War on Terror: Collateral Damage

[BurgundyNGold]

This seems to be a hot topic up here. Just to add in some background, the debate is whether, not or to which degree collateral damage is acceptable in the War on Terror. By collateral damage, we're talking about the loss of civilian life and the destruction of non-warfare civilian resources such as homes, schools, hospitals and bridges.

Unlike most traditional wars, terrorists do not wear uniforms and generally do not confine themselves to within internationally recognized borders. At times in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, locals have aligned themselves with wanted terrorists and have provided aid and shelter -- sometimes in hospitals, schools, places of worship or in personal homes where their neighbors may not feel the same way.

For years, Pakistan -- the United States' regional partner in the War on Terror -- has been either unwilling or unable to combat a resugent Taliban and Al Qaeda in its loosely governed Waziristan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waziristan), the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas) and Northwest Frontier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Frontier_Province) tribal provinces that abut the Afghan border. It is widely believed by NATO, the United States, Afghanistan and most international observers that the remaining Al Qaeda and Taliban leadership survive in this region and with the support of the local Pashtu tribes, have used their relative security to launch deadly cross border raids on NATO and Afghan forces, as well as suicide and other terrorist attacks or local villages and residents within both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

This year, the United States has stepped up attacks inside of Pakistan using unmanned aerial drones called Predators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-1_Predator) that can sail around the skies of Pakistan and even unleash a payload of bombs over selected targets within the country. While each such incident is different, it does raise legitimate questions about the legality and morality of using aerial surveillance and attack vehicles over the skies of a sovereign nation. Futhermore, collateral damage has occurred in the way of loss of civilian life and property.

Since the traditional lines of combatants and noncombatants are blurred by the very nature of terrorism, to what degree, if any, should collateral damage be acceptable when Pakistan itself seems disinterested or unable to take on active terrorist factions of the Taliban and Al Qaeda within their own borders?

[akhhorus]

Someone standing by an al queda member isn't a valid target. Someone letting them into their home or doesn't object(or report) when they are staying in a small town or village is in the firing line. I have ZERO problem with the Bush-Obama policy of using drones shooting from inside Afghanistan into Pakistan to take our targets of opportunity. I would only have the caveat of not shooting into dense urban areas.

[Ibleedburgundy]

From a moral or legal standpoint, not only do we have the right to go after our attackers in loosely Governed areas such as the Pakistan/Afghanistan border, the US Government has an obligation to prevent future attacks as well as to avenge the innocent Americans who perished on 9/11.

That said, we also have an obligation to implement very high standards about minimizing collateral damage, and technology allows it.

Given the fact that the Taliban/Al Qaida groups in this region made attempts on Pervez Musharraf's life, and they killed Benazir Bhutto, it seems the USA and at least the Government of Pakistan have a common enemy. So I don't see why our Governments can't work closely together in this endeavor. Perhaps they are although I have little faith that the Bush administration has exhausted every diplomatic opportunity with the PPP who they basically opposed. It should also be noted that the Pakistani military has lost many lives fighting terrorism, so when the US press acts as if they are indifferent to terrorism, it's simply not accurate. They are in an extremely difficult position in that they are getting hammered from both sides.

Bottom line, if our strikes in Pakistan are indeed precise, and we are hitting our targets, and they are resulting in killing the leaders of AQ and the Taliban, or driving a wedge between the two, then it is a good policy so long as the Pakistani Government remains relatively stable and is supported by their military. I suspect our level of cooperation with them could be improved particularly with their military leadership. And we have plenty of carrots to dangle in order to get that done.

[swheeler]

I guess I should probably post here since I sort of brought this up...

What clouds this issue for me is the idea of "harboring terrorists". It seems pretty simple: someone who takes terrorists into his home sacrifices his status as an innocent bystander. The problem is that this depends on the person knowing that his guest is a terrorist. The terrorist is unlikely to show up at the door and say "Hi, I'm a terrorist, I enjoy killing women and children." He is more likely to either describe himself as some kind of freedom fighter against an occupying army, or just not bring it up at all, and act like he's just a traveller passing through. The people in this region do not exactly have media access, so they don't have a basis to doubt such claims.

So, when the host takes in someone under those pretenses, I don't believe he's committed a capital offense. He does not deserve to die for his actions. His family, who probably had no say at all in whether to house and feed the sketchy guys wandering around in the mountains, is even less at fault.

So I take issue with the idea that the civilians who make up this collateral damage are responsible for and deserving of their fate.

Now, this doesn't mean that I think all collateral damage is not justified. If a target is of high enough priority, innocent death may be necessary. To me, that means the target is likely to kill more people than the airstrike against him would, and he is likely to disappear before a safer strike opportunity presents itself.

The issue of Pakistani sovereignty is less important to me. It is an issue of diplomacy, not morality. But it still factors into the moral equation in some circumstances. For example, in some cases an assault by a team of soldiers might cause less collateral damage than an airstrike. If that is the case in an Afghani mountain cave, then it is the better option. But if the same cave is a few miles across the border in Pakistan, sending US troops in would be a major international incident and, in the long run, could easily lead to more people dying. In that case, launch the Predators.

[akhhorus]

I guess I should probably post here since I sort of brought this up...

What clouds this issue for me is the idea of "harboring terrorists". It seems pretty simple: someone who takes terrorists into his home sacrifices his status as an innocent bystander. The problem is that this depends on the person knowing that his guest is a terrorist. The terrorist is unlikely to show up at the door and say "Hi, I'm a terrorist, I enjoy killing women and children." He is more likely to either describe himself as some kind of freedom fighter against an occupying army, or just not bring it up at all, and act like he's just a traveller passing through. The people in this region do not exactly have media access, so they don't have a basis to doubt such claims.

I seriously doubt that Al Queda leadership is able to move around Waziristan without the locals knowing exactly who they are(especially since that area is still tribally organized and the AQ people have protection from the tribal leadership). Especially since they aren't people from the local tribe(and speak totally different dialects of Arab). Zawahiri is egyptian, Bin Laden is noticeably tall. The AQ people aren't even able to blend in with the people in Iraq and they're much closer to the same ethnic groups that they belong to.

So, when the host takes in someone under those pretenses, I don't believe he's committed a capital offense. He does not deserve to die for his actions. His family, who probably had no say at all in whether to house and feed the sketchy guys wandering around in the mountains, is even less at fault.

See above. I don't believe that anyone could take a senior AQ member into their house without noticing that A-they're not from around there, B-they have armed guards with them and C-Everyone knows that AQ is in the area and fit the descriptions of A and B. Your scenario about feeding some random guys who show up at their house is just unrealistic.

[Biggie]

Especially since they aren't people from the local tribe(and speak totally different dialects of Arab). Zawahiri is egyptian, Bin Laden is noticeably tall. The AQ people aren't even able to blend in with the people in Iraq and they're much closer to the same ethnic groups that they belong to.
The Waziris are Pashtuns and I'm pretty sure they speak Pashto. The Arabic-speaking world pretty much ends at the Iran-Iraq border.

Anyways, the biggest issue with collateral damage within a war like this is that it's what the enemy wants us to do. The more innocent/"innocent" people die as a result of American actions, the more popular sentiment turns against us in the region and the more support is directed towards AQ. We have to walk a very fine line in minimizing civilian casualties, or else we risk handing terrorists a very valuable weapon: the hearts and minds, as the administration would say.

[akhhorus]

The Waziris are Pashtuns and I'm pretty sure they speak Pashto. The Arabic-speaking world pretty much ends at the Iran-Iraq border.

Yep, and Farsi. But Arabic is still spoken in some quarters there as a lingua franca.

Anyways, the biggest issue with collateral damage within a war like this is that it's what the enemy wants us to do. The more innocent/"innocent" people die as a result of American actions, the more popular sentiment turns against us in the region and the more support is directed towards AQ. We have to walk a very fine line in minimizing civilian casualties, or else we risk handing terrorists a very valuable weapon: the hearts and minds, as the administration would say.

Thats why Missile strikes outside of urban areas is a realistic solution and raids with ground troops isn't.

[Biggie]

Yep, and Farsi. But Arabic is still spoken in some quarters there as a lingua franca.
Ah, gotcha. Sorry for the mix-up.

Thats why Missile strikes outside of urban areas is a realistic solution and raids with ground troops isn't.
True. To be fair, sending troops into Pakistan would be tantamount to a declaration of war or at least an incredibly brazen violation of sovereignty.

[BurgundyNGold]

Ah, gotcha. Sorry for the mix-up.
Yeah, flavors of Arabic have been the lingua franca as far east as Malaysia and Indonesia for 600 years. Not many folks speak it that well, though. The AQ folks still likely need a translator, likely someone associated with a local imam. Still, if you speak Arabic and you're in a Muslim, for example, at least a segment of the population could have some rudimentary exchange with you as part of their religious training, as their are all some derivative of Sunni which practices Islam in Arabic.

BTW, you might know this... Is the Shia Kor'an in Farsi or Arabic? I suspect Arabic, but I know little of Iranian Islamic practices. Are mosque services in local dialect, Arabic or some combination?

True. To be fair, sending troops into Pakistan would be tantamount to a declaration of war or at least an incredibly brazen violation of sovereignty.
Honestly, I don't think the higher ups in the Pakistani military would mind the joint operations. The civilian government, however, realizes that American troops on their soil is a hugely unpopular move. Still, the CIA and US special forces have operated in Pakistan as "advisors".

That's where the Predator drones are useful. When coordinated with local intelligence and special forces recon (they might "paint" the target with a laser), they allow NATO forces in the region (code for the US, lol) to take out high value targets without officially setting boots on the ground inside of Pakistan. This allows for a degree of plausible deniability for the Pakistani government and even faux outrage, even if they are complicit on some levels.

[Biggie]

BTW, you might know this... Is the Shia Kor'an in Farsi or Arabic? I suspect Arabic, but I know little of Iranian Islamic practices. Are mosque services in local dialect, Arabic or some combination?
Arabic is the liturgical language of the faith (think what Latin used to be for Catholics), so the Qur'an is, by tradition, supposed to be in Arabic (the Persian translations of it are the oldest ones out there, though, since we were the first major non-Arab group to be, uh... "converted"). I don't really go to mosques either, but when I do, the actual prayers are in Arabic.

That preservation and study of original text is what makes communicating on some level based on the Classical Arabic of the Qur'an possible, although I don't personally know any Iranians that can speak Arabic based on religious study (outside of quoting scripture).

[BurgundyNGold]

Arabic is the liturgical language of the faith (think what Latin used to be for Catholics), so the Qur'an is, by tradition, supposed to be in Arabic (the Persian translations of it are the oldest ones out there, though, since we were the first major non-Arab group to be, uh... "converted"). I don't really go to mosques either, but when I do, the actual prayers are in Arabic.

That preservation and study of original text is what makes communicating on some level based on the Classical Arabic of the Qur'an possible, although I don't personally know any Iranians that can speak Arabic based on religious study (outside of quoting scripture).
Perhaps that is the most common condition. I imagine that (much like the Catholic Latin example) many Muslims might not speak much Arabic outside of the prayers they have memorized. However, on a separate note, reading Arabic might be a little more common.

[akhhorus]

Perhaps that is the most common condition. I imagine that (much like the Catholic Latin example) many Muslims might not speak much Arabic outside of the prayers they have memorized. However, on a separate note, reading Arabic might be a little more common.

The Jewish use of Hebrew in their services(even to this day) might be a better parallel. The catholics got rid of Latin a generation ago.

[BurgundyNGold]

The Jewish use of Hebrew in their services(even to this day) might be a better parallel. The catholics got rid of Latin a generation ago.
True. I was more envisioning the historical Western ubiquity of Latin as the common language tied to Catholicism as a parallel to the Eatern ubiquity of Arabic as the common language tied to Islam.

On a separate note, Latin has hugely impacted large swaths of Western lanugage as a base. With the exception of Sanscrit, it has influenced more base languages than any other proto language, Semitic languages included.

[Keino]

True. I was more envisioning the historical Western ubiquity of Latin as the common language tied to Catholicism as a parallel to the Eatern ubiquity of Arabic as the common language tied to Islam.

On a separate note, Latin has hugely impacted large swaths of Western lanugage as a base. With the exception of Sanscrit, it has influenced more base languages than any other proto language, Semitic languages included.

I was going to hold off on the Nuke suggestion until I read this exercise in intellectual masterbation LOL.

Lets just Nuke the whole area and be done with it.........Stick that in your Collateral for Damage!!! (And then Nuke Gaithersburg)

:sun:

[BurgundyNGold]

I was going to hold off on the Nuke suggestion until I read this exercise in intellectual masterbation LOL.
Interesting. My posts are all derive from the sticky and your posts are products of the icky, lol.

Lets just Nuke the whole area and be done with it.........Stick that in your Collateral for Damage!!! (And then Nuke Gaithersburg)

:sun:
Given all the illegals, I'm pretty sure that nuking Gaithersburg would qualify as a hate crime, lol.

[Keino]

Interesting. My posts are all derive from the sticky and your posts are products of the icky, lol.

I am at a loss for words. LOL


Given all the illegals, I'm pretty sure that nuking Gaithersburg would qualify as a hate crime, lol.

We can just say they were harboring terrorists.

[BurgundyNGold]

We can just say they were harboring terrorists.
Be my guest, lol. Oh, just let me get a bit of a head start up I-270. ;)

http://soapism.com/wp-content/070907.jpg

[PyroGenic]

If we're talking about one of the western tribal regions of Pakistan, the innocent people hurt in retaliatory actions have my condolences for having loved ones injured and killed, but not my empathy. Those tribal regions are closely tied-in with one another and there's no way I could be convinced that those people could be oblivious to Al Qaeda's presence in their communities; it's impossible.

Unfortunately, this is a situation of being punished for proximity instead of there being any ideal form of justice for some of these people. What's happening here is a testament to how badly these monsters need to face the consequences for obliterating 3,000 people in a single morning, and since precision is out of the question for some of these situations since it would require a military presence in a restricted area, collateral damage is going to continue until the tribal region of Pakistan is no longer a haven for these people.

[akhhorus]

Curious timing, but that attack into Syria was a commando raid to take out a AQ leader:

Link (http://www.newsweek.com/id/166039)

[BurgundyNGold]

Curious timing, but that attack into Syria was a commando raid to take out a AQ leader:

Link (http://www.newsweek.com/id/166039)
From the story, this sounds like pretty much the canned response from whichever malfeasant country has AQ, AQI or Taliban terrorists within their borders. In this case, the country is Syria, but you could use Pakistan, if you'd like.

The [insert country name] government claimed that the American raiders had attacked a civilian [insert innocuous structure] that was still under construction—and that eight [insert civilian group] were killed during the raid. [insert country name] officials described the attack an "act of aggression."
The only thing missing is the report by a peasant that only women and children were in the building at the time.

[akhhorus]

From the story, this sounds like pretty much the canned response from whichever malfeasant country has AQ, AQI or Taliban terrorists within their borders. In this case, the country is Syria, but you could use Pakistan, if you'd like.


Honestly, it sounds like Syria is issuing a pro-forma complaint that would tend to indicate that they were involved in support of the US, but want to score the political points about being "invaded" by the US.

[BurgundyNGold]

Honestly, it sounds like Syria is issuing a pro-forma complaint that would tend to indicate that they were involved in support of the US, but want to score the political points about being "invaded" by the US.
I really don't see how this is much different than the same hollow complaints that seem to come out of Pakistan when the same thing happens there. I really think that Pakistan (or at least the Pakistani military) has an idea what we're doing and I wouldn' be surprised if Syria did too.

[akhhorus]

I really don't see how this is much different than the same hollow complaints that seem to come out of Pakistan when the same thing happens there. I really think that Pakistan (or at least the Pakistani military) has an idea what we're doing.

Absolutely. Pakistan wants to control Waziristan and probably sees us as a proxy force to cut the Pashtun's foreign support down.

[PyroGenic]

The only thing missing is the report by a peasant that only women and children were in the building at the time.

Wasn't the last claim true? If you're not mocking the statements with [insert here] stuff, then ignore me, but there are truth to these claims some of the time.

[Biggie]

Honestly, it sounds like Syria is issuing a pro-forma complaint that would tend to indicate that they were involved in support of the US, but want to score the political points about being "invaded" by the US.
I seriously doubt a Baathist like Assad wants AQI in his borders anymore than the Iraqis do. I also don't think the US would send troops into Syrian territory without at least tacit approval from Damascus.

[akhhorus]

I seriously doubt a Baathist like Assad wants AQI in his borders anymore than the Iraqis do. I also don't think the US would send troops into Syrian territory without at least tacit approval from Damascus.

Especially after the MB's bombing in downtown Damascus. Assad gets triple points here: 1-He gets the US to attack political opponents/radicals, 2-he gets to whine about the US harassing him and 3-he gets brownie points with the US.

[Biggie]

Especially after the MB's bombing in downtown Damascus. Assad gets triple points here: 1-He gets the US to attack political opponents/radicals, 2-he gets to whine about the US harassing him and 3-he gets brownie points with the US.
Good move on his part. ;)

[BurgundyNGold]

Wasn't the last claim true? If you're not mocking the statements with [insert here] stuff, then ignore me, but there are truth to these claims some of the time.
Which claim? I don't know that many (if any) of these claims have been ultimately substantiated as killing innocent women and/ro children as claimed by the host nation or the partial witnesses. Every time a cross border terrorist mission happens, the host nation pretty much issues the same blanket response, often with villagers being only eyewitness sources referenced.

[BurgundyNGold]

Syria is ratcheting up it's criticism ...

Syria orders US school, cultural center closed

By ALBERT AJI
The Associated Press
Tuesday, October 28, 2008; 11:21 AM

DAMASCUS, Syria -- The Syrian government ordered an American school and a U.S. cultural center in Damascus closed on Tuesday in response to a deadly U.S. attack on a village near the Iraq border, the state-run news agency said.

U.S. officials said the raid killed a top operative of al-Qaida in Iraq who intelligence suggested was about to conduct an attack in Iraq, but Syria and the Iraqi government criticized the raid.

The SANA did not say when the school and the center would be closed but said the closures would continue until "further notice." There is a small American community in the Syrian capital and one American school and a cultural center. The center is linked to the embassy and the "American School" is located in Damascus' central upscale Maliki neighborhood.

Syria said U.S. troops in four helicopters on Sunday attacked a building inside Syria and near the border with Iraq and killed eight people.

...


Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/28/AR2008102801370.html?hpid=moreheadlines)

To me, as they usually tend to do, Syria is overplaying its hand on this. They made their statement of outrage and they also know that they have been harboring AQI terrorists and facilitators for nearly 5 years.

If I were the DOS, I'd issue a statement that said:

"In accordance with longstanding US policy since 9-11, if you harbor terrorists, you lose the guarantees of sovereignty of border. Syria and every other nation on Earth is fully aware of this anti-terrorism policy. The decisions of Syria to, at a minimum, persistently turn a blind eye to the operations of AQI in its territory are at the core of this incident. This act has and will save innocent lives that would otherwise have been taken by the AQI terrorists operating out of Syria."

[Biggie]

Syria is ratcheting up it's criticism ...



Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/28/AR2008102801370.html?hpid=moreheadlines)

To me, as they usually tend to do, they're overplaying their hand on this. They made their statement of outrage and they also know that they have been harboring AQI terrorists and facilitators for nearly 5 years.

If I were the DOS, I'd issue a statement that said:

"In accordance with longstanding US policy since 9-11, if you harbor terrorists, you lose the guarantees of sovereignty of border. Syria and every other nation on Earth is fully aware of this anti-terrorism policy. The decisions of Syria to, at a minimum, persistently turn a blind eye to the operations of AQI in its territory are at the core of this incident."
Seems like more of a fake gesture to me. If they start ordering Americans out or something, then I'd say it was more legitimate.

[akhhorus]

Oh Noes! Not closing the American school and cultural center! How can we recover from such a brilliant counter-strike?

[BurgundyNGold]

Seems like more of a fake gesture to me. If they start ordering Americans out or something, then I'd say it was more legitimate.
Since the school and the cultural center is associated with the embassy, this is not a trivial move, IMO.

[akhhorus]

Since the school and the cultural center is associated with the embassy, this is not a trivial move, IMO.

Bolivia expelled the US Ambassador in response to us not condemning their rebels. Thats not a trival move. Closing down two things that will be reopened when no one is looking is.

[BurgundyNGold]

Bolivia expelled the US Ambassador in response to us not condemning their rebels. Thats not a trival move. Closing down two things that will be reopened when no one is looking is.
Bolivia has been looking for a reason to do that to placate their benefactor, Hugo Chavez. Bolivia is a political time bomb in waiting, too.

And if Syria quietly reopens those establishments in a few months, I'll have to agree with your assessment.

[akhhorus]

Bolivia has been looking for a reason to do that to placate their benefactor, Hugo Chavez. Bolivia is a political time bomb in waiting, too.

They're a time bomb because the one state that is the economic and industrial engine of the whole country doesn't want to nationalized and is willing to fight over it. Morales isn't popular enough to fight them and stay in power. Both him and Chavez(and Iran and Russia) have to be looking at the oil prices and crapping themselves in fear.

[BurgundyNGold]

They're a time bomb because the one state that is the economic and industrial engine of the whole country doesn't want to nationalized and is willing to fight over it. Morales isn't popular enough to fight them and stay in power.
Precisely. Tick ... tick ... tick ...

Both him and Chavez(and Iran and Russia) have to be looking at the oil prices and crapping themselves in fear.
At the present, lower oil prices seem to be the key to global stability in about 100 ways. Eliminating oil as a viable revenue source, to whatever extent it can be eliminated, should be the #1 international policy of the Western powers, IMO.

[BurgundyNGold]

For those of you who have not yet seen it, Frontline did an excellent, yet alarming piece titled "War Briefing" about Aghanistan and Pakistan and what awaits the next President.

You can view the 60 minute segment here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warbriefing/view/) and I highly recommend that everyone take the time out to do it.

To summarize, as we all know, the war in Afghanistan is slowly tipping the way of the Taliban and AQ, who are now based in the lawless tribal regions of Pakistan. The current allocation of troops in Iraq is a large parts of the reason. Towards the middle until the end, the piece does a great job of explaining the nature of the Pashtun and chronicling the relationships between the Pakistani government, military and intelligence services and their pet project in asymmetric warfare, the Taliban.

[Keino]

This is a break away from my normal position on these sorts of things, but at this point, I don't give a crap about Collateral Damage. We need to kill those bastards that attacked our country and killed innocent civilians without provocation. Instead of abandoning the Afghan (now Pakistan) mission and focusing on Iraq, this administration should have focused on Getting Bin-Laden as promised. I will forever hate George Bush for his failure in this regard (among other things).

[BurgundyNGold]

Another Predator drone strike in Pakistan's Waziristan province. There aren't many details now, only that the house hit was "frequented by an Arab known as Abu Kasha Iraqi".


Suspected U.S. Missile Strike Kills 15 in Pakistan

By ISHTIAQ MAHSUD
The Associated Press
Friday, October 31, 2008; 11:40 AM

DERA ISMAIL KHAN, Pakistan -- Intelligence officials say a suspected US missile strike has killed 15 people in northwest Pakistan.
The officials said the identities of those killed in the attack late Friday were not immediately clear.

They said the house targeted in the raid in Mir Ali village in North Waziristan was frequented by an Arab known as Abu Kasha Iraqi.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.



Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/31/AR2008103101489.html?hpid=moreheadlines)

If I had to guess how this story is going to unfold, I'd say that a local villager will claim that it only civilians (likely women and children) were killed, the US will claim to have hit at least one high value target and Pakistan will decry the violation of their national sovereignty, while doing nothing to apprehend known AQ and Taliban terrorists running free within their borders. But, that's just a guess.

[BurgundyNGold]

And another one. This one netted the Egyptian-born AQ media chief Abu Jihad al-Masri ...

Al-Qaeda propaganda chief killed in Pakistan strike: officials
7 hours ago

ISLAMABAD (AFP) — An Egyptian Al-Qaeda operative -- described by the United States as the terror network's propaganda chief -- was killed in a missile strike in Pakistan, security officials said on Saturday.

Abu Jihad al-Masri was among several rebels killed when two missiles fired by a suspected US spy drone hit a truck in the North Waziristan tribal region bordering Afghanistan on Friday night, they said.

The United States has offered a one-million-dollar bounty for the death or capture of al-Masri, who has appeared in an anti-Western video introduced by Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's number two.

"The strike was aimed at a vehicle carrying Abu Jihad and two others. The target was successfully hit and all three people were killed," a senior Pakistani security official told AFP on condition of anonymity.

His death came in one of two separate missile attacks in Pakistan's troubled tribal belt on Friday, the latest in a series of 18 strikes in the past three months that have raised tensions between Washington and Islamabad.

...


And some news about the first strike in the post above. It looks like Abu Akash escaped the Predator attack.


...

Security officials said that Abu Akash, an Arab Al-Qaeda militant reported to have been killed in the first missile attack, now appeared to have escaped.

Source (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hY0NT8HT3kHKdlOwAxrVwRXOC0Pg)

[akhhorus]

And another one. This one netted the Egyptian-born AQ media chief Abu Jihad al-Masri ...

And some news about the first strike in the post above. It looks like Abu Akash escaped the Predator attack.

Source (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hY0NT8HT3kHKdlOwAxrVwRXOC0Pg)

These drone attacks are the ultimate weapon to use against terrorists. They want the chance to bleed us as much as possible and die in the fight, but we're using technology which can easily kill them and that is:
1-almost impossible for them to fight back against(and if they try, they just expose themselves in the population that much more)
2-even if they successfully fight back, all they take down is a cheap drone that there's 100 rolling off of the factory lines that day in the US.

Genius.

[BurgundyNGold]

These drone attacks are the ultimate weapon to use against terrorists. They want the chance to bleed us as much as possible and die in the fight, but we're using technology which can easily kill them and that is:
1-almost impossible for them to fight back against(and if they try, they just expose themselves in the population that much more)
2-even if they successfully fight back, all they take down is a cheap drone that there's 100 rolling off of the factory lines that day in the US.

Genius.
Well, it's a helluva lot more effective than what the Pakistanis are doing...

Pak free 21 Taliban militants in exchange for hostages

Islamabad, Nov 1 (PTI) Pakistani authorities have freed 21 Taliban fighters in exchange for an equal number of security personnel and civilians kidnapped by the militants following months of secret negotiations brokered by tribal elders.

The militants freed by authorities yesterday included some lieutenants of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan chief Baitullah Mehsud. They were being held in jails in Peshawar, Bannu and Dera Ismail Khan, a security official said.

Sources told The News daily that the Taliban fighters were handed over to a 'jirga' or tribal council that took them to Makeen area in the restive

South Waziristan tribal region, where Mehsud and other key Taliban commanders welcomed them. Most of the released militants belonged to the Mehsud tribe.

In exchange, the militants freed 19 paramilitary personnel and two non-combatants they had kidnapped several months ago in South Waziristan and Mohmand tribal regions.

An official told 'Dawn' newspaper that 16 troopers and two civilians who supplied rations to security forces were set free at Nawazkot in South Waziristan. They were captured by supporters of Mehsud on January 15. Three other paramilitary personnel, kidnapped in January and August, were freed in Mohmand Agency.

There was no official word on the development. The Taliban and Pakistani authorities have also swapped prisoners in the past.

Source (http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/FB5CAFC964149C10652574F40027234C?OpenDocument)

I have no doubt that AQ and the Taliban will adapt to this new technique, although it may take them a year or two. In the meantime, wouldn't be surprised if they went underground, literally. Still, it's better to keep the pressure on them. They cannot do nearly as much damage to Pakistan, Ahghanistan or anyone else if they cannot come out of their holes.

[akhhorus]

Well, it's a helluva lot more effective than what the Pakistanis are doing...



Source (http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/FB5CAFC964149C10652574F40027234C?OpenDocument)

I have no doubt that AQ and the Taliban will adapt to this new technique, although it may take them a year or two. In the meantime, wouldn't be surprised if they went underground, literally. Still, it's better to keep the pressure on them. They cannot do nearly as much damage to Pakistan, Ahghanistan or anyone else if they cannot come out of their holes.

Those drones can stay aloft over Waziristan for 20 hour shifts and we have plenty of them lol. They'll come out sooner or later. And every fighter who's hiding in a cave is 1 less fighter that can be used in Afghanistan. Thats almost as good as killing them since it gives our forces that much more breathing room.

[BurgundyNGold]

Have you ever been in line at that airport and had to take your various grooming supplies out, put them into a zip lock bag and have them scanned? Have you ever gotten your shampoo or your shower gel taken away and tossed in the garbage by TSA because you had 4 ounces of fluid instead of 3? Have you ever wished you could grab that son of a ***** terrorist who plotted that infamous mid-air liquid explosive campaign by the gonads and swing him around the screening area like Kung Fu Panda for making you waste time, deal with TSA and, most importantly, throw out your hair gel?

Too late. A Predator drone just blew him to bits.

Pakistan Officials: At Least 5 Suspected Terrorists Killed
Reports: U.S. Missile Strikes Took Place in Pakistan, Man Linked to Airline Plot Dead

KABUL, Nov. 22 -- A fugitive al-Qaeda operative and at least four other extremist fighters were killed Saturday in a suspected U.S. missile strike in a tribal area of northwest Pakistan, according to two Pakistani intelligence officials.

The Pakistani intelligence officials in the restive tribal area of North Waziristan said the dead operative was Rashid Rauf, a man who held dual Pakistani and British citizen and who has been linked to a 2006 plot to blow up British airliners. The attack came froman unmanned U.S. Predator drone that fired at least two Hellfire missiles at a suspected Taliban compound in the tribal village of Ali Khel in the morning, according to the intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to speak publicly about missile strikes. The dead also included at least three foreign fighters, the officials said.

...


Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/22/AR2008112200540.html?hpid=topnews)

[akhhorus]

Have you ever been in line at that airport and had to take your various grooming supplies out, put them into a zip lock bag and have them scanned? Have you ever gotten your shampoo or your shower gel taken away and tossed in the garbage by TSA because you had 4 ounces of fluid instead of 3? Have you ever wished you could grab that son of a ***** terrorist who plotted that infamous mid-air liquid explosive campaign by the gonads and swing him around the screening area like Kung Fu Panda for making you waste time, deal with TSA and, most importantly, throw out your hair gel?

Too late. A Predator drone just blew him to bits.

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/22/AR2008112200540.html?hpid=topnews)

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
There's no way our sigint is this good/accurate. Someone's cut a deal with us and is selling out AQ in Waziristan.

[BurgundyNGold]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
There's no way our sigint is this good/accurate. Someone's cut a deal with us and is selling out AQ in Waziristan.
Our intel sure has gotten a whole lot better, that's for sure. It may be the Pakistani military or factions in the ISI coming to realize that they can't hope to control the Taliban and that chicken will be coming home to roost in Pakistan if they don't do something quick. Since 2007, things have gone from Pakistani arrestees escaping from custody while visiting a mosque to our intel being about dead on for predator attacks.

[akhhorus]

Our intel sure has gotten a whole lot better, that's for sure. It may be the Pakistani military or factions in the ISI coming to realize that they can't hope to control the Taliban and that chicken will be coming home to roost in Pakistan if they don't do something quick. Since 2007, things have gone from Pakistani arrestees escaping from custody while visiting a mosque to our intel being about dead on for predator attacks.

If anything, the ISI would be more anti-US with Musharaff leaving office. There's been a brewing war in Waziristan between AQ/Taliban and the Pashtun, with the former targeting the leadership of the latter. Its either them or some faction of the Taliban IDing the targets for us(or both), our Intel has been improving but there's just no way we would be batting 1.000 with these drone strikes unless we were getting real time Humint updates. We just haven't missed in the last few months.

[akhhorus]

CIA Drone took out the chief of Al Queda in Pakistan and the mastermind of the massive car bombing in Pakistan(that was an attempt to take our their new president):

Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010803110.html?hpid=topnews)

Odd that Pakistan really didn't complain this time around...

[Ibleedburgundy]

CIA Drone took out the chief of Al Queda in Pakistan and the mastermind of the massive car bombing in Pakistan(that was an attempt to take our their new president):

Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010803110.html?hpid=topnews)

Odd that Pakistan really didn't complain this time around...

You're being facetious but seriously, I don't see why there should be any friction regarding us attacking AQ in certain areas of Pakistan. AQ is no friend of the Pakistani Government let alone the PPP.

[akhhorus]

You're being facetious but seriously, I don't see why there should be any friction regarding us attacking AQ in certain areas of Pakistan. AQ is no friend of the Pakistani Government let alone the PPP.

They've complained every other time we've done a drone strike into Pakistan. Off the record, the Pakistani govt loves what we're doing, but they have to issue a protest every time we do it just to protect their soverign rights and for political reasons. We always totally deny doing any strikes into Pakistani territory: its a game both sides play.

[Ibleedburgundy]

They've complained every other time we've done a drone strike into Pakistan. Off the record, the Pakistani govt loves what we're doing, but they have to issue a protest every time we do it just to protect their soverign rights and for political reasons. We always totally deny doing any strikes into Pakistani territory: its a game both sides play.

If their complaints are purely superficial and we have an arrangement, and they remain stable, it's hard to imagine a better strategy.

[akhhorus]

If their complaints are purely superficial and we have an arrangement, and they remain stable, it's hard to imagine a better strategy.

It is a great strategy, I was just pointing out that they didn't protest this time.

[akhhorus]

Link (http://www.newsweek.com/id/182653)

After one of the latest U.S. Predator attacks in North Waziristan, a Taliban subcommander visited the site. He's seen the results of many airstrikes over the past year or two, but this one really impressed him. The missile didn't just hit the right house; it scored a direct hit on the very room where Mustafa al-Misri ("Mustafa the Egyptian") and several other Qaeda operatives were holed up. The hit was so accurate, the subcommander says, it's as if someone had tossed a GPS device against the wall. Unfortunately for others at the scene, the mud-and-stone house collapsed, killing several Afghans along with the foreign fighters. Nevertheless, the subcommander told NEWSWEEK, "We are stunned" by such precision.

Al Qaeda's hideouts in Pakistan's tribal areas aren't quite as safe as they used to be. After years in which they were suspected of shielding Osama bin Laden's lieutenants—or, at least, not pursuing them very vigorously—Pakistan's intelligence services have finally started helping the Americans track and kill the fugitive terrorists in the frontier belt. According to Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency, 11 of the top 20 "high-value targets" along the Afghan border have been eliminated in the past six months. And while the Americans blast the bad guys in the tribal areas, the Pakistanis have been confronting problems in their own ranks. Since September, 140 pro-Islamist officers have been mustered out of ISI, according to a senior diplomatic official in Washington, asking not to be named on such a sensitive topic.

[Ibleedburgundy]

In Zardari's recent opinion piece in the Post there was not one word about our strikes there. At this point it's quite obvious Zardari is not too worried about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/27/AR2009012702675.html

Zakaria makes a compelling case (as usual) about he importance of Pakistan in the GWOT.

Solve Pakistan. When the United States invaded Afghanistan, it did not
defeat al-Qaeda and its supporters among the Taliban. They simply fled to
Pakistan, their original home. Pakistan has long viewed the various Islamic
militias it created and helped fund -- including the Taliban -- as useful
weapons in its arsenal, low-cost ways to keep its historic foes, India and
Afghanistan, off balance. For Islamabad to genuinely renounce these groups
would require a fundamental strategic rethinking within the Pakistani
military.

The civilian government in Pakistan, although weak and ineffective, is
allied with the international community on these issues. It, too, wants a
Pakistani military that knows its boundaries, does not run militant groups
and conceives of the country's national interests in less-confrontational
terms. I don't want to make this sound easy. It won't be. Of all the tasks
facing Petraeus, as head of U.S. Central Command, and newly appointed U.S.
special envoy Richard Holbrooke, this is the hardest. Yet if the problem
with Pakistan cannot be solved, the war in Afghanistan cannot be won.


http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/fareed_zakaria/2009/02/four_keys_to_success_in_afghan.html

In light of recent progress, I'm not convinced he's correct about Pakistan being the most difficult step.