Is Barack Obama Black?

[redskin_rich]

Maybe I'm just bored tonight but looking through world news, this jumped out as a topic that some might find worthy of discussion. I know I have heard some comments from people debating this, which I dismissed on the basic basis of how one is defined by their birth certificate, drivers license, etc.

If we are to define one's race as mixed, I think a whole lot of the US population would fit under that category. I, as an 8th generation American have so many mixes, I could qualify for Heinz 57 sauce. Maybe not 57 different blends but enough to not be considered anything else but American and caucasian.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7735503.stm

[akhhorus]

This smells like semantics lol. Obama, by anyone's definition, is african-american. He's not descended from slaves, but we're going to have to have DNA tests to determine that cohort.

[CNYSkinFan]

well he considers himself Black...and I think that trumps just about anything else.

Seriously. I know some people have made a big deal about him being half white but the I think many of mixed race would say the prejudice they have felt at times in their life was just as great (if not more since there is a stigma sometimes in the black community).

furthermore if we are to look at the term african American I would say Obama qualifies for that more then most other black Americans since he is only a generation removed.

[redskin_rich]

This smells like semantics lol.
It reeks of jealousy, IMO.

[BurgundyNGold]

Since his father was black and his mother was white, logic dictates that he should be able to decide what he is for himself. He's equally as much white as he is black, so if he can be accepted as "black" there really should be no reasonable argument for him to not be accepted as "white", as well.

The greater logic should dictate that it doesn't matter. The whole classification system is racist, IMO. Its roots go back to the slave block.

A more incendiary discussion might be one about his social background. He is "black" in America but he has no slave lineage and grew up with comparatively little of the AA experience. So, is he in fact, AA?

[Keino]

He's as Black as I am. But let me offer some links here that discuss "race mixture" and "racial designation".

One Drop Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule)

Quadroon/Octaroon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadroon)

Mulatto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto)

But I an tell you from my personal experience that what the author writes here is very true:



STARES

Even so, the question whether Obama is black or mixed-race reflects a basic misunderstanding of the experience of those of us who have grown up in interracial families, particularly those of us of African descent, born in the post-Civil Rights period.


Many of us forged a black identity, one that was not at odds with being mixed-race, but arose out of our experiences as mixed people
We (I have an African American father and an Irish American mother) were raised on the front lines of racial change, where the new rules about interracial intimacy often clashed with the old - both in public and in our own families.

The affection we were so comfortable showing our white mothers at home drew stares, and worse, from both whites and blacks in public.

It was in our families where we first felt love and protection as well as the first sting of racial prejudice.

And many of us forged a black identity, one that was not at odds with being mixed-race, but arose out of our experiences as mixed people: from an awareness that the racial dilemma we were born into has its deepest roots in anti-black prejudice.

For us, being black and mixed-race are not mutually exclusive. We have learned to live with the contradictions.

Perhaps it's time for everyone else to learn to live with them too.

One of the most distinct childhood memories I have, being born in the early 70's is the number of stares, some open mouthed, that my family would get doing normal family things like going out to dinner, driving to church etc. It always angered me. Always. The one thing that always helped me deal was my parents being consistent in their message: "People who have a problem with you because of your skin color, or your parents because of their skin color, are the ones with the problem....not you."

But I can confirm what Ms. DaCosta says above. I forged a Black identity, in large part, because I had white cousins call me "Nigger" while black cousins called me "cousin".

I suspect that Obama, like the author and myself, have some similar experiences with regard to family and prejudice. He alludes to it in his Race Speech in Philadelphia.

[redskin_rich]

The greater logic should dictate that it doesn't matter. The whole classification system is racist, IMO. Its roots go back to the slave block.
Does it? I would think it goes back farther than that.

[NCskinsfanatic]

I don't care what he wants to call himself, whether he refers to himself jokingly as a mut(like when discussing the whitehouse dog), an african american, white or anything else. I just hope he does a good job as a president, a man, and an american first and foremost. I dont consider myself the type to harbor resentment because of skin color, nationality, etc. I'm Irish, english, scotish, german, italian and cherokee ...and thats just what I can trace lol. I hope as Barak begins his presidency that the racial lines that divide much of the country can gradually be erased and eventually eraticated. I wasnt raised to view an individual by the color of his/her skin and I raise my son accordingly. He chooses his own friends and will choose who he wishes to date and one day marry and I dont think the pigment in their skin will be a determing factor.

[Keino]

Does it? I would think it goes back farther than that.

I would argue that it goes back to the 1500's, about the time when Europeans began to explore the world on the heels of expelling the Moors from the Iberian Peninsula and southern Italy.

I agree with BNG in that the whole idea of classification based on a wholly Social construct is inherently racist. It is however, ingrained in the culture in the Americas (Not limited to the United States at all). That said, the US has always had a more "narrow" definition of Blackness compared to say, Brazil or Peru, where significant portions of the population have African Ancestry but are designated "Moreno" or "Mestizo" as opposed to "Negro".

[BurgundyNGold]

Does it? I would think it goes back farther than that.
The current system of categorization of race in America (specifically blacks) goes back to the methods used during slave times. I believe that the current categorization is that if you are 1/8 black (that is if your great grandfather is black but all others are white) you can still be classified as black.

Things get interesting if you have a black parent and an Hispanic parent. I think then the child is considered Hispanic. Not sure what would happen if one parent is black and the other is Asian or Pacific Islander. Keino might know more about this.

To me, the whole concept of categorization by pigmentation this way is insulting and counterproductive. I have always puzzled at how this practice, while being overtly racist, could possibly be advanced by progressives. I fail to see how categorizing and perpetuating our superficial differences will help us, as a society, to see past them.

[redskin_rich]

I would argue that it goes back to the 1500's, about the time when Europeans began to explore the world on the heels of expelling the Moors from the Iberian Peninsula and southern Italy.

I agree with BNG in that the whole idea of classification based on a wholly Social construct is inherently racist. It is however, ingrained in the culture in the Americas (Not limited to the United States at all). That said, the US has always had a more "narrow" definition of Blackness compared to say, Brazil or Peru, where significant portions of the population have African Ancestry but are designated "Moreno" or "Mestizo" as opposed to "Negro".
So, are only Africans or those of African ancestry considered black?

At the place where I used to work, we had an African guy named Kwami working in our warehouse. I was talking with him about some shipment one day and this truck driver comes in the building and starts jokingly calling Kwame black this and black that. I look over at him and ask him why he is saying all this when he is also black and he says he ain't black, he is Jamaican.

[redskin_rich]

The current system of categorization of race in America (specifically blacks) goes back to the methods used during slave times. I believe that the current categorization is that if you are 1/8 black (that is if your great grandfather is black but all others are white) you can still be classified as black.

Things get interesting if you have a black parent and an Hispanic parent. I think then the child is considered Hispanic. Not sure what would happen if one parent is black and the other is Asian or Pacific Islander. Keino might know more about this.

To me, the whole concept of categorization by pigmentation this way is insulting and counterproductive. I have always puzzled at how this practice, while being overtly racist, could possibly be advanced by progressives. I fail to see how categorizing and perpetuating our superficial differences will help us, as a society, to see past them.
I agree to a point but how else are we to describe ones appearance?

[Keino]

Things get interesting if you have a black parent and an Hispanic parent. I think then the child is considered Hispanic. Not sure what would happen if one parent is black and the other is Asian or Pacific Islander. Keino might know more about this.



The designations of blackness remain the same, but many kids on those instances check "Other" or "Multi-racial". In fact on the Hispanic designation prior to 1997 it would say "Hispanic, non-african origin". In 1997 the OMB changed this and defined the various Racial Designations as follows:

It should be noted that what they have done now is give the below racial designations and then have an Ethnicity designation "Hispanic" or "Non-Hispanic".


-- American Indian or Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America), and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.

-- Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

-- Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. Terms such as "Haitian" or "Negro" can be used in addition to "Black or African American."

-- Hispanic or Latino. A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race. The term, "Spanish origin," can be used in addition to "Hispanic or Latino."

-- Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.

-- White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

I've always chuckled at how White is defined. I also know that there was a serious movement about the time the OMB changed how they define Race, to include on all federal applications "Multi-ethnic" and "Bi-Racial" options. That was never a concern for me, because in light of the historical context, I felt that those multi-ethnic peoples pushing this sort of thing were merely confusing the issue. Not to mention "Spanish origin" is technically European.

Here is a link to the 1997 OMB Announcement of the Revised Standards.
OMB (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg/ombdir15.html)

[BurgundyNGold]

I agree to a point but how else are we to describe ones appearance?
Why should we need to? As I think about it, the only times I can think where it really should matter is when there is an alert that goes out (law enforcement, Amber alert, etc).

[Keino]

So, are only Africans or those of African ancestry considered black?

At the place where I used to work, we had an African guy named Kwami working in our warehouse. I was talking with him about some shipment one day and this truck driver comes in the building and starts jokingly calling Kwame black this and black that. I look over at him and ask him why he is saying all this when he is also black and he says he ain't black, he is Jamaican.

I've never mety a Black Jamaican that didn't call himself Black, but what you are touching on is what I mention about the Narrow definition of Blackness that historically was in the US verses the rest of the Americas.

For example, if you tell a cat from the D.R. (Domincan Republic) of my complexion that he is Black, he will argue you tooth and nail and say no, I am "Moreno". Culturally, "Blackness" in Latin America applies to only those "Blacks" of the darkest complexions. Sadly their economic and social status is also impacted by how they are designated, another reason the D.R. Cat will argue you down.

On the other hand, Haitians have no such confusion and they share the same Island as the DR. I think that is also cultural. Haiti violently overthrew slavery and so there is a certain amount of "African or Black" pride ingrained in their culture.

[BurgundyNGold]

The designations of blackness remain the same, but many kids on those instances check "Other" or "Multi-racial". In fact on the Hispanic designation prior to 1997 it would say "Hispanic, non-african origin". In 1997 the OMB changed this and defined the various Racial Designations as follows:
So, hypothetically speaking, if a bi-racial man (half each black and white) had children with an Asian woman, the children would actually have a larger ethnicity of Asian (1/2) as opposed to other ethnicities (1/4 each black and white). Simple fractions would suggest that the children be considered Asian, no?

It should be noted that what they have done now is give the below racial designations and then have an Ethnicity designation "Hispanic" or "Non-Hispanic".
So, if you're black (Charlie Murphy, darkness black, lol) and from Cuba, you're Hispanic? This illustrates perfectly the futility of the misguided efforts of racial classification, IMO.

I've always chuckled at how White is defined. I also know that there was a serious movement about the time the OMB changed how they define Race, to include on all federal applications "Multi-ethnic" and "Bi-Racial" options. That was never a concern for me, because in light of the historical context, I felt that those multi-ethnic peoples pushing this sort of thing were merely confusing the issue. Not to mention "Spanish origin" is technically European.
With the increased mixed ethnicities throughout the world, I think these clowns and their classifications are trying to put a house fire out by pissing on it, lol. They're so busy trying to classify people into superficial containers that missing the big picture.

Here is a link to the 1997 OMB Announcement of the Revised Standards.
OMB (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg/ombdir15.html)
Ugh.

BTW, in protest of this whole thing, I changed my racial designation to "Other" when I last changed my driver's license. I will not be classified, bitches!

[redskin_rich]

I've never mety a Black Jamaican that didn't call himself Black, but what you are touching on is what I mention about the Narrow definition of Blackness that historically was in the US verses the rest of the Americas.

For example, if you tell a cat from the D.R. (Domincan Republic) of my complexion that he is Black, he will argue you tooth and nail and say no, I am "Moreno". Culturally, "Blackness" in Latin America applies to only those "Blacks" of the darkest complexions. Sadly their economic and social status is also impacted by how they are designated, another reason the D.R. Cat will argue you down.

On the other hand, Haitians have no such confusion and they share the same Island as the DR. I think that is also cultural. Haiti violently overthrew slavery and so there is a certain amount of "African or Black" pride ingrained in their culture.It threw me for a loop. I think maybe he was just reacting to me calling him out for using epithets in the first place. That or he was truly racist. I don't know because I didn't care to talk with him anymore at that point.

[BurgundyNGold]

I've never mety a Black Jamaican that didn't call himself Black, but what you are touching on is what I mention about the Narrow definition of Blackness that historically was in the US verses the rest of the Americas.

For example, if you tell a cat from the D.R. (Domincan Republic) of my complexion that he is Black, he will argue you tooth and nail and say no, I am "Moreno". Culturally, "Blackness" in Latin America applies to only those "Blacks" of the darkest complexions. Sadly their economic and social status is also impacted by how they are designated, another reason the D.R. Cat will argue you down.

On the other hand, Haitians have no such confusion and they share the same Island as the DR. I think that is also cultural. Haiti violently overthrew slavery and so there is a certain amount of "African or Black" pride ingrained in their culture.
Haitians wouldn't be considered Hispanic because they were colonized by the French. There is no Spanish lineage.

[akhhorus]

There was a genetic study done of a suburban high school in PA just to see what the genetic heritage of the younger generation was. And they found that over 75-80% of the students in this suburban-predominatly white high school were multi-racial. Racial designations have more to do with appearance and less to do with genetics lol

[redskin_rich]

BTW, in protest of this whole thing, I changed my racial designation to "Other" when I last changed my driver's license. I will not be classified, bitches!
Yeah, I would classify you as "other." lol

[akhhorus]

BTW, in protest of this whole thing, I changed my racial designation to "Other" when I last changed my driver's license. I will not be classified, bitches!

Too late. White people already traded you to the Gypsys as part of the deal for Eminem.

[Keino]

Haitians wouldn't be considered Hispanic because they were colonized by the French. There is no Spanish lineage.

Understood, and I wasn't implying that Hatians have Spanish lineage, only juxtaposing the attitudes on racial designation between 2 countries occupying a very small piece of land.

[BurgundyNGold]

Too late. White people already traded you to the Gypsys as part of the deal for Eminem.
My new gypsy name is Rom Badass, lol.

[Keino]

So, hypothetically speaking, if a bi-racial man (half each black and white) had children with an Asian woman, the children would actually have a larger ethnicity of Asian (1/2) as opposed to other ethnicities (1/4 each black and white). Simple fractions would suggest that the children be considered Asian, no?

No Hypothetical about it. That is my family (Well technically Filipino is Pacific Islander). My children are "other" on every app I have filled out for them. Hvaing said that fractions and DNA have very little to do with it. Race is a "Social Construct" originally used to designate the haves and have nots.


So, if you're black (Charlie Murphy, darkness black, lol) and from Cuba, you're Hispanic? This illustrates perfectly the futility of the misguided efforts of racial classification, IMO.

Exactly. And A Black Cuban darker than my father would be offended at the notion that he is Black.


With the increased mixed ethnicities throughout the world, I think these clowns and their classifications are trying to put a house fire out by pissing on it, lol. They're so busy trying to classify people into superficial containers that missing the big picture.

Agreed. I'd like to see us move beyond trying to classify people based on phenotypes.


Ugh.

BTW, in protest of this whole thing, I changed my racial designation to "Other" when I last changed my driver's license. I will not be classified, bitches!


There are a number of people, especially muti-ethnic people, that feel this exact same way.

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

does'nt you father's race determine the race you are listed as?obama's mother was white,and his dad was black.does'nt that make him and his sister legally black?

[Keino]

does'nt you father's race determine the race you are listed as?obama's mother was white,and his dad was black.does'nt that make him and his sister legally black?

That may have been the case years ago, but when I was coming up and had to make the designation for the purposes of securing a SS Card (Back then, they didn't issue them to babies like they do now), I had to pick one or the other......

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

well hell,if he would have been a rainbow colored person,i would have still voted for him.

[BurgundyNGold]

well hell,if he would have been a rainbow colored person,i would have still voted for him.
Wouldn't that have made him gay?

[redskin_rich]

Wouldn't that have made him gay?

Not necessarily...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7773/rainbowmangr2.jpg

[BurgundyNGold]

Not necessarily...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7773/rainbowmangr2.jpg

That is evidence of nothing, lol.

[BurgundyNGold]

There is a great article in the WaPo today proclaiming that Barack Obama is not black...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802219.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[Keino]

There is a great article in the WaPo today proclaiming that Barack Obama is not black...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802219.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

The problem with her premise, (and similarly styled arguments from bi-racial and mutli-ethnic people) is that the one drop rule is still very much in effect and has never been fully removed from the Nation's psyche. In fact her use of the Langston Hughes quote, while appearing to be supporting her argument, actually undermines the thing. Hughes wrote that passage as late as the 1930's some 100+ years post introduction of the "one-drop rule".

Now where I agree with her is that we should make all efforts to get the language and racial designations out of our nation's consciousness. However, that, just like creating an environment of racial equality, is a process and I don't think will truly take place until our generation gives way to the next.....

The reason that we cling to the tired paradigm that says a Bi-racial man is Black, is because the reality he ultimately lives in America will be that of a Black man.


Furthermore, I take exception with her Spanish to English translation......"Platano" is the spanish word for "Plantain" and the spanish word for Banana is "Banana".....Plantains and Bananas look similar but they are distinctly different.....

[guess88]

Interesting convo here, seems like most of it's been well covered. I'll only add this one thing...

Sometime in the 2nd grade when I was a bit darker (possibly at the beginning of the school year), I was designated my blackness by a light colored classmate named Leon, who is by social construct considered African American. His words inducting me to blackness came as followed:

"David it don't matter what people say to you, you're still black"

Though slightly baffled considering I'm 100% Asian (though a mix of 2 countries) I took the label in pride. Oh Leon, wherever you may be, bless the 2nd grade class of South Lake Elm. 1987.

How this helps or contributes to the discussion I have no idea.

[PyroGenic]

The problem with her premise, (and similarly styled arguments from bi-racial and mutli-ethnic people) is that the one drop rule is still very much in effect and has never been fully removed from the Nation's psyche. In fact her use of the Langston Hughes quote, while appearing to be supporting her argument, actually undermines the thing. Hughes wrote that passage as late as the 1930's some 100+ years post introduction of the "one-drop rule".

Now where I agree with her is that we should make all efforts to get the language and racial designations out of our nation's consciousness. However, that, just like creating an environment of racial equality, is a process and I don't think will truly take place until our generation gives way to the next.....

The reason that we cling to the tired paradigm that says a Bi-racial man is Black, is because the reality he ultimately lives in America will be that of a Black man.


Furthermore, I take exception with her Spanish to English translation......"Platano" is the spanish word for "Plantain" and the spanish word for Banana is "Banana".....Plantains and Bananas look similar but they are distinctly different.....

That actually depends entirely on what country you're in. I don't really have anything substantial to say, just wanted to let you know.

[guess88]

That actually depends entirely on what country you're in. I don't really have anything substantial to say, just wanted to let you know.

What matters is that they're both delicious fried. :)

[Seebs]

I find interesting that what we call Métis in France or Mestizo as Keino was describing is not sth so spread. I'm caucasian, my wife is asian and our splendid little girl is Métisse. If i would have to qualify Obama, for me he wouldn't be black or white, he would be Métis. It is strange for me that you have t be black or white or whatever. you are what you are, and if your métis, it is all the best! btw, I really find this word nice. better than bi-sth or mixed...
Let me ask a candid question (no finger pointing from me), could all of this thing in the US be linked to the segregation ?

[BurgundyNGold]

I find interesting that what we call Métis in France or Mestizo as Keino was describing is not sth so spread. I'm caucasian, my wife is asian and our splendid little girl is Métisse. If i would have to qualify Obama, for me he wouldn't be black or white, he would be Métis. It is strange for me that you have t be black or white or whatever. you are what you are, and if your métis, it is all the best! btw, I really find this word nice. better than bi-sth or mixed...
Let me ask a candid question (no finger pointing from me), could all of this thing in the US be linked to the segregation ?
I don't think classification rules are related to segregation but they are both rooted in racism. Many classification rules predate the American segregation period.

[Keino]

I don't think classification rules are related to segregation but they are both rooted in racism. Many classification rules predate the American segregation period.

I do think the American narrowly defined perceptions of Black and White are rooted in the Ante-bellum Plantiation system and susbequent segregation period. As I mentioned earlier, the racism and chattel slavery was common to all of the Americas, but how those societies evolved (and ended slavery for that matter) in to what we have today is distinctly different from the US experience. For example, in South America, Miscegenation was actually encouraged by the Spaniard Colonists and to a lesser extent the Portuguese Colonists, while the English and French Colonists tended to discourage it. The result is in South America and Caribbean you have a bunch of different "racial classifications" being born into existence, while, as a part of discouraging miscegenation you have "One drop of tainted blood" classified as "Negro" in the US.

[BurgundyNGold]

I do think the American narrowly defined perceptions of Black and White are rooted in the Ante-bellum Plantiation system and susbequent segregation period. As I mentioned earlier, the racism and chattel slavery was common to all of the Americas, but how those societies evolved (and ended slavery for that matter) in to what we have today is distinctly different from the US experience. For example, in South America, Miscegenation was actually encouraged by the Spaniard Colonists and to a lesser extent the Portuguese Colonists, while the English and French Colonists tended to discourage it. The result is in South America and Caribbean you have a bunch of different "racial classifications" being born into existence, while, as a part of discouraging miscegenation you have "One drop of tainted blood" classified as "Negro" in the US.
Racial classification in the US, however, was not born of segregationism. The classification terms mulatto, quadroon, octoroon and quintroon existed throughout the Americas (and I suspect Europe to some degree) long before the United States even existed.