Roster Built For The Past

[Skins7ny]

I have been reading in various threads everyone's prescription for what we need in the off-season. A new OT to replace Janesn, a new C to replace Rabach, a new LB to replace Marcus Washington, a DT, a DE, a OG, etc.

What I am wondering is, how does everybody expect to solve these problems when we only have 4 draft choices next year?
The free agency market is not the answer because (1) we have done it in past and it has proven not to work (2) most teams have gotten much wiser about locking up their young talent before they hit the FA market and (3) we probably will have to cut players to get under the cap next year (I know the FO is masterful in manipulating the cap every year, but unless we know in advance that 2010 will be an uncapped year, we probably will be limited to 1 or 2 FAs this off-season).

The problem as I see it is that this roster is the same roster that was built by Joe Gibbs to win in the 3rd and 4th year of Gibbs 2.0. The only real difference between this year's roster and last year's is the 9 draftees, only one of whom has seen the field for any significant PT. In other words, this roster was built for the past, not for the future.

Of the 53 guys on our roster now, 26 will be in their 30s next year!. That is 1/2 the roster!. That has to be tops in the league!!!

Some of those guys are clearly in need of being replaced. But how are we going to do that when we only have four picks next year? Even if (as I expect) some of Vinny's 2008 draftees end up being solid players, we are still behind the 8-ball in terms of building the roster with a long-term plan, assuming we even have one. Gibbs, bless him, built this team with an eye towards making the Super Bowl in year 3 and/or year 4, and picked players and negotiated contracts accordingly. He largely ignored the draft except to get one starter per year (two tops) at the tops of the drafts whom he thought could contribute quickly and who filled immediate openings. Gibbs' only real gambit for the future was the trade for Jason, and he made that thinking he was going to get playoff wins out of Brunell. Now we have an old roster that has to be largely overhauled within the next 3 years, but we don't have the ammunition to do it. Even if we did, does anyone here have lots of confidence that Vinny (and Danny?) have the ability to use that ammunition wisely to refill the roster?

I don't think this FO will ever go into rebuilding mode, and it does not seem to recognize what we all recognize-that there are areas of the team that need to be overhauled. We need to get younger and deeper, and we need to stop trading away draft picks. Instead, we will probably just continue to act as if we are one player away from the Super Bowl (Jason Taylor, anyone?). Hell, it wouldn't shock me if we throw our #1 at Cincinnati for Ocho Stinko this off-season.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic about the future. If it is any consolation, I do think we are going to go 10-6 and make the playoffs this year, which I am thoroughly enjoying, even with our recent problems. I just keep reading about all the great plans some of us have for the off-season, and I am wondering where all these new players are going to come from. And heaven help us if guys like Kelly, Thomas, Rinehart, Tryon, Moore, etc. don't turn into players, because that will push us further behind the 8-ball.

[Lavar703]

The offense with the expcetion of the Line is relatively young and odds are we will pick a guard or a center in the first round next year, so say we pick Alex Mack and he becomes our starter at center

LT: Samuels RT: Stephon Heyer LG:Chad Rhinehart RG:Randy Thomas C: Mack

That will give us a pretty talented line that has been infused with a good deal of youth. Now if, and I know its a big IF, they give Campbell enough time to throw the ball, think of all the targets he will have in Moss, Cooley, Kelly, Thomas and Davis, not to mention Portis, all of them with the exception of Moss will be under 30.

Now as far as the defense goes I really think your right, we could be in some trouble in the very near future. Springs will be gone after this season and so will Washington. Griffen is nearing the end and at some point Fletcher has to start slowing down. Taylor is already up there in age and Carter is getting there. We do have a young secondary but it doesnt help them that we have neglected the defensive line for so long. The future doesnt look promising for this defense at all.

[skinsfan36]

if we struggle id like to see rinehart play at least 30 snaps

[MWballer]

I definetly see what your saying but I think some of the problems on D will be addressed during FA guys like A. Crowell, K. Dansby, T. Suggs, C. Gamble, or a FA defensive linemen would all be able to help our defense. Then we can draft an Olinemen like D. Robinson or A. Mack to help our aging line. It's not all bad but we do need to start drafting better!

[Skins7ny]

The offense with the expcetion of the Line is relatively young and odds are we will pick a guard or a center in the first round next year, so say we pick Alex Mack and he becomes our starter at center

LT: Samuels RT: Stephon Heyer LG:Chad Rhinehart RG:Randy Thomas C: Mack

That will give us a pretty talented line that has been infused with a good deal of youth. Now if, and I know its a big IF, they give Campbell enough time to throw the ball, think of all the targets he will have in Moss, Cooley, Kelly, Thomas and Davis, not to mention Portis, all of them with the exception of Moss will be under 30.

Now as far as the defense goes I really think your right, we could be in some trouble in the very near future. Springs will be gone after this season and so will Washington. Griffen is nearing the end and at some point Fletcher has to start slowing down. Taylor is already up there in age and Carter is getting there. We do have a young secondary but it doesnt help them that we have neglected the defensive line for so long. The future doesnt look promising for this defense at all.

The OL has the potential to be OK, if Rinehart and Heyer can play and if we spend a high pick or two there in the next couple of years. The jury is out on all of those "ifs", however. Rinehart hasn't played on offense yet so we have no idea if he can play, and I am not sold on Heyer as a future starter yet. He is not comfortable at LT by his own admission, and he does not run block well enough (so far) to be a RT in the NFC East. And who knows if the FO will spend a high pick on an Alex Mack or a Duke Robinson next year.

I am not willing to utterly discount the possibility that some of these guys are just having bad years and could rebound next year. Rabach in particular, and both Thomas and Jansen are coming off major injuries. Jansen's in particular is one which could see him playing better next year than this year, but he was supposedly already slipping before the injury.
Kendall has been the most consistent, but he is going to be 36 and has arthritic knees.

On defense, I think they plan to swap out Hall for Springs, but Taylor, Griffin, Fletcher Smoot, Campbell, Washington and maybe Evans and Carter will probably all be gone after two more seasons, and Montgomery, Golston and Doughty will be unrestricted free agents by then (unless there is an uncapped year in 2010). We need to build defensive personnel back up through the next 2-3 drafts, but we also cannot ignore the offense.

I agree that if all of Vinny's 2008 picks pan out, the situation on offense will not be so dire. I give him credit for seeing the need at WR, I just hope he picked the right guys. It is frustrating watching Zorn as he runs an offense that has, for all practical purposes, just one WR. I am hopeful Thomas and Kelly turn into players, and that will turn a weakness into a strength. although we will still need to draft/find another WR to replace Thrash, IMO next season.

[hail2skins]

Let's see, Gibbs coached this how long ago? Last season was it. Zorn just took over so you can't expect a roster to change overnight. The weapons on offense are young even though they are not playing much right now. There is some work to do on the lines though. We have young receivers, young tightends and two young QB's. We even have some young linemen as well.

I'm really not understanding all of your logic but this team does have some young players and as I indicated before, the roster can't be redone overnight.

[hail2skins]

The OL has the potential to be OK, if Rinehart and Heyer can play and if we spend a high pick or two there in the next couple of years. The jury is out on all of those "ifs", however. Rinehart hasn't played on offense yet so we have no idea if he can play, and I am not sold on Heyer as a future starter yet. He is not comfortable at LT by his own admission, and he does not run block well enough (so far) to be a RT in the NFC East. And who knows if the FO will spend a high pick on an Alex Mack or a Duke Robinson next year.

I am not willing to utterly discount the possibility that some of these guys are just having bad years and could rebound next year. Rabach in particular, and both Thomas and Jansen are coming off major injuries. Jansen's in particular is one which could see him playing better next year than this year, but he was supposedly already slipping before the injury.
Kendall has been the most consistent, but he is going to be 36 and has arthritic knees.

On defense, I think they plan to swap out Hall for Springs, but Taylor, Griffin, Fletcher Smoot, Campbell, Washington and maybe Evans and Carter will probably all be gone after two more seasons, and Montgomery, Golston and Doughty will be unrestricted free agents by then (unless there is an uncapped year in 2010). We need to build defensive personnel back up through the next 2-3 drafts, but we also cannot ignore the offense.

I agree that if all of Vinny's 2008 picks pan out, the situation on offense will not be so dire. I give him credit for seeing the need at WR, I just hope he picked the right guys. It is frustrating watching Zorn as he runs an offense that has, for all practical purposes, just one WR. I am hopeful Thomas and Kelly turn into players, and that will turn a weakness into a strength. although we will still need to draft/find another WR to replace Thrash, IMO next season.Whenever you deal with the draft you're dealing with "ifs". From the 1st to the last round, you're dealing with "Ifs".

[BurgundyNGold]

Let's see, Gibbs coached this how long ago? Last season was it. Zorn just took over so you can't expect a roster to change overnight. The weapons on offense are young even though they are not playing much right now. There is some work to do on the lines though. We have young receivers, young tightends and two young QB's. We even have some young linemen as well.

I'm really not understanding all of your logic but this team does have some young players and as I indicated before, the roster can't be redone overnight.
The youth is largely at the skill positions. Campbell, Portis, Betts, Moss, ARE, Thomas, Davis, Kelly, Cooley and Davis are all under 30 years old on offense. Rogers, Hall, Smoot, Landry, Horton and Moore are all under 30 in the defensive skill positions.

The fact is that you usually win Superbowls with your 4-8 year players. However, you need a smattering of veterans mixed in to give the locker room character and fortitude.

It's also a fact that you win and lose in the trenches, an area largely ignored in the draft by this team over the past 5 or 6 years on the OL and for more than a decade on the DL. This team will need to turn its attention to bolstering the OL and DL with quality youth over the next several drafts.

[Lavar703]

I definetly see what your saying but I think some of the problems on D will be addressed during FA guys like A. Crowell, K. Dansby, T. Suggs, C. Gamble, or a FA defensive linemen would all be able to help our defense. Then we can draft an Olinemen like D. Robinson or A. Mack to help our aging line. It's not all bad but we do need to start drafting better!

You have to understand that the guys you mentioned above are all top tier free agents and even though our front office could work some magic and get all of them if they wanted at some point we just have to pay more attention to the draft and stop with all these ridiculous free agent signings and trades for older players. This past draft we had a shot at Calais Campbell and chose Fred Davis instead, a guy whom according to Zorn, should wear a helmet not only on the football field, but at all times. Vinnie needs to be more responsible and stop treating this team like a Madden franchise.

[akhhorus]

NY giants: 19 players over 30 in 2009.
NE Patriots: 27 players over 30 in 2009.
Jets: 23 players over 30 in 2009.
Steelers: 18 players over 30 in 2009.
Ravens: 19 players over 30 in 2009.

Age doesn't seem to matter.

[LATrueRedskin]

Let's see, Gibbs coached this how long ago? Last season was it. Zorn just took over so you can't expect a roster to change overnight. The weapons on offense are young even though they are not playing much right now. There is some work to do on the lines though. We have young receivers, young tightends and two young QB's. We even have some young linemen as well.

I'm really not understanding all of your logic but this team does have some young players and as I indicated before, the roster can't be redone overnight.

Not to mention Rogers, Hall, Landry, McIntosh, on Horton on defense. Add Clinton Portis is still very young. We're just a little long in the tooth along the lines, and we're addressing it now with the drafting of Rhinehart. It's not going to be done overnight, but I like the direction we're moving in.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Not to mention Rogers, Hall, Landry, McIntosh, on Horton on defense. Add Clinton Portis is still very young. We're just a little long in the tooth along the lines, and we're addressing it now with the drafting of Rhinehart. It's not going to be done overnight, but I like the direction we're moving in.

If Heyer and Reinhart develop, we will be in much better shape on the oline. When healthy, Montgomery is good starting DT. Golston also has a place as a rotation DT IMO.

[shally]

NY giants: 19 players over 30 in 2009.
NE Patriots: 27 players over 30 in 2009.
Jets: 23 players over 30 in 2009.
Steelers: 18 players over 30 in 2009.
Ravens: 19 players over 30 in 2009.

Age doesn't seem to matter.

patriot defense is old and slow.. just ask the jets...lol

but i think there is some truth to that.. no question that the pats looked tired at the end of the superbowl and in the OT against the jets..

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

I agree that we are old mainly along the lines. There are a few players on both sides of the ball that may not be here in 2009 due to age or significant cap charge or we can improve upon:

Offense: Fabini, Thrash, Cartwright, Kendall
Defense: Washington, Spingles, Griffin, Daniels, Taylor

Now I'm sure not all of these players will be gone in 2009, but some certainly will.

[shally]

I agree that we are old mainly along the lines. There are a few players on both sides of the ball that may not be here in 2009 due to age or significant cap charge or we can improve upon:

Offense: Fabini, Thrash, Cartwright, Kendall
Defense: Washington, Spingles, Griffin, Daniels, Taylor

Now I'm sure not all of these players will be gone in 2009, but some certainly will.

i like the way kendall has played and although his contract expires this year, i could see him returning for another year.
BUT
the problem is that if he returns it means the left side of the line is set with PK and CS.. where does reinhart go ? he seems to be a left sided player and they have used him primarily at Left Tackle.. even if he moves inside, where does he go if PK returns ? most players are decidedly better on one side or the other. can reinhart even handle a change from left to right ?

not only that, Ross Tucker had a fascinating column on the profound differences between playing Left guard as opposed to Right Guard.
Left is much easier and finding a replacement is easiest at LG of any line position. so again, where does CR go if kendall returns?

[silverspring]

Good post. I think what we really need is a little luck. We actually have a lot of youth on the roster. We just desperately need that youth to turn into starters. Our big draft this year needs to really pay dividends next year. If that happens we could actually be in good shape. Look it isn't that ugly, assuming these pass catchers work out(big assumption) we are set at all our offensive skill positions (qb, rb, wr, te). On defense we are in a similar situation. I would guess that one of those few sizable FA contracts next year we have to use will go to deangelo hall. Rogers has found his consistent form this year so that solidifies our entire secondary and leaves it fairly young even if we lose springs.

The big holes left are at dline and oline. Now we don't have many draft picks next year, so we are just going to have to use them wisely. A monster defensive lineman and a new tackle and center are on my wish list. If either rinehart or heyer turns into a good starter then I think we will be ok.

[smoak]

The solution is simple. Fire the de facto GM and find a prospective owner that has never played fantasy football. :rolleyes:

I agree the roster can’t be overhauled overnight, but wasting picks on veteran players further augments our issues when the “gamble” fails.

[Skins7ny]

Whenever you deal with the draft you're dealing with "ifs". From the 1st to the last round, you're dealing with "Ifs".
Yes, but as we have found out, quite painfully, you are dealing with "ifs" even if you trade for veterans or sign them as free agents.
Let's see, Gibbs coached this how long ago? Last season was it. Zorn just took over so you can't expect a roster to change overnight. The weapons on offense are young even though they are not playing much right now. There is some work to do on the lines though. We have young receivers, young tightends and two young QB's. We even have some young linemen as well.

I'm really not understanding all of your logic but this team does have some young players and as I indicated before, the roster can't be redone overnight.
I don't expect the roster to change overnight. I was thrilled when Vinny kept and used all the draft choices, because I thought it was a recognition of the need to rebuild the roster with young drafted talent, and a first step towards that goal. I supported the James trade because it was a conditional 7th-rounder for a young coachable at a position of need that we virtually ignored in the draft. My point is I would like to see the mass drafting continue, and that our roster is built with an eye towards a large degree of turnover in the next two years.

My main impetus for starting this thread is that I looked over my copy of the roster and I was shocked to find that half our team will be in its 30s next year.
NY giants: 19 players over 30 in 2009.
NE Patriots: 27 players over 30 in 2009.
Jets: 23 players over 30 in 2009.
Steelers: 18 players over 30 in 2009.
Ravens: 19 players over 30 in 2009.

Age doesn't seem to matter.
I was hoping someone would do this. This makes me feel better.

[BurgundyNGold]

The solution is simple. Fire the de facto GM and find a prospective owner that has never played fantasy football. :rolleyes:

I agree the roster can’t be overhauled overnight, but wasting picks on veteran players further augments our issues when the “gamble” fails.
We don't have a second rounder next year, but we could trade back and pick up a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th. You then have to examine whether 4 picks (2nd, 2 3rds and a 4th/3rd and 2 4ths) are better than having a 1st round talent on your team and then hoping to hit a starter with your 3rd or 4th rounder.

[shally]

We don't have a second rounder next year, but we could trade back and pick up a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th. You then have to examine whether 4 picks (2nd, 2 3rds and a 4th/3rd and 2 4ths) are better than having a 1st round talent on your team and then hoping to hit a starter with your 3rd or 4th rounder.

i bet we get a comp pick or 2 this year as well. we signed no one.. we got one last year for the loss of holdman (talk about stealing..) so maybe we get one for brunell ?

i fully expect us to trade down for more picks and we will add 5-7 new players that way

given the success of rocky and cooley, i dont think there is much difference between second/third rounders and first rounders for us
it will be huge if any of the players on this year's PS such as clark and brown (IR) are ready to move up

overall, most rosters turn over 20 % every year

[Meatsnack]

I don't agree that signing veterans is a failed approach. Gibbs built our team around a mix of succesful veteran signings/trades as well as star first and second rounders. We have certainly had our share of FA signings blow up in our faces but we have had as many work out very well.

If Heyer can ever learn to drop his hips and get leverage in run blocking I think he can be a good RT. If not he will continue to be passable as a pass blocker and a liability in the run game.

Rinehart seems to have made an impression on Buges and I suspect strongly that he will replace Kendall this next offseason since Pete is in the final year of his contract. Despite being a good, reliable OG, Kendall will likely sign elsewhere for money and a starters role.

I am driving the Draft Alex Mack bandwagon and I hope he relegates Rabach to the bench very quickly. Casey is a mess, good one week and crap the next. Seeing the way he let Ratliffe disrupt the entire center of the offense made me want to puke. The game before he got owned by Hampton. Vs. the Browns, Rabach played very well against Rogers, who has been killing people this year. He payed like crap against the Rams. The Rams! He played very well vs. Dallass and Philthy in the first go-arounds. He played like poo vs. the VaGiants. 50% is not good enough for your pivot man.

Randy will play better because he drives himself harder than any other O-lineman. He won't tolerate mediocrity from himself. Last Sunday's game was the first one I have seen him play poorly this season. If last week was a preview of Randy getting old in a hurry, I am worried. Buges loves him too much to kick him to the curb in a hurry and I have no idea how we would replace him.

Samuels is a prototype. He will be fine, long term.

On defense, Griffin will be back next year unless something bizarre happens. So will Golston. We really missed Monty's bulk and run stopping vs. the cownotmen. Phillip Daniels will be back as long as Blache is here, probably at DT. We will be looking for a DT either in the draft or in FA. I am still holding out hope we go after Haynesworth or Dansby but I don't know if that is compatible with signing Rogers, Campbell, and possibly Hall to long-term deals. We may be out of the FA market next year.

So, I think, on the NFL scale of normal turnover, our roster is largely fine.

[Redskin4Life]

i bet we get a comp pick or 2 this year as well. we signed no one.. we got one last year for the loss of holdman (talk about stealing..) so maybe we get one for brunell ?

i fully expect us to trade down for more picks and we will add 5-7 new players that way

given the success of rocky and cooley, i dont think there is much difference between second/third rounders and first rounders for us
it will be huge if any of the players on this year's PS such as clark and brown (IR) are ready to move up

overall, most rosters turn over 20 % every year
While reading this thread, I was thinking this needs to be brought up... it seems that Vinny has noticed that we do have a need at OL and we brought in a few promising prospects that are still on the team (Clark on PS, Brown on IR, Rinehart, Geisinger, Heyer). We even had a guy that other teams wanted in Crummey. We do have the training camp next year to see how these guys do and honestly I think we've seen the end of Kendall at starting OG (he may come back as a backup -- my guess is that either Rinehart starts or Jansen moves to that guard spot). I think we're working in the right direction for fixing the age issue on the O line.

As for the DLine, I think there's signs of improvement there as well... just not as apparent. We've got a starting caliber DE in Erasmus James. Rob Jackson and Chris Wilson have both had a year more to learn the position. To me it looks like we use a high pick for one or two more young guys at DT and DE over the next couple of years and we'll be fine for the future.

Of course, we'll definitely need a couple of replacements at LB positions (starting Strong, backup Strong and Weak) but I think we can fix one of those positions with FA (hopefully Karlos Dansby will be an option for us) and draft for the other two. Maybe Gatewood and Fincher will show us something next year.

I may just have the "B & G" glasses on but I see this roster being one that we can improve upon in the next two or three drafts without too many issues.

[shally]

While reading this thread, I was thinking this needs to be brought up... it seems that Vinny has noticed that we do have a need at OL and we brought in a few promising prospects that are still on the team (Clark on PS, Brown on IR, Rinehart, Geisinger, Heyer). We even had a guy that other teams wanted in Crummey. We do have the training camp next year to see how these guys do and honestly I think we've seen the end of Kendall at starting OG (he may come back as a backup -- my guess is that either Rinehart starts or Jansen moves to that guard spot). I think we're working in the right direction for fixing the age issue on the O line.

As for the DLine, I think there's signs of improvement there as well... just not as apparent. We've got a starting caliber DE in Erasmus James. Rob Jackson and Chris Wilson have both had a year more to learn the position. To me it looks like we use a high pick for one or two more young guys at DT and DE over the next couple of years and we'll be fine for the future.

Of course, we'll definitely need a couple of replacements at LB positions (starting Strong, backup Strong and Weak) but I think we can fix one of those positions with FA (hopefully Karlos Dansby will be an option for us) and draft for the other two. Maybe Gatewood and Fincher will show us something next year.

I may just have the "B & G" glasses on but I see this roster being one that we can improve upon in the next two or three drafts without too many issues.

i dont think we can count on james to provide anything.. in fact, i was surprised he wasnt cut to make room for hall. lacanfora even brought that up. either they are going incredibly slow with james and planning on him not being a factor before next year or he just hasnt anything left due to injuries

i am disappointed also that jackson has been inactive for so many games.
i dont think we can count on him for much of anything before next year-- even by then

wilson shows little or no progress at all. he is a non factor when in and is too small to anchor against the run. he had 5 sacks last year. i doubt he will come close to that this year.. frankly, from the way chris clemons has played for philly, we would have been better off signing him for this designated role this offseason

the player who might actually provide the biggest impact next year might actually be daniels.IF HE IS MOVED INSIDE... he was said to be in great shape this year and has been working on his rehab. he will want to come back.

dont forget about buzbee.. who knows what we will have in him next year ?

so, there are players, but we simply have very few sure things to count on..

[Ibleedburgundy]

I agree with the jist of what the op is saying. This knock on the Redskins for years has been that they don't value draft picks and trade them away too easily. 4 draft picks next year eh? Youch, that ain't gonna cut it. Hopefully we can make some good trade downs to increase that number.

Not every pick is going to turn into a Horton but man you gotta at least give yourself a chance.

I wouldn't mind if we took all lineman in 2009 and maybe a LB.

BTW, when was the last time we traded away a player and received a draft pick?

[Lavar703]

I agree with the jist of what the op is saying. This knock on the Redskins for years has been that they don't value draft picks and trade them away too easily. 4 draft picks next year eh? Youch, that ain't gonna cut it. Hopefully we can make some good trade downs to increase that number.

Not every pick is going to turn into a Horton but man you gotta at least give yourself a chance.

I wouldn't mind if we took all lineman in 2009 and maybe a LB.

BTW, when was the last time we traded away a player and received a draft pick?

Sean Gilbert maybe?

[akhhorus]

I agree with the jist of what the op is saying. This knock on the Redskins for years has been that they don't value draft picks and trade them away too easily. 4 draft picks next year eh? Youch, that ain't gonna cut it. Hopefully we can make some good trade downs to increase that number.

Not every pick is going to turn into a Horton but man you gotta at least give yourself a chance.

I wouldn't mind if we took all lineman in 2009 and maybe a LB.

BTW, when was the last time we traded away a player and received a draft pick?

Arch Deluxe to the bears for a pick.

[Lavar703]

I dont see how are draft will really make that much of an impact next year. Alex Mack would be a great pick but then we still do not have a DT who is capable of some kind of push up the middle or a DE who can stop the run. We have solid pass rushers in Carter and Taylor but there just too small to stop the run. We need to replace Marcus Washington next year as well even if he is capable of returning, its sad to see such a talented player lose his career to injuries. Hall will cancel out Springs if he is signed long term and maybe Fincher can do the same with Washington if he ever gets a shot. But we still have little to no talent behind Taylor, Carter, Griffen and Montgomery as far as depth is concerned. The Giants draft pass rushers year after year and Im very envious, they lose there two best pass rushers and just plug two more in and its like nothing has changed, must be nice.

[Lavar703]

Arch Deluxe to the bears for a pick.

Vinnie should have won some sort of award for that

[shally]

I agree with the jist of what the op is saying. This knock on the Redskins for years has been that they don't value draft picks and trade them away too easily. 4 draft picks next year eh? Youch, that ain't gonna cut it. Hopefully we can make some good trade downs to increase that number.

Not every pick is going to turn into a Horton but man you gotta at least give yourself a chance.

I wouldn't mind if we took all lineman in 2009 and maybe a LB.

BTW, when was the last time we traded away a player and received a draft pick?


gardner ?

Arch??

[Skins7ny]

i bet we get a comp pick or 2 this year as well. we signed no one.. we got one last year for the loss of holdman (talk about stealing..) so maybe we get one for brunell ?

i fully expect us to trade down for more picks and we will add 5-7 new players that way
given the success of rocky and cooley, i dont think there is much difference between second/third rounders and first rounders for us
it will be huge if any of the players on this year's PS such as clark and brown (IR) are ready to move up

overall, most rosters turn over 20 % every year
(1)I have us penciled in for a compensatory 7th for losing Brunell and Priouleau last year. Maybe if we are lucky we get one 7th each.
(2) how are we going to add 5-7 players by trading down? With all the trades Vinny made last Draft Day (3 of them), we netted exactly ONE additional pick, and that was in the 5th round. Our bounty of choices came courtesy of the NFL, which gave us three compensatory draft selections (one in 3rd round, 2 in the 7th).
(3) A lot of people here seem to think that Kerry Brown is on IR. He isn't. We cut him with an injury settlement. He is not on our practice squad. In fact, I don't think he is on anyone's pracrtice squad or team. I liked him coming out of school too and was glad we signed him. Maybe we will sign him for camp next year and give him another shot.
i dont think we can count on james to provide anything.. in fact, i was surprised he wasnt cut to make room for hall. lacanfora even brought that up. either they are going incredibly slow with james and planning on him not being a factor before next year or he just hasnt anything left due to injuries

i am disappointed also that jackson has been inactive for so many games.
i dont think we can count on him for much of anything before next year-- even by then

wilson shows little or no progress at all. he is a non factor when in and is too small to anchor against the run. he had 5 sacks last year. i doubt he will come close to that this year.. frankly, from the way chris clemons has played for philly, we would have been better off signing him for this designated role this offseason....
Or, just keeping him here when he had him, and developing him ourselves. He was injured and we were too impatient with him. I felt he had a lot of promise and was disappointed when he went elsewhere to become a good pass rusher. Meanwhile, Chris Wilson has been a real disappointment as a pass rusher. I expected a lot more out of him this year, especially with Taylor getting hurt. He is a good special teamer, though.
I dont see how are draft will really make that much of an impact next year. Alex Mack would be a great pick but then we still do not have a DT who is capable of some kind of push up the middle or a DE who can stop the run. We have solid pass rushers in Carter and Taylor but there just too small to stop the run. We need to replace Marcus Washington next year as well even if he is capable of returning, its sad to see such a talented player lose his career to injuries. Hall will cancel out Springs if he is signed long term and maybe Fincher can do the same with Washington if he ever gets a shot. But we still have little to no talent behind Taylor, Carter, Griffen and Montgomery as far as depth is concerned. The Giants draft pass rushers year after year and Im very envious, they lose there two best pass rushers and just plug two more in and its like nothing has changed, must be nice.
That is what happens when you draft wisely and keep your picks year after year. The Giants, as much as I hate them, use the free agent and trade markets judiciously, to fill in the occassional hole on their roster, not as a major component of their roster-building.

And the Giants and Eagles both have TWO 1st-round picks next year.

[akhhorus]

That is what happens when you draft wisely and keep your picks year after year. The Giants, as much as I hate them, use the free agent and trade markets judiciously, to fill in the occassional hole on their roster, not as a major component of their roster-building.

The Giants made a trade that you would have condemned for sheer idiocy when they gave up 3 pro bowlers for Eli. Thats still not a good deal on points.

And the Giants and Eagles both have TWO 1st-round picks next year.

The Eagles aren't the drafters they were ever hyped to be, the Giants don't have 2 1sts. They have 2 2nds.

[shally]

(1)I have us penciled in for a compensatory 7th for losing Brunell and Priouleau last year. Maybe if we are lucky we get one 7th each.
(2) how are we going to add 5-7 players by trading down? With all the trades Vinny made last Draft Day (3 of them), we netted exactly ONE additional pick, and that was in the 5th round. Our bounty of choices came courtesy of the NFL, which gave us three compensatory draft selections (one in 3rd round, 2 in the 7th).
(3) A lot of people here seem to think that Kerry Brown is on IR. He isn't. We cut him with an injury settlement. He is not on our practice squad. In fact, I don't think he is on anyone's pracrtice squad or team. I liked him coming out of school too and was glad we signed him. Maybe we will sign him for camp next year and give him another shot.

Or, just keeping him here when he had him, and developing him ourselves. He was injured and we were too impatient with him. I felt he had a lot of promise and was disappointed when he went elsewhere to become a good pass rusher. Meanwhile, Chris Wilson has been a real disappointment as a pass rusher. I expected a lot more out of him this year, especially with Taylor getting hurt. He is a good special teamer, though.

That is what happens when you draft wisely and keep your picks year after year. The Giants, as much as I hate them, use the free agent and trade markets judiciously, to fill in the occassional hole on their roster, not as a major component of their roster-building.

And the Giants and Eagles both have TWO 1st-round picks next year.

if we get 2 comp picks and trade down from the first round, we should net out at least 7 picks in the next draft, including at least a 2 and 3 among them.. you dont need 10 picks every year, and in fact, there usually isnt room for that many on the roster.

if we hit on 5 out of 7 picks, plus 1 or 2 free agents and possibly one or 2 players making the jump from PS to roster, that will provide an infusion of about 10 new players on the roster.. that is about all a team can handle without going into full rebuild mode

the trick is hitting on those picks

[Moe]

(3) A lot of people here seem to think that Kerry Brown is on IR. He isn't. We cut him with an injury settlement. He is not on our practice squad. In fact, I don't think he is on anyone's pracrtice squad or team. I liked him coming out of school too and was glad we signed him. Maybe we will sign him for camp next year and give him another shot.

The last entry about him on KFFL is-
"The Washington Redskins have placed OG Kerry Brown (shoulder) on Injured Reserve after he cleared waivers. He is out for the 2008 season. "

I don't quite understand how they could designate him as such after he was waived, but it sounds like the Skins still retain some measure of retention over him. Weird.

[BurgundyNGold]

The last entry about him on KFFL is-
"The Washington Redskins have placed OG Kerry Brown (shoulder) on Injured Reserve after he cleared waivers. He is out for the 2008 season. "

I don't quite understand how they could designate him as such after he was waived, but it sounds like the Skins still retain some measure of retention over him. Weird.
It's a special kind of IR placement. This is what some folks were advocating we do with Durant Brooks.

[Skins7ny]

The Giants made a trade that you would have condemned for sheer idiocy when they gave up 3 pro bowlers for Eli. Thats still not a good deal on points.

The Eagles aren't the drafters they were ever hyped to be, the Giants don't have 2 1sts. They have 2 2nds.
I was happy when they made that trade because I thought the Giants gave up too much, but I didn't fault them for making a deal for a developmental QB that they believed in. Deals for a (prospective) franchise QB are judged by different criteria than any other position.

You are wrong about the Giants. As it stands right now, they have 2 1sts. The Shockey trade was for a 2nd and a 5th, but at the time the trade was made, the Saints had already traded away their 2nd for Jonathan Vilma (it was a 4th that escalated to a 2nd if Vilma met certain playing time criteria). Vilma is almost certainly going to hit that criteria. The Giants accounted for this in the Shockey trade, providing that if the Saints don't have their 2nd to trade to them, the trade becomes a 1st instead of a 2nd and 5th. I am surprised you didn't know that.

The last entry about him on KFFL is-
"The Washington Redskins have placed OG Kerry Brown (shoulder) on Injured Reserve after he cleared waivers. He is out for the 2008 season. "

I don't quite understand how they could designate him as such after he was waived, but it sounds like the Skins still retain some measure of retention over him. Weird.
I think KFFL has it wrong. He is not on our website as being on IR.
It's a special kind of IR placement. This is what some folks were advocating we do with Durant Brooks.
There is only one IR list. The IR/waived designation, to my understanding, works like this:
*You cannot waive a player who is injured, so you must either carry him on your roster or IR him.
*The IR/waived designation allows a team to place the player on IR with the proviso that he is automatically waived once he heals from his injury. In other words, unlike players with a straight IR designation, he does not get to stick around all year and get paid (the way say Phillip Daniels and Reed Doughty are).
*Most players, rather than sitting on IR for an indefinite period, accept a buyout offered by the team. The team wins because they get to immediately waive a player that they otherwise would not be allowed to waive (and don't have to pay for his medical treatment or allow him to rehab at the training facility). The player wins because he gets cash now for what is usually a short-term injury, and he gains his immediate freedom.
The correct designation for such a player is "waived/injured".
*The team that waives/injured a player cannot re-sign that player until the date that the team had evaluated the player's injury to completely heal.

I believe that Kerry Brown accepted the Skins' buyout offer, becoming an immediate, albeit injured, free agent.

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

It's a special kind of IR placement. This is what some folks were advocating we do with Durant Brooks.

I hope so. I really liked his signing last year and I hope he at least makes our PS in 2009.

[Skins7ny]

Here is a link on the Giants/Shockey story:.
Vilma has to play 85% of the Saints defensive snaps, and he has to re-sign with the Saints in the off-season. He has played every game, although I don't know if he gets taken out on passing downs (I doubt it).

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/07/22/giants-could-get-a-first-rounder-for-shockey/

[akhhorus]

I was happy when they made that trade because I thought the Giants gave up too much, but I didn't fault them for making a deal for a developmental QB that they believed in. Deals for a (prospective) franchise QB are judged by different criteria than any other position.

You are wrong about the Giants. As it stands right now, they have 2 1sts. The Shockey trade was for a 2nd and a 5th, but at the time the trade was made, the Saints had already traded away their 2nd for Jonathan Vilma (it was a 4th that escalated to a 2nd if Vilma met certain playing time criteria). Vilma is almost certainly going to hit that criteria. The Giants accounted for this in the Shockey trade, providing that if the Saints don't have their 2nd to trade to them, the trade becomes a 1st instead of a 2nd and 5th. I am surprised you didn't know that.


If the Saints resign Vilma before the end of the season, then they send their 2009 2nd to the Jets. If thats the case, the Giants get the Saints 2010 1st, not their 2009 one.

lLink (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/2008/07/22/2008-07-22_with_jeremy_shockey_gone_steve_smith_and.html)

When the Saints traded a second- and fifth-round pick in the 2009 draft to the Giants on Monday for the disgruntled tight end, they used the second-round pick that they might have to send to the Jets as part of their trade for linebacker Jonathan Vilma. If that happens, then the Saints' deal with the Giants would change and they would have to give them a 2010 first-rounder.

Vilma was traded to the Saints in February for a fourth-round pick in 2008 and a conditional pick in 2009 that could be in the second or third round. It would be in the second if Vilma plays in at least 85% of the defensive plays this season and signs a contract extension before the end of the season. Of course, those are two things the Saints control.

[BurgundyNGold]

I think KFFL has it wrong. He is not on our website as being on IR.

There is only one IR list. The IR/waived designation, to my understanding, works like this:
*You cannot waive a player who is injured, so you must either carry him on your roster or IR him.
*The IR/waived designation allows a team to place the player on IR with the proviso that he is automatically waived once he heals from his injury. In other words, unlike players with a straight IR designation, he does not get to stick around all year and get paid (the way say Phillip Daniels and Reed Doughty are).
*Most players, rather than sitting on IR for an indefinite period, accept a buyout offered by the team. The team wins because they get to immediately waive a player that they otherwise would not be allowed to waive (and don't have to pay for his medical treatment or allow him to rehab at the training facility). The player wins because he gets cash now for what is usually a short-term injury, and he gains his immediate freedom.
The correct designation for such a player is "waived/injured".
*The team that waives/injured a player cannot re-sign that player until the date that the team had evaluated the player's injury to completely heal.

I believe that Kerry Brown accepted the Skins' buyout offer, becoming an immediate, albeit injured, free agent.
There has to be another designation that allows the Redskins to retain the player's rights, otherwise they would just reach an injury settlement and cut him or waive him outright. They would not have waived him and then resigned him, which is what KFFL and the WaPo both reported.

[shally]

ourlads does not have brown listed onour IR list, so my guess is that he was waived, injured and we dont have his rights any more

we do have clark and isaiah ross on our PS as OL players

[BurgundyNGold]

I hope so. I really liked his signing last year and I hope he at least makes our PS in 2009.
Me too. I liked Crummey, as well. Hated to see him go... especially since we don't really have a backup C.

[BurgundyNGold]

ourlads does not have brown listed onour IR list, so my guess is that he was waived, injured and we dont have his rights any more

we do have clark and isaiah ross on our PS as OL players
And we have Matt "Takes Bad Angles But Makes Up For It With No Speed And Playing Too Upright" Sinclair on IR. Ugh.

[AliBabba]

Me too. I liked Crummey, as well. Hated to see him go... especially since we don't really have a backup C.
ahem, we barely have a starting center

[BurgundyNGold]

ahem, we barely have a starting center
Touche. More fodder for the bitter flame, lol.

[Meatsnack]

ahem, we barely have a starting center

There are times when it sucks to be right...

[AliBabba]

There are times when it sucks to be right...
The silver lining is that I think Rabach could soon make an excellent backup center for us addressing that need.

[skinsfan36]

ourlads does not have brown listed onour IR list, so my guess is that he was waived, injured and we dont have his rights any more

we do have clark and isaiah ross on our PS as OL players

redskins.com does

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

redskins.com does
If you're talking about Kerry Brown he is not on redskins.com IR list - I just checked.

[shally]

If you're talking about Kerry Brown he is not on redskins.com IR list - I just checked.

i dont think he is either...

[Moe]

The silver lining is that I think Rabach could soon make an excellent backup center for us addressing that need.

I might be wrong, but didn't Baltimore transition him to C from OG? If they find his replacement at C, then he's a viable multitasker I guess.

[Skins7ny]

And we have Matt "Takes Bad Angles But Makes Up For It With No Speed And Playing Too Upright" Sinclair on IR. Ugh.
I believe that Sinclair was offered an injury settlement and refused it, which is why he is on IR. My recollection is that he had a bad back injury, the type that could end his career.

Meanwhile, I read that Doughty had fusion surgery on his vertebra. I didn't think that teams allowed players with fused vertebra on the field. Maybe Shally can shed some light on that? I remember reading that article and thinking that Doughty's career is over. I hope I am wrong.

[Nomad]

I have been reading in various threads everyone's prescription for what we need in the off-season. A new OT to replace Janesn, a new C to replace Rabach, a new LB to replace Marcus Washington, a DT, a DE, a OG, etc.

What I am wondering is, how does everybody expect to solve these problems when we only have 4 draft choices next year?
The free agency market is not the answer because (1) we have done it in past and it has proven not to work (2) most teams have gotten much wiser about locking up their young talent before they hit the FA market and (3) we probably will have to cut players to get under the cap next year (I know the FO is masterful in manipulating the cap every year, but unless we know in advance that 2010 will be an uncapped year, we probably will be limited to 1 or 2 FAs this off-season).

The problem as I see it is that this roster is the same roster that was built by Joe Gibbs to win in the 3rd and 4th year of Gibbs 2.0. The only real difference between this year's roster and last year's is the 9 draftees, only one of whom has seen the field for any significant PT. In other words, this roster was built for the past, not for the future.

Of the 53 guys on our roster now, 26 will be in their 30s next year!. That is 1/2 the roster!. That has to be tops in the league!!!

Some of those guys are clearly in need of being replaced. But how are we going to do that when we only have four picks next year? Even if (as I expect) some of Vinny's 2008 draftees end up being solid players, we are still behind the 8-ball in terms of building the roster with a long-term plan, assuming we even have one. Gibbs, bless him, built this team with an eye towards making the Super Bowl in year 3 and/or year 4, and picked players and negotiated contracts accordingly. He largely ignored the draft except to get one starter per year (two tops) at the tops of the drafts whom he thought could contribute quickly and who filled immediate openings. Gibbs' only real gambit for the future was the trade for Jason, and he made that thinking he was going to get playoff wins out of Brunell. Now we have an old roster that has to be largely overhauled within the next 3 years, but we don't have the ammunition to do it. Even if we did, does anyone here have lots of confidence that Vinny (and Danny?) have the ability to use that ammunition wisely to refill the roster?

I don't think this FO will ever go into rebuilding mode, and it does not seem to recognize what we all recognize-that there are areas of the team that need to be overhauled. We need to get younger and deeper, and we need to stop trading away draft picks. Instead, we will probably just continue to act as if we are one player away from the Super Bowl (Jason Taylor, anyone?). Hell, it wouldn't shock me if we throw our #1 at Cincinnati for Ocho Stinko this off-season.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic about the future. If it is any consolation, I do think we are going to go 10-6 and make the playoffs this year, which I am thoroughly enjoying, even with our recent problems. I just keep reading about all the great plans some of us have for the off-season, and I am wondering where all these new players are going to come from. And heaven help us if guys like Kelly, Thomas, Rinehart, Tryon, Moore, etc. don't turn into players, because that will push us further behind the 8-ball.

I have made this draft observation numerous times, and agree wholeheartedly. Not only do we have fewer picks, every team in our division has 10 plus picks. And what if Dallas actually hires a competent coach and stops underachieving?

Still, good to be winning, and enjoying it. Time limited, great post as always.

[shally]

I believe that Sinclair was offered an injury settlement and refused it, which is why he is on IR. My recollection is that he had a bad back injury, the type that could end his career.

Meanwhile, I read that Doughty had fusion surgery on his vertebra. I didn't think that teams allowed players with fused vertebra on the field. Maybe Shally can shed some light on that? I remember reading that article and thinking that Doughty's career is over. I hope I am wrong.

i think that doughty is clearly at far greater risk after a fusion than if he had just had a disk surgery.. better that he be a DB than a lineman or even a linebacker, because playing upright is far better than playing in a crouch..

still, if i were guessing i would say it is no better than 50/50 he comes back from this surgery and can play next year. it takes nearly a year to fully fuse so he might not be ready for camp even under the best circumstances

[shally]

I might be wrong, but didn't Baltimore transition him to C from OG? If they find his replacement at C, then he's a viable multitasker I guess.

you are absolutely correct.. i believe he started out as a guard with Bmore..
but he could end up as our former centers lennie friedman and moore, neither of whom distinguished themselves at either position.. although i think friedman is still on the browns roster (or perhaps IR for them??)

[PHIL32]

I believe we are in good shape for the future with the exception of offensive
line .We deperately need a right tackle as a starter.Jansen is horrible in pass protection and does not allow Campbell time.At some point this season I am afraid it will cause Campbell to get hurt.

There is also no depth at center or guard positions.Heyer should start at RT
for the balance of the year.He then can be graded as a long term starter or
backup.Is Reinhart a LT or guard.He was a four year starter in college as a
LT.

All good organizations build thru the draft.We are fortunate that 2009 Draft
will be very strong in OT.We should use both #1 and #3 on OT.If neccesary
use 2010 choices to add picks.The draft is also strong at Center position.If succesful 2010 draft can be used on defensive line.

Last years draft will be a good one down the road.It is disapointing that the three #2 picks are not producing.However receivers usually do not produce until second and third years.










:dalassuk::moon1:

[ChiefPowhatan17]

Since we only have a 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 6th for 2009. I say we try to trade our 1st rounder for 2 seconds or a second and a high 3rd. It would have worked this year if the 2nd rounders had panned out, but we are still waiting.

But, I would trade out of round 1. Unless, we have the opportunity to get a really great player. ie Taylor Mays or Kam Chancellor, type player.

Not saying we need a Safety, just an example of the type of player.

Concerns/ needs: OT, OG, LB, DE, DT, CB.

[wide_awake]

This upcoming draft needs to be almost all offensive lineman. Do it now so that by the time our young receiving core hits their stride we'll have a youthful, productive offensive line to go with it.

If we neglect it now, and Thomas/Davis/Kelly step up it when our o-line is weak, it will be wasted years.

[BurgundyNGold]

Since we only have a 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 6th for 2009. I say we try to trade our 1st rounder for 2 seconds or a second and a high 3rd. It would have worked this year if the 2nd rounders had panned out, but we are still waiting.

But, I would trade out of round 1. Unless, we have the opportunity to get a really great player. ie Taylor Mays or Kam Chancellor, type player.

Not saying we need a Safety, just an example of the type of player.

Concerns/ needs: OT, OG, LB, DE, DT, CB.
Dependent upon where we draft, trading our 1st for two 2nds might not be possible. You might get two 2nds but one might be in 2009 and the other in 2010. If you are looking for draft picks in the 2009 draft, you might have to settle for a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th in 2009.

That said, you would also need a trading partner willing to give you what you consider to be fair value for your 1st. That is usually easier said than done.

[Skins7ny]

I have made this draft observation numerous times, and agree wholeheartedly. Not only do we have fewer picks, every team in our division has 10 plus picks. And what if Dallas actually hires a competent coach and stops underachieving?

Still, good to be winning, and enjoying it. Time limited, great post as always.
I did not realize that (bolded part). That stinks.
It will be interesting to see if the head coaches change in Dallas and Philly in the off-season. Hopefully, that will set those two teams back a year, although a bunch of first-year coaches are doing very well this year (us included). Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate them!
i think that doughty is clearly at far greater risk after a fusion than if he had just had a disk surgery.. better that he be a DB than a lineman or even a linebacker, because playing upright is far better than playing in a crouch..

still, if i were guessing i would say it is no better than 50/50 he comes back from this surgery and can play next year. it takes nearly a year to fully fuse so he might not be ready for camp even under the best circumstances
So it sounds like you think that the fusion surgery does not disqualify Doughty from resuming his career. That is good to hear.

[smoak]

I don't agree that signing veterans is a failed approach. Gibbs built our team around a mix of succesful veteran signings/trades as well as star first and second rounders. We have certainly had our share of FA signings blow up in our faces but we have had as many work out very well.

Agreed. I think trading for veterans > 30 years of age and THEN signing them to extensions is the issue. Gibbs did a great job bringing in some key veteran players like LF. I just don't like trading for guys b/c it rarely works out, and while drafting is far from an exact science, I think it is the right way to build your core. Veterans are the seasoning to a good pot of stew... they make it great.

Just MO though.

[Meatsnack]

Agreed. I think trading for veterans > 30 years of age and THEN signing them to extensions is the issue. Gibbs did a great job bringing in some key veteran players like LF. I just don't like trading for guys b/c it rarely works out, and while drafting is far from an exact science, I think it is the right way to build your core. Veterans are the seasoning to a good pot of stew... they make it great.

Just MO though.

I look at it like this: we signed London Fletcher who I think was 32 when we signed him and he has been all that and a bag of chips. We signed Jason Taylor a year later at about the same age with a similar history of consistency, Pro Bowl level production, and lack of injury history and it has come up snake-eyes for us. Will Taylor be productive with his limbs working again? Probably, but until now it has been a bad situation for us.

You can draw the same conclusions about younger players, though, as far as signing risks go. We signed Marcus Washington, Cornie Griffin, B Lloyd, and Archuletta all in their mid 20's. Washington was a mid-tier, up and coming FA, Griffin was called a bust or at least underachiever in the NY media, Lloyd was a fantastic athlete in search of a "real QB" to blossom, and Archuletta was the "freak of training" who could enforce the LOS in front of a deep Sean Taylor. We got about the same split.

In the end, I think you are right on, FA's are a way to get well quickly at a position of need if you pick right because veterans get up to speed quickly. If you pick wrong, it is like blowing a top 10 draft pick, you cripple your cap and hinder your team for years to come. That said, I really hope we can land Haynesworth. :D

[shally]

Dependent upon where we draft, trading our 1st for two 2nds might not be possible. You might get two 2nds but one might be in 2009 and the other in 2010. If you are looking for draft picks in the 2009 draft, you might have to settle for a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th in 2009.

That said, you would also need a trading partner willing to give you what you consider to be fair value for your 1st. That is usually easier said than done.

i dont think that will be a big problem in the second half of the first round..
the big issue is moving picks from 5-15 because most teams realize that players from 5-15 are seldom any better risks than from 15-32.. but once you get to the latter half of the first round the cost of signing these picks drops and the cost to trade for these picks remains reasonable.
a lot of times teams fall in love with a particular player-- especially a qb-- and that is when the action happens.

i think we will be able to move our first rounder.. you are correct, we may not find a team with 2 second round picks the way we did in 2008.. but i certainly think we will be able to find someone who will give us a 2, plus other considerations-- say a 4 this year and a 3 next year ??-- whatever the math works out to.. and between the couple of comp picks we should get for brunell and prioleau, we will net out 7 picks for this draft.. that will be enough if we hit on most of them..

dont forget, we used 2 picks for a punter and a #3 qb.. i dont expect we will be doing that again.. we wont need another TE and if we sign Hall and retain Springs (as much as i grit my teeth, i have to admit that as long as Blache is running the defense, we probably keep Springles) we arent likely to need more than corner, at the most... that leaves quite a few picks to spend on both lines, plus a shot at a LB or a RB..

and that doesnt even take into account the possibility of signing a free agent or 2 to supplement the draft.. or college free agents...

there will be new players enough next year..