Moss to return punts?

[hockeygoalie29]

Per LaCanfora: (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/08/carlos_could_play_saturday_roc.html#more)

Punt Returning
I also asked Zorn who is going to return punts in the regular season, and obviously you don't expose guys like Antwaan Randle El and Santana Moss to that duty in preseason, where a guy can get maimed. I thought Randle El had a very poor year returning punts in 2007, but Zorn said that ARE and Moss will handle the bulk of the duties going into the season, with James Thrash in the mix as well.

So our 2 starting WR's will also be our 2 return men? Santana could make a big difference in the return game but I'm not so sure I like subjecting both Randel El and Moss to potential injury. Especially considering the 2 of them were hardly on the field together last season anyway. I'd like to see how Thomas handles returns since he is probably heading into the season #4 on the depth chart at receiver.

[Hr fan]

Given his injury history no chance, or at best used like Darrell was.

[smoak]

MISTAKE! Say it is just a smoke screen.

[LATrueRedskin]

I'd definately use Moss in a "Darrell Green" situation. You knew it was a huge play in a huge game when Darrell was back there. Could be the same for Moss. Although Green never had the injury problems Moes does.

[colkurtz]

Why risk it? Thrash is fine or Cartwright even better [if he makes the team this season].

We need Moss and ARe to be healthy until we see how the rookie WR are going to do. I just don't believe I'll see Santana take this role.

[GreenspanDan]

man you guys are pansies. these guys are football players. put your most talented guy back there. at the HoF, gibbs said his biggest mistake was not using green more often on punts.

a punt return is an opportunity to score. maximize it by placing your best guy out there.

i don't see punt returners getting hurt very often at all. hell, darrell pulling a muscle leaping over a bears defender is actually the only time i can remember a punt returner getting hurt. moss could get hurt on ANY arbitrary play.

the smart move is to maximize the number of times per game the ball is in his (or randle el's) hands.

[shally]

Why risk it? Thrash is fine or Cartwright even better [if he makes the team this season].

We need Moss and ARe to be healthy until we see how the rookie WR are going to do. I just don't believe I'll see Santana take this role.

i dont think rock is a punt returner..

think it will end up being thrash eventually. good hands. runs right up the field. we could do worse, but he is not going to be ever confused with hester or cribbs

[shally]

man you guys are pansies. these guys are football players. put your most talented guy back there. at the HoF, gibbs said his biggest mistake was not using green more often on punts.

a punt return is an opportunity to score. maximize it by placing your best guy out there.

i don't see punt returners getting hurt very often at all. hell, darrell pulling a muscle leaping over a bears defender is actually the only time i can remember a punt returner getting hurt. moss could get hurt on ANY arbitrary play.

the smart move is to maximize the number of times per game the ball is in his (or randle el's) hands.


i disagree. on passes moss usually has to deal with a corner or safety.. even on crossing patterns it is not like having 10 guys converging on him at a full gallop

[colkurtz]

i dont think rock is a punt returner..

think it will end up being thrash eventually. good hands. runs right up the field. we could do worse, but he is not going to be ever confused with hester or cribbs

You're right. Thrash gives you steady but nothing spectacular. We need Moss to come back to his 2005 WR form until the rookies get their grove, not risk an injury to him from some ST monster who's got nothing to lose.

[Redskin-4-life]

I like the idea, good special teams play wins games, and if this team is to go to another level, we will need good to great returners. I think Rock and Thrash are consistent in that they don't turn the ball over, but they don't scare anyone.

[jaylen]

Recipe for disaster if you ask me. Having your number 1 wr exposed in a Kamikazee situation isn't a good look. Unless you're sure that the rookie wideouts can carry the load once Moss goes down.Keep ARE back there.

[hail2skins]

man you guys are pansies. these guys are football players. put your most talented guy back there. at the HoF, gibbs said his biggest mistake was not using green more often on punts.

a punt return is an opportunity to score. maximize it by placing your best guy out there.

i don't see punt returners getting hurt very often at all. hell, darrell pulling a muscle leaping over a bears defender is actually the only time i can remember a punt returner getting hurt. moss could get hurt on ANY arbitrary play.

the smart move is to maximize the number of times per game the ball is in his (or randle el's) hands.
A lot teams find players who specialize at returning punts and don't use their starting wide receivers. It's one thing to have a corner or safety on you but on special teams, you have a different mentality to deal with.

[SellerDoor45]

Goodbye Rock, hello Marcus.

[JsMaViSd]

Rock isnt going anywhere, especially with the way Mason muffed that opening kickoff

[akhhorus]

The subtitle of this article should be:

"Thomas and Kelly to get more playing time at WR eventually than either Moss or ARE."

[dj_stouty]

Moss and ARE are both overpaid WRs for their offensive output, so we might as well get them touching the ball on returns.

[redskin_rich]

Moss and ARE are both overpaid WRs for their offensive output, so we might as well get them touching the ball on returns.
Agreed and neither is good enough to "protect" from special teams duties. Unfortunately, ARE isn't that great of a punt returner either.

[Battle Cat]

I don't think we should risk one of our top receivers on punt returns especially until we figure out what we have in the rookies. 2 rookies who the coach says came into camp out of shape. These rookies have to learn what it takes to be in the NFL first before we start betting the franchise on them. I never played professional sports but to come into camp out of shape thinking you are going to beat out veterans like ARE Santana Moss and James Thrash for playing time tells me these rookies still have a little to learn. So save Moss and ARE for cathcing passes until we see these guys in action.

[GreenspanDan]

anyone got any evidence that returning punts puts you at risk of injury?

maybe i'm wrong, but i just don't remember ever seeing anyone injured on a punt return.

[silverspring]

We specifically got ARE to return punts, so i have no qualms at all about him doing that, unfortunately he hasn't proved to be very good at it.

Moss is always an injury waiting to happen so it may not be a good idea, but if he can be a home run threat then you don't want to leave that on the table. It would be one thing if we were very thin at WR but frankly i believe all our receivers are going to be fighting for more touches especially when you throw our three capable TEs into the mix and the fact that zorn likes to dump it to our backs as well.

[warpaint]

with all the receivers we have now maybe zorn isnt overly concerned about one of the starting receivers getting hurt ,its not like it was last year when a receiver got hurt and we had to start scanning the waiver wire,looks like there are a couple of receivers that if they dont make our team could be good enough to be picked up by other teams.

[dj_stouty]

As a Steeler, ARE was a decent punt returner...but the past 2 seasons, he has really tried too hard to be the next Hester/Hall. Every moment he hesitates back there, a gunner or special teamer gets down the field ready to make the easy tackle.

[akhhorus]

anyone got any evidence that returning punts puts you at risk of injury?

maybe i'm wrong, but i just don't remember ever seeing anyone injured on a punt return.

Besides Darrell Green breaking 2 ribs during that famous return against Chicago and missing the next playoff game I believe obviously.....

[redwolf1218]

if it was me, i'd go for the block every time, so i'd put the most dangerous return man back there (Moss) and tell him to call a fair catch. if the punter is scared to punt it to him, trying to angle it out of bounds, plus scared of getting it blocked from the rush, he might make a mistake (shank it, drop the snap, or whatever). Va Tech does it all the time.

[redskin_rich]

Besides Darrell Green breaking 2 ribs during that famous return against Chicago and missing the next playoff game I believe obviously.....

Not a punt return but on a pre-season kickoff return, remember Jason Sehorn getting his knee hyperextended, ending his season and he was never the same.

[GreenspanDan]

so there's only one example of a guy getting injured returning a punt that people can think of, and it happened 20 years ago.

hell yeah i'll take those odds, if it gives a guy like moss several more chances per game to do something with the ball in the open field.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

I truly hope thats not the case; its not like Santana hasn't been fragile enough. Thrash isn't quick enough to be a PR. This could be the opening Marcus Mason needs to make the active squad, if he can hold on to the ball, lol.

[akhhorus]

so there's only one example of a guy getting injured returning a punt that people can think of, and it happened 20 years ago.

hell yeah i'll take those odds, if it gives a guy like moss several more chances per game to do something with the ball in the open field.

Are you kidding me? Just doing a simple google search has, just from last year, Charles Woodsen getting hurt on a punt return and Ted Ginn getting hurt on a kick return. Please tell me you don't honestly think that the punt returners don't get hurt?

[GreenspanDan]

okay, so the count is up to two punt returners injured in twenty years. still sounds like a solid bet that moss' legs aren't going to spontaneously fall off if he returns some punts.

[akhhorus]

okay, so the count is up to two punt returners injured in twenty years. still sounds like a solid bet that moss' legs aren't going to spontaneously fall off if he returns some punts.

No, the list is much longer. Your logic is just baffling. Do you honestly think that only 2 punt returners have been hurt in 20 years on returns?

[LATrueRedskin]

okay, so the count is up to two punt returners injured in twenty years. still sounds like a solid bet that moss' legs aren't going to spontaneously fall off if he returns some punts.

While I think we should try and use Moss during possible game-breaking situations, I can't agree with your reasoning. I'm positive more then 2 punters have gotten injured in 20 years, that's just absurd. And while you may be exagerating a bit, there is a significant chance that punt returners can get injured. They are back there by themselves with the opposing team thundering down the field towards them at full speed.

[GreenspanDan]

i question the conventional wisdom that returning punts is risky.

out of 32 teams and who knows how many returners, how many were injured last year while returning a punt?

[akhhorus]

List of punt/kick returners hurt recently(2-3 years):
Michael Lewis(knee)
Eddie Drummond(multiple knee injuries on returns)
Mark Jones(knee injury on returns)
Allen Rossum(multiple knee injuries)
Andre Davis(ankle)
Joey Galloway(knee)
Dante Hall(ankle on a return)
Woodsen
Ginn

And I'm about 1000% sure that this list isn't all of them, and is only fairly significant injuries.

[Moe]

Are you kidding me? Just doing a simple google search has, just from last year, Charles Woodsen getting hurt on a punt return and Ted Ginn getting hurt on a kick return. Please tell me you don't honestly think that the punt returners don't get hurt?

To be fair, Charles Woodson is brittle enough to get hurt going to bed and Ginn entered last year with a gimpy foot. That's not to say that returners don't take shots but I don't recall it being a position where guys are routinely getting mangled.

IMO, kickoffs are a different animal entirely when it come to collisions and I wouldn't open up a starting WR or RB to that type of potential mayhem.

[GreenspanDan]

well okay, ted ginn did indeed hurt himself on a return in 2007 ... but it was a kickoff return ... in college ... during the post-play celebration. generously, i'm not sure that counts.

i started trying to verify that list through google, but gave up. kept finding instances of those dudes getting hurt playing offense or defense or on kickoff returns. not saying the list is bogus, just that i'm too lazy to do the work.

so maybe i'm wrong, maybe a bunch of dudes did get hurt returning punts last year, but i'm not entirely convinced.

for what it's worth, i do think kickoffs are different than punts.

[akhhorus]

well okay, ted ginn did indeed hurt himself on a return in 2007 ... but it was a kickoff return ... in college ... during the post-play celebration. generously, i'm not sure that counts.

i started trying to verify that list through google, but gave up. kept finding instances of those dudes getting hurt playing offense or defense or on kickoff returns.

so maybe i'm wrong, maybe a bunch of dudes did get hurt returning punts last year.

for what it's worth, i do think kickoffs are different than punts.

It doesn't matter either way, when any player is the target of the defense to tackle, they will get hurt and have a high potential of getting even minor injuries, no matter how you want to characterize it. I don't know why this concept is so hard for you to understand.

[GreenspanDan]

when any player is the target of the defense to tackle, they will get hurt and have a high potential of getting even minor injuries, no matter how you want to characterize it. I don't know why this concept is so hard for you to understand.

well sure, football is a rough game. moss could get injured being tackled any time he touches the ball. should we throw to him less often, because he's too valuable to risk getting injured making a simple 8 yard play?

in my opinion, the risk is overblown and is outweighed by the potential reward. getting moss the ball in the open field is worth the risk of him injuring himself getting tackled.

[akhhorus]

well sure, football is a rough game. moss could get injured being tackled any time he touches the ball. should we throw to him less often, because he's too valuable to risk getting injured making a simple 8 yard play?

in my opinion, the risk is overblown and is outweighed by the potential reward. getting moss the ball in the open field is worth the risk of him injuring himself getting tackled.

Getting him in the open field with 4-5 guys to beat is one thing, putting him in the open field with 11 guys in front of him doesn't seem like a good idea.

[warpaint]

okay, so the count is up to two punt returners injured in twenty years. still sounds like a solid bet that moss' legs aren't going to spontaneously fall off if he returns some punts.

heck we cant get thru practice (practice, practice) talking about practice here with out half the team being hurt one way or the other, with our trainers,
kiss of death to have any player making the big bucks returning punts, just my humble opinion.

[Battle Cat]

Kind of wish we could have took a flyer maybe 7th round on a speedy guy that may have been a running qb in college or a guy from a small college fast but to short to be a nfl receiver type of guy to return kick offs and punts for us.

[greatest2]

what about tryon, didn't he return kicks or punts or something.

I would like to see him in preseason trying to do it. see if he can hold onto the ball and what he does. if he can hold on to the ball, he can't be worse then EL. He will be our 4th corner, so injury isn't a huge issue. Moss can be the D. Green for us, returning when absolutely needed.

[colkurtz]

There are special skills required for being a PR specialist. Just because you are fast or have good hands doesn't make you even a good PR. It's having that vision to find the hole as jacked up ST crazies are running you down like you stole their last dollar.

I just can't see the risk / reward basis for sending out your #1 (and very small) WR on PR duty when he's been injured two of the last three years. I am NOT a huge Santana fan, by any means, but we need him to help get this WCO off the ground. Right now he's the main offensive receiving threat until Kelly / Thomas make the grade to NFL caliber play - if they ever get there.

[GreenspanDan]

There are special skills required for being a PR specialist. Just because you are fast or have good hands doesn't make you even a good PR. It's having that vision to find the hole as jacked up ST crazies are running you down like you stole their last dollar.

moss and randle el have both returned punts their whole careers, and had alot of success at it!


what about tryon, didn't he return kicks or punts or something.

I would like to see him in preseason trying to do it. see if he can hold onto the ball and what he does. if he can hold on to the ball, he can't be worse then EL. He will be our 4th corner, so injury isn't a huge issue. Moss can be the D. Green for us, returning when absolutely needed.

we already tried that, and he fumbled it.

[colkurtz]

moss and randle el have both returned punts their whole careers, and had alot of success at it!



we already tried that, and he fumbled it.

Sure they have - when they were younger. But playing Special Teams takes a certain amount of 'throwing caution to the wind'. As players get older they lose that ability to go for it or become more tentative. Only a rare player like Brian Mitchell could keep up his return average.

How about McMullen, Mix (hurt) or even give Mason another shot at it?. It's the guys on the edge that may have that urge to go for broke. That's what PS is all about.

[hogskins]

As a Steeler, ARE was a decent punt returner...but the past 2 seasons, he has really tried too hard to be the next Hester/Hall. Every moment he hesitates back there, a gunner or special teamer gets down the field ready to make the easy tackle.

It could be the Hester-syndrome as you mention. But I also believe that his blocking has sucked on punt returns, particularly last year. If we want a quick-step up-the-gut guy on returns, I don't think that ARE is our man. Interestingly, his initial dancing makes him a better than average YAC guy in the passing game...

[Dolla Bill]

I don't care who it is, as long as 1) they don't fumble and 2) they don't take 10 seconds for just a 3 yard return.

[greatest2]

moss and randle el have both returned punts their whole careers, and had alot of success at it!



we already tried that, and he fumbled it.

everybody fumbles sometime or another. im not ready to throw in the towel on him.

i like to see him return 10 punts and jus see how he does. 1 fumble, but solid returns on the others. you might be able to just chalk it up to being unlucky/careless the first time.

i don't know, but i would like him to get a decent shot cause if he is effective it makes everything alot easier.

[GreenspanDan]

everybody fumbles sometime or another. im not ready to throw in the towel on him.

well ok, but so far he's fumbled 100% of the punts he's handled as a redskin.


i know i'm in the minority here, but i believe there is nobody on earth who could have made positive yardage out of the opportunities given by our punt blocking last year. yeah, randle el was dancing left and right, because there were 4 guys in his face every time he caught the ball. i just don't think his low return average was his fault. he was trying to make something out of absolutely nothing, and never quite pulled it out.

i like him, though. i think if you give him a little crease, he can do something with it. moss too, obviously.

thrash? he is reliable. he will catch the ball and get tackled, and not fumble it, and fair catch it when appropriate.

[skinfanjon]

Besides Darrell Green breaking 2 ribs during that famous return against Chicago and missing the next playoff game I believe obviously.....

He didn't break ribs, it was torn cartilidge. It occurred not from contact, but while leaping over the defender and changing direction midair. I have no idea where to link this to, but I've heard it from his mouth.

Not that it has anything to do with Moss getting killed on teams which is bound to happen.

[PHIL32]

i am all for santana moss returning punts.randle-el was horrible last year and we need that threat.we especially need to get off to a fast start due to our schedule with other nfc east teams being away from home.coach danny
smith will know how to protect santana.we cannot worry about the injury
threat which can happen to anyone.we need a threat on punt returns.





:dalassuk::dance:

[HanburgerBum]

well ok, but so far he's fumbled 100% of the punts he's handled as a redskin.


i know i'm in the minority here, but i believe there is nobody on earth who could have made positive yardage out of the opportunities given by our punt blocking last year. yeah, randle el was dancing left and right, because there were 4 guys in his face every time he caught the ball. i just don't think his low return average was his fault. he was trying to make something out of absolutely nothing, and never quite pulled it out.

i like him, though. i think if you give him a little crease, he can do something with it. moss too, obviously.

thrash? he is reliable. he will catch the ball and get tackled, and not fumble it, and fair catch it when appropriate.


I think you are right that the poor punt returning in 2007 was more due to a lack of blocking rather than ARE. But, that's why it's puzzling why you would want Santana returning punts this season.

Unless the blocking improves, it is unlikely Moss or anyone else will be productive returning punts. So, why on earth would you want to expose our No. 1 WR to that hazardous duty with no likelihood of improvement in results? And, if the blocking improves, ARE will be fine returning punts. Either way, there is just no reason to put Santana back there on a regular basis.

Incidentally, I think you are wrong if you don't think returning punts is risky as far as injury is concerned. As AKH showed you, plenty of returners get hurt. And, the argument kickoff returns are not the same as punt returns don't hold any water. If anything, punt returns are even more dangerous than kickoff returns because a kickoff returner is not exposed as a punt returner would be when catching the ball.

Further, few returns result in TDs or big gains compared to the number of returns. So, the gain does NOT justify the risks. What you want in a punt returner is someone with sure hands (no more than one muff a season) and good judgment (don't handle punts inside the 10 yd line). Everything else is gravy.

Hester is great returning punts, but someone should keep track of the number of times he puts the ball on the ground while doing it. I know I would have my heart in my throat every time Hester settles under a punt if I were a Bear fan.

[smoak]

Not a punt return but on a pre-season kickoff return, remember Jason Sehorn getting his knee hyperextended, ending his season and he was never the same.

Yeah, I saw the statistics, and you are FAR more likely to be hurt on "teams" than a normal O/D... But that isn't necessarily the return guys.

[GreenspanDan]

you guys have an extemely exagerated notion of how dangerous it is to return punts. on this we simply disagree. we pay moss to play football. and he's returned punts all his danged career! it's not exotic. we're not asking him to defuse landmines.

but hamburgerbum complaining about devin hester's return skills. that is just baffling. he's the best returner to ever play the game. if when hester goes back to return all you can do is worry about the RISK than you are far too conservative to make reasonable football decisions.

[GreenspanDan]

As AKH showed you, plenty of returners get hurt. And, the argument kickoff returns are not the same as punt returns don't hold any water. If anything, punt returns are even more dangerous than kickoff returns because a kickoff returner is not exposed as a punt returner would be when catching the ball.

and yet when we looked we found far more kick returners getting injured than punt returners. i'm still not sure we found more than one or two punt returners getting injured returning punts in the last few years, which seems a better rate of injury than most other positions.

[redskin_rich]

you guys have an extemely exagerated notion of how dangerous it is to return punts. on this we simply disagree. we pay moss to play football. and he's returned punts all his danged career! it's not exotic. we're not asking him to defuse landmines.

but hamburgerbum complaining about devin hester's return skills. that is just baffling. he's the best returner to ever play the game. if when hester goes back to return all you can do is worry about the RISK than you are far too conservative to make reasonable football decisions.
I think it is dangerous enough that you don't risk a vital player on returns except for in some instances but I don't think Santana or ARE are elite enough players to be exempted.

And I don't know what in the House of Hades, Hanburger is talking about.

[Moe]

Moss has the speed and quickness that is taylor made for returning punts and he's been productive doing that earlier in his career with the Jets. I agree that his real value lies at WR but in critical situations, why not give him a chance? The Panthers have used Steve Smith as a punt returner with good success in years past, in fact I think he scored a pivotal td in the playoffs against Chicago a few years back. They haven't used him in that capacity much in the last few seasons, but they might have the worst special teams in the league and considering his overwhelming importance to that offense, it's not surprising.

[IMALILTEAPOT]

randle el should be our punt returner, that's why were paying him so much money, so he could be a reciever and a returner. i wouldnt mind moss doing some returns, just to keep the opposing team on their toes. i think the whole injury factor isnt that big of a deal. i wouldnt want moss to be out there ALL the time, but like, one return a game wont hurt. if he gets injured, then i guess thats just what happens to football players.

[Keino]

I can only imagine Moss there in special circumstances. When he entered the league, one of his attributes was being a dangerous return-man. I am not so sure that is the case anymore given that he hasn't done much of it in the past 3 -4 years.

I completely disagree with the view that our Return Blocking was poor. That sort of flies in the face of reason when you consider our K return blocking was spectacular. Punt returns require a quick decision on the returner's part and North-South running. This is why Mitchell was so successful at it and why Hester is the Best right now. No, our Punt Returner last year did too much dancing and not enough running.

[GreenspanDan]

keino, you've got a point. mitchell was GREAT and all he ever did was run straight forward.

[Keino]

keino, you've got a point. mitchell was GREAT and all he ever did was run straight forward.

And if you knew how much I cannot stand Mitchell, you would know how difficult it was for me to write that.

[HanburgerBum]

you guys have an extemely exagerated notion of how dangerous it is to return punts. on this we simply disagree. we pay moss to play football. and he's returned punts all his danged career! it's not exotic. we're not asking him to defuse landmines.

but hamburgerbum complaining about devin hester's return skills. that is just baffling. he's the best returner to ever play the game. if when hester goes back to return all you can do is worry about the RISK than you are far too conservative to make reasonable football decisions.


Some starting QBs are good athletes and probably could excel as returners. So, they should return punts because after all they are "football players"?

As to Hester, no question he is an outstanding returner (maybe the best ever). But, from the times I have seen him, he is not sure-handed. He puts the ball on the ground (either muffing the reception or fumbling during the run) way too much to suit me.

If I am the Bears special teams coach, it would be a tough decision whether Hester should be returning all kicks. If I am protecting a small lead late in a game, I would have to give serious consideration to putting someone back there with glue fingers instead of Hester.

[skin4ever]

man you guys are pansies. these guys are football players. put your most talented guy back there. at the HoF, gibbs said his biggest mistake was not using green more often on punts.

a punt return is an opportunity to score. maximize it by placing your best guy out there.
i don't see punt returners getting hurt very often at all. hell, darrell pulling a muscle leaping over a bears defender is actually the only time i can remember a punt returner getting hurt. moss could get hurt on ANY arbitrary play.

the smart move is to maximize the number of times per game the ball is in his (or randle el's) hands.

I guess, you would have supported Mike Vick(before his demise) to take PR and KR for the falcons, everytime. He was by far the greatest athlete on that team and most others for that matter, and had vision and could move with the ball. Granted i always thought they should have used him when they needed a score or great field position to win a playoff game or something of that magnitude.

[skin4ever]

Some starting QBs are good athletes and probably could excel as returners. So, they should return punts because after all they are "football players"?



you beat me to it.

[HanburgerBum]

I can only imagine Moss there in special circumstances. When he entered the league, one of his attributes was being a dangerous return-man. I am not so sure that is the case anymore given that he hasn't done much of it in the past 3 -4 years.

I completely disagree with the view that our Return Blocking was poor. That sort of flies in the face of reason when you consider our K return blocking was spectacular. Punt returns require a quick decision on the returner's part and North-South running. This is why Mitchell was so successful at it and why Hester is the Best right now. No, our Punt Returner last year did too much dancing and not enough running.


I guess we are seeing different things. It seemed to me that most times when ARE received a punt, there were 2-3 tacklers in his face. I did not see any "spectacular" blocking on punt returns.

True, our kickoff return blocking was much better, and I am at a loss as to the difference between that and punt return blocking. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that a kickoff returner has space to buildup a head of steam and the holes don't have to be as dramatic for the returner to get thru whereas a punt returner usually has very little space to operate from and mediocre blocking is more evident.

ARE was a very good punt returner when he left Pittsburgh. Why did he suddenly lose his return ability when he is still in his 20's and appears to be the same WR he was with his former team?

[Keino]

Because ARE was promised and received an increased role as a WR. He also got paid and in my opinion lost some of his hunger and love for being a Punt Returner. He focused on being a Starting WR, something he wasn't in Pittsburgh.

Punt returners typically don't have much room to maneuver which increases the need to pick a spot and run North and South. ARE would make a player miss and instead of taking off, attempt to make everyone miss. That is simply not a recipe for return success.

[GreenspanDan]

If I am the Bears special teams coach, it would be a tough decision whether Hester should be returning all kicks.

if i am the bears owner, i am firing you for even thinking about benching hester on kick returns!

[GreenspanDan]

I guess, you would have supported Mike Vick(before his demise) to take PR and KR for the falcons, everytime. He was by far the greatest athlete on that team and most others for that matter, and had vision and could move with the ball. Granted i always thought they should have used him when they needed a score or great field position to win a playoff game or something of that magnitude.

sure, why not? he has just as much chance of getting hurt there as dancing around d-linemen in his own backfield.

[HanburgerBum]

if i am the bears owner, i am firing you for even thinking about benching hester on kick returns!


If you are the owner of the Bears, that would probably explain their sudden fall into the cesspool from the SB team of just two years ago.

If Chicago has a less than a TD lead late in the game, I think it is a legitimate issue whether Hester should be returning any punt at that point.

[HanburgerBum]

you beat me to it.


Must be great minds think alike, lol.

[Keino]

If you are the owner of the Bears, that would probably explain their sudden fall into the cesspool from the SB team of just two years ago.

If Chicago has a less than a TD lead late in the game, I think it is a legitimate issue whether Hester should be returning any punt at that point.

W-W-W-What????

[HAWGZHEAD]

I wouldn't want Moss back there returning kicks eventhough he is a juker. With those moves he has after the catch he may well be a good return man but when he makes those catches there usually aren't guys drawing a bead on him at full speed. Let it stay El eventhough I am not really impressed with his returns since he has been here. There may be another answer to the return game but I hope it isn't Moss.

[redskinzluva]

Does this spell trouble for Rock? I like Rock..but maybe this is a move to make room for Mason..Just a thought..

OH my fault. He just returns kick-offs. Question. Devin Hester does both right? or no?

[redskin_rich]

W-W-W-What????
Yeah, pretty much... I don't think HanburgerBum has thought this opinion out thoroughly. Among other things, I think he is definitely forgetting or ignoring the fact the no team, with half a brain, would dare punt the ball to Hester in a tight game. I would love to play poker with HB...
Does this spell trouble for Rock? I like Rock..but maybe this is a move to make room for Mason..Just a thought..

OH my fault. He just returns kick-offs. Question. Devin Hester does both right? or no?
Yes, Hester does both, equally exceptional. And yes, I think Rock is in trouble.

[Keino]

Yeah, pretty much... I don't think HanburgerBum has thought this opinion out thoroughly. Among other things, I think he is definitely forgetting or ignoring the fact the no team, with half a brain, would dare punt the ball to Hester in a tight game. I would love to play poker with HB...

Yes, Hester does both, equally exceptional. And yes, I think Rock is in trouble.

With a weapon like Hester, I would only take him out if I had a BIG lead late in the game. His presence alone causes punt shanks and alters field position. Field position is a HUGE battle in any close game......

[skin4ever]

If you are the owner of the Bears, that would probably explain their sudden fall into the cesspool from the SB team of just two years ago.

If Chicago has a less than a TD lead late in the game, I think it is a legitimate issue whether Hester should be returning any punt at that point.

Hester got that new contract because of his skills as a returner(they legitimize it by saying he is now a receiver too, but come on). No one in NFL history(maybe) has ever been as dangerous as he is returning the ball. He is a special athlete, and any team would pay him, he is the only returner in the league with a legitimate chance to score everytime he touches the ball. I think his ability as a returner, forced the Bears with their off load of recievers in the offseason to take a hard look at Hester and hope he can be their WR too. He hasnt proven anything at WR.

Point is, we dont have a known guy yet with Hester's returning ability, thus, we cannot afford to lose Moss as being that guy. Comparing Hester to Moss return ability is like comparing a Michael Phelps to me at swimming. Yeah, we can both get across the pool but after that no comparison.

[skin4ever]

With a weapon like Hester, I would only take him out if I had a BIG lead late in the game. His presence alone causes punt shanks and alters field position. Field position is a HUGE battle in any close game......

spot on.

[GreenspanDan]

nobody compared moss to hester. hester only came up because hamburgerbum said he would bench him in close games.

[shally]

sure, why not? he has just as much chance of getting hurt there as dancing around d-linemen in his own backfield.

which is why i am opposed to him returning anything.. he is ALWAYS getting hurt

i would take that screen out of the playbook as it has lost a lot of its effectiveness

[sinskin]

Besides Darrell Green breaking 2 ribs during that famous return against Chicago and missing the next playoff game I believe obviously.....


Green returned a punt 52 yards for a touchdown against Chicago in the NFC Divisional Playoffs, leading the Redskins to the conference championship game. He tore rib cartilage on the punt return, but continued to play.

A week later, against Minnesota in the 1988 NFC Championship game, Green jarred the ball from Minnesota's Darrin Nelson on a fourth-down play at the goal line, securing a Redskins 17-10 victory.

[Keino]

Green returned a punt 52 yards for a touchdown against Chicago in the NFC Divisional Playoffs, leading the Redskins to the conference championship game. He tore rib cartilage on the punt return, but continued to play.

A week later, against Minnesota in the 1988 NFC Championship game, Green jarred the ball from Minnesota's Darrin Nelson on a fourth-down play at the goal line, securing a Redskins 17-10 victory.

I am pretty sure he came out of the Chicago game, but you are correct that he played the next week against Minnesota and made the play that sealed the deal....

[skin4ever]

Speaking of D. Green returning kicks, remember Bailey reversing the ball to D.Green against the Cowboys in what was his last game at Fed Ex. It was awesome. I remember everyone going nuts. Good times, good times.

[GreenspanDan]

yeah i remember that. it was a little hokey, because you could see it coming from a mile and a half away. oh gee. green's last game ever. and there he is lining up for punt coverage. oh gee, he's backpeddling really, really far from the line of scrimmage before the snap. hmmmm. wonder what's gonna happen.

still, i was one of those who erupted when he got the ball and almost broke it :) :)

[greatest2]

Speaking of D. Green returning kicks, remember Bailey reversing the ball to D.Green against the Cowboys in what was his last game at Fed Ex. It was awesome. I remember everyone going nuts. Good times, good times.

yea, that was awsome. i was there, and i remember the whole pregame introduction when the crowd went crazy. the chants of we want dallas! the tears in countless peoples eyes including mine

I remember the home game (can't remember which one from that season) where he picked off the pass and i think he took it the distance but they called it back for some reason. that woulda made it 20 straight years with a interception, instead of 19. doesn't matter, its a league record, but still, a perfect 20 for 20 woulda been nice.

[greatest2]

Green returned a punt 52 yards for a touchdown against Chicago in the NFC Divisional Playoffs, leading the Redskins to the conference championship game. He tore rib cartilage on the punt return, but continued to play.

A week later, against Minnesota in the 1988 NFC Championship game, Green jarred the ball from Minnesota's Darrin Nelson on a fourth-down play at the goal line, securing a Redskins 17-10 victory.

yea, i didn't think green missed a game because of the injury, but i didn't want to say anything until i made sure.....

One happened during a divisional playoff game against the Chicago Bears, where he returned a punt 52 yards for the game winning touchdown. During the return, he tore rib cartilage, but continued to play. Then in the 1987 NFC Championship game, on a pivotal fourth-down pass play at the goalline late in the game, Green jarred the ball from Minnesota’s Darrin Nelson to secure a Redskins 17-10 victory that enabled the team to go to Super Bowl XXII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darrell_Green#NFL_career


single-handily gave us another super bowl ring

[GreenspanDan]

well to be fair i would say the redskins super bowl that year was anything but single-handed.

however .... without that punt return, the history of our franchise might be quite different indeed.

[akhhorus]

well to be fair i would say the redskins super bowl that year was anything but single-handed.

however .... without that punt return, the history of our franchise might be quite different indeed.

Lets put Portis and Campbell on punt return duty then.

[GreenspanDan]

campbell wouldn't be very good. i'd put portis on kickoff duty though.

[akhhorus]

campbell wouldn't be very good. i'd put portis on kickoff duty though.

Brilliant move, put the engine of the entire offense on kickoff duty for a few more yards on kickoff thus making sure he's not 100% for most drives. :rolleyes:

Since you seem to look at league practice as validation, please tell us which other starting RBs are Kick returners?

[GreenspanDan]

i was obviously joking about portis, dude. give the indignation a rest.

[akhhorus]

i was obviously joking about portis, dude. give the indignation a rest.

Considering your past comments, its not outside the realm of possibility that you would be in favor of it. You want to put a starting WR at PR, so unless you're joking about that, I'm not being indignant. It would be nice if you discussed the issues, instead of trying to make me the issue.

[GreenspanDan]

green meant far, far more to the 80's redskins than moss does to this team, and yet Gibbs (one of the most conservative coaches ever) still felt it was a smart move to put his most dangerous player out there in serious situations.

and guess what? it turned out to be a brilliant move.

[akhhorus]

green meant far, far more to the 80's redskins than moss does to this team, and yet Gibbs (one of the most conservative coaches ever) still felt it was a smart move to put his most dangerous player out there in serious situations.

and guess what? it turned out to be a brilliant move.

Because that was a once in a blue moon move for an offensive spark against a great defense in the playoffs. Green had 5 punt returns total that year, so I guess Gibbs disagreed with your idea to make even a somewhat important player a returner, especially since his primary returners that year were Eric Yarber(punts) and Keith Griffin(kicks). Hmm.

[GreenspanDan]

gibbs was super-conservative, duh. my point was even he realized it was worth the risk sometimes.

[akhhorus]

gibbs was super-conservative, duh. my point was even he realized it was worth the risk sometimes.

Now you're backpedaling from what you originally said. If we were playing a tough defense at their home and needed an offensive spark, putting Moss back there would be a good gamble, you haven't been advocating that, you said that the skins should put Moss there as much as possible, which no coach does with their leading WR.

[GreenspanDan]

nah, moss and randle el seem pretty interchangeable to me. if one of them gets a leg ripped off the other can take over. we've got lots of wide receivers this year.

reminder: both these guys have been punt returners most of their careers. it's not like it'd be throwing them to the wolves.

[akhhorus]

nah, moss and randle el seem pretty interchangeable to me. if one of them gets a leg ripped off the other can take over. we've got lots of wide receivers this year.

reminder: both these guys have been punt returners most of their careers. it's not like it'd be throwing them to the wolves.

As always, you totally miss the point and are clueless. Btw, Moss hasn't returned a significant number of punts ever in his career(30 was his max in any year, thats less than 2 a game), and only has 8 returns in 3 years in DC.

[GreenspanDan]

returning two punts a game is pretty significant!

no need for personal insults, dude.

[akhhorus]

uhh returning two punts a game is pretty significant!

no need for personal insults, dude.

I'm not insulting you personally, just your opinions.

And thats half as many as the top punt returners did last year. Moss only did that 1 year(splitting the punt returns with mccariens) and was in the mid 20s in 2 others and less than 10 in 3 years. He's not been a full time punt returner.

[GreenspanDan]

i see. the clueless thing must have been a typo then. apology accepted. :)

back on point: glad to see you agree he's been a punt returner most of his career. thanks for being kind enough to supply the numbers to back it up.

[akhhorus]

i see. the clueless thing must have been a typo then. apology accepted. :)

I didn't apologize for anything, nor did I personally attack you.

back on point: glad to see you agree he's been a punt returner most of his career. thanks for being kind enough to supply the numbers to back it up.

Except that he hasn't. When the facts don't back up your latest rantings, you can't just declare that you were right. He's played 7 years, and returned even a remotely significant number of punts in 3 of them. Thats not most of his career no matter how you want to spin it.

[dj_stouty]

Geez. Bottom line: Moss isn't considered a top tier WR in this league and that is why the Skins are not concerned with him taking the punt return duties. If Zorn had plans for Moss to be the next 1,500 yard WR, then he would'nt give him the shot. But the simple fact that Zorn IS letting him take punts makes me believe; 1.) That Zorn doesn't expect top production from Moss....and 2.) That Zorn will have Jason spread the ball around to Moss, ARE, Thrash, Devin, Malcom, Portis/Betts and Fred.

[redwolf1218]

i dont care who they put back there, i just wish they'd go all-out for the block instead of setting up the return.