PDA

View Full Version : "This Ole Fart Thinks" - Saints vs Redskins


hail2skins
09-16-2008, 08:26 AM
HERE IT IS:

This Ole Fart Thinks (http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=580)

NamVet4
09-16-2008, 08:53 AM
Thanks for another excellent write up Shally ! :)
I was particularly impressed that you remembered that idiot Jimmy Johnson who made that dumb a@@ statement about Coach Zorn! Hey Jimmy -:moon2:
The thing that impressed me about Coach and our Beloved Team is that they are learning... This means that our Beloved Team has a shot this year. Thanks again for being "The Ole Fart"

Keino
09-16-2008, 09:07 AM
Nice Write-up Shally.

bergiemoore
09-16-2008, 09:14 AM
Thank you for bringing up Frosty's botched hold. The last thing I would want to hear is "Bring back Frost!"

Keino
09-16-2008, 09:19 AM
Question about the Holder -

Does it have to be the Punter? Isn't there a Back-up QB who can perform that function?

LATrueRedskin
09-16-2008, 09:21 AM
Question about the Holder -

Does it have to be the Punter? Isn't there a Back-up QB who can perform that function?

Absolutely it can be a QB. It actually makes more sense to have a QB because there's a threat of a fake. I'm surprised Todd Collins hasn't learned to do it yet.

shally
09-16-2008, 09:50 AM
Absolutely it can be a QB. It actually makes more sense to have a QB because there's a threat of a fake. I'm surprised Todd Collins hasn't learned to do it yet.


good points.. the thing is that you NEVER want the holder to be your #3 qb because that forces you to use an active spot for someone who is basically an "emergency player."

why not collins ? i can only think that it is because collins never did it to the extent he felt comfortable doing it.. you would think that having a player skilled at ball handling and potentially throwing the ball would be ideal. why not ARE ?

but the plain truth is that we dont use the fake fg very often.. i am trying to think of any time we actually did it.. even with my memory back to the stone age i struggle to find even one for certain, although i think we might have once a long time ago. as for a botch hold, how much good did it do romo ?
better to have the hold be perfect than to have someone who can complete a pass if the play goes south..

having the punter do it is more recent a trend. it always used to be a back up qb.. sometimes even a starter (sonny was one of the best).. you want someone who is used to handling a very hard snap cleanly.. that should be your punter..

BigHairedAristocrat
09-16-2008, 09:52 AM
Absolutely it can be a QB. It actually makes more sense to have a QB because there's a threat of a fake. I'm surprised Todd Collins hasn't learned to do it yet.

I think someone mentioned this before, but i think it would be interesting to have ARE as the holder. Not only could he be a threat to throw the ball, but in the event, the defense sniffed out the play, he would also be a threat to run the ball. his ellusiveness would give us a chance on a busted play over Todd.

BTW, nice writeup shally. Glad the mods finally put it up for us to enjoy!

Red Bear
09-16-2008, 10:07 AM
What happened was Campbell cranked up a conversion on second and 17 with a rope thrown into Cooley’s hands in the middle of a couple of defenders. First down!

2nd and 22!!!

and the thing about backup QBs performing the hold, just think back to dallas and how romo was holder the year he became starter. you had youre #1 QB out there holding for kicks the rest of the season because you dont want to disrupt any chemistry there. if campbell were to get injured and miss some games, would you want collins being your #1 QB and holding for kicks during that span? i wouldnt...

LATrueRedskin
09-16-2008, 10:11 AM
good points.. the thing is that you NEVER want the holder to be your #3 qb because that forces you to use an active spot for someone who is basically an "emergency player."

why not collins ? i can only think that it is because collins never did it to the extent he felt comfortable doing it.. you would think that having a player skilled at ball handling and potentially throwing the ball would be ideal. why not ARE ?

but the plain truth is that we dont use the fake fg very often.. i am trying to think of any time we actually did it.. even with my memory back to the stone age i struggle to find even one for certain, although i think we might have once a long time ago. as for a botch hold, how much good did it do romo ?
better to have the hold be perfect than to have someone who can complete a pass if the play goes south..

having the punter do it is more recent a trend. it always used to be a back up qb.. sometimes even a starter (sonny was one of the best).. you want someone who is used to handling a very hard snap cleanly.. that should be your punter..

If I'm Todd Collins (aka a career back-up), I want that on my resume. I think Randle El is a great idea, assuming he could do it. Unfortunately, I don't think Zorn wants him to spend practice time practicing holds lol.

Keino
09-16-2008, 10:17 AM
2nd and 22!!!

and the thing about backup QBs performing the hold, just think back to dallas and how romo was holder the year he became starter. you had youre #1 QB out there holding for kicks the rest of the season because you dont want to disrupt any chemistry there. if campbell were to get injured and miss some games, would you want collins being your #1 QB and holding for kicks during that span? i wouldnt...

Yes. This used to be primarily the Starting QB's job. I don't have a problem with the starting QB being the holder. Theismann was Moseley's holder....

shally
09-16-2008, 10:21 AM
Yes. This used to be primarily the Starting QB's job. I don't have a problem with the starting QB being the holder. Theismann was Moseley's holder....


i have a huge problem using our starting qb as a holder.. we lost our kicker jesse atkinson to a deliberate, dirty tackle by andre waters of philly on an extra point. can you imagine losing your starting qb on a play like that ? or even on an accidental hit ?
it is like using a starting corner to return kickoffs (jason sehorn), some risks just arent worth the potential benefit

shally
09-16-2008, 10:23 AM
If I'm Todd Collins (aka a career back-up), I want that on my resume. I think Randle El is a great idea, assuming he could do it. Unfortunately, I don't think Zorn wants him to spend practice time practicing holds lol.

with the demand for career backups, i guess a lot of them dont feel they need to do it.. jamie martin who is nearly 40 was just signed by someone and vinnie testaverde played last year

inevitable
09-16-2008, 11:25 AM
Great write up!

Couple things I would stress: the point about Malcolm Kelly's catch is well made! That was a classic NFL, drive extending catch by a big body receiver with sure hands. It really has been a missing piece of this offense, and I'd love to see Campbell look his way a lot more on 3rd and medium.

Also, I think its important to consider Steve Breaston when talking about their passing game. He was more involved in the week 1 win vs the 49ers, and there really wasn't any need to look outside of Fitzgerald and Boldin against the Dolphins because honestly those two were open the entire game, but Breaston is a solid football player with decent size who could have a big game. In my opinion, the Cardinals have the best WR corp we face all year long. Is our secondary up to the task? I think so. But a healthier Jason Taylor and impact plays from Evans, Wilson, James, and Carter could be the only way to stop them.

shally
09-16-2008, 11:34 AM
when warner has struggled, it has usually been because either, he is injured, or he has pressure in his face

he almost beat us last year while playing with a badly injured elbow. he is healthy this year, so it is absolutely imperative to get pressure onhim. best if it comes right up the middle because he is not that mobile now and depends upon a quick, accurate release. get in his face and he will put it up resulting in chances for turnovers

Wild Bore
09-16-2008, 11:44 AM
with the demand for career backups, i guess a lot of them dont feel they need to do it.. jamie martin who is nearly 40 was just signed by someone and vinnie testaverde played last yearHe already can put holder on his resume. Gosh he's been holding the clipboard for over 10 years!

Keino
09-16-2008, 11:47 AM
i have a huge problem using our starting qb as a holder.. we lost our kicker jesse atkinson to a deliberate, dirty tackle by andre waters of philly on an extra point. can you imagine losing your starting qb on a play like that ? or even on an accidental hit ?
it is like using a starting corner to return kickoffs (jason sehorn), some risks just arent worth the potential benefit

That was what, 1987? Was the holder hurt on the play as well?

FGs under 30 yards need to be automatic. If the holder is causing that not to be the case, well then we need to do something different. That missed FG potentially cost us the game......

SWFlaSkinsFan
09-16-2008, 12:21 PM
good points.. the thing is that you NEVER want the holder to be your #3 qb because that forces you to use an active spot for someone who is basically an "emergency player."

why not collins ? i can only think that it is because collins never did it to the extent he felt comfortable doing it.. you would think that having a player skilled at ball handling and potentially throwing the ball would be ideal. why not ARE ?

but the plain truth is that we dont use the fake fg very often.. i am trying to think of any time we actually did it.. even with my memory back to the stone age i struggle to find even one for certain, although i think we might have once a long time ago. as for a botch hold, how much good did it do romo ?
better to have the hold be perfect than to have someone who can complete a pass if the play goes south..

having the punter do it is more recent a trend. it always used to be a back up qb.. sometimes even a starter (sonny was one of the best).. you want someone who is used to handling a very hard snap cleanly.. that should be your punter..

If memory serves me correctly ... which is often a stretch ... it was in '96 against the Giants at FedEX ... the holder threw a nice pass to Stephen Alexander (I think) on the play, which either scored or set one up ... that's the best I can do at the moment.

Meatsnack
09-16-2008, 12:44 PM
This was your best write-up so far, Shally. A nice read and usefully colorful prose. I forever think of potential Ints "clanging" off Darrell Green's hands and it was fun to see that used in the context of our current DBs. I wish I had access to the old film to add up how many Ints #28 would have had if he could catch. Hopefully C-los will challenge Darrell in some categories other than this one... ;)

I fully agree about Kelly. Just one catch for just five yards but it was good to see a big body move the sticks. I also liked the postgame commentary by London who said of Horton, "Those plays were made by the kid because he was doing his job - he was in the right place because that was where he was supposed to be on those plays." So, it seems he was making the point of saying that the rook was assignement sound already. I think we will be seeing a lot more of Horton, regardless of who the titular starter is.

HanburgerBum
09-16-2008, 04:01 PM
i have a huge problem using our starting qb as a holder.. we lost our kicker jesse atkinson to a deliberate, dirty tackle by andre waters of philly on an extra point. can you imagine losing your starting qb on a play like that ? or even on an accidental hit ?
it is like using a starting corner to return kickoffs (jason sehorn), some risks just arent worth the potential benefit


Excellent job, Shelly.

I think you will see as the season progresses that Campbell can get the job done if the Oline protects him. The key, to me, is still the Oline.

I kind of disagree about not risking the starting QB as a holder. I think the chances of a holder getting hurt (even by a dirty hit) are remote. Unlike the kicker, the holder does not have his leg extended up in the air. Theismann was one of the best holders ever when he was the starting QB and he never came close to getting hurt while holding. If the other team is stupid enough to plow into our holder/starting QB, we will take the 15 yards and go for the TD.

I am guessing none of our QBs is holding because they have not shown that they are any good at it. Collins, in particular, should do everything he can to become proficient at holding. That skill can be the difference whether he makes a roster or not down the road. Even Campbell should consider learning how to hold--he will be 30 before he knows it.

shally
09-16-2008, 05:01 PM
Excellent job, Shelly.

I think you will see as the season progresses that Campbell can get the job done if the Oline protects him. The key, to me, is still the Oline.

I kind of disagree about not risking the starting QB as a holder. I think the chances of a holder getting hurt (even by a dirty hit) are remote. Unlike the kicker, the holder does not have his leg extended up in the air. Theismann was one of the best holders ever when he was the starting QB and he never came close to getting hurt while holding. If the other team is stupid enough to plow into our holder/starting QB, we will take the 15 yards and go for the TD.

I am guessing none of our QBs is holding because they have not shown that they are any good at it. Collins, in particular, should do everything he can to become proficient at holding. That skill can be the difference whether he makes a roster or not down the road. Even Campbell should consider learning how to hold--he will be 30 before he knows it.

again, i respect all the contrary opinions, but i think it is fool's gold to place your starting qb at risk holding for points and fg's.. you think indy would allow peyton to do it ? not on your life..

there is no more important person on the field than your qb and at the very least the holder is looking downward and is extremely vulnerable all throughout the kick. guys are flying at him from every direction and even without malice, it is far too easy for someone to get hurt.. hasnt happened yet ? well, who wants to blow a season on this kind of chance ?

as for collins, or any other backup qb, i would bet you a month's mortgage that the ability to hold for points is so far down the list of skills that a team looks for in a backup as to be insignificant compared to his ability to qb the team.. when it comes down to the decision as to whether or not to keep collins, i can just about guarantee you that it wont be decided upon ability to hold for points, or not.. age, stats, salary, performance, potential for growth, relationship with the qb coach/OC/HC are all far more important.. or to put it another way, if you think anyone is going to be kept inthe nfl because of their ability to hold ??? nope, it aint gonna happen.. holders
are a dime a dozen until something goes wrong..

shally
09-16-2008, 05:04 PM
If memory serves me correctly ... which is often a stretch ... it was in '96 against the Giants at FedEX ... the holder threw a nice pass to Stephen Alexander (I think) on the play, which either scored or set one up ... that's the best I can do at the moment.

good for you !!!

i really struggled to come up with one, and that sounds about right. tip of the hat to you....

Red Bear
09-16-2008, 08:46 PM
i have a huge problem using our starting qb as a holder.. we lost our kicker jesse atkinson to a deliberate, dirty tackle by andre waters of philly on an extra point. can you imagine losing your starting qb on a play like that ? or even on an accidental hit ?
it is like using a starting corner to return kickoffs (jason sehorn), some risks just arent worth the potential benefit

this is exactly why i agree with this, the chance of some freak injury is too great. at this point its better off just to let durant brooks develop, if it becomes a constant problem then we really need to look into it though. and about sehorn, its kind of why i dont want to see santana back their returning punts now that he is fully healthy.

redwolf1218
09-16-2008, 08:55 PM
this is exactly why i agree with this, the chance of some freak injury is too great. at this point its better off just to let durant brooks develop, if it becomes a constant problem then we really need to look into it though. and about sehorn, its kind of why i dont want to see santana back their returning punts now that he is fully healthy.

i would like to see Colt as the holder, but Zorn probably wants to work with him as QB in practice.

as for Moss, i'd like to see him back there as punt returner, but not to take any chances.

Keino
09-16-2008, 09:46 PM
i would like to see Colt as the holder, but Zorn probably wants to work with him as QB in practice.



You realize that activating the 3rd string QB as anything but emergency reserve QB means that we have to deactivate another player, right?

You still want to see Colt holding?

shally
09-16-2008, 10:00 PM
You realize that activating the 3rd string QB as anything but emergency reserve QB means that we have to deactivate another player, right?

You still want to see Colt holding?

that is why you will never see Colt holding unless he is the number 2 qb.. it is a waste of a position spot..

shally
09-16-2008, 10:27 PM
for any who want to fire Durant Brooks after his admittedly miserable first two games, all i can say is....David Akers

he had a miserable 1 game career with the skins and Norv in his infinite wisdom, cut Akers.. we all know how that story turned out. many years of solid play for the eagles.

granted, Brooks has been awful and the heat is really being turned up to find another punter if he doesnt come out of the tailspin he is in.. i would say, give the kid a few more games to prove himself. there is no question he has a great leg. there is no question he can punt inside the opponents redzone. he also held for a solid kicker while in college. he has the skill package. he just needs to master the mental aspect of the pro game.

we put up with an inconsistent Frost for 2 years, so we can put up with an inconsistent, lame, Brooks for a couple more games.. his upside is worth it..

Meatsnack
09-16-2008, 10:59 PM
for any who want to fire Durant Brooks after his admittedly miserable first two games, all i can say is....David Akers

he had a miserable 1 game career with the skins and Norv in his infinite wisdom, cut Akers.. we all know how that story turned out. many years of solid play for the eagles.

granted, Brooks has been awful and the heat is really being turned up to find another punter if he doesnt come out of the tailspin he is in.. i would say, give the kid a few more games to prove himself. there is no question he has a great leg. there is no question he can punt inside the opponents redzone. he also held for a solid kicker while in college. he has the skill package. he just needs to master the mental aspect of the pro game.

we put up with an inconsistent Frost for 2 years, so we can put up with an inconsistent, lame, Brooks for a couple more games.. his upside is worth it..

Agreed. Frosty the Shankman (props to CNY for the Nom du Suc) is well gone. Brooks can do this and as painful as it has been to watch I think he will round into shape. If not, well, he can't make me anymore twitchy on 4th down than Frost did. Yeesh.

skinsfan36
09-17-2008, 11:11 AM
nice write up shally

Lavar703
09-17-2008, 02:12 PM
Very good write up shally. Anyway, I was very pleased with the play of Blades and Horton, you didnt even notice they were replacements, it just seemed like they were supposed to be out there. Good to see Kelly get some action and he took a good lick too so that should be good for him in the long run. Great game, I was pretty pleased with everything.

Cutter
09-18-2008, 11:04 AM
Very nice write up sir.

I was bitter about Campbell too until that 4th quarter. Enough can't be said about that deep ball to Moss. You can nit pick, but really, that's the kind of play that makes you worth what we invested in him. He simultaneously slipped a tackle, stepped up in the pocket and threw the ball to the open guy. He didn't drift. He didn't pat. He didn't stare down his WR. Some will say he under threw it (which is kinda fair) however, he had a fat kid sitting in his lap and he made a 'good enough' throw anyway. It was really a very impressive play from JC all the way around. I tip my hat to him on that one. I don't believe anyone could have played it better there. I'd gripe about the rest of the game (the first quarter in particular - maybe I will later) but right now I'm so impressed with that one play that I'll stay positive on him.

Do we have a thread on punt returning? It sounds like ARE will still be the guy. I think I'd rather have Rock or Betts back there.

shally
09-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Very nice write up sir.

I was bitter about Campbell too until that 4th quarter. Enough can't be said about that deep ball to Moss. You can nit pick, but really, that's the kind of play that makes you worth what we invested in him. He simultaneously slipped a tackle, stepped up in the pocket and threw the ball to the open guy. He didn't drift. He didn't pat. He didn't stare down his WR. Some will say he under threw it (which is kinda fair) however, he had a fat kid sitting in his lap and he made a 'good enough' throw anyway. It was really a very impressive play from JC all the way around. I tip my hat to him on that one. I don't believe anyone could have played it better there. I'd gripe about the rest of the game (the first quarter in particular - maybe I will later) but right now I'm so impressed with that one play that I'll stay positive on him.

Do we have a thread on punt returning? It sounds like ARE will still be the guy. I think I'd rather have Rock or Betts back there.


rock and betts are the KO return guys, but it is a far different skill package that is required to return punts as opposed to KO's... it looks to be ARE and moss, if the situation is right

Cutter
09-18-2008, 01:11 PM
No doubt. I'm thinking they'd use Moss if we really need something but otherwise stick to ARE. In the other thread we both think Thrash is the guy but he's hurt.

shally
09-18-2008, 01:13 PM
jasno said that thrash was back at practice today.. along with kareem moore.. looks like we will see both this week

Cutter
09-18-2008, 01:53 PM
It must have been less of a high ankle sprain and more or a rolled ankle.

skin4ever
09-18-2008, 02:15 PM
Very nice write up sir.

I was bitter about Campbell too until that 4th quarter. Enough can't be said about that deep ball to Moss. You can nit pick, but really, that's the kind of play that makes you worth what we invested in him. He simultaneously slipped a tackle, stepped up in the pocket and threw the ball to the open guy. He didn't drift. He didn't pat. He didn't stare down his WR. Some will say he under threw it (which is kinda fair) however, he had a fat kid sitting in his lap and he made a 'good enough' throw anyway. It was really a very impressive play from JC all the way around. I tip my hat to him on that one. I don't believe anyone could have played it better there. I'd gripe about the rest of the game (the first quarter in particular - maybe I will later) but right now I'm so impressed with that one play that I'll stay positive on him.

Do we have a thread on punt returning? It sounds like ARE will still be the guy. I think I'd rather have Rock or Betts back there.

Good on ya for leaving it lie where the truth is, he played a good game and won it. As for your thoughts on the first quarter, I dont know what they are, but we were moving the ball and JC was making progession in this offense and didnt turn it over. I think thats all you or anyone can ask of a guy who is in his 1st year in the offense(2nd game nonetheless). Plus, its a hell of a lot better than against the giants.

shally
09-18-2008, 02:21 PM
It must have been less of a high ankle sprain and more or a rolled ankle.

would tend to agree on that.. thrash was out for weeks with his last high ankle sprain last year.. if he is practicing already less than one week after this injury, it probably is really a mild injury no matter what the ligament that was injured...

Cutter
09-18-2008, 02:24 PM
Doesn't "High Ankle Sprain" really mean "broken leg"?

shally
09-18-2008, 02:36 PM
Doesn't "High Ankle Sprain" really mean "broken leg"?

no..

quick tutorial on ankle sprains

a sprain indicates a stretched or torn ligament that holds a joint together.

around the ankle are a series of ligaments on both the medial (inner) side and the lateral(outer and front side). these hold the two bones of the leg together at their ends as they go on top of, and on either side of the talus (which is in the foot).. these are the ligaments that are injured when someone usually rolls an ankle. they tend to heal in 4-6 weeks or less and basketball players are prone to them a lot.. if they get permanently stretched out then the ankle may become unstable over time (trick ankle)

there is another longer ligament that holds the 2 bones of the leg together that is deep inside the leg.. that is the ligament that is torn or stretched in a "high ankle sprain".. it is usually caused by a more severe kind of trauma that involves a twisting or rotational force on the foot.. as though you were to grab the foot and try and rotate it around the axis of the leg as though you were opening a bottle cap. if it is badly damaged the ankle will spread apart with weight bearing and feel unstable.. it takes a much longer time for this injury to heal and sometimes it is necessary to put a temporary screw across the two bones to hold them together while things heal. it is removed in about 6 weeks but someone cannot bear weight while this type of screw is in

obviously that is why high ankle sprains are so much more difficult to get over.. much more serious injury. i would guess a lot of them happen when the defensive man grabs the foot of the player and holds on as the player goes down.. or the player catches the toe portion of his shoe on the turf and the body keeps on rotating with the foot still planted...

Cutter
09-19-2008, 08:54 AM
Thanks Shally. I've heard all sorts of different things over the years. Sadly, I'm working on a trick ankle. I hurt my right ankle by sneezing these days. These High ankle sprains have been killing my man Thrash for a couple of years now. Could he have a trick high ankle?

shally
09-19-2008, 10:31 AM
Thanks Shally. I've heard all sorts of different things over the years. Sadly, I'm working on a trick ankle. I hurt my right ankle by sneezing these days. These High ankle sprains have been killing my man Thrash for a couple of years now. Could he have a trick high ankle?

he could have an unstable ankle from a series of high ankle sprains.. each one tends to be a little easier to get.. ultimately, this type of thing tends to be career ending as it leads to a degenerative condition that is not "fixable", although sometimes they will try stabilization procedures to make the ankle less prone to slippage..the success rate is "iffy"