Ugh, Skins make Daniels an offer

[AliBabba]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/redskins_make_contract_offer_t.html
The Washington Redskins made a contract offer to veteran defesive lineman Phillip Daniels, who wants to return to the team.
"Yeah, my agent has been talking to the Redskins and they're trying to work out something," Daniels said. "There are some other teams calling, so I'm still just trying to take it slow and see what happens, but I'm hoping we can get something worked out and I can be a Redskin next season.
A 13-year veteran, Daniels, 36, missed the entire 2008 season after he suffered a knee injury on the first day of training camp last July. Daniels has played with the Redskins since 2004.

crap

[Tha Boss Hogg]

I beat you to it lol...

[JasonCampbell]

Absolutely mind boggling that we let our best DE from last year go, who happens to be relatively young (Evans) and plan to re-sign a 36 year old coming off an ACL tear. Right when I think we are shedding ourselves of the old, ineffective guys on defense we do this.

I don't get it.

[BurgundyNGold]

Absolutely mind boggling that we let our best DE from last year go, who happens to be relatively young (Evans) and plan to re-sign a 36 year old coming off an ACL tear. Right when I think we are shedding ourselves of the old, ineffective guys on defense we do this.

I don't get it.
Neither does Snyderrato.

[nicefellow31]

When I saw this thread I said to myself that this was going to get some funny responses. I'm not disappointed. I bet Daniels was down at Redskin Park to sign his contract before Vinny hung up the phone. Seriously, this sucks. Oh well. I get to read for another year of how worthless PD is.

[AliBabba]

http://www.clownsunlimited.com/images/EventPlanning/EventRentals/TablesAndChairs/Chair-Folding.jpg
$8.95


http://www.fs4sports.com/catalog/HR428_LRG.jpg
$27.95

[AliBabba]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cOJ9lWcjH7wV/340x.jpg
.... Priceless

[AliBabba]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_NFL_league_salary_minimum

Vet Minimum Salaries:
Rookies - $285,000
One Year Veteran - $360,000
Two Year Veteran - $435,000
Three Year Veteran - $510,000
Four to Six Year Veteran - $595,000
Seven to Nine Year Veteran - $720,000
Ten+ Year Veteran - $820,000

If Daniels' contract offer is for more than $820,001, Vinny's keys should be taken away

[VegasSkinsFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRrnqnsmYG0

Just a little something to get us excited !!!!! here we go again

[nicefellow31]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRrnqnsmYG0

Just a little something to get us excited !!!!!

Nice of you to drop by here Phillip. Video is cool but I still don't want you on the team.

[JasonCampbell]

If only squatting an absurd amount of weight transferred over to rushing the QB...

[shally]

but he looks mighty strong....

maybe this will satisfy Blache's old guy cravings so that he doesnt ask for Wynn also..

[VegasSkinsFan]

but he looks mighty strong....

maybe this will satisfy Blache's old guy cravings so that he doesnt ask for Wynn also..

yeah, not sure my heart could watch that. It makes sense, Blache doesnt want a pass rushing DE....wish all you want, but no way do we sign the DE from FSU or Orakpo..unless as a lb. He wants a guy like PD...maybe tyson jackson, but come on....do you really think we will go DE in the first.

[shally]

yeah, not sure my heart could watch that. It makes sense, Blache doesnt want a pass rushing DE....wish all you want, but no way do we sign the DE from FSU or Orakpo..unless as a lb. He wants a guy like PD...maybe tyson jackson, but come on....do you really think we will go DE in the first.

not any more..

if we sign Barnes, my guess is LB all the way... if we dont sign Barnes, or if we sign Elton Brown, i would guess an O lineman

then, there is always the possibility of the inevitable CB in the first round...

[ClubSandwichGuy]

Absolutely mind boggling that we let our best DE from last year go, who happens to be relatively young (Evans) and plan to re-sign a 36 year old coming off an ACL tear. Right when I think we are shedding ourselves of the old, ineffective guys on defense we do this.

I don't get it.
Agreed 100 times over. We have 13 million right now. Why did Willis stay with the Seahawks? Why did Evans go to the '9ers? There are no excuses. We have to get a few guys now, we don't have enough draft picks to make up for all these holes.

[jaylen]

ugh, whats this fascination we have for old stiffs. I may get sick if I see a Wynn signing.

I'm sick of Blache at this point he must go. But we're gonna have to suffer through another year of reactive defense. Daniels plays right into this crap.

[skinfan43]

This is the best:

Daniels said. "There are some other teams calling

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!

[Luis Landa]

If he has other teams calling him he should sign with one of them. I would wait untill the draft to deal with the DE situation instead of signing a 36 year old who is coming back from a major injury.

[shally]

If only squatting an absurd amount of weight transferred over to rushing the QB...

no, but apparently it does translate some into holding the point on runs..
that was something that evans wasnt too swift at last year- particularly in the 4th quarter of games against team trying to run out the clock on us..

[shally]

[QUOTE=VegasSkinsFan;1203013]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRrnqnsmYG0

Just a little something to get us excited !!!!!


Holy Moley !!

that apparatus looks like something you see in a meat packing plant.. Dude is uncommonly strong !!

[esmith1790]

[QUOTE=VegasSkinsFan;1203013]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRrnqnsmYG0

Just a little something to get us excited !!!!!


Holy Moley !!

that apparatus looks like something you see in a meat packing plant.. Dude is uncommonly strong !!

Yes, but can he jump out of the pool? that should be a new Combine test for all.

[whitskins]

Agreed 100 times over. We have 13 million right now. Why did Willis stay with the Seahawks? Why did Evans go to the '9ers? There are no excuses. We have to get a few guys now, we don't have enough draft picks to make up for all these holes.

According to JLC, we only have about 7 million at our disposal and we need 3-4 mil to take care of the rookies. If that's the case, then even using 2 mil on Demetric Evans is too much, as we still need LBs and OLs as well.

Daniels will cost about a million and will probably sign a one-year deal, allowing us to dump him in camp if necessary with no penalty. Evans was ok last year, but he had a career high 3.5 sacks at age 29 and isn't a strong against the run as PD.

We're basically hanging our entire offseason on Haynesworth, as he's the reason why we can't sign even a mid-level FA LB or OT. We can't afford to commit dollars to a position that may not even be a major need anymore after round one of the draft.

We'll probably kick the tires on minimum level vets until the draft, see if we end up with a new starting RT, WLB, or DE there, then use the few dollars we have left to fill the remaining holes before camp.

But we really can't afford to do anything else.

[BurgundyNGold]

If only squatting an absurd amount of weight transferred over to rushing the QB...
Exactly. Maybe he should be working on his bench and butterfly presses.

[shally]

i disagree.. the daniels signing is about something else. it is about the specific system that Blache wants to run. for him, a guy like daniels is the ideal LDE.
he is strong as an ox, about a fast, and cannot be moved from his spot. he ties up offensive linemen so that they cannot get around the end to take on our linebackers and corners.. if your system is predicated upon discipline and
players filling that exact role, that is what you need. you stop the run first and pressure the qb up the middle

Blache does not expect Daniels to provide pass rush. that comes from
blitzing linebackers or safeties, or the occasional corner blitz. we have heard that over and over during GW's and now Blache's tenure here. What AH WILL hopefully provide is another immense source of pressure up the middle, in the qb's face.. that is something no one could do last year, or really, since griffin started breaking down.. but it doesn t work if the edge isnt protected because your DE is pushed back

evans was not good enough. that is why he was allowed to leave. maybe he flourishes in the niners system ? he sure wont flourish here. Taylor was a disaster in that regard. he wanted to stunt and to free lance.. cant do it under Blache.. he wasnt strong enough to hold the point.. must have it under Blache

i think in the end, with Daniels we have a decent mix of DE's to cover our needs.. i think that with AH we are going to see more dynamic pass rushing from someone out of the group wilson/jackson/buzbee.. also daniels will move inside on third down when AH goes to the bench

finally, this does not solve the needs for LB and OL, but daniels is cheap enough so that they can afford to fill in those spots between the draft and further free agents

[shally]

Exactly. Maybe he should be working on his bench and butterfly presses.

he is a competitve power lifter.. those cats use their chest and back muscles as well

[BurgundyNGold]

According to JLC, we only have about 7 million at our disposal and we need 3-4 mil to take care of the rookies. If that's the case, then even using 2 mil on Demetric Evans is too much, as we still need LBs and OLs as well.

Daniels will cost about a million and will probably sign a one-year deal, allowing us to dump him in camp if necessary with no penalty. Evans was ok last year, but he had a career high 3.5 sacks at age 29 and isn't a strong against the run as PD.

We're basically hanging our entire offseason on Haynesworth, as he's the reason why we can't sign even a mid-level FA LB or OT. We can't afford to commit dollars to a position that may not even be a major need anymore after round one of the draft.

We'll probably kick the tires on minimum level vets until the draft, see if we end up with a new starting RT, WLB, or DE there, then use the few dollars we have left to fill the remaining holes before camp.

But we really can't afford to do anything else.
How is is that we cut Jason Taylor ($8.5M) and end up with only $7M of cap space? I'm not so sure about JLC's numbers. Especially since other sources are putting us at $10M or $11M under the cap.

[BurgundyNGold]

he is a competitve power lifter.. those cats use their chest and back muscles as well
Not on the field he doesn't. That guy needs binoculars to see the QB after the snap. He does bat down a few balls from about 10 yards downfield, though.

[shally]

How is is that we cut Jason Taylor ($8.5M) and end up with only $7M of cap space? I'm not so sure about JLC's numbers. Especially since other sources are putting us at $10M or $11M under the cap.

i dont trust JLC at all

last year we made no offers to anyone except demps, and our own FA's

this year, aside from the guys we have signed, we apparently made one to willis.
we offered him what we thought was fair (i am guessing) and he chose to stay in seattle.. no big deal.. i would hope they wouldnt overspend on guys like him or E Brown, but if we are truly interested in K Barnes it would cost a whole lot more.
or maybe we take a look at Tra Thomas or Runyon in a while ? there will be guys out there who can fill our needs, before or after the draft.

[BurgundyNGold]

but he looks mighty strong....

maybe this will satisfy Blache's old guy cravings so that he doesnt ask for Wynn also..
WTH do you keep bringing up Wynn, lol? Did you actually read somewhere that Wyn would be back in a Redskins uniform? The last I heard, Wynn hated the Redskins for cutting him 2 years ago when he was playing like crap but still thought that he had some gas left in the tank.

[shally]

Not on the field he doesn't. That guy needs binoculars to see the QB after the snap. He does bat down a few balls from about 10 yards downfield, though.

that sounds like Evans, who is 6 years younger

again, Daniels is NOT there to rush the passer. he is there to hold the point and tie up o linemen.. if you tell me you dont think he can do that, it is entirely another matter.. but for that purpose, i think it came down to him or Canty.
and once we signed AH, Canty was too expensive, so enter PD

[shally]

WTH do you keep bringing up Wynn, lol? Did you actually read somewhere that Wyn would be back in a Redskins uniform? The last I heard, Wynn hated the Redskins for cutting him 2 years ago when he was playing like crap but still thought that he had some gas left in the tank.

i didnt dream that up.. maybe i saw it at the same site that had the incognito signing..? lol

i swear i saw that wynn was being touted to return to the redskins.. i sure hope i am dead wrong on that one..

just as dockery was delighted to return.. just as smoot was delighted to return.. if they reached out to wynn, you had better believe it would be all sweetness and light..lol

let me see if i can recall where i saw that about wynn..i owe you that..lol

[akhhorus]

Philip Daniels goes into the huddle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjZRLLbDQ_Y)

[BurgundyNGold]

that sounds like Evans, who is 6 years younger

again, Daniels is NOT there to rush the passer. he is there to hold the point and tie up o linemen.. if you tell me you dont think he can do that, it is entirely another matter.. but for that purpose, i think it came down to him or Canty.
and once we signed AH, Canty was too expensive, so enter PD
I'm sorry, but that's BS. Why would you bring in Carter, a light-ish DE, to hold up OL? Same with Taylor? Why draft Rob Jackson or keep Chris Wilson -- all pass rushing "specialists" who cannot hold the POA.

Blache want's DL who play the run first. That is *not* to say that they're not supposed to get after the passer, only that they're to keep edge containment. Taylor didn't fit that because he couldn't hold the POA and get to the QB. Daniels could hold the POA... 3 yards down field. And he only got near the QB when the QB ran into him on a coverage sack.

If what you are saying were true, drafting Orakpo or Maybin would be a complete waste, since they're too small to hold the POA. We would be far better served to get a legitmate DE in FA who is big enough to provide run support. Or, for that matter, to just play 4 DT.

[BurgundyNGold]

BTW, the Warpath.net has the Redskins at $11.487M under the cap.

http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm

EDIT: Also, thehogs.net say the Redskins have $11.550M to spend

http://www.thehogs.net/washington-redskins/salary.php

And, unlike JLC, both sites have the numbers in the spreadsheet to back up their figure.

[shally]

I'm sorry, but that's BS. Why would you bring in Carter, a light-ish DE, to hold up OL? Same with Taylor? Why draft Rob Jackson or keep Chris Wilson -- all pass rushing "specialists" who cannot hold the POA.

Blache want's DL who play the run first. That is *not* to say that they're not supposed to get after the passer, only that they're to keep edge containment. Taylor didn't fit that because he couldn't hold the POA and get to the QB. Daniels could hold the POA... 3 yards down field. And he only got near the QB when the QB ran into him on a coverage sack.

If what you are saying were true, drafting Orakpo or Maybin would be a complete waste, since they're too small to hold the POA. We would be far better served to get a legitmate DE in FA who is big enough to provide run support. Or, for that matter, to just play 4 DT.

first thing:

today, in discussing the cap space situation, JASNO specifically mentions KENDALL, DANIELS, WYNN as being 1 million dollar contracts adding up
in free agency.. it is on somebodies radar, because i cannt see JASNO simply dreaming that up..

second, that is part of the reason i dont think there is much chance we would draft Orakpo. it is one thing to spend a 7th rounder on Jackson or a free agent contract on wilson or buzbee, but i dont think Blachhe would sign off on Orakpo in the first.. if there is ANY communication between Vinny and Blache-- and there may not be..

as for carter, i think he is the best conditioned athlete on the team.. and sometimes he does get beaten. but not like taylor did.. and i think that carter would be helped immeasurably by having a healthy strong LB behind him.
PD ? i dont think he needs as much help. if his knee is sound, no one is going to be pushing him 3 yards back. he might not be getting to the qb, but he isnt going anywhere

and yes, i think that Blache would be just fine with 4 DT's on first and second downs.. or at least guys who play as if they are DT's on first and second downs

that is what we get with Blache

if we were to take any DE in the first round, i think it would be more likely Tyson Jackson.. that is a Blache type DE

[shally]

Philip Daniels goes into the huddle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjZRLLbDQ_Y)

darn it, Akh !!! you promised me you wouldnt release that film of me rehabbing my last surgery......

[BurgundyNGold]

first thing:

today, in discussing the cap space situation, JASNO specifically mentions KENDALL, DANIELS, WYNN as being 1 million dollar contracts adding up
in free agency.. it is on somebodies radar, because i cannt see JASNO simply dreaming that up..

second, that is part of the reason i dont think there is much chance we would draft Orakpo. it is one thing to spend a 7th rounder on Jackson or a free agent contract on wilson or buzbee, but i dont think Blachhe would sign off on Orakpo in the first.. if there is ANY communication between Vinny and Blache-- and there may not be..

as for carter, i think he is the best conditioned athlete on the team.. and sometimes he does get beaten. but not like taylor did.. and i think that carter would be helped immeasurably by having a healthy strong LB behind him.
PD ? i dont think he needs as much help. if his knee is sound, no one is going to be pushing him 3 yards back. he might not be getting to the qb, but he isnt going anywhere

and yes, i think that Blache would be just fine with 4 DT's on first and second downs.. or at least guys who play as if they are DT's on first and second downs

that is what we get with Blache
That Wynn reference was complete conjecture. Unlike Kendall and Daniels who were with the team in 2008 (and 2007) who were cut for age and cap dollars, there has been exactly zero reference made to Wynn anywhere, by anybody not named Jason La Canfora.

Also, his "league source" is the only source I've seen that has the Redskins at $7M under the cap. Other sources have the team at $11.5M, so unless there is some Easter egg in some contract that nobody has been told about, I don't know where he or his "league source" are getting $7M.

Finally, Blanche should just play 4, 2 gap DT. The defense would be better off.

[BurgundyNGold]

Philip Daniels goes into the huddle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjZRLLbDQ_Y)
:lol1:

I can't believe I missed that, lol.

[shally]

That Wynn reference was complete conjecture. Unlike Kendall and Daniels who were with the team in 2008 (and 2007) who were cut for age and cap dollars, there has been exactly zero reference made to Wynn anywhere, by anybody not named Jason La Canfora.

Also, his "league source" is the only source I've seen that has the Redskins at $7M under the cap. Other sources have the team at $11.5M, so unless there is some Easter egg in some contract that nobody has been told about, I don't know where he or his "league source" are getting $7M.

Finally, Blanche should just play 4, 2 gap DT. The defense would be better off.

i think the skins will spend up to what they have available-- whatever that figure is.. we will sign more players

Wynn is probably conjecture on JLC's part.. but someone is feeding him it..
maybe wynn's agent or wynn, looking for one more contract ?

i think Blache would play that formation, if he had the players to do it.
daniels performs as if he is a tackle most of the time.. carter is the only lineman who is in on 1st-2nd downs who is a functional DE

[BurgundyNGold]

i think the skins will spend up to what they have available-- whatever that figure is.. we will sign more players

Wynn is probably conjecture on JLC's part.. but someone is feeding him it..
maybe wynn's agent or wynn, looking for one more contract ?

i think Blache would play that formation, if he had the players to do it.
daniels performs as if he is a tackle most of the time.. carter is the only lineman who is in on 1st-2nd downs who is a functional DE
The thing about JLC is that nobody has to "feed him" anything for him to put forth asinine conjecture on his blog, which he often does. I mean, how many times has he started a sentence with the words "I wouldn't be surprised if..." only to have what comes next not be anything close to what actually happened?

Dude like to mix things up. Sometimes he gets info, usually it's just his gut feeling and, occasionally, he just makes crap up. He was the last one to report on the AH signing, as I recall, yet JLC would be the first to report a "tampering" that logic would suggest he would have known at least enough about to help him at least somewhat call the AH signing, no?

JLC is trying my patience. The WaPo needs to cycle a new beat writer into Redskins Park.

[nicefellow31]

Blache does not expect Daniels to provide pass rush. that comes from
blitzing linebackers or safeties, or the occasional corner blitz. we have heard that over and over during GW's and now Blache's tenure here. What AH WILL hopefully provide is another immense source of pressure up the middle, in the qb's face.. that is something no one could do last year, or really, since griffin started breaking down.. but it doesn t work if the edge isnt protected because your DE is pushed back

finally, this does not solve the needs for LB and OL, but daniels is cheap enough so that they can afford to fill in those spots between the draft and further free agents


I was going to ask you Shally which LB or S is going to provide the pass rush on the blitz. I really don't think Blache really cares about a pass rush.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

Now I get it... this is why we didn't make an offer for Olshansky. Nice thinking....

[WRSK1NS]

Not on the field he doesn't. That guy needs binoculars to see the QB after the snap. He does bat down a few balls from about 10 yards downfield, though.


I think Daniels had just started power lifting before the start of the season last year and I was interested to see if that would help his game. Unfortunatly he went down on day 1 of camp and we never got to see if it helped or not.

[chrisbcbu]

i disagree.. the daniels signing is about something else. it is about the specific system that Blache wants to run. for him, a guy like daniels is the ideal LDE.
he is strong as an ox, about a fast, and cannot be moved from his spot. he ties up offensive linemen so that they cannot get around the end to take on our linebackers and corners.. if your system is predicated upon discipline and
players filling that exact role, that is what you need. you stop the run first and pressure the qb up the middle

Blache does not expect Daniels to provide pass rush. that comes from
blitzing linebackers or safeties, or the occasional corner blitz. we have heard that over and over during GW's and now Blache's tenure here. What AH WILL hopefully provide is another immense source of pressure up the middle, in the qb's face.. that is something no one could do last year, or really, since griffin started breaking down.. but it doesn t work if the edge isnt protected because your DE is pushed back

evans was not good enough. that is why he was allowed to leave. maybe he flourishes in the niners system ? he sure wont flourish here. Taylor was a disaster in that regard. he wanted to stunt and to free lance.. cant do it under Blache.. he wasnt strong enough to hold the point.. must have it under Blache

i think in the end, with Daniels we have a decent mix of DE's to cover our needs.. i think that with AH we are going to see more dynamic pass rushing from someone out of the group wilson/jackson/buzbee.. also daniels will move inside on third down when AH goes to the bench

finally, this does not solve the needs for LB and OL, but daniels is cheap enough so that they can afford to fill in those spots between the draft and further free agents

This is exactly my thinking as well. We have 1 pass rushing DE which is Carter. We need the other side to basically hold the line of attack. PD can do that, which is why i think they plan on keeping him another year.

[JasonCampbell]

This is exactly my thinking as well. We have 1 pass rushing DE which is Carter. We need the other side to basically hold the line of attack. PD can do that, which is why i think they plan on keeping him another year.

Andre Carter rushes the passer? News to me :)

[NCskinsfanatic]

BTW, the Warpath.net has the Redskins at $11.487M under the cap.

http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm

EDIT: Also, thehogs.net say the Redskins have $11.550M to spend

http://www.thehogs.net/washington-redskins/salary.php

And, unlike JLC, both sites have the numbers in the spreadsheet to back up their figure.

Warpath has updated and now has us at 9.4 million due to JC hitting some incentives, creeping closer and closer to the 7 mil that JLC reported. And if we only have 7-8 million that has a lot to due with why Taylor isnt here and we've failed to land any notable upgrades for the OL or at LB.

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

i would'nt believe one word those jackasses at the warpath said.
it's common sense to bring daniels back since taylor was too lazy to collect 500thousand in workout money in my opinion.

[BurgundyNGold]

Warpath has updated and now has us at 9.4 million due to JC hitting some incentives, creeping closer and closer to the 7 mil that JLC reported. And if we only have 7-8 million that has a lot to due with why Taylor isnt here and we've failed to land any notable upgrades for the OL or at LB.
Thanks for the update.

If we're at $8M (even though it may be $9.5M) and you need 4 for rookies, that still leaves you room to explore signing folks not named Phillip Daniels.

[Moe]

Bringing in Daniels, in combination with the low tenders for Monty and Golston, speaks to what they feel about those two and that Daniels might spend more time inside at DT than outside at DE.

[BurgundyNGold]

i would'nt believe one word those jackassesat the warpath said.
Why do you think that?

it's common sense to bring daniels back since taylor was too lazy to collect 500thousand in workout money in my opinion.
Daniels sucks. Was he as bad in 2007 as Wynn was in 2006? No, but he was in steep decline. And that was *before* he blew out his ACL and get another year older. We'd be better served to start one of the young guys and keep that $1M for a signing bonus for a player with more to offer.

[BurgundyNGold]

Bringing in Daniels, in combination with the low tenders for Monty and Golston, speaks to what they feel about those two and that Daniels might spend more time inside at DT than outside at DE.
That still leaves a hole at DE unless they plan on letting the youngins compete for a starting spot.

[shally]

The thing about JLC is that nobody has to "feed him" anything for him to put forth asinine conjecture on his blog, which he often does. I mean, how many times has he started a sentence with the words "I wouldn't be surprised if..." only to have what comes next not be anything close to what actually happened?

Dude like to mix things up. Sometimes he gets info, usually it's just his gut feeling and, occasionally, he just makes crap up. He was the last one to report on the AH signing, as I recall, yet JLC would be the first to report a "tampering" that logic would suggest he would have known at least enough about to help him at least somewhat call the AH signing, no?

JLC is trying my patience. The WaPo needs to cycle a new beat writer into Redskins Park.

agree. but with contraction of newspapers, the likelihood of another bob addie or shirley povich are ZERO or less

[NCskinsfanatic]

i would'nt believe one word those jackasses at the warpath said.
it's common sense to bring daniels back since taylor was too lazy to collect 500thousand in workout money in my opinion.

I dont know, while I prefer our site by far, they have guys that are pretty astute at capology.

Thanks for the update.

If we're at $8M (even though it may be $9.5M) and you need 4 for rookies, that still leaves you room to explore signing folks not named Phillip Daniels.

Oh I agree with that statement. I just wish we could have signed Willis but evidentally he would be competeing for a spot here and Seattle sees him as their Starting RG this season. As for Brown I dont know that he'd help much and either he's asking for too much or we're not interested because nothings been done. This leads me to believe that we're making a play for Barnes but he probably is asking for every bit of our remaining cap money and the FO is reluctant to pull the trigger. I'm almost more concerned by our lack of talent at OLB than I am at RT to be honest. We can get a RT at 13 that can start, not so sure a SLB will be there and once you get to our 3rd round pick theres no garauntee we'll end up with anything more than a spot starter or special teamer at OLB or DE.

[shally]

That still leaves a hole at DE unless they plan on letting the youngins compete for a starting spot.

and that is what will happen.. somewhere wilson was quoted as saying he believed he was a starter.. that is patently ridiculous, but i still like his attitude

the thing is that nobody plays every down in blache's defense so he will need 8 DLmen one way or the other. he will mix and match. i like that. what i dont like is how passive his schemes have been

[BurgundyNGold]

Oh I agree with that statement. I just wish we could have signed Willis but evidentally he would be competeing for a spot here and Seattle sees him as their Starting RG this season. As for Brown I dont know that he'd help much and either he's asking for too much or we're not interested because nothings been done. This leads me to believe that we're making a play for Barnes but he probably is asking for every bit of our remaining cap money and the FO is reluctant to pull the trigger. I'm almost more concerned by our lack of talent at OLB than I am at RT to be honest. We can get a RT at 13 that can start, not so sure a SLB will be there and once you get to our 3rd round pick theres no garauntee we'll end up with anything more than a spot starter or special teamer at OLB or DE.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm concerned about the OLB slot, as well. I'm just trying to prioritize my angst, lol.

[shally]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm concerned about the OLB slot, as well. I'm just trying to prioritize my angst, lol.

OLB is the single biggest hole left.. except at GM

[BurgundyNGold]

OLB is the single biggest hole left.. except at GM
:lol1:

Word.

[akhhorus]

Signing Daniels or Wynn is another reason why Blache should go(not specifically signing them, but that doesn't help). He's running a cover-2 hybrid, which requires his DEs to get up the field and disrupt, while the WLB and SS cover the flanks(see Derrick Brooks/John Lynch in Tampa). Instead, Blache runs it with the DEs covering the flanks and the WLB/SS also covering the flanks since he's terminally scared of being beaten on the off tackle runs. The net result of this is that the defense plays with zero push/aggression. Signing Daniels or another old slow DE just makes the problem worse. I would rather they play Wilson or Rob Jackson just to get some speed out there.

[shally]

Signing Daniels or Wynn is another reason why Blache should go(not specifically signing them, but that doesn't help). He's running a cover-2 hybrid, which requires his DEs to get up the field and disrupt, while the WLB and SS cover the flanks(see Derrick Brooks/John Lynch in Tampa). Instead, Blache runs it with the DEs covering the flanks and the WLB/SS also covering the flanks since he's terminally scared of being beaten on the off tackle runs. The net result of this is that the defense plays with zero push/aggression. Signing Daniels or another old slow DE just makes the problem worse. I would rather they play Wilson or Rob Jackson just to get some speed out there.


i think we will see jackson/wilson out there in rotation..

we arent going to see any 3 down linemen in blache;s system

[Tha Boss Hogg]

We should sign Angelo Crowell and bring back Marcus Washington at vet, Phillip Daniels at vet, and sign Khalif Barnes or Elton Brown, it shouldn't be rocket science to build your team when you have 9 million in cap room...

[NCskinsfanatic]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm concerned about the OLB slot, as well. I'm just trying to prioritize my angst, lol.

LOl...well imo atleast we have two average options at RT, OLB has nothing to choose from except different levels of camp fodder.

OLB is the single biggest hole left.. except at GM


Agreed on both counts

[colkurtz]

Daniels is Blache's sort of DE and he's cheap. The real question is whether Vinny will use one of his draft picks to go toward the DL. We let Evan and Taylor go and we're bringing back an in jury prone 36 year old guy. Logic tells me that we will draft for a DE or DT.

However, Cerrato never has followed a plan and may draft for the DB as they have this last decade.

[shally]

Daniels is Blache's sort of DE and he's cheap. The real question is whether Vinny will use one of his draft picks to go toward the DL. We let Evan and Taylor go and we're bringing back an in jury prone 36 year old guy. Logic tells me that we will draft for a DE or DT.

However, Cerrato never has followed a plan and may draft for the DB as they have this last decade.

ugh.. dont go there

let's see who we sign leading up to the draft.. if we get Barnes, the emphasis will shift to LB... if we get Crowell or June, then it becomes OL.. i dont see a DL on the first day unless we trade down, but i expect one of the second day picks will be a DL, along with the expected CB

[Patrick]

Daniels is Blache's sort of DE and he's cheap. The real question is whether Vinny will use one of his draft picks to go toward the DL. We let Evan and Taylor go and we're bringing back an in jury prone 36 year old guy. Logic tells me that we will draft for a DE or DT.

However, Cerrato never has followed a plan and may draft for the DB as they have this last decade.

Probably not with the first or third rounders .............. Gives you a nice warm feeling huh?

[shally]

Probably not with the first or third rounders .............. Gives you a nice warm feeling huh?

warm and fuzzy all around... what a bunch of azzclowns we have in charge !!

[Nomad]

Absolutely mind boggling that we let our best DE from last year go, who happens to be relatively young (Evans) and plan to re-sign a 36 year old coming off an ACL tear. Right when I think we are shedding ourselves of the old, ineffective guys on defense we do this.

I don't get it.

Not mind boggling at all. Par for the course. We shouldn't have traded for Taylor, started Evans all year, reworked his deal for 1-2 million over 3 years, and would have had a 2nd round pick still.

We have 1 DE on the roster. We have 4 draft picks, and blew our cap wad on 3 guys, and need a SLB, and 4-6 O-linemen.

We have no choice to sign puds like Daniels. Unless we're just going to pull 4-5 DEs out of the matrix.

The funny part is we are almost forced to trade back. If we had a 2nd, we'd use the 1st on a future LT, starting RT, as that is depth in draft, instead we'll trade down.

[shally]

Not mind boggling at all. Par for the course. We shouldn't have traded for Taylor, started Evans all year, reworked his deal for 1-2 million over 3 years, and would have had a 2nd round pick still.

We have 1 DE on the roster. We have 4 draft picks, and blew our cap wad on 3 guys, and need a SLB, and 4-6 O-linemen.

We have no choice to sign puds like Daniels. Unless we're just going to pull 4-5 DEs out of the matrix.

The funny part is we are almost forced to trade back. If we had a 2nd, we'd use the 1st on a future LT, starting RT, as that is depth in draft, instead we'll trade down.


no problem with trading down.. the players at the end of round1/start of round 2 are little different in quality. plus, they are a whole lot cheaper in round 2..

[skinsfaninva]

Not mind boggling at all. Par for the course. We shouldn't have traded for Taylor, started Evans all year, reworked his deal for 1-2 million over 3 years, and would have had a 2nd round pick still.

We have 1 DE on the roster. We have 4 draft picks, and blew our cap wad on 3 guys, and need a SLB, and 4-6 O-linemen.

We have no choice to sign puds like Daniels. Unless we're just going to pull 4-5 DEs out of the matrix.

The funny part is we are almost forced to trade back. If we had a 2nd, we'd use the 1st on a future LT, starting RT, as that is depth in draft, instead we'll trade down.

Don't we have Carter, Jackson, Buzbee, Wilson? That is 4 but only 1 who has played.

We do have AH, Griffin, L Alexander, Monty (assume he is resigned), Golston (assume he is resigned), and something tells me Boschetti at DT.

The way Blache wants his lineman play the run only we are set since he should just put in at DT or big plodders at DE(Daniels fits this mold).:rolleyes:

[skinsfan36]

Andre Carter rushes the passer? News to me :)

lol hes watching film of 2007

[redskin_rich]

Not mind boggling at all. Par for the course. We shouldn't have traded for Taylor, started Evans all year, reworked his deal for 1-2 million over 3 years, and would have had a 2nd round pick still.

We have 1 DE on the roster. We have 4 draft picks, and blew our cap wad on 3 guys, and need a SLB, and 4-6 O-linemen.

We have no choice to sign puds like Daniels. Unless we're just going to pull 4-5 DEs out of the matrix.

The funny part is we are almost forced to trade back. If we had a 2nd, we'd use the 1st on a future LT, starting RT, as that is depth in draft, instead we'll trade down.
Obviously, the Taylor trade was a waste for many reasons but had we done nothing and started Evans, we would have weakened our depth at both the DE and DT positions considerably. I am sure that our defense would have been much worse, we would still be in the same predicament -because Evans reworking his deal early on as a starter, in a contract year, is pure fantasy that could only be dreamed up by a hindsight expert.

Yes, we would have the 2nd round pick and it most likely would have been a few picks higher than where it is now but it was a necessary risk, after losing two DE's for the season. Taylor got hurt with a freak injury and was misused, other than the 2nd Philly game. Blame that on chance, coaching and lack of any kind of shared vision between the front office and the coaching staff but don't act like there was a better alternative weeks away from the regular season.

[skinsfan36]

signing daniels for the vet min wouldnt be terrible since he is strong vs the run but i NEVER want to see him in there on 3rd and 9 when we have wilson/jackson/hopefully someone like sidbury. i think wilson has a good attitude and really looked goo when we got a push up the middle in 07. had a few sacks in the dallas game and playoff game.
SLB and RT are glaring needs. DE comes third and we need to draft one of them.
im wondering if vinny doesnt have some plan to get a 2nd this year to do so but overpaying for it like instead of a 1st next year for a 2nd this year,he gives them a 1st and a 3rd since hes an idiot.
i think blache wants someone who can hold the poa like daniels and someone to blitz from the SLB position(read jt at slb,crowell=no interest by fo since he doesnt rush the passer well) i saw an interview with cody brown from uconn and he said the skins talked to him at the combine among other teams to play OLB.problem is he is a 2nd round pick

[shally]

Obviously, the Taylor trade was a waste for many reasons but had we done nothing and started Evans, we would have weakened our depth at both the DE and DT positions considerably. I am sure that our defense would have been much worse, we would still be in the same predicament -because Evans reworking his deal early on as a starter, in a contract year, is pure fantasy that could only be dreamed up by a hindsight expert.

Yes, we would have the 2nd round pick and it most likely would have been a few picks higher than where it is now but it was a necessary risk, after losing two DE's for the season. Taylor got hurt with a freak injury and was misused, other than the 2nd Philly game. Blame that on chance, coaching and lack of any kind of shared vision between the front office and the coaching staff but don't act like there was a better alternative weeks away from the regular season.

the basic problem was that we were coming off a playoff appearance and the front office obviously thought we were just a player away from a SB appearance (arent we always thus)..

then we had 2 def ends go down in one day. so the front office went into panic mode

[redskin_rich]

the basic problem was that we were coming off a playoff appearance and the front office obviously thought we were just a player away from a SB appearance (arent we always thus)..

then we had 2 def ends go down in one day. so the front office went into panic mode

As much as I disdain our FO, I still don't see it that way, completely. We had the cap room, which would have been not used anyway and the opportunity was there.

The problem I have is that the defensive philosophy didn't mesh with Taylor's talent and any true GM, with a vision shared by the coaches, would know what the coaches need.

Unfortunately, we have a front office that is either as knowledgeable as a novice fantasy football owner or just concerned with generating hype/making money. Or both, which I think is closest to reality.

[nicefellow31]

My goodness. Has this been posted yet? I know we have joked about this but apparently it may actually happen.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/09/daniels-wynn-talk-deals/

They can't be serious.

[shally]

My goodness. Has this been posted yet? I know we have joked about this but apparently it may actually happen.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/09/daniels-wynn-talk-deals/

They can't be serious.

how revolting is that ? bad enough to be squeezed by Daniels, who is coming off knee surgery and "expects to play until he is 40 !!"
but to be re united with Wynn ? that is both beyond belief and a testament to how poorly they have added young players in the Def line the past several years.

unreal..

[joethefan]

blache needs to go and daniels as well with his naked pitures of blache...why else would blache have such a mancrush on this guy....


so many people here are talking about him being strong, well when is he gonna provide some push on the end or up the middle to disrupt some things.....

this is getting rediculous....

[BurgundyNGold]

how revolting is that ? bad enough to be squeezed by Daniels, who is coming off knee surgery and "expects to play until he is 40 !!"
but to be re united with Wynn ? that is both beyond belief and a testament to how poorly they have added young players in the Def line the past several years.

unreal..
According to Scouts, Inc, Daniels rates a 60 (barely a below average starter) and Wynn rates a 54 (average backup).

So, what we have here is a GM who can't identify talent a DC who apparently doesn't want it, lol. Ugh.

blache needs to go and daniels as well with his naked pitures of blache...why else would blache have such a mancrush on this guy....

so many people here are talking about him being strong, well when is he gonna provide some push on the end or up the middle to disrupt some things.....

this is getting rediculous....
Seriously. This is like watching the Titanic careening into the iceberg -- you know what's coming and the time before impending disaster seems really long but there is nothing you can do about it.

[firehawk157]

blache needs to go and daniels as well with his naked pitures of blache...why else would blache have such a mancrush on this guy....


so many people here are talking about him being strong, well when is he gonna provide some push on the end or up the middle to disrupt some things.....

this is getting rediculous....
He does provide a push, but that's all it is, a push. Any QB can just step to the side to avoid the blocker being pushed into him, but what it does help do is collapse the pocket. Evans may have a better speed rush (it's not like 3.5 sacks is some huge number though) but he can be cleanly blocked out of the play whereas Daniels can help collapse the pocket, which he did in 2007 when none of the DTs could. I'm far from a Daniels fan, but for what they want a DE to do, Daniels is one of the better ones. If we had gone with a Jason Taylor or somebody like that, we'd have schemed all the pass rush out of him. Now though, we have some geniune space eaters on the line and that will allow Carter and to a degree Haynesworth more freedom to do what they need to do.

[firehawk157]

According to Scouts, Inc, Daniels rates a 60 (barely a below average starter) and Wynn rates a 54 (average backup).

So, what we have here is a GM who can't identify talent a DC who apparently doesn't want it, lol. Ugh.

Cmon now BNG, you are smarter than this. If scouting was as easy as assigning a number and then listing all the numbers then every team's pro scouting department would consist of one guy who ranked all the players from 1-99.

[Redskin4Life]

signing daniels for the vet min wouldnt be terrible since he is strong vs the run but i NEVER want to see him in there on 3rd and 9 when we have wilson/jackson/hopefully someone like sidbury. i think wilson has a good attitude and really looked goo when we got a push up the middle in 07. had a few sacks in the dallas game and playoff game.
SLB and RT are glaring needs. DE comes third and we need to draft one of them.
im wondering if vinny doesnt have some plan to get a 2nd this year to do so but overpaying for it like instead of a 1st next year for a 2nd this year,he gives them a 1st and a 3rd since hes an idiot.
i think blache wants someone who can hold the poa like daniels and someone to blitz from the SLB position(read jt at slb,crowell=no interest by fo since he doesnt rush the passer well) i saw an interview with cody brown from uconn and he said the skins talked to him at the combine among other teams to play OLB.problem is he is a 2nd round pick
That's how I see Blanche's defense too... but what kills me is that he had the pieces last year when Evans stepped up at DE. Evans at DE, Taylor at SAM and we would have been a pretty strong team defensively. I mean JTaylor is a better version of Marcus Washington... yet Washington was in there WAY TOO much last season on 3rd down, getting burnt left and right.

Instead, we're going into the this offseason with a coach that doesn't like guys that fit his system other than ones he's had before. It's pretty obvious to me that we're getting DEs Daniels and Wynn for at least another year. What I'm hoping for is that Jackson and Wilson learn the SLB position (they're both capable of learning this position), have some of these younger DTs play some LDE (I'm thinking of Golston and/or LoA), sign OT Khalif Barnes and move down in the draft (if we're not in a position to get one of the 4 big OTs). Get a low 1st and a 2nd. Use the first on a guy like Aaron Maybin (with his athleticism, we can convert him to SLB) and get a DE that fits this stupid scheme like Tyson Jackson in the second. The third... we go after a OG/C.

Our OL would look like this:
Samuels, Dockery, Rabach, Thomas, Barnes, Heyer, Jansen (OT/OG), draftee, Kendall (assuming we resign him to a one year deal)

Our LB corp would look like this:
McIntosh, Fletcher, Wilson, R. Jackson, K. Campbell (resign), Maybin

And our DL would look like this:
Carter, Griffin, Haynesworth, Daniels or Wynn, Buzbee, Golston, Montgomery, T. Jackson, L. Alexander

[shally]

That's how I see Blanche's defense too... but what kills me is that he had the pieces last year when Evans stepped up at DE. Evans at DE, Taylor at SAM and we would have been a pretty strong team defensively. I mean JTaylor is a better version of Marcus Washington... yet Washington was in there WAY TOO much last season on 3rd down, getting burnt left and right.

Instead, we're going into the this offseason with a coach that doesn't like guys that fit his system other than ones he's had before. It's pretty obvious to me that we're getting DEs Daniels and Wynn for at least another year. What I'm hoping for is that Jackson and Wilson learn the SLB position (they're both capable of learning this position), have some of these younger DTs play some LDE (I'm thinking of Golston and/or LoA), sign OT Khalif Barnes and move down in the draft (if we're not in a position to get one of the 4 big OTs). Get a low 1st and a 2nd. Use the first on a guy like Aaron Maybin (with his athleticism, we can convert him to SLB) and get a DE that fits this stupid scheme like Tyson Jackson in the second. The third... we go after a OG/C.

Our OL would look like this:
Samuels, Dockery, Rabach, Thomas, Barnes, Heyer, Jansen (OT/OG), draftee, Kendall (assuming we resign him to a one year deal)

Our LB corp would look like this:
McIntosh, Fletcher, Wilson, R. Jackson, K. Campbell (resign), Maybin

And our DL would look like this:
Carter, Griffin, Haynesworth, Daniels or Wynn, Buzbee, Golston, Montgomery, T. Jackson, L. Alexander
there is nothing that indicates that wilson/jackson can play the LB position, and drop and cover

same with maybin, who will be a conversion

[BurgundyNGold]

Cmon now BNG, you are smarter than this.
I'm just using Scouts Inc. as a requisite source because a) they are actual NFL talent professionals, and b) they get paid to do this day in and day out. Theoretically, the same as Vinny. Well, at least the getting paid part is true.

Of course, you can forego all of the fancy numbers and personal reputation associated with numbers and evaluate Daniels and Wynn with your own eyes. If you did, you'd be hard pressed to rate Daniels as any better than a below average starter and Wynn as an average backup. Not coincidentally, that's how Scouts Inc. has them rated.

If scouting was as easy as assigning a number and then listing all the numbers then every team's pro scouting department would consist of one guy who ranked all the players from 1-99.
I'm hoping this is sarcasm. That's *exactly* what they're *supposed* to do, lol. And not just FA, but draft prospects too. ;)

[shally]

I'm just using Scouts Inc. as a requisite source because a) they are actual NFL talent professionals, and b) they get paid to do this day in and day out. Theoretically, the same as Vinny. Well, at least the getting paid part is true.

Of course, you can forego all of the fancy numbers and personal reputation associated with numbers and evaluate Daniels and Wynn with your own eyes. If you did, you'd be hard pressed to rate Daniels as any better than a below average starter and Wynn as an average backup. Not coincidentally, that's how Scouts Inc. has them rated.


I'm hoping this is sarcasm. That's *exactly* what they're *supposed* to do, lol. And not just FA, but draft prospects too. ;)

sigh...

Jags sign Tra Thomas.. meanwhile K Barnes is still out there.. rumors he is re considering the Raiders

while we circle slowly around danielswynndanielswynndanielswynn

[firehawk157]

I'm just using Scouts Inc. as a requisite source because a) they are actual NFL talent professionals, and b) they get paid to do this day in and day out. Theoretically, the same as Vinny. Well, at least the getting paid part is true.

Of course, you can forego all of the fancy numbers and personal reputation associated with numbers and evaluate Daniels and Wynn with your own eyes. If you did, you'd be hard pressed to rate Daniels as any better than a below average starter and Wynn as an average backup. Not coincidentally, that's how Scouts Inc. has them rated.

That's not my point. I'm not arguing that Daniels is a top-flight DE, because he's not. But I'm willing to bet if you looked it up, Scouts has Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney rated fairly highly. But they would do horribly in our scheme, far worse than Daniels probably will. My point is, based on who is out there and the scheme we are going to run, Daniels works just as well as any other FA DE.


I'm hoping this is sarcasm. That's *exactly* what they're *supposed* to do, lol. And not just FA, but draft prospects too. ;)

I hope that's not how our scouting department works. I would rather have a lengthy write-up from a scout stating what is his strength's and weaknesses and where he would project as opposed to a simple numerical value.

[akhhorus]

That's not my point. I'm not arguing that Daniels is a top-flight DE, because he's not. But I'm willing to bet if you looked it up, Scouts has Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney rated fairly highly. But they would do horribly in our scheme, far worse than Daniels probably will. My point is, based on who is out there and the scheme we are going to run, Daniels works just as well as any other FA DE.


Actually Freeney would be perfect for our scheme, but Blache would find a way to destroy his pass rushing skills. Blache is just like giving a heroin addict some more smack: it allows Blache to run his scheme with no push.

I hope that's not how our scouting department works. I would rather have a lengthy write-up from a scout stating what is his strength's and weaknesses and where he would project as opposed to a simple numerical value.

I don't know about that. Most/if not all FO's have a grading system of some variety, and they do their own ranking of the top free agents/draftees on big boards. Since Snyderatto loves them some BPA, I suspect they're very obsessed with ranking players on a tangible scale.

[Gravy]

sigh...

Jags sign Tra Thomas.. meanwhile K Barnes is still out there.. rumors he is re considering the Raiders

while we circle slowly around danielswynndanielswynndanielswynn

...I am starting to think that Barnes is wanting more $$ and I am not sure that teams are wanting to pay him more $$...are the Skins' really in play for him or s just speculation on are part...

[BurgundyNGold]

That's not my point. I'm not arguing that Daniels is a top-flight DE, because he's not. But I'm willing to bet if you looked it up, Scouts has Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney rated fairly highly. But they would do horribly in our scheme, far worse than Daniels probably will. My point is, based on who is out there and the scheme we are going to run, Daniels works just as well as any other FA DE.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Bertrand Berry is an all around solid DE who can also pressure the QB, as needed. So was Igor Olshansky, who managed 3 or so sacks as a DE in 3-4. Berry played DE in both 4-3 and 3-4 schemes so he can hold the POA if necessary and few hold the POA better than Olshansky. And those are just 2 of the better FA choices at DE.

Daniels is past his prime and coming back from a major knee injury. Despite Daniels' delusional references to other suitors, none exist. Just like none existed the last time he was a FA.

By defending having Daniels and Wynn on the roster at the expense of actually tending to a wound in our defense, you're effectively defending Blache and the status quo. You're defending a defense that was once again near the bottom of the league in sacks -- a year removed from setting a record for futility in DL sacks. You're defending a team that was once again near the bottom of the league in turnovers -- a year removed from setting a record for futility in generating turnovers.

Something has to change. If not the system, then the talent (and I use that term loosely when referring to anyone but AH and AC on the DL).

I hope that's not how our scouting department works. I would rather have a lengthy write-up from a scout stating what is his strength's and weaknesses and where he would project as opposed to a simple numerical value.
That is exactly how Scouts Inc works. They have lengthy write ups on the strengths and weaknesses of each player in addition to the score.

If our FO doesn't rank players in a similar fashion, it would explain a lot. Like why JC was picked in the 1st round when nobody else had him that high. And why Carlos rogers was a top 10 pick when he wasn't rated that high. It might also explain why we inexplicably passed on higher rated players while the likes of Justin Tryon, Dallas Sartz, Manny White and a host of other bombs ended up on our team instead of the UDFA heap where they belonged.

[akhhorus]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Bertrand Berry is an all around solid DE who can also pressure the QB, as needed. So was Igor Olshansky, who managed 3 or so sacks as a DE in 3-4. Berry played DE in both 4-3 and 3-4 schemes so he can hold the POA if necessary and few hold the POA better than Olshansky. And those are just 2 of the better FA choices at DE.

But Olshansky isn't a 4-3 DE. I would have liked him at DT, but he would have been awful(probably) in the 4-3.

If our FO doesn't rank players in a similar fashion, it would explain a lot. Like why JC was picked in the 1st round when nobody else had him that high. And why Carlos rogers was a top 10 pick when he wasn't rated that high.

I take some issue with this. If memory serves, Rogers would going anywhere from 8-16(the lowest I put him was at 16 ever) in mock drafts, and Campbell was going from 16-34. We didn't really reach on either based on the common sense of the time.

It might also explain why we inexplicably passed on higher rated players while the likes of Justin Tryon, Dallas Sartz, Manny White and a host of other bombs ended up on our team instead of the UDFA heap where they belonged.

I don't think thats so much bad organization, but laziness.

[shally]

...I am starting to think that Barnes is wanting more $$ and I am not sure that teams are wanting to pay him more $$...are the Skins' really in play for him or s just speculation on are part...


TOTAL speculation at this point

[shally]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Bertrand Berry is an all around solid DE who can also pressure the QB, as needed. So was Igor Olshansky, who managed 3 or so sacks as a DE in 3-4. Berry played DE in both 4-3 and 3-4 schemes so he can hold the POA if necessary and few hold the POA better than Olshansky. And those are just 2 of the better FA choices at DE.

Daniels is past his prime and coming back from a major knee injury. Despite Daniels' delusional references to other suitors, none exist. Just like none existed the last time he was a FA.

By defending having Daniels and Wynn on the roster at the expense of actually tending to a wound in our defense, you're effectively defending Blache and the status quo. You're defending a defense that was once again near the bottom of the league in sacks -- a year removed from setting a record for futility in DL sacks. You're defending a team that was once again near the bottom of the league in turnovers -- a year removed from setting a record for futility in generating turnovers.

Something has to change. If not the system, then the talent (and I use that term loosely when referring to anyone but AH and AC on the DL).


That is exactly how Scouts Inc works. They have lengthy write ups on the strengths and weaknesses of each player in addition to the score.

If our FO doesn't rank players in a similar fashion, it would explain a lot. Like why JC was picked in the 1st round when nobody else had him that high. And why Carlos rogers was a top 10 pick when he wasn't rated that high. It might also explain why we inexplicably passed on higher rated players while the likes of Justin Tryon, Dallas Sartz, Manny White and a host of other bombs ended up on our team instead of the UDFA heap where they belonged.


someone posted comments about olshansky on another thread.. if true, he sounds like a perfect dallas cowboy-- self centered and poor effort..

if true, good riddance, and let him fester in dallas

[BurgundyNGold]

But Olshansky isn't a 4-3 DE. I would have liked him at DT, but he would have been awful(probably) in the 4-3.
No worse than Daniels, who is a DE/DT tweener himself.

I take some issue with this. If memory serves, Rogers would going anywhere from 8-16(the lowest I put him was at 16 ever) in mock drafts, and Campbell was going from 16-34. We didn't really reach on either based on the common sense of the time.
Rogers was a reach at 9 who only got there because moved up into the first round around the spring, as I recall. We picked him were he was projected (3rd CB) but I would not have wasted the 9th pick overall on the 3rd rated CB when the Demarcus Ware and, especially, Shawne Merriman were sitting there. WHo was playing LB for us then? Warrick freaking Holdman, lol? Besides, Fabian Washington went at 23, just before we picked JC. I would have been find with Rogers/Washington at 25.

True, Campbell was the 3rd rated QB, but he absolutely was not/has not been worth a 1st round pick, and definitely not worth rolling 2 1st round picks into 1 to move up to get him. JC was barely rated ahead of Charlie Frye who went in the middle of the 3rd. Campbell was a total reach.


I don't think thats so much bad organization, but laziness.
= bad organization, lol.

You and I spend far more of our free time learning these things. You would think that someone whose job it is to do so would be able to put in at least the same level of effort as we do, lol.

[BurgundyNGold]

someone posted comments about olshansky on another thread.. if true, he sounds like a perfect dallas cowboy-- self centered and poor effort..

if true, good riddance, and let him fester in dallas
I'm not going to slam Olshanky because he is a Cowboy now and some has decided it's time to start up on the bad mouthing. Olshansky has a good motor, everyone knows it.

[skinsfan36]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/09/daniels-wynn-talk-deals/
a package deal of over the hill run stuffers.
imo the titans inquired on daniels just to drive the price up on him(bitter over ah).denver however is interested in building a very old d(running a 3-4 though)

[akhhorus]

No worse than Daniels, who is a DE/DT tweener himself.


For all my dumping on Daniels, he tries hard. He sucks big floppy donkey balls, but he does try. Olshansky has had a question mark about effort/attitude.

Rogers was a reach at 9 who only got there because moved up into the first round around the spring, as I recall. We picked him were he was projected (3rd CB) but I would not have wasted the 9th pick overall on the 3rd rated CB when the Demarcus Ware and, especially, Shawne Merriman were sitting there. WHo was playing LB for us then? Warrick freaking Holdman, lol? Besides, Fabian Washington went at 23, just before we picked JC. I would have been find with Rogers/Washington at 25.


1. He was the 3rd Cb in a draft full of, at the time, great Cb prospects. He still wasn't a reach at 9.
2. Neither Merriman nor Ware would solve our problems at OLB. They're 3-4 LBs, not 4-3 guys since they badly struggle to cover.

True, Campbell was the 3rd rated QB, but he absolutely was not/has not been worth a 1st round pick, and definitely not worth rolling 2 1st round picks into 1 to move up to get him. JC was barely rated ahead of Charlie Frye who went in the middle of the 3rd. Campbell was a total reach.


Retrospectively, that was a bad deal(but its still salvageable). But Campbell was rated way ahead of Charlie Frye(who only went that high because the Browns have easy access to meth).

= bad organization, lol.

You and I spend far more of our free time learning these things. You would think that someone whose job it is to do so would be able to put in at least the same level of effort as we do, lol.

You would think that.

[shally]

I'm not going to slam Olshanky because he is a Cowboy now and some has decided it's time to start up on the bad mouthing. Olshansky has a good motor, everyone knows it.


maybe not so much last year when he found out the chargers were going to re sign him ?

you have to wonder a little bit when a team makes little effort to sign one of it's young players.. we do it all the time.. of course, our front office are idiots.. AJ Smith isnt close to being in Vinny's category and has been pretty sharp in talent evaluations ??

[shally]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/09/daniels-wynn-talk-deals/
a package deal of over the hill run stuffers.
imo the titans inquired on daniels just to drive the price up on him(bitter over ah).denver however is interested in building a very old d(running a 3-4 though)

did wynn really have 25 tackles and 2 sacks last year for the giants ?

[Gravy]

"For all my dumping on Daniels, he tries hard. He sucks big floppy donkey balls, but he does try" -Akh

...Thank you for that laugh

[shally]

[




You and I spend far more of our free time learning these things. You would think that someone whose job it is to do so would be able to put in at least the same level of effort as we do, lol.[/QUOTE]



if you think about it, it is a common affliction among people who are paid to be smarter than other people.. sometimes, they outsmart themselves by
reading obscure things from obvious situations. a very good player gets picked apart because of some nit picking

[BurgundyNGold]

For all my dumping on Daniels, he tries hard. He sucks big floppy donkey balls, but he does try. Olshansky has had a question mark about effort/attitude.
Very well, Olshansy is off the table then. Take your pick of 3 or 4 other FA DE that would help us more than Daniels -- including Evans, lol.

1. He was the 3rd Cb in a draft full of, at the time, great Cb prospects. He still wasn't a reach at 9.
For a team with greater needs at DL/LB, yeah he was. I would have preferred to draft one of those positions or trade down, if possible.

2. Neither Merriman nor Ware would solve our problems at OLB. They're 3-4 LBs, not 4-3 guys since they badly struggle to cover.
WLB doesn't have to cover much and both have been more than adequate in coverage. Normally, I'd agree with the 4-3/3-4 guy rules but in this case. Both guys are beasts and would have been stars in DC. And Merriman was a local kid who wanted to play for us badly.

Retrospectively, that was a bad deal(but its still salvageable). But Campbell was rated way ahead of Charlie Frye(who only went that high because the Browns have easy access to meth).
It was a bad deal and a reach. We could have gotten JC in the 2nd. The pick was especially surprising given that Gibbs wanted to win then. Drafting a developmental QB when we had other pressing needs seemed completely at odds with that.

JC can salvage his career here in DC with a great season upcoming. Honestly, gioven that his hero was Doug Williams, I can see that happening too: 10 years of meh play and then "click" the light comes on and he gets really good. Also known as Steve DeBerg Syndrome, lol.

You would think that.
Aside from CR and JC -- the juries are still out on them -- that 2005 draft was a giant turd in the bed, lol.

[BurgundyNGold]

maybe not so much last year when he found out the chargers were going to re sign him ?

you have to wonder a little bit when a team makes little effort to sign one of it's young players.. we do it all the time.. of course, our front office are idiots.. AJ Smith isnt close to being in Vinny's category and has been pretty sharp in talent evaluations ??
Yeah, but the Chargers haven't signed anyone really have they? They too are up against it.

[BurgundyNGold]

if you think about it, it is a common affliction among people who are paid to be smarter than other people.. sometimes, they outsmart themselves by reading obscure things from obvious situations. a very good player gets picked apart because of some nit picking
I prefer to stick to the principles of Occam's razor. Our FO sucks because it is inadequate to the task, lol.

[shally]

I prefer to stick to the principles of Occam's razor. Our FO sucks because it is inadequate to the task, lol.

yup.. sometimes a jackass is just a jackass

i havent follow the chargers that closely to know their situation. but they did re sign florence, did they not ?

they are trying to re structure LT, and placed the franchise tag on sproles

sound like they are struggling in a lot of ways..Norv can do that to a team

[akhhorus]

Very well, Olshansy is off the table then. Take your pick of 3 or 4 other FA DE that would help us more than Daniels -- including Evans, lol.


I'd go after Berry, Kevin Carter and Stephen Bowen

For a team with greater needs at DL/LB, yeah he was. I would have preferred to draft one of those positions or trade down, if possible.

Okay, but the point was about where he stood in comparison to the other CBs and the draft in general. Not that we needed another position. We had Marcus Washington and Lavar Love Hewitt at OLB, so if we drafted Derrick Johnson or Thomas Davis(or another OLB), that pick would be equally as puzzling as a Qb.

WLB doesn't have to cover much and both have been more than adequate in coverage. Normally, I'd agree with the 4-3/3-4 guy rules but in this case. Both guys are beasts and would have been stars in DC. And Merriman was a local kid who wanted to play for us badly.


I'm sure he would be, but the skins tend to avoid players who mysteriously gain 50 lbs in one year(have for years) and a 3-4 rush LB doesn't have a position here.

It was a bad deal and a reach. We could have gotten JC in the 2nd. The pick was especially surprising given that Gibbs wanted to win then. Drafting a developmental QB when we had other pressing needs seemed completely at odds with that.


No, we couldn't have(if we're going down counterfactual alley). There were a ton of teams itching for him in the bottom of the first/top of the 2nd. And the reason we drafted him was because Gibbs thought Ramsey was drek(which he was).

[akhhorus]

Yeah, but the Chargers haven't signed anyone really have they? They too are up against it.

they're about to dump LDT so that they can resign Goff I believe. Franchising 2nd string RBs tends to squeeze your cap room also lol

[firehawk157]

Actually Freeney would be perfect for our scheme, but Blache would find a way to destroy his pass rushing skills. Blache is just like giving a heroin addict some more smack: it allows Blache to run his scheme with no push.

Freeney would be good in our scheme but only in Carter's place. Like it or not (another topic of debate), what we need a DE to do is hold the POA on runs and Daniels does that well.

I don't know about that. Most/if not all FO's have a grading system of some variety, and they do their own ranking of the top free agents/draftees on big boards. Since Snyderatto loves them some BPA, I suspect they're very obsessed with ranking players on a tangible scale.

Oh, I agree that there is an overall grading system in effect, or there should be but I disagree with the end-all, be-all nature in which some people tend to describe a player's value to our scheme. My major point is that all of the extremely highly rated DEs (usually rated so because of a great pass rushing repoirtore and not because of a run stopping ability) would do horribly in what we need to do.

In order to understand any move the Redskins may or will make towards LDE, you have to understand two things. 1) Blanche IS going to be the DC and he's not changing his scheme very much (I think he will allow Carter to play the pass and Haynesworth some freedom but other than that, no change) and 2) LDE is required to maintain the POA first and foremost.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Bertrand Berry is an all around solid DE who can also pressure the QB, as needed. So was Igor Olshansky, who managed 3 or so sacks as a DE in 3-4. Berry played DE in both 4-3 and 3-4 schemes so he can hold the POA if necessary and few hold the POA better than Olshansky. And those are just 2 of the better FA choices at DE.

Are either of those guys in our price range? Olshansky just went to Dallas and I don't think he had any interest in playing 4-3 DE anyways. Berry still hasn't gotten anywhere so maybe he priced himself out of the market? If we pick up Daniels, it'll be for vet min and at the worst, we could just cut him again if Berry suddenly comes down to a presumably good price.

Daniels is past his prime and coming back from a major knee injury. Despite Daniels' delusional references to other suitors, none exist. Just like none existed the last time he was a FA.

I agree on all points here, but you can't expect Daniels to come out and say something to the effect of, "yeah, I'm pretty desperate and I'm just holding out on the vain hope of a better offer".

By defending having Daniels and Wynn on the roster at the expense of actually tending to a wound in our defense, you're effectively defending Blache and the status quo. You're defending a defense that was once again near the bottom of the league in sacks -- a year removed from setting a record for futility in DL sacks. You're defending a team that was once again near the bottom of the league in turnovers -- a year removed from setting a record for futility in generating turnovers.

Something has to change. If not the system, then the talent (and I use that term loosely when referring to anyone but AH and AC on the DL).

You fail to recognize the difference between defending the status quo and recognizing our (lack of) ability to change it. I've accepted that Blanche will be our DC for 2009 because I know I can either do that or bemoan every move we make because we're just filling out players for a scheme I don't agree with. Daniels, for Blanche's scheme (which we are stuck with), does make some sense.


That is exactly how Scouts Inc works. They have lengthy write ups on the strengths and weaknesses of each player in addition to the score.

If our FO doesn't rank players in a similar fashion, it would explain a lot. Like why JC was picked in the 1st round when nobody else had him that high. And why Carlos rogers was a top 10 pick when he wasn't rated that high. It might also explain why we inexplicably passed on higher rated players while the likes of Justin Tryon, Dallas Sartz, Manny White and a host of other bombs ended up on our team instead of the UDFA heap where they belonged.

Okay, it's not that I disagree with the overall rating, I just disagree with your use of it here. You can't trot it out as the end-all, be-all stat because it's not.

[shally]

I'd go after Berry, Kevin Carter and Stephen Bowen



Okay, but the point was about where he stood in comparison to the other CBs and the draft in general. Not that we needed another position. We had Marcus Washington and Lavar Love Hewitt at OLB, so if we drafted Derrick Johnson or Thomas Davis(or another OLB), that pick would be equally as puzzling as a Qb.



I'm sure he would be, but the skins tend to avoid players who mysteriously gain 50 lbs in one year(have for years) and a 3-4 rush LB doesn't have a position here.



No, we couldn't have(if we're going down counterfactual alley). There were a ton of teams itching for him in the bottom of the first/top of the 2nd. And the reason we drafted him was because Gibbs thought Ramsey was drek(which he was).

carter is as old as wynn and daniels.. what is his advantage over either of them ? plus, he played on a better DL in tampa, why should we expect him to improve with the skins ? all he would be asked to do is hold the point.. will he be any better than the trash Blache's apparently wants ?

[BurgundyNGold]

I'd go after Berry, Kevin Carter and Stephen Bowen
Agreed.


Okay, but the point was about where he stood in comparison to the other CBs and the draft in general. Not that we needed another position. We had Marcus Washington and Lavar Love Hewitt at OLB, so if we drafted Derrick Johnson or Thomas Davis(or another OLB), that pick would be equally as puzzling as a Qb.
Reaching for the 3rd CB in the 9th pick is a bad idea -- especially when you can have the #1 for most other positions there. We didn't need a CB that badly and CR was one of a spate of DB picked in the 1st round by us to the continued neglect of the front 7.

I'm sure he would be, but the skins tend to avoid players who mysteriously gain 50 lbs in one year(have for years) and a 3-4 rush LB doesn't have a position here.
Apparently, a 4-3 rush DE doesn't have a position here, lol.

No, we couldn't have(if we're going down counterfactual alley). There were a ton of teams itching for him in the bottom of the first/top of the 2nd. And the reason we drafted him was because Gibbs thought Ramsey was drek(which he was).
If JC wasn't there in the 2nd, so be it. Would it have been the end of the franchise to not pick him?

I couldn't agree with the pick in 2005 but I decided to reserve final judgment beyond the obvious fact that we gave up too much to get the 25 pick and then reached for the selection. I'm willing to let the JC pick play out, as it's just about to fall one way or the other.

[akhhorus]

Freeney would be good in our scheme but only in Carter's place. Like it or not (another topic of debate), what we need a DE to do is hold the POA on runs and Daniels does that well.


No, we need a pass rusher if we're going to run a cover-2. The reason you get Albert Haynesworth is so that you can use the OLBs to watch the run, and the DEs to get upfield.


Reaching for the 3rd CB in the 9th pick is a bad idea -- especially when you can have the #1 for most other positions there. We didn't need a CB that badly and CR was one of a spate of DB picked in the 1st round by us to the continued neglect of the front 7.

Thats terrible logic. Just because he was the 3rd Cb taken doesn't mean he was potentially worth the pick. And just because one player is the best prospect at his position doesn't mean he's worth the pick.

If JC wasn't there in the 2nd, so be it. Would it have been the end of the franchise to not pick him?


We didn't have a 2nd because of Cooley.

I couldn't agree with the pick in 2005 but I decided to reserve final judgment beyond the obvious fact that we gave up too much to get the 25 pick and then reached for the selection. I'm willing to let the JC pick play out, as it's just about to fall one way or the other.

I agree with that.

carter is as old as wynn and daniels.. what is his advantage over either of them ? plus, he played on a better DL in tampa, why should we expect him to improve with the skins ? all he would be asked to do is hold the point.. will he be any better than the trash Blache's apparently wants ?

Carter can play both inside and out. He's not great, but I'd rather have him than Daniels/Wynn.

[BurgundyNGold]

No, we need a pass rusher if we're going to run a cover-2. The reason you get Albert Haynesworth is so that you can use the OLBs to watch the run, and the DEs to get upfield.
Drafting scheme over talent is a mistake in and of itself.

Thats terrible logic. Just because he was the 3rd Cb taken doesn't mean he was potentially worth the pick. And just because one player is the best prospect at his position doesn't mean he's worth the pick.
If the 3rd best player at a position is better than the #1 and #2 of all other positions -- especially need positions -- then, yes, you are correct in that you can and should take that guy. But that wasn't the case by a long shot. We forced that pick, IMO. It wasn't especially egregious, but when added up alongside the long history of mistakes (in the 2005 draft alone, lol) is why we don't have the talent to get over the hump.

We didn't have a 2nd because of Cooley.
No, but we had 2 1sts. We could have traded down from either and picked up a 2nd.

[hogs86]

Daniels, Wynn talk deals

Phillip Daniels and Renaldo Wynn together again with the Washington Redskins? It could happen.

Daniels said Sunday that Washington's starting defensive ends in 2004 and 2005 might reunite this season.

When healthy the past five seasons, Daniels was a starting end for Washington before having his contract voided at the start of free agency last month. After five years with the Redskins - the first four as a starter - Wynn spent the past two seasons as a backup for New Orleans and the New York Giants.

Daniels, who has started negotiations with the Redskins, said the team has talked to Wynn about coming back, too.

"Renaldo and I have talked about how great it would be if we get this worked out," Daniels said after a workout in his offseason home in Chicago. "We're both getting older, so the Redskins said they could see having both of us at left end for a year or two."

Washington is in dire straits at left end because Jason Taylor and Demetric Evans, the players who manned the position last season when Daniels was out after major knee surgery, are gone. Taylor was cut March 2 after refusing the club's demand that he attend 25 offseason conditioning sessions at Redskin Park. Evans, whom the Redskins didn't try hard to sign before he became a free agent, joined San Francisco on March 4.

Link http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/09/daniels-wynn-talk-deals/

Sorry did not see this posted until i looked back.

[shally]

Daniels, Wynn talk deals

Phillip Daniels and Renaldo Wynn together again with the Washington Redskins? It could happen.

Daniels said Sunday that Washington's starting defensive ends in 2004 and 2005 might reunite this season.

When healthy the past five seasons, Daniels was a starting end for Washington before having his contract voided at the start of free agency last month. After five years with the Redskins - the first four as a starter - Wynn spent the past two seasons as a backup for New Orleans and the New York Giants.

Daniels, who has started negotiations with the Redskins, said the team has talked to Wynn about coming back, too.

"Renaldo and I have talked about how great it would be if we get this worked out," Daniels said after a workout in his offseason home in Chicago. "We're both getting older, so the Redskins said they could see having both of us at left end for a year or two."

Washington is in dire straits at left end because Jason Taylor and Demetric Evans, the players who manned the position last season when Daniels was out after major knee surgery, are gone. Taylor was cut March 2 after refusing the club's demand that he attend 25 offseason conditioning sessions at Redskin Park. Evans, whom the Redskins didn't try hard to sign before he became a free agent, joined San Francisco on March 4.

Link http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/09/daniels-wynn-talk-deals/

we are most assuredly not in "dire straits" when it comes to the D line.
we have some issues, to be sure, but having added AH more than offsets the loss of evans. taylor ? what exactly did he contribute last year ?

i think that if we add Daniels we will be okay for a year, maybe longer if Jackson starts to develope. adding Wynn is "money for nothing" (heh heh heh, just had to throw that in there).
adding Carter, IMHO adds nothing over Daniels. at this point in their careers they are essentially the same player

we need to focus on OLB and adding OL depth, with at least a servicable RT candidate emerging

we can look to add DL depth inthe draft on the second day with another Speed rusher to give competion for jackson/wilson/buzbee but i cannot see using the 13th pick on a D lineman now

[Nomad]

no problem with trading down.. the players at the end of round1/start of round 2 are little different in quality. plus, they are a whole lot cheaper in round 2..
I'm not a draft expert, so I can't say for sure. We have an aging LT, nothing at RT. If we had 7-9 picks, and one of the big-4 Ts looked like a franchiser, I think we would take him. I think most of the trade-downsies this year are the result of a dire need for picks due to FO incompetence.

Ironically, the draft seems to work the exact opposite of the way intended. Teams lower in 1st round are actually in better positions than top-10-pick teams.

My worry is that this year will be the same story as last year. No OL depth, or DE depth. OL that wears down/injured and no one steps up, and no pass rush from the ends. Our FO are retards. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

The crowning stab in the heart would be a 1st round pick used on a SLB rather than DE or OL.

[akhhorus]

Drafting scheme over talent is a mistake in and of itself.

Yes, to some extent, but drafting a player who doesn't have the skills for your scheme probably won't be seen as talent at the end of the day.


If the 3rd best player at a position is better than the #1 and #2 of all other positions -- especially need positions -- then, yes, you are correct in that you can and should take that guy. But that wasn't the case by a long shot. We forced that pick, IMO. It wasn't especially egregious, but when added up alongside the long history of mistakes (in the 2005 draft alone, lol) is why we don't have the talent to get over the hump.

I'm sorry, but you're still wrong about the perceptions of Rogers. He was seen as top ten talent: big, polished, fast(he ran a 4.4 at the combine).

No, but we had 2 1sts. We could have traded down from either and picked up a 2nd.

Based on what? We tried to deal down from 9 into the 20s, and the only serious offer we got(from Seattle) involved picking up a mid round pick(5th I believe).

[BurgundyNGold]

Yes, to some extent, but drafting a player who doesn't have the skills for your scheme probably won't be seen as talent at the end of the day.
Typical Williams/Blache folly -- drafting (or force fitting) a player into the scheme or settling for less talented "scheme" players rather than assembling the best talent and architecting the scheme to best suit the skills of the players.

I'm sorry, but you're still wrong about the perceptions of Rogers. He was seen as top ten talent: big, polished, fast(he ran a 4.4 at the combine).
Top 20 or 25, sure. Top 10? Eh, probably not consensus. He was only slightly more regarded than Fabian Washington (who ran a 4.29 at the combine) and was touted more for being physical (just like GW likes 'em) than polished.

All things being equal, I could live with the CR pick. However, even at the time, I didn't think that was a good value pick. There were other, larger needs and other, larger talents on the board in those areas. I can't fault the pick too much, but I still think it was a reach.

Based on what? We tried to deal down from 9 into the 20s, and the only serious offer we got(from Seattle) involved picking up a mid round pick(5th I believe).
I don't recall hearing or reading that. If it came from the Redskins FO, unfortunately, it isn't too trustworthy.

[akhhorus]

Typical Williams/Blache folly -- drafting (or force fitting) a player into the scheme or settling for less talented "scheme" players rather than assembling the best talent and architecting the scheme to best suit the skills of the players.


Thats not really relevant to the point. If you take a 3-4 rush Lb and ask him to cover half of the time, the odds are he won't be seen as talented(or worth the pick). You can't just say: "well if we drafted DeMarcus Ware, we would have the same Ware who has been playing for the cowboys these last few years." That's counterfactual gibberish.

Top 20 or 25, sure. Top 10? Eh, probably not consensus. He was only slightly more regarded than Fabian Washington (who ran a 4.29 at the combine) and was touted more for being physical (just like GW likes 'em) than polished.


Fabian Washington was seen as a burner with little cover skills and the raiders reached for him. He was NOT seen as slightly worse than Rogers. And Rogers was seen as a top 10-15 player.

All things being equal, I could live with the CR pick. However, even at the time, I didn't think that was a good value pick. There were other, larger needs and other, larger talents on the board in those areas. I can't fault the pick too much, but I still think it was a reach.


Except that the players you want to hold up as who we should have taken were far from sure bets to thrive with the 4-3s we ran.

I don't recall hearing or reading that. If it came from the Redskins FO, unfortunately, it isn't too trustworthy.

It was from ESPN, not the Skins' FO.

[BurgundyNGold]

Thats not really relevant to the point. If you take a 3-4 rush Lb and ask him to cover half of the time, the odds are he won't be seen as talented(or worth the pick).
It's relevant if you insist on playing a cover 2 (that doesn't work and that you don't have the personnel for anyway) instead of putting a 6'-4", 272 pound Shawne Merriman's hand in the dirt at DE. That's 20 lbs heavier than Andre Carter and 30 lbs heavier than Jason Taylor, BTW.

Fabian Washington was seen as a burner with little cover skills and the raiders reached for him. He was NOT seen as slightly worse than Rogers. And Rogers was seen as a top 15 player.
OK, well all of this is conjecture that we're not going to agree upon. I will admit, however, that Rogers has been the class of those top 4 picks. The again, that's not too terribly hard to do when Pac Man is effing the curve, lol.

Except that the players you want to hold up as who we should have taken were far from sure bets to thrive with the 4-3s we ran.
In your estimation. You've pigeon holed Merriman and Ware as 3-4 OLBs just as you've pigeon holed Olshansky as a 3-4 DE. I wasn't willing to concede that about Merriman or Ware in 2005 and it was not a consensus either way.

In the end, the Rogers pick was a reach but not a bad one. We could have done better and I would have made a different pick. But truth be told, we made out OK and could have done a whole lot worse (Mike Williams, ugh, lol).

It was from ESPN, not the Skins' FO.
I still don't recall reading it, but I don't doubt that someone might have reported that.

[Redskin4Life]

there is nothing that indicates that wilson/jackson can play the LB position, and drop and cover

same with maybin, who will be a conversion
I'm assuming that JTaylor really can't either so for the coaches to find a way to utilize him makes me believe that:

(1) he was either going to be used as a SLB that played near the line of scrimmage (and the other 2 LBs holding the middle of the field) while Horton would cheat up (playing basically a LB) and Landry going Cover-1

or

(2) he was going to play DE on the right and we were going to put more pressure up front with Haynesworth in the middle

If we were going with (2), we wouldn't have been looking at Canty or Daniels (essentially DTs that would be asked to play DE) and we would be looking at getting SEVERAL LBs in here (before and especially after JT left). Not to mention we wouldn't have talked to Orakpo and othes about playing SLB for us when they've been playing DE in college.

I think we're going to be using some form of (1), which wouldn't require Jackson or Wilson to cover without help, and we would essentially have 5 on the line (so it's not like Jackson/Wilson would have to cover for a long time). And I'd like to bring it up again... Rob Jackson played DE/LB in college (so he's done it before).

[akhhorus]

It's relevant if you insist on playing a cover 2 (that doesn't work and that you don't have the personnel for anyway) instead of putting a 6'-4", 272 pound Shawne Merriman's hand in the dirt at DE. That's 20 lbs heavier than Andre Carter and 30 lbs heavier than Jason Taylor, BTW.

You know as well as I know that it takes more than sheer size to play a position. Ware would be a better choice in that event since he does play in a 3 point stance sometimes(but he's not built to take that pounding all the time), Merriman has been tried there(and its been a disaster). But still, you're looking at highlights from the last 3 years thinking that we would have seen those highlights if we just drafted Xyz. There's enough to dump on Snyderatto with without having to start with counterfactuals.

OK, well all of this is conjecture that we're not going to agree upon. I will admit, however, that Rogers has been the class of those top 4 picks. The again, that's not too terribly hard to do when Pac Man is effing the curve, lol.


That doesn't matter. You're looking retrospectively and trying to condemn for Gms not having your hindsight. And nevermind that Joe Gibbs made those picks, not Vinny Cerrato.

In your estimation. You've pigeon holed Merriman and Ware as 3-4 OLBs just as you've pigeon holed Olshansky as a 3-4 DE. I wasn't willing to concede that about Merriman or Ware in 2005 and it was not a consensus either way.


See way above. And Olshansky's combine 40 was 5(4.98). Thats DT speed. DEs now need to be much faster than that(Orakpo for instance runs a 4.7).

In the end, the Rogers pick was a reach but not a bad one. We could have done better and I would have made a different pick. But truth be told, we made out OK and could have done a whole lot worse (Mike Williams, ugh, lol).


Rogers would be a great pick, if they would just play him man lock all the time. He's shown he's very good doing that, but they insist on playing zones with him.

I still don't recall reading it, but I don't doubt that someone might have reported that.

I remember that report quite clearly.

[BurgundyNGold]

You know as well as I know that it takes more than sheer size to play a position. Ware would be a better choice in that event since he does play in a 3 point stance sometimes(but he's not built to take that pounding all the time), Merriman has been tried there(and its been a disaster). But still, you're looking at highlights from the last 3 years thinking that we would have seen those highlights if we just drafted Xyz. There's enough to dump on Snyderatto with without having to start with counterfactuals.
Don't start that game where you call OOB and "counterfactual" anything other than what actually happened. Part of this discussion is conjecture, provided it's reasonable and contained. Otherwise, saying things that JC has been anything other than ordinary, which he has been, should be OOB as it is also counterfactual. "If" the OL was good, JC would have been better. "If" he had real receivers, he'd be better. Counterfactuals both.

I'm not saying that Merriman would have been great here or even good. I'm just saying that the Redskins reached for the 3rd best player at a position when higher rated players existed at bigger need positions (DE and OLB).

That doesn't matter. You're looking retrospectively and trying to condemn for Gms not having your hindsight. And nevermind that Joe Gibbs made those picks, not Vinny Cerrato.
I blame whoever made those picks. And it's not hindsight if I said it at the time. It's recall. ;)

See way above. And Olshansky's combine 40 was 5(4.98). Thats DT speed. DEs now need to be much faster than that(Orakpo for instance runs a 4.7).
I wonder what Daniels and Wynn run these days. We might need to measure them in epochs, lol.

Rogers would be a great pick, if they would just play him man lock all the time. He's shown he's very good doing that, but they insist on playing zones with him.
I half agree. The other half requires Rogers to start catching balls. He's going to continually get targeted because teams do not fear him.

I remember that report quite clearly.
The only one I can find for ESPN reports the Redskins "settling on" Rogers after failing to be able to trade *up*.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/news/story?id=2044273

[akhhorus]

Don't start that game where you call OOB and "counterfactual" anything other than what actually happened. That's like saying that JC has been anything other than ordinary, which he has been, because it would be a counterfactual. "If" the OL was good, JC would have been better. "If" he had real receivers, he'd be better. Counterfactuals both.


Except that I can point to Moss and ARE's drops, and a statistical trend that JC's stats fall apart after Chris Samuels got hurt. So, I have some basis of evidence(whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant). Saying that "If we drafted ___________ at pick 9 in 2005, we would be __________" is a pure counterfactual. You cannot possibly prove it either way. I can prove that if JC had WRs who didn't grease their fingers with lard during the pregame he would be seen as a better QB(comedic license).

I'm not saying that Merriman would have been great here or even good. I'm just saying that the Redskins reached for the 3rd best player at a position when higher rated players existed at bigger need positions (DE and OLB).

I agree that DE was a need, but Merriman wasn't an answer for that, and he had roid questions. OLB was not a need because we had LLh and Washington. And Rogers being the 3rd best prospect at his position(solely based on where he was drafted), doesn't matter.

I blame whoever made those picks. And it's not hindsight if I said it at the time. It's recall. ;)


Then start calling out Gibbs.

I wonder what Daniels and Wynn run these days. We might need to measure them in epochs, lol.


5 days/40 yards.

I half agree. The other half requires Rogers to start catching balls. He's going to continually get targeted because teams do not fear him.


I'd be happy if he batted balls away and covered well. He's shown he can do that lol. He's actually a pretty good Cb if you don't play him loose.

The only one I can find form ESPN reports the Redskins "stelling on" Rogers after failing to be able to trade *up*.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/news/story?id=2044273

That's probably based on the supposed "9 and 25 to miami for 2 so they could take Braylon Edwards" rumor.

[shally]

I'm assuming that JTaylor really can't either so for the coaches to find a way to utilize him makes me believe that:

(1) he was either going to be used as a SLB that played near the line of scrimmage (and the other 2 LBs holding the middle of the field) while Horton would cheat up (playing basically a LB) and Landry going Cover-1

or

(2) he was going to play DE on the right and we were going to put more pressure up front with Haynesworth in the middle

If we were going with (2), we wouldn't have been looking at Canty or Daniels (essentially DTs that would be asked to play DE) and we would be looking at getting SEVERAL LBs in here (before and especially after JT left). Not to mention we wouldn't have talked to Orakpo and othes about playing SLB for us when they've been playing DE in college.

I think we're going to be using some form of (1), which wouldn't require Jackson or Wilson to cover without help, and we would essentially have 5 on the line (so it's not like Jackson/Wilson would have to cover for a long time). And I'd like to bring it up again... Rob Jackson played DE/LB in college (so he's done it before).


i think you are giving the coaches and front office much more credit for thinking and foresight than they deserve.

the have no clue what they want to do with a lot of their players.. JT was an egregious example of that.. same with Arch.. same with ARE (who is not, and never will be a legitimate wideout-- he is a slot/specialty player)

they make the same kind of error over and over

[BurgundyNGold]

Except that I can point to Moss and ARE's drops, and a statistical trend that JC's stats fall apart after Chris Samuels got hurt. So, I have some basis of evidence(whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant). Saying that "If we drafted ___________ at pick 9 in 2005, we would be __________" is a pure counterfactual. You cannot possibly prove it either way. I can prove that if JC had WRs who didn't grease their fingers with lard during the pregame he would be seen as a better QB(comedic license).
Ah, but yours is a counterfactual of a different color. The supposition "If Chris Samuels had stayed healthy, JC would have been statistically better" is no less a counterfactual.

Besides, I didn't say "If we drafted ___________ at pick 9 in 2005, we would be __________". I said that I thought that drafting Carlos Rogers was a reach, that I would have drafted someone else because I thought them a better pick. I'm not going to make the argument they would have been better or worse, which it's unprovable, only that I would have selected them.

I agree that DE was a need, but Merriman wasn't an answer for that, and he had roid questions. OLB was not a need because we had LLh and Washington. And Rogers being the 3rd best prospect at his position(solely based on where he was drafted), doesn't matter.
Wasn't this the same LLH that was big time injured in 2004? Wasn't this this same Redskins who had an UDFA named Lemar Marshall playing OLB? We had big needs there but you are correct in the roids concern. That is the reason that Merriman dropped.

Then start calling out Gibbs.
I have no problem calling out Gibbs for those decisions. I just choose to not let the other 2/3 of the troika (which is still in place) off without prosecution.

I'd be happy if he batted balls away and covered well. He's shown he can do that lol. He's actually a pretty good Cb if you don't play him loose.
He's got to start catching or the Redskins are not going to re-sign him. They'll let him walk.

That's probably based on the supposed "9 and 25 to miami for 2 so they could take Braylon Edwards" rumor.
That's the only one I've heard about the Redskins moving anywhere. The mighty Google can't seem to find anything over at ESPN about a trade down.

[akhhorus]

Ah, but yours is a counterfactual of a different color. The supposition "If Chris Samuels had stayed healthy, JC would have been statistically better" is no less a counterfactual.

Besides, I didn't say "If we drafted ___________ at pick 9 in 2005, we would be __________". I said that I thought that drafting Carlos Rogers was a reach, that I would have drafted someone else because I thought them a better pick. I'm not going to make the argument they would have been better or worse, which it's unprovable, only that I would have selected them.

Except that I have 7 games of JC with Samuels healthy and 9 games without him healthy for a statistical basis, we can argue on whether or not Samuels was the causality for the statistical difference all we want, but thats not counterfactual.

Wasn't this the same LLH that was big time injured in 2004? Wasn't this this same Redskins who had an UDFA named Lemar Marshall playing OLB? We had big needs there but you are correct in the roids concern. That is the reason that Merriman dropped.


But Lavar Love Hewitt was healthy enough to play in the opener(he wasn't starting, but that probably had more to do with Dale Lindsey). And Washington was primed for a big season(which he had). OLB wasn't a concern.

And I pointed out the Roids thing because the Skins, for whatever reason, seem to avoid players tied to PEDs like the plague since the Norvile years.

I have no problem calling out Gibbs for those decisions. I just choose to not let the other 2/3 of the troika (which is still in place) off without prosecution.


And I don't doubt that they had some culpability. But Gibbs made the decision. Nothing short of Cerrato taking hostages forcing him to make said picks absolves Gibbs.

He's got to start catching or the Redskins are not going to re-sign him. They'll let him walk.


Yeah, and they really shouldn't let him walk. You're not going to draft or find someone that easily to replace him.

That's the only one I've heard about the Redskins moving anywhere. The mighty Google can't seem to find anything over at ESPN about a trade down.

I know, I can't find a link for it either. I know we discussed it here and I know I saw that rumor on ESPN.

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

Well if the Skins are going to sign Daniels or Wynn it better be for cheap deals where it is easy to cut them in TC if we happen to draft a DE early enough.

[BurgundyNGold]

Except that I have 7 games of JC with Samuels healthy and 9 games without him healthy for a statistical basis, we can argue on whether or not Samuels was the causality for the statistical difference all we want, but thats not counterfactual.
By definition, it is. You're arguing a conditional of what would be the case if Samuels hadn't gotten hurt. Similarly, by definition, if one argued "If JC had real receivers, he would have been much better statistically." it too would be a counterfactual, as such was not the case. Furthermore, we do not know that some other receivers would not have dropped those balls just the same.

But Lavar Love Hewitt was healthy enough to play in the opener(he wasn't starting, but that probably had more to do with Dale Lindsey). And Washington was primed for a big season(which he had). OLB wasn't a concern.
Only to teams like Washington where next season is the only season ever, lol.

And I pointed out the Roids thing because the Skins, for whatever reason, seem to avoid players tied to PEDs like the plague since the Norvile years.
That's a logical conclusion to draw about Merriman. It doesn't excuse passing on some other players, but that's neither here nor there. Personally, I would have traded down. If stuck, I would have drafted Merriman. The Rogers pick wasn't the end of the world, as he is a contributing member of the team.

And I don't doubt that they had some culpability. But Gibbs made the decision. Nothing short of Cerrato taking hostages forcing him to make said picks absolves Gibbs.
I'm not absolving Gibbs. Aside from common sense, he has said that he is/was responsible for everything Redskin related between 2004-2007. But I don't absolve Snyderrato either since the FO modus operandi from 2004-2007 was exactly the same as 2000, 2002-2003 and 2008-present.

Yeah, and they really shouldn't let him walk. You're not going to draft or find someone that easily to replace him.
Agreed, but without the picks, he's going to ask for a figure that the Redskins FO simply can't justify. Having DeAngelo Hall locked up also gives the FO more options.

I know, I can't find a link for it either. I know we discussed it here and I know I saw that rumor on ESPN.
Honestly, it does sound familiar, but I'm also certain I never got the chance to read any such article.

[akhhorus]

By definition, it is. You're arguing a conditional of what would be the case if Samuels hadn't gotten hurt. Similarly, by definition, if one argued "If JC had real receivers, he would have been much better statistically." it too would be a counterfactual, as such was not the case. Furthermore, we do not know that some other receivers would not have dropped those balls just the same.


No, I would be arguing causality in that case. Arguing over whether or not other WRs would drop those balls would be a counterfactual if discussing specific WRs. Saying that JC would be better if his WRs didn't drop the ball so much isn't.

Only to teams like Washington where next season is the only season ever, lol.

That's a logical conclusion to draw about Merriman. It doesn't excuse passing on some other players, but that's neither here nor there. Personally, I would have traded down. If stuck, I would have drafted Merriman. The Rogers pick wasn't the end of the world, as he is a contributing member of the team.

It doesn't excuse passing on guys like Luis Castillo or Jammal Brown, but hindsight isn't that fair to be judging on.

I'm not absolving Gibbs. Aside from common sense, he has said that he is/was responsible for everything Redskin related between 2004-2007. But I don't absolve Snyderrato either since the FO modus operandi from 2004-2007 was exactly the same as 2000, 2002-2003 and 2008-present.

Not really, no. There's a noticeable difference in the FAs signed and players drafted under Snyderatto than under Gibbs+Snyderatto.

Agreed, but without the picks, he's going to ask for a figure that the Redskins FO simply can't justify. Having DeAngelo Hall locked up also gives the FO more options.


Depends on the cap situ. If there is a cap, Rogers goes into a FA market with(potentially) Marlin Jackson, Nick Harper, Cedric Griffin, Richard Marshall, Mike McKenzie, Antonie Winfield and Fabian Washington competing for deals.

[BurgundyNGold]

No, I would be arguing causality in that case. Arguing over whether or not other WRs would drop those balls would be a counterfactual if discussing specific WRs. Saying that JC would be better if his WRs didn't drop the ball so much isn't.
I'm not going to dwell on the semantics because we'll both get tired of it. You get my point.

It doesn't excuse passing on guys like Luis Castillo or Jammal Brown, but hindsight isn't that fair to be judging on.
Castillo has andro concerns, no? It would go to the same vein of thought, I'm thinking. Interesting both he and Merriman ended up in Sand Diego, lol.

Not really, no. There's a noticeable difference in the FAs signed and players drafted under Snyderatto than under Gibbs+Snyderatto.
Not in results. In fact, our drafting with Vinny in charge of scouting (2000, 2002-present) has been worse than Detroit under Millen, if you go by percentage of players still in the league.

Depends on the cap situ. If there is a cap, Rogers goes into a FA market with(potentially) Marlin Jackson, Nick Harper, Cedric Griffin, Richard Marshall, Mike McKenzie, Antonie Winfield and Fabian Washington competing for deals.
That would make it tougher for him, but he'd likely be considered a top 3 CB n that market.

[shally]

I'm not going to dwell on the semantics because we'll both get tired of it. You get my point.


Castillo has andro concerns, no? It would go to the same vein of thought, I'm thinking. Interesting both he and Merriman ended up in Sand Diego, lol.


Not in results. In fact, our drafting with Vinny in charge of scouting (2000, 2002-present) has been worse than Detroit under Millen, if you go by percentage of players still in the league.


That would make it tougher for him, but he'd likely be considered a top 3 CB n that market.


respectfully, i think millens has been worse given the number of top picks he has had..but that is small comfort when you are being compared to the worst GM in the modern age

[akhhorus]

I'm not going to dwell on the semantics because we'll both get tired of it. You get my point.


Indeed lol

Castillo has andro concerns, no? It would go to the same vein of thought, I'm thinking. Interesting both he and Merriman ended up in Sand Diego, lol.

He did admit it to teams pre-draft, I would have taken him and played him at the UT spot.

Not in results. In fact, our drafting with Vinny in charge of scouting (2000, 2002-present) has been worse than Detroit under Millen, if you go by percentage of players still in the league.


Actually, I would say the results are different. Gibbs botched late round picks(why is for another day), but he could be counted for a good(or at least moderately effective) 1st day picks. But in terms of what they draft(stylistically), it really couldn't be more night and day imo.

That would make it tougher for him, but he'd likely be considered a top 3 CB n that market.

At the least, it would tamp down his price.

[Skins-fo-life]

With the Skins going after Daniels and possibly Wynn it makes alot of us on here sick. I'm begining to think that the motto is whoever they stick beside Haynesworth will produce regardless of age or explosivness. I for one think the defense will be worse this year simply due to all the holes. They have to dig through the scraps for lineman and linebackers. There are quality players out there still such as Cato June or even Derrike Brooks for just a year. Even if the 1st rounder goes on an end or linebacker I'm skeptical of if they can even can contribute right off the bat. When you think about the draft, nobody knows what the FO will draft. Did anyone honestly think that 2 WR's and a TE would be picked? I didn't. For all we know they could draft a QB, Safety, or a CB even though greater needs are present. Well at least we aren't the Raiders.

[shally]

With the Skins going after Daniels and possibly Wynn it makes alot of us on here sick. I'm begining to think that the motto is whoever they stick beside Haynesworth will produce regardless of age or explosivness. I for one think the defense will be worse this year simply due to all the holes. They have to dig through the scraps for lineman and linebackers. There are quality players out there still such as Cato June or even Derrike Brooks for just a year. Even if the 1st rounder goes on an end or linebacker I'm skeptical of if they can even can contribute right off the bat. When you think about the draft, nobody knows what the FO will draft. Did anyone honestly think that 2 WR's and a TE would be picked? I didn't. For all we know they could draft a QB, Safety, or a CB even though greater needs are present. Well at least we aren't the Raiders.


i can see vinny going after june or brooks a lot faster than any DE.. WHY ? because Blache wants his ends to be run stoppers-- period
second task for them is tying up offensive linemen

third task? dropping into zone coverage.. that ought to be a hoot seeing
PD backpeddling intot he passing lanes

but that is what blache wants. he doesnt care if he gets any pass rush out of his DE's most of the time..he will just about have a stroke if they do anything on their own

[skinsfan36]

if we resign the dino duo to rotate at left end then we would have
LE daniels,wynn,wilson
RE carter,jackson
i hope we still draft someone.preferably in the 1st or 3rd after the 4th those des are ehh

[MadDog97]

i can see vinny going after june or brooks a lot faster than any DE.. WHY ? because Blache wants his ends to be run stoppers-- period
second task for them is tying up offensive linemen

third task? dropping into zone coverage.. that ought to be a hoot seeing
PD backpeddling intot he passing lanes

but that is what blache wants. he doesnt care if he gets any pass rush out of his DE's most of the time..he will just about have a stroke if they do anything on their own

I am sure the Skins should focus on the offensive line and maybe an outside linebacker. They should stick to the offensive line but the problem seems to be Blache, even though his schemes keep us in the top 10 of defenses on a regular basis.

[Gravy]

i can see vinny going after june or brooks a lot faster than any DE.. WHY ? because Blache wants his ends to be run stoppers-- period
second task for them is tying up offensive linemen

third task? dropping into zone coverage.. that ought to be a hoot seeing
PD backpeddling intot he passing lanes

but that is what blache wants. he doesnt care if he gets any pass rush out of his DE's most of the time..he will just about have a stroke if they do anything on their own

Geez...I was with you Shally on thinking they cleared the cap space because they were gonna either make a trade or there was still that one big name on their list to buy...What does Vinny do? Remember that show "V" from the 80's...is it possible that Vinny is...

[shally]

if we resign the dino duo to rotate at left end then we would have
LE daniels,wynn,wilson
RE carter,jackson
i hope we still draft someone.preferably in the 1st or 3rd after the 4th those des are ehh

if we sign those 2, i honestly dont expect anything except a late pick for DL

i am okay with that as long as we use the remainder for OL and LB, and maybe another corner

[shally]

Geez...I was with you Shally on thinking they cleared the cap space because they were gonna either make a trade or there was still that one big name on their list to buy...What does Vinny do? Remember that show "V" from the 80's...is it possible that Vinny is...

shows that i dont have a clue as to what Vinny is up to..

actually, shows that Vinny is clueless himself.. sad commentary on the state of affairs

[MadDog97]

shows that i dont have a clue as to what Vinny is up to..

actually, shows that Vinny is clueless himself.. sad commentary on the state of affairs

It just shows that Vinnie is just as much as an idiot as we all believe he is. The point is letting Demetric Evans go was crazy.


:sun:

[bergiemoore]

At this time, what free agent DE's are out there that would be upgrades over Daniels, Jackson, Buzbee and Wilson?

Earl Cochran? Mike Montgomery?

[akhhorus]

At this time, what free agent DE's are out there that would be upgrades over Daniels, Jackson, Buzbee and Wilson?

Earl Cochran? Mike Montgomery?

Bertrand Berry, Deacon Jones, Ebenezer Ekuban, Charles Mann, Marques Douglas, Vonnie Holliday..anyone who has functioning legs...

[BurgundyNGold]

At this time, what free agent DE's are out there that would be upgrades over Daniels, Jackson, Buzbee and Wilson?

Earl Cochran? Mike Montgomery?
This question is a week late. It should have been asked a week ago (by the FO, as well) when we released Jason Taylor and less DE has signed with other teams.

But, a week later, we still have these options that are better than Daniels:

Betrand Berry
Vonnie Holiday,
Kevin Carter,
Michael Montgomery,
Victor Adeyanju,
Kalimba Edwards

If we're talking better than Wynn, Buzbee and Wilson:

Ebenezer Ekuban
Kenechi Udeze
Stephen Bowen
Josh Thomas
Jason Babin
John Engelberger
Orhpeus Roye
Jason Hunter

[shally]

This question is a week late. It should have been asked a week ago (by the FO, as well) when we released Jason Taylor and less DE has signed with other teams.

But, a week later, we still have these options that are better than Daniels:

Betrand Berry
Vonnie Holiday,
Kevin Carter,
Michael Montgomery,
Victor Adeyanju,
Kalimba Edwards

If we're talking better than Wynn, Buzbee and Wilson:

Ebenezer Ekuban
Kenechi Udeze
Stephen Bowen
Josh Thomas
Jason Babin
John Engelberger
Orhpeus Roye
Jason Hunter

i think that Bowen got signed yesterday ??

but the purpose of guys like Buzbee and Wilson are that they are really cheap. in that sennse they are not equivalent to Engleberger, Roye, Udez,
Ekuban-- all of whom will cost more because they have been in the league a lot longer.. all the above have little upside..maybe we get lucky with one of the young guys ?

[bergiemoore]

i think that Bowen got signed yesterday ??

but the purpose of guys like Buzbee and Wilson are that they are really cheap. in that sennse they are not equivalent to Engleberger, Roye, Udez,
Ekuban-- all of whom will cost more because they have been in the league a lot longer.. all the above have little upside..maybe we get lucky with one of the young guys ?

In your opinion, should the Skins try to sign one of the younger UFAs like Montgomery(25) or Adeyanju(26), or should then try and stand pat with the Buzbee, Wilson, and Jackson rotation?

[BurgundyNGold]

i think that Bowen got signed yesterday ??
Not that I've seen reported.

but the purpose of guys like Buzbee and Wilson are that they are really cheap. in that sennse they are not equivalent to Engleberger, Roye, Udez,
Ekuban-- all of whom will cost more because they have been in the league a lot longer.. all the above have little upside..maybe we get lucky with one of the young guys ?
They also have experience as NFL starter and have shown they are better than what we have -- especially since Wynn hasn 't been much to speak of in 5 years, Wilson has been barely a spot player and Jackson/Buzbee have shown nothing at the NFL level to anyone, ever that would hint that they are even competent backups.

That seems a really, REALLY bad strategy to me. But hey, why not. Take your shot at rolling the hard 8. Snyderrato is.

[AliBabba]

Not that I've seen reported.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/10/mangini-strikes-again/

[LATrueRedskin]

Bertrand Berry, Deacon Jones, Ebenezer Ekuban, Charles Mann, Marques Douglas, Vonnie Holliday..anyone who has functioning legs...

Anybody on that list is better then what we have, which is sad. Especially since Charles Mann is on that list.

[BurgundyNGold]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/10/mangini-strikes-again/
I listed Stephen Bowen.

[AliBabba]

I listed Stephen Bowen.
whoops, only read Shally's post and your followup

[shally]

Not that I've seen reported.


They also have experience as NFL starter and have shown they are better than what we have -- especially since Wynn hasn 't been much to speak of in 5 years, Wilson has been barely a spot player and Jackson/Buzbee have shown nothing at the NFL level to anyone, ever that would hint that they are even competent backups.

That seems a really, REALLY bad strategy to me. But hey, why not. Take your shot at rolling the hard 8. Snyderrato is.

i think wynn had 25 tackles and 2 sacks last year in reserve roles for the giants... better than what we got out of wilson/buzbee/james/daniels...

not advocating wynn.. but we could do worse (possibly..lol)

[BurgundyNGold]

i think wynn had 25 tackles and 2 sacks last year in reserve roles for the giants... better than what we got out of wilson/buzbee/james/daniels...

not advocating wynn.. but we could do worse (possibly..lol)
Then why don't the Gints want him back? He also played as a reserve on one of, if not the best DL in football. Aside from AH and sometimes (about as often as the letter "Y" is a vowel) Carter and Grif, we have nothing. Literally, nothing. These guys should be working 3rd shift, stacking groceries at the Safeway.

Shally, I watched Wynn play with my own eyes. He was getting beaten soundly for 2 years before he left. The year they cut him, he was getting handled by 2nd and 3rd teamers in preseason games, as well. He couldn't move, it was like he was running in water towards the ball. It was a sad sight. How he got 2 sacks in NY is beyond my comprehension, but bringing back Wynn is the worst possible decision they can make. I'd prefer to start Jackson or Buzbee over that.

[shally]

It just shows that Vinnie is just as much as an idiot as we all believe he is. The point is letting Demetric Evans go was crazy.


:sun:

on that, we will have to agree to disagree.. i think evans was a career mediocrity.. if not for Daniels injury last year, evans gets little playing time anyway.
he has had at least a couple of opportunities to step up and claim the DE position, he hasnt done more than provide valuable reserve play.
i would rather see if jackson/buzbee/wilson can provide better growth.

plus, he wasnt even that strong at the pointi n defending the run

no problem letting him move on.. i actually prefer Daniels to him

[shally]

Then why don't the Gints want him back? He also played as a reserve on one of, if not the best DL in football. Aside from AH and sometimes (about as often as the letter "Y" is a vowel) Carter and Grif, we have nothing. Literally, nothing. These guys should be working 3rd shift, stacking groceries at the Safeway.

Shally, I watched Wynn play with my own eyes. He was getting beaten soundly for 2 years before he left. The year they cut him, he was getting handled by 2nd and 3rd teamers in preseason games, as well. He couldn't move, it was like he was running in water towards the ball. It was a sad sight. How he got 2 sacks in NY is beyond my comprehension, but bringing back Wynn is the worst possible decision they can make. I'd prefer to start Jackson or Buzbee over that.


totally agree with you on buzbee/jackson...

i think if we sign daniels, that is more than enough ancient warriors

[BurgundyNGold]

totally agree with you on buzbee/jackson...

i think if we sign daniels, that is more than enough ancient warriors
While starting Jackson or Buzbee wouldn't be my first choice, logic dictates that it is better to go with an unknown than an unacceptable known.

[Gravy]

While starting Jackson or Buzbee wouldn't be my first choice, logic dictates that it is better to go with an unknown than an unacceptable known.

RIGHT...Wynn is done...Let's see what Jackson can do...can't be any worse...I don't think

[Jon Creveling]

Shally, I watched Wynn play with my own eyes. He was getting beaten soundly for 2 years before he left. The year they cut him, he was getting handled by 2nd and 3rd teamers in preseason games, as well. He couldn't move, it was like he was running in water towards the ball. It was a sad sight. How he got 2 sacks in NY is beyond my comprehension, but bringing back Wynn is the worst possible decision they can make. I'd prefer to start Jackson or Buzbee over that.

B.N.G. agree with you post which is a real sore spot with me. I couldn't stand Wynn way back, like you are saying literally years ago he had nothing left, or wouldn't give you what he did have. Either way I recall calling for his head like 3-4 years ago! The final insult was the sack on Jason for which I'll never forgive Jansen!!:)

At the time I had hope of drafting the guy Udeze, even being so bold as to make my then sig "DRAFT UDEX!" yes I didn't spell his name wrong, just a stupid nickname I came up with.

As far as he goes though I thought but do not know! That he had some off the wall health issue and that his health may be a valid concern. But I do not know that. I'll try and look into it.

I for one can barely stomach the thought of Phil "keep an eye on the d-line" let alone that bum Wynn:confused: I swear I'd rather root for the unknown un proven kids than these two, and yes I'm sure there would be lumps to take But damn it Greg give me someone to root for over these 2 bums!

DRAFT UDEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BurgundyNGold]

B.N.G. agree with you post which is a real sore spot with me. I couldn't stand Wynn way back, like you are saying literally years ago he had nothing left, or wouldn't give you what he did have. Either way I recall calling for his head like 3-4 years ago! The final insult was the sack on Jason for which I'll never forgive Jansen!!:)

At the time I had hope of drafting the guy Udeze, even being so bold as to make my then sig "DRAFT UDEX!" yes I didn't spell his name wrong, just a stupid nickname I came up with.

As far as he goes though I thought but do not know! That he had some off the wall health issue and that his health may be a valid concern. But I do not know that. I'll try and look into it.

I for one can barely stomach the thought of Phil "keep an eye on the d-line" let alone that bum Wynn:confused: I swear I'd rather root for the unknown un proven kids than these two, and yes I'm sure there would be lumps to take But damn it Greg give me someone to root for over these 2 bums!

DRAFT UDEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just so we're clear, we're talking about the worst case scenario (playing Daniels, Wynn) and the penultimate worst case scenario (starting 2 unproven, unknown kids), lol. My first choice would be to address the hole in FA, if we can and then rotate the kids in to see what they can do. At least then, in 2010 we'll have 2 known commodities to base assessments on moving forward.

[Jon Creveling]

Just so we're clear, we're talking about the worst case scenario (playing Daniels, Wynn) and the penultimate worst case scenario (starting 2 unproven, unknown kids), lol. My first choice would be to address the hole in FA, if we can and then rotate the kids in to see what they can do. At least then, in 2010 we'll have 2 known commodities to base assessments on moving forward.

We're clear! If forced to I'd much rather get behind the kids and hope to see progress than know what little we'll get out of these 2, Haynesworth or no Haynesworth! Vinny is realy letting us down on both lines unless somehow/someway the stars align on draft day and he kicks ass!:)

Bringing in both Big Al and Derrick will quickly be negated (now a neutral move) by bringing back the masters of mush on D and whatever patchwork vin and Bugel are cooking up at RT.

Had the false hope that for one shinning moment that Vinny would pry these guys away from Gregs heart!:smash:

[ChiefPowhatan17]

Renaldo Wynn is an actual option. That's insane, he was done here when he left 3 years ago. Why we would take him back is beyond me. He's a nice guy, but nice guys don't win football games. We need youth. Rob Jackson should get the work or Buzbee or a draft pick. This is just silly.

Bringing back Daniels is a risky stretch, but Wynn that's just a joke.

[AliBabba]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/daniels_uncertain_of_skins_int.html
The Redskins offered Daniels a minimum contract, figuring he would accept it and return for his sixth season with them and 14th in the NFL.

But I won't leave my family for what they're offering me. I 'm sure about that.

So we offered him the vet min and he thinks thats not good enough. Either he's gonna have to eat his words or we'll overpay for him ... I'm afraid

[bergiemoore]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/daniels_uncertain_of_skins_int.html




So we offered him the vet min and he thinks thats not good enough. Either he's gonna have to eat his words or we'll overpay for him ... I'm afraid

I'm happy to see restraint from the F.O. in this regard so far. Vinny has actually been very consistent with his comments in paying the FAs still on the market very low figures. I can't understand how Daniels didn't get that message. Could this be the end of Treebeard?

[AliBabba]

I'm happy to see restraint from the F.O. in this regard so far. Vinny has actually been very consistent with his comments in paying the FAs still on the market very low figures. I can't understand how Daniels didn't get that message. Could this be the end of Treebeard?
i certainly hope so, but if there's anything that Vinny can be consistently be counted on it's inconsistency ... and lying ... and incompetence

[shally]

I'm happy to see restraint from the F.O. in this regard so far. Vinny has actually been very consistent with his comments in paying the FAs still on the market very low figures. I can't understand how Daniels didn't get that message. Could this be the end of Treebeard?


nah.. we are truly his last option.. he will sign eventually.. but i can see it being after the draft

[NCskinsfanatic]

nah.. we are truly his last option.. he will sign eventually.. but i can see it being after the draft

He'll sign or he'll retire atleast Wynn appears to be the least delusional of the two.

[shally]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/daniels_uncertain_of_skins_int.html




So we offered him the vet min and he thinks thats not good enough. Either he's gonna have to eat his words or we'll overpay for him ... I'm afraid


he has a better offer on the table from UPS ???

then again, maybe that IS what the wynn signing is all about ?

[BurgundyNGold]

he has a better offer on the table from UPS ???

then again, maybe that IS what the wynn signing is all about ?
Screw Daniels. And Wynn. And Snyderrato, lol.

Sign Berry and end this.

[JasonCampbell]

I dunno about everyone else, but I don't want a single player on the team that has the mindset of 'retire or get paid.' That reeks of not having a desire to play the game anymore.

I still can't imagine why Vinny would want to sign a guy that is 36, coming off an ACL tear, and thinks he's worth more than any team in the NFL is willing to pay him. Is there really no one else that can stop the run at the LDE spot out there?

[shally]

Screw Daniels. And Wynn. And Snyderrato, lol.

Sign Berry and end this.

if only he would.. it would give us the best possible scenario-- age + ability

[shally]

I dunno about everyone else, but I don't want a single player on the team that has the mindset of 'retire or get paid.' That reeks of not having a desire to play the game anymore.

I still can't imagine why Vinny would want to sign a guy that is 36, coming off an ACL tear, and thinks he's worth more than any team in the NFL is willing to pay him. Is there really no one else that can stop the run at the LDE spot out there?


amen.. move on.. one ancient warrior on the d line is enough

[akhhorus]

Daniels leaning towards accepting the Skins' offer (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/daniels_might_return_after_all.html?wprss=redskins insider)

Ho ho ho ho kill me.

[HAWGZHEAD]

I think he should hold out for a higher offer until say, december.

[shally]

Daniels leaning towards accepting the Skins' offer (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/daniels_might_return_after_all.html?wprss=redskins insider)

Ho ho ho ho kill me.

pull it Vinny.. be a Man instead of a worm...

[shally]

Daniels leaning towards accepting the Skins' offer (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/03/daniels_might_return_after_all.html?wprss=redskins insider)

Ho ho ho ho kill me.

shows that at least wynn is semi-rational and not as delusional as daniels

he is going to pray on it ? well, get sean gilbert on the phone right now.
let's see what the Allmighty has to say about this situation..

[NCskinsfanatic]

I think he should hold out for a higher offer until say, december.
Of say 2012...isnt that when the big Asteriod is suppose to end the world according to the Myan calendar?

pull it Vinny.. be a Man instead of a worm...

There's only one thing that Vinny's good at pulling and that's his head out of Danny's backside.

[Gravy]

Hey is George Allen alive and in charge of the FO...thats the only logical reason for all of this...love ya G.A.

[shally]

Of say 2012...isnt that when the big Asteriod is suppose to end the world according to the Myan calendar?



There's only one thing that Vinny's good at pulling and that's his head out of Danny's backside.

:moon2:


uh, NO.. beg to differ with you. it is still in there...

[shally]

Hey is George Allen alive and in charge of the FO...thats the only logical reason for all of this...love ya G.A.

no.. and you know how you can tell ? we still have some draft picks left.. if this was GA, he would have traded every one of them by now

[NCskinsfanatic]

:moon2:


uh, NO.. beg to differ with you. it is still in there...

Well he has to come up for air lol...

[Gravy]

no.. and you know how you can tell ? we still have some draft picks left.. if this was GA, he would have traded every one of them by now

...UM....since when have the Skins' every traded draft picks...it never happens...:rolleyes:

[NCskinsfanatic]

no.. and you know how you can tell ? we still have some draft picks left.. if this was GA, he would have traded every one of them by now

But we'd be competetive , we'd get up for divisonal rivals and there would be accountability....and fire.

[flave1969]

no.. and you know how you can tell ? we still have some draft picks left.. if this was GA, he would have traded every one of them by now

Difference with Allen was he could coach the socks of most players. If I knew Zorn could do what Allen did then I would be happy.

[shally]

...UM....since when have the Skins' every traded draft picks...it never happens...:rolleyes:


the only time allen kept picks was when he couldnt get another team to take them in exchange for a player..

he was famously known for angrily stomping out of the room when he couldnt get anyone to take a #2 pick during the year of the famous "Ramskins" trade.. they took Cotton Speyrer, WR in the draft.

allen was so p***** he refused to even speak to speyrer, much less play him.. they ended up trading him to baltimore, i believe because allen never forgot or forgave..

[shally]

Difference with Allen was he could coach the socks of most players. If I knew Zorn could do what Allen did then I would be happy.


players loved Allen.. they would walk through fire for him.. not like todays players

[nicefellow31]

the only time allen kept picks was when he couldnt get another team to take them in exchange for a player..

he was famously known for angrily stomping out of the room when he couldnt get anyone to take a #2 pick during the year of the famous "Ramskins" trade.. they took Cotton Speyrer, WR in the draft.

allen was so p***** he refused to even speak to speyrer, much less play him.. they ended up trading him to baltimore, i believe because allen never forgot or forgave..

I believe you are right Shally. I think they traded him for Roy Jefferson which turned out to be a great trade for the Skins.

[shally]

I believe you are right Shally. I think they traded him for Roy Jefferson which turned out to be a great trade for the Skins.

without question.. cant quite remember how we got Roy, but i believe he was a steeler..
Cotton never did much of anything in the NFL

[nicefellow31]

without question.. cant quite remember how we got Roy, but i believe he was a steeler..
Cotton never did much of anything in the NFL

Hey look at this link Shally. You and I had this discussion about 2.5 yrs ago! LOL! I did a google search on Speyer and Jefferson and this was the first result that came up. I think we both need some of that ginko stuff to help with our memory. Ha Ha!

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?p=780973

[shally]

Hey look at this link Shally. You and I had this discussion about 2.5 yrs ago! LOL! I did a google search on Speyer and Jefferson and this was the first result that came up. I think we both need some of that ginko stuff to help with our memory. Ha Ha!

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showthread.php?p=780973

how about that ?? i am just about as senile now, as i was then..