. But if we spend two of our top three picks on wide-outs, then we'd better not spend the next few years still looking for a #2 receiver.

Well duh. But this isn't much of a reason to keep Moss. If Moss was costing 2ish million against the cap each year, then he's not worth dumping. But I'll take my chances on the rookies(along with Cooley in his prime) and use that money saved from Moss' contract to upgrade other parts of the team. ARE and Cooley showed that they flourish with Campbell and they further showed in 2007 that they can handle an increased load with Moss turning unreliable. Them+Davis+Thomas/Kelly should be enough to keep the passing game going.

[Red Bear]

Never is a strong comment, we'll certain not go deep as much as Moss will like, nor will we go deep that much.



First off: It isn't asking too much that you write clearer. You're rambling all over the place yet again.

Favre has played a different kind of WCO ever since he joined the league, his arm strength demanded that they use it down the field. Hasselbeck doesn't go deep that often.

I'm just going on what Zorn has said and what Seattle ran with him there. You can hope for whatever you want, doesn't change a thing.



Zorn is pretty clearly blowing smoke here. Moss came on strong last year, but he's not going to have that Qb, nor are they playing the offense he came on strong there. Drafting 1 player is "enhancing the position," drafting 2 is house-cleaning. But feel free to continue your Moss campaign all you want. I hope at least he's paying you well lol.



And? If anything this snippet proves more of what I(and others) are saying. If Campbell is going to appreciate the taller WRs, then Moss' stats will drop again. And there's no way they're going to pay Moss 6ish million a year to be a decoy.



And? How does this go against what I've said about Moss' future? Or are you just not reading what I actually write, again.

lol, its absurd you say we wont go deep as much like youve traveled in time and seen our season already.

i understood dudes post just fine as well, you just didnt really have a response.

favre spent a lot of his years under holmgren who zorn has coached under for how many years prior to coming here? he didnt just start throwing deep under sherman/mccarthy.

you say zorn is blowing smoke yet its a hixon interview, are you really reading what battlecat said? and i guess the colts drafting 3 centers is house cleaning and not enhancing depth, guess their probowl center isnt good enough anymore and their gaurds totally suck too.

and campbell will only appreciate the taller wide receivers if they perform, heighth doesnt mean a thing if the player isnt performing anyways. but we dont yet know if theyll perform, and if they dont shipping off moss based on TC and preseason performances by the rookies would be premature and like joethefan said leave us in the same predicament as the last few years

[Red Bear]

One more little snippet:

You might want to invite Stan Hixon to yours and Zorn's meetings. Since he will be coaching these guys. Because he also beleives that rookie wide receivers have to learn to get off press coverage and learn to adjust to the speed of the NFL game. I think in your meeting you should inform him he only has untill September to get this done.


Thanks for not replying to anything I said.

From the Hixon Article, the question you neglected to post(which is hilarious since its the only question directly on point to the issue we're discussing):


That's what's known as a dodge or a "non-answer answer." Sounds like they expect Thomas/Kelly to push Moss/ARE out soon.

he did address it, once again i think its you thats not reading what others are saying

[Red Bear]

So, should we have signed Jevon Kearse after the Eagles cut him, since he's had more sacks than anyone on the Redskins' roster has had in a season?



Good thing I've said-God knows how many times now-that we shouldn't do anything until we know what we have in Thomas/Kelly.


signing kearse would be very different as he hasnt been on our roster, moss is already on the roster rendering the point youre trying to make irrelevant.

and i seriously dont think TC and preseason are enough time to know what we have in thomas and kelly, if you do then your anti-moss agenda is worse than previously thought

[akhhorus]

lol, its absurd you say we wont go deep as much like youve traveled in time and seen our season already.

Zorn is almost certainly going to run the Holmgren offense, which hasn't gone deep much in Seattle. Its abusrd to think that Zorn is suddenly going to run a deep pass offense when he's never be a part of one.

i understood dudes post just fine as well, you just didnt really have a response.

Dudes? Huh? I've responded to every post, you've just rambled on pointless about Moss, trying to throw up any excuse to defend him.

favre spent a lot of his years under holmgren who zorn has coached under for how many years prior to coming here? he didnt just start throwing deep under sherman/mccarthy.

Holmgren ran a different offense in Green Bay than he did in Green Bay(which probably has to do with his assistants there then in Green Bay vs his in Seattle). Zorn never had any connection to GB or Favre outside of working for Holmgren. And Seattle ran a shorter pass offense under Holmgren.

lyou say zorn is blowing smoke yet its a hixon interview, are you really reading what battlecat said?

I made a mistake I rectified quickly.

and i guess the colts drafting 3 centers is house cleaning and not enhancing depth, guess their probowl center isnt good enough anymore and their gaurds totally suck too.

They let one guard walk via FA and did nothing to replace him. Saturday is a great OC, but he's retiring soon. Btw, I've heard that Pollack might replace Diem at RT. And they drafted one high, and two very late(6th and 7th round), so the situation isn't comparable. Sorry, no points this round.

and campbell will only appreciate the taller wide receivers if they perform, heighth doesnt mean a thing if the player isnt performing anyways. but we dont yet know if theyll perform, and if they dont shipping off moss based on TC and preseason performances by the rookies would be premature and like joethefan said leave us in the same predicament as the last few years

En ingles por favor. And Moss has been the primary cause of this predicament, and has been the main reason the WR position has disappointed over the last couple years, and is the reason the Skins went out and drafted 2 new WRs high.

[akhhorus]

he did address it, once again i think its you thats not reading what others are saying

No, Battle Cat didn't address that question. Maybe you need to learn "reading comprehension".

signing kearse would be very different as he hasnt been on our roster, moss is already on the roster rendering the point youre trying to make irrelevant.

No, JDS' point was that moss was "proven" to put up better stats than what the skins have else at WR. Jevon Kearse has proven that he can put up more sacks than any DE on the roster. The point is relevant. Whether or not he's on the team is irrelevant.

and i seriously dont think TC and preseason are enough time to know what we have in thomas and kelly, if you do then your anti-moss agenda is worse than previously thought

I could say the same thing about your pro-moss agenda. I've one of Moss' biggest defenders on this board, even after 2006. But I don't see how anyone can think he's going to be a quality WR ever again.

Also, my point(which is among the many points you've ignored or just don't understand) is that if the coaches see that Thomas and Kelly have the talent to take over the position for Moss(and ARE) in TC/Preseason(which shouldn't be difficult for a good coaching staff, no matter what you think), then they should explore Moss.

[Red Bear]

Zorn is almost certainly going to run the Holmgren offense, which hasn't gone deep much in Seattle. Its abusrd to think that Zorn is suddenly going to run a deep pass offense when he's never be a part of one.



Dudes? Huh? I've responded to every post, you've just rambled on pointless about Moss, trying to throw up any excuse to defend him.



Holmgren ran a different offense in Green Bay than he did in Green Bay(which probably has to do with his assistants there then in Green Bay vs his in Seattle). Zorn never had any connection to GB or Favre outside of working for Holmgren. And Seattle ran a shorter pass offense under Holmgren.



I made a mistake I rectified quickly.



They let one guard walk via FA and did nothing to replace him. Saturday is a great OC, but he's retiring soon. Btw, I've heard that Pollack might replace Diem at RT. And they drafted one high, and two very late(6th and 7th round), so the situation isn't comparable. Sorry, no points this round.



En ingles por favor. And Moss has been the primary cause of this predicament, and has been the main reason the WR position has disappointed over the last couple years, and is the reason the Skins went out and drafted 2 new WRs high.

yeah, im sure zorn is going to let campbells big arm go to waste. or is that holmgren just never had the QB with the big arm in Seattle to throw deep like with favre.

dude referring to battlecats. and im not 'rambling pointless', im thinking logically about the situation. youre thinking irrationally, in a rush to push moss out of town because we pay him more than a couple of unproven rookies. TC isnt enough time to know if theyll succeed, you seem to forget taylor jacobs.

once again, hasselbecks arm isnt brett favres arm.

yeah saturdays retiring soon because you know what he feels in his heart :rolleyes: its not like his play has fallen off a cliff. whether pollack can make the transition to right tackle is unforseen, its a lot different than playing center. and another point, the eagles draft a lot of olineman every year, yet they dont house clean the oline every year. and who is tracking points? this is just a discussion, i wasnt aware we were keeping score...

[akhhorus]

yeah, im sure zorn is going to let campbells big arm go to waste. or is that holmgren just never had the QB with the big arm in Seattle to throw deep like with favre.

Campbell has a good arm, but he's nowhere near Favre's

dude referring to battlecats.

Then say Battle Cat.

and im not 'rambling pointless', im thinking logically about the situation.

LOL, keep dreaming there.

youre thinking irrationally, in a rush to push moss out of town because we pay him more than a couple of unproven rookies. TC isnt enough time to know if theyll succeed, you seem to forget taylor jacobs.

I remember TJ, but I also remember the Skins saying he looked great in TC, but never seemed to give him much playing time. So, I don't believe the BS that "TJ was the best in practice."

once again, hasselbecks arm isnt brett favres arm.

Neither is Campbell's.

yeah saturdays retiring soon because you know what he feels in his heart :rolleyes:

That was reported on the NFLN when they took Pollack. And he's 33 in a position which wears you down.

its not like his play has fallen off a cliff.

I didn't say it was because of his play.

whether pollack can make the transition to right tackle is unforseen, its a lot different than playing center. and another point, the eagles draft a lot of olineman every year, yet they dont house clean the oline every year.

The Eagles do push out their older Olinemen. They've dumped Fraley, Hicks, Welbourne, Brzezinski and Mayberry in the last few years. Also, the Eagles haven't drafted 2 Olinemen high together since 1991. So the comparison doesn't make any sense.

and who is tracking points? this is just a discussion, i wasnt aware we were keeping score...

Its a sarcastic expression.

[Red Bear]

No, Battle Cat didn't address that question. Maybe you need to learn "reading comprehension".



No, JDS' point was that moss was "proven" to put up better stats than what the skins have else at WR. Jevon Kearse has proven that he can put up more sacks than any DE on the roster. The point is relevant. Whether or not he's on the team is irrelevant.



I could say the same thing about your pro-moss agenda. I've one of Moss' biggest defenders on this board, even after 2006. But I don't see how anyone can think he's going to be a quality WR ever again.

Also, my point(which is among the many points you've ignored or just don't understand) is that if the coaches see that Thomas and Kelly have the talent to take over the position for Moss(and ARE) in TC/Preseason(which shouldn't be difficult for a good coaching staff, no matter what you think), then they should explore Moss.

battlecat mentioned the quote in the hixon q&a that you said he ignored and said was hilarious. and dont resort to petty tactics as dissing someones english skills, it looks petty when you do such things on a regular basis. and moss has put up better stats than any WR on the team the last few years, hes about as proven as anyone has been that has played WR for us since coles. the point is relevant but your so quick to discount anything you disagree with even tho its the most obvious thing. and i fully understand what youve said, and again there goes that petty tactic of attacking someones intelligence just because they dont agree with you.

[akhhorus]

battlecat mentioned the quote in the hixon q&a that you said he ignored and said was hilarious.

This is the question:
Q: Do you envision Thomas and Kelly eventually pushing starters Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El?
A: "It is hard to say right now. We are expecting great things out of [Thomas and Kelly], but they have to mature and learn the system. Once they get here and get used to the speed of the game, we will make a decision from there."

This is what Battle Cat said:
"You might want to invite Stan Hixon to yours and Zorn's meetings. Since he will be coaching these guys. Because he also beleives that rookie wide receivers have to learn to get off press coverage and learn to adjust to the speed of the NFL game. I think in your meeting you should inform him he only has untill September to get this done."

Yes, Battle cat brings up the one part of the speed of the NFL game, but mysteriously(probably intentionally) doesn't mention the rest of the quote/question which is extremely more relevant to the issue at hand of whether or not Thomas/Kelly should/could push Moss out of DC.

and dont resort to petty tactics as dissing someones english skills, it looks petty when you do such things on a regular basis.

This is a written medium. If you can't string together coherent sentences, then communication is difficult.

and moss has put up better stats than any WR on the team the last few years, hes about as proven as anyone has been that has played WR for us since coles.

Well considering that ARE has only been on the team a couple years(1 year as a starter), Thrash barely plays on offense, Mix was a special teamer and we have two rookies, it wouldn't be too difficult to put up better stats than any other WR on the roster. Thats not the point. The point is that Moss is declining as a player and is the highest paid WR of the team. The team would appear to agree with me since they drafted 2 WRs(and a pass catching TE) high, despite many other needs.

the point is relevant but your so quick to discount anything you disagree with even tho its the most obvious thing. and i fully understand what youve said, and again there goes that petty tactic of attacking someones intelligence just because they dont agree with you.

I think JDS is a very intelligent poster and honestly believes what he's saying, but he himself has to admit that his argument is based on hope essentially and not hard facts. However, you and Battle Cat are just coming up with any apologia to defend Moss, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. Battle Cat's been doing it for a long time, and seems to get weaker and weaker with each passing post.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Akh, how is my argument based on hope? I've said repeatedly that I'm willing to throw away my personal belief that Moss will be a #1 receiver again, and play in the assumed reality that 60 catches and 800 yards is what he'll average if he stays with us for, say, three more years. Based on those numbers, his totals from his "horrible" years, he's an average #2 receiver in the NFL. We can argue about the salary cap and adding receiver stats together all you want, but at the end of the day, all I'm saying in this thread is that if we're going to bank our 2008 draft on receivers, then I want to make sure that we have a legitimate starting duo. I'm sick of Brandon Lloyd and David Patten and Keenan McCardell playing 40 snaps a game. I want production from both starting positions. That is all. That is my point.

[akhhorus]

Akh, how is my argument based on hope? I've said repeatedly that I'm willing to throw away my personal belief that Moss will be a #1 receiver again, and play in the assumed reality that 60 catches and 800 yards is what he'll average if he stays with us for, say, three more years. Based on those numbers, his totals from his "horrible" years, he's an average #2 receiver in the NFL. We can argue about the salary cap and adding receiver stats together all you want, but at the end of the day, all I'm saying in this thread is that if we're going to bank our 2008 draft on receivers, then I want to make sure that we have a legitimate starting duo. That is all. That is my point.

Even you have to agree that he has to do better(much better imo) even as a #2 WR for the salary he's getting. 60 catches for 800 yards might be "average" for a #2 WR, but he's getting paid like a top shelf WR. You can argue that the skins need 2 legit WRs, and I agree, but I don't think paying Moss 6 mil a year against the cap for something the skins can find a WR to do for 1.5-2.5 million a year is a smart move. TJ Houzmanzedah(one of the best #2 WRs in the NFL) got paid the same last season against the cap as Moss. Which would you rather have?

[lorimike]

Even you have to agree that he has to do better(much better imo) even as a #2 WR for the salary he's getting. 60 catches for 800 yards might be "average" for a #2 WR, but he's getting paid like a top shelf WR. You can argue that the skins need 2 legit WRs, and I agree, but I don't think paying Moss 6 mil a year against the cap for something the skins can find a WR to do for 1.5-2.5 million a year is a smart move. TJ Houzmanzedah(one of the best #2 WRs in the NFL) got paid the same last season against the cap as Moss. Which would you rather have?<<<

Don't you think Moss will at least play this season for us until they figure out if Kelly and Thomas can play? Or do you think he's trade bait already?

[akhhorus]

<<<

Don't you think Moss will at least play this season for us until they figure out if Kelly and Thomas can play? Or do you think he's trade bait already?

Former: Thats basically what I've been saying.
Latter: I wouldn't be shocked to hear that we've listened to or made some offers.

[Red Bear]

However, you and Battle Cat are just coming up with any apologia to defend Moss, no matter how ridiculous it sounds.

here is where you got me wrong. i wouldnt cry if moss was traded, its not a mancrush thing. my whole point is that it wouldnt be smart to trade him before we see what kelly and thomas can do in the regular season. if they go off during the season and play well, then perhaps entertain offers before the trade deadline. but making that judgement based on tc and preseason would be rushing it a bit

[akhhorus]

here is where you got me wrong. i wouldnt cry if moss was traded, its not a mancrush thing. my whole point is that it wouldnt be smart to trade him before we see what kelly and thomas can do in the regular season. if they go off during the season and play well, then perhaps entertain offers before the trade deadline. but making that judgement based on tc and preseason would be rushing it a bit

Thats your opinion, but if the coaches feel that Thomas & Kelly can handle it, I suspect they'll dump Moss. I don't quite why you're arguing with me on this point since I'm pointing out a 3rd person hypothetical.

[Keino]

Akh and Keino, the fact that you're defining two 60-catch, 800-yard seasons as "unsuccessful" kind of defeats the purpose of having this conversation when I've already set the bar lower than that for Kelly and Thomas. I'm saying that there is a legitimate chance one of them will never be able to sniff a season half as good as that. I would love to have two starting receivers on the roster who would define an "unsuccessful" season as 55-60 catches and 800 yards.

As for "looking like they can make the transition," I'd much rather wait a year to see whether or not they actually can, instead of basing very important roster moves on training camp.

Joe again, lets define Success. I would define an 800 yard season with 60 catches in todays NFL where 100/1200 is the Elite standard year in an year out, as average. if 100/1200 is an "A" grade, then surely 60/800 is a "C", right?

Do you consider average as success? Some people do, it is a passing grade after all, but I can tell you as a parent of 2 school aged children, I am not pleased to see "C" grades, because I expect Better than Average performance. To continue the analogy, I expect better than average performance from a WR who is being paid like an elite. Do you disagree with any of that?

With a new offense etc., I am willing to trust the coaches if they have a level of comfort that would cause them to make a move. Again, Akh has always conditioned making a move with Santana with the caveat that the rookies look to be able to pick-up the slack.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Joe again, lets define Success. I would define an 800 yard season with 60 catches in todays NFL where 100/1200 is the Elite standard year in an year out, as average. if 100/1200 is an "A" grade, then surely 60/800 is a "C", right?

Do you consider average as success? Some people do, it is a passing grade after all, but I can tell you as a parent of 2 school aged children, I am not pleased to see "C" grades, because I expect Better than Average performance. To continue the analogy, I expect better than average performance from a WR who is being paid like an elite. Do you disagree with any of that?

With a new offense etc., I am willing to trust the coaches if they have a level of comfort that would cause them to make a move. Again, Akh has always conditioned making a move with Santana with the caveat that the rookies look to be able to pick-up the slack.
Furthermore, I think the coaches have already expressed their level of confidence in the current receiving unit by going out and grabbing 3 receivers (or 2 receivers and 1 TE) with their first 3 picks.

[firehawk157]

Furthermore, I think the coaches have already expressed their level of confidence in the current receiving unit by going out and grabbing 3 receivers (or 2 receivers and 1 TE) with their first 3 picks.
*cue Zoolander* Oh SNAP!

[skin4ever]

i think we, as fans, have to wait and see, there is a reason we drafted these guys, but they still have to compete for the job. The same reason, Cooley and other vets dont like the rookie pay scale, applies. Lets wait and see if our WR draft picks can play in the NFL, before we name them starters, pro bowlers, and any thing else. As for now, they are rookies who are slated to be 3 and 4 on the depth chart. Hopefully, they do out play our current starters(at some point in the future, but IMO, that will have to be how they play when the lights are on and the game counts) and the skins can decide from there, but i think this competition will spark some fire into Moss and ARE, they understand the business, maybe they wont have so many hammie problems.

As for Moss being overpaid, i dont know if thats his problem. The skins FO decided to backload his contract, and not compensate him when he set WR marks for the skins in 2005(i think).

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Even you have to agree that he has to do better(much better imo) even as a #2 WR for the salary he's getting. 60 catches for 800 yards might be "average" for a #2 WR, but he's getting paid like a top shelf WR. You can argue that the skins need 2 legit WRs, and I agree, but I don't think paying Moss 6 mil a year against the cap for something the skins can find a WR to do for 1.5-2.5 million a year is a smart move. TJ Houzmanzedah(one of the best #2 WRs in the NFL) got paid the same last season against the cap as Moss. Which would you rather have?

Of course I'd rather have TJ. I also said I'd be down with going after Bobby Engram if he gets cut. This isn't about thinking that Santana is the best receiver in the league.

As far as his salary goes, again, I've said that he's overpaid for his production the past two years. And, again, I'm not talking about money here. If we can somehow sign another receiver who has proven he can at least put up the numbers of an average #2 wide-out in the NFL before this season starts, I'd be fine with cutting Moss.

[akhhorus]

Of course I'd rather have TJ. I also said I'd be down with going after Bobby Engram if he gets cut. This isn't about thinking that Santana is the best receiver in the league.

As far as his salary goes, again, I've said that he's overpaid for his production the past two years. And, again, I'm not talking about money here. If we can somehow sign another receiver who has proven he can at least put up the numbers of an average #2 wide-out in the NFL before this season starts, I'd be fine with cutting Moss.

Thats a loaded standard you're holding this change up to. Moss can't deliver the stats for the money he's getting, yet in order for you to be satisfied, the skins would have to find a player who can bring in a new standard you're setting up. With the 2 rookies and Davis, the skins wouldn't have to bring in a guy who can get 1000 yards receiving. Even factoring that they're rookies, the skins would need relatively light production from them to make up for Moss, or to make up for "an average #2 WR's production."

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Joe again, lets define Success. I would define an 800 yard season with 60 catches in todays NFL where 100/1200 is the Elite standard year in an year out, as average. if 100/1200 is an "A" grade, then surely 60/800 is a "C", right?

Do you consider average as success? Some people do, it is a passing grade after all, but I can tell you as a parent of 2 school aged children, I am not pleased to see "C" grades, because I expect Better than Average performance. To continue the analogy, I expect better than average performance from a WR who is being paid like an elite. Do you disagree with any of that?

Again... my point is, and always has been, that after this draft, we'd better make sure that we don't fall right back into the receiver situation we've had for the past several years; in other words, we must, at bare minimum, make sure we have at least two starting receivers.

Moss, even in his "awful" years, has shown that he can be at least an average number two, something that we haven't had since Rod Gardner had a couple productive seasons. No, 60/800 isn't dominant. I never said it was. Hell, I've been talking in terms of a #2 receiver this whole time, not a #1. If Thomas and Kelly both turn into those proverbial "A" students, tubular. Fantastic. Send Moss packing. But until we know for sure what we have in them, I want to make sure that we don't focus the first day of our 2008 draft on receivers, only to wind up with the same exact problems we've had at that position for the past several years.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Thats a loaded standard you're holding this change up to. Moss can't deliver the stats for the money he's getting, yet in order for you to be satisfied, the skins would have to find a player who can bring in a new standard you're setting up. With the 2 rookies and Davis, the skins wouldn't have to bring in a guy who can get 1000 yards receiving. Even factoring that they're rookies, the skins would need relatively light production from them to make up for Moss, or to make up for "an average #2 WR's production."

What new standard? Where did I create a new standard?

[akhhorus]

Again... my point is, and always has been, that after this draft, we'd better make sure that we don't fall right back into the receiver situation we've had for the past several years; in other words, we must, at bare minimum, make sure we have at least two starting receivers.

Moss, even in his "awful" years, has shown that he can be at least an average number two, something that we haven't had since Rod Gardner had a couple productive seasons. No, 60/800 isn't dominant. I never said it was. Hell, I've been talking in terms of a #2 receiver this whole time, not a #1. If Thomas and Kelly both turn into those proverbial "A" students, tubular. Fantastic. Send Moss packing. But until we know for sure what we have in them, I want to make sure that we don't focus the first day of our 2008 draft on receivers, only to wind up with the same exact problems we've had at that position for the past several years.

Fine, then Moss should take a 50% pay cut to be in line with an "average" #2 WR.

What new standard? Where did I create a new standard?

You were saying not that long ago that Moss needed to do better than he was. Now you're saying that he's puts up "average #2 production", which I don't agree with and unless we can get someone who can do that, we have to keep him.

[akhhorus]

Furthermore, I think the coaches have already expressed their level of confidence in the current receiving unit by going out and grabbing 3 receivers (or 2 receivers and 1 TE) with their first 3 picks.

Imagine if we drafted Chad Henne at #34 and someone was trying to explain that Campbell shouldn't be threatened because we were "enhancing" the position lol.

[Keino]

Again... my point is, and always has been, that after this draft, we'd better make sure that we don't fall right back into the receiver situation we've had for the past several years; in other words, we must, at bare minimum, make sure we have at least two starting receivers.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this point which is why Akh's thoughts were qualified by "If the coaches think that Malcolm and Devin are ready" then we should trade Moss. I agree with that position frankly

Moss, even in his "awful" years, has shown that he can be at least an average number two, something that we haven't had since Rod Gardner had a couple productive seasons. No, 60/800 isn't dominant. I never said it was. Hell, I've been talking in terms of a #2 receiver this whole time, not a #1. If Thomas and Kelly both turn into those proverbial "A" students, tubular. Fantastic. Send Moss packing. But until we know for sure what we have in them, I want to make sure that we don't focus the first day of our 2008 draft on receivers, only to wind up with the same exact problems we've had at that position for the past several years.

A few problems here. We are paying Moss like a #1. With #1 pay comes #1 expectations. Secondly, 60/800 is what Sanatana has largely been. Those are his average years, not his awful years. He's only had 2 (out of 7) seasons where he exceeded that production.

[skin4ever]

A few problems here. We are paying Moss like a #1. With #1 pay comes #1 expectations. Secondly, 60/800 is what Sanatana has largely been. Those are his average years, not his awful years. He's only had 2 (out of 7) seasons where he exceeded that production.

While i agree that he has been largely average, I believe his contract(as most skins contracts) is back loaded. He got(assumption, havent checked) paid a lot less in 2005 when he broke wr recd than he is now and definitely in the end of his contract(his last year). I think we will be hearing alot more of your argument for other players b/c this is how the Skins FO does business. I cant blame him for being overpaid now, when he probably wasnt paid then. I couldnt blame him otherwise anyway, who wouldnt take more money to continue to be the same player you always have been. SKins FO is the problem with any (older) player on our team that isnt living up to their salary for that year because of the backloading of contracts year in year out.

PS- i still think he is the best WR we have, adn showed he can be the man in 2005, hopefully he is over the injury bug and the new blood pushes him back to where, i think, he can play.

[NamVet4]

Talk about a tangent and a stroll off the topic! :)

The issue is value vs. performance when we all discuss Santana Moss.
There is perceived value based on his salary . . . He is paid this and should produce thus!
Well, Boys and Girls, if you didn’t sleep during Warren Buffets lecture about root investments 101, you already know that past performance is no guarantee of future results. And, real value is measured by perceived return on the investment. Now add to that, alternative choices (Thanks to DannyVinny Snyderatto) with no measurable performance and we have a conundrum!
And to complicate the equation, there is the unknown “Z” factor (You can deduce that!)

So with all my rambling my point resolves itself to gut feeling. With no disrespect to the fine members who know their stats inside and out. History is cyclical and instructive. The NFL, as a whole is not an aberration of consequences. Good Teams historically are developed by the blend of youth and experience. Youth acquired requires experience to grow! Part of the growth is enabled by the benefit of others experience.

So, for all of this, even if Santana Moss has “average” numbers this year, my gut says he stays the season with the rookies. Short term vs. long term is merely hypothetical. What favors us all, and our Beloved Team, is that there is an increased chance of overall Team improvement which is measured by post season games played! This is further confirmed if, and a strong if, both the experienced player and the rookies push each others performance.
Just my 2 cents . . .

[skinfan43]

Nice write up bro... Moss said it sucks moose ballz however;)

[akhhorus]

Nice write up bro... Moss said it sucks moose ballz however;)

Yeah yeah lol. If Lavar and Ramsey's hired assassins couldn't dissuade me from criticizing a player, Moss can't either lol.

[shally]

Imagine if we drafted Chad Henne at #34 and someone was trying to explain that Campbell shouldn't be threatened because we were "enhancing" the position lol.

kind of like what painted-Ram-bird must have felt when campbell was drafted.. he knew it was over then no matter what Gibbs said

i think campbell knows that brennan is just a future backup, and collins is the present back up.. had they drafted josh johnson in the third round, for example, i think it would have sent an entire different message-- or henne as you say..

[Hr fan]

What is Moss worth? If we got Jason Taylor for him (Ginn isn't ready and isn't Parcells guy) I would be estatic. Even if we threw in a 5th.

[guess88]

What is Moss worth? If we got Jason Taylor for him (Ginn isn't ready and isn't Parcells guy) I would be estatic. Even if we threw in a 5th.

So you'd put the fate of our WR core on 1 serviceable veteran, an unproven 2nd year, 2 rookies, a punt returner, and an over the hill clutch catch special teamer?

I'd still like to keep Moss around for another year, and see how our new offense works out, if our rookies can produce at the NFL level, and hopefully if things work out, maybe move Moss or ARE back to the slot position that they thrived in.

[Hr fan]

So you'd put the fate of our WR core on 1 serviceable veteran, an unproven 2nd year, 2 rookies, a punt returner, and an over the hill clutch catch special teamer?

I'd still like to keep Moss around for another year, and see how our new offense works out, if our rookies can produce at the NFL level, and hopefully if things work out, maybe move Moss or ARE back to the slot position that they thrived in.

Jason Taylor is a pro bowl level player who would instantly improve our defense and mitigate against Rocky and Carlos being unavailable or operating at reduced efficiency. Moss was pro bowl level in 2005. He doesn't go over the middle often, a staple in the new O - he stretches the field. Campbell is more accurate short than long. Do I want both Taylor and Moss at the cost of the 2009 #1? No. Do I think Taylor will have a bigger impact on team success? Yes. The Moss of 2006 and 2007 are too fresh in my mind to make a hope of a return to the 2005 level likely. (BTW I agree that Moss and ARE are basically the same receiver in the new O in the slot, and while IMO Moss is superior to ARE it isn't enough to pass on Taylor. I just don't think Parcells is hankering for an even trade.)

[guess88]

Jason Taylor would be a nice addition for 1-2 years, but if our offense isn't producing, I doubt adding him is going to help much either. I don't even remember how many horrible 3rd quarters we had, or even just 2nd halfs we had until Campbell went down and Collins came in. (not a knock on Campbell, Collins just knew the system better)

I don't have the stats, but I recall our D playing much better at the end of the season, and I think a large part of that is attributed to actually getting a rest.

I do agree we need a solid DE threat, and I think our rookies wr's should turn out well, but I'm not ready to put my faith into rookies. Especially at a position where it's very rare for rookies to produce much until usually the 2nd half of the season, or even 2nd year.

[Hr fan]

I am not asking you to read my writings you can go to www.redskins.com and read the interview with Stan Hixon. I don't think you will like what they wrote their either. I think that interview explains my point of view better than I can ever write it since you dont understand my form of English.

And if you were considering trading him as an offical Redskins rep you would say "his injury history concerns me" and/or "he doesn't fit this O"? Would lower the value markedly and undermine Moss' confidence if no decent offer is received. Maybe, if a trade is contemplated, the fo wants to wait until the seeason starts and needs become clearer for other teams and injuries pile up.

[HanburgerBum]

Just returned from a week's trip and I am catching up on the Forum. Enjoyed your excellent analysis of the Skins draft.

I agree that Thomas and Kelly appear to be value picks, Davis seems to be a luxury pick, Rinehart and Tryon should contribute this year, at least one of Kareem and Horton should make the roster, Brooks looks like a good bet to replace Frost, and Brennan looks like a total waste.

Also agree that Kerry Brown and Shannon Boatman (and probably Andrew Crummey too) have decent shots to replace the very old Oline depth now on the roster.

As to your position about possibly trading Santana Moss and the heated debate with Battle Cat, Red Bear and Hrab in this regard, I think you guys may be closer than it appears on the surface.

It seems that you would only want to trade Moss if the new receivers look like they can handle the job from their TC showing and only if the Skins can get something decent in return. BC, RB and Hrab don't seem to be against trading Moss eventually once the new receivers prove themselves in regular season play. So, the difference appears to be no more than the timing (a few months) of any possible trade.

My take is that it would be extremely unlikely that any trade can be made involving Moss this year. He is what--around 29 now? Rebuilding teams like Miami should not be looking for a WR pushing 30. Further, Moss is coming off two unspectacular years production wise. If Redskins fans of this Forum realize that, how are other League front offices not going to be aware of this? So, his trade value should be low this offseason. Any offers for him are likely to be insulting and not worth the Redskins' consideration. To get a quality Dlineman for Santana at this point is more pipe dream than anything. Even for an old DE like Jason Taylor, it may take a pick in addition to Moss (and I don't want to use a future first day pick for a 34-year old DE).

So, Moss is basically worth more to the Skins than any other team. He remains our best receiver until proven otherwise. He remains capable of stretching the field. While he and Campbell have not been a devastating combination, it has not being all Moss's fault. I distinctly remember Jason overthrowing him in Philly when he was 10 yards behind the defense.

For better or worse, the Skins and Moss are stuck with each other. Perhaps the added competition (Thomas, Kelly) and more importantly being able to stay healthy will cause Santana to have a big season. Then, the Skins can trade him from strength, if they wish to at that point.