NFC East Draft Picks: 12 + 9 + 9 vs. 4[Merged]

[Skins7ny]

Apart from our 3 division rivals ALREADY being more talented and more deep than us, they also have been stockpiling draft picks for this year, whereas we have the fewest in the league. Thus, our hated rivals will add to their already superior rosters with young, cap-friendly talent, and we will have to live with the memories of 55, 66 and 78 in Redskins unis. The differences will probably increase once the compensatory picks are announced.

But I am glad to hear that Danny and Vinny have learned their lessons about how to build the roster.

http://www.gbnreport.com/

Full draft order announced… The NFL announced the full seven-round selection order for the 2009 draft - minus compensatory picks which are still to be announced - late last week. The comp picks are expected to be revealed later this month. With the comp picks still to come, Philadelphia leads the way with 12 selections so far at the 2009 draft. Indeed, the Eagles are currently the only team with ten or more picks. Teams with 9 picks to date include Dallas, Denver, Green Bay, Miami and the Giants. In contrast, New Orleans and Washington, each with only four picks so far this year, have the fewest picks of any team, while Carolina and Cleveland both have 5 picks. Here is the full break-down of picks by team with the compensatory picks still to be announced.

[BurgundyNGold]

It sounds like par for the course. 10 years of Snyderball still hasn't proven his recipe can cook up anything more than a lot of dead cap space and a sub .500 record.

[akhhorus]

It sounds like par for the course. 10 years of Snyderball still hasn't proven his recipe can cook up anything more than a lot of dead cap space and a sub .500 record.

We need more fullbacks, so we should trade back and pick up some more picks lol ;)

[wide_awake]

Nothing out of the ordinary. Snyder learns from his mistakes after all.

[Skins7ny]

It sounds like par for the course. 10 years of Snyderball still hasn't proven his recipe can cook up anything more than a lot of dead cap space and a sub .500 record.
His recipe is giving me salmonella poisoning.
We need more fullbacks, so we should trade back and pick up some more picks lol ;)
We actually do need a backup FB. Sellers is getting up there in years, and it would be nice if we could start grooming someobody as his replacement who could also serve as his backup until he retires/leaves. But of course, our FO does not know the meaning of the words "groom" or "future". Or "depth".

[BurgundyNGold]

We need more fullbacks, so we should trade back and pick up some more picks lol ;)
That's all we need. More FBs. Their very versatile, lol. Plus, they're great for special teams, lmao.

[akhhorus]

That's all we need. More FBs. Their very versatile, lol. Plus, they're great for special teams, lmao.

Next time you bring up Manny White, I have a new snark btw lol. I've been saving it for awhile.

[shally]

tight ends, the new FB....

[Gravy]

tight ends, the new FB....

...how about a new owner

[Tha Boss Hogg]

...how about a new owner

new everything...

[jaylen]

I don't want more picks because Vinny has shown no ability to be able to successful pick contributors with a bunch of picks.

if we get a starter or a potential star at 13, get a starter or potential star in rd 3 and find a Chris Horton type steal late it'll have been a good haul.

I can't stomach the idea of drafting a whole bunch of nothing.

Matter of fact we should just take the best player on the board at 13 regardless of position. To eliminate the potential for screwing that up.

But I fear Vinny will get cute once again and pass on talented players to drop back and get a couple 2nd rd picks to plug holes yet they won't and we'll watch a division rival take a Percy Harvin who will drive us nuts next season just to add to the angst.

just overpay for needs on the open market and draft talent no matter the position until we get a real credible front office.

[Keino]

Draft Picks are only as good as the guy picking them. Last year we had 10 picks and only one of them was a contributor.


Sorry, but as long as Vinny Cerrato is the guy in charge, it doesn't matter if we have 2 picks or 20. I just cannot get upset at the lack of 2nd rounder when it will lead to Malcolm Kelly or Fred Davis type selections. I cannot get upset when the team doesn't have 3rd rounders to be used on the likes of Justin Tryon.

[BurgundyNGold]

Draft Picks are only as good as the guy picking them. Last year we had 10 picks and only one of them was a contributor.

Sorry, but as long as Vinny Cerrato is the guy in charge, it doesn't matter if we have 2 picks or 20. I just cannot get upset at the lack of 2nd rounder when it will lead to Malcolm Kelly or Fred Davis type selections. I cannot get upset when the team doesn't have 3rd rounders to be used on the likes of Justin Tryon.
Hear, hear! This is the wisest thing I've ever read.

[akhhorus]

Draft Picks are only as good as the guy picking them. Last year we had 10 picks and only one of them was a contributor.


Sorry, but as long as Vinny Cerrato is the guy in charge, it doesn't matter if we have 2 picks or 20. I just cannot get upset at the lack of 2nd rounder when it will lead to Malcolm Kelly or Fred Davis type selections. I cannot get upset when the team doesn't have 3rd rounders to be used on the likes of Justin Tryon.

+1

[Battle Cat]

Draft Picks are only as good as the guy picking them. Last year we had 10 picks and only one of them was a contributor.


Sorry, but as long as Vinny Cerrato is the guy in charge, it doesn't matter if we have 2 picks or 20. I just cannot get upset at the lack of 2nd rounder when it will lead to Malcolm Kelly or Fred Davis type selections. I cannot get upset when the team doesn't have 3rd rounders to be used on the likes of Justin Tryon.
You forgot the huge impact of the great Devin Thomas. Who may beat out James Thrash this year. Maybe.

[dj_stouty]

+1

+1

[flave1969]

+1

+1

[shally]

+1

[silverspring]

Draft Picks are only as good as the guy picking them. Last year we had 10 picks and only one of them was a contributor.


Sorry, but as long as Vinny Cerrato is the guy in charge, it doesn't matter if we have 2 picks or 20. I just cannot get upset at the lack of 2nd rounder when it will lead to Malcolm Kelly or Fred Davis type selections. I cannot get upset when the team doesn't have 3rd rounders to be used on the likes of Justin Tryon.

I understand the sentiment , but You can't judge a draft after one year. Guys like Horton and Moore already seem worth it and guys like Thomas are known projects. Brennan has showed promise. The big question mark might be Tryon which I can't explain. I also think that the Davis story isn't over yet, a Cooley Davis tandem doesn't sound so bad. I am so sick of guys with bum knees, but technically we got great value for the Kelly pick.

Nonetheless, are you suggesting that trading away picks for free agents is any better with Vinny Cerrato in charge? Such as say 2 draft picks including a 2nd rounder and 9 million bucks for jason taylor?

At least we don't break the bank with the draft picks!

[Ibleedburgundy]

Draft Picks are only as good as the guy picking them. Last year we had 10 picks and only one of them was a contributor.


Sorry, but as long as Vinny Cerrato is the guy in charge, it doesn't matter if we have 2 picks or 20. I just cannot get upset at the lack of 2nd rounder when it will lead to Malcolm Kelly or Fred Davis type selections. I cannot get upset when the team doesn't have 3rd rounders to be used on the likes of Justin Tryon.

What's the alternative? Vinnie in free agency? Can't argue that Vinnie doesn't suck, I think we're all on the fire Vinnie petition, but I would still rather have 20 picks. At least then we have a chance of getting 2 decent young players.

[akhhorus]

I understand the sentiment , but You can't judge a draft after one year. Guys like Horton and Moore already seem worth it and guys like Thomas are known projects. Brennan has showed promise. The big question mark might be Tryon which I can't explain. I also think that the Davis story isn't over yet, a Cooley Davis tandem doesn't sound so bad. I am so sick of guys with bum knees, but technically we got great value for the Kelly pick.

Huh? Malcolm Kelly's had 3 knee surgeries already, yet we got "good value" for that pick?

We've already cut one of those draft picks, one of them can't stay healthy, two of them show promise but can't understand the playbook, Brennan showed promise...against 4th stringers, Tyron shouldn't in the NFL, Rinehart can't get on the field-despite Kendell being a UFA, Horton is a good player and Moore & Rob Jackson look like a STers.

Nonetheless, are you suggesting that trading away picks for free agents is any better with Vinny Cerrato in charge? Such as say 2 draft picks including a 2nd rounder and 9 million bucks for jason taylor?

At least we don't break the bank with the draft picks!

There is a certain irony that the skins do exactly what y'all and Skins7ny wanted them to do, and the draft was a disaster so far. Yet, y'all are back pushing this meme the following year.

[akhhorus]

What's the alternative? Vinnie in free agency? Can't argue that Vinnie doesn't suck, I think we're all on the fire Vinnie petition, but I would still rather have 20 picks. At least then we have a chance of getting 2 decent young players.

The alternative is going out and getting good talent, regardless of the means. As long as Vinny is the so called GM, it doesn't matter if the skins have 5 first round picks each year.

[dj_stouty]

The alternative is going out and getting good talent, regardless of the means.

And as Redskins fans; that means we are screwwwwwwed!

[RedskinsDave]

Draft Picks are only as good as the guy picking them. Last year we had 10 picks and only one of them was a contributor.


Sorry, but as long as Vinny Cerrato is the guy in charge, it doesn't matter if we have 2 picks or 20. I just cannot get upset at the lack of 2nd rounder when it will lead to Malcolm Kelly or Fred Davis type selections. I cannot get upset when the team doesn't have 3rd rounders to be used on the likes of Justin Tryon.

My favorite part is when all the picks make the team and they brag about it as if it wasn't predetermined.

[Skins7ny]

What's the alternative? Vinnie in free agency? Can't argue that Vinnie doesn't suck, I think we're all on the fire Vinnie petition, but I would still rather have 20 picks. At least then we have a chance of getting 2 decent young players.
Even a bug-eyed squirrel finds a few acorns now and again.
....There is a certain irony that the skins do exactly what y'all and Skins7ny wanted them to do, and the draft was a disaster so far. Yet, y'all are back pushing this meme the following year.
It is also funny that you are criticizing drafting Kelly over his knee surgeries when you fell all over yourself like a little girl at a Jonas Brothers concert to defend the Rocky McIntosh trade. But I digress...

I want the Skins to build through the draft. That does NOT equal them using the picks every 5th year and expecting it to suffice while they piss away their draft choices the other 4 years!! That is NOT what I want done. I want us to keep all 7 picks every year, trade to acquire more picks when good opportunities to do so present themselves, and not to treat the picks as if they had cooties. We can add a free agent or three every year to fill in holes in the roster, and make trades very judiciously for veterans.

One 10-player draft every 8 years (2000, 2008) is not what I am advocating.

Of course, I also am advocating having the owner stay the hell out of personnel and hiring a real GM to make these decisions. But I am under no delusion that it will ever happen.

The alternative is going out and getting good talent, regardless of the means. As long as Vinny is the so called GM, it doesn't matter if the skins have 5 first round picks each year.

No, that is not the alternative. You cannot in the modern NFL rely on trades and free agent signings to build the roster. You must use the draft and use it well. Which we agree is not going to happen so long as Danny and Vinny are calling the shots on draft day.

[akhhorus]

It is also funny that you are criticizing drafting Kelly over his knee surgeries when you fell all over yourself like a little girl at a Jonas Brothers concert to defend the Rocky McIntosh trade. But I digress...


Rocky had knee problems in college, but appeared to be healthy. Kelly did not. Rocky also didn't need to have 3 surgeries in his first 12 months in DC. Also Rocky has actually played more than a few quarters here and there. You should digress because you have no point.

I want the Skins to build through the draft. That does NOT equal them using the picks every 5th year and expecting it to suffice while they piss away their draft choices the other 4 years!! That is NOT what I want done. I want us to keep all 7 picks every year, trade to acquire more picks when good opportunities to do so present themselves, and not to treat the picks as if they had cooties. We can add a free agent or three every year to fill in holes in the roster, and make trades very judiciously for veterans.

I want the skins to get talent: draft, FA, trade, time machine..whatever. They shouldn't pass on prime talent just to stand on some misguided principle. And Keino is right: a draft pick is only as good as the person making it.

One 10-player draft every 8 years (2000, 2008) is not what I am advocating.


No one said you were, but you shouldn't be whining when they do exactly what you want them to.

No, that is not the alternative. You cannot in the modern NFL rely on trades and free agent signings to build the roster. You must use the draft and use it well. Which we agree is not going to happen so long as Danny and Vinny are calling the shots on draft day.

No, you must get talent. For every draft-first example you can hold out as an example, I can hold out an example of a team that used trades/free agents to build.

[Keino]

What's the alternative? Vinnie in free agency? Can't argue that Vinnie doesn't suck, I think we're all on the fire Vinnie petition, but I would still rather have 20 picks. At least then we have a chance of getting 2 decent young players.


The alternative is to entrust the draft, and personnel acquisition in general to someone with:

A. A Plan for success;
B. Talent evaluation ability; and
C. Patience to execute the plan.

We have none of these things.

[silverspring]

Huh? Malcolm Kelly's had 3 knee surgeries already, yet we got "good value" for that pick?

According to every draft chart from last year we did get very good value for that pick, that can't be argued.


We've already cut one of those draft picks, one of them can't stay healthy, two of them show promise but can't understand the playbook, Brennan showed promise...against 4th stringers, Tyron shouldn't in the NFL, Rinehart can't get on the field-despite Kendell being a UFA, Horton is a good player and Moore & Rob Jackson look like a STers.

What team drafts 10 guys and keeps them all? We needed a punter, brooks had all the numbers and good reviews it wasn't a bad pick, he just couldn't do it at the next level. It isn't like we took him in the 1st round or something.

Brennan has showed a lot of promise for a 6th round pick up. He has excelled every time he has been on the field, what more can you ask for?

Rinehart was also basically unanimously agreed to be a good prospect and a good pick. He wasn't suppose to start his first year.

i totally agree that Tryon was a mistake. But other than this gaffe, I can't argue with BPA which is basically how we drafted.
I just hope we have learned the following lessons: Stop drafting guys with knee problems (kelly and rocky) and no midgets.

There is a certain irony that the skins do exactly what y'all and Skins7ny wanted them to do, and the draft was a disaster so far. Yet, y'all are back pushing this meme the following year.

So you are going to write off the draft after one year of using it fully?
Of all people you should know better than to judge a draft based on one year.
If we are basing this off of our track record, then I hope you are looking at the decade of failed free agent pick ups. Certainly the jason taylor trade was worse than our draft blunders. The bad picks only cost us that, a pick, free agents like taylor cost us both picks and cap space.

[Keino]

I understand the sentiment , but You can't judge a draft after one year. Guys like Horton and Moore already seem worth it and guys like Thomas are known projects. Brennan has showed promise. The big question mark might be Tryon which I can't explain. I also think that the Davis story isn't over yet, a Cooley Davis tandem doesn't sound so bad. I am so sick of guys with bum knees, but technically we got great value for the Kelly pick.

Nonetheless, are you suggesting that trading away picks for free agents is any better with Vinny Cerrato in charge? Such as say 2 draft picks including a 2nd rounder and 9 million bucks for jason taylor?

At least we don't break the bank with the draft picks!

I don't think you understand the sentiment at all. Only 1 pick from last year's 10 can be considered a success at this point. 10% Success rate, when 5 of those picks were in the first 3 rounds?

Cooley-Davis tandem may work, but somehow, I am doubting it. I understand that it should really be a 3-4 season evaluation period of a draft, but again, at least half of our draftees were expected to be immediate contributors and only one (The last taken BTW) was. That is an indication of a problem in the talent evaluation department. Hell one of the draftees isn't even on the team anymore.

[akhhorus]

According to every draft chart from last year we did get very good value for that pick, that can't be argued.


You didn't it was retrospective, you said "technically speaking." A player who can't play and has 3 knee surgeries isn't good value.

What team drafts 10 guys and keeps them all? We needed a punter, brooks had all the numbers and good reviews it wasn't a bad pick, he just couldn't do it at the next level. It isn't like we took him in the 1st round or something.


We cut a Vet to keep that draft pick for a few weeks. That alone undermines it.

Brennan has showed a lot of promise for a 6th round pick up. He has excelled every time he has been on the field, what more can you ask for?


Excelling against Wal Mart greeters isn't showing promise.

Rinehart was also basically unanimously agreed to be a good prospect and a good pick. He wasn't suppose to start his first year.

And yet, they decide to bring back Dockery rather than even giving Rinehart a chance at replacing Kendell.

i totally agree that Tryon was a mistake. But other than this gaffe, I can't argue with BPA which is basically how we drafted.
I just hope we have learned the following lessons: Stop drafting guys with knee problems (kelly and rocky) and no midgets.

Right, because Snyderatto learns lessons lol

So you are going to write off the draft after one year of using it fully?
Of all people you should know better than to judge a draft based on one year.

Did I say that? I said y'all got what y'all want, it fails miserably, and y'all are back here pushing the same "we need all the draft picks we can get" meme.

If we are basing this off of our track record, then I hope you are looking at the decade of failed free agent pick ups. Certainly the jason taylor trade was worse than our draft blunders. The bad picks only cost us that, a pick, free agents like taylor cost us both picks and cap space.

A bad move is a bad move, regardless of how it went down. Taylor ended up being a bad move because the skins decided to be selectively tough on him(probably to just justify cutting him anyways).

[akhhorus]

I don't think you understand the sentiment at all. Only 1 pick from last year's 10 can be considered a success at this point. 10% Success rate, when 5 of those picks were in the first 3 rounds?

Cooley-Davis tandem may work, but somehow, I am doubting it. I understand that it should really be a 3-4 season evaluation period of a draft, but again, at least half of our draftees were expected to be immediate contributors and only one (The last taken BTW) was. That is an indication of a problem in the talent evaluation department. Hell one of the draftees isn't even on the team anymore.

And if the Cooley/Davis tandem works out, it means that there's less production coming from Thomas/Kelly.

[shally]

I don't think you understand the sentiment at all. Only 1 pick from last year's 10 can be considered a success at this point. 10% Success rate, when 5 of those picks were in the first 3 rounds?

Cooley-Davis tandem may work, but somehow, I am doubting it. I understand that it should really be a 3-4 season evaluation period of a draft, but again, at least half of our draftees were expected to be immediate contributors and only one (The last taken BTW) was. That is an indication of a problem in the talent evaluation department. Hell one of the draftees isn't even on the team anymore.

also an indication of completely unrealistic expectations, coupled with crappy coaching and poor schemes that werent modified as oppponents
caught onto them.. the trifecta of woe

total systemic failure.. we were lucky we didnt finish 4-12, because that was the real performance level over the last half of the season

[silverspring]

I don't think you understand the sentiment at all. Only 1 pick from last year's 10 can be considered a success at this point. 10% Success rate, when 5 of those picks were in the first 3 rounds?

Cooley-Davis tandem may work, but somehow, I am doubting it. I understand that it should really be a 3-4 season evaluation period of a draft, but again, at least half of our draftees were expected to be immediate contributors and only one (The last taken BTW) was. That is an indication of a problem in the talent evaluation department. Hell one of the draftees isn't even on the team anymore.

Keino you said it yourself, it takes multiple seasons to evaluate the draft so follow your own advice. I am disappointed just as you are, but realistically I understand the draft is a process and you need patience with it. Building a team through the draft takes commitment and years before it will start paying dividends. I would like to see us commit to this philosophy for more than one season before judging it. We have already seen what committing to free agency has gotten us...mediocrity.

Also if our talent evaluation is bad for the draft it has proven to be no worse for free agents. So why not go the cheaper route?

[shally]

i just want to say this much.. given the large number of picks the eagles have had over the years, they have done very little with them.. take away TO and they dont even have one SB appearance

take away westbrook and they dont have a single division championship

nobody has done less, with more picks

[akhhorus]

i just want to say this much.. given the large number of picks the eagles have had over the years, they have done very little with them.. take away TO and they dont even have one SB appearance

take away westbrook and they dont have a single division championship

nobody has done less, with more picks

Or look at the steelers, from the drafts 2006-2008, they made 25 picks and I believe only 9-11 are still on the roster. Thats not very good. They win because they can find players anywhere.

[silverspring]

You didn't it was retrospective, you said "technically speaking." A player who can't play and has 3 knee surgeries isn't good value.

Well I am glad we are on the same page now. Technically he was considered very good value and not only that but just what we needed a big target with good hands.



We cut a Vet to keep that draft pick for a few weeks. That alone undermines it.

If I recall you never thought much of torrence, so why are you arguing against it now? I can't fault the pick. We needed a punter, he was considered a good punter, what is the problem?



Excelling against Wal Mart greeters isn't showing promise.

You love to put down brennan, i don't know if he will become anything but I am not going to write him off just because he hasn't gotten a chance to play against starters yet.



And yet, they decide to bring back Dockery rather than even giving Rinehart a chance at replacing Kendell.

So what? The guy is young still and bugel hates anyone but vets. If I recall you gave the Rinehart pick an A grade so I guess your talent evaluation isn't any better.



Right, because Snyderatto learns lessons lol

We can only dream



Did I say that? I said y'all got what y'all want, it fails miserably, and y'all are back here pushing the same "we need all the draft picks we can get" meme.

If you think building through the draft means committing to it for one season then we are on very different planes. You need 3 seasons before you can even grade a draft properly, nothing failed. It cost us very little and we have large potential.



A bad move is a bad move, regardless of how it went down. Taylor ended up being a bad move because the skins decided to be selectively tough on him(probably to just justify cutting him anyways).

your man-love for taylor is beyond comprehension. They didn't ask him to restructure or take a cut or anything, just to commit to the team by showing up to 75% of OTAs. The big question mark for Taylor is whether he wants to be a hollywood actor or a football player. By refusing to come to otas i think it proves his lack of commitment to the team. Last year he showed up out of shape, i think for 9 million bucks it is a fair thing to ask. It was a high risk move, lots of money and picks for an old player that has shown that he doesn't care anymore. We rolled the dice and lost big on the gamble, it was a stupid move, accept it.

[akhhorus]

Well I am glad we are on the same page now. Technically he was considered very good value and not only that but just what we needed a big target with good hands.

Bad attempt at spin. Anytime a player plays maybe 2-3 quarters in one season, it wasn't good value. Technically or morally speaking lol.

If I recall you never thought much of torrence, so why are you arguing against it now? I can't fault the pick. We needed a punter, he was considered a good punter, what is the problem?


What does Leigh Torrance have to do with anything? We cut Frost to keep Brooks, despite Brooks not outplaying him.

You love to put down brennan, i don't know if he will become anything but I am not going to write him off just because he hasn't gotten a chance to play against starters yet.


I don't love to do anything involving Colt Brennan. I just think he's developed a cult following for no apparent reason.

So what? The guy is young still and bugel hates anyone but vets. If I recall you gave the Rinehart pick an A grade so I guess your talent evaluation isn't any better.


Wtf? I point out that Rinehart can't get on the field, and you try to throw this back in my face? I think Rinehart should be on the field regardless of how good/ready he is. Thanks for trying to dodge the issue btw.

If this is your best retort silverspring, its pathetic.

If you think building through the draft means committing to it for one season then we are on very different planes. You need 3 seasons before you can even grade a draft properly, nothing failed. It cost us very little and we have large potential.


Based on what? That Vinny will get Zorn to eventually actually play them in 3 years? Despite injuries and ineffective play in front of many of the 2008 draft class, only 1 of them could get on the field with any regularity. That says a lot.

your man-love for taylor is beyond comprehension. They didn't ask him to restructure or take a cut or anything, just to commit to the team by showing up to 75% of OTAs.

Pointing out that the skins are selectively tough on working out outside of Ashburn isn't man love for anyone. They've put up with Moss(and the rest of the UM players) working out in Miami all offseason and Springs' sense of whimsy for years, and they suddenly make a fist? Thats suspicious.

The big question mark for Taylor is whether he wants to be a hollywood actor or a football player. By refusing to come to otas i think it proves his lack of commitment to the team. Last year he showed up out of shape, i think for 9 million bucks it is a fair thing to ask. It was a high risk move, lots of money and picks for an old player that has shown that he doesn't care anymore. We rolled the dice and lost big on the gamble, it was a stupid move, accept it.

It was a bad move because we only gave it one year. When we get a big DT to tie up blockers, we compounded any mistakes we made by dumping Taylor. You can believe the company line coming from Snyder all you want, but that speaks to your gullibility.

[shally]

Or look at the steelers, from the drafts 2006-2008, they made 25 picks and I believe only 9-11 are still on the roster. Thats not very good. They win because they can find players anywhere.


but at least the steelers have won 2 superbowls.. what have the eagles won for all the praise that is heaped upon them?

plus, the eagles wounds are self inflicted. they routinely lose players whom they choose not to re sign.. this year they will lose BOTH their starting tackles. tell me how much mcnabb is going to be running for his life in 2009 ?

[jaylen]

[QUOTE=silverspring;1203424] it takes multiple seasons to evaluate the draft so follow your own advice. QUOTE]

I can agree with this but early indictations aren't good if Kelly or THomas can have a Steve Breaston like resurgence then I'll be satisfied. But Breaston wasn't part of the offensive package while the Skins tried to get Thomas involved.

I've not seen flashes from any of the other rookies except Davis and we already have a pro bowl player at his position. So it may turn around but it doesn't look good to me yet.

Of course Horton was legit but that seems alot like Luck to me right now that we found him.

[shally]

[QUOTE=silverspring;1203424] it takes multiple seasons to evaluate the draft so follow your own advice. QUOTE]

I can agree with this but early indictations aren't good if Kelly or THomas can have a Steve Breaston like resurgence then I'll be satisfied. But Breaston wasn't part of the offensive package while the Skins tried to get Thomas involved.

I've not seen flashes from any of the other rookies except Davis and we already have a pro bowl player at his position. So it may turn around but it doesn't look good to me yet.

Of course Horton was legit but that seems alot like Luck to me right now that we found him.


not luck.. he was referred to us by a former redskin coach who coached him at UCLA.. we need more insider info like that

actually, the luck was that vinny even listened to walker

[akhhorus]

but at least the steelers have won 2 superbowls.. what have the eagles won for all the praise that is heaped upon them?

plus, the eagles wounds are self inflicted. they routinely lose players whom they choose not to re sign.. this year they will lose BOTH their starting tackles. tell me how much mcnabb is going to be running for his life in 2009 ?

Touche lol. You're 100% right, and ironically, the only time they made the super bowl was when they shelled out for Jevon Kearse and TO lol.

[shally]

Touche lol. You're 100% right, and ironically, the only time they made the super bowl was when they shelled out for Jevon Kearse and TO lol.

whoa !!! TODAY I AM a MAN...lol

jk, Bro...

seriously, how dumb is it for the eagles to do what they are doing this offseason ? no telling whether the Andrews Sisters return from surgery last year..

and you are correct that it was TO and Kearse who got them over the hump that one year.. of course when you draft players like ryan moats, you dont get very far

[Gravy]

whoa !!! TODAY I AM a MAN...lol

jk, Bro...

seriously, how dumb is it for the eagles to do what they are doing this offseason ? no telling whether the Andrews Sisters return from surgery last year..

and you are correct that it was TO and Kearse who got them over the hump that one year.. of course when you draft players like ryan moats, you dont get very far

I have 3 Taylor Jacobs rookie cards...what are they worth:rolleyes:

[Skins-fo-life]

Good points about the Eagles. Some of their draft picks turned out real well for them. To name a few; Ryan Moats, Reno Mahe, Billy McMullen, Jerome McDougle, JR Reed, Winston Justice, Jeremy Bloom, and god knows how many more. Its nice to all have all those picks but it truly means nothing if most of them can't remain with the team.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Or look at the steelers, from the drafts 2006-2008, they made 25 picks and I believe only 9-11 are still on the roster. Thats not very good. They win because they can find players anywhere.

They find players in different places, but they also have a good system in place, especially on defense. We change our system all the time, some times within the same season as Gregg Williams often did.

[silverspring]

Bad attempt at spin. Anytime a player plays maybe 2-3 quarters in one season, it wasn't good value. Technically or morally speaking lol.

Akh your suppose to be mr. draft, you have your own website evaluating drafts and players. let's look at what you said at the time.
http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=487


Overall comment: I’m still not a huge Kelly fan, and I think there are still red flags about him. However, the value he represented at 51 was amazing.
Amazing? Yet now you say it wasn't good value technically or morally?

Lets look at some of your other comments
on thomas:

Overall comment: He was a steal at 21, but we dropped back and still got him. If he’s still a developing player learning the game, his physical gifts should be enough for 35-40 catches until he puts it together.



Since we are talking about chad rinehart

Overall comment: Can’t argue with this pick at all. Rinehart is what you look for in a OLman, he has all the intangibles along with a great body for a Hog.
Grade: A-



The only comment you still seem to have the same opinion on is brooks:

Overall comment: He’ll be a steal or nothing, either he’s going to start on day 1 or he’ll be cut. And he’ll have to be solid to good to start on Day 1.
Grade: C

Dead on...

You give our already best pick horton almost your worst grade at C+. Overall you give the draft a good review. Clearly at the time you didn't argue that these were bad picks or a bad draft. Hindight is 20-20 though isn't it?

But you indicate in some of your comments that these guys need to develop. So why not let them develop and give them a chance before you flip flop.




What does Leigh Torrance have to do with anything? We cut Frost to keep Brooks, despite Brooks not outplaying him.

I wasn't sure who you were talking about, are you suggesting you would rather have frost punting for us? Because I sure as hell don't.



I don't love to do anything involving Colt Brennan. I just think he's developed a cult following for no apparent reason.



Wtf? I point out that Rinehart can't get on the field, and you try to throw this back in my face? I think Rinehart should be on the field regardless of how good/ready he is. Thanks for trying to dodge the issue btw.

If this is your best retort silverspring, its pathetic.

Well then we agree, i don't think rinehart is necessarily a bust, i think he needs to develop but he also needs playing time. He needs to get on the field. So what is the problem?

Based on what? That Vinny will get Zorn to eventually actually play them in 3 years? Despite injuries and ineffective play in front of many of the 2008 draft class, only 1 of them could get on the field with any regularity. That says a lot.

Based on history. Based on many of the perennially successful teams in the league. Committing to the draft is a smart way to build a team. Free agency is a great way to supplement your team but building it through free agency has only proved to yield one year wonders, cap disasters or mediocracy.




Pointing out that the skins are selectively tough on working out outside of Ashburn isn't man love for anyone. They've put up with Moss(and the rest of the UM players) working out in Miami all offseason and Springs' sense of whimsy for years, and they suddenly make a fist? Thats suspicious.

They seem to be getting fairly consistent. Portis had a workout clause in his last contract for last year, that was why he showed up in shape. Other big free agents like hall and haynesworth got the clause in their contract too. Why shouldn't taylor? I can't comprehend how you are arguing that we should keep him even though he refuses to come to OTAs. 8.5 Million isn't worth showing up for training camp?


It was a bad move because we only gave it one year. When we get a big DT to tie up blockers, we compounded any mistakes we made by dumping Taylor. You can believe the company line coming from Snyder all you want, but that speaks to your gullibility.


Man-love at it's finest. Someone on here recently posted that he cost us like 20,000+ a snap and that didn't even account for the draft picks. He cost close to 3 million a sack. He was a waste, get over it.

[shally]

Good points about the Eagles. Some of their draft picks turned out real well for them. To name a few; Ryan Moats, Reno Mahe, Billy McMullen, Jerome McDougle, JR Reed, Winston Justice, Jeremy Bloom, and god knows how many more. Its nice to all have all those picks but it truly means nothing if most of them can't remain with the team.

fred Ex, anyone ?

[lorimike]

We'll have 3 after the league takes our 1st rounder for tampering

[shally]

They find players in different places, but they also have a good system in place, especially on defense. We change our system all the time, some times within the same season as Gregg Williams often did.

that's because they have had one of the best all time DC's ever.. someone who really didnt want to move on
... and above all, someone who understands how important pressure is to any defense-- unlike the lunkhead we have

[shally]

We'll have 3 after the league takes our 1st rounder for tampering

wont happen... that might be the only thing we are good at-- tampering

[akhhorus]

Akh your suppose to be mr. draft, you have your own website evaluating drafts and players. let's look at what you said at the time.
http://www.hailredskins.com/?p=487


Amazing? Yet now you say it wasn't good value technically or morally?


If I had known that Kelly had a knee made of glass and wouldn't play a full game his rookie year, I would have tempered my comments and grade. I'll be sure to hold you to the standards you now want to try and hold me to.

Lets look at some of your other comments
on thomas:


This has nothing to do with the point at hand. How exactly does this contradict my criticism of how the draft class ended up at the end of their rookie year? And if I had known that Thomas would basically miss the preseason and couldn't get on the field as anything more than a 3rd WR, I would have changed my comments.

Since we are talking about chad rinehart



See above.

The only comment you still seem to have the same opinion on is brooks:


Dead on...


See above

You give our already best pick horton almost your worst grade at C+. Overall you give the draft a good review. Clearly at the time you didn't argue that these were bad picks or a bad draft. Hindight is 20-20 though isn't it?


So, I criticize the picks retrospectively today, and your retort is to dig up what I said a few days after they were drafted? You don't see the inherent problems with that moronic line of logic?

But you indicate in some of your comments that these guys need to develop. So why not let them develop and give them a chance before you flip flop.


I didn't flip flop, and I stand by all my comments. As for time: they need to play. The Skins don't seem too worried about getting them any playing time.

I wasn't sure who you were talking about, are you suggesting you would rather have frost punting for us? Because I sure as hell don't.

How well did Brooks do again?

Well then we agree, i don't think rinehart is necessarily a bust, i think he needs to develop but he also needs playing time. He needs to get on the field. So what is the problem?


I've said what the problem is, your reading skills are lacking..again.

Based on history. Based on many of the perennially successful teams in the league. Committing to the draft is a smart way to build a team. Free agency is a great way to supplement your team but building it through free agency has only proved to yield one year wonders, cap disasters or mediocracy.


More non-sequitur theater from you.

They seem to be getting fairly consistent. Portis had a workout clause in his last contract for last year, that was why he showed up in shape. Other big free agents like hall and haynesworth got the clause in their contract too. Why shouldn't taylor? I can't comprehend how you are arguing that we should keep him even though he refuses to come to OTAs. 8.5 Million isn't worth showing up for training camp?


And the Skins are tolerating Moss and Thomas working out in Miami together and not in Ashburn this offseason?

Make up your mind: are you a mindless apologist or just a mindless critic of Snyder?

Man-love at it's finest. Someone on here recently posted that he cost us like 20,000+ a snap and that didn't even account for the draft picks. He cost close to 3 million a sack. He was a waste, get over it.

What does this have to do with anything I wrote?

[lorimike]

wont happen... that might be the only thing we are good at-- tampering
<<<

I haven't heard much about it since it was initially reported last week. I hope you are right. Losing a high draft pick would really hurt us.

[akhhorus]

They find players in different places, but they also have a good system in place, especially on defense. We change our system all the time, some times within the same season as Gregg Williams often did.

Thats exactly it frankly. The skins' management is like methhead: consistent for 15 minutes.

[silverspring]

If I had known that Kelly had a knee made of glass and wouldn't play a full game his rookie year, I would have tempered my comments and grade. I'll be sure to hold you to the standards you now what to try and hold me to.



This has nothing to do with the point at hand. How exactly does this contradict my criticism of how the draft class ended up at the end of their rookie year? And if I had known that Thomas would basically miss the preseason and couldn't get on the field as anything more than a 3rd WR, I would have changed my comments.



So, I criticize the picks retrospectively today, and your retort is to dig up what I said a few days after they were drafted? You don't see the inherent problems with that moronic line of logic?


I didn't flip flop, and I stand by all my comments. As for time: they need to play. The Skins don't seem too worried about getting them any playing time.

My point is that at the time it was almost unanimously agreed that almost all of our draft picks were high value picks. We all have hindsight now including the front office and clearly we would all like to have some of those picks back. However, I am not going to write off the draft as a tool for building just because we committed to it for one offseason we and didn't get immediate results.


How well did Brooks do again?


No worse then frost


I've said what the problem is, your reading skills are lacking..again.



More non-sequitur theater from you.

insults like usual



And the Skins are tolerating Moss and Thomas working out in Miami together and not in Ashburn this offseason?

Moss and Thomas? Moss has at least produced something for this team and thomas is a rookie making nothing compared to taylor. Trying to insure that taylor is in shape, can only be seen as a smart move protecting our investment. There is nothign negative about it.

Make up your mind: are you a mindless apologist or just a mindless critic of Snyder?

I am neither. I think this front office has failed in a lot of ways but I am not going to criticize them for taking smart steps. Committing to the draft last year was good even though it hasn't yielded massive success as of yet. I in fact like a lot of things about snyder, his commitment to this team is clear and i think he is slowly very slowly getting better. I don't approve of vinny, but I do approve that we finally have a front office structure where there is an actual gm where clear fault can be laid. It frustrates me when we then throw draft picks away for old has beens like jason taylor.

And my not allowed to support them in some ways and criticize them in others? You are the one that constantly criticize this front office and then at the same time constantly lobby to do things exactly how they do, such as throwing money and picks at old free agents like Jason Taylor, make up your mind.


What does this have to do with anything I wrote?

Because Taylor has done absolutely nothing for this team, i have no idea why you are so dedicated to defending him.

[Keino]

Keino you said it yourself, it takes multiple seasons to evaluate the draft so follow your own advice. I am disappointed just as you are, but realistically I understand the draft is a process and you need patience with it. Building a team through the draft takes commitment and years before it will start paying dividends. I would like to see us commit to this philosophy for more than one season before judging it. We have already seen what committing to free agency has gotten us...mediocrity.

Also if our talent evaluation is bad for the draft it has proven to be no worse for free agents. So why not go the cheaper route?

You seem to be missing my point completely. While I understand that drafts are 3-4 eval period (and have said so), trends about a draft class show themselves during year 1. I have conditioned all of my analysis of last year's draft class as "As of right now" and "at this point". As of right now and at this point, 9 of our 10 picks look like trash and that is solely due to the person picking them. One of them isn't even on the team. I cannot state it any clearer than that. We took 2 WRS, each of whom was expected to contribute, but one had knee problems that everyone knew about but us. The other appears to be an undisciplined prima-donna who cannot remember where to line-up or how deep to run his routes. We have a TE who is a marginal blocker to team up with a pass catching TE already on the roster, but he too cannot seem to remember where and how to line-up. The we take an undersized CB from a mid-major 2 rounds too early and a Nasty O lineman who seems to be in our O line Coach's doghouse. That's our first 5 picks. It gets worse from there, that is until our final pick. Nobody picked until Horton appears to be able to be a starter in this league.

As long as Vinny is in charge of making the picks, as long as the commitment to college scouting is a mere afterthought and as long as we continue to act without a plan, it won't matter if we have 20 picks for the next 3 years straight.

[silverspring]

You seem to be missing my point completely. While I understand that drafts are 3-4 eval period (and have said so), trends about a draft class show themselves during year 1. I have conditioned all of my analysis of last year's draft class as "As of right now" and "at this point". As of right now and at this point, 9 of our 10 picks look like trash and that is solely due to the person picking them. One of them isn't even on the team. I cannot state it any clearer than that. We took 2 WRS, each of whom was expected to contribute, but one had knee problems that everyone knew about but us. The other appears to be an undisciplined prima-donna who cannot remember where to line-up or how deep to run his routes. We have a TE who is a marginal blocker to team up with a pass catching TE already on the roster, but he too cannot seem to remember where and how to line-up. The we take an undersized CB from a mid-major 2 rounds too early and a Nasty O lineman who seems to be in our O line Coach's doghouse. That's our first 5 picks. It gets worse from there, that is until our final pick. Nobody picked until Horton appears to be able to be a starter in this league.

As long as Vinny is in charge of making the picks, as long as the commitment to college scouting is a mere afterthought and as long as we continue to act without a plan, it won't matter if we have 20 picks for the next 3 years straight.


Oh I don't disagree that the draft class isn't giving us a lot of positive signs so far. I just don't think we should throw away the idea of building through the draft because we didn't receive great results from one draft, which is still a question mark at this time.

Vinny fails at free agency just as much as he has failed at the draft. In the case of free agency we already know that jason taylor was a total bust of a trade. At least our draftees are still question marks. The problem with free agency is if you blow it then you lose so much more, big dollars and picks. While if our draft picks stink all we lose are the picks.

We need to relearn how to build this team using youth and relearn how to coach youth which seems to be a big problem.

[akhhorus]

My point is that at the time it was almost unanimously agreed that almost all of our draft picks were high value picks. We all have hindsight now including the front office and clearly we would all like to have some of those picks back. However, I am not going to write off the draft as a tool for building just because we committed to it for one offseason we and didn't get immediate results.

And as I pointed out, you didn't say you were looking back.

No worse then frost


You're back in "apologist" mode. Brooks last half the season, Frost punted the for the rest of the season, yet you're trying to defend the move?

insults like usual


Pointing out when you're saying non-relevant things isn't an insult.

Moss and Thomas? Moss has at least produced something for this team and thomas is a rookie making nothing compared to taylor.

So what? If you're cost effective or produce, there's a different set of rules? Isn't that exactly what I'm saying about the skins' inconsistent accountability for workouts in the offseason?

Trying to insure that taylor is in shape, can only be seen as a smart move protecting our investment. There is nothign negative about it.

So, its okay to hold some players to one standard, but others get a pass? Jesus are you an apologist now.

I am neither. I think this front office has failed in a lot of ways but I am not going to criticize them for taking smart steps. Committing to the draft last year was good even though it hasn't yielded massive success as of yet. I in fact like a lot of things about snyder, his commitment to this team is clear and i think he is slowly very slowly getting better. I don't approve of vinny, but I do approve that we finally have a front office structure where there is an actual gm where clear fault can be laid. It frustrates me when we then throw draft picks away for old has beens like jason taylor.

Except that you'll bend over backward to apologize for Vinny if it means dumping on a trade or supporting a draft pick.

And my not allowed to support them in some ways and criticize them in others?

Because you clearly have an agenda. You're bending over backwards to defend the Durant Brooks pick now, thats more absurd than any defense I've done ever.

You are the one that constantly criticize this front office and then at the same time constantly lobby to do things exactly how they do, such as throwing money and picks at old free agents like Jason Taylor, make up your mind.


Saying that we should get talent, even if it means giving up draft picks isn't supporting Vinny's moves.

Because Taylor has done absolutely nothing for this team, i have no idea why you are so dedicated to defending him.

Pointing out that cutting him was a bad move because we got Haynesworth to maximize his performance is defending him how? And please respond with a relevant comment.

[Keino]

And I will re-state my initial post on this thread:

A draft pick is only as good as the guy making his pick. Until we get a Front Office with a plan for success, it doesn't matter how we build this team (Via draft, F/A or some hybrid combination), as long as the talent evaluators are who they are, we will be a middling franchise.

What you continue to ignore in your ramblings about Taylor, is that dumping him this year is what made it a bad trade. Getting multiple years out of him would have been worth the pick, expecially considering what we have done with 2nd rounders while Vinny has had input. We finally get him (Taylor) what he needs to be successful and we dump him based on his unwillingness to add language to his contract that requires him to participate in the off-season program? We signed him with the understanding that we would not alter his contract. Feel free to reconcile that. It's not like cutting him gets us the draft pick back....

[akhhorus]

And I will re-state my initial post on this thread:

A draft pick is only as good as the guy making his pick. Until we get a Front Office with a plan for success, it doesn't matter how we build this team (Via draft, F/A or some hybrid combination), as long as the talent evaluators are who they are, we will be a middling franchise.

What you continue to ignore in your ramblings about Taylor, is that dumping him this year is what made it a bad trade. Getting multiple years out of him would have been worth the pick, expecially considering what we have done with 2nd rounders while Vinny has had input. We finally get him (Taylor) what he needs to be successful and we dump him based on his unwillingness to add language to his contract that requires him to participate in the off-season program? We signed him with the understanding that we would not alter his contract. Feel free to reconcile that. It's not like cutting him gets us the draft pick back....

+1

For the record: I don't think anyone will be able to reconcile your points without anything except fluff.

[silverspring]

And I will re-state my initial post on this thread:

A draft pick is only as good as the guy making his pick. Until we get a Front Office with a plan for success, it doesn't matter how we build this team (Via draft, F/A or some hybrid combination), as long as the talent evaluators are who they are, we will be a middling franchise.

What you continue to ignore in your ramblings about Taylor, is that dumping him this year is what made it a bad trade. Getting multiple years out of him would have been worth the pick, expecially considering what we have done with 2nd rounders while Vinny has had input. We finally get him (Taylor) what he needs to be successful and we dump him based on his unwillingness to add language to his contract that requires him to participate in the off-season program? We signed him with the understanding that we would not alter his contract. Feel free to reconcile that. It's not like cutting him gets us the draft pick back....

Keino I agree, but the same goes for F/A. We are screwed either way if as you say the guy making the pick can't figure it out/, but I still think building through the draft while supplementing through free agency is the smarter path to be a successful franchise.

In terms of Taylor, you don't throw good money after bad. I think we could much better spend 8.5 million dollars by either spreading it out to fill multiple needs or at least on someone that isn't a one year stop gap that has produced zero as of now.

[Gravy]

"A draft pick is only as good as the guy making his pick. Until we get a Front Office with a plan for success, it doesn't matter how we build this team (Via draft, F/A or some hybrid combination), as long as the talent evaluators are who they are, we will be a middling franchise." -Keino

That sums it up...no need to go any further. Great Post...

[akhhorus]

Keino I agree, but the same goes for F/A. We are screwed either way if as you say the guy making the pick can't figure it out/, but I still think building through the draft while supplementing through free agency is the smarter path to be a successful franchise.

In terms of Taylor, you don't throw good money after bad. I think we could much better spend 8.5 million dollars by either spreading it out to fill multiple needs or at least on someone that isn't a one year stop gap that has produced zero as of now.

So, if we ended up cutting him and replacing him with Philip Daniels/Renaldo Wynn..and make no other substantial improvements with that free cash, you have to agree that the cutting him was extremely stupid.

[BurgundyNGold]

So, if we ended up cutting him and replacing him with Philip Daniels/Renaldo Wynn..and make no other substantial improvements with that free cash, you have to agree that the cutting him was extremely stupid.
I'll agree to that, lol.

[BurgundyNGold]

Keino I agree, but the same goes for F/A. We are screwed either way if as you say the guy making the pick can't figure it out/, but I still think building through the draft while supplementing through free agency is the smarter path to be a successful franchise.

In terms of Taylor, you don't throw good money after bad. I think we could much better spend 8.5 million dollars by either spreading it out to fill multiple needs or at least on someone that isn't a one year stop gap that has produced zero as of now.
The odds of gauging talent of a FA based on the results of their playing football in the NFL is a heckuvalot better than trying to gauge the potential of of a draft pick, given the 200 or so schools they could be coming from.

That said, and unrelated to draft picks, I prefer to spend that $8.5M on FA to fill RT, DE and LB rather than just let it sit there. Signing players like Daniels and Wynn do not address problems. If anything, it might hasten the firing of Zorn and Blache after this season.

[hail2skins]

The alternative is to entrust the draft, and personnel acquisition in general to someone with:

A. A Plan for success;
B. Talent evaluation ability; and
C. Patience to execute the plan.

We have none of these things.you could have stopped right there and gotten your point across. LMAO.

[silverspring]

So, if we ended up cutting him and replacing him with Philip Daniels/Renaldo Wynn..and make no other substantial improvements with that free cash, you have to agree that the cutting him was extremely stupid.

If we spend 8.5 million on a single season between daniels and wynn then yes, but that will never happen so this is a pointless topic. But i wouldn't use the word extreme either way.

[BurgundyNGold]

If we spend 8.5 million on a single season between daniels and wynn then yes, but that will never happen so this is a pointless topic. But i wouldn't use the word extreme either way.
They could sign Daniels and Wynn to vet minimum contracts and then not spend any of the balance on FA. That would be a waste.

[Keino]

Keino I agree, but the same goes for F/A. We are screwed either way if as you say the guy making the pick can't figure it out/, but I still think building through the draft while supplementing through free agency is the smarter path to be a successful franchise.

It doesn't take much talent evaluation skills to identify players who have already been successful in the NFL. I think building through the draft has merit, but not if the scouting dept sucks, and it clearly does.


In terms of Taylor, you don't throw good money after bad. I think we could much better spend 8.5 million dollars by either spreading it out to fill multiple needs or at least on someone that isn't a one year stop gap that has produced zero as of now.

Right, throwing good money after bad is cutting Taylor and then offering Phillip Daniels a contract. If we were using the 8.5 Million to add talent to the team, then I would agree with you but we aren't and the pick was already gone. So now in 2009 we have neither the player or the pick. How is that smart? Especially when we cut the player in question after adding a piece that would make him more effective at what he does?

[silverspring]

The odds of gauging talent of a FA based on the results of their playing football in the NFL is a heckuvalot better than trying to gauge the potential of of a draft pick, given the 200 or so schools they could be coming from.

That said, and unrelated to draft picks, I prefer to spend that $8.5M on FA to fill RT, DE and LB rather than just let it sit there. Signing players like Daniels and Wynn do not address problems. If anything, it might hasten the firing of Zorn and Blache after this season.

Oh I agree, i would rather spend that money on someone that will be here for more than a season.

But I don't agree with hastening the firing of Zorn and Blache. Zorn is only in his second season, i will give him his full shot. Blache's first year as coordinator resulted in a good defense if not great at times with no real starters across the entire dline.

[silverspring]

It doesn't take much talent evaluation skills to identify players who have already been successful in the NFL. I think building through the draft has merit, but not if the scouting dept sucks, and it clearly does.

That is all good in theory but we have failed at it over and over. Just ask Archuleta.



Right, throwing good money after bad is cutting Taylor and then offering Phillip Daniels a contract. If we were using the 8.5 Million to add talent to the team, then I would agree with you but we aren't and the pick was already gone. So now in 2009 we have neither the player or the pick. How is that smart? Especially when we cut the player in question after adding a piece that would make him more effective at what he does?

Sorry Keino I am not going to justify the taylor move by looking at a bad move that followed it. The Taylor move made no sense. His past success was at RDE and as a blitzing linebacker. But we put this 240 pound player at LDE on an already light line. On top of that he isn't interested in football anymore and is old. Plus, we had to pay top dollar for him and picks. There was simply nothing good about the move except his career stats.

[Keino]

That is all good in theory but we have failed at it over and over. Just ask Archuleta.

Vinny has way more hits (or has been involved with) in Free Agency than he has in the draft. Just ask Taylor Jacobs, Manny White (Hi BNG!), and a plethora of other bums taken in the 1st 4 rounds of the draft (Areas of the draft competent front offices get quality players out of). Notice I didn't mention any of last year's picks, because I do recognize that the jury is still out.





Sorry Keino I am not going to justify the taylor move by looking at a bad move that followed it. The Taylor move made no sense. His past success was at RDE and as a blitzing linebacker. But we put this 240 pound player at LDE on an already light line. On top of that he isn't interested in football anymore and is old. Plus, we had to pay top dollar for him and picks. There was simply nothing good about the move except his career stats.

It wouldn't be the first time you were wrong. Of course it made sense, it addressed the biggest need on the team at the time. A Pass rushing DE. Now we didn't use him the way he should be used, but is that the fault of the player, or is that the Front office and the Coaches not being on the same page? WHen healthy last year, Taylor showed that he could get it done. Unfortunately, that wasn't very often last season. Both ends demonstrated that they needed more push up the middle to be more effective. So, again, what made it bad was the fact that we gave up on him. We were already out of the pick we gave up. You say throwing good money after bad is bringing Taylor back. I couldn't disagree more. Throwing good money after bad is letting Taylor go and trying to replace him with the bum who blew out his knee that led to the trade in the 1st place.

If we brought on Bertrand Berry or some other talent (Which is still an aging vet) it makes sense, but under current circumstances it makes no sense at all.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

Well, at least we are not the Cardi.... ugh, that joke's dead.

[Tha Boss Hogg]

Well, at least we are not the Cardi.... ugh, that joke's dead.

Every team goes through spells, I have noticed that teams that dominate a conference or division are often the teams who a few years prior were getting dominated by other teams, our time will come back, I just don't know when, (Example the Dolphins and Falcons of late...)

[akhhorus]

Oh I agree, i would rather spend that money on someone that will be here for more than a season.

But I don't agree with hastening the firing of Zorn and Blache. Zorn is only in his second season, i will give him his full shot. Blache's first year as coordinator resulted in a good defense if not great at times with no real starters across the entire dline.

You are smoking crack if you think Blache ran even a good defense.

[skinsfan36]

what else is new. same old song and dance. the eagles and cowboys dont scare me as much as jerry reese having a loaded team who won the super bowl 2 years ago,and a healthy fierce dline having 9 picks.
i think we get a comp pick maybe even mr irrelevant.
but with vinny drafting we might as well trade up for 1st rounders and high 2nds. if we are going to have more picks let morrocco brown draft them

[Skins-fo-life]

Oh I agree, i would rather spend that money on someone that will be here for more than a season.

But I don't agree with hastening the firing of Zorn and Blache. Zorn is only in his second season, i will give him his full shot. Blache's first year as coordinator resulted in a good defense if not great at times with no real starters across the entire dline.

I would say the defense was ok at times but never great. Great defenses don't let the Bengals and 49er's drive down the field on you. Personally I blame the 49er's loss on Blache. He never adjusted to what they were doing. A great defense would be Pittsburgh and Baltimore IMO.

Since this thread is about the draft I will stay on topic for my next point. What is 4 draft picks gonna do to fill the holes on this team? More than likely nothing. Unless the FO trades someone or the 1st rounder this draft will be lucky to produce 2 worthy NFL caliber players. Yes Horton was a good pick but the jury IMO is still out on him. He didn't finish as strong as he started but the injury he sustained could have something to do with it. I said it before in another post but I'm sure the draft will be a CB, QB, WR, or some other position there is not an obvious need for. I hope I'm wrong but I have a gut feeling this team is gonna be worse than they were last year. I honestly hope I get proven wrong.

[shally]

I would say the defense was ok at times but never great. Great defenses don't let the Bengals and 49er's drive down the field on you. Personally I blame the 49er's loss on Blache. He never adjusted to what they were doing. A great defense would be Pittsburgh and Baltimore IMO.

Since this thread is about the draft I will stay on topic for my next point. What is 4 draft picks gonna do to fill the holes on this team? More than likely nothing. Unless the FO trades someone or the 1st rounder this draft will be lucky to produce 2 worthy NFL caliber players. Yes Horton was a good pick but the jury IMO is still out on him. He didn't finish as strong as he started but the injury he sustained could have something to do with it. I said it before in another post but I'm sure the draft will be a CB, QB, WR, or some other position there is not an obvious need for. I hope I'm wrong but I have a gut feeling this team is gonna be worse than they were last year. I honestly hope I get proven wrong.

not true.. it would be inexcusable if that #13 pick does not turn into a starter-- especially if it is used on an OLman.. there will be quite a few guys who will come out of the first, and possibly second round

also, the 3rd rounder should be a usable player as well...if Vinny cannot manage that, he has no business running the draft

[silverspring]

Vinny has way more hits (or has been involved with) in Free Agency than he has in the draft. Just ask Taylor Jacobs, Manny White (Hi BNG!), and a plethora of other bums taken in the 1st 4 rounds of the draft (Areas of the draft competent front offices get quality players out of). Notice I didn't mention any of last year's picks, because I do recognize that the jury is still out.

Vinny only gets full credit for last year's draft in my book. I am sure he was well involved in prior drafts, but he wasn't the final decision. Only now is he the GM. Gibbs was in charge when he was here, so put manny white on him. And there can't be any question spurrier was the force behind the taylor jacobs pick.

Anyways if you want to give vinny credit for all that we could get into lloyd and archuleta and ARE and we would also have to give him credit for those drafts like Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley. I am not giving him credit for either.


It wouldn't be the first time you were wrong. Of course it made sense, it addressed the biggest need on the team at the time. A Pass rushing DE. Now we didn't use him the way he should be used, but is that the fault of the player, or is that the Front office and the Coaches not being on the same page? WHen healthy last year, Taylor showed that he could get it done. Unfortunately, that wasn't very often last season. Both ends demonstrated that they needed more push up the middle to be more effective. So, again, what made it bad was the fact that we gave up on him. We were already out of the pick we gave up. You say throwing good money after bad is bringing Taylor back. I couldn't disagree more. Throwing good money after bad is letting Taylor go and trying to replace him with the bum who blew out his knee that led to the trade in the 1st place.

If we brought on Bertrand Berry or some other talent (Which is still an aging vet) it makes sense, but under current circumstances it makes no sense at all.

Well the front office should have known how he would be used when they picked him and they should have known that we had no push up the middle and taylor would be worthless and get run over in the run game.

I understand your point, i just think it would be better to spread that money around, i don't see daniels as a replacement he is 1/5 of the cost and personally I would rather us just stick with youth. But I am not basing the taylor move on the next bad move or we would have to base the taylor one on the bad move before that.

[smoak]

Lack of success in the draft doesn't invalidate the importance of focusing on having that infusion of young talent. We're a second rate franchise in large part b/c we handcuff our ability to create a long term plan to reload.

[Patrick]

I would say the defense was ok at times but never great. Great defenses don't let the Bengals and 49er's drive down the field on you. Personally I blame the 49er's loss on Blache. He never adjusted to what they were doing. A great defense would be Pittsburgh and Baltimore IMO.

Since this thread is about the draft I will stay on topic for my next point. What is 4 draft picks gonna do to fill the holes on this team? More than likely nothing. Unless the FO trades someone or the 1st rounder this draft will be lucky to produce 2 worthy NFL caliber players. Yes Horton was a good pick but the jury IMO is still out on him. He didn't finish as strong as he started but the injury he sustained could have something to do with it. I said it before in another post but I'm sure the draft will be a CB, QB, WR, or some other position there is not an obvious need for. I hope I'm wrong but I have a gut feeling this team is gonna be worse than they were last year. I honestly hope I get proven wrong.

Have to disagree also. With the #13 pick the Skins can aquire an OLB that would probably start as well as one of the top 4-5 OT in a draft that is deep with OT or even the #1 OG. In the third round - a C or OLB who could contribute this season is VERY possible. It's a crap shoot with the rest but IF they done their homework - gem's are out there as we saw with Horton last year. .......... Skins can easily fill two area of need with a player that will be around for a long time.

[NamVet4]

I will begrudgingly wear my Burgundy and Gold glasses on draft day and hope our Beloved Team does well. There are too many variables in the FO to predict with certainty where we will go. History tells me my hope is misplaced and misguided. Dam you Danny and Vinnie!!!!! Four or forty picks; you will screw up this team!

[BurgundyNGold]

Oh I agree, i would rather spend that money on someone that will be here for more than a season.

But I don't agree with hastening the firing of Zorn and Blache. Zorn is only in his second season, i will give him his full shot. Blache's first year as coordinator resulted in a good defense if not great at times with no real starters across the entire dline.
If Zorn doesn't make the playoffs, he will be fired. Take it to the bank.

[Skins7ny]

that's because they have had one of the best all time DC's ever.. someone who really didnt want to move on
... and above all, someone who understands how important pressure is to any defense-- unlike the lunkhead we have
Jim Johnson is a very good but somewhat overrated DC. There is a reason that the Eagles have only gotten to one Super Bowl despite several years at or near the top of the division. Johnson favors light, athletic linemen, who tend to wear down late in games and who tend to get run over by the better run-blocking teams of the NFC East. Johnson lives by the blitz, but also dies by the blitz. Being aggressive is great if you don't get burned when it counts. In my view, it is better to build your defense with a big, space-eating DTs even if they are less athletic, and DEs that can rush the passer from the outside (Johnson historically gets good pass-rushing DEs, but some of them are small for the position).
wont happen... that might be the only thing we are good at-- tampering
Having dinner with the agent for your prize target in public is just downright stupid and reckless. We might wind up getting away with it (I hope), but Snyder could just as easily have had dinner with the agent in his hotel room rather than in a public place where they would be spotted.
....[W]hat you continue to ignore in your ramblings about Taylor, is that dumping him this year is what made it a bad trade. Getting multiple years out of him would have been worth the pick, expecially considering what we have done with 2nd rounders while Vinny has had input. We finally get him (Taylor) what he needs to be successful and we dump him based on his unwillingness to add language to his contract that requires him to participate in the off-season program? We signed him with the understanding that we would not alter his contract. Feel free to reconcile that. It's not like cutting him gets us the draft pick back....
Not if he is going to give us 3 sacks and get continually blown out vs. the run. Keeping him just to save face is the exact same thing everyone is criticizing the team for doing with our 10 draft picks last year. Taylor cannot play in this scheme, and another year of watching him watch RBs fly by him at LDE was not going to do us any good. If we felt he could still rush the passer, we would have kept him, workouts or no. We obviously don't think he can even do that.
That is all good in theory but we have failed at it over and over. Just ask Archuleta.
Sorry Keino I am not going to justify the taylor move by looking at a bad move that followed it. The Taylor move made no sense. His past success was at RDE and as a blitzing linebacker. But we put this 240 pound player at LDE on an already light line. On top of that he isn't interested in football anymore and is old. Plus, we had to pay top dollar for him and picks. There was simply nothing good about the move except his career stats.
You know that disclaimer that investment houses put at the end of their ads?
"Past success is not a guarantee of future success"? Or words to that effect?
Dan and Vinny should have that phrase blown up into a banner and hang them in their offices.
It wouldn't be the first time you were wrong. Of course it made sense, it addressed the biggest need on the team at the time. A Pass rushing DE. Now we didn't use him the way he should be used, but is that the fault of the player, or is that the Front office and the Coaches not being on the same page? WHen healthy last year, Taylor showed that he could get it done. Unfortunately, that wasn't very often last season. Both ends demonstrated that they needed more push up the middle to be more effective. So, again, what made it bad was the fact that we gave up on him. We were already out of the pick we gave up. You say throwing good money after bad is bringing Taylor back. I couldn't disagree more. Throwing good money after bad is letting Taylor go and trying to replace him with the bum who blew out his knee that led to the trade in the 1st place.
If we brought on Bertrand Berry or some other talent (Which is still an aging vet) it makes sense, but under current circumstances it makes no sense at all.
Taylor was playing out of position and did not fit our scheme. He also arguably had lost a step or two, which Parcells saw on film. Yes, he had 11 sacks in 2007, but 7 of those were against vastly inferior competition in a handful of games. When he went against the better tackles, he struggled.
Blache did not want him. Whatever you think of Blache, he is a professional football coach, and I would trust him to know who fits his system and who doesn't more than I trust Vinny or Danny. Getting him in that situation was stupid, and you didn't have to be a football expert to know that Taylor and the Redskins was a bad marraige.
Since this thread is about the draft I will stay on topic for my next point. What is 4 draft picks gonna do to fill the holes on this team? More than likely nothing. Unless the FO trades someone or the 1st rounder this draft will be lucky to produce 2 worthy NFL caliber players. Yes Horton was a good pick but the jury IMO is still out on him. He didn't finish as strong as he started but the injury he sustained could have something to do with it. I said it before in another post but I'm sure the draft will be a CB, QB, WR, or some other position there is not an obvious need for. I hope I'm wrong but I have a gut feeling this team is gonna be worse than they were last year. I honestly hope I get proven wrong.
Wow! On-topic! What a concept! I think our 4 primary needs are right offensive tackle, right defensive end, left outside linebacker and backup interior lineman, not necessarily in that order. I think the value will be OT with our first pick, LB with our 3rd, and then maybe we find a guy in rounds 5 and 6 who have a chance to fill the other needs. Our next priority I think is another CB who can compete with Smoot for the nickel job. Of course, this is all predicated on Vinny choosing the right players, which none of us seems to have confidence in.

[BurgundyNGold]

Vinny only gets full credit for last year's draft in my book. I am sure he was well involved in prior drafts, but he wasn't the final decision. Only now is he the GM. Gibbs was in charge when he was here, so put manny white on him. And there can't be any question spurrier was the force behind the taylor jacobs pick.

Anyways if you want to give vinny credit for all that we could get into lloyd and archuleta and ARE and we would also have to give him credit for those drafts like Sean Taylor and Chris Cooley. I am not giving him credit for either.

That's too much. Vinny was head of pro and college personnel and scouting in 2000, and from 2002-present. That means that he ran the evaluation of talent and that any coach -- Spurrier, Gibbs or Zorn -- would be making personnel decisions in FA and the draft based on the top to bottom talent evaluations and "big board" assembled by Vinny.

Since Vinny took over personnel scouting and evaluation in 2000 (excluding 2001), the Redskins have drafted a lower percentage of players who are still in the NFL than Matt Millen did over that same period.

For the poor coaches having to make decisions based on Vinny's "big board", all I can say is I feel for you. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Gravy]

If Zorn doesn't make the playoffs, he will be fired. Take it to the bank.

Yep Yep...and in there may "lie" a whole other plan...maybe Zorn was doomed from the start because who The DaVinny Code really wants, wasn't available at the time or...maybe the other coaches are too smart and realize that worked in D.C. would be Hell

[SkinsfaninNJ]

If Zorn doesn't make the playoffs, he will be fired. Take it to the bank.

I was thinking the economy would slow Snyder down on firing coaches and paying people not to work for the team, but after this year's bonuses, I guess not.

[dj_stouty]

For the most part...Vinny is an idiot. For the rare times he has found a solid FA (London Fletcher) or value draft pick (Horton) there are far more times he has screwed things up royaly in every possible way of player acquisition.

I'm with Keino. Who cares if he has draft picks or not? He will most likely screw it up anyway...

Hell...lets package the rest of our picks together, toss in a few bums like Betts and trade up for the LB from Wake? Why not? I think he is as safe a pick is there is out there...and drafting another FB or TE with the 3rd isn't going to be worthy to us anyway...

At this point; I'm open to ANYTHING.

[VegasSkinsFan]

For the most part...Vinny is an idiot. For the rare times he has found a solid FA (London Fletcher) or value draft pick (Horton) there are far more times he has screwed things up royaly in every possible way of player acquisition.

I'm with Keino. Who cares if he has draft picks or not? He will most likely screw it up anyway...

Hell...lets package the rest of our picks together, toss in a few bums like Betts and trade up for the LB from Wake? Why not? I think he is as safe a pick is there is out there...and drafting another FB or TE with the 3rd isn't going to be worthy to us anyway...

At this point; I'm open to ANYTHING.

Is he an idiot or visionary?? Think about it, his master goal was an uncapped league. For years he has been throwing away picks or just making some bad ones to show us that the draft is useless. With no cap, now he can sign every FA he wants, regardless of age because each year he can do the same. Vinny using his vision/creativity...his "Visitivity" to accomplish making the impossible possible....the "Possimpible" Oh yeah, and by the way...Vinny you are an idiot !!!!! GO SKINS !!!!!!

[BurgundyNGold]

For the most part...Vinny is an idiot. For the rare times he has found a solid FA (London Fletcher) or value draft pick (Horton) there are far more times he has screwed things up royaly in every possible way of player acquisition.

I'm with Keino. Who cares if he has draft picks or not? He will most likely screw it up anyway...

Hell...lets package the rest of our picks together, toss in a few bums like Betts and trade up for the LB from Wake? Why not? I think he is as safe a pick is there is out there...and drafting another FB or TE with the 3rd isn't going to be worthy to us anyway...

At this point; I'm open to ANYTHING.
If this is the prevailing sentiment, then the time has come to ratchet up the "Fire Vinny" campaign. I figure by November, the stage will be set.

[shally]

If this is the prevailing sentiment, then the time has come to ratchet up the "Fire Vinny" campaign. I figure by November, the stage will be set.


first time he has to face flying shoes at a presser, i predict vinny does his groundhog impersonation...

[shally]

For the most part...Vinny is an idiot. For the rare times he has found a solid FA (London Fletcher) or value draft pick (Horton) there are far more times he has screwed things up royaly in every possible way of player acquisition.

I'm with Keino. Who cares if he has draft picks or not? He will most likely screw it up anyway...

Hell...lets package the rest of our picks together, toss in a few bums like Betts and trade up for the LB from Wake? Why not? I think he is as safe a pick is there is out there...and drafting another FB or TE with the 3rd isn't going to be worthy to us anyway...

At this point; I'm open to ANYTHING.

except give blache a premium LB pick and he will probably sit him at the end of the bench for free lancing and actually making plays..

[BurgundyNGold]

first time he has to face flying shoes at a presser, i predict vinny does his groundhog impersonation...
LMAO. I was thinking more of a Sadr City-esque riot in the Purple Lot, lol.

[Keino]

first time he has to face flying shoes at a presser, i predict vinny does his groundhog impersonation...

I already destroyed one PC monitor while listening to his radio show. I threw 2 size 11 Timberland Boots before I realized that he couldn't even see me throw them.....

[shally]

I already destroyed one PC monitor while listening to his radio show. I threw 2 size 11 Timberland Boots before I realized that he couldn't even see me throw them.....


THAT was your mistake.. make sure it is live vinny before you waste good shoe leather

[CNYSkinFan]

For the most part...Vinny is an idiot. For the rare times he has found a solid FA (London Fletcher) or value draft pick (Horton) there are far more times he has screwed things up royaly in every possible way of player acquisition.

I'm with Keino. Who cares if he has draft picks or not? He will most likely screw it up anyway...

Hell...lets package the rest of our picks together, toss in a few bums like Betts and trade up for the LB from Wake? Why not? I think he is as safe a pick is there is out there...and drafting another FB or TE with the 3rd isn't going to be worthy to us anyway...

At this point; I'm open to ANYTHING.

No neeed. We have resignead MArcus Washington. Problem solved.

[shally]

No neeed. We have resignead MArcus Washington. Problem solved.


is that official ? please say, not yet.. i will need to work myself up to the idea of seeing him dancing like some kind of mutant whirling dervish after he has "stopped" a RB for an 11 yard gain--- on third and 10....

[Nomad]

Including projected compensatory picks.

Eagles
1.21
1.28 (From CAR)
2.21
3.21
4.21
5.5 (From CLE)
5.17 (From NYJ)
5.21
6.21
6.22 (From MIN)
7.21
11 picks

Cowboys
2.19
3.5 (From CLE)
4.1 (From DET)
4.17
5.20
5.30 (From TEN)
5.COMP
6.24 (From MIA)
6.COMP
7.1 (From DET)
7.18
11 picks

Giants
1.29
2.13 (From NO)
2.28
3.27
4.29
4.COMP
5.15 (From NO)
5.28
6.27
7.27
10 Picks

Redskins
1.13
3.16
5.14
6.13
4 Picks

This speaks for itself. Anyone who thinks we will gain on rest of division long term is dreaming.

Also, for no particular reason, two teams stuck out: Miami has 9 including our 2nd rounder, New England 12 picks including a 1st rounder, 3 2nds, 2 3rds incl/projected comp. 6 potential starters all at reasonable salaries!, plus 6 more late round picks to gamble on gems.

Our FO blows!

[akhhorus]

Didn't someone else start a thread about this recently?

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Didn't someone else start a thread about this recently?

The situation is so bad, we need two threads on it.

On a different note, did you hear Vinny's email account was hacked.

[Gravy]

If Vinny didn't do good with 10...maybe 4 picks is safer

[akhhorus]

The situation is so bad, we need two threads on it.

On a different note, did you hear Vinny's email account was hacked.

Yeah, I almost threw in that joke lol.

[Tha Boss Hogg]

We get Comp picks too right???

[ChiefPowhatan17]

The eagles have 2 more for trading Greg Lewis.... a 5th and a 7th next year. So that makes 12 for the phully iggles.

[BurgundyNGold]

We get Comp picks too right???
Yeah, I think we might get a complimentary frozen shrimp ring from Price Club for Priouleau, lol.

[Tha Boss Hogg]

The eagles have 2 more for trading Greg Lewis.... a 5th and a 7th next. So that makes 12 for the phully iggles.

I thought they were next year or something...

[Farmer Ted]

If Vinny didn't do good with 10...maybe 4 picks is safer

It makes it harder for everyone else to draft. Imagine how tough it will be to select a stud at the end of the second round, when we won't have weeded out three complete losers.

[bigcmr]

Man this has been a problem for way to long.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

It makes it harder for everyone else to draft. Imagine how tough it will be to select a stud at the end of the second round, when we won't have weeded out three complete losers.

Good point. Raise the bust factor for the rest of the division.

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

i'd like to see the skins get James Laurinaitis.he's big,fast and reminds me of urlacher.

[Tha Boss Hogg]

i'd like to see the skins get James Laurinaitis.he's big,fast and reminds me of urlacher.

I like James, out of all the LB's he was the most consistent...

[esmith1790]

I like James, out of all the LB's he was the most consistent...


I think apart of him is stereotyped a LBer from Ohio State.


To high of a pick to take him early, besides AJ hawk, not very many good ones lately.

[hail2skins]

Threads merged. Please review the 1st couple (2) pages of the board before creating a thread. Chances are that topic already exist. The mods and admins won't be merging when we see this. We'll be deleting the threads from now.