Skins sign Dave Rayner (Kicker) and Kick Returner (Dominique Dorsey)

[GenMgr]

Competition for Suisham? First signing of the offseason maybe?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/transactions
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yDUJsUhn1a8

[JasonCampbell]

meh

[JsMaViSd]

thank you

[NCskinsfanatic]

mmmmk....

[Biggie]

Meh.

[CNYSkinFan]

championship!

[sinskin]

well I guess Graham, however the spelling, wasnt good enough for a look see?

[shally]

well I guess Graham, however the spelling, wasnt good enough for a look see?

too expensive..

[shally]

rayner has nice leg and doesnt have a lot of curve to his kicks.. no rush, of course, but he should push suisham if nothing else

[akhhorus]

A mule with the shakes is better than suisham, so this would have to be an upgrade.

[RedskinRyan]

Was Jose Cortez unavailable?

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

Was Jose Cortez unavailable?
Ugh. Lol.

[shally]

this guy has been around since 2005.. before we get too excited, he has a career average of 70 %,, with some misses inthe 30-39 yard range..

he sounds a lot like suisham, frankly...

[CarMike]

Boy, our front office is earning their money now!

[ClubSandwichGuy]

championship!
lol.


I dunno. We need a good kicker, Rayner is just OK.

[joethefan]

time to go get those season tickets..... :smash:

[colkurtz]

why not just bring in some UDFA and see which one's have the leg and mental toughness at kicker?

suisham needs more than one guy to push him.

sounds like the start of a wild off-season. NOT!

[firehawk157]

rayner has nice leg and doesnt have a lot of curve to his kicks.. no rush, of course, but he should push suisham if nothing else
We got trash to push trash. Now we just have twice the trash to deal with.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I mistakenly read "Raymer" and passed out for a few minutes.

[Patrick]

Guess they got to start somewhere ....................

[smoak]

Sometimes, the devil you know...

[warpaint]

just another example of dumb and dumber not having a clue as to what they are doing, why sign another loser in feb. is beyond my comprehension.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

I wonder if this is what Campbell meant by shocking changes.

[Skins7ny]

this guy has been around since 2005.. before we get too excited, he has a career average of 70 %,, with some misses inthe 30-39 yard range..

he sounds a lot like suisham, frankly...

There is a reason he was on the street and available to sign in early February.

He is not an upgrade. He is competition, and weak competition at that.

[Hr fan]

I mistakenly read "Raymer" and passed out for a few minutes.

lol!!

[colkurtz]

Another example of why this team can't approve with Cerrato as the talent judge.

[Red Bear]

some of the comments in this thread make me sick. sure the guy is no adam vinateri, but he is veteran competition for suisham. i get the feeling many of you would be whining about it no matter who we brung in unless its some high priced free agent kicker. in fact i think the entire HR attitude has shifted lately, too many people trying to make jokes and be sarcastic, and not enough actual discussion. its the discussion that drew me to this place not people who think they are funny

[Luis Landa]

We need a punter more then a kicker. I think Shaun Suisham probably hurt his leg sometime during the season and that's why he struggled late. he was kicking well earlier.

[shally]

We got trash to push trash. Now we just have twice the trash to deal with.


as they say, when you have 2 kickers, you have NO kickers

[HAWGZHEAD]

some of the comments in this thread make me sick. sure the guy is no adam vinateri, but he is veteran competition for suisham. i get the feeling many of you would be whining about it no matter who we brung in unless its some high priced free agent kicker. in fact i think the entire HR attitude has shifted lately, too many people trying to make jokes and be sarcastic, and not enough actual discussion. its the discussion that drew me to this place not people who think they are funny
How serious of a discussion would you like to have on the possible camp battle of 2 mediocre kickers?

[shally]

some of the comments in this thread make me sick. sure the guy is no adam vinateri, but he is veteran competition for suisham. i get the feeling many of you would be whining about it no matter who we brung in unless its some high priced free agent kicker. in fact i think the entire HR attitude has shifted lately, too many people trying to make jokes and be sarcastic, and not enough actual discussion. its the discussion that drew me to this place not people who think they are funny

true, but relax.. it is offseason for us as well................:Peace:

[CNYSkinFan]

some of the comments in this thread make me sick. sure the guy is no adam vinateri, but he is veteran competition for suisham. i get the feeling many of you would be whining about it no matter who we brung in unless its some high priced free agent kicker. in fact i think the entire HR attitude has shifted lately, too many people trying to make jokes and be sarcastic, and not enough actual discussion. its the discussion that drew me to this place not people who think they are funny
I personally know I am funny.

[csquared]

I personally know I am funny.

LOL! Nice.... But really though this is an average veteran kicker. How serious of a discussion can you have?

[CNYSkinFan]

LOL! Nice.... But really though this is an average veteran kicker. How serious of a discussion can you have?
the problem with discussion with this team is it does not matter. No matter how much we moan and gripe, Snyderratto will still do whatever they want. So it comes down to the same oold debates about whaether they are doing anything right in regards to anything football related. And I am sorry the posters who defend them I have decided are either retarded or joking. In either case it is not worth a debate.

[Red Bear]

its not just this thread, its all over the forum. and im not singling any one person out.

some of the same people crowing for competition at kicker are the same ones trashing this signing and making uncalled for jokes when you dont even know if rayner will make it to training camp. we need competition at kicker and i would rather it be a veteran than an UDFA. i think the front office is wary of paying kickers too much after john hall and tom tupa. sometimes people just need to learn to accept what we have

[Patrick]

its not just this thread, its all over the forum. and im not singling any one person out.

some of the same people crowing for competition at kicker are the same ones trashing this signing and making uncalled for jokes when you dont even know if rayner will make it to training camp. we need competition at kicker and i would rather it be a veteran than an UDFA. i think the front office is wary of paying kickers too much after john hall and tom tupa. sometimes people just need to learn to accept what we have

AND sometimes people have to learn to accept the fact that other people ( the Passionate Fan ones in particular) WILL ALWAYS complain, b*t*h and moan when thier team is not performing well (including the front office/management) and/or keeps wallowing in mediocrity.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

its not just this thread, its all over the forum. and im not singling any one person out.

some of the same people crowing for competition at kicker are the same ones trashing this signing and making uncalled for jokes when you dont even know if rayner will make it to training camp. we need competition at kicker and i would rather it be a veteran than an UDFA. i think the front office is wary of paying kickers too much after john hall and tom tupa. sometimes people just need to learn to accept what we have
Accept Vinny?


NEVER!!

[hail2skins]

its not just this thread, its all over the forum. and im not singling any one person out.

some of the same people crowing for competition at kicker are the same ones trashing this signing and making uncalled for jokes when you dont even know if rayner will make it to training camp. we need competition at kicker and i would rather it be a veteran than an UDFA. i think the front office is wary of paying kickers too much after john hall and tom tupa. sometimes people just need to learn to accept what we haveSo, what do you want to discuss about it?


Also, the Redskins have signed Domique Dorsey from the CFL Argaonauts. Supposedly he's a dangerous return man.

http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20080801/argo1_80659.jpg

[hail2skins]

its not just this thread, its all over the forum. and im not singling any one person out.

some of the same people crowing for competition at kicker are the same ones trashing this signing and making uncalled for jokes when you dont even know if rayner will make it to training camp. we need competition at kicker and i would rather it be a veteran than an UDFA. i think the front office is wary of paying kickers too much after john hall and tom tupa. sometimes people just need to learn to accept what we haveSo, you have accepted the fact that the Redskins are a mediocre team and that's ok with you?

[hail2skins]

To generate discussion, I'm including some links on Dorsey

http://unlvrebels.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/dorsey_dominique00.html

http://unlvrebels.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/dorsey_dominique00.html

http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Dominique_Dorsey

[CNYSkinFan]

To generate discussion, I'm including some links on Dorsey

http://unlvrebels.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/dorsey_dominique00.html

http://unlvrebels.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/dorsey_dominique00.html

http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Dominique_Dorsey
it's easy to be a great return man in the cfl when the field is 20 yards wider...alot more space to run. See jesse Lumsden.

I just can't get jacked up over cfl scraps and unwanted kickers. This team is the new orleans levee and Vinny is trying to put is pinky in the breach to plug it up.

[akhhorus]

So, we let this good pass rusher from the CFL go unsigned(despite, I believe, a local connection), but we decided to sign a kick returner?

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

To generate discussion, I'm including some links on Dorsey

http://unlvrebels.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/dorsey_dominique00.html

http://unlvrebels.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/dorsey_dominique00.html

http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Dominique_Dorsey
Distant cousin, Mike? :p

I just checked out some of his vids. He's a little dude with some wheels.

[shally]

So, we let this good pass rusher from the CFL go unsigned(despite, I believe, a local connection), but we decided to sign a kick returner?

it sounded like the pass rusher was a clone of chris wilson.. too small and presumably quick...

dorsey did look quick in the video i saw of him.. he is tiny at 5 7" and 170, but if he runs straight instead of side to side, he is worth trying out..

they apparently also signed some of the PS players including riley and ross, from last year.. looking for confirmation of that.

[shally]

So, we let this good pass rusher from the CFL go unsigned(despite, I believe, a local connection), but we decided to sign a kick returner?


and the biggest whiff of all might have been on gaither, the OT who went to maryland and who is now on Bmore's o line..

[silverspring]

Looks like we are looking at dorse as a potential scat back and replacement for rock. I wish we could find a scat back that could replace ARE at punt returner. These guys might be scrubs and they might not even be here by the offseason training program but at least we are looking.


So, we let this good pass rusher from the CFL go unsigned(despite, I believe, a local connection), but we decided to sign a kick returner?

We don't need to sign every cfl player that is available just because they have a local connection.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

I don't give the returner much of a shot at making it. I mean Mathis was signed last year as a FA returner and he didn't make the team.

Can he return punts? I didn't see that anywhere. We need a punt return upgrade badly.

[akhhorus]

We don't need to sign every cfl player that is available just because they have a local connection.

I didn't say we should sign him because of the local connection. I was pointing out that they didn't even make an effort to sign this guy despite him being a potential contributor to an area of need. And that since the skins like to keep tabs on the local talent, this is more mystifying.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

some of the comments in this thread make me sick. sure the guy is no adam vinateri, but he is veteran competition for suisham. i get the feeling many of you would be whining about it no matter who we brung in unless its some high priced free agent kicker. in fact i think the entire HR attitude has shifted lately, too many people trying to make jokes and be sarcastic, and not enough actual discussion. its the discussion that drew me to this place not people who think they are funny

Sometimes humor is all we have left as Redskin fans.

[silverspring]

I didn't say we should sign him because of the local connection. I was pointing out that they didn't even make an effort to sign this guy despite him being a potential contributor to an area of need. And that since the skins like to keep tabs on the local talent, this is more mystifying.

I agree with shally on this point. We don't need another lightweight speed rusher, we need a big run stopping bull rushing LDE. It is just a waste getting people that don't fit our system. Last time we invested 2 picks and 9 million in cap space in one, Jason Taylor, and look how that worked out.

And sadly "area of need" covers every position on this team except maybe defensive backs.

[akhhorus]

I agree with shally on this point. We don't need another lightweight speed rusher, we need a big run stopping bull rushing LDE. It is just a waste getting people that don't fit our system. Last time we invested 2 picks and 9 million in cap space in one, Jason Taylor, and look how that worked out. And sadly "area of need" covers every position on this team except maybe defensive backs.

6-3 260 is lightweight? Thats bigger than Andre Carter and would make him the biggest DE on the roster.

[HAWGZHEAD]

So, we let this good pass rusher from the CFL go unsigned(despite, I believe, a local connection), but we decided to sign a kick returner?
Who is the guy you are speaking of? I missed something.

[akhhorus]

Who is the guy you are speaking of? I missed something.

The Phins signed the CFL player of the year, Cameron Wake. He's supposed to be this fast, devastating pass rusher.

[HAWGZHEAD]

The Phins signed the CFL player of the year, Cameron Wake. He's supposed to be this fast, devastating pass rusher.
Man, 39 sacks in 2 seasons and he ran a 4.5 40 at his pro day. Even if its the CFL that is impressive to say the least.

[akhhorus]

Man, 39 sacks in 2 seasons and he ran a 4.5 40 at his pro day. Even if its the CFL that is impressive to say the least.

I'm sure that they brought him in for an interview that ended abruptly when Greg Blache tried to burn him for witchcraft.

[HAWGZHEAD]

I'm sure that they brought him in for an interview that ended abruptly when Greg Blache tried to burn him for witchcraft.
:lol1:

[Skins7ny]

it sounded like the pass rusher was a clone of chris wilson.. too small and presumably quick...

dorsey did look quick in the video i saw of him.. he is tiny at 5 7" and 170, but if he runs straight instead of side to side, he is worth trying out..

they apparently also signed some of the PS players including riley and ross, from last year.. looking for confirmation of that.

According to PFW, we signed FB Jonathan Evans, OG Isaiah Ross and P Zac Atterberry (competition for Plackemeir) in early January. Ross is the only player we have signed off our practice squad to date, which is very unusual. Normally you would bring back 6-7 of the guys on your PS, but I guess we haven't because ours was picked clean by other teams around the league. The Skins don't appear to have announced the moves yet, but PFW is often ahead of the curve on announced transactions-they must get them direct from the league office. I cannot give you the link b/c it might be PFW insider info, and I don't want to run afoul of the moderators.

[VegasSkinsFan]

"But Coach Blache...but, but but......" " Now settle down class, we will have none of that 'pressure the qb' talk under my watch. If only i can get Goodell to let me run my stifling 4-3-8 Defense" :smash:

[bergiemoore]

"But Coach Blache...but, but but......" " Now settle down class, we will have none of that 'pressure the qb' talk under my watch. If only i can get Goodell to let me run my stifling 0-3-8 Defense" :smash:

FIFY

[dj_stouty]

The more the merrier. Bring on the competition!

[Keino]

Who?

[shally]

I'm sure that they brought him in for an interview that ended abruptly when Greg Blache tried to burn him for witchcraft.

that is precisely it.. blache would ruin him by running 30 straight okalahoma drills over him in practice and then saying he has no legs or stamina to rush the qb anyway...

[BurgundyNGold]

Way to scout 'em up Vinny.

They'll be cut next week to make room for another marginal signing.

[VegasSkinsFan]

Way to scout 'em up Vinny.

They'll be cut next week to make room for another marginal signing.

Maybe Vinnie is in secret talks with Vince McMahon to sign The Great Khali to block kicks too....ala the attempt at Andre the Giant. :sfight:

[skinsfan36]

[/B]

According to PFW, we signed FB Jonathan Evans, OG Isaiah Ross and P Zac Atterberry (competition for Plackemeir) in early January. Ross is the only player we have signed off our practice squad to date, which is very unusual. Normally you would bring back 6-7 of the guys on your PS, but I guess we haven't because ours was picked clean by other teams around the league. The Skins don't appear to have announced the moves yet, but PFW is often ahead of the curve on announced transactions-they must get them direct from the league office. I cannot give you the link b/c it might be PFW insider info, and I don't want to run afoul of the moderators.

http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/redskins/2009/Feb/04/special-teams-competition-signed/

the above article confirms atterbery,evans. also adds long snapper jeremy cain(why?),and guys who finished on our practice squad db micheal grant,ol ruben riley,wr marques haggans.

glad to see competition for our crappy kicker,punter. hope dorsey can return punts(wishful thinking probably)

[colkurtz]

http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/redskins/2009/Feb/04/special-teams-competition-signed/

the above article confirms atterbery,evans. also adds long snapper jeremy cain(why?),and guys who finished on our practice squad db micheal grant,ol ruben riley,wr marques haggans.

glad to see competition for our crappy kicker,punter. hope dorsey can return punts(wishful thinking probably)

If Dorsey can return punts this would be a huge help in this area. ARE has done poorly two season in a row and doing little on each kick except getting a fair catch or one yard forward and 4 yards sideways. Rock had a good season but a couple of KO would have gone all the way if he'd had the speed. Maybe we'll get one keeper out of this group of UDFA - I'd imagine that these are ST hopefuls. Our ST stars - Thrash Rock , etc. are getting old and slow. We need new blood there this season......

[Skinz4lyfe]

Holy smokes! Who are we kidding? Why not wait a few weeks until the FA period starts to sign Rayner. I'm quite sure he'd be available a month from now and there are much better kickers scheduled to be available at the start of free agency. When your offense has issues scoring, spending decent money on a good kicker is vital.

Such is the case w/the punter. Where the heck did they find him? We drafted a punter last year who struggled. I get that. We cut him midseason to sign another punter who was marginally better at best. Don't get that move. Now we're signing "John Doe" to compete w/an already sorry punter. Wow! Good job FO!

Maybe that returner will turn out to be like Gerald McNeal (the Ice Cube). Anybody remember him from the Browns? LOL! Link (http://www.nfl.com/players/geraldmcneil/profile?id=MCN553712)

[shally]

If Dorsey can return punts this would be a huge help in this area. ARE has done poorly two season in a row and doing little on each kick except getting a fair catch or one yard forward and 4 yards sideways. Rock had a good season but a couple of KO would have gone all the way if he'd had the speed. Maybe we'll get one keeper out of this group of UDFA - I'd imagine that these are ST hopefuls. Our ST stars - Thrash Rock , etc. are getting old and slow. We need new blood there this season......


agree.. long snapper ? albright is getting on and who knows when he decides he has had enough ?

we still need a pro quality punter

[hogskins]

http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/redskins/2009/Feb/04/special-teams-competition-signed/

the above article confirms atterbery,evans. also adds long snapper jeremy cain(why?),and guys who finished on our practice squad db micheal grant,ol ruben riley,wr marques haggans.

glad to see competition for our crappy kicker,punter. hope dorsey can return punts(wishful thinking probably)

Haggans is very much in the mold of ARE--he was a scramble/option QB at Virginia, and was good at making people miss. He may be a PR option. I don't know what he's been up to since leaving college, though.

[The Iceman]

I think Suisham could be the long term solution. Kickers are funny like that. Sometimes they start their careers slow and then boom. Sometimes they have stellar careers and then just suddenly can't kick an Extra Point. (See: Mike Vanderjagt). I say let's take a wait and see approach to this offseason with the kicker. The punter on the other hand. Let's bring back Brooks for a look in TC.

[shally]

I think Suisham could be the long term solution. Kickers are funny like that. Sometimes they start their careers slow and then boom. Sometimes they have stellar careers and then just suddenly can't kick an Extra Point. (See: Mike Vanderjagt). I say let's take a wait and see approach to this offseason with the kicker. The punter on the other hand. Let's bring back Brooks for a look in TC.


brooks is signed by the packers to be their punter this year..

we will need to look elsewhere for a punter..

apparently the front office shares your view of suisham, long term, and believes he is simply in a slump (i think JLC had something to that effect)..
still, it is good they at least have someone who has pro experience and a strong leg to provide some kind of alternative if suisham continues to struggle

[VegasSkinsFan]

Its good to see some guys brought it...at least the 2 Ol guys and the LB have decent size to them, if anything. GO SKINS !!!

[fpickering]

I still maintain that we get whomever the Jets jettison between Nugent and Feely.

[shally]

I still maintain that we get whomever the Jets jettison between Nugent and Feely.

not a bad plan.. i would bet that the front office will have NONE of it

[warpaint]

some of the comments in this thread make me sick. sure the guy is no adam vinateri, but he is veteran competition for suisham. i get the feeling many of you would be whining about it no matter who we brung in unless its some high priced free agent kicker. in fact i think the entire HR attitude has shifted lately, too many people trying to make jokes and be sarcastic, and not enough actual discussion. its the discussion that drew me to this place not people who think they are funny

well I would suggest you didn't read the posts that made you sick, I think the reason most of us are here is because we all have a right to our opinion even though we could be wrong with that opinion, as a long time fan of the redskins (over 40 years) I may be one of those that attitude has shifted lately , after years now of lets wait until next year,and always optimistic about our team,I now am just tired of waiting until next year, I like many others here now believe that as long as Snyder and cerrato are running the team we will never be super bowl champs again, pretty depressing when there isn't any hope of things changing out at redskins park in the intermediate future. hope is that I am 100% wrong . I respect what you are saying and 10 years ago probably would have felt exactly as you do.

[skinsfan36]

not a bad plan.. i would bet that the front office will have NONE of it

yes because "suisham was just in a slump" is this years "dline is fine" argument. what a bunch of idiots in our front office

[NCskinsfanatic]

not a bad plan.. i would bet that the front office will have NONE of it

yeah because we're fine, just a couple of players away, great foundation already in place, man this FO or lack thereof is frustrating...

[firehawk157]

The teeth-gnashing over this is absurd. Sure, would I have liked a Rob Bironas brought in? Definitely. But list out all the needs of the Skins

DL
OL
LB
Possibly QB
2nd RB
FB
#1 WR
K
PR
P
KR

It's way too far down the list to invest any real money in without first addressing more important positions. Let's save our tirades for when we pass on a great future DT/DE to pick another safety at #13.

[shally]

The teeth-gnashing over this is absurd. Sure, would I have liked a Rob Bironas brought in? Definitely. But list out all the needs of the Skins

DL
OL
LB
Possibly QB
2nd RB
FB
#1 WR
K
PR
P
KR

It's way too far down the list to invest any real money in without first addressing more important positions. Let's save our tirades for when we pass on a great future DT/DE to pick another safety at #13.

yes, you are correct.. to a point.. but, i believe the biggest bang for the buck spent on ANY player this offseason would be on a top tier kicker.. when a team is struggling badly to score TD's, and winning or losing games by very narrow margins-- no greater gain can be had than by having a kicker who is simply automatic, and a weapon from 50-55 yards in..

[bergiemoore]

We can add Byron Westbrook to this offseason's list of signings.

LINK (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/redskins_re-sign_westbrook_add.html?wprss=redskinsinsider)

[NCskinsfanatic]

We can add Byron Westbrook to this offseason's list of signings.

LINK (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/redskins_re-sign_westbrook_add.html?wprss=redskinsinsider)

hip hip hooray...

[shally]

We can add Byron Westbrook to this offseason's list of signings.

LINK (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/redskins_re-sign_westbrook_add.html?wprss=redskinsinsider)

well, if nothing else, he will earn his worth twice a year on scouts team impersonating his brother...hmmmmm.. come to think of it, if he is so good at it, why dont they try him as a third down back ???..............i am only half joking about that one... why not try it in camp ??

[BurgundyNGold]

We can add Byron Westbrook to this offseason's list of signings.

LINK (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/redskins_re-sign_westbrook_add.html?wprss=redskinsinsider)
Meh. This guy sucks. He should walk up to his mother and slap her because he obviously doesn't have the same father as Brian.

[shally]

Meh. This guy sucks. He should walk up to his mother and slap her because he obviously doesn't have the same father as Brian.

that's my boy............................................... .................lol

[skinsfan36]

We can add Byron Westbrook to this offseason's list of signings.

LINK (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/redskins_re-sign_westbrook_add.html?wprss=redskinsinsider)

id like to see this kid play some rb in the preseason and return kicks again

[CNYSkinFan]

We can add Byron Westbrook to this offseason's list of signings.

LINK (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/redskins_re-sign_westbrook_add.html?wprss=redskinsinsider)
laziest front office ever. Seriously how many people do we have to sign who we have already cut before. They aint bottles of wine, they aren't going to ripen with age and a year off.

[shally]

id like to see this kid play some rb in the preseason and return kicks again


he had trouble holding onto the ball last season, and wasnt anything special when he did.. maybe he got rid of those nerves ?

[Passepartout74]

Well, Rayner is a awesome kickoff man but, adequate as a FG kicker!

[shally]

Well, Rayner is a awesome kickoff man but, adequate as a FG kicker!

that is a lateral move at best.. we cannot really afford to spend 2 roster spots on a player who just kicks off, and another who is the worst percentage FG kicker in the nfl.. totally boneheaded IMHO