The Official HR Reed Doughty Poll

[Keino]

Please Vote. This is a public poll, so understand that people will see how you voted and judge you accordingly. Just kidding with that last phrase.....sort of.

[FanFromArizona]

Camp fodder is how I feel about him. Using him as a punching bag during TC.

He'll get cut.

[JasonCampbell]

Kinda torn here. He's a good special teams guy and could start in a pinch, so he's fine for a backup. I still voted the FO is lazy because there has to be someone out there that could do what we need Reed to be better.

I also think his hearing issue is a huge disability for him to try to play with.

[Fathead]

I don't know about sings of the apocalypse.

[firehawk157]

Kinda torn here. He's a good special teams guy and could start in a pinch, so he's fine for a backup. I still voted the FO is lazy because there has to be someone out there that could do what we need Reed to be better.

I also think his hearing issue is a huge disability for him to try to play with.
decent depth, can start in a pinch and is a fairly decent ST guy. For 500k with no commitment, not too bad...

[Keino]

I don't know about sings of the apocalypse.

You can blame CNY. That was a Straight C & P.

I voted both B and C and think this is a STUPID STUPID STUPID signing. He has no role on this team (or shouldn't based on his play) given the younger and more talented players we already have at the position. There are any number of players that play the same position that I would rather have and could be had for similar money.

Reed Doughty sucks.

[NCskinsfanatic]

I went with..."What is both B&C Alex"

[CNYSkinFan]

b&C obviously

[akhhorus]

He sucks big floppy donkey balls. Its welfare.

[CNYSkinFan]

firehawk, you cote meh don't care when obviusly your posts indicated choice A. I wish you had the courage to vote your convictions

[Fathead]

firehawk, you cote meh don't care when obviusly your posts indicated choice A. I wish you had the courage to vote your convictions

First you sing about the apocalypse and now this. CNY, put the booze down.

[CNYSkinFan]

First you sing about the apocalypse and now this. CNY, put the booze down.
It's my apoco (hic) my apoco (hic) my end of the world and I will sing if i want (hict) want to

[cwh25]

If he's a starter this year we're screwed when it comes to screens and draws. He can't chase down anyone, and I'll be drinking to much Templeton Rye after games again this year.

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

losing a roster spot to an olineman we need worse.
very stupid and right in line with the snyderatto monster!

[csquared]

Meh dont care.

[Tha Boss Hogg]

LAZYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[Gravy]

He sucks big floppy donkey balls. Its welfare.

As oppose just to just balls...no they must be big, floppy and that of a donkey...is David Terrel available to play cornerback again...

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I voted b&c because the apocalypse is better than this.

[flave1969]

Voted B. Our FO really has no ambition at getting better by doing things the right way. I wondered how we could afford AH. I wondered why we would cut JT if we were not going to use the space. I wonder why everyone can see our weaknesses yet the FO and coaches are wilfully blind to the realities that face them.

This promises to be a long season.

[NamVet4]

B - standard operating procedure for the FO of the Redskins. Reed Doughty doesn't fit the scheme of this team, by virtue of talent or lack thereof, or the glaring needs in other areas - O lineman ring a bell FO?????

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

Kinda torn here. He's a good special teams guy and could start in a pinch, so he's fine for a backup. I still voted the FO is lazy because there has to be someone out there that could do what we need Reed to be better.

I also think his hearing issue is a huge disability for him to try to play with.
+1

[Hr fan]

Meh. If anything I view the retread signings as a floor but not a committment. If they can get better playeres ok, nothing lost (no signing bonus, or other counting against the cap unless they make the top 53). Smart until you consider the staff tendencies to go with incapable vets over promising rookies. This becomes meh because, until Snyder sells the team, this is what we will get.

[firehawk157]

Meh. If anything I view the retread signings as a floor but not a committment. If they can get better playeres ok, nothing lost (no signing bonus, or other counting against the cap unless they make the top 53). Smart until you consider the staff tendencies to go with incapable vets over promising rookies. This becomes meh because, until Snyder sells the team, this is what we will get.
I doubt very seriously that we are planning on starting Doughty over Horton barring some miracle preseason/training camp by Doughty. Of course, I'd test for steriod use at that point.

[BurgundyNGold]

Kinda torn here. He's a good special teams guy and could start in a pinch, so he's fine for a backup. I still voted the FO is lazy because there has to be someone out there that could do what we need Reed to be better.

I also think his hearing issue is a huge disability for him to try to play with.
I think his sucking issue is his biggest disability on the field.

[hogskins]

Went with the "meh" choice although I might have gone with B&C if B were written a little differently. While I think they are lazy, I also think that, at this point, they must be aware of their inability to turn a no-name sow's ear into a silk purse. They seem to either spend extravagantly on a proven talent (someone else's, in most cases), or recycle their own retreads on defense, to avoid an even higher percentage of failed experiments. Does the 2nd part make sense? (as written, not as executed by the team, of course ...)

[shally]

NONE of the ABOVE choices

i think it is because he is a fine special teams player
i think it is because he is a nice guy who tries very hard
i think it is because blache likes him a lot
i think it is because he is cheap. he signed a contract with NO signing bonus, so they can cut him with no cost. cheaper than green, cheaper than daivs. cheaper than almost any other vet safety they could find and he knows blache's system already..

by the way, it is not welfare for the doughty family if he is cut before the season. he gets nothing then. plus, if he gets cut in the final cut, he is actually screwed because he will have less chance to catch on with any other team than if he had not been re signed..

[redskin_rich]

I don't think i have ever seen a more worthless poll or such interest/loathing of such an unimportant player.

Can we blame Reed for the economy while we're at it?

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't think i have ever seen a more worthless poll or such interest/loathing of such an unimportant player.

Can we blame Reed for the economy while we're at it?
I don't really care about the guy any more than any other player that sucks donkeys and needs to be gone but keeps coming back like some form of Redskin herpes.

[Keino]

NONE of the ABOVE choices

i think it is because he is a fine special teams player
i think it is because he is a nice guy who tries very hard
i think it is because blache likes him a lot
i think it is because he is cheap. he signed a contract with NO signing bonus, so they can cut him with no cost. cheaper than green, cheaper than daivs. cheaper than almost any other vet safety they could find and he knows blache's system already..

by the way, it is not welfare for the doughty family if he is cut before the season. he gets nothing then. plus, if he gets cut in the final cut, he is actually screwed because he will have less chance to catch on with any other team than if he had not been re signed..

Because so many teams are beating down his door waiting to sign the guy.

None of the above listed reasons are valid reasons to sign an inferior player.

[firehawk157]

Because so many teams are beating down his door waiting to sign the guy.

None of the above listed reasons are valid reasons to sign an inferior player.
The problem I see is I have yet to hear a good reason to not sign the guy (he can be cut for no money whatsoever). Sure, he's not a very good safety and there are better ones to be had out there. But this is a no-risk move. The guy works hard, is good in the locker room (so I've heard) and half the price of Keith Davis (who is not a very high character guy).

[Patrick]

Ready isn't a big deal ..... (so I guess I don't care)
If he's beat out in camp then he'll be gone.
If he beats out others he'll stay.
Bottomline - Special Teams guys are always good to have around but I'm not going let it ruin my day if for some reason they can find better talent.
It all works out in the end .................................

[Keino]

The problem I see is I have yet to hear a good reason to not sign the guy (he can be cut for no money whatsoever). Sure, he's not a very good safety and there are better ones to be had out there. But this is a no-risk move. The guy works hard, is good in the locker room (so I've heard) and half the price of Keith Davis (who is not a very high character guy).

Sucking isn't a good enough reason? If there are better out there and there is a need at safety, then get better.

[Skins7ny]

NONE of the ABOVE choices

i think it is because he is a fine special teams player
i think it is because he is a nice guy who tries very hard
i think it is because blache likes him a lot
i think it is because he is cheap. he signed a contract with NO signing bonus, so they can cut him with no cost. cheaper than green, cheaper than daivs. cheaper than almost any other vet safety they could find and he knows blache's system already..

by the way, it is not welfare for the doughty family if he is cut before the season. he gets nothing then. plus, if he gets cut in the final cut, he is actually screwed because he will have less chance to catch on with any other team than if he had not been re signed..

Agree with this post.
I voted A, although I don't think he has a chance of starting barring injury. I think he will be the 4th safety and a ST player, and in that role, he is a good guy to have on the team. He provides excellent depth and plays on all the coverage units and handles his assignments well. He is inexpensive and no-risk, as Shally and others have pointed out. No signing bonus.

What is not to like?

Also, the guy has overcome a disability, his learning curve from a small school and the situation with his son to continue to play at (or for those of you who hate him, near) a NFL level. He has overcome a lot more adversity than most of the people who are insulting him I would imagine. Even if you think he is not an NFL-worthy backup, how about treating him with some respect? Surely he has earned it. He has in my book.

[Keino]

Agree with this post.
I voted A, although I don't think he has a chance of starting barring injury. I think he will be the 4th safety and a ST player, and in that role, he is a good guy to have on the team. He provides excellent depth and plays on all the coverage units and handles his assignments well. He is inexpensive and no-risk, as Shally and others have pointed out. No signing bonus.

What is not to like?

Also, the guy has overcome a disability, his learning curve from a small school and the situation with his son to continue to play at (or for those of you who hate him, near) a NFL level. He has overcome a lot more adversity than most of the people who are insulting him I would imagine. Even if you think he is not an NFL-worthy backup, how about treating him with some respect? Surely he has earned it. He has in my book.


What's not to like is that he has shown zero aptitude for playing the position for which he is listed on the roster, that there are 2 2nd year players who are more athletic and have displayed more aptitude for the position and we should be signing people who can push people ahead of them via competition. Doughty sucks.

As to the rest of your post, it's not about football. I don't respect his game and my comments are limited to what occurs between the lines. He's overcome adversity. Who hasn't? Whether he has overcome more or less than me is far from the point. Overcoming adversity does not magically make the unqualified qualified.

We have 3 major holes on this roster and signing this type of player in lieu of those needs demonstrates complacency, laziness and incompetence on the part of the front office.

[akhhorus]

What's not to like is that he has shown zero aptitude for playing the position for which he is listed on the roster, that there are 2 2nd year players who are more athletic and have displayed more aptitude for the position and we should be signing people who can push people ahead of them via competition. Doughty sucks.

As to the rest of your post, it's not about football. I don't respect his game and my comments are limited to what occurs between the lines. He's overcome adversity. Who hasn't? Whether he has overcome more or less than me is far from the point. Overcoming adversity does not magically make the unqualified qualified.

We have 3 major holes on this roster and signing this type of player in lieu of those needs demonstrates complacency, laziness and incompetence on the part of the front office.

Yeah, not to sound like a jerk, when it comes to football and playing on the field: who cares about his adversity. He can't play at an NFL level. If you want to give him a job because of his life story, make up some BS front office/community relations position for him. Don't junk up the roster with losers like him.

[Skins7ny]

What's not to like is that he has shown zero aptitude for playing the position for which he is listed on the roster, that there are 2 2nd year players who are more athletic and have displayed more aptitude for the position and we should be signing people who can push people ahead of them via competition. Doughty sucks.

As to the rest of your post, it's not about football. I don't respect his game and my comments are limited to what occurs between the lines. He's overcome adversity. Who hasn't? Whether he has overcome more or less than me is far from the point. Overcoming adversity does not magically make the unqualified qualified.

We have 3 major holes on this roster and signing this type of player in lieu of those needs demonstrates complacency, laziness and incompetence on the part of the front office.

Yeah, not to sound like a jerk, when it comes to football and playing on the field: who cares about his adversity. He can't play at an NFL level. If you want to give him a job because of his life story, make up some BS front office/community relations position for him. Don't junk up the roster with losers like him.

I think you are both missing my point, which I may not have made clear.
I agree that the issue is whether he can play: if he cannot play, he has no business being signed to the roster whether he has overcome adversity, is mother theresa, etc.

As to the first issue, I have a serious disagreement with you two and many others about whether Doughty belongs in the league on merit. I think he is a career backup, but someone who has played well enough to stick on our roster as the 4th safety. I think he can play for us if needed without embarrassing himself or us. You disagree. That is cool.

As to the second issue, some people have posted some really nasty things about Doughty in the past. Looking back over the posts in this thread, there really isn't anything personally insulting to the guy (although I think saying he "sucks big donkey balls" comes close, Akh). So I withdraw my complaint-but I do think Doughty deserves respect for what he has gone through to get this far in the NFL, whatever you think of his abilities. Yes, most players have overcome some adversity to get where they are, but his is clearly more acute or more impressive: Obviously his own teammates feel that way, or they wouldn't have voted him the team's Ed Block Courage award.

And Keino, I don't think the Doughty signing is "in lieu" of filling the 3 major holes you refer to. Doughty's cap # is negligible. His signing is not going to prevent us from signing anybody.

[firehawk157]

What's not to like is that he has shown zero aptitude for playing the position for which he is listed on the roster, that there are 2 2nd year players who are more athletic and have displayed more aptitude for the position and we should be signing people who can push people ahead of them via competition. Doughty sucks.

As to the rest of your post, it's not about football. I don't respect his game and my comments are limited to what occurs between the lines. He's overcome adversity. Who hasn't? Whether he has overcome more or less than me is far from the point. Overcoming adversity does not magically make the unqualified qualified.

We have 3 major holes on this roster and signing this type of player in lieu of those needs demonstrates complacency, laziness and incompetence on the part of the front office.
I could get political with this, but I'm not going to. The point is, he isn't expected to play any safety, he's a ST. It's not like Killer Keith Davis is that much better at the safety position anyways. He was horrid for the Cowboys. We need a guy who is a decent ST guy and who can play safety in a pinch. He can do that, as long as we realize he can't cover Witten or TO.

[akhhorus]

As to the second issue, some people have posted some really nasty things about Doughty in the past. Looking back over the posts in this thread, there really isn't anything personally insulting to the guy (although I think saying he "sucks big donkey balls" comes close, Akh). So I withdraw my complaint-but I do think Doughty deserves respect for what he has gone through to get this far in the NFL, whatever you think of his abilities. Yes, most players have overcome some adversity to get where they are, but his is clearly more acute or more impressive: Obviously his own teammates feel that way, or they wouldn't have voted him the team's Ed Block Courage award.


I respect him as a person for everything he's dealt with. No one should have to face having a child with a life threatening medical problem, its a total nightmare for him and his wife.

But...
As a player, he sucks. He has no business playing in the NFL. He sucks big floppy donkey balls. And at the end of the day, thats his job. If he can't do his job(which he can't) he has no business playing for the redskins. Adversity or not. Snyder has done charity for players in tough situations in the past, and I'm sure he can find him some assistant to the GM type job in the FO for some cash as long as he wants, but signing him as a player is a total farce. Thats disrespecting the team cutting players of better quality to sign drek like him.

[firehawk157]

Sucking isn't a good enough reason? If there are better out there and there is a need at safety, then get better.
You can't possibly disagree signing a guy to whom we owe nothing and can be cut in an instant to make more room if one of the other guys decide to play for us.

As for the other guys, there is a possibility they are asking more than they are worth (much like Cartwright and Collins did) based on their body of work. Maybe they'll come down a bit and match the demand or maybe they won't but to hold off a non-guaranteed signing because you don't personally think somebody is good enough is stupid. What if that better talent never comes down in their demands or some other team decides it will pay them? Then you have to pay Doughty anyways.

[BurgundyNGold]

I could get political with this, but I'm not going to. The point is, he isn't expected to play any safety, he's a ST. It's not like Killer Keith Davis is that much better at the safety position anyways. He was horrid for the Cowboys. We need a guy who is a decent ST guy and who can play safety in a pinch. He can do that, as long as we realize he can't cover Witten or TO.
We do. His name is Kareem Moore. That's why we *drafted* the guy, no?

[Keino]

I could get political with this, but I'm not going to. The point is, he isn't expected to play any safety, he's a ST. It's not like Killer Keith Davis is that much better at the safety position anyways. He was horrid for the Cowboys. We need a guy who is a decent ST guy and who can play safety in a pinch. He can do that, as long as we realize he can't cover Witten or TO.

Why sign a Safety if you don't want him to play Safety? That's the biggest problem with our Front Office thinking in my view. We get personnel that is incapable of playing the position they are on the roster to play because they are "character guys", Play Special Teams and are Cheap and then our team suffers when we actually have to rely on these guys at their Roster positions because they are called into duty. (Rock Cartwright is another example of this)

If by playing in a pinch you mean he can line-up at the position, well hell, I can do that for a quarter of what we are paying Doughty. I wonder if you would then argue it is a quality signing since I wouldn't be envisioned to ever play Safety.

Otherwise, it is absolutely false that he can play Safety in a pinch. He has proven beyond any rational or reasonable doubt that he is incapable of playing Safety EFFECTIVELY even in a pinch.

Feel free to point out where I argue that we should sign Keith Davis.

[firehawk157]

I respect him as a person for everything he's dealt with. No one should have to face having a child with a life threatening medical problem, its a total nightmare for him and his wife.

But...
As a player, he sucks. He has no business playing in the NFL. He sucks big floppy donkey balls. And at the end of the day, thats his job. If he can't do his job(which he can't) he has no business playing for the redskins. Adversity or not. Snyder has done charity for players in tough situations in the past, and I'm sure he can find him some assistant to the GM type job in the FO for some cash as long as he wants, but signing him as a player is a total farce. Thats disrespecting the team cutting players of better quality to sign drek like him.
Have we cut any safeties to pay for his contract? Did we need the $8M JT's cut brought us to pay for him? That's a weak argument... And it's not like signing Doughty puts us at a disadvantage in signing somebody else. He's easily gotten rid of if the opportunity presents itself.

[firehawk157]

We do. His name is Kareem Moore. That's why we *drafted* the guy, no?
One's a free safety who may be able to start one day and the other's a strong safety who is a ST player.

[BurgundyNGold]

Why sign a Safety if you don't want him to play Safety? That's the biggest problem with our Front Office thinking in my view. We get personnel that is incapable of playing the position they are on the roster to play because they are "character guys", Play Special Teams and are Cheap and then our team suffers when we actually have to rely on these guys at their Roster positions because they are called into duty. (Rock Cartwright is another example of this)

If by playing in a pinch you mean he can line-up at the position, well hell, I can do that for a quarter of what we are paying Doughty. I wonder if you would then argue it is a quality signing since I wouldn't be envisioned to ever play Safety.

Otherwise, it is absolutely false that he can play Safety in a pinch. He has proven beyond any rational or reasonable doubt that he is incapable of playing Safety EFFECTIVELY even in a pinch.

Feel free to point out where I argue that we should sign Keith Davis.
Reed Doughty, Rock Cartwright, James Thrash, Khary Campbell... that list just keeps getting longer. Why not just re-sign Ade Jimoh and get it over with already, lol?

[akhhorus]

Have we cut any safeties to pay for his contract? Did we need the $8M JT's cut brought us to pay for him? That's a weak argument... And it's not like signing Doughty puts us at a disadvantage in signing somebody else. He's easily gotten rid of if the opportunity presents itself.

It doesn't matter if we've cut other safeties to pay for him. We downgraded one position to help pay for losers like him(and potentially Philip Daniels, etc etc). Skins7ny's point is that he supposedly has a lot of respect in the locker room, my point is that what are you telling the locker room by bringing back a guy who can't play like him at the expense of players who can?

[firehawk157]

Why sign a Safety if you don't want him to play Safety? That's the biggest problem with our Front Office thinking in my view. We get personnel that is incapable of playing the position they are on the roster to play because they are "character guys", Play Special Teams and are Cheap and then our team suffers when we actually have to rely on these guys at their Roster positions because they are called into duty. (Rock Cartwright is another example of this)

If by playing in a pinch you mean he can line-up at the position, well hell, I can do that for a quarter of what we are paying Doughty. I wonder if you would then argue it is a quality signing since I wouldn't be envisioned to ever play Safety.

Otherwise, it is absolutely false that he can play Safety in a pinch. He has proven beyond any rational or reasonable doubt that he is incapable of playing Safety EFFECTIVELY even in a pinch.

Feel free to point out where I argue that we should sign Keith Davis.
The Bears drafted Devin Hester purely as a return guy. Keith Davis was the 3rd or 4th safety when Dallas signed him. Those guys were purely ST... To sign a guy just to play ST isn't dumb, it's paying attention to a facet of the game that MOST of us complain we suck at and need to upgrade.

[firehawk157]

It doesn't matter if we've cut other safeties to pay for him. We downgraded one position to help pay for losers like him(and potentially Philip Daniels, etc etc). Skins7ny's point is that he supposedly has a lot of respect in the locker room, my point is that what are you telling the locker room by bringing back a guy who can't play like him at the expense of players who can?
Correlation does not equal causation. We actually planned to re-sign Doughty before we released Taylor.

[BurgundyNGold]

One's a free safety who may be able to start one day and the other's a strong safety who is a ST player.
Kareem Moore plays ST (most of his tackles were on ST) and there really isn't a SS/FS distinction in this defense. Except for Doughty, who can only play one of the positions.

[akhhorus]

The Bears drafted Devin Hester purely as a return guy. Keith Davis was the 3rd or 4th safety when Dallas signed him. Those guys were purely ST... To sign a guy just to play ST isn't dumb, it's paying attention to a facet of the game that MOST of us complain we suck at and need to upgrade.

Except that Hester can contribute in ST. I haven't seen that Doughty is this special teams ace.

[akhhorus]

Correlation does not equal causation. We actually planned to re-sign Doughty before we released Taylor.

Based on what? We didn't tender him and he said he was talking to other teams.

[Skinz4lyfe]

Considering he can be cut w/o cap penalty makes this move ok at best. Are there better guys out there? Sure there are. Nevertheless, he'll probably end up being the 4th safety behind Horton, Moore, and Landry. Meaning he will not see much PT (barring injury).

[akhhorus]

Kareem Moore plays ST (most of his tackles were on ST) and there really isn't a SS/FS distinction in this defense. Except for Doughty, who can only play one of the positions.

WS. Waterboy Safety.

[BurgundyNGold]

Considering he can be cut w/o cap penalty makes this move ok at best. Are there better guys out there? Sure there are. Nevertheless, he'll probably end up being the 4th safety behind Horton, Moore, and Landry. Meaning he will not see much PT (barring injury).
That still makes me feel about as comfortable as when Ade Jimoh was our dime corner, lol.

[Keino]

I think you are both missing my point, which I may not have made clear.
I agree that the issue is whether he can play: if he cannot play, he has no business being signed to the roster whether he has overcome adversity, is mother theresa, etc.

As to the first issue, I have a serious disagreement with you two and many others about whether Doughty belongs in the league on merit. I think he is a career backup, but someone who has played well enough to stick on our roster as the 4th safety. I think he can play for us if needed without embarrassing himself or us. You disagree. That is cool.


And Keino, I don't think the Doughty signing is "in lieu" of filling the 3 major holes you refer to. Doughty's cap # is negligible. His signing is not going to prevent us from signing anybody.

I think that the view that Doughty doesn't belong on an NFL roster is supported by the fact no other team but us discussed the possibility of his signing with them. Not One. Players who belong in the NFL generate interest when they are unrestricted Free Agents, especially when they can be had cheaply.

And Yes, his signing is in lieu of addressing pressing needs. Unless you are aware of the NFL lifting its maximum roster rule, then his signing comes at the expense of an available roster spot. A roster spot that should be used to address a greater need. That there is no negative cap consequence stemming from his release is not really material to that point.

[Patrick]

The Bears drafted Devin Hester purely as a return guy. Keith Davis was the 3rd or 4th safety when Dallas signed him. Those guys were purely ST... To sign a guy just to play ST isn't dumb, it's paying attention to a facet of the game that MOST of us complain we suck at and need to upgrade.

Your NOT seriouly using that as a comparison ................ :rolleyes:

[Keino]

The Bears drafted Devin Hester purely as a return guy. Keith Davis was the 3rd or 4th safety when Dallas signed him. Those guys were purely ST... To sign a guy just to play ST isn't dumb, it's paying attention to a facet of the game that MOST of us complain we suck at and need to upgrade.

You mean the guy for the Bears who caught 51 passes last year and scored 3 receiving TDs and was previously the most feared return man in the league?

Yea I see your point. And by that I mean I don't think you really have a point. Hester was drafted as a CB who had the ability to play a number of positions. Now he is a WR who posted Randle-El type numbers last year......

[skin4ever]

ehh, his signing really doesnt matter(not much money and has played as a starter) hes not going to be a starter, and can fill the role on a needs be basis and hopefully can play ST. Personally, he is about as good at the safety position as Campbell is tossing the rock. Yes, i did just say that. No teams would want Campbell either if he was a late rd qb or UDFA. And i can make as many excuses for Doughty playing bad as some have given Cambell. ***I will qualify that of course i hope i am dead wrong and Campbell is our Hall of Fame QB that will lead us to multiple championships, but my opinion is based off of what i have watched.****

[Keino]

ehh, his signing really doesnt matter(not much money and has played as a starter) hes not going to be a starter, and can fill the role on a needs be basis and hopefully can play ST. Personally, he is about as good at the safety position as Campbell is tossing the rock. Yes, i did just say that. No teams would want Campbell either if he was a late rd qb or UDFA. And i can make as many excuses for Doughty playing bad as some have given Cambell.

This post is so absurd that it doesn't even deserve a response other than to say that it is absurd.

[CNYSkinFan]

You mean the guy for the Bears who caught 51 passes last year and scored 3 receiving TDs and was previously the most feared return man in the league?

Yea I see your point. And by that I mean I don't think you really have a point. Hester was drafted as a CB who had the ability to play a number of positions. Now he is a WR who posted Randle-El type numbers last year......
I wonder if we could trade reed doughty for devin hester straight up or would the bears have to give up a draft pick? :)

[skin4ever]

This post is so absurd that it doesn't even deserve a response other than to say that it is absurd.

ahhh. come on. You really honestly believe that Campbell would be a valuable commodity if he entered the NFL the same route as Doughty(given Campbells play to this point). Even given the fact that Campbell was drafted in the first rd, I would bet they couldnt trade him away for a first day pick straight up!! And what if the skins cut campbell or let him walk, what kind of contract would he pick up? Probably one similar to other Backups, with additional incentive clauses and such, just in case he beats out their other QB's for the starting job.

And to me, for a QB to be worth so little, means he really isnt that good and especially means that he PROBABLY will not be a consistent elite or pretty damn good Qb.

But you are right this was a thread about Reed, who will be a non-starting Safety, running Special teams exclusively, or be cut in the preseason. IF only Campbell could tackle.JK.

[CNYSkinFan]

ehh, his signing really doesnt matter(not much money and has played as a starter) hes not going to be a starter, and can fill the role on a needs be basis and hopefully can play ST. Personally, he is about as good at the safety position as Campbell is tossing the rock. Yes, i did just say that. No teams would want Campbell either if he was a late rd qb or UDFA. And i can make as many excuses for Doughty playing bad as some have given Cambell. ***I will qualify that of course i hope i am dead wrong and Campbell is our Hall of Fame QB that will lead us to multiple championships, but my opinion is based off of what i have watched.****
except that Campbell has shown flashes of at the least average play and yes he would be valued as a backup among many teams because he is young, can run, and can start. Doughty is definitely not of interest anywhere and the only flashes asociated with doughty is that oif the oppositions scoreboard.

[akhhorus]

I think we've found a new member for the Legion of Awesome.

[CNYSkinFan]

ahhh. come on. You really honestly believe that Campbell would be a valuable commodity if he entered the NFL the same route as Doughty(given Campbells play to this point). Even given the fact that Campbell was drafted in the first rd, I would bet they couldnt trade him away for a first day pick straight up!! And what if the skins cut campbell or let him walk, what kind of contract would he pick up? Probably one similar to other Backups, with additional incentive clauses and such, just in case he beats out their other QB's for the starting job.

And to me, for a QB to be worth so little, means he really isnt that good and especially means that he PROBABLY will not be a consistent elite or pretty damn good Qb.

But you are right this was a thread about Reed, who will be a non-starting Safety, running Special teams exclusively, or be cut in the preseason. IF only Campbell could tackle.JK.
the point being Campbell WOULD elicit offers from other teams, not be forced to resign a true minimum contract with the skins because no one else wanted him at all.

[CNYSkinFan]

I think we've found a new member for the Legion of Awesome.
I nominated him at the inception and BnG said he would be part of the first class.

[skin4ever]

except that Campbell has shown flashes of at the least average play and yes he would be valued as a backup among many teams because he is young, can run, and can start. Doughty is definitely not of interest anywhere and the only flashes asociated with doughty is that oif the oppositions scoreboard.

LMAO.

[skin4ever]

the point being Campbell WOULD elicit offers from other teams, not be forced to resign a true minimum contract with the skins because no one else wanted him at all.

I see your point. Campbell would elicit offers, but its depressing when i think of what kind of offers they would be, especially for our current STARTING QB, at least for the offers i believe would be extended.

[Keino]

I see your point. Campbell would elicit offers, but its depressing when i think of what kind of offers they would be, especially for our current STARTING QB, at least for the offers i believe would be extended.

Low offers are much higher than NO OFFERS. You are kidding yourself if you think that JC as an UFA today wouldn't garner interest. This is why I said your first post was absurd....

[firehawk157]

Based on what? We didn't tender him and he said he was talking to other teams.
Based on this entry (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/doughtys_agent_says_skins_stil.html) I saw 4 days prior to free agency. It seems to me that just didn't want to pay the full tender amount so they just waited until afterwards and extended him a contract when things settled down in FA. They knew he wasn't going to go in the first tier of free agency so they just waited on it.

[firehawk157]

You mean the guy for the Bears who caught 51 passes last year and scored 3 receiving TDs and was previously the most feared return man in the league?

Yea I see your point. And by that I mean I don't think you really have a point. Hester was drafted as a CB who had the ability to play a number of positions. Now he is a WR who posted Randle-El type numbers last year......
You said something stupid and I called you on it. Yes, you should devote a couple of rosters spot for guys who are STs only. Joshua Cribbs is another guy if Devin Hester doesn't do it for you. Either way, whether or not Reed Doughty has value at ST (or at least worthy of a roster spot), you can't just make blanket statements.

[firehawk157]

Kareem Moore plays ST (most of his tackles were on ST) and there really isn't a SS/FS distinction in this defense. Except for Doughty, who can only play one of the positions.
Yes, there is. Horton played far closer and more aggressively attacked the LOS than did Landry. Unless you REALLY want to argue that both played 20 yards back.

[akhhorus]

Based on this entry (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/doughtys_agent_says_skins_stil.html) I saw 4 days prior to free agency. It seems to me that just didn't want to pay the full tender amount so they just waited until afterwards and extended him a contract when things settled down in FA. They knew he wasn't going to go in the first tier of free agency so they just waited on it.

There's a BIG difference between that article and what you said. If anything, this would tend to indicate that the skins wanted to bring Doughty back, but wouldn't make the move until they got some more cap room(since they didn't even low tender him at 1 million dollars).

[firehawk157]

I think that the view that Doughty doesn't belong on an NFL roster is supported by the fact no other team but us discussed the possibility of his signing with them. Not One. Players who belong in the NFL generate interest when they are unrestricted Free Agents, especially when they can be had cheaply.

Not usually in the first couple of weeks of FA. That's why they are called "waves" of free agency. If we had no interest in Doughty, I think we probably would have waited post draft, but we intended to re-sign him the entire time. He and us knew that he wasn't going to get much more than $500k and his best chance of sticking on a roster is with the only system he knows. So it makes sense for both sides.

And Yes, his signing is in lieu of addressing pressing needs. Unless you are aware of the NFL lifting its maximum roster rule, then his signing comes at the expense of an available roster spot. A roster spot that should be used to address a greater need. That there is no negative cap consequence stemming from his release is not really material to that point.

Yes, it most decidely is. Jesus, how hard is this to understand? If you (thank God since you have no idea how simple roster management works) suddenly became GM of the Redskins, Doughty's signing would not prevent you in any way from signing anybody at any time. If we are at 80 players (the roster limit) and suddenly want to sign anybody else, we just release Doughty and sign the other guy. We regain the roster spot and all of cap space instantaneously. In what way does this prohibit us from doing ANYTHING?

You want to trade for Ed Reed and we're short $499,999 in cap space? Well, just cut Doughty. If Jesus returns and wants to play safety for the Redskins and we need the roster spot? Just cut Doughty.

Honestly, unless you can come up with a scenario in which Doughty's signing prevents us from doing anything as a team, you can expect me to ignore all further points made by you in regards to this signing because it's obvious you bear some bizarre and frankly freaky grudge against the guy.

[Keino]

You said something stupid and I called you on it. Yes, you should devote a couple of rosters spot for guys who are STs only. Joshua Cribbs is another guy if Devin Hester doesn't do it for you. Either way, whether or not Reed Doughty has value at ST (or at least worthy of a roster spot), you can't just make blanket statements.

Actually, you look even more stupid because you didn't call me on anything stupid. Cribbs is another player that gets significant reps at his regular position (WR...played QB in College). Most teams don't carry "Special Teams" only guys and the guys that do play Special Teams only are either not brought back for a second contract or they get taken out of that category and become contributors at their main position while also helping on Teams. The Hester analogy to Reed or Rock is moronic as is your entire argument. Try addressing something I actually wrote.

[firehawk157]

There's a BIG difference between that article and what you said. If anything, this would tend to indicate that the skins wanted to bring Doughty back, but wouldn't make the move until they got some more cap room(since they didn't even low tender him at 1 million dollars).
That has nothing to do with it as 500k is peanuts in regards to the cap (1/254th of the cap space). That's like saying you burnt down the bank to get the nickels. We didn't want to overpay or guarantee anything to Doughty so we extended an offer for less than the tender amount. Has absolutely nothing to do with any release.

[Keino]

Not usually in the first couple of weeks of FA. That's why they are called "waves" of free agency. If we had no interest in Doughty, I think we probably would have waited post draft, but we intended to re-sign him the entire time. He and us knew that he wasn't going to get much more than $500k and his best chance of sticking on a roster is with the only system he knows. So it makes sense for both sides.



Yes, it most decidely is. Jesus, how hard is this to understand? If you (thank God since you have no idea how simple roster management works) suddenly became GM of the Redskins, Doughty's signing would not prevent you in any way from signing anybody at any time. If we are at 80 players (the roster limit) and suddenly want to sign anybody else, we just release Doughty and sign the other guy. We regain the roster spot and all of cap space instantaneously. In what way does this prohibit us from doing ANYTHING?

You want to trade for Ed Reed and we're short $499,999 in cap space? Well, just cut Doughty. If Jesus returns and wants to play safety for the Redskins and we need the roster spot? Just cut Doughty.

Honestly, unless you can come up with a scenario in which Doughty's signing prevents us from doing anything as a team, you can expect me to ignore all further points made by you in regards to this signing because it's obvious you bear some bizarre and frankly freaky grudge against the guy.


Again, Try actually reading and addressing what I actually wrote before making assessments about my understanding or lack thereof of Roster Management.

At this point, Doughty is taking a rosters space that he doesn't deserve. In order to sign a player at one of 3 need positions, we would have to free up roster space. Making the signing a pointless endeavor given all you and others have argued as to why it makes sense....

[firehawk157]

Actually, you look even more stupid because you didn't call me on anything stupid. Cribbs is another player that gets significant reps at his regular position (WR...played QB in College). Most teams don't carry "Special Teams" only guys and the guys that do play Special Teams only are either not brought back for a second contract or they get taken out of that category and become contributors at their main position while also helping on Teams. The Hester analogy to Reed or Rock is moronic as is your entire argument. Try addressing something I actually wrote.
Reference post above yours. Until you can understand basic roster management, you have no credibility in my eyes.

[akhhorus]

That has nothing to do with it as 500k is peanuts in regards to the cap (1/254th of the cap space). That's like saying you burnt down the bank to get the nickels. We didn't want to overpay or guarantee anything to Doughty so we extended an offer for less than the tender amount. Has absolutely nothing to do with any release.

You can believe that all you want. If that was the case, we would have signed him to the contract he got(or at least made him an offer along those lines) long before we released Taylor. We didn't.

[firehawk157]

Again, Try actually reading and addressing what I actually wrote before making assessments about my understanding or lack thereof of Roster Management.

At this point, Doughty is taking a rosters space that he doesn't deserve. In order to sign a player at one of 3 need positions, we would have to free up roster space. Making the signing a pointless endeavor given all you and others have argued as to why it makes sense....
As of right now, we have AMPLE roster positions and if we approach the limit and want to sign somebody else, we cut him. Again, you do know that we didn't guarantee Doughty a roster spot, correct?

[akhhorus]

Reference post above yours. Until you can understand basic roster management, you have no credibility in my eyes.

And you're trying to compare Reed Doughty to special team specialists who are very good at their jobs(along with providing something on another side of the ball). Outside of your opinion, who says Reed is a great special teamer worthy of signing? And I can show examples of teams signing special teams specialists to small(but more substantial) contracts.

[firehawk157]

You can believe that all you want. If that was the case, we would have signed him to the contract he got(or at least made him an offer along those lines) long before we released Taylor. We didn't.
Unless you have something resembling evidence that an offer in principle wasn't extended prior to the release of Taylor and Doughty just didn't wait to sign it (much like Kendall has an offer), it's all speculation. Obviously, his agent had at least something resembling an offer because he was relatively confident Doughty was going to return.

And I guarantee you the FO didn't say, let's cut a DE that costs $8.5M in cap room so we can re-sign a S that runs $500K. To make that assertion is absurd.

[firehawk157]

And you're trying to compare Reed Doughty to special team specialists who are very good at their jobs(along with providing something on another side of the ball). Outside of your opinion, who says Reed is a great special teamer worthy of signing? And I can show examples of teams signing special teams specialists to small(but more substantial) contracts.
It's subjective and again, I missed the part where he's guaranteed a spot on the final roster or camp roster.

[akhhorus]

Unless you have something resembling evidence that an offer in principle wasn't extended prior to the release of Taylor and Doughty just didn't wait to sign it (much like Kendall has an offer), it's all speculation. Obviously, his agent had at least something resembling an offer because he was relatively confident Doughty was going to return.

No, you need to provide more than speculation. You're making the assertion. We know that the skins refused to tender him, we also know that his agent thought he'd be back. If you're right, they would have signed him, then worried about cap room(especially since he got no guaranteed money). If I'm right, they were waiting for more room.

And I guarantee you the FO didn't say, let's cut a DE that costs $8.5M in cap room so we can re-sign a S that runs $500K. To make that assertion is absurd.

When did I ever say that they cut Taylor just for Doughty? They cut him to pay for offers to Wynn/Daniels, Washington, Fincher, Doughty and God knows what other losers and has-beens.

[BurgundyNGold]

Based on this entry (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/doughtys_agent_says_skins_stil.html) I saw 4 days prior to free agency. It seems to me that just didn't want to pay the full tender amount so they just waited until afterwards and extended him a contract when things settled down in FA. They knew he wasn't going to go in the first tier of free agency so they just waited on it.
Seriously, you're quoting the JLC blog? At least 2/3 of the stuff reported before the fact on that blog ends up being wrong because he reports his "gut feeling" on stuff. And when is comes to certain players -- like Springs and Doughty -- JLC should just change his name to Fluffer.

[akhhorus]

It's subjective and again, I missed the part where he's guaranteed a spot on the final roster or camp roster.

That has nothing to do with your initial point. Who exactly believes he's this good ST player? That was your latest justification for signing him, right?

[BurgundyNGold]

Yes, there is. Horton played far closer and more aggressively attacked the LOS than did Landry. Unless you REALLY want to argue that both played 20 yards back.
That's because Blache employed a Cover 1 for 70% or more of the Redskins defensive plays last year. Both Blache and Williams before him said that they consider their S to be interchangeable and that the system does not distinguish one from the other. Granted, Horton played more up on the LOS last year but that's not because he can't play in coverage, it's because Blache employed a Cover 1 that put Horton in or around the box more often than not.

Doughty cannot play FS because he has no speed, anticipates poorly and takes bad angles. He sucks as a SS because he has no pursuit speed, anticipates poorly, takes bad angles and has problems wrapping up half the time. Finally, the same reasons that he is not a good FS/SS are the the same reasons that he is no better than the 4th or 5th best ST player on the Redskins squad on any given ST play.

He brings nothing except for a heartstrings opportunity for journalists and people who take solace in having mediocre team with good people taking up roster spots that they don't deserve based on merit.

[firehawk157]

No, you need to provide more than speculation. You're making the assertion. We know that the skins refused to tender him, we also know that his agent thought he'd be back. If you're right, they would have signed him, then worried about cap room(especially since he got no guaranteed money). If I'm right, they were waiting for more room.

I did. The fact his agent knew he'd be back with the Skins says that he at least had an inkling of what kind of contract he was going to get. As to why it took him so long to sign, that really is speculation. It's taking Daniels a long time and I'd bet scotch to tequila that he either plays for us or sits at home this season.

When did I ever say that they cut Taylor just for Doughty? They cut him to pay for offers to Wynn/Daniels, Washington, Fincher, Doughty and God knows what other losers and has-beens.

I don't mind Fincher and Doughty as they are both young and will work hard. Washington, Wynn and Daniels, eh not so much. They cut Taylor so they had flexibility with their roster decisions. Whether or not that means they sign talent and not has-beens remains to be seen. If you disagree with the cutting of Taylor, discuss it in that thread. The point is it wasn't for Doughty as there were 100 other ways to create the cap space if they wanted to.

Seriously, you're quoting the JLC blog? At least 2/3 of the stuff reported before the fact on that blog ends up being wrong because he reports his "gut feeling" on stuff. And when is comes to certain players -- like Springs and Doughty -- JLC should just change his name to Fluffer.

JLC did quote his agent directly numerous times. Unless journalistic integrity has completely left the WaPo, I trust he actually said that (and JLC would essentially be risking his job for what was pretty much a non-story).

That has nothing to do with your initial point. Who exactly believes he's this good ST player? That was your latest justification for signing him, right?

Decent, he's a decent ST player. Worth a shot at the roster. Even if we KNOW for a certainity he'll not make the roster, he still will keep Horton and Landry off the field in the preseason (keeping them relatively fresh). I guarantee you there will be worse players in camp than Doughty.

[firehawk157]

That's because Blache employed a Cover 1 for 70% or more of the Redskins defensive plays last year. Both Blache and Williams before him said that they consider their S to be interchangeable and that the system does not distinguish one from the other. Granted, Horton played more up on the LOS last year but that's not because he can't play in coverage, it's because Blache employed a Cover 1 that put Horton in or around the box more often than not.

You just completely negated your point. In a cover-1, the safeties are not interchangeable. Horton could not have played Landry's role (Landry could have played Horton's but that's because he has far more talent).

Doughty cannot play FS because he has no speed, anticipates poorly and takes bad angles. He sucks as a SS because he has no pursuit speed, anticipates poorly, takes bad angles and has problems wrapping up half the time. Finally, the same reasons that he is not a good FS/SS are the the same reasons that he is no better than the 4th or 5th best ST player on the Redskins squad on any given ST play.

I don't care whether or not he makes the active roster or not, to be against the move is just an excuse for whining.

He brings nothing except for a heartstrings opportunity for journalists and people who take solace in having mediocre team with good people taking up roster spots that they don't deserve based on merit.

Again, point to me where he's guaranteed a spot? And to say that the Skins want to help out DC reporters by giving them easy stories to write is borderline retarded/insane.

[BurgundyNGold]

You just completely negated your point. In a cover-1, the safeties are not interchangeable. Horton could not have played Landry's role (Landry could have played Horton's but that's because he has far more talent).
I did not negate anything. The *system* says there are no such thing as a SS or a FS. The *coaches* say there are no such thing as a SS or a FS. Just because the coach decides to play a scheme that puts one S up and one back does not mean that one guy is now a FS and another is a SS on the roster. When Blache plays Cover 2, does that mean that Horton is now a FS? When they play the Cobra package, does that mean that we're playing 3 FS?

I don't care whether or not he makes the active roster or not, to be against the move is just an excuse for whining.
To be against the move is to be against losing and being lazy. You use the offseason to upgrade. There were players who were upgrades that are available at or near the vet minimum. Noting that the FO failed to purse them is not "whining", it's not accepting complacency and ineptitude.

Again, point to me where he's guaranteed a spot?
It's more that he's blocking the FO actually filling a S spot by virtue of Doughty taking up that spot. If they resign, as well, the same would go for Daniels, Wynn, Washington, et al.

And to say that the Skins want to help out DC reporters by giving them easy stories to write is borderline retarded/insane.
Who said the Redskins did that? Not me. There's not even an implication that can be drawn from what I said. Keep your eye on the ball. What I said was that Doughty sucks and the only people who prefer to see him here over better players are those more interested in a human interest story than a winning team.

[BurgundyNGold]

JLC did quote his agent directly numerous times. Unless journalistic integrity has completely left the WaPo, I trust he actually said that (and JLC would essentially be risking his job for what was pretty much a non-story).

Quoting someone's agent or press agent means very little. They're all full of crap. Or don't you remember this guy, lol?

http://ballufeist.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/comical_ali.jpg

[akhhorus]

I did. The fact his agent knew he'd be back with the Skins says that he at least had an inkling of what kind of contract he was going to get. As to why it took him so long to sign, that really is speculation. It's taking Daniels a long time and I'd bet scotch to tequila that he either plays for us or sits at home this season.


You're reading way too much into a quote to try and ram a circle into a square peg.

I don't mind Fincher and Doughty as they are both young and will work hard. Washington, Wynn and Daniels, eh not so much. They cut Taylor so they had flexibility with their roster decisions. Whether or not that means they sign talent and not has-beens remains to be seen. If you disagree with the cutting of Taylor, discuss it in that thread. The point is it wasn't for Doughty as there were 100 other ways to create the cap space if they wanted to.

You're purposefully ignoring my point to beat the drum for Doughty. To get us back on track: you(or Skins7ny) wanted to claim that Doughty had a lot of respect in the locker room as another useless point to justify bringing him back. My point was that cutting a clearly talented player for what is clear as day now on a hypocritical premise to bring back losers like Daniels, Wynn, Washington, Doughty etc is a quick way to lose respect in the locker room.


Decent, he's a decent ST player. Worth a shot at the roster. Even if we KNOW for a certainity he'll not make the roster, he still will keep Horton and Landry off the field in the preseason (keeping them relatively fresh). I guarantee you there will be worse players in camp than Doughty.

So, that justifies bringing in a clearly useless player? How about using that cap room and roster spot for someone with potential, either on defense or special teams, because Doughty has none.

[firehawk157]

I did not negate anything. The *system* says there are no such thing as a SS or a FS. The *coaches* say there are no such thing as a SS or a FS. Just because the coach decides to play a scheme that puts one S up and one back does not mean that one guy is now a FS and another is a SS on the roster. When Blache plays Cover 2, does that mean that Horton is now a FS? When they play the Cobra package, does that mean that we're playing 3 FS?

Regardless of what Blanche has said (and I have never heard that, if you have a link, great) or what you think the system is (unless we have some textbook of how to run a cover-1 that Blanche uses and you got a hold of), the roles of Horton (who is typically referred to as a SS and used traditionally as a SS) and Landry are vastly different. Landry guards the deep pass and Horton plays the LOS taking away the short zones, playing the run more actively and blitzing more often.

Either way, your arguing over semantics bores me as it's obvious that we used Horton like a traditional SS more often than not, regardless of the way you want to label him. SS don't exclusively play short zones and the run. That was about the weak.


To be against the move is to be against losing and being lazy. You use the offseason to upgrade. There were players who were upgrades that are available at or near the vet minimum. Noting that the FO failed to purse them is not "whining", it's not accepting complacency and ineptitude.

So are you going to whine as much when we sign obvious camp fodder because there's better out there for near the vet min? Unless you plan on starting two threads for every roster spot who might not make it or isn't as talented as a FA vet out there, you are just whining.


It's more that he's blocking the FO actually filling a S spot by virtue of Doughty taking up that spot. If they resign, as well, the same would go for Daniels, Wynn, Washington, et al.

If we decide to sign somebody else, we just cut Doughty. He's not blocking anything because he is the ultimate in expendable. He's like finding an unscratched $1 lotto ticket in the ground and then complaining that the max payout is only $100. Might as well scratch it even if it won't change your financial future because it costs nothing.


Who said the Redskins did that? Not me. There's not even an implication that can be drawn from what I said. Keep your eye on the ball. What I said was that Doughty sucks and the only people who prefer to see him here over better players are those more interested in a human interest story than a winning team.

There's only two implications of what you said. Either the Redskins themselves (not the fanbase since the fanbase does not make any football decision) want to make life easier for the DC reporters OR they want the good press. The first is laughable, the second can be achieved by letting him work out for a bit with the team (long enough for the Post to write a sob story in the middle of the deadest part of the offseason) and cutting him when something better comes along. Neither path indicates he's going to see the final 53 or even the camp roster and again, his presence at this point of the offseason does not preclude us in the slightest from becoming a winning team.

[firehawk157]

Quoting someone's agent or press agent means very little. They're all full of crap. Or don't you remember this guy, lol?

http://ballufeist.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/comical_ali.jpg
I provided a source, you have provided nothing. I'm sorry I haven't found any quotes from Vinny himself. I'll ask next time I hear him on radio.

[firehawk157]

You're reading way too much into a quote to try and ram a circle into a square peg.

Given it's the only quote on the subject, what else do we have to go by? All of your speculation is just as good as my speculation which is as good as anybody else's. Just because you think that one way is the way things are done doesn't make it so (if you have experience dealing with bottom tier players in a front office role, be sure to disclose it)



You're purposefully ignoring my point to beat the drum for Doughty. To get us back on track: you(or Skins7ny) wanted to claim that Doughty had a lot of respect in the locker room as another useless point to justify bringing him back. My point was that cutting a clearly talented player for what is clear as day now on a hypocritical premise to bring back losers like Daniels, Wynn, Washington, Doughty etc is a quick way to lose respect in the locker room.

You can make the justification for Daniels, Wynn and Washington is justified as there was literally NO talk about bringing them back until Taylor was released. However, there was talk about Doughty coming back WAY before anybody was signed (including Haynesworth).



So, that justifies bringing in a clearly useless player? How about using that cap room and roster spot for someone with potential, either on defense or special teams, because Doughty has none.

He's not without use, and that's really little of you to say. He did have to hold down the fort at SS when Taylor died and did a rather admirable job given we played some solid D in that time. Maybe he was riding high on emotion and it is spent or maybe he got lucky. IF, again, IF such a player comes along at the right price, I'll be all for cutting Doughty to get him. However, I don't know what the current FAs are requesting so having Doughty be a guy who may or may not make camp is fine with me.

[akhhorus]

Given it's the only quote on the subject, what else do we have to go by? All of your speculation is just as good as my speculation which is as good as anybody else's. Just because you think that one way is the way things are done doesn't make it so (if you have experience dealing with bottom tier players in a front office role, be sure to disclose it)


Except you're trying to assert something not in the record. If we're both speculating, then which is more plausible. And thats the "speculation" that we were waiting for cap room.

You can make the justification for Daniels, Wynn and Washington is justified as there was literally NO talk about bringing them back until Taylor was released. However, there was talk about Doughty coming back WAY before anybody was signed (including Haynesworth).

Except that you don't have anything close to a line or quote that Reed would be coming back. You have his agent trying to drum up interest at best.

He's not without use, and that's really little of you to say. He did have to hold down the fort at SS when Taylor died and did a rather admirable job given we played some solid D in that time.

We played a defense that he could theoretically contribute in, and he really wasn't good in 2007 even filling in for Taylor. He was pretty bad playing in the cover-1 hybrid. We now play a defense that requires the strong safety to cover and tackle. Doughty can do neither.

Maybe he was riding high on emotion and it is spent or maybe he got lucky. IF, again, IF such a player comes along at the right price, I'll be all for cutting Doughty to get him. However, I don't know what the current FAs are requesting so having Doughty be a guy who may or may not make camp is fine with me.

I can find 10 players right now at DB I'd rather have than Doughty. Probably another 20 if we're looking at every position. Do you want me to list them? And I'd rather have a UDFA in that spot than a player we know sucks.

[firehawk157]

Except you're trying to assert something not in the record. If we're both speculating, then which is more plausible. And thats the "speculation" that we were waiting for cap room.

Except that you don't have anything close to a line or quote that Reed would be coming back. You have his agent trying to drum up interest at best.

Of course the agent was trying to drum up interest but I think he was resigned that Doughty was going re-sign. His tone was very defeated if he thought the chance of the Skins not re-signing him was good. As for my personal opinion, I think the agent let Doughty know he was pretty sure that it came down to the Skins or the complete unknown in which he shouldn't expect any serious offers until after the draft, if then. Of course, the agent was just doing his job and running the beach with a metal detector to see if anything beeped, but he didn't actually think he'll find anything more than just some pocket change. Doughty's not stupid and likely neither is his agent so they both probably knew the score.


We played a defense that he could theoretically contribute in, and he really wasn't good in 2007 even filling in for Taylor. He was pretty bad playing in the cover-1 hybrid. We now play a defense that requires the strong safety to cover and tackle. Doughty can do neither.

No, he wasn't but he held down the fort. He switched systems to an extent when operating under Blanche (Lord knows this excuse works for Campbell enough) and didn't really get enough time on the field to make a judgment on him in the way some people have.

I can find 10 players right now at DB I'd rather have than Doughty. Probably another 20 if we're looking at every position. Do you want me to list them? And I'd rather have a UDFA in that spot than a player we know sucks.

Then if we decide those players are better for the Skins, we cut Doughty. If you think that we won't pursue them because we have Doughty, then it isn't Doughty's signing that you are upset with but rather the fact that you think we are done making moves towards safety (which isn't necessarily true).

[akhhorus]

Of course the agent was trying to drum up interest but I think he was resigned that Doughty was going re-sign. His tone was very defeated if he thought the chance of the Skins not re-signing him was good. As for my personal opinion, I think the agent let Doughty know he was pretty sure that it came down to the Skins or the complete unknown in which he shouldn't expect any serious offers until after the draft, if then. Of course, the agent was just doing his job and running the beach with a metal detector to see if anything beeped, but he didn't actually think he'll find anything more than just some pocket change. Doughty's not stupid and likely neither is his agent so they both probably knew the score.


*rubs my temples* please stop trying to come up with some long story to justify your position.

No, he wasn't but he held down the fort. He switched systems to an extent when operating under Blanche (Lord knows this excuse works for Campbell enough) and didn't really get enough time on the field to make a judgment on him in the way some people have.


Except for his time on the field, when he couldn't cover a WR with broken legs or a wheelchair or tackle Rbs smaller than him. We've seen what he is and what he's not. He has no business playing in the NFL.

Then if we decide those players are better for the Skins, we cut Doughty. If you think that we won't pursue them because we have Doughty, then it isn't Doughty's signing that you are upset with but rather the fact that you think we are done making moves towards safety (which isn't necessarily true).

This isn't a justification to sign Doughty. You don't sign some terrible player to a small deal just to hold a place in a roster in case you find someone better, you sign the better player.

[Keino]

Reference post above yours. Until you can understand basic roster management, you have no credibility in my eyes.

I understand basic roster management. Bringing back players who are incompetent is not roster management. Especially when we have 3 players at the position who are either in their 3rd or 2nd year.

Honestly, I don't want credibility in the eyes of anyone moronic enough to compare Devin Hester, the most dangerous return man (who by the way was taken off of returns so as not to risk him being unavailable on Offense) and Joshua Cribbs, another dangerous return man who contributes to the offense to Reed Doughty, who has never returned a kick, and never led or even been 2nd on our team in special teams tackling. Frankly, having no credibility with someone who would advance these notions is a compliment, especially considering that there are people on this thread who have credibility who are supporting my position.

Again...Try addressing things I have written. I write a point, you respond with some diatribe about Keith Davis, whom I have never advocated signing. We understand that there is no cap charge to release him. SO WHAT? He doesn't make our team better, so why sign him in the first place?

[Keino]

It's subjective and again, I missed the part where he's guaranteed a spot on the final roster or camp roster.


Funny. The players you are comparing him to are guaranteed roster spots on their teams. I wonder why that is? Could it be that they contribute in other areas of the team? That couldn't possibly be it....

[BurgundyNGold]

Regardless of what Blanche has said (and I have never heard that, if you have a link, great) or what you think the system is (unless we have some textbook of how to run a cover-1 that Blanche uses and you got a hold of), the roles of Horton (who is typically referred to as a SS and used traditionally as a SS) and Landry are vastly different. Landry guards the deep pass and Horton plays the LOS taking away the short zones, playing the run more actively and blitzing more often.
Follow the team more closely and you'd know these things. You'd also know that Doughty is not an especially good ST player.

Either way, your arguing over semantics bores me as it's obvious that we used Horton like a traditional SS more often than not, regardless of the way you want to label him. SS don't exclusively play short zones and the run. That was about the weak.
You're pretty indignant for someone who apparently knows so little about this team.

So are you going to whine as much when we sign obvious camp fodder because there's better out there for near the vet min? Unless you plan on starting two threads for every roster spot who might not make it or isn't as talented as a FA vet out there, you are just whining.
So, opinions that are contrary to your FO sycophantism are whining? Why not just go post over ES and high five the rest of the lemmings after that awesome 8-8 season we just finished?

And Doughty is not obvious camp fodder because he's made the team the last 2 years when he should have been nothing more than camp fodder. Correction: He's camp fodder that for some inexplicable reason keeps making the team. Like Ade Jimoh.

If we decide to sign somebody else, we just cut Doughty. He's not blocking anything because he is the ultimate in expendable. He's like finding an unscratched $1 lotto ticket in the ground and then complaining that the max payout is only $100. Might as well scratch it even if it won't change your financial future because it costs nothing.
I don't doubt the financials of your argument, I doubt the soundness of the policy. Apparently, Doughty is Plan A for the backup S slot for this FO. Similarly, apparently Damiels is Plan A to replace JT with Wynn being Plan B.

The problem is that other players should have been Plan A. These scrubs should have been Plan C. They weren't going anywhere and they're sure not providing upgrades to a team that finished 2-6.

There's only two implications of what you said. Either the Redskins themselves (not the fanbase since the fanbase does not make any football decision) want to make life easier for the DC reporters
Wrong

OR they want the good press.
Also wrong. Your lack of depth is amazing.

My implication, and I'll spell it out for you, is that the only people who want Doughty around (outside of the organization) are the ones who want a "good guy" rather than the "best player" in the roster spot. That does not necessarily have anything to do with the FO decision to sign him (I can't prove that so I can't really assert it) and this was not my implication.

JLC wants Doughty around, not because he's a good player but because he's a good person and a good story. So, when it comes to JLC, I really don't give 2 squirts of piss what his opinion is on Doughty.

The first is laughable, the second can be achieved by letting him work out for a bit with the team (long enough for the Post to write a sob story in the middle of the deadest part of the offseason) and cutting him when something better comes along. Neither path indicates he's going to see the final 53 or even the camp roster and again, his presence at this point of the offseason does not preclude us in the slightest from becoming a winning team.
You wouldn't think that Doughty would have made the team last year either. Or that Matt Sinclair (gack) would. Or that Jason Fabini would. But they do and they provide the team next to nothing. It's better just to cut these clowns and be done with them -- even if it doesn't cost us anything to cut them in August. Better to not have them muddying up the water.

[firehawk157]

*rubs my temples* please stop trying to come up with some long story to justify your position.

Sometimes, the truth is longer than a sentence or two. I don’t really care much about Doughty as I expect him to be a bit player in ST and not see the field barring injury on the defense. If we sign somebody else, I’m fine with that. If we don’t, that’s fine too. We could do worse than Doughty (Tryon for example) in our secondary.

Except for his time on the field, when he couldn't cover a WR with broken legs or a wheelchair or tackle Rbs smaller than him. We've seen what he is and what he's not. He has no business playing in the NFL.

Your opinion. There are those in this thread that disagree and those that agree. Don’t state your opinion as fact though (especially when he is STILL playing in the NFL).

This isn't a justification to sign Doughty. You don't sign some terrible player to a small deal just to hold a place in a roster in case you find someone better, you sign the better player.

Who do you want to sign?

I understand basic roster management. Bringing back players who are incompetent is not roster management. Especially when we have 3 players at the position who are either in their 3rd or 2nd year.

Fine, what are the other options? Mike Green? What the hell has he done? Keith Davis (character concerns and believes he is a starting player)?

Honestly, I don't want credibility in the eyes of anyone moronic enough to compare Devin Hester, the most dangerous return man (who by the way was taken off of returns so as not to risk him being unavailable on Offense) and Joshua Cribbs, another dangerous return man who contributes to the offense to Reed Doughty, who has never returned a kick, and never led or even been 2nd on our team in special teams tackling. Frankly, having no credibility with someone who would advance these notions is a compliment, especially considering that there are people on this thread who have credibility who are supporting my position.

I didn’t compare Reed Doughty to Devin Hester, try addressing what I actually said. You said you don’t devote a spot to somebody who is exclusively STs (and that’s minus the obvious STs guys like LS, P and K). Obviously, in year 1, the Bears did with Devin Hester to great effect. We did so for Brian Mitchell back in the day (he was a horrible RB).

Great, find your sense of belonging by agreeing with everybody else. Good job. BTW, there are a decent number of people that agree with me (decent ST guy, can start in a pinch).

Again...Try addressing things I have written. I write a point, you respond with some diatribe about Keith Davis, whom I have never advocated signing. We understand that there is no cap charge to release him. SO WHAT? He doesn't make our team better, so why sign him in the first place?

Since Keith Davis doesn’t do it for you (and I referenced him since the basis of this thread was based on a “sign Keith Davis instead of Reed Doughty thread”), name somebody else. We need a 4th safety (actually we need about 5 or 6 going into camp)

Funny. The players you are comparing him to are guaranteed roster spots on their teams. I wonder why that is? Could it be that they contribute in other areas of the team? That couldn't possibly be it....

Funny, Akh said he could find some examples of teams signing STs only guys. So I guess he doesn’t support your position fully.

Follow the team more closely and you'd know these things. You'd also know that Doughty is not an especially good ST player.

You're pretty indignant for someone who apparently knows so little about this team.

Your posts are pretty stupid for somebody who claims to know so much. I never said Doughty was the penultimate STs player. I said decent. He fills a role and he’s really cheap to keep around.


So, opinions that are contrary to your FO sycophantism are whining? Why not just go post over ES and high five the rest of the lemmings after that awesome 8-8 season we just finished?

Whining about churning the bottom of the roster is whining. And there has been a lot of whining going on lately. I am hardly sycophantic of the FO as I have voiced my complaints numerous times about the FO, I just refuse to get stuck in the rut that absolutely everything they do is horrible.

And Doughty is not obvious camp fodder because he's made the team the last 2 years when he should have been nothing more than camp fodder. Correction: He's camp fodder that for some inexplicable reason keeps making the team. Like Ade Jimoh.

Then that’s on Zorn/Blanche/Danny Smith. They make the cuts.


I don't doubt the financials of your argument, I doubt the soundness of the policy. Apparently, Doughty is Plan A for the backup S slot for this FO. Similarly, apparently Damiels is Plan A to replace JT with Wynn being Plan B.

To me, that’s fine. When he had to fill in for ST (minus the Dallas game where we inexplicably asked him to guard TO as the deep safety [since you don’t like the labels FS/SS]), he did okay. We won almost every game and our defense was solid. He has holes in his game for sure as he lacks size and speed but he is one of the smarter players out there and hustles. To me, that’s fine as long as he is the last safety to come on (BTW, I don’t want to pay $800k+ for a guy like Keith Davis [still using him since he’s the only other name brought up]) and can contribute in STs. As for Wynn and Daniels, they most decidedly are here to replace JT and in that case, we are going from a clearly talented player to poor ones. I don’t believe that we released JT to bring on Doughty however for reasons I already stated.

Something else has really bothered me about the JT release. They said they wanted him to play SAM which is fine (they obviously wanted to keep the cap space). They could have cut him and let him know they wanted to bring him back (and chances are when no team would offer more than $2M/yr, he would see our offer as decent) if they just parted ways more amiably (instead of asking him to work out and then trashing him to the media afterwards). Why we go the route of scorched earth with all of our high-profile players is beyond me.

The problem is that other players should have been Plan A. These scrubs should have been Plan C. They weren't going anywhere and they're sure not providing upgrades to a team that finished 2-6.

I agree with you on Daniels and Wynn. As for Doughty, I’d rather not pay our 4th safety and STs guy (note I did not say great or stalwart or anything of that nature) more than we absolutely have to. Doughty comes at about half-price.

My implication, and I'll spell it out for you, is that the only people who want Doughty around (outside of the organization) are the ones who want a "good guy" rather than the "best player" in the roster spot. That does not necessarily have anything to do with the FO decision to sign him (I can't prove that so I can't really assert it) and this was not my implication.

That’s fine, but I missed the part where the FO did things to appease those outside the FO (unless of course you are saying that there is some outside influence). Point being, the FO decided to sign Doughty and to say he was signed for the human interest side of things means that the FO signed him for the human interest stories.

You wouldn't think that Doughty would have made the team last year either. Or that Matt Sinclair (gack) would. Or that Jason Fabini would. But they do and they provide the team next to nothing. It's better just to cut these clowns and be done with them -- even if it doesn't cost us anything to cut them in August. Better to not have them muddying up the water.

Doughty isn’t going to be the worst player on the field in training camp. We are going to have guys “muddying up the water” in camp. Whether or not he gets cut is a completely different argument and that isn’t on the FO but the coaching staff. I’m not advocating keeping him on the team after camp, rather, I’m just saying he’s not so horrible to not give him a shot at the camp roster.

[akhhorus]

Sometimes, the truth is longer than a sentence or two. I don’t really care much about Doughty as I expect him to be a bit player in ST and not see the field barring injury on the defense. If we sign somebody else, I’m fine with that. If we don’t, that’s fine too. We could do worse than Doughty (Tryon for example) in our secondary.


I'm sorry, but your bedtime story about how you think the Doughty deal went down doesn't make it so. For someone who tells me in the next paragraph not to state my opinions as fact, you should take your own advice.

Your opinion. There are those in this thread that disagree and those that agree. Don’t state your opinion as fact though (especially when he is STILL playing in the NFL).


My opinion based on his play on the field. And there is no way that a rational person could believe that Doughty can play well enough to justify a roster spot in the NFL.

Who do you want to sign?


I'd sign Bertrand Berry instead of Wynn/Doughty, at DB I would have signed Josh Bullocks(but he signed elsewhere), Mike Brown or Michael Boulware. They've at least shown that they can play in the NFL. Doughty hasn't.

Fine, what are the other options? Mike Green? What the hell has he done? Keith Davis (character concerns and believes he is a starting player)?

As compared to Doughty, they look like All pros.

[skin4ever]

Low offers are much higher than NO OFFERS. You are kidding yourself if you think that JC as an UFA today wouldn't garner interest. This is why I said your first post was absurd....

What i said was that if Campbell came into the NFL as Doughty did(late round draft pick or UDFA) and Campbell played the way he has, he wouldnt be recieving offers. But because he was a FIRST round draft pic, teams will give him an offer.

But please feel free to try and justify that there is a great difference between low offers and NO OFFERS for OUR STARTING QUARTERBACK.(of course all speculation, but its the preseason and we wont find out till next year) We arent talking about reed doughty a back up and a special teamer, this is our starting Qb. Thats the sad part.

[BurgundyNGold]

Your posts are pretty stupid for somebody who claims to know so much. I never said Doughty was the penultimate STs player. I said decent. He fills a role and he’s really cheap to keep around.
The Doughty signing -- like the Wynn (and likely Daniels and Washington) signing -- do not make us better, they keep us from getting better. That's the point I'm trying to make. You know what Doughty can do which is not only not very much, it's not enough to be serviceable. You could argue that Daniels might be serviceable but Doughty, Washington and Wynn aren't even that.

Whining about churning the bottom of the roster is whining. And there has been a lot of whining going on lately. I am hardly sycophantic of the FO as I have voiced my complaints numerous times about the FO, I just refuse to get stuck in the rut that absolutely everything they do is horrible.
You're missing the forest for the trees. The complaints about these bottom of the roster activities have very little to do with the player and everything to do with the big picture fact that our FO is lazy and incompetent. Doughty, like Ade Jimoh before him, is just a brilliantly visible example of that, hence the disbelief and anger.

And I don't think everything the FO is wrong. I liked the Haynesworth, Hall and Dockery signings. I liked the Springs cut. I give them props for those. However, when they cut Jason Taylor and then proceed to piss away that cap space on the likes of Daniels, Wynn, Washington and, yes, Doughty when we have 3 important starting roles to fill, WTF are fans supposed to do? They're setting Zorn up to fail and they're setting the fans up to have a crappy team. Should we just accept that because FO apologists belittle and mischaracterize warranted criticism as "whining"?


Then that’s on Zorn/Blanche/Danny Smith. They make the cuts.
And the resigning of crappy players is on the FO, they extend and execute contracts.

To me, that’s fine. When he had to fill in for ST (minus the Dallas game where we inexplicably asked him to guard TO as the deep safety [since you don’t like the labels FS/SS]), he did okay. We won almost every game and our defense was solid. He has holes in his game for sure as he lacks size and speed but he is one of the smarter players out there and hustles. To me, that’s fine as long as he is the last safety to come on (BTW, I don’t want to pay $800k+ for a guy like Keith Davis [still using him since he’s the only other name brought up]) and can contribute in STs. As for Wynn and Daniels, they most decidedly are here to replace JT and in that case, we are going from a clearly talented player to poor ones. I don’t believe that we released JT to bring on Doughty however for reasons I already stated.
I don't think that we released JT to bring on Doughty, specifically, as we probably would have brought back Doughty anyway. To me, the problem of not using the JT cap space to get FA starters and the problem of bringing back Doughty are independent blunders, lol.

And as for Doughty, he has played Cover 2 for us. He did so last year. The Larry Fitzgerald TD against us was caught against Doughty in a Cover 2. Doughty is really just a cheap Adam Archuleta. Same strengths, same weaknesses. You have to play him in the box because he is easily exposed as a weakness in any other alignment. Sadly, his tackling isn't sure enough for him to play in the box with any reliability. It was just a bad signing. We know what he is and it is not good enough. Better to bring on someone else for a look see.

Something else has really bothered me about the JT release. They said they wanted him to play SAM which is fine (they obviously wanted to keep the cap space). They could have cut him and let him know they wanted to bring him back (and chances are when no team would offer more than $2M/yr, he would see our offer as decent) if they just parted ways more amiably (instead of asking him to work out and then trashing him to the media afterwards). Why we go the route of scorched earth with all of our high-profile players is beyond me.
I agree 100%. I'd point out that it was yet another brilliant move by the FO but I've been falsely accused of whining enough for one day. :/

I agree with you on Daniels and Wynn. As for Doughty, I’d rather not pay our 4th safety and STs guy (note I did not say great or stalwart or anything of that nature) more than we absolutely have to. Doughty comes at about half-price.
If a microwave made in Japan costs $100 and a microwave made in China costs $50, on the surface that $50 Chinese microwave looks pretty good. Except, when it doesn't do the job and you have to replace it after a year or two, it's really not worth it at all. Plus, you've had 2 years of frustration dealing with an inadequate POS microwave. Why not just buy the better model to begin with?

That’s fine, but I missed the part where the FO did things to appease those outside the FO (unless of course you are saying that there is some outside influence). Point being, the FO decided to sign Doughty and to say he was signed for the human interest side of things means that the FO signed him for the human interest stories.
I don't know that the FO did or did not sign Doughty for the PR. That's not what I'm implying. I'm saying that anyone who wants Doughty on the team (press, fans, etc) is doing it because they think he is a good guy and a good story, not because he is a good player or that he makes the team better.

Doughty isn’t going to be the worst player on the field in training camp.
Not as long as Matt Sinclair is on the team, lol.

We are going to have guys “muddying up the water” in camp. Whether or not he gets cut is a completely different argument and that isn’t on the FO but the coaching staff. I’m not advocating keeping him on the team after camp, rather, I’m just saying he’s not so horrible to not give him a shot at the camp roster.
It is when he takes up a roster spot and cap space. It's better to bring in some other FA and UDFA safety with that cap space than to re-sign Doughty. Especially considering that, like Boschetti, he'll be sitting at home in November in case all other NFL caliber safeties get frozen in carbonite and you need someone with a pulse to fill a roster spot.

[Skins7ny]

It doesn't matter if we've cut other safeties to pay for him. We downgraded one position to help pay for losers like him(and potentially Philip Daniels, etc etc). Skins7ny's point is that he supposedly has a lot of respect in the locker room, my point is that what are you telling the locker room by bringing back a guy who can't play like him at the expense of players who can?
We haven't downgraded anything, unless you believe that Doughty is a downgrade from Mike Green as the 4th safety. I don't believe he is. We needed a 4th safety. If you want to argue Davis or Boulware ahead of Doughty, and you know that we could have gotten Davis and Boulware for $500K with no signing bonus, then that is an argument worth having. But otherwise, this boils down to an argument about whether Doughty belongs in the NFL as a backup. No one is claiming he should start.
I think that the view that Doughty doesn't belong on an NFL roster is supported by the fact no other team but us discussed the possibility of his signing with them. Not One. Players who belong in the NFL generate interest when they are unrestricted Free Agents, especially when they can be had cheaply.

And Yes, his signing is in lieu of addressing pressing needs. Unless you are aware of the NFL lifting its maximum roster rule, then his signing comes at the expense of an available roster spot. A roster spot that should be used to address a greater need. That there is no negative cap consequence stemming from his release is not really material to that point.
(1) Rock Cartwright got no offers. And then had an excellent season returning kickoffs for us. To argue that Cartwright is not an NFL player because he got no offers last year is ridiculous. Same with Doughty.
(2) Right now, I count 58 guys signed to the roster (with Suisham being the most recent). Even after we sign Wynn, Golston and Montgomery probably this week, that leaves 61 guys on our roster. We have 19 slots left, which leaves plenty of room for our draft picks, undrafted free agents (we usually sign about 10-12) and a few more veteran free agents. Doughty is not costing us a roster spot right now. Yes, he will cost us a roster spot in camp if he is still there. But he is not preventing us from signing a DE or an OT or a starting LB and bringing that player to camp.

...He's not without use, and that's really little of you to say. He did have to hold down the fort at SS when Taylor died and did a rather admirable job given we played some solid D in that time. Maybe he was riding high on emotion and it is spent or maybe he got lucky. IF, again, IF such a player comes along at the right price, I'll be all for cutting Doughty to get him. However, I don't know what the current FAs are requesting so having Doughty be a guy who may or may not make camp is fine with me.
People tend to forget or ignore this fact. People here act as if he is a total stiff, and that simply is not the case. He is never going to be an All-Pro, but he is a solid depth player who contributes on special teams. Someday, we may be in position to upgrade our 4th safety position, but we have neither the draft picks nor the cap room to do so now, and we obviously have many higher priorities. I am not complaining about this situation because I I think Doughty is a decent player and is a quality 4th safety.

[akhhorus]

We haven't downgraded anything, unless you believe that Doughty is a downgrade from Mike Green as the 4th safety. I don't believe he is. We needed a 4th safety. If you want to argue Davis or Boulware ahead of Doughty, and you know that we could have gotten Davis and Boulware for $500K with no signing bonus, then that is an argument worth having. But otherwise, this boils down to an argument about whether Doughty belongs in the NFL as a backup. No one is claiming he should start.

If the choice is:
Reed Doughty at 500k with no guaranteed money
or
Michael Boulware at 1 million with 250k guaranteed

Any competent team would have signed Boulware. Boulware has shown he can provide quality play in the NFL(albeit, he's struggled in recent years). Doughty hasn't. This argument that he'll just be depth is disingenuous at best since everyone knows that the skins play a lot of safeties through a year, and Doughty-if he's on the team-will see the field on defense. There's no point in signing a loser, even cheaply.

[firehawk157]

I'm sorry, but your bedtime story about how you think the Doughty deal went down doesn't make it so. For someone who tells me in the next paragraph not to state my opinions as fact, you should take your own advice.

I stated my opinion as my personal opinion.



My opinion based on his play on the field. And there is no way that a rational person could believe that Doughty can play well enough to justify a roster spot in the NFL.

Except he did and the only halfway decent position coach we had (Jerry Gray) saw it fit to give him serious time until his injury.



I'd sign Bertrand Berry instead of Wynn/Doughty, at DB I would have signed Josh Bullocks(but he signed elsewhere), Mike Brown or Michael Boulware. They've at least shown that they can play in the NFL. Doughty hasn't.

I agree on Berry. Neither one of those guys are that significant of an upgrade and I'm pretty sure Boulware wants a chance to start.



As compared to Doughty, they look like All pros.

Keith Davis' angles made Doughty look like a genius. He allowed, along with Ken Hamlin, those two long B-more TDs against Dallas. One was directly to his side of the field and the other was up the middle.

[akhhorus]

I stated my opinion as my personal opinion.


Except that you're trying to imply that you're interpretation of what happened is the truth without any evidence backing it up.

Except he did and the only halfway decent position coach we had (Jerry Gray) saw it fit to give him serious time until his injury.

Do yourself a favor and stop using the redskins front office or coaching staff as proof of anything competent. They've shown that they're incompetent from top to bottom. Considering that Doughty got the absolute minimum in a contract from the skins means that there was zero interest in him from other teams. And anyone who honestly watched Doughty play wouldn't be surprised. He sucks.

I agree on Berry. Neither one of those guys are that significant of an upgrade and I'm pretty sure Boulware wants a chance to start.

Anyone who can at least vaguely cover the pass is a major upgrade from Doughty. Doughty can't play the pass, play the run, blitz or create turnovers. Anyone who can do any one of those things represents a major upgrade from him.

Keith Davis' angles made Doughty look like a genius. He allowed, along with Ken Hamlin, those two long B-more TDs against Dallas. One was directly to his side of the field and the other was up the middle.

If you think Doughty is any better, you're delusional. Hamlin and Davis aren't good safeties, but they contribute something. Doughty doesn't do that. He contributes nothing.

[firehawk157]

The Doughty signing -- like the Wynn (and likely Daniels and Washington) signing -- do not make us better, they keep us from getting better. That's the point I'm trying to make. You know what Doughty can do which is not only not very much, it's not enough to be serviceable. You could argue that Daniels might be serviceable but Doughty, Washington and Wynn aren't even that.

Except that Doughty was in 2007. Sure, he struggled in 2008, but he was serviceable in 2007 and you are being disingenious to assert otherwise.


You're missing the forest for the trees. The complaints about these bottom of the roster activities have very little to do with the player and everything to do with the big picture fact that our FO is lazy and incompetent. Doughty, like Ade Jimoh before him, is just a brilliantly visible example of that, hence the disbelief and anger.

That isn't universally the case. If you think that, then that's fine but to assert that anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb, doesn't know the roster or what have you is egotistical.

And I don't think everything the FO is wrong. I liked the Haynesworth, Hall and Dockery signings. I liked the Springs cut. I give them props for those. However, when they cut Jason Taylor and then proceed to piss away that cap space on the likes of Daniels, Wynn, Washington and, yes, Doughty when we have 3 important starting roles to fill, WTF are fans supposed to do? They're setting Zorn up to fail and they're setting the fans up to have a crappy team. Should we just accept that because FO apologists belittle and mischaracterize warranted criticism as "whining"?

Should those of us who disagree with every move you criticize just accept the title of apologist (I'm sure somebody would label you an apologist for supporting one of those moves too)? They re-signed Wynn and I criticized them for it.

And the resigning of crappy players is on the FO, they extend and execute contracts.

There will be a bunch of crappy players at camp. You can't complain about every one. If Doughty makes the final 53 then you can divide the argument into two sections. If you believe he was the 4th best safety and there were no better safeties in camp, that's on the FO (assuming you think we should get somebody else). If you think a player deserved to make it over him, that's on the coaches. However, it's all hypothetical at this point since we don't know who is going to be on the camp roster or how they are going to do.


I don't think that we released JT to bring on Doughty, specifically, as we probably would have brought back Doughty anyway. To me, the problem of not using the JT cap space to get FA starters and the problem of bringing back Doughty are independent blunders, lol.

Agreed.

And as for Doughty, he has played Cover 2 for us. He did so last year. The Larry Fitzgerald TD against us was caught against Doughty in a Cover 2. Doughty is really just a cheap Adam Archuleta. Same strengths, same weaknesses. You have to play him in the box because he is easily exposed as a weakness in any other alignment. Sadly, his tackling isn't sure enough for him to play in the box with any reliability. It was just a bad signing. We know what he is and it is not good enough. Better to bring on someone else for a look see.

Are you kidding me, do you REALLY expect Doughty to cover the best WR in the league (by a fair margin)? His tackling isn't that bad. It's not to the level of Horton, but it's fair.


I agree 100%. I'd point out that it was yet another brilliant move by the FO but I've been falsely accused of whining enough for one day. :/

Stop your whining about my accusations of whining.

If a microwave made in Japan costs $100 and a microwave made in China costs $50, on the surface that $50 Chinese microwave looks pretty good. Except, when it doesn't do the job and you have to replace it after a year or two, it's really not worth it at all. Plus, you've had 2 years of frustration dealing with an inadequate POS microwave. Why not just buy the better model to begin with?

Except you can't make the argument that Doughty will only last two years or provides half the level of play as some of the other names mentioned.


I don't know that the FO did or did not sign Doughty for the PR. That's not what I'm implying. I'm saying that anyone who wants Doughty on the team (press, fans, etc) is doing it because they think he is a good guy and a good story, not because he is a good player or that he makes the team better.

Not as long as Matt Sinclair is on the team, lol.

It is when he takes up a roster spot and cap space. It's better to bring in some other FA and UDFA safety with that cap space than to re-sign Doughty. Especially considering that, like Boschetti, he'll be sitting at home in November in case all other NFL caliber safeties get frozen in carbonite and you need someone with a pulse to fill a roster spot.

I doubt any 4th safety in the league is going to appreciably make their teams better. If he's home in November, I won't bat an eye, that's fine.

[Keino]

Fine, what are the other options? Mike Green? What the hell has he done? Keith Davis (character concerns and believes he is a starting player)?

There are plenty of options out there to be had for $500K that are more talented than Doughty. That we settled on Doughty demonstrates gross laziness and gross incompetence on the part of this front Office.



I didn’t compare Reed Doughty to Devin Hester, try addressing what I actually said. You said you don’t devote a spot to somebody who is exclusively STs (and that’s minus the obvious STs guys like LS, P and K). Obviously, in year 1, the Bears did with Devin Hester to great effect. We did so for Brian Mitchell back in the day (he was a horrible RB).

Yes, that is exactly what you did. In response to my critique of the Front Office penchant for signing marginal talent at their positions because the players in question are pure special Teamers, you wrote:

The Bears drafted Devin Hester purely as a return guy. Keith Davis was the 3rd or 4th safety when Dallas signed him. Those guys were purely ST... To sign a guy just to play ST isn't dumb, it's paying attention to a facet of the game that MOST of us complain we suck at and need to upgrade.

But you are not even correct in what you are saying and are clearly not READING what I have said re: Pure Special Teamers. I will repeat: Teams don't re-sign pure special teamers that do not transition to being a contributor at their primary position, whatever that is. Hester, Cribbs and Now Mitchell, all fit that scenario. By his 3rd year in the league, Mitchell was THE 3rd down Back and a significant contributor on Offense in addition to his role on special teams. Reed Doughty has not sniffed or remotely approached the contributions of these guys on Special Teams in addition to not being able to effectively contribute at his primary position.

Read through my posts again. I have consistently made this argument re: pure special teamers and have consitently argued that we carry far too many of these types of players. Cartwright, Thrash et. al.


Great, find your sense of belonging by agreeing with everybody else. Good job. BTW, there are a decent number of people that agree with me (decent ST guy, can start in a pinch).

Yawn. What's your point? You attacked my credibility over a non-point while demonstrating that you have none, regardless of how many people agree with you (and ignoring that many more people as evidenced by the poll results agree with me).



Since Keith Davis doesn’t do it for you (and I referenced him since the basis of this thread was based on a “sign Keith Davis instead of Reed Doughty thread”), name somebody else. We need a 4th safety (actually we need about 5 or 6 going into camp)

Actually the premise of this thread is a poll evaluating the signing, Not the first time you have been wrong on this thread, why stop now?



Funny, Akh said he could find some examples of teams signing STs only guys. So I guess he doesn’t support your position fully.

And Akh was making a point in a different context, but why should nuance be easy for you to grasp when you clearly can't grasp reading comprehension?



Your posts are pretty stupid for somebody who claims to know so much. I never said Doughty was the penultimate STs player. I said decent. He fills a role and he’s really cheap to keep around.

Nobody put words in your mouth, so stop playing victim. He is not decent. He is bad. He garnered no interest outside of this organization and again, your critique about the intelligence or lack thereof about my posts re: pure special teamers would actually mean something to me if you demonstrated that you actually understood what was written.


Edit - I realize that the above was to BNG and not me, you chracterized the exact same position as "Stupid" so I am responding as well.

[firehawk157]

Except that you're trying to imply that you're interpretation of what happened is the truth without any evidence backing it up.

How can you possibly assert that, especially given I said it was my personal opinion? What else do I need to do, send a parade announcing that this was my personal opinion through the thread?



Do yourself a favor and stop using the redskins front office or coaching staff as proof of anything competent. They've shown that they're incompetent from top to bottom. Considering that Doughty got the absolute minimum in a contract from the skins means that there was zero interest in him from other teams. And anyone who honestly watched Doughty play wouldn't be surprised. He sucks.

Jerry Gray is a good DB coach. Hence why our secondary play was as good as it was. I wasn't referring to anybody else in the staff as good other than Gray. Don't try to infer I was to make your point appear more valid.


Anyone who can at least vaguely cover the pass is a major upgrade from Doughty. Doughty can't play the pass, play the run, blitz or create turnovers. Anyone who can do any one of those things represents a major upgrade from him.

Sure thing dude...

If you think Doughty is any better, you're delusional. Hamlin and Davis aren't good safeties, but they contribute something. Doughty doesn't do that. He contributes nothing.

Hamlin is undoubtedly a better safety (isn't available obviously). Davis is a marginal better safety with plenty of his own problems. He also has character concerns and isn't worth twice the cap space as Doughty.

[Keino]

(1) Rock Cartwright got no offers. And then had an excellent season returning kickoffs for us. To argue that Cartwright is not an NFL player because he got no offers last year is ridiculous. Same with Doughty.
(2) Right now, I count 58 guys signed to the roster (with Suisham being the most recent). Even after we sign Wynn, Golston and Montgomery probably this week, that leaves 61 guys on our roster. We have 19 slots left, which leaves plenty of room for our draft picks, undrafted free agents (we usually sign about 10-12) and a few more veteran free agents. Doughty is not costing us a roster spot right now. Yes, he will cost us a roster spot in camp if he is still there. But he is not preventing us from signing a DE or an OT or a starting LB and bringing that player to camp.



1. Cartwright does not belong on an NFL roster. If it were up to me, we would have cut him in favor of someone who would have been able to contribute at RB instead of signing Alexander in the middle of the year. That he garnered no interest, despite being in the top 5 on Kick returns the previous year speaks volumes about the perception of his abilities. I am pretty confident that had we cut Rock he would not have been signed by anyone. IN short, sticking on our roster is not evidence of belonging in the NFL.

2. Do you really believe that he won't be around for Camp? Cmon. Stop with the hair splitting.


As to the rest of your post, he is a total stiff and our coaching staff had to specially scheme for his inability to play the Safety position. He did not hold it down, but rather he was our only available warm body and we made do. Big difference.

[BurgundyNGold]

Except that Doughty was in 2007. Sure, he struggled in 2008, but he was serviceable in 2007 and you are being disingenious to assert otherwise.
He wasn't very good in 2007 either. I will hand it to him that he stepped into a hopeless situation when ST went down, further exacerbated by his inability to play the position at an NFL level. But don't confuse the heroics of him stepping in with serviceable play. We were all in shock (as were the people in the media). Everyone gave him a pass on his inadequacies because he had the unenviable task of stepping in for a beloved pro bowler, taken from us in his prime.

In 2007 with Doughty and Landry back there for half of the season, the Redskins were 16th against the pass. In 2008 with Landry and (mostly) Horton, who you would argue is strictly a SS, the Redskins finished 7th. Coincidence? Not if you noticed how poorly that Doughty played in 2007. Why else would the FO have drafted 2 safeties and signed others as UDFA?

That isn't universally the case. If you think that, then that's fine but to assert that anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb, doesn't know the roster or what have you is egotistical.
It's not egotistical if it's true. Doughty has a lot of good will. People like him. I like him personally, but I hate to see him on our team. I wish him success, only in Cleveland, lol.

Should those of us who disagree with every move you criticize just accept the title of apologist (I'm sure somebody would label you an apologist for supporting one of those moves too)? They re-signed Wynn and I criticized them for it.
If you're inclined to broad stroke criticism of the FO for re-signing retreads, have-beens and never-weres as opposed to real upgrades as "whining" then it's only commensurate that your position be characterized as FO apologism since that's what you're doing.

There will be a bunch of crappy players at camp. You can't complain about every one. If Doughty makes the final 53 then you can divide the argument into two sections. If you believe he was the 4th best safety and there were no better safeties in camp, that's on the FO (assuming you think we should get somebody else). If you think a player deserved to make it over him, that's on the coaches. However, it's all hypothetical at this point since we don't know who is going to be on the camp roster or how they are going to do.
It's not an either-or. I can blame the FO for being lazy and re-signing known, ineffective commodities and/or crappy players as opposed to doing their job and upgrading the talent level on the team. I can also blame the coaches if they keep (or choose to play) a lesser talented or over the hill player strictly because they are known commodities.


Are you kidding me, do you REALLY expect Doughty to cover the best WR in the league (by a fair margin)? His tackling isn't that bad. It's not to the level of Horton, but it's fair.
When he is in a Cover 2, that's his job. So, yeah, I expect him to cover the deep zone if that's what he's paid to do. When he can't, I realize him limitation and recognize that he is of lesser value. At some point when there are enough of those areas of the field and job tasks that he cannot perform adequately, you just have to realize that he is a liability and that playing him only makes the team worse. And if you cannot play him, why even have him on the roster? It's Darwinian and harsh, but it's also reality.

Stop your whining about my accusations of whining.
I guess the whole fan base, save you, gallant knight of Snyderrato, is comprised of whiners then. I guess when we pay what we do for this team and invest so much of our time and energy in following this storied and beleaguered franchise, we should just grin and bear it? That's BS. When Snyderrato hurts this team, it hurts me. I'm sure others feel the same way. Speaking out about major abuses and incompetence is the only recourse we have. It you feel it's whining, well, too bad. I'm sure there's a Doughty fluffing thread over at ES you can post on where nobody is "whining".

Except you can't make the argument that Doughty will only last two years or provides half the level of play as some of the other names mentioned.
I thought my analogy was rather straightforward.

The other players mentioned are NFL starters. Doughty isn't even recognized by very many people as a capable backup. Having him on the roster lulls the FO into some false sense of security that the position is somehow filled and provides some illusory satisfaction that they have somehow done their job. It also retards the development of Kareem Moore or any other player who should get their shot.

We are not a better team with Reed Doughty than we are without him.

I doubt any 4th safety in the league is going to appreciably make their teams better. If he's home in November, I won't bat an eye, that's fine.
Again, you must not be watching the games in any detail. No team in the league rotates their safeties or plays as many at the same time as we do. Our 4th safety will get considerable playing time. As a result, out 4th safety can be a significant game time liability which could result in a significantly negative impact.

[firehawk157]

There are plenty of options out there to be had for $500K that are more talented than Doughty. That we settled on Doughty demonstrates gross laziness and gross incompetence on the part of this front Office.

Like who?


Yes, that is exactly what you did. In response to my critique of the Front Office penchant for signing marginal talent at their positions because the players in question are pure special Teamers, you wrote:

But you are not even correct in what you are saying and are clearly not READING what I have said re: Pure Special Teamers. I will repeat: Teams don't re-sign pure special teamers that do not transition to being a contributor at their primary position, whatever that is. Hester, Cribbs and Now Mitchell, all fit that scenario. By his 3rd year in the league, Mitchell was THE 3rd down Back and a significant contributor on Offense in addition to his role on special teams. Reed Doughty has not sniffed or remotely approached the contributions of these guys on Special Teams in addition to not being able to effectively contribute at his primary position.

Read through my posts again. I have consistently made this argument re: pure special teamers and have consitently argued that we carry far too many of these types of players. Cartwright, Thrash et. al.

Mitchell definitely wasn’t always the 3rd down back from his 3rd year on and didn’t always have a role on offense. And Doughty (based on current pay scales) gets paid peanuts to what these guys do, so I wouldn’t expect him to make the same level of contribution. This was merely showing you that there are plenty of ST contributors on the roster.


Yawn. What's your point? You attacked my credibility over a non-point while demonstrating that you have none, regardless of how many people agree with you (and ignoring that many more people as evidenced by the poll results agree with me).

Yeah, except you are skewing the results in your mind for some bizarre reason. A good portion said meh, don’t care. Also, the poll is slightly skewed because of the leading answers. You either have to not care, think it’s a no-brainer or think it’s retarded and/or charity. How about where I actually fall, not a horrible signing but as long as he is the 4th safety, it’s a good price.

Actually the premise of this thread is a poll evaluating the signing, Not the first time you have been wrong on this thread, why stop now?

The poll was based off an argument in the aforementioned thread and had it’s base in that. But hey, don’t let the truth stand in your way. And BTW, you STILL haven’t named names.

And Akh was making a point in a different context, but why should nuance be easy for you to grasp when you clearly can't grasp reading comprehension?

I can’t grasp comprehension? So I can’t grasp the idea of grasping ideas? Perhaps you need to write more clearly as you probably wanted to say that Akh’s nuance escaped me given the little comprehension I’ve shown towards basic concepts. Feel free to use that to insult me next as I know you need the help.

Regardless, Akh said he could find guys who were signed for purely ST. That is either true or false. If it is true, then I am right because I said so. If it is false, then I’m wrong.


Nobody put words in your mouth, so stop playing victim. He is not decent. He is bad. He garnered no interest outside of this organization and again, your critique about the intelligence or lack thereof about my posts re: pure special teamers would actually mean something to me if you demonstrated that you actually understood what was written.

Edit - I realize that the above was to BNG and not me, you chracterized the exact same position as "Stupid" so I am responding as well.

Subjective… And I find that your position is stupid still and I understand everything you just said perfectly well. You just like to chase the red herring and you bore me.

[akhhorus]

How can you possibly assert that, especially given I said it was my personal opinion? What else do I need to do, send a parade announcing that this was my personal opinion through the thread?


You tried to present it as fact. And you're just trying to hairsplit to get off of the main point...again.

Jerry Gray is a good DB coach. Hence why our secondary play was as good as it was. I wasn't referring to anybody else in the staff as good other than Gray. Don't try to infer I was to make your point appear more valid.

Please show me where Jerry Gray fought to keep Horton off the field for Doughty.

Sure thing dude...


Sadly, your best retort. For someone who once accused me of being too much in Campbell's corner, you should look at what you're twisting yourself into for some nobody.

Hamlin is undoubtedly a better safety (isn't available obviously). Davis is a marginal better safety with plenty of his own problems. He also has character concerns and isn't worth twice the cap space as Doughty.

Any player who can produce on the field even at twice Doughty's cap number is more valuable than Doughty. Dogcrap at a discount is still dogcrap.

[firehawk157]

He wasn't very good in 2007 either. I will hand it to him that he stepped into a hopeless situation when ST went down, further exacerbated by his inability to play the position at an NFL level. But don't confuse the heroics of him stepping in with serviceable play. We were all in shock (as were the people in the media). Everyone gave him a pass on his inadequacies because he had the unenviable task of stepping in for a beloved pro bowler, taken from us in his prime.

In 2007 with Doughty and Landry back there for half of the season, the Redskins were 16th against the pass. In 2008 with Landry and (mostly) Horton, who you would argue is strictly a SS, the Redskins finished 7th. Coincidence? Not if you noticed how poorly that Doughty played in 2007. Why else would the FO have drafted 2 safeties and signed others as UDFA?

You could also argue that Carlos Rogers went down for the season and Fred Smoot (who was injured) was forced into the #2 role. But hey, it’s all Doughty’s fault because it fits into your argument.


It's not egotistical if it's true. Doughty has a lot of good will. People like him. I like him personally, but I hate to see him on our team. I wish him success, only in Cleveland, lol.

That’s fine, you think it’s true. We disagree on his value. Great.


If you're inclined to broad stroke criticism of the FO for re-signing retreads, have-beens and never-weres as opposed to real upgrades as "whining" then it's only commensurate that your position be characterized as FO apologism since that's what you're doing.

I’m not inclined to broad-stroke anything since we examine just about every single move here at hR. If defending a signing I think is okay, or at least not as bad as others make it out to be is apologism, well then whatever.

It's not an either-or. I can blame the FO for being lazy and re-signing known, ineffective commodities and/or crappy players as opposed to doing their job and upgrading the talent level on the team. I can also blame the coaches if they keep (or choose to play) a lesser talented or over the hill player strictly because they are known commodities.

Do you propose we replace every single known ineffective commodity in one offseason? Where do you plan to get that cap room?



When he is in a Cover 2, that's his job. So, yeah, I expect him to cover the deep zone if that's what he's paid to do. When he can't, I realize him limitation and recognize that he is of lesser value. At some point when there are enough of those areas of the field and job tasks that he cannot perform adequately, you just have to realize that he is a liability and that playing him only makes the team worse. And if you cannot play him, why even have him on the roster? It's Darwinian and harsh, but it's also reality.

Great then, every safety in the league can’t do their jobs. CUT THEM ALL! And the corners too. Saying Larry Fitzgerald burnt him does not prove your point whatsoever because he burns a lot of DBs. I don’t think there’s one who can guard him in the league.


I guess the whole fan base, save you, gallant knight of Snyderrato, is comprised of whiners then. I guess when we pay what we do for this team and invest so much of our time and energy in following this storied and beleaguered franchise, we should just grin and bear it? That's BS. When Snyderrato hurts this team, it hurts me. I'm sure others feel the same way. Speaking out about major abuses and incompetence is the only recourse we have. It you feel it's whining, well, too bad. I'm sure there's a Doughty fluffing thread over at ES you can post on where nobody is "whining".

Calm down there Betty, it was a joke.


I thought my analogy was rather straightforward.

It was a horrible analogy. You implied that Doughty would break in 2 years. Since I have to have all the literary ability in this thread, an analogy about poor industrial equipment would have been better. Worse product, lost income in the long run. You can go ahead and use that if you want to.

The other players mentioned are NFL starters. Doughty isn't even recognized by very many people as a capable backup. Having him on the roster lulls the FO into some false sense of security that the position is somehow filled and provides some illusory satisfaction that they have somehow done their job. It also retards the development of Kareem Moore or any other player who should get their shot.

We are not a better team with Reed Doughty than we are without him.

I don’t think the pendulum swings an appreciable amount either way with this signing.


Again, you must not be watching the games in any detail. No team in the league rotates their safeties or plays as many at the same time as we do. Our 4th safety will get considerable playing time. As a result, out 4th safety can be a significant game time liability which could result in a significantly negative impact.

Mike Green made 20 tackles in 10 weeks as the 4th safety. I don’t know how many are ST tackles but for as much time he was in, I think we can safely say that Doughty is roughly the same level. Either that, or he wasn’t in all that often at 4th safety.

[BurgundyNGold]

You could also argue that Carlos Rogers went down for the season and Fred Smoot (who was injured) was forced into the #2 role. But hey, it’s all Doughty’s fault because it fits into your argument.
It's as much Doughty's fault as it is Smoot's. Smoot has been a starter in this league and wasn't particulalry victimized in 2007, as I recall. They didn't have to scheme the whole defensive game plan around Smoot. Can you say any of the same about Doughty in 2007?

That’s fine, you think it’s true. We disagree on his value. Great.
Super great. Fabulous. Doughterrific, even

I’m not inclined to broad-stroke anything since we examine just about every single move here at hR. If defending a signing I think is okay, or at least not as bad as others make it out to be is apologism, well then whatever.
Be sure that the next time that you complain about something the FO does that you adequately characterize it as "whining" while you're at it.

Do you propose we replace every single known ineffective commodity in one offseason? Where do you plan to get that cap room?
Stop with the ad absurdiums. Especially in the the face of a team with 3 starter holes that your FO hasn't bothered to address at all during the offseason. Actually, that's not true. They turned 3 holes into 2 holes into 3 holes again. Oh, and they re-signed Doughty.

Great then, every safety in the league can’t do their jobs. CUT THEM ALL! And the corners too. Saying Larry Fitzgerald burnt him does not prove your point whatsoever because he burns a lot of DBs. I don’t think there’s one who can guard him in the league.
Captain Hyperbole, away!

The point of the Cover 2 is to take away the deep stuff. Landry did his job. Doughty, in limited action, failed miserably. Shocker, lol.

Calm down there Betty, it was a joke.
It's not a joke when you say it with venom dripping from your posts. And you say it repeatedly as part of your argument. And when it's not funny.

It was a horrible analogy. You implied that Doughty would break in 2 years. Since I have to have all the literary ability in this thread, an analogy about poor industrial equipment would have been better. Worse product, lost income in the long run. You can go ahead and use that if you want to.
I think it was a very good analogy for people who don't run with the Melwood crowd. The actual cost and time values were irrelevant to the analogy beyond providing necessary relative values for analogical comparison. Shocker, you got hung up on the 2 years business. Surprisingly, you didn't let the $100 and $50 figures trip you up. Feel free to use $1,000,000 or 2 months or any other proportionate values in the analogy if it helps.

The moral of the story is, if you buy on the cheap and you get what you pay for. Doing it once is acceptable. Doing it again when you know that the product is inferior and of unacceptable quality is both fiscally and functionally irresponsible.

I don’t think the pendulum swings an appreciable amount either way with this signing.
Again, you want to argue more about the symptom than to see the disease.

Mike Green made 20 tackles in 10 weeks as the 4th safety. I don’t know how many are ST tackles but for as much time he was in, I think we can safely say that Doughty is roughly the same level. Either that, or he wasn’t in all that often at 4th safety.
He wasn't in that often. He was signed late, took a while to get into game shape and didn't make much of an impression when he finally did get in because, by then, teams were just running up and down the field on us.

[Keino]

Like who?

Honestly, you want me to make list?




Mitchell definitely wasn’t always the 3rd down back from his 3rd year on and didn’t always have a role on offense. And Doughty (based on current pay scales) gets paid peanuts to what these guys do, so I wouldn’t expect him to make the same level of contribution. This was merely showing you that there are plenty of ST contributors on the roster.

4th year on, excuse me. Nice backtracking on your ridiculous comparison. Again, try reading what I wrote.





Yeah, except you are skewing the results in your mind for some bizarre reason. A good portion said meh, don’t care. Also, the poll is slightly skewed because of the leading answers. You either have to not care, think it’s a no-brainer or think it’s retarded and/or charity. How about where I actually fall, not a horrible signing but as long as he is the 4th safety, it’s a good price.

There is an answer on the poll for quality signing and one that combines quality with "Meh". You are arguing that it is that, but don't have the intellectual honesty to vote that way. Why is that? There are a total of 9 out of 59 voters who view the signing as favorable, 10 including you who didn't vote that way.



The poll was based off an argument in the aforementioned thread and had it’s base in that. But hey, don’t let the truth stand in your way. And BTW, you STILL haven’t named names.

Truth as in the premise of this thread being a poll and not being about Davis? That the poll came from the previous thread does not change the basic premise of this thread.

Why do I need to name names to evaluate Doughty. I have said from the beginning that I think I am as good as him. That would mean that I think there are quite a few people who are better than he.



I can’t grasp comprehension? So I can’t grasp the idea of grasping ideas? Perhaps you need to write more clearly as you probably wanted to say that Akh’s nuance escaped me given the little comprehension I’ve shown towards basic concepts. Feel free to use that to insult me next as I know you need the help.

Correct. You have no grasp of the skill of reading comprehension. Since you are the only one who clearly doesn't understand my writing, I think the problem lies with you and not me. I don't need your help to insult you. Your moronic positions do that all on their own.


Regardless, Akh said he could find guys who were signed for purely ST. That is either true or false. If it is true, then I am right because I said so. If it is false, then I’m wrong.

Yes, and I qualified that (Teams signing pure special teamers) and Akh has not voiced any disagreement with my position, but there goes that reading comprehension thing again.




Subjective… And I find that your position is stupid still and I understand everything you just said perfectly well. You just like to chase the red herring and you bore me.

Clearly you don't because you don't address anything I write with any degree of intelligence or honesty. It would bore me too if I looked as silly as you look currently, so I cannot blame you for that.

[firehawk157]

I'm done with this.

I understand everybody's position well and we disagree and I'm leaving it at that. Just for the final record, I agree with BNG's assertion that this is indicative of FO complacency with the status quo but that's more because of the Suisham and Wynn signings, combined with the reported interest in Washington and Daniels. Akh, Keino or BNG, if you wish to me to address your specific points in a PM, that's fine, send me them and I'll address them. This thread has become a pissing match and if you want to keep pissing, we can do so via PM. We shouldn't subject the rest of the forum.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I know people around here are not too high on Reed's abilities, but the guy can tackle. Without him on Teams last season after he was injured, the coverage teams sucked. With him they sucked less.

[skin4ever]

Honestly, you want me to make list?




I would. :kidding:

[colkurtz]

Reed is just another example of the 'devil you know'. I think Vinny has no confidence in his own draft pick ability and would re-hire a known mediocre player in the name of "Stability / Continuity" than to draft another total bust.

With a player like Doughty - Cerrato can blame it all on Blache [who never will call him out in the press] rather than face the press after he picks a boat anchor in the draft.

[smoak]

Don't really care... I like Doughty, but not as much more than a ST and spot contributor. The reality is when you dish out $100MM for one guy, you are going to have a handful of "Doughty" to offset it.

[Patrick]

WOW Reed Doughty – for being such an insignificant player in 13 days your thread has 1014 views and 122 replies. Man, you can sure tell when it’s the off-season. …………………… lol..........! :rolleyes:

[skin4ever]

WOW Reed Doughty – for being such an insignificant player in 13 days your thread has 1014 views and 122 replies. Man, you can sure tell when it’s the off-season. …………………… lol..........! :rolleyes:

thats what i thought too when i saw it this morning.

[Keino]

WOW Reed Doughty – for being such an insignificant player in 13 days your thread has 1014 views and 122 replies. Man, you can sure tell when it’s the off-season. …………………… lol..........! :rolleyes:

It's not really about Doughty, but about the Front Office laziness in signing inferior players who are known rather than upgrading the talent with lesser known player. Doughty just happens to be the inferior player that sparked the discussion, but this thread could have very easily been about Renaldo Wynn or others.

In other words it is about the approach to the offseason and the talent evaluation related thereto rather than the player.

[firehawk157]

Can a mod unsticky this abomination of a thread and let it die with the little dignity it has left?

[BurgundyNGold]

Another vote in the poll, lol. This thread won't die because Reed Doughty is a vampire. A slow, untalented vampire. Who can't tackle, lol.

[HAWGZHEAD]

Another vote in the poll, lol. This thread won't die because Reed Doughty is a vampire. A slow, untalented vampire. Who can't tackle, lol.lmao, awesome.

[akhhorus]

Another vote in the poll, lol. This thread won't die because Reed Doughty is a vampire. A slow, untalented vampire. Who can't tackle, lol.

I guess he should find a sport without a facemask then, eh?

[Meatsnack]

since there is no guarantee he makes the final 53, I really don't care. If Reed makes the roster, I am concerned. If he has to play very much, I am both angry and afraid.

Fear =>Anger=>Hate=>The Dark Side

By this equation, first proved by the great natural philosopher Yoda, if Reed makes the final 53 and has to play a full game, I will be Al Davis' Sith Apprentice by game 6 of the regular season. Darth Meatsnack doesn't really work for me, though.

[BurgundyNGold]

since there is no guarantee he makes the final 53, I really don't care. If Reed makes the roster, I am concerned. If he has to play very much, I am both angry and afraid.

Fear =>Anger=>Hate=>The Dark Side

By this equation, first proved by the great natural philosopher Yoda, if Reed makes the final 53 and has to play a full game, I will be Al Davis' Sith Apprentice by game 6 of the regular season. Darth Meatsnack doesn't really work for me, though.
QED, lmao.

[bigcmr]

Camp fodder is how I feel about him. Using him as a punching bag during TC.

He'll get cut.

Bingo