Shawn Springs spent Sunday night at TO's crib

[cal_junior]

Kind of an interesting little anecdote. I wonder what they talked about:

*Cornerback Shawn Springs flew back from Dallas this morning and came to the Park for treatment on his left calf, which prevented him from playing the fourth quarter on Sunday. Springs said he's walking fine and the pain is nothing compared to when he missed the season opener with a shin injury. Springs spent Sunday night at Terrell Owens' condo watching the Bears-Eagles game and then visited his father, Ron, who remains in a coma at a Dallas-area hospital.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/redskins/2008/Sep/30/springs-hopes-play-sunday/

[AliBabba]

Kind of an interesting little anecdote. I wonder what they talked about:




http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/redskins/2008/Sep/30/springs-hopes-play-sunday/
that must have been awkward. I wonder if he played keepaway with the remote?

[guess88]

Awkward... I really do wonder what they might've talked about. But then.. they're everyday people paid to do a job.. it just so happens theirs is high profile and athletic. When they clock out... friends will be friends.

[shally]

they are best buds and offseason workout warriors.. no big deal

[Redskinmayhem]

Plus, SS is pretty much a Cowboy by DNA, albeit back from a time when I could "respectfully" hate the Cowboys.

I don't know though...I'm too competitive. I couldn't workout with someone I'm going to go up against later in the season.

[JasonCampbell]

I really don't care, but you would have thought he'd spend the night with his family.

[BraveHeartFan]

This isn't surprising. I'm sure this happens pretty often since a lot of these guys are friends.

[BurgundyNGold]

I really don't care, but you would have thought he'd spend the night with his family.
I know that he asked Zorn to be able to go see his father in the hospital after the game. I wonder if he told Zorn that he'd be taking his time getting there, lounging around over at TO's house for a while first.

[cal_junior]

they are best buds and offseason workout warriors.. no big deal

No, no big deal. But I know if one of my good friends shut me down for the better part of a game and helped hand my team its first loss of the season it might make for some interesting convo.

Let's just say it would have been fun to have a microphone in there.

[JasonCampbell]

I know that he asked Zorn to be able to go see his father in the hospital after the game. I wonder if he told Zorn that he'd be taking his time getting there, lounging around over at TO's house for a while first.

While having a calf injury that could use some treatment...

[guess88]

While having a calf injury that could use some treatment...

They're people too... he did his job, and did it well, leave his personal time to himself. Calf strain... really all you can do is ice, and massage for the first few days, I'm sure a professional veteran athlete can handle that.

[AliBabba]

They're people too... he did his job, and did it well, leave his personal time to himself. Calf strain... really all you can do is ice, and massage for the first few days, I'm sure a professional veteran athlete can handle that.
amen

[BurgundyNGold]

amen
Yeah, but the thing about Springs is that he has a history of playing fast and loose with the truth for his own reasons. I wouldn't be shocked if that calf strain isn't as bad as he is leading on.

[Keino]

Yeah, but the thing about Springs is that he has a history of playing fast and loose with the truth for his own reasons. I wouldn't be shocked if that calf strain isn't as bad as he is leading on.

Huh?

What is this history you speak of?

[Keino]

I really don't care, but you would have thought he'd spend the night with his family.

He and his wife are estranged, and his step-mom passed away. Are you Serious Vinny?

[guess88]

Yeah, but the thing about Springs is that he has a history of playing fast and loose with the truth for his own reasons. I wouldn't be shocked if that calf strain isn't as bad as he is leading on.

You can generally walk around fine with a calf strain, it's the push off while sprinting that kills you. When it happened to me this summer, I could walk fine after a week (didn't even really feel a strain), but the moment I tried to run, it pulled on me. Took about a good 3-4 weeks to heal.

[BurgundyNGold]

Huh?

What is this history you speak of?
We've been through this back when Springs was holding out last year. I'm not going to get back into all of that. Suffice is to say that, for as great as Springs was in the 1st half of the Dallass game, I was equally as disappointed that he didn't receive treatment for said calf strain and get back into the game.

[BurgundyNGold]

You can generally walk around fine with a calf strain, it's the push off while sprinting that kills you. When it happened to me this summer, I could walk fine after a week (didn't even really feel a strain), but the moment I tried to run, it pulled on me. Took about a good 3-4 weeks to heal.
Then again, you didn't have a top notch training staff and access to medical supplies on the sideline. ;)

Besides, this is football. There is a difference between playing with pain and playing hurt. I'm suspect of how "hurt" a calf strain is, especially in a huge rivalry game.

[shally]

We've been through this back when Springs was holding out last year. I'm not going to get back into all of that. Suffice is to say that, for as great as Springs was in the 1st half of the Dallass game, I was equally as disappointed that he didn't receive treatment for said calf strain and get back into the game.


that was not lost on me either... we will see how much more production we get out of springs as the season progresses... i expect him to take care of his body. i dont want him to hurt the team or himself by playing..but....sometimes i just dont know....he really reminds me of a high maintenance thoroughbred race horse that breaks down a lot...

[guess88]

We've been through this back when Springs was holding out last year. I'm not going to get back into all of that. Suffice is to say that, for as great as Springs was in the 1st half of the Dallass game, I was equally as disappointed that he didn't receive treatment for said calf strain and get back into the game.

They showed him on the table getting his calf worked on. If a corner can't run well, he shouldn't be covering anyone.

[JasonCampbell]

He and his wife are estranged, and his step-mom passed away. Are you Serious Vinny?

I apologize for not knowing the family situations of my players.

[guess88]

that was not lost on me either... we will see how much more production we get out of springs as the season progresses... i expect him to take care of his body. i dont want him to hurt the team or himself by playing..but....sometimes i just dont know....he really reminds me of a high maintenance thoroughbred race horse that breaks down a lot...

we should just nickname him Ferrari:)

[shally]

Then again, you didn't have a top notch training staff and access to medical supplies on the sideline. ;)

Besides, this is football. There is a difference between playing with pain and playing hurt. I'm suspect of how "hurt" a calf strain is, especially in a huge rivalry game.

springs obviously takes care of himself and his career first and foremost...maybe some of that is watching how his father was ruined at an early age and has aged far beyond many of his cohorts...???

[BurgundyNGold]

springs obviously takes care of himself and his career first and foremost...maybe some of that is watching how his father was ruined at an early age and has aged far beyond many of his cohorts...???
Diabetes will do that to you. It's a terrible disease.

[shally]

we should just nickname him Ferrari:)

perhaps, more like DeLorean...lol

[Keino]

We've been through this back when Springs was holding out last year. I'm not going to get back into all of that. Suffice is to say that, for as great as Springs was in the 1st half of the Dallass game, I was equally as disappointed that he didn't receive treatment for said calf strain and get back into the game.

Right and what we went through was that the guy wasn't holding out at all, but was with his family for a few days after a complicated birth procedure for his kid. He was excused.

As for the Dallas game, he got treatment and couldn't go. Would you have preferred he hurt the team by playing less than 100% and potentially making it worse?

[Keino]

I apologize for not knowing the family situations of my players.

Your apology for be for your assumption. You assumed he chose not to be with his family.......

[guess88]

perhaps, more like DeLorean...lol

lol. he's not fast enough to time travel. maybe TVR?:)

[BurgundyNGold]

Right and what we went through was that the guy wasn't holding out at all, but was with his family for a few days after a complicated birth procedure for his kid. He was excused.
That wasn't the totality or even the gist of the conversation, but it's neither here nor there.

As for the Dallas game, he got treatment and couldn't go. Would you have preferred he hurt the team by playing less than 100% and potentially making it worse?
All I know is that Smooty went back into the game with what was likely a concussion. Smooty got some man points this weekend with me. Springs and his muscle strain did not.

[shally]

Diabetes will do that to you. It's a terrible disease.

agree. no doubt it is multifactorial and hereditary.. in that sense, i can see shawn seeing the future and wanting to remain as whole as possible. plus, i remember reading in the past that even before this last round of health issues, that ron's hands were destroyed by the pounding he took..

shawn is just looking out for shawn..

[BurgundyNGold]

agree. no doubt it is multifactorial and hereditary.. in that sense, i can see shawn seeing the future and wanting to remain as whole as possible. plus, i remember reading in the past that even before this last round of health issues, that ron's hands were destroyed by the pounding he took..

shawn is just looking out for shawn..
Yeah, but most types of diabetes can be largely controlled or even avoided by proper diet and exercise. And if he has Type I diabetes, what he does on the football field isn't going to change that.

[shally]

That wasn't the totality or even the gist of the conversation, but it's neither here nor there.


All I know is that Smooty went back into the game with what was likely a concussion. Smooty got some man points this weekend with me. Springs and his muscle strain did not.

springs said he felt something "pop".... who knows what that was ? if he felt that, it probably was not a sprain

[Keino]

That wasn't the totality or even the gist of the conversation, but it's neither here nor there.

It is both here and there. If you are going to remember it wrong and assert that the guy was dishonest (and has a history of dishonesty) then you should be prepared to re-hash this discussion or bump the thread up. I remember that the thread ended up leading into a FML Act discussion in Potomac, but as I recall, the most significant point made was not taking Gibbs' phone call over the summer. His family time away at the start of training camp was 100% excused and thus not a hold-out as erroneously stated (both now and then).


All I know is that Smooty went back into the game with what was likely a concussion. Smooty got some man points this weekend with me. Springs and his muscle strain did not.

Smoot got dinged in the head and saw Stars. Springs had a leg injury. I am Sorry but you need your legs in order to play man to man against one of the best WRs in the game. The situations are not congruent AT ALL.

[BurgundyNGold]

springs said he felt something "pop".... who knows what that was ? if he felt that, it probably was not a sprain
As far as I've heard, it wasn't even a sprain. It was a strain. If there is more of an injury here than just a strain, then I'll certainly reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks, lol. With the information I currently have, I have to weigh that against everything else I know about Springs when passing judgement.

[shally]

Yeah, but most types of diabetes can be largely controlled or even avoided by proper diet and exercise. And if he has Type I diabetes, what he does on the football field isn't going to change that.

respectfully disagree with you, sir... there is a definite disconnect between the long term effects of diabetes and the extent of control over the years. the long term effects such as retinopathy, kidney disease, vascular destruction, etc have little or NO relationship to the ability to control the disease or maintain reasonable blood sugars.. it is in the very nature of the disease itself. the longer you have it, the worse the effects..

some of the latest research is pointing to a strong auto-immune component such as seen in diseases like lupus, etc..

[VegasSkinsFan]

springs said he felt something "pop".... who knows what that was ? if he felt that, it probably was not a sprain

On kffl they had a blurg that we are looking at fa cb fakhir brown. Maybe more to that "pop" than meets the eye.

[shally]

As far as I've heard, it wasn't even a sprain. It was a strain. If there is more of an injury here than just a strain, then I'll certainly reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks, lol. With the information I currently have, I have to weigh that against everything else I know about Springs when passing judgement.

again, i recall reading springs himself saying he felt something pop.. as you say, everyone else seems to be labeling it a sprain...

[shally]

On kffl they had a blurg that we are looking at fa cb fakhir brown. Maybe more to that "pop" than meets the eye.

we have competion, then.. jim haslett said his first move as HC was to try and re sign fakir brown to the Rams...

[shally]

As far as I've heard, it wasn't even a sprain. It was a strain. If there is more of an injury here than just a strain, then I'll certainly reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks, lol. With the information I currently have, I have to weigh that against everything else I know about Springs when passing judgement.

consider Sprain and Strain to be interchangable when used by public information clowns.. they have no clue what the difference is...

[BurgundyNGold]

It is both here and there. If you are going to remember it wrong and assert that the guy was dishonest (and has a history of dishonesty) then you should be prepared to re-hash this discussion or bump the thread up. I remember that the thread ended up leading into a FML Act discussion in Potomac, but as I recall, the most significant point made was not taking Gibbs' phone call over the summer. His family time away at the start of training camp was 100% excused and thus not a hold-out as erroneously stated (both now and then).
I'm not remembering it wrong and I'm not getting into it.

Smoot got dinged in the head and saw Stars. Springs had a leg injury. I am Sorry but you need your legs in order to play man to man against one of the best WRs in the game. The situations are not congruent AT ALL.
Brain damage isn't congruent? By any diagnosis you want, head trauma is more of a concern for doctors than a calf strain. People have retired because of head trauma while nobody, that I know of, has even so much as missed a game for a calf strain.

What's next? Springs gets a charlie horse or a hang nail, so he sits on the bench during a huge rivalry game?

[guess88]

we have competion, then.. jim haslett said his first move as HC was to try and re sign fakir brown to the Rams...

But if you were Fakir, would you really want to go back to the dissaray the Rams have become?

[Keino]

Now you are bordering on delusional. People have retired due to head trauma....SERIOUS Head trauma, just as they have retired from leg inuries. You cannot on the one hand dismiss the seriousness of the leg injury while at the same time making it seem as though Smoot need Smelling salt and had no idea where he was. If he had a concussion at all the Doctors would not have allowed him to play.

And Yes, you are remembering it wrong. Springs did not lie about anything with regard to missing Training Camp time and had Joe Gibbs' permission to have the time off to be with his wife an newborn. I don't blame you for not wanting to get into it, because you cannot prove your assertion.

[BurgundyNGold]

respectfully disagree with you, sir... there is a definite disconnect between the long term effects of diabetes and the extent of control over the years. the long term effects such as retinopathy, kidney disease, vascular destruction, etc have little or NO relationship to the ability to control the disease or maintain reasonable blood sugars.. it is in the very nature of the disease itself. the longer you have it, the worse the effects..

some of the latest research is pointing to a strong auto-immune component such as seen in diseases like lupus, etc..
Yes, but the type of diabetes you have determines the extent of long term damage and the prognosis for treatment, no? If Springs has inhereted the diabetes from his father (which, as I understand it likely would've manifested itself long before now), nothing he does on or off the football field will change that. Ron Springs caught his diabetes late, as well, I believe.

[shally]

But if you were Fakir, would you really want to go back to the dissaray the Rams have become?


well, there is history there.. brown was drafted by the saints while haslett was HC there. there is a definite comfort level and knowledge of the schemes and that is why brown followed haslett up to st louis..
that said, money and opportunity talks..and what does that say about who is calling the shots now in st louis ? zygmunt wasnt exactly in a strong position as GM and this may show his power eroding further

[BurgundyNGold]

Now you are bordering on delusional. People have retired due to head trauma....SERIOUS Head traums. You cannot on the one hand dismiss the seriousness of the leg injury while at the same time making it seem as though Smoot need Smelling salt and had no idea where he was. If he had a concussion at all the Doctors would not have allowed him to play.
There is little distinction between "getting your bell rung" and a concussion. Effectively, they're different degrees of the same thing. If you don't know where you are or have lost consciousness due to a blow to the head you have, effectively, gotten a concussion.

Furthermore, most head trauma retirees are due to cumulative trauma. In that way, it is far worse than a calf strain -- the initial and cumulative effects of which do not seem to significantly affect playing time.

And Yes, you are remembering it wrong. Springs did not lie about anything with regard to missing Training Camp time and had Joe Gibbs' permission to have the time off to be with his wife an newborn. I don't blame you for not wanting to get into it, because you cannot prove your assertion.
I'm not getting into it because I've already had the discussion. It's a matter of public record on this forum and a waste of my time to have the discussion again.

[AliBabba]

Getting back on subject for a moment. Springs has said that he heard a "pop" but he also says that he is feeling much better and is likely to start this weekend.

As for man points and such. Smooty defintely earned some. Springs has a long history of injury problems and I would prefer that he sit the entire half than to risk aggravating something and we lose him for an entire game or more.

I'm sure there are some players that would have gone out and played but SS knows his body better than anyone and I assume that his decision to not play was centered on reason and not desire. As others have said a CB with leg issues can become a liability very quickly especially against the likes of TO

[Keino]

There is little distinction between "getting your bell rung" and a concussion. Effectively, they're different degrees of the same thing. If you don't know where you are or have lost consciousness due to a blow to the head you have, effectively, gotten a concussion.

Furthermore, most head trauma retirees are due to cumulative trauma. In that way, it is far worse than a calf strain -- the initial and cumulative effects of which do not seem to significantly affect playing time.

Yes, but there are instances of Head trauma in which he would not have been able to convince the docs to let him play. His "Bell rung" was not one such instance.


I'm not getting into it because I've already had the discussion. It's a matter of public record on this forum and a waste of my time to have the discussion again.


You've asserted a history of lies. Surely an example should be provided or you should retract the statement.

[shally]

Yes, but the type of diabetes you have determines the extent of long term damage and the prognosis for treatment, no? If Springs has inhereted the diabetes from his father (which, as I understand it likely would've manifested itself long before now), nothing he does on or off the football field will change that. Ron Springs caught his diabetes late, as well, I believe.

yes and no.. juvenile diabetes (like cutler has) carries the worst prognosis. in general, the later the onset, the better the prognosis, all things being equal.
we dont even know how long ron springs had diabetes because he is one of those guys who appeared to get very poor care post his career inthe nfl

and we dont even begin to fully understand the true genetics of diabetes yet. kids have diabetes even when their parents dont have it at all, or have late onset diabetes..

so, if i am shawn springs, i worry all the time about what my long term future is, given the terrible condition his father is in at a young age...
maybe the football injuries dont translate directly, but the need for additional surgeries because of the arthritic conditions that DO develop secondary to injuries really worries me-- having seen what happened to ron...

[Meatsnack]

Kind of an interesting little anecdote. I wonder what they talked about:


Now, as we discussed Terrell, if I made you my girlfriend ON the field...

[Keino]

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=41334

Above is the thread. He reported to Camp and then immediately left to be with his newborn.

He didn't participate in the off-season program and did not answer Coach Gibbs' calls, but he absolutely did not hold out. The only possible "Lie" that he could have told was that the Skins asked him to take a pay cut, however, we do know that the Skins wanted to re-structure.

Again, this history of lies should be easily proven.

I assert that I am the best lover in America. When you ask me for testimonials from thousands of women, I am refusing to discuss it.

[AliBabba]

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=41334

Above is the thread. He reported to Camp and then immediately left to be with his newborn.

He didn't participate in the off-season program and did not answer Coach Gibbs' calls, but he absolutely did not hold out. The only possible "Lie" that he could have told was that the Skins asked him to take a pay cut, however, we do know that the Skins wanted to re-structure.

Again, this history of lies should be easily proven.

I assert that I am the best lover in America. When you ask me for testimonials from thousands of women, I am refusing to discuss it.
I can disprove that easily as I am the greatest lover in America... FACT

[BurgundyNGold]

Yes, but there are instances of Head trauma in which he would not have been able to convince the docs to let him play. His "Bell rung" was not one such instance.
Now, a concussion = calf strain? Keeping riding that Springs train.

You've asserted a history of lies. Surely an example should be provided or you should retract the statement.
All of this is at least playing "fast and loose" with the truth, which is not necessarily an outright lie. And he does.

How about Springs told his teammates "Goodbye. It's been good to know you" (paraphrasing) in the locker room during the 2006 season (which is documented) and then in an interview saying that he didn't? Or the fact that Joe Gibbs said that he tried to call Springs and let messages for him during the 2007 offseason and Springs saying that he didn't receive them? Or what about Springs being the likeliest candidate to be Deepskin in the 2007 WaPo expose article, which he denies, as well?

Or, more recently, how about telling Zorn you're going to see your father in the hospital but neglecting to tell him that you'd be kicking it at the home of a division opponent during the season before you eventually made your way over to see your father? Don't you think that Zorn would've liked to have known that beforehand? If nothing else, that's a mistruth by virtue of omission.

Look, there's no getting into this. You like Springs, I get it. And if it was just one thing, I wouldn't think twice about it. If Smoot or Rogers said they were hurt, I wouldn't have questioned it for a nanosecond. But there's a mosiac of these things that are hanging around Springs. Not to mention the fact that Springs is probably the most selfish person on this team.

In this climate -- that he created -- I don't think it is unreasonable to [not] take [everything] he says as 100% unquestionable truth.

[edit]

[BurgundyNGold]

yes and no.. juvenile diabetes (like cutler has) carries the worst prognosis. in general, the later the onset, the better the prognosis, all things being equal.
we dont even know how long ron springs had diabetes because he is one of those guys who appeared to get very poor care post his career inthe nfl
I remember reading the story. He found out late in his playing career and, apparently, had pretty bad eating habits to boot.

[InsomniaKiller]

I hope he left a floater in the washroom.

[BurgundyNGold]

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=41334

Above is the thread. He reported to Camp and then immediately left to be with his newborn.
Which is irrelevant to what I said in this thread.

He didn't participate in the off-season program and did not answer Coach Gibbs' calls, but he absolutely did not hold out. The only possible "Lie" that he could have told was that the Skins asked him to take a pay cut, however, we do know that the Skins wanted to re-structure.
Please don't quote words that I didn't say. It just weakens your argument because it either means that you have poor punctuation skills (and shouldn't be taken seriously) or you are mischaracterizing what another person said (and shouldn't be taken seriously).

Again, this history of lies should be easily proven.
Again, not what I said. I think you're Springs sycophanatacism is getting the better of you.

I assert that I am the best lover in America. When you ask me for testimonials from thousands of women, I am refusing to discuss it.
And if we had debated that and it was in another thread on this forum, I wouldn't want to go through all of that again either.

[BurgundyNGold]

I can disprove that easily as I am the greatest lover in America... FACT
Fact: I am faster than 80% of all snakes.

[dj_stouty]

I hope he left a floater in the washroom.

An upper-decker? lmao

[shally]

this thread is now officially circling the bowl...

[Keino]

Now, a concussion = calf strain? Keeping riding that Springs train.

Nope. Didn't say that. What I said was a CB need his legs to cover WRs, and that Team doctors would not let a Concussed player re-enter the game


All of this is at least playing "fast and loose" with the truth, which is not necessarily an outright lie. And he does.

How about Springs told his teammates "Goodbye. It's been good to know you" (paraphrasing) in the locker room during the 2006 season (which is documented) and then in an interview saying that he didn't? Or the fact that Joe Gibbs said that he tried to call Springs and let messages for him during the 2007 offseason and Springs saying that he didn't receive them? Or what about Springs being the likeliest candidate to be Deepskin in the 2007 WaPo expose article, which he denies, as well?



Or, more recently, how about telling Zorn you're going to see your father in the hospital but neglecting to tell him that you'd be kicking it at the home of a division opponent during the season before you eventually made your way over to see your father? Don't you think that Zorn would've liked to have known that beforehand? If nothing else, that's a mistruth by virtue of omission.

Look, there's no getting into this. You like Springs, I get it. And if it was just one thing, I wouldn't think twice about it. If Smoot or Rogers said they were hurt, I wouldn't have questioned it for a nanosecond. But there's a mosiac of these things that are hanging around Springs. Not to mention the fact that Springs is probably the most selfish person on this team.

In this climate -- that he created -- I don't think it is unreasonable to [not] take [everything] he says as 100% unquestionable truth.

[edit]

Yes I like Springs, but as a player, but you are implying here that he made up his injury so as not to play against the Cowboys and you have bought into a few unsubstantiated claims Such as "Deepskin".

I agree that he is selfish etc. but I don't agree with what You are alleging here and given his performance, I am really wondering how you can seriously write some of these things.

Which is irrelevant to what I said in this thread.

You said he Held out. He did not hold out. The thread proves you are mistaken about him holding out and is 100% relevant to that claim.

Please don't quote words that I didn't say. It just weakens your argument because it either means that you have poor punctuation skills (and shouldn't be taken seriously) or you are mischaracterizing what another person said (and shouldn't be taken seriously).

I didn't quote you at all, I summarized briefly what was discussed in that thread. Nothing this quote addresses is something I have attributed to you. I didn't mischaracterize anything.



Again, not what I said. I think you're Springs sycophanatacism is getting the better of you.

You will have to forgive me for thinking "History of playing fast and loose with the truth" and "history of lies" is synonymous. Perhaps you can make a distinction as to how one is more dishonest than the other......

And if we had debated that and it was in another thread on this forum, I wouldn't want to go through all of that again either.

Only you have asserted something that was patently false in this thread that related back to the other thread. The guy never held out as you assert right here. (http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=1146671&postcount=17)

[BurgundyNGold]

Nope. Didn't say that. What I said was a CB need his legs to cover WRs, and that Team doctors would not let a Concussed player re-enter the game
And a player doesn't need his head? I have little doubt that Smoot had head trauma. All you had to do was look into his eyes as he came off the field.

As for Springs, it was a big game against Dallass, in Dallass. It CBs and skill position players can come back in after getting treated for cramps, charlie horses and other minor leg injuries, and another CB can come back in after suffering head trauma, I tend to think that a CB can come back in after straining his calf muscle, if that's all he did.

Yes I like Springs, but as a player, but you are implying here that he made up his injury so as not to play against the Cowboys and you have bought into a few unsubstantiated claims Such as "Deepskin".
I'm not saying he made up an injury. Given his selfish history (of which the Deepskin allegations is just one aspect) and the relative minor aspects of said injury, I'm questioning his desire and willingness to come back into the game if he could have.

I agree that he is selfish etc. but I don't agree with what You are alleging here and given his performance, I am really wondering how you can seriously write some of these things.
I give him his props for the first half. He looked 5 years younger out there. He was amazing. However, I have doubts about his veracity and heart which led me to wonder if he could have come back in but elected to selfishly play it safe.

You said he Held out. He did not hold out. The thread proves you are mistaken about him holding out and is 100% relevant to that claim.
In this thread, I did not refer to my beliefs he was holding out, so your bringing this up is irrelevant. I did, however, refer to Springs' playing fast and loose with the truth, which was also in that thread.

I didn't quote you at all, I summarized briefly what was discussed in that thread. Nothing this quote addresses is something I have attributed to you. I didn't mischaracterize anything.
When you several times refer to my statements and then quote the word "lie" in attribute to them, you are not only misquoting me but you are also mischaracterizing my argument.

You will have to forgive me for thinking "History of playing fast and loose with the truth" and "history of lies" is synonymous. Perhaps you can make a distinction as to how one is more dishonest than the other......
Lying is [directly contradicting the truth]. Playing fast and loose with the truth is a larger set [which includes lying], being misleading, [trading in] half truths, relevant omissions, navigating around the truth [and general dishonesty]. Perjurers lie while politicians play fast and loose with the truth. Both are dishonest.

Only you have asserted something that was patently false in this thread that related back to the other thread. The guy never held out as you assert right here. (http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=1146671&postcount=17)
Again, the examples of Springs playing fast and loose with the truth is posted in that thread. I used those posts to establish why I think that about Springs. My perceptions in that thread regarding holdout has no bearing here.

[edit]

[jaylen]

this thread is now officially circling the bowl...

exactly

I doubt Springs plays he's not one to play with an injury. Not a particularly tough guy.

[OCSkinzFan]

Hey BNG what's up?

I don't want to jump in where I shouldn't, but I don't think you're recognizing what a calf strain can mean. A serious calf strain can prevent a player from pushing off on their toe (necessary for running). It's not like you can will a calf to be able to contract quickly after a strain. For Springs to go out there and not be able to run would have been irresponsible.

Getting a serious bell ringing is something that EVERY player gets at one point or another. Once you get the cobwebs cleared you feel 100%. Physically you can do whatever you could do before said bell was rung. football players and boxers clear the webs and fight on every game/fight.

Long term effects of multiple concussions is another matter. They can, and often do, add up with very serious consequences.

[BurgundyNGold]

Hey BNG what's up?
Hey, good to see you.

I don't want to jump in where I shouldn't, but I don't think you're recognizing what a calf strain can mean. A serious calf strain can prevent a player from pushing off on their toe (necessary for running). It's not like you can will a calf to be able to contract quickly after a strain. For Springs to go out there and not be able to run would have been irresponsible.
That may be the case. Of course, that depends on the severity of the injury too. We'll see how severe it is next week, if Springs plays.

The only point I'm trying to make is that, if nothing else, Springs has shown that he's four things: immensely talented, a china doll, a primadonna and of questionable honesty. I don't doubt that he got hurt: see china doll. What I had a slight question in my mind about, given the last two things about Springs, was whether he would go back in if he could. I can't recall seeing that out of him.

If it turns out that he plays without problems next week, that'll just make me wonder that much more if he could've finished out the game against Dallass when we REALLY needed him to be out there. If the injury turns out to be more severe than reported, well, that'll pretty much answer the questions that little voice in my head had on Sunday afternoon.

Getting a serious bell ringing is something that EVERY player gets at one point or another. Once you get the cobwebs cleared you feel 100%. Physically you can do whatever you could do before said bell was rung. football players and boxers clear the webs and fight on every game/fight.
Yeah, Manusky used to call it "mush head", lol.

Long term effects of multiple concussions is another matter. They can, and often do, add up with very serious consequences.
Agreed. And these days, you can't be too careful. I was just illustrating that Smooty -- who has played through multiple injuries including a cracked sternum (ouch) -- went back into the game. I was proud of him for giving it all for the team.

[OCSkinzFan]

Hey, good to see you.


That may be the case. Of course, that depends on the severity of the injury too. We'll see how severe it is next week, if Springs plays.

The only point I'm trying to make is that, if nothing else, Springs has shown that he's four things: immensely talented, a china doll, a primadonna and of questionable honesty. I don't doubt that he got hurt: see china doll. What I had a slight question in my mind about, given the last two things about Springs, was whether he would go back in if he could. I can't recall seeing that out of him.

If it turns out that he plays without problems next week, that'll just make me wonder that much more if he could've finished out the game against Dallass when we REALLY needed him to be out there. If the injury turns out to be more severe than reported, well, that'll pretty much answer the questions that little voice in my head had on Sunday afternoon.


Yeah, Manusky used to call it "mush head", lol.


Agreed. And these days, you can't be too careful. I was just illustrating that Smooty -- who has played through multiple injuries including a cracked sternum (ouch) -- went back into the game. I was proud of him for giving it all for the team.

Yea, I don't see Springs as the type to try to play through an injury either, but at this point in his career he needs to be careful about making something worse by trying to keep playing. He's by far our best CB whan healthy; it would be great if he could stay that way.

We're seriously going to need him as close to 100% as he can be for Philly.

On a different note on toughness. Remember the game when Smoot literally crawled off the field so we wouldn't have to call a time out? (His fist tenure here) Smoot is one tough dude.

[BurgundyNGold]

Yea, I don't see Springs as the type to try to play through an injury either, but at this point in his career he needs to be careful about making something worse by trying to keep playing. He's by far our best CB whan healthy; it would be great if he could stay that way.

We're seriously going to need him as close to 100% as he can be for Philly.

On a different note on toughness. Remember the game when Smoot literally crawled off the field so we wouldn't have to call a time out? (His fist tenure here) Smoot is one tough dude.
Yep. And he played with a separated shoulder for a few games during that Marvin Lewis year. He might be sleight but that kid has heart.

[OCSkinzFan]

Yep. And he played with a separated shoulder for a few games during that Marvin Lewis year. He might be sleight but that kid has heart.

Didn't the skins name an award after him for toughness?

Or was it for talkin smack with so many Southern idioms that no one knows what you're talkin 'bout? He talks more smack 'en a one legged man winnin a but kickin contest.

[OCSkinzFan]

Here it is, The Fred “Silky Johnson” Smoot Award:

A good Smoot LINK (http://www.hobotrashcan.com/2007/08/02/one-on-one-with-fred-smoot/)

I still don't know what the award is- aside from an inside joke.

[BurgundyNGold]

Here it is, The Fred “Silky Johnson” Smoot Award:

A good Smoot LINK (http://www.hobotrashcan.com/2007/08/02/one-on-one-with-fred-smoot/)

I still don't know what the award is- aside from an inside joke.
Me either, but that guy has enough personality for 3 people, lol.

[silverspring]

I can't believe there is 5 pages complaining about springs here. So what if he hung out with TO after the game. What do you think visiting hours are all night? Would it have made you feel better if he slept in the hospital?

And this whole springs isn't tough enough thing. Springs has always had injury issues. He is in the mold of a track star and like santana moss his legs are fragile. But he just played a great game shutting down TO for a full half and that just isn't enough. I will never understand all the springs hate.

[shally]

I can't believe there is 5 pages complaining about springs here. So what if he hung out with TO after the game. What do you think visiting hours are all night? Would it have made you feel better if he slept in the hospital?

And this whole springs isn't tough enough thing. Springs has always had injury issues. He is in the mold of a track star and like santana moss his legs are fragile. But he just played a great game shutting down TO for a full half and that just isn't enough. I will never understand all the springs hate.

because if you build a defense around him and he goes out, it makes the team vulnerable.. it would be akin to JC or portis going down with regularity, and what it would do to continuity of the offense (and PLEASE dont go and say that the offense is the same with Betts...)

[silverspring]

because if you build a defense around him and he goes out, it makes the team vulnerable.. it would be akin to JC or portis going down with regularity, and what it would do to continuity of the offense (and PLEASE dont go and say that the offense is the same with Betts...)

Why on earth would you build a defense around a guy that has injury issues?
This isn't springs fault. We got the exact springs we paid for. He balances pro-bowl like play with injury issues, which is exactly what he did for years in seattle. This was no secret.
To be more precise, we have built a defense around a constantly injured secondary between springs, smoot and rogers.

And we do have the same exact situation on offense right now, moss has very similar injury issues to springs. If moss makes it through a season with no injuries i will be shocked.

[BurgundyNGold]

Why on earth would you build a defense around a guy that has injury issues?
This isn't springs fault. We got the exact springs we paid for. He balances pro-bowl like play with injury issues, which is exactly what he did for years in seattle. This was no secret.
Pro-bowl "like" play? Springs made 1 pro bowl in Seattle (1998 and there could be an argument made that was because of his draft status) and 1 in 2004 as a 3rd alternate. I think it's a bit of a push to consider his play pro bowl quality in general. The first half of that Dallass game sure was, though.

To be more precise, we have built a defense around a constantly injured secondary between springs, smoot and rogers.
That's accurate. But Smoot and Rogers play hurt.

And we do have the same exact situation on offense right now, moss has very similar injury issues to springs. If moss makes it through a season with no injuries i will be shocked.
That's also true. Both Springs and Moss are brittle. Moss will sit if he so much as tweaks a hammy.

[Keino]

And a player doesn't need his head? I have little doubt that Smoot had head trauma. All you had to do was look into his eyes as he came off the field.

As for Springs, it was a big game against Dallass, in Dallass. It CBs and skill position players can come back in after getting treated for cramps, charlie horses and other minor leg injuries, and another CB can come back in after suffering head trauma, I tend to think that a CB can come back in after straining his calf muscle, if that's all he did.


I'm not saying he made up an injury. Given his selfish history (of which the Deepskin allegations is just one aspect) and the relative minor aspects of said injury, I'm questioning his desire and willingness to come back into the game if he could have.


I give him his props for the first half. He looked 5 years younger out there. He was amazing. However, I have doubts about his veracity and heart which led me to wonder if he could have come back in but elected to selfishly play it safe.


In this thread, I did not refer to my beliefs he was holding out, so your bringing this up is irrelevant. I did, however, refer to Springs' playing fast and loose with the truth, which was also in that thread.


When you several times refer to my statements and then quote the word "lie" in attribute to them, you are not only misquoting me but you are also mischaracterizing my argument.


Lying is [directly contradicting the truth]. Playing fast and loose with the truth is a larger set [which includes lying], being misleading, [trading in] half truths, relevant omissions, navigating around the truth [and general dishonesty]. Perjurers lie while politicians play fast and loose with the truth. Both are dishonest.


Again, the examples of Springs playing fast and loose with the truth is posted in that thread. I used those posts to establish why I think that about Springs. My perceptions in that thread regarding holdout has no bearing here.

[edit]



You do realize that my link in the post you are responding to links directly to your post in this very thread in which you said Springs held out, right? You did in fact say that he held out in post #17. It is the only reason I kept harping on it, because like you have above, you later claimed to not say it. I can grant that you may have mis-spoke, but at least acknowledge it first. Post #17. This thread. You claim that Springs held out last year. You introduced it and therefore my response showing that not to be the case is completely relevant. Post # 17. Seriously. Im not lying or even playing fast and loose with the truth.

Look, Fred Smoot is tougher than he appears. But again, lets not act like he returned from a leg injury in a position that requires keeping pace with people who run all day. He took a blow and saw stars for a few minutes. It happens to anyone who straps up a helmet and shoulder pads. People are expected to play through that sort of "injury". I'll never forget seeing stars after making a tackle against McNamara, and I raised my hand and asked for a blow and the coach told me "no". I literally saw stars and am thankful that for the next few plays, nothing came my way. Straining a Calf muscle, while sounding mild is a hampering injury and a position that requires a ton of running, and stop-go cutting like CB cannot play through a calf injury.

As for the "Fast and loose with the truth", I don't necessarily agree with your parsing of it all, as I think at the end of the day lying and "Fast and Loose" are different ways of saying "Dishonest". It wasn't my intent to mis-characterize your position with my paraphrase. I didn't see a significant distinction in the two phrases. You do, so I apologize and amend all of my comments from "Lying" to "Playing fast and loose with the truth" so as not to mis-quote you.

[shally]

Why on earth would you build a defense around a guy that has injury issues?
This isn't springs fault. We got the exact springs we paid for. He balances pro-bowl like play with injury issues, which is exactly what he did for years in seattle. This was no secret.
To be more precise, we have built a defense around a constantly injured secondary between springs, smoot and rogers.

And we do have the same exact situation on offense right now, moss has very similar injury issues to springs. If moss makes it through a season with no injuries i will be shocked.

that is the nature of playing cornerback in the nfl.. those guys are simply asked to do so much, that a lot of them get injured.. look at the eagles corners.. or even the giant corners..

it is a tough, tough position to play. when healthy, few corners are better than
springs. not many could have neutralized TO the way he did.. that is why we built a defense around him..

[silverspring]

Pro-bowl "like" play? Springs made 1 pro bowl in Seattle (1998 and there could be an argument made that was because of his draft status) and 1 in 2004 as a 3rd alternate. I think it's a bit of a push to consider his play pro bowl quality in general. The first half of that Dallass game sure was, though.

I will never understand how he didn't make the pro-bowl in 2004 he had like 5 interceptions and 5 sacks and just played great. When he has been healthy I think he has been an elite corner, the healthy part is an issue. Last year he was pretty damn solid. He had some hiccups but most qbs wouldn't even throw the ball on his side of the field.

No doubt it would be nice if he was a little tougher when it comes to being nicked up. I do understand the precautionary attitude towards his injuries considering his injury history. But at least when he is on the field he gives a 100%, you surely couldn't portray him as someone that shies away from contact.

If it takes him sitting out a game or a half here and there to get through the season then that might just be the safest route. Even last year he did not start at the beginning of the season because they were hoping to rest him early so he would be available all season. It seemed to work.

So in the end I just don't see why he should be getting so much flac for this, again i will point out that he didn't suddenly develop an injury prone issue, this was well known when we signed him.

[smoak]

I find it annoying, but a fact of life in the age of free agency...

[silverspring]

that is the nature of playing cornerback in the nfl.. those guys are simply asked to do so much, that a lot of them get injured.. look at the eagles corners.. or even the giant corners..

it is a tough, tough position to play. when healthy, few corners are better than
springs. not many could have neutralized TO the way he did.. that is why we built a defense around him..

I understand your point, and it is frustrating to me as well, but i think this isn't a reason to be so hard on springs himself. If he was a young corner i could see the expectations of him playing through this stuff being a bit higher, but he isn't. And frankly we really don't know the extent of these injuries, maybe they aren't catastrophic but if they affect his speed or push off ability then he is useless anyways. I have a hard time believing that he would still be sitting, if the training staff told him that he was fine.

[Keino]

I will never understand how he didn't make the pro-bowl in 2004 he had like 5 interceptions and 5 sacks and just played great. When he has been healthy I think he has been an elite corner, the healthy part is an issue. Last year he was pretty damn solid. He had some hiccups but most qbs wouldn't even throw the ball on his side of the field.

No doubt it would be nice if he was a little tougher when it comes to being nicked up. I do understand the precautionary attitude towards his injuries considering his injury history. But at least when he is on the field he gives a 100%, you surely couldn't portray him as someone that shies away from contact.

If it takes him sitting out a game or a half here and there to get through the season then that might just be the safest route. Even last year he did not start at the beginning of the season because they were hoping to rest him early so he would be available all season. It seemed to work.

So in the end I just don't see why he should be getting so much flac for this, again i will point out that he didn't suddenly develop an injury prone issue, this was well known when we signed him.

I agree with this word for word.

[skinsfan36]

not a big deal two things to take from the article
-mw is obviously a liabilty hes done nothing actually he detramental to the team(not on purpose) by kicking springs in the chin(joking)
-he seems to be ready for the philly game

[RedskinRyan]

As long as when on the field they are enemies, they're okay.

[BurgundyNGold]

You do realize that my link in the post you are responding to links directly to your post in this very thread in which you said Springs held out, right? You did in fact say that he held out in post #17. It is the only reason I kept harping on it, because like you have above, you later claimed to not say it. I can grant that you may have mis-spoke, but at least acknowledge it first. Post #17. This thread. You claim that Springs held out last year. You introduced it and therefore my response showing that not to be the case is completely relevant. Post # 17. Seriously. Im not lying or even playing fast and loose with the truth.
In that post, I was merely trying to recall the thread that we had the discussion about Springs' history of playing fast and loose with the truth. I did not mean to imply that he was holding out last year and I certainly did not mean to introduce this red herring that continues to pointlessly obscure the discussion.

Just because that thread also contains discussions about Springs' perceived holding out doesn't mean that I was referring to that. If someone refers to the Bible in reference to Genesis, it does not mean that they are talking about Jonah and the whale or Jesus turning water into wine just because they are contained in the same literary work.

Look, Fred Smoot is tougher than he appears. But again, lets not act like he returned from a leg injury in a position that requires keeping pace with people who run all day. He took a blow and saw stars for a few minutes. It happens to anyone who straps up a helmet and shoulder pads. People are expected to play through that sort of "injury". I'll never forget seeing stars after making a tackle against McNamara, and I raised my hand and asked for a blow and the coach told me "no". I literally saw stars and am thankful that for the next few plays, nothing came my way. Straining a Calf muscle, while sounding mild is a hampering injury and a position that requires a ton of running, and stop-go cutting like CB cannot play through a calf injury.
If you are allowed to minimize the effects of a head injury on a player, I am fully within my rights to equally minimize a calf strain -- especially given that we don't know the extent of said injury.

As for the "Fast and loose with the truth", I don't necessarily agree with your parsing of it all, as I think at the end of the day lying and "Fast and Loose" are different ways of saying "Dishonest". It wasn't my intent to mis-characterize your position with my paraphrase. I didn't see a significant distinction in the two phrases. You do, so I apologize and amend all of my comments from "Lying" to "Playing fast and loose with the truth" so as not to mis-quote you.
I can agree that lying and "playing fast and loose with the truth" are both aspects of dishonety. Obviously, straight up lying is worse than telling a half truth but they are different humps on the same camel. At a minimum, I think that Springs is dishonest.

It's that dishonesty, coupled with his selfishness and penchant for primadonna tactics that made me somewhat question during the game whether Spring could come back in but simply chose not to. This feeling was exacerbated by the facts that a) It was a rivalry game against hated Dallass, b) Springs had virtually shut down TO to that point and we needed him doing that, and c) Smooty found a way to come back in after suffering head trauma.

Obviously, I have no direct evidence to support this particular concern about Springs possibly being able to copme back in; it's just my personal feeling that perhaps he could and should have. However, as I pointed out, if Springs did not have a history of primadonna behavior and of being dishonest (or at least disingenuous), I would not have had any such feeling or concern in the first place.

[BurgundyNGold]

As long as when on the field they are enemies, they're okay.
Sorry, but that's not the Washington-Dallass rivalry that I know, that I grew up with or that I am comfortable accepting on any level.

"Die you Dallass dogs! Die!!!", lol.

[RedskinsDave]

Springs is the single-most underrated player in the NFL. He is also a little soft IMO. That said, I don't like that he's hanging out with T.O. but these guys couldn't care less about the rivalry, at least most of them. I sure do miss the days when both sides really hated each other.

[Keino]

In that post, I was merely trying to recall the thread that we had the discussion about Springs' history of playing fast and loose with the truth. I did not mean to imply that he was holding out last year and I certainly did not mean to introduce this red herring that continues to pointlessly obscure the discussion.

Just because that thread also contains discussions about Springs' perceived holding out doesn't mean that I was referring to that. If someone refers to the Bible in reference to Genesis, it does not mean that they are talking about Jonah and the whale or Jesus turning water into wine just because they are contained in the same literary work.


Fair enough, but understand, that is what set me off on this tangent. When I suggested that you were remembering it wrong on that point you asserted that you were not. I agree it is not central to this discussion, but again, once the words "held out" were introduced, it became relevant because "held out" was not remotely accurate.


If you are allowed to minimize the effects of a head injury on a player, I am fully within my rights to equally minimize a calf strain -- especially given that we don't know the extent of said injury.

Only I am not minimizing the injury. With the emphasis on Controlling head trauma in the league, there is No way it is humanly possible that the Doctors would let Smoot go back into the game if he had serious head trauma. You are, in effect, holding Springs and Smoot to different standards here.

We can reasonably assume, based on his reappearance, that Smoot's cobwebs were exactly how OC and I portray them. He saw stars (which is head trauma, but to a minimum degree) took a play or 2 off and was good to go. Had he exhibited any other characteristics of Concussion (Vomitting, dizziness, incoherence etc.) we would not have seen him in the game again. By the same token, CBs need their legs, more than any other part of their body. Notice Springs sat out AFTER giving up the 3rd Quarter TD. I think he tried to go, and then realized he was hurting his team by staying in, so sat it out. With Rogers flat out balling this season, I am very much OK with him doing that. I don't think it's a question of heart/desire/love for team as you do.



I can agree that lying and "playing fast and loose with the truth" are both aspects of dishonety. Obviously, straight up lying is worse than telling a half truth but they are different humps on the same camel. At a minimum, I think that Springs is dishonest.

This one issue where I see things in Black and White. I think Honesty/Truth are absolute concepts. I don't think a half-truth is any different from a straight-up lie, but that's just me. A lie of Commission is no different from a lie of Omission in my view.



It's that dishonesty, coupled with his selfishness and penchant for primadonna tactics that made me somewhat question during the game whether Spring could come back in but simply chose not to. This feeling was exacerbated by the facts that a) It was a rivalry game against hated Dallass, b) Springs had virtually shut down TO to that point and we needed him doing that, and c) Smooty found a way to come back in after suffering head trauma.

I can see this, but it's not a conclusion I would draw. I think we disagree on the extent of his dishonesty, but not so much on his selfishness.

Obviously, I have no direct evidence to support this particular concern about Springs possibly being able to copme back in; it's just my personal feeling that perhaps he could and should have. However, as I pointed out, if Springs did not have a history of primadonna behavior and of being dishonest (or at least disingenuous), I would not have had any such feeling or concern in the first place.


See I view Springs as a guy who has a lot of pride on the field. I agree that he doesn't fight through injury, but he has always been that guy. I don't see him sitting it out, in the middle of one of the best games of his career if he could actually go.

[Moe]

springs obviously takes care of himself and his career first and foremost...maybe some of that is watching how his father was ruined at an early age and has aged far beyond many of his cohorts...???

I recall him alluding to his father (and his generation of players) during the offseason prior to last year as part of his reason for not being interesting in renegotiating his contract. He made it clear that he was taking care of himself when it came to the business side of his career as a means of avoiding any similar issues.

[BurgundyNGold]

Only I am not minimizing the injury. With the emphasis on Controlling head trauma in the league, there is No way it is humanly possible that the Doctors would let Smoot go back into the game if he had serious head trauma. You are, in effect, holding Springs and Smoot to different standards here.

We can reasonably assume, based on his reappearance, that Smoot's cobwebs were exactly how OC and I portray them. He saw stars (which is head trauma, but to a minimum degree) took a play or 2 off and was good to go. Had he exhibited any other characteristics of Concussion (Vomitting, dizziness, incoherence etc.) we would not have seen him in the game again. By the same token, CBs need their legs, more than any other part of their body.
Do we know that trainers held Springs out? Do we know that a doctor or trainer did not try to hold Smooty out? I can say with certainty that Smooty has disregarded medical opinions in the past to get back out there to compete. I cannot say the same for Springs. In fact, Springs was inactive for Gints game for, hell, who knows why. Nobody knew he was not going to start until gametime. That's the distinction.

Notice Springs sat out AFTER giving up the 3rd Quarter TD. I think he tried to go, and then realized he was hurting his team by staying in, so sat it out. With Rogers flat out balling this season, I am very much OK with him doing that. I don't think it's a question of heart/desire/love for team as you do.
I guess we see different sides of the same coin. When I see TO get his TD and Springs then leave the game, I'm wondering how much of that is injury and how much of that is diva pride.

This one issue where I see things in Black and White. I think Honesty/Truth are absolute concepts. I don't think a half-truth is any different from a straight-up lie, but that's just me. A lie of Commission is no different from a lie of Omission in my view.
Then, by your definition, Springs is a demonstrated liar. I merely say that he plays fast and loose with the truth.

I can see this, but it's not a conclusion I would draw. I think we disagree on the extent of his dishonesty, but not so much on his selfishness.
By your own stadards above, a little dishonest is all dishonest. I think we agree more than you may have thought when we started this discussion.

See I view Springs as a guy who has a lot of pride on the field. I agree that he doesn't fight through injury, but he has always been that guy. I don't see him sitting it out, in the middle of one of the best games of his career if he could actually go.
I don't think you can have a whole lot of pride or heart if you consistently choose to sit over playing, regardless of severity of injury and especially in big games.

As part of a team, Smooty is always there for them. If there is any way that he can go, he goes. To me, what Smooty and Rogers do when they choose to put it on the line for the team is the epitome of pride. They've got the heart to always want to comete and to not let their teammates down. Springs does not have that. He is Springs first, so the team cannot truly count on him in the end. That's why he is not an elite CB and never will be.

[Keino]

Do we know that trainers held Springs out? Do we know that a doctor or trainer did not try to hold Smooty out? I can say with certainty that Smooty has disregarded medical opinions in the past to get back out there to compete. I cannot say the same for Springs. In fact, Springs was inactive for Gints game for, hell, who knows why. Nobody knew he was not going to start until gametime. That's the distinction.

Again, I am looking at the league-wide mandate to err on the side of caution when it comes to head trauma. I think we can be pretty certain that the Docs did not try to hold him out. Similarly, I think the Docs also left it up to Springs


I guess we see different sides of the same coin. When I see TO get his TD and Springs then leave the game, I'm wondering how much of that is injury and how much of that is diva pride.

Well I specifically saw him getting it treated before that series, so I am inclined to think that he tried, saw it wouldn't work and came out. I am sure some Diva pride played into it, however, the nature of the CB position is to get beat on occasion....outside of QB, the CB has to be the most forgetful person on the football field.


Then, by your definition, Springs is a demonstrated liar. I merely say that he plays fast and loose with the truth.

By your own standards above, a little dishonest is all dishonest. I think we agree more than you may have thought when we started this discussion.

This is where we disagree. You have made the allegation of lying in the past, but Im not so sure he was lying. If he says he wasn't "Deepskin" how can you attirbute this statement as a lie, absent proof? If he says he didn't get Gibbs' messages (Perhaps on purpose, but didn't get them) how is it that he can be lying about that without some proof. Your claims of dishonesty are much more perception than hard cold fact. This is the part where you will accuse me of some blind devotion, but I can assure you that this is not the case.

I think the other criticisms (Selfishness, not being available to your coach etc.) are all valid and I can understand them and agree with them. I am just not convinced he was lying in some specific instances, and then we get back into re-hashing the old thread.



I don't think you can have a whole lot of pride or heart if you consistently choose to sit over playing, regardless of severity of injury and especially in big games.

Completely disagree with this. If you have pride in your play, and a minor injury effects your play, your pride will have you sit rather than play at less than 100% effectiveness.

As part of a team, Smooty is always there for them. If there is any way that he can go, he goes. To me, what Smooty and Rogers do when they choose to put it on the line for the team is the epitome of pride. They've got the heart to always want to comete and to not let their teammates down. Springs does not have that. He is Springs first, so the team cannot truly count on him in the end. That's why he is not an elite CB and never will be.

I can't disagree with this, however, when on the field, Springs is by FAR the best CB on the team.

[BurgundyNGold]

Again, I am looking at the league-wide mandate to err on the side of caution when it comes to head trauma. I think we can be pretty certain that the Docs did not try to hold him out.
These two statements are at odds with one another. If the league is going to err on the side of caution for head trauma, then they *would* have tried to hold him out.

Similarly, I think the Docs also left it up to Springs
Which is what I thought too. And, given the past, Springs would rather sit than play in these circumstances, which led me to ask if he weas doing that in the Dallass game.

Well I specifically saw him getting it treated before that series, so I am inclined to think that he tried, saw it wouldn't work and came out. I am sure some Diva pride played into it, however, the nature of the CB position is to get beat on occasion....outside of QB, the CB has to be the most forgetful person on the football field.
Yeag, that's a fuzzy area. I'm not sure what goes through Springs' mind. I can opnly go off of the histroy that we know about him in pain/injury circumstances.

This is where we disagree. You have made the allegation of lying in the past, but Im not so sure he was lying. If he says he wasn't "Deepskin" how can you attirbute this statement as a lie, absent proof? If he says he didn't get Gibbs' messages (Perhaps on purpose, but didn't get them) how is it that he can be lying about that without some proof. Your claims of dishonesty are much more perception than hard cold fact. This is the part where you will accuse me of some blind devotion, but I can assure you that this is not the case.
Again, you're applying your definition of dishonesty to mine. We've established they're not the same. But, to indulge you, if nothing else I consider when there are print reports that say that he told his teammates goodbye and that it was nice knowing them during the season and then him telling another print reporter in an interview after the fact that he did not say that, somebody is lying. I doubt it is the reporter(s) whose job(s) it is to merely report facts.

I think the other criticisms (Selfishness, not being available to your coach etc.) are all valid and I can understand them and agree with them. I am just not convinced he was lying in some specific instances, and then we get back into re-hashing the old thread.
Not always lying, because it cannot always be proven. However, on the Gibbs deal and the locker room thing, I think, at a minimum, he is being dishonest.

Completely disagree with this. If you have pride in your play, and a minor injury effects your play, your pride will have you sit rather than play at less than 100% effectiveness.
No, That's diva talk. Proud ballers are competitors by nature, not selective participants.

I can't disagree with this, however, when on the field, Springs is by FAR the best CB on the team.
Agreed.

[Keino]

These two statements are at odds with one another. If the league is going to err on the side of caution for head trauma, then they *would* have tried to hold him out.

Exactly why I think the injury wasn't nearly what you were portraying.




Again, you're applying your definition of dishonesty to mine. We've established they're not the same. But, to indulge you, if nothing else I consider when there are print reports that say that he told his teammates goodbye and that it was nice knowing them during the season and then him telling another print reporter in an interview after the fact that he did not say that, somebody is lying. I doubt it is the reporter(s) whose job(s) it is to merely report facts.

Now see this again where we disagree. Remember the reporter never sourced this report and I seem to remember it being after the final game of season. I could be remembering it wrong, as I don't care enough (at the moment while on clock) to go look. I just don't accept it as a fact that Springs was dishonest here, when the very nature of the issue forces you to choose between 2 equally plausible explanations, while realizing that controversy sells newspapers.


Not always lying, because it cannot always be proven. However, on the Gibbs deal and the locker room thing, I think, at a minimum, he is being dishonest.

The only point on which I will acknowledge dishonesty is on the Gibbs point. I find it hard to believe he didn't get the messages, but rather he intentionally avoided getting them......this would be a lie of omission based on how I view it. Saying "I didn't get them" tells half the story.


No, That's diva talk. Proud ballers are competitors by nature, not selective participants.

I think you are confusing Team Pride (Smoot, Rogers) with Individual pride (TO, Springs). In fact you are correct. It is Diva talk, and divas are nothing if not Proud. if pain is limiting ones ability to compete, the one with individual pride (the one who doesn't want to look bad) sits it out. The one with Team Pride is going to lay it on the line, regardless. Ronnie Lott chopping off his pinky rather than come out comes to mind.

[shally]

just seen today at redskin insiders at the WaPo.. shawn springs was quoted as saying he will play against the eagles and wont miss NFC east games

he is expected to be matched against reggie brown, leaving jackson to rogers...

just thinking that because of his speed, maybe torrence might match up well against jackson ??

[guess88]

just seen today at redskin insiders at the WaPo.. shawn springs was quoted as saying he will play against the eagles and wont miss NFC east games

he is expected to be matched against reggie brown, leaving jackson to rogers...

just thinking that because of his speed, maybe torrence might match up well against jackson ??

Maybe they wanna teach Jackson what being jammed at the line is like? Los is good at man coverage, and while Jackson is probably faster, I'm sure he'll have help overtop. Could simply be a matter of #1 or 2 receiver matched up with #1 or 2 corner. Or maybe we plan to jam, and blitz. I'm sure Blache's seen a lot of tape... there's weaknesses in the Eagles Oline for sure.

[BurgundyNGold]

Exactly why I think the injury wasn't nearly what you were portraying.
We are not going to come to an understanding on this.

Now see this again where we disagree. Remember the reporter never sourced this report and I seem to remember it being after the final game of season. I could be remembering it wrong, as I don't care enough (at the moment while on clock) to go look. I just don't accept it as a fact that Springs was dishonest here, when the very nature of the issue forces you to choose between 2 equally plausible explanations, while realizing that controversy sells newspapers.
I don't remember it that way and I don't think that a reporter (I think it was Howard Bryant at the WaPo) would lie in a article. And it was definitely during the season. Later, Springs would say in another article that he never said those things. But I, like you, are too lazy to go sifting through news articles from 2 years ago, lol.

The only point on which I will acknowledge dishonesty is on the Gibbs point. I find it hard to believe he didn't get the messages, but rather he intentionally avoided getting them......this would be a lie of omission based on how I view it. Saying "I didn't get them" tells half the story.
I think he either avoided getting the messages or just ignored them. In either case, you are right in how you perceive the dishonesty.

For the record, if it was just one questionable thing about dishonesty, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. And, by themselves, none of these things amount to much more than a mole hill. But when you add up 2 or 3 or more such incidents, it does weigh on someone's credibility somewhat. If these incidents had never occurred, the thought never would have crossed my mind that Springs would be sitting if he could play. But they occurred and, as a result, I had the thought.

I think you are confusing Team Pride (Smoot, Rogers) with Individual pride (TO, Springs). In fact you are correct. It is Diva talk, and divas are nothing if not Proud. if pain is limiting ones ability to compete, the one with individual pride (the one who doesn't want to look bad) sits it out. The one with Team Pride is going to lay it on the line, regardless. Ronnie Lott chopping off his pinky rather than come out comes to mind.
I can see your point, but I don't think that the pride that drives you to compete for the team can exist without the individual pride being in place. There is no doubt that Michael Jordan was a bit of a diva. But he also had team pride because of -- not alongside of -- his personal pride and drive to compete. Football is a team sport, so that personal pride has to translate into team pride. If it doesn't, by definition, you're a diva and not a very reliable teammate. If nothing else I think TO and, to a far lesser extent, Shawn Springs illustrate that point rather well.

I wonder how they work the mirror schedule when Springs stays over at To's place, lol?

[Keino]

We are not going to come to an understanding on this.

Agreed


I don't remember it that way and I don't think that a reporter (I think it was Howard Bryant at the WaPo) would lie in a article. And it was definitely during the season. Later, Springs would say in another article that he never said those things. But I, like you, are too lazy to go sifting through news articles from 2 years ago, lol.

Lets not call it laziness. Lets call it "Having higher priorities with the time we have". LOL





I can see your point, but I don't think that the pride that drives you to compete for the team can exist without the individual pride being in place. There is no doubt that Michael Jordan was a bit of a diva. But he also had team pride because of -- not alongside of -- his personal pride and drive to compete. Football is a team sport, so that personal pride has to translate into team pride. If it doesn't, by definition, you're a diva and not a very reliable teammate. If nothing else I think TO and, to a far lesser extent, Shawn Springs illustrate that point rather well.

I wonder how they work the mirror schedule when Springs stays over at To's place, lol?


Well I think MJ was exceptional in that he was driven from both angles. Not many are.

I do agree that TO and Springs are cut from the same cloth, though one is FAR more extreme than the other.

[shally]

Maybe they wanna teach Jackson what being jammed at the line is like? Los is good at man coverage, and while Jackson is probably faster, I'm sure he'll have help overtop. Could simply be a matter of #1 or 2 receiver matched up with #1 or 2 corner. Or maybe we plan to jam, and blitz. I'm sure Blache's seen a lot of tape... there's weaknesses in the Eagles Oline for sure.

runyon is still a load, but without andrews they dont have the kind of physical prowess that they do with him

[Moe]

just thinking that because of his speed, maybe torrence might match up well against jackson ??

This crossed my mind as well but I can't see them doing it. Unfortunately, it's the little, hyper-quick guys that give our DB's fits and it'll be a hard matchup. Oddly, it seems like Greg Lewis always makes a play or two against the Skins and then disappears for a few weeks.

[colkurtz]

1. Some players play with more pain and are driven to be on the field than others. Springs, while very good most of his playing time, has been fragile - injured and missed games.

2. If I'm not mistaken, Springs has not restructured his contract, LIKE MOST of the other veteran Redskin players, two years in a row. He's very expensive but played extremely well this season.

3. I've had the feeling for two seasons that Springs considers each year here to be his last. They kept him this year because of the loss of ST and CB injuries. For reason #2 above I think they'll try to replace him with a FA and the draft next season.

4. IMO Springs has no particular loyalty to this team. He has a unique perspective since his father probably played his heart out and then was left to dry [as all players were until the modern era].

I like watching him and we absolutely need him for this defense. However, he's not a team guy. I'm not going to buy his shirt. Still, he's $7 mill richer than me this season so what does he care.

[swheeler]

If Springs felt the same way about this rivalry as we do, he never would have signed with the Skins. He grew up watching his dad play for Dallas. Personally, I'm glad it's not important to him because I'm glad he's on our team. I hope some of the other players feel the fire of the rivalry, but I'm willing to give Springs a pass.

[esmith1790]

If Springs felt the same way about this rivalry as we do, he never would have signed with the Skins. He grew up watching his dad play for Dallas. Personally, I'm glad it's not important to him because I'm glad he's on our team. I hope some of the other players feel the fire of the rivalry, but I'm willing to give Springs a pass.

Springs was some what injury prone coming from Seattle, if i remember correctly, and besides i dont think anyone was gona give him that contract.

[silverspring]

1. Some players play with more pain and are driven to be on the field than others. Springs, while very good most of his playing time, has been fragile - injured and missed games.

No doubt, and he was fragile before we signed him. He has track legs.

2. If I'm not mistaken, Springs has not restructured his contract, LIKE MOST of the other veteran Redskin players, two years in a row. He's very expensive but played extremely well this season.

First of all considering the redskins have been trying to get rid of springs for 2 years and considering his fragility why on earth would you even want to restructure him so we are tied to him for many years in the future?

Secondly, Springs did restructure his contract twice already. How many times should he be required to do this in order to qualify as a team player?

This viewpoint that springs is a bad redskins for not taking a pay cut or for not restructuring every year is not fair.


3. I've had the feeling for two seasons that Springs considers each year here to be his last. They kept him this year because of the loss of ST and CB injuries. For reason #2 above I think they'll try to replace him with a FA and the draft next season.

4. IMO Springs has no particular loyalty to this team. He has a unique perspective since his father probably played his heart out and then was left to dry [as all players were until the modern era].

Uhh, yeah keeping in mind that the skins have been trying to trade him or get him to take a pay cut for the past two years, why would he not consider each year his last?

And why would you expect his loyalty to go up when we keep trying to get rid of him?

I like watching him and we absolutely need him for this defense. However, he's not a team guy. I'm not going to buy his shirt. Still, he's $7 mill richer than me this season so what does he care.

I think your point of view on this issue is very one sided and I just don't think they are taken in context of the whole situation.