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View Full Version : Is Zorn Showing Too Much?


hail2skins
08-11-2008, 04:05 PM
So, with the new passing offense being installed, do you guys think Zorn is showing too much giving teams a lot of film to review to prepare for them? Or do you think he's keeping it simple and only running basic stuff he wants to use.

CarMike
08-11-2008, 04:08 PM
Pretty vanilla so for to me. Especially with Campbell not playing much so far.

redskin_rich
08-11-2008, 04:11 PM
I think getting the offense to execute flawlessly is more important than worrying about showing too much. We've seen the past few years an offense that clearly wasn't ready come opening day and that is far bigger a problem than showing opponents a few of your tendencies.

Keino
08-11-2008, 04:15 PM
I don't think he is showing too much, but on that last Devine Drive, I wish he would have run the ball on 4th down instead of Play-pass.....

Not that I think it's a bad call, but we have all season to run a Play pass in that situation, because no matter what, defenses have to sell out on the run. However, that was a great opportunity to see who "wants it more". From that perspective, I think he got a bit cute, but for the most part I think he is calling and having the offense run the most basic patterns and plays that are a staple of his offense.

akhhorus
08-11-2008, 04:18 PM
There's 3 base sets seattle ran that we haven't seen much of so far(4 wrs, 1 Rb/3 WRs, 2 TE and the brown pro set), so I think he's not running the full playbook at all. Other than that, it looks like Zorn is running Holmgren's playbook from the last couple years.

skinfanjon
08-11-2008, 04:30 PM
There's 3 base sets seattle ran that we haven't seen much of so far(4 wrs, 1 Rb/3 WRs, 2 TE and the brown pro set), so I think he's not running the full playbook at all. Other than that, it looks like Zorn is running Holmgren's playbook from the last couple years.

I thought we went 4 WR quite a bit on Saturday, I can remember at least six or seven snaps in that formation. I would like to see more 3 WR/ Singleback sets though, that may wind up being our most effective formation come the regular season. Portis doesn't need a lead blocker to be effective and it keeps Cooley on the field, that's maximizing our personnel in my opinion. It keeps the defense off balance and allows us to run or pass on any down.

Concerning Zorn, I don't think he's showing too much. He's called the second half of both games pretty close to the vest, mainly trying to get the game over with. I don't think we've seen anything real exotic with the first teamers, although the screen pass to Betts out of the split back formation may have been a glimpse into his playcalling creativity.

Keino
08-11-2008, 04:39 PM
Blache may be showing too much. Im not sure I would have shown flip flopping the DEs in this game, if at all during the pre-season.

SkinsfaninNJ
08-11-2008, 04:48 PM
Blache may be showing too much. Im not sure I would have shown flip flopping the DEs in this game, if at all during the pre-season.

Good call, and he is showing a lot of safety blitz. Offense on the other hand does not seem to be showing too much in my estimation, just real good execution.

nicefellow31
08-11-2008, 04:57 PM
I tend to agree with everyone else here. Practice it and make sure everyone is familiar with what is going on. I don't want to go back to the Saunders "the handcuffs are off" 700 page playbook where nobody looked like they knew what they were doing when the season started.

Battle Cat
08-11-2008, 05:15 PM
I think proper execution is the most important thing. I mean there are books on Zorn from Seattle and Blache from Chicago they are not total unknowns as far as basic scheme or what they like to do around the league. Plus we have all seen what Indy and New England like to do on offense and what Tenn, Jax and Baltimore like to do on defense and they still do ok.

shally
08-11-2008, 05:35 PM
nope

what IS apparent is how smooth the offense seems to be. almost NO penalties.

getting things down is what is most important right now. besides, if our o line functions as well as it looks, then few teams are going to stop us anyway.. and, we arent throwing a lot of passes to the tight end or running reverses.. the most unusual is the draws-- which are vanilla anyway.

lorimike
08-11-2008, 05:47 PM
I think getting the offense to execute flawlessly is more important than worrying about showing too much. We've seen the past few years an offense that clearly wasn't ready come opening day and that is far bigger a problem than showing opponents a few of your tendencies.


totally agree. For the first time in a long time our preseason is showing that we have some potential on offense. Its a refreshing change from the last several years

LadyNRedskinsfan
08-11-2008, 05:57 PM
I was just saying on Saturday, that it seems as if the offense hasn't shown much at all IMO. We've seen alot of the basic staples of the offense and what I do like is the lack of penalties, the efficiency and the organization so far.

flave1969
08-11-2008, 06:06 PM
As said by others here, I just think we have seen good execution so we are seeing drives sustained and therefore plays. Lets face it the past four preseasons have been pretty dire in terms of execution so we are getting spoilt for entertainment right now.

redskinz#1fan
08-11-2008, 06:17 PM
I don't think they have showed much at all....I know what they have shown is an offense that believes in what their coach is doing!

hail2skins
08-11-2008, 06:26 PM
Blache may be showing too much. Im not sure I would have shown flip flopping the DEs in this game, if at all during the pre-season.That's a good point. I did like seeing it but you're right, too early to unveil it.

Patrick
08-11-2008, 06:31 PM
Showing too much - not really.
I think for the next two weeks that a little more will be inserted for each game. Zorn has even said that he intend on play calling for situations. I think the last game will be real vanilla "safe" game.

tbfoster1
08-11-2008, 06:34 PM
Even if they were showing too much I personally wouldn't care. Like a couple of others have said, Vanilla gets you nowhere when the season starts. And as long as you can execute it won't matter what the other team knows.

shally
08-11-2008, 06:35 PM
That's a good point. I did like seeing it but you're right, too early to unveil it.

the nfl is such a copy cat league that since the giants had success with that type of formation (multiple DE's in different positions along the line) you can expect that EVERY team will incorporate it in their defensive schemes...

we are not showing anything that others wont do as well

akhhorus
08-11-2008, 06:35 PM
That's a good point. I did like seeing it but you're right, too early to unveil it.

Yeah, but if any OC or OLmen/coach wasn't expecting that one, he shouldn't be in the NFL.

Slobberknocker
08-11-2008, 06:45 PM
Yeah, but if any OC or OLmen/coach wasn't expecting that one, he shouldn't be in the NFL.

Plus, Taylor and Carter have to get used to playing that way. Add Erasmus James to the mix on passing downs, and suddenly we might have a darned good pass rush for change!

shally
08-11-2008, 06:47 PM
Plus, Taylor and Carter have to get used to playing that way. Add Erasmus James to the mix on passing downs, and suddenly we might have a darned good pass rush for change!

really exciting to contemplate.. dont forget golston as well.. for once we might have pressure consistently from the front 4..

hogskins
08-11-2008, 07:05 PM
I think getting the offense to execute flawlessly is more important than worrying about showing too much. We've seen the past few years an offense that clearly wasn't ready come opening day and that is far bigger a problem than showing opponents a few of your tendencies.

Excellent point. I'd rather "they" know something than us "knowing nothing" in week one of the regular season. Zorn looks smart, as far as I'm concerned.

hail2skins
08-11-2008, 07:10 PM
nope

what IS apparent is how smooth the offense seems to be. almost NO penalties.

getting things down is what is most important right now. besides, if our o line functions as well as it looks, then few teams are going to stop us anyway.. and, we arent throwing a lot of passes to the tight end or running reverses.. the most unusual is the draws-- which are vanilla anyway.
The thing that is surprising with this is that it's coming from all players, not just the first string. I guess the coaches are really teaching and doing their jobs.

tbfoster1
08-11-2008, 07:33 PM
The only thing Zorn is showing is that he is totally awesome. I love the guy.... (so far) ;)

LATrueRedskin
08-11-2008, 07:49 PM
I don't think he's showing too much. He has to see what he has against an opposing team, so he may be showing more than usual coaches. But I can already tell Zorn is not your usual coach.

Keino
08-11-2008, 07:52 PM
Yeah, but if any OC or OLmen/coach wasn't expecting that one, he shouldn't be in the NFL.

Expecting it is one thing. Preparing for it because you know it is coming is a whole different matter. I personally wouldn't have shown it this early. I would let them continue to practice it, take reps but I would have held off on that, personally.

I agree we aren't showing anything that is unexpected, but there is expecting a possibility and expecting a reality, wherein each takes one takes on differing levels of preparation.

jaylen
08-11-2008, 07:59 PM
Considering we haven't seen Cooley or the deep ball I think we're being terribly vanilla. The extra 2 a days are paying off bigtime, 16 this year to 5 last season really shows in our execution and organization

Blache flipping the DE's I think gives OC's more to gameplan for so I'm okay with it.

skinsfaninva
08-11-2008, 08:00 PM
I don't think that we are showing too much. I prefer to practice the plays (offense and defense) in live action. I think that under the Gibbs regime, that the limited plays in preseason hampered the team in the regular season. In the 2 playoff seasons, it took until the last 5 or 6 games of the season to get clicking and make the playoffs. Hopefully, we get going from game 1.

redwolf1218
08-11-2008, 08:00 PM
i dont believe in "showing too much". my dad's theory is, show all kinds of crazy stuff so you can practice it and work on it in the game, and it will make other teams prepare for it, even though you might not use it all that often.

silverspring
08-11-2008, 08:38 PM
I think getting the offense to execute flawlessly is more important than worrying about showing too much. We've seen the past few years an offense that clearly wasn't ready come opening day and that is far bigger a problem than showing opponents a few of your tendencies.

I couldn't agree more.

When gibbs implemented his offense and then the saunders/gibbs offense they showed nothing and it resulted in the offense looking sloppy and unable to smoothly execute plays when regular season started.

Dolla Bill
08-11-2008, 09:03 PM
I think the biggest difference has been execution in just the basic things. Last year I really didn't see the sense of urgency and response to how Zorn has things now. He seems to have a good grasp of this team, and they're responding well.

Red Bear
08-11-2008, 09:13 PM
i dont think zorn is showing too much at all. and lets remember, zorn must get as used to calling plays during a game as the players have to get used to running them in game situations.

i dont think the defense is showing too much either. so what we ran a few safety blitzes, its not a new concept and lots of teams do it, its the opposing offenses job to be prepared for it. also flip flopping DEs isnt a big deal either, now is the time to see how it works, get the experimenting done in preseason and see what works well and doesnt work well before it counts. and once again its the offenses job to try and prepare for whatever our defense may throw at them. id rather practice it now in games(as opposed to the 2nd string offense in practice). if we dont flip flop the ends in game reps now, teams will eventually see it in the regular season anyways, perhaps as early as week 1

dj_stouty
08-12-2008, 07:57 AM
As I mentioned in the Screen/Draw thread, I think Zorn will use these plays sparingly, but he is calling them frequently in the preseason to get the team familiary with running them.

I agree with Akh's first post. There are a lot of formations we haven't seen yet...

SkinsKY
08-12-2008, 08:21 AM
As I mentioned in the Screen/Draw thread, I think Zorn will use these plays sparingly, but he is calling them frequently in the preseason to get the team familiary with running them.

I agree with Akh's first post. There are a lot of formations we haven't seen yet...


I agree that there is more than what we've seen, but I also I don't believe it matters all that much what Zorn runs in the pre-season. The power of playcalling is not calling plays that the other team doesn't expect, but it's calling plays when they don't expect them.

Gibbs ran into trouble (pre-saunders) because his plays, and particularly his run plays, were diagnosable before the snap. I could call the defense from the couch against him, so I believed Roy Williams when he said they could.

The West Coast Offense isn't new. Most of it's catalogue is being run already in the league. Unlike Steve Sputterer, who brought a largely different offense to the league, people know what the WCO does. The playbook is not Saunders, but I have no doubt it has 200+ plays in it. That's more than enough to dismantle any defense. The bigger question is if Zorn is showing too much of tendencies to call certain plays and not necessarily the plays themselves.

BraveHeartFan
08-12-2008, 09:52 AM
So, with the new passing offense being installed, do you guys think Zorn is showing too much giving teams a lot of film to review to prepare for them? Or do you think he's keeping it simple and only running basic stuff he wants to use.

Nah. I don't think he's shown them anything too special yet. Basic stuff that they're running very, very, well.

Redskinmayhem
08-12-2008, 11:21 AM
I think this "not showing too much notion" is more of a ploy to disguise guys who can't hack it. some guys know the play book better than others however they want to evaluate everyone on a level playing field.

Hr fan
08-12-2008, 11:27 AM
There's 3 base sets seattle ran that we haven't seen much of so far(4 wrs, 1 Rb/3 WRs, 2 TE and the brown pro set), so I think he's not running the full playbook at all. Other than that, it looks like Zorn is running Holmgren's playbook from the last couple years.

Agree. It isn't as if the players have absorbed the full intricacies of the WCO. What we are seeing IMO is superior continuity on the portion of the playbook being run. Besides, as a Holmgren disciple, it isn't as if the playbook is sercret. Plenty of tape to study. The key is execution and consistency, and Zorn is way ahead on these scores than I expected.

smoak
08-12-2008, 11:30 AM
I think getting the offense to execute flawlessly is more important than worrying about showing too much. We've seen the past few years an offense that clearly wasn't ready come opening day and that is far bigger a problem than showing opponents a few of your tendencies.

I agree. Plus I haven't seen anything too intricate? We've been running basic patterns from what I've seen...

Hr fan
08-12-2008, 11:31 AM
Even if they were showing too much I personally wouldn't care. Like a couple of others have said, Vanilla gets you nowhere when the season starts. And as long as you can execute it won't matter what the other team knows.

Agree. Was anything more vanilla or understood by the D than the Riggo drill? Execution is the key.

Ibleedburgundy
08-12-2008, 12:10 PM
Whatever Zorn showed, IMO, is offset by the value of getting some good reps in a game type situation and building confidence. We have a young QB so this is important.

After the last few years I'm inclined to not wory about it so much.