Offensive line full of ?...

[NCskinsfanatic]

This article doesnt really calm my concerns in regards to our over the hill OL...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/01/AR2009050103847.html

[Redskinfan28]

Our OL will keep us from making the next step to the playoffs. It is clearly our weakest link, with an injury or two from being a disaster. I am not sure why noone in management values the position.

[BostonSkins]

I'm trying to come up with the correct analogy here. If Snyder were playing Jenga with Vinny they'd each remove all of the bottom pieces at the base, watch the whole thing fall down and then start over and do the exact same thing again every day for ten years.

[Keino]

I'm trying to come up with the correct analogy here. If Snyder were playing Jenga with Vinny they'd each remove all of the bottom pieces at the base, watch the whole thing fall down and then start over and do the exact same thing again.

Seems like you found a proper analogy. Here's one: Building a house of cards but only after turning on the Industrial strength Ceiling fan and the water sprinklers?

[Patrick]

I still think they'll bring in some players.

[Gravy]

I still think they'll bring in some players.

Aren't the Bungels shopping Levi Jones?

[NCskinsfanatic]

Aren't the Bungels shopping Levi Jones?

Yep but he wants to return home to Arizona if released...I agree that our offensive line depth should have been addressed in the offseason. And Imo it could have been if we had made it more of a priority, we had the money for atleast one more solid additon after releasing JT. But this is coming from an oprganization that wants to play their pass rushing DE at OLB because they neglected that position too.

[ClubSandwichGuy]

Don't worry, we can win every game this season 3-0!!



ugh...

[tuckahoeskin]

It is so obvious to so many, yet Vinny and Danny just don't get it. They might as well be the four year olds on my kids flag football team. The difference, though, is that while they may look lost, they don't look cute doing it.

I simply do not understand how Danny can say he grew up a fan of this team and not understand the importance of a dominant offensive line. The man is either foolish or a football dunce. I'll listen to arguments from anyone claiming he's both.

[Keino]

It is so obvious to so many, yet Vinny and Danny just don't get it. They might as well be the four year olds on my kids flag football team. The difference, though, is that while they may look lost, they don't look cute doing it.

I simply do not understand how Danny can say he grew up a fan of this team and not understand the importance of a dominant offensive line. The man is either foolish or a football dunce. I'll listen to arguments from anyone claiming he's both.


He's making money. That's all he cares about.

[tuckahoeskin]

He's making money. That's all he cares about.



What doesn't jibe with the statement that he only cares about money is that he maxes out signing bonuses and the salary cap every year. He's not Jeffery Lurie. It's not like he doesn't bump against the salary cap each and every year. Considering his penchant for being willing to spend on the team, and his professed long term love for this team, we should be enjoying a better product. Yet, we don't.

That points to basic problems in management. Someone has to be removed from the situation. At this point, the one constant has been Danny. He needs to remove himself from the situation, hire a real GM, and watch the team win. Learn from JKC. Hire good people, sit on the sidelines at training camp, bang young nutty chicks from South America, and collect Super Bowl trophies. Not a bad life.

Yeah, he wants to make money. Win and he could make more, though.

[Keino]

What doesn't jibe with the statement that he only cares about money is that he maxes out signing bonuses and the salary cap every year. He's not Jeffery Lurie. It's not like he doesn't bump against the salary cap each and every year. Considering his penchant for being willing to spend on the team, and his professed long term love for this team, we should be enjoying a better product. Yet, we don't.

That points to basic problems in management. Someone has to be removed from the situation. At this point, the one constant has been Danny. He needs to remove himself from the situation, hire a real GM, and watch the team win. Learn from JKC. Hire good people, sit on the sidelines at training camp, bang young nutty chicks from South America, and collect Super Bowl trophies. Not a bad life.

Yeah, he wants to make money. Win and he could make more, though.

Yea, but the minute his brushing with the salary cap starts to affect the bottomline, he will try a different approach. While I am of the opinion he doesn't care, he does care about his perception of caring. I've come to believe the whole "I am a fan" crap is just one of his marketing gimmicks.

[shally]

way too early to bring out the doom and gloom scenarios.. let's see what happens with guys like reinhart, clark and heyer.. hopefully with a year to build up their bodies and to have learned some techniques, they will be more effective.. bridges might be an option and who know what williams brings to the table.

the giants are often touted as a model franchise when it comes to the stability and quality of their offensive line.. but as far as i know, only snee was a premium draft pick ( high round 2).. starters are where you find them.

this is not to say that the redskins have not put the team at risk by
ignoring the line in years past. but by adding dockery and developing reinhart, clark and heyer, they have begun to address the situation. clearly, the right tackle is an area of remaining concern. but again, it is way too early to start the hand wringing.. and if nothing else, there are guys out there now, and there will be other guys out there soon enough (levi jones)
who could make a difference..

[VegasSkinsFan]

way too early to bring out the doom and gloom scenarios.. let's see what happens with guys like reinhart, clark and heyer.. hopefully with a year to build up their bodies and to have learned some techniques, they will be more effective.. bridges might be an option and who know what williams brings to the table.

the giants are often touted as a model franchise when it comes to the stability and quality of their offensive line.. but as far as i know, only snee was a premium draft pick ( high round 2).. starters are where you find them.

this is not to say that the redskins have not put the team at risk by
ignoring the line in years past. but by adding dockery and developing reinhart, clark and heyer, they have begun to address the situation. clearly, the right tackle is an area of remaining concern. but again, it is way too early to start the hand wringing.. and if nothing else, there are guys out there now, and there will be other guys out there soon enough (levi jones)
who could make a difference..

Shally...i agree and i also think that the center from MD has a shot. The problem is the front offices negligence by thinking they can build with cheaper guys instead of using a top round pick to build...you have a better chance of making a quality meal when you use quality products. Seems like we are trying to mask baloney as roast beef sometimes.

[shally]

Shally...i agree and i also think that the center from MD has a shot. The problem is the front offices negligence by thinking they can build with cheaper guys instead of using a top round pick to build...you have a better chance of making a quality meal when you use quality products. Seems like we are trying to mask baloney as roast beef sometimes.


adding reinhart as a #3 pick and dockery in this offseason are reasonable efforts.. why not Right tackles as well ? couple of possible reasons are that Oher was not deemed to be a solid pick at 13 (another 10 picks went by before he was actually picked) and although i would have loved Britton, i guess the front office felt that Orakpo was the better value

the team also seemed to think that Ed Williams might be a solid center prospect from the way their courted him before and after the draft.
centers are undervalued and rabach has at least 1 more decent year left in his body. grabbing Williams to develop towards 2010 looks to be a value move..

who knows what happens with Right tackle ? my guess is that the team is rolling the dice with hopes that either Heyer or Williams is the answer.. if not, guys like Tauscher/runyon/l jones and several others are out there

again, way too early to worry.. concern ?? you bet, but worry ? not yet called for

[VegasSkinsFan]

No need for concern if, as you say, we get positive development from the the rinehart/clark/heyer/williams youth plus dock/williams pickups. Lots of what if...but in a perfect scenario...the line would now have a nice shot of youth. Same thing with the young dline guys too....and lbs henson/glenn/palmer....dang thats a lot of what ifs haha.

[MadDog97]

way too early to bring out the doom and gloom scenarios.. let's see what happens with guys like reinhart, clark and heyer.. hopefully with a year to build up their bodies and to have learned some techniques, they will be more effective.. bridges might be an option and who know what williams brings to the table.

the giants are often touted as a model franchise when it comes to the stability and quality of their offensive line.. but as far as i know, only snee was a premium draft pick ( high round 2).. starters are where you find them.

this is not to say that the redskins have not put the team at risk by
ignoring the line in years past. but by adding dockery and developing reinhart, clark and heyer, they have begun to address the situation. clearly, the right tackle is an area of remaining concern. but again, it is way too early to start the hand wringing.. and if nothing else, there are guys out there now, and there will be other guys out there soon enough (levi jones)
who could make a difference..

I think the gloom and doom is early, but maybe not too much. Let's look at recent history.

- If Samuels cannot stay healthy we are very weak at left tackle.

- Noone has really claimed the right tackle position and I am not very impressed with Heyer.

- Despite that, there were no attempts to draft an offensive lineman. I like Barnes, he is a hitter, but we needed an offensive line prospect. Smoot, Rogers, and Hall give us strength at corner. Do we need another wideout and TE? Also, there were not a lot of offensive lineman asked to come as potential free agents.

- Haynesworth and Orakpo are great players, but not a fit for Blache. Haynesworth has already made it clear that he is not there to just occupy space. Orakpo is the best pass rusher we have, potentially. I see potential rebellion here.

- Zorn and Campbell are distracted. Zorn publicly supported JC so you have to assume his job is on the line. JC was a class act but he is no better than the line in front of him.

The Giants have much better line play than the Skins and that defines our problem. Danny does not understand that it ends and begins in the trenches. Ask the Steelers, Giants, and other teams that always seem to be in the playoff hunt.


:cry: :crazy:

[shally]

I think the gloom and doom is early, but maybe not too much. Let's look at recent history.

- If Samuels cannot stay healthy we are very weak at left tackle.

- Noone has really claimed the right tackle position and I am not very impressed with Heyer.

- Despite that, there were no attempts to draft an offensive lineman. I like Barnes, he is a hitter, but we needed an offensive line prospect. Smoot, Rogers, and Hall give us strength at corner. Do we need another wideout and TE? Also, there were not a lot of offensive lineman asked to come as potential free agents.

- Haynesworth and Orakpo are great players, but not a fit for Blache. Haynesworth has already made it clear that he is not there to just occupy space. Orakpo is the best pass rusher we have, potentially. I see potential rebellion here.

- Zorn and Campbell are distracted. Zorn publicly supported JC so you have to assume his job is on the line. JC was a class act but he is no better than the line in front of him.

The Giants have much better line play than the Skins and that defines our problem. Danny does not understand that it ends and begins in the trenches. Ask the Steelers, Giants, and other teams that always seem to be in the playoff hunt.


:cry: :crazy:

i am hopeful that perhaps, despite the crusty and rigid exterior, maybe Blache will modify his approach.. despite the debacle that the Taylor trade was, i dont believe that the front office would go out a get Orakpo and Haynesworth for Blache to waste their talents.. then again, there appears to be no depth to which the front office cant sink, so i am just holding my breath on that one.. maybe getting Daniels back healthy will be enough for Blache ?? one can only hope

losing Samuels would be a huge loss.. on the other hand, few teams can sustain the loss of their left tackle without a fall off in their line play.
let's just hope he stays well this year.

my point about the Giants was not made to discount the worth of the line, only to state that you can get a quality line without investing a lot of high picks in it.. same is true about Pitts, who even let Faneca walk.
can you imagine the uproar if we let samuels walk ?
other than that, i dont believe Pitts has invested a number 1 pick in their o line either.. and their o line was much reviled inthe early portion of last year. despite winning it all, Big Ben was the 4th highest overall qb in terms of sacks taken (JC was 10th overall, i believe) so it is more complex than simply saying that the O line has to protect better.. but upgrading the O line is still something the Skins have to do, no matter what pathway they choose to do it by..

[SkinsGuru]

adding reinhart as a #3 pick and dockery in this offseason are reasonable efforts.. why not Right tackles as well ? couple of possible reasons are that Oher was not deemed to be a solid pick at 13 (another 10 picks went by before he was actually picked) and although i would have loved Britton, i guess the front office felt that Orakpo was the better value

the team also seemed to think that Ed Williams might be a solid center prospect from the way their courted him before and after the draft.
centers are undervalued and rabach has at least 1 more decent year left in his body. grabbing Williams to develop towards 2010 looks to be a value move..

who knows what happens with Right tackle ? my guess is that the team is rolling the dice with hopes that either Heyer or Williams is the answer.. if not, guys like Tauscher/runyon/l jones and several others are out there

again, way too early to worry.. concern ?? you bet, but worry ? not yet called for


Who is the Jeremy Bridges they are talking about in the article???

[BurgundyNGold]

What doesn't jibe with the statement that he only cares about money is that he maxes out signing bonuses and the salary cap every year. He's not Jeffery Lurie. It's not like he doesn't bump against the salary cap each and every year. Considering his penchant for being willing to spend on the team, and his professed long term love for this team, we should be enjoying a better product. Yet, we don't.
Yeah, but in order for his marketing model to work, he has to chase big name players and pump up the hype. It's readily apparent that a large percentage of DC area Redskin fans are not short on two things: 1) deep understanding of football, and 2) disposable income.

Every year when these fans see that we made such splashy moves, they line up like Pavlov's dogs for their annual meat powder supplements. This year, they see that we signed Albert Haynesworth and that we drafted Brian Orakpo. Right on schedule, they're properly convinced that our defense will be "sick" that they completely forget that we did nothing to address our OL (which was our biggest weakness least year) and conveniently ignore that Brian Orakpo is not a fit for Blache's defensive philosophy and will be (is being) misused.

If Danny didn't splash like this and spend like crazy during FA -- which, not coincidentally is right before season ticket notices go out ;) -- his model wouldn't work.

That points to basic problems in management. Someone has to be removed from the situation. At this point, the one constant has been Danny. He needs to remove himself from the situation, hire a real GM, and watch the team win. Learn from JKC. Hire good people, sit on the sidelines at training camp, bang young nutty chicks from South America, and collect Super Bowl trophies. Not a bad life.
His ego won't let him do that. Danny is our de facto GM. Vinny is merely the emerald curtain that hides the Wizard.

Yeah, he wants to make money. Win and he could make more, though.
True enough, but if given the choice between...

1) Extricating himself from the FO, spending like crazy, possibly winning and making more money, or
2) Being the Wizard who pulls the levers, living around 8-8 but servicing his ego while still making money

... he'll choose the latter every time.

You're right, something has to be removed from the equation. And that something is money. Stop spending money to see this team. Stop buying Redskin merchandise. Exercise economic sanctions against the Dictatorial Republic of Danny. Starve him out. That's the only thing that he will understand.

[shally]

Who is the Jeremy Bridges they are talking about in the article???

reserve OL who has been with Carolina for his career.. 6 years inthe league.. mostly a guard, but some comments about him possibly playing RT..

he has an issue of at least 1 incident that resulted in police investigation/possible arrest ? arose out of an incident at a club but it doesnt sound like anything too bad.just some questionable judgment on his part.. no disciplinary action as far as i know..

[silverspring]

I wonder if we have the cash to sign Jon Runyan or Mark Tauscher. It would be a quick fix. I get the impression we don't. I think we only have about 5 million and that will be down to 2 million after signing our draftees.

Otherwise I hope our backups get tons and tons of reps right now because they will more than likely be called into duty.

By the way I think Devin Clark is a right tackle of course we want to play him at left. I think Heyer should be playing left tackle, he fits the position better.

[SkinsGuru]

reserve OL who has been with Carolina for his career.. 6 years inthe league.. mostly a guard, but some comments about him possibly playing RT..

he has an issue of at least 1 incident that resulted in police investigation/possible arrest ? arose out of an incident at a club but it doesnt sound like anything too bad.just some questionable judgment on his part.. no disciplinary action as far as i know..


Maybe worse than you though . . . check this:

Source: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bridges)

Bridges was arrested prior to the start of training camp for the 2007 season and charged with misdemeanor assault for allegedly pointing a gun at a woman in a strip club parking lot in Charlotte, North Carolina. After a trial in November 2007, he was found guilty and given a 60-day suspended sentence and one year unsupervised probation; he was also ordered to pay a $500 fine and do 60 hours of community service. The Panthers suspended him for two games for the incident.[1]

On Sunday, December 7, 2008, Bridges was arrested in Ballantyne, Charlotte, North Carolina and charged with simple assault and battery and communicating threats. The arrest stemmed from a confrontation at a local restaurant. The incident started when Bridges ordered a bottle of Dom Pérignon (wine) from the restaurant bar Saturday night and shook it up, causing the champagne to spew and get other patrons wet. The restaurant manager alleges that Bridges then got into a verbal confrontation with another patron and then a physical confrontation with the bouncer, at which time the police were called. Bridges admits that he shook and opened the champagne bottle, but denies any physical confrontation. He was released on $2,500 bond.[2] He was inactive for the Panthers' game on December 8, 2008, but it is unclear if he will face any more punishment from either the Panthers or the NFL.[3]

hmmm . . .

[Jon Creveling]

Reports of "nervous" now coming out on Chad Rinehart?

Guess I was off a little bit when months ago I predicted that we'd hear BIG SISSY being offered up?:)

No realy guys, does any member have an 08 pre draft review book still laying around? I know some of you guys are total draft freaks (meant in a good way!)

Thing is months ago I had done some checking up on Rinehart as far as searching and I did come up with three different player profiles, damningly I recall 2 of the 3 projected him going between the 5th and 7th round.

Does anyone have anything on this guy? 3rd round worthy? Total reach?

[shally]

Reports of "nervous" now coming out on Chad Rinehart?

Guess I was off a little bit when months ago I predicted that we'd hear BIG SISSY being offered up?:)

No realy guys, does any member have an 08 pre draft review book still laying around? I know some of you guys are total draft freaks (meant in a good way!)

Thing is months ago I had done some checking up on Rinehart as far as searching and I did come up with three different player profiles, damningly I recall 2 of the 3 projected him going between the 5th and 7th round.

Does anyone have anything on this guy? 3rd round worthy? Total reach?

at this point it doesnt matter what he was projected to go last year.. there was a short note that he was looking better so far..

i think guard is going to be far less of an issue than potentially tackle

[BurgundyNGold]

Reports of "nervous" now coming out on Chad Rinehart?

Guess I was off a little bit when months ago I predicted that we'd hear BIG SISSY being offered up?:)

No realy guys, does any member have an 08 pre draft review book still laying around? I know some of you guys are total draft freaks (meant in a good way!)

Thing is months ago I had done some checking up on Rinehart as far as searching and I did come up with three different player profiles, damningly I recall 2 of the 3 projected him going between the 5th and 7th round.

Does anyone have anything on this guy? 3rd round worthy? Total reach?
Scouts, Inc. had Chad Reinhart listed as the 9th best OG. As part of that rating, he graded out at a 56, which is projected to be a 5th round selection, although much of that might be because he played against meh competition at Northern Iowa.

He was probably a reach as a 3rd round compensatory selection, but not an egregious one if he showed something specific that the scouts liked.

[shally]

Scouts, Inc. had Chad Reinhart listed as the 9th best OG. As part of that rating, he graded out at a 56, which is projected to be a 5th round selection, although much of that might be because he played against meh competition at Northern Iowa.

He was probably a reach as a 3rd round compensatory selection, but not an egregious one if he showed something specific that the scouts liked.

and he was said to have had a pretty solid week in the senior bowl practices.. i think that, more than anything, got him elevated

[smoak]

The reason I don't post much any more is b/c I don't have anything "new" to add.... I feel like every post will end with, "we are doomed until Danny kicks the bucket"

[shally]

The reason I don't post much any more is b/c I don't have anything "new" to add.... I feel like every post will end with, "we are doomed until Danny kicks the bucket"

....welll, firing Vinny would lift a lot of spirits i bet...

[Jon Creveling]

at this point it doesnt matter what he was projected to go last year.. there was a short note that he was looking better so far..

i think guard is going to be far less of an issue than potentially tackle

To a point that's true as far his projection last year meaning little now. But just what the hell is this confused and now updated Nervous tag Zorn is throwing around?

I actually think both tackle and guard are equal concerns, why?

Do we realy know now just how well Randy can play again? Look I hope he has no ill effects of the disk surgery but you do have to wonder if even if he does heal 100% does he go out and play 100%? What is the chance of recurrence as far as this injury goes?

I believe in the guy but lets face it, in many ways Pete was our 2nd best lineman last year. Between Randy playing maybe 8 games worried about the injury and from what I saw in his stint with the Bills, even though we can almost bank on Derrick playing all 16 games he does not come in with Petes head for the game. All depth on roster is suspect or facing gun charges:smash: or being labeled Nervous in practice? Just what can we expect out of him if he's called upon at 16W or the new Cowboys stadium?

Short notes on how Chad plowed Kedric today so Rock could gain 2 yards isn't cutting it:)

CALL PETE NOW! Only 1/2 joking.

[Jon Creveling]

Scouts, Inc. had Chad Reinhart listed as the 9th best OG. As part of that rating, he graded out at a 56, which is projected to be a 5th round selection, although much of that might be because he played against meh competition at Northern Iowa.

He was probably a reach as a 3rd round compensatory selection, but not an egregious one if he showed something specific that the scouts liked.

Thank you B.N.G.!

No intent to damn the player, just sick of endless excuses.

[smoak]

....welll, firing Vinny would lift a lot of spirits i bet...

Meh. Snyder would hire a new "lap dog". He is more of a problem than Vin.

[hogs86]

This comes from the Washington Times

Jansen at center

Jon Jansen, the Redskins' starting right tackle most of the past 10 seasons, received some time at center in relief of Casey Rabach.

Jansen struggled during a stint at guard in practice after he was benched for Stephon Heyer in September. But at 33 and understanding that he might be a backup this season, Jansen is more accommodating to the move.

"I'm a man of many talents," Jansen said. "We just want to take a look at it and see if I can play more than one position. I think it went real well. I had a bit of an introduction to it this time last year and a little bit more this time."

Last year's backup center, Justin Geisinger, signed with Carolina, and veteran guard Pete Kendall, who had started at center earlier in his career, has not signed and is unlikely to return. Young lineman Will Montgomery has tried snapping, too, but if Jansen can master the skill, his chances of sticking around and remaining active for each game will increase.

"We're just trying to make sure that we can cover all of our bases," Zorn said. "Jon's a very versatile lineman. Some of the younger guys can't function with some of the [line] calls that we have to make against our defensive team. Jon can do that, so he's in there. Jon has done a great job of saying, 'I want to start, but [beyond that] I want to be a part of this team.' He's played all three positions already out there."

LINK http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/03/redskins-map-out-plans-for-orakpo/

[shally]

This comes from the Washington Times

Jansen at center

Jon Jansen, the Redskins' starting right tackle most of the past 10 seasons, received some time at center in relief of Casey Rabach.

Jansen struggled during a stint at guard in practice after he was benched for Stephon Heyer in September. But at 33 and understanding that he might be a backup this season, Jansen is more accommodating to the move.

"I'm a man of many talents," Jansen said. "We just want to take a look at it and see if I can play more than one position. I think it went real well. I had a bit of an introduction to it this time last year and a little bit more this time."

Last year's backup center, Justin Geisinger, signed with Carolina, and veteran guard Pete Kendall, who had started at center earlier in his career, has not signed and is unlikely to return. Young lineman Will Montgomery has tried snapping, too, but if Jansen can master the skill, his chances of sticking around and remaining active for each game will increase.

"We're just trying to make sure that we can cover all of our bases," Zorn said. "Jon's a very versatile lineman. Some of the younger guys can't function with some of the [line] calls that we have to make against our defensive team. Jon can do that, so he's in there. Jon has done a great job of saying, 'I want to start, but [beyond that] I want to be a part of this team.' He's played all three positions already out there."

LINK http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/03/redskins-map-out-plans-for-orakpo/


despite the brave front put up by all, i would think it is a real stretch to believe that jansen can provide any quality minutes at center.. in fact, i am going to be royally p****d if they let ed williams go because they hope that jansen can provide help at center.. at least last year when they let crummey go, they had kendall and geisinger who had both played som ecenter before.. if they are counting on jansen, that is simply foolish.

besides, we need to develop a plan for next year when rabach will have likely been used up himself

[BurgundyNGold]

despite the brave front put up by all, i would think it is a real stretch to believe that jansen can provide any quality minutes at center.. in fact, i am going to be royally p****d if they let ed williams go because they hope that jansen can provide help at center.. at least last year when they let crummey go, they had kendall and geisinger who had both played som ecenter before.. if they are counting on jansen, that is simply foolish.

besides, we need to develop a plan for next year when rabach will have likely been used up himself
Agreed. This team gets young OL talent that ends up on other teams' rosters (Harvey, Crummey) far too often for my tastes.

[firehawk157]

Agreed. This team gets young OL talent that ends up on other teams' rosters (Harvey, Crummey) far too often for my tastes.
The fact that our OL reserves are constantly getting raided by other teams bodes well though. Yes, we lost that particular person by it would seem we have a fairly good eye for OL talent.

[BurgundyNGold]

The fact that our OL reserves are constantly getting raided by other teams bodes well though. Yes, we lost that particular person by it would seem we have a fairly good eye for OL talent.
Yes and no. A good enough eye to spot and pick up decent OL reserves but not a good eye when it comes to keeping those young players on the roster and developing them. I don't think that we can blame the FO for players that the coaching staff decides not to protect by keeping them on the 53 man squad.

[bergiemoore]

Yes and no. A good enough eye to spot and pick up decent OL reserves but not a good eye when it comes to keeping those young players on the roster and developing them. I don't think that we can blame the FO for players that the coaching staff decides not to protect by keeping them on the 53 man squad.

I think that by keeping Fabini, the FO enabled a coaching staff that loves it some vets to squander what it had in Crummey as well as stunting the growth of Rinehart last season. By giving Jansen that ill advised contract extension, this FO limited their flexibility with the OLine roster. The FO deserves the lion's share of the blame for roster moves. They clearly didn't consider this coaching staff's opinions when negotiating with Denver for Cutler or when trying to trade up for Sanchez.

[AliBabba]

I think that by keeping Fabini, the FO enabled a coaching staff that loves it some vets to squander what it had in Crummey as well as stunting the growth of Rinehart last season. By giving Jansen that ill advised contract extension, this FO limited their flexibility with the OLine roster. The FO deserves the lion's share of the blame for roster moves. They clearly didn't consider this coaching staff's opinions when negotiating with Denver for Cutler or when trying to trade up for Sanchez.
Jansen and Fabini's contracts were the first thing I thought of too when it came to why we let Crummey walk ...this year it will be Jansen again if Edwin Williams is gone

[BurgundyNGold]

I think that by keeping Fabini, the FO enabled a coaching staff that loves it some vets to squander what it had in Crummey as well as stunting the growth of Rinehart last season. By giving Jansen that ill advised contract extension, this FO limited their flexibility with the OLine roster. The FO deserves the lion's share of the blame for roster moves. They clearly didn't consider this coaching staff's opinions when negotiating with Denver for Cutler or when trying to trade up for Sanchez.
True about the Jansen contract but it was the coaches who kept Fabini, not the FO. I put the Harvey and Crummey losses squarely on the shoulders of Buges.

[bergiemoore]

True about the Jansen contract but it was the coaches who kept Fabini, not the FO. I put the Harvey and Crummey losses squarely on the shoulders of Buges.

I don't buy it. Coaches should have input into player and personnel decisions, but at the end of the day, the FO decides the final 53. Someone in the FO should have sat Buges down and explained to him that he can't horde veteran linemen and still keep the young talent in the building and that the long term needs of the team outweigh his need to have multiple vet backup linemen as a security blanket. That, though, would require some managerial acumen, which has thus far been conspicuously absent from this FO.

[skinsfan36]

despite the brave front put up by all, i would think it is a real stretch to believe that jansen can provide any quality minutes at center.. in fact, i am going to be royally p****d if they let ed williams go because they hope that jansen can provide help at center.. at least last year when they let crummey go, they had kendall and geisinger who had both played som ecenter before.. if they are counting on jansen, that is simply foolish.

besides, we need to develop a plan for next year when rabach will have likely been used up himself

+1 they need to keep a young backup center whether that be williams or montgomery

[shally]

+1 they need to keep a young backup center whether that be williams or montgomery

williams is a natural center, not sure how much montgomery has played the position.. if he has, no problem

really heart warming story on Ed Williams in the WaPo.. if i wasnt pulling for him to make the team before this, i sure am now..

[HanburgerBum]

Yea, but the minute his brushing with the salary cap starts to affect the bottomline, he will try a different approach. While I am of the opinion he doesn't care, he does care about his perception of caring. I've come to believe the whole "I am a fan" crap is just one of his marketing gimmicks.


If you meant by "he doesn't care" that Snyder doesn't care whether the Skins win or lose so long as his bottomline is robust, I got to disagree. I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Snyder doesn't care. If that were true, why would the team be bumping up against the cap every year. Snyder could be spending considerably less by avoiding expensive free agents and signing only mid-level ones and still giving a perception of caring.

I am just as frustrated as you are about the Skins lack of success, but I think it to be unfair to question Snyder's motives--competence, yes, but not motives. He just happens to be someone who owns a very expensive toy and has a very difficult time refraining from constantly tinkering with it.

Hopefully, at some point, he would learn how to be a great owner like Jack Kent Cooke, who spared no expense, hired the right professionals and left them alone to work their magic. When, and if, that happens, Snyder will also learn that success on the field is actually better for the bottomline than making splashes with expensive free agent signings.

[BurgundyNGold]

If you meant by "he doesn't care" that Snyder doesn't care whether the Skins win or lose so long as his bottomline is robust, I got to disagree. I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Snyder doesn't care. If that were true, why would the team be bumping up against the cap every year. Snyder could be spending considerably less by avoiding expensive free agents and signing only mid-level ones and still giving a perception of caring.

I am just as frustrated as you are about the Skins lack of success, but I think it to be unfair to question Snyder's motives--competence, yes, but not motives. He just happens to be someone who owns a very expensive toy and has a very difficult time refraining from constantly tinkering with it.

Hopefully, at some point, he would learn how to be a great owner like Jack Kent Cooke, who spared no expense, hired the right professionals and left them alone to work their magic. When, and if, that happens, Snyder will also learn that success on the field is actually better for the bottomline than making splashes with expensive free agent signings.
Because his model for generating maximum revenue requires splashy signings and big names. Also, Danny will never, ever be a JKC owner. His ego won't allow it.

Here is my hypothesis on that:

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=1220181&postcount=20

[akhhorus]

Because his model for generating maximum revenue requires splashy signings and big names. Also, Danny will never, ever be a JKC owner. His ego won't allow it.

Here is my hypothesis on that:

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=1220181&postcount=20

There's another problem with HB's theory: Snyder has to spend 86.4% of the salary cap every year(there's a 'floor' with the cap ceiling), so he has to spend a minimum 106 million on player salaries(cap charged salaries). So, a theory that 'Snyder clearly wants to win since he's spending near the cap every year' really doesn't have much validity since the difference is only about 20 million this year because the minimum and the max. Yes, he did shell out a ton for Haynesworth and Hall, but he can dump both next year if there's no cap and their contracts are scaled out in weird ways.

[HanburgerBum]

Because his model for generating maximum revenue requires splashy signings and big names. Also, Danny will never, ever be a JKC owner. His ego won't allow it.

Here is my hypothesis on that:

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?
p=1220181&postcount=20


As to your theory, what about human nature? I think 99% of human beings want to "win" at whatever they do. When the team wins, everything is right with the world. The fans are happy and will spend more money to buy tickets and merchandise. Snyder can strut around and take the credit. Plus, a winning franchise has more value than a losing franchise. So, it just makes no sense for Snyder not to care about winning.

I do agree with you about the size of Snyder's ego. He is a self-made billionaire and he apparently thinks he knows best when it comes to running any business.

I do think it takes a lot of self-restraint not to interfere with the football decisions when one is a NFL owner. After all, it is an expensive toy you just paid for. Why wouldn't you want to play with it? Would you or I be able to refrain from meddling if we were in Snyder's position? The truth is that I don't know.

I also believe you are probably right that the only thing that will change Snyder's behavior is a downturn in the revenue he generates. And, I think such a downturn may arrive quicker than anyone would expect. Aside from the economic slowdown, Redskins fan are getting fed up with the product on the field and the expense/hassle of attending the game. Plus, 90,000+ are too big a capacity, thus making tickets readily available. Are you ready for a TV blockout of home games, because I think that's coming within 5 years?

[Hr fan]

....welll, firing Vinny would lift a lot of spirits i bet...

Treating a symptom and not the problem.

[shally]

Treating a symptom and not the problem.

yeah, but sometimes amputation is needed to remedy the results of the problem...

[dj_stouty]

Don't worry, we can win every game this season 3-0!!



ugh...


Assuming our kicker is even remotely accurate. lol

[Hr fan]

I don't buy it. Coaches should have input into player and personnel decisions, but at the end of the day, the FO decides the final 53. Someone in the FO should have sat Buges down and explained to him that he can't horde veteran linemen and still keep the young talent in the building and that the long term needs of the team outweigh his need to have multiple vet backup linemen as a security blanket. That, though, would require some managerial acumen, which has thus far been conspicuously absent from this FO.

Sad to say, Buges seems to have reached the stage where he buys no green bananas.

[shally]

Sad to say, Buges seems to have reached the stage where he buys no green bananas.

yeah. more like 3 day old bread...

[Hr fan]

yeah, but sometimes amputation is needed to remedy the results of the problem...

Agree, and if you start at the wrist and end at the neck there will be rejoicing lol.

[SkinsGuru]

Source: (http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Williams_Plays__Weight__ing_Game_37086.jsp)

“I weigh 385,” Williams said. “So it’s going well. I’m about 10 pounds away from my weight when I came out of college.”

Williams was in excess of 400 pounds when he signed with the Redskins on April 24.

Since then, he has steadily lost weight as he works his way back into football shape.

Would love for Williams to get back to even where he was with the Bills. The last year there before he got hurt, people were saying he finally came into his own . . . even a solid backup would be nice . . .

[shally]

Source: (http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Williams_Plays__Weight__ing_Game_37086.jsp)



Would love for Williams to get back to even where he was with the Bills. The last year there before he got hurt, people were saying he finally came into his own . . . even a solid backup would be nice . . .


talk about playing with "house money"... even if he is a reliable back up what a coup that would be..

[firehawk157]

talk about playing with "house money"... even if he is a reliable back up what a coup that would be..
You have to wonder about his conditioning too though. You have to be in great shape to continuously lug around 375 pounds.

[shally]

You have to wonder about his conditioning too though. You have to be in great shape to continuously lug around 375 pounds.

he is a very large man to begin with.. but i suspect over the past year his energy and activity level had to be pretty low

then again, look at Shaq.. it might not be 375, but he is no lightweight

[firehawk157]

Source: (http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Williams_Plays__Weight__ing_Game_37086.jsp)



Would love for Williams to get back to even where he was with the Bills. The last year there before he got hurt, people were saying he finally came into his own . . . even a solid backup would be nice . . .
On the Redskins article you linked, they have a video of him and DAMN, his shoulders are about 4 feet wide!

[SkinsGuru]

On the Redskins article you linked, they have a video of him and DAMN, his shoulders are about 4 feet wide!

He is one GINORMOUS human being ! ! ! !

[Patrick]

Mike William may end up being the biggest story of the off-season. This guy makes the team and ends up playing ..... whoa

[shally]

Mike William may end up being the biggest story of the off-season. This guy makes the team and ends playing ..... whoa

if that is true, then my hat is off to the front office for getting Dockery to return, and encouraging him to bring Williams along

we slam the front office with regularity hereabouts, but that would certainly be an example of our front office out smarting the rest of the league-- if it turns out he is roster worthy.. anything beyond that would simply be incredible.. if he just makes the roster and is a quality reserve, he has to be comeback player of the year.. if he can start, they will have to rename the award the Williams-Lazarus Award.. too much to hope for right now, but all you can say is, So far, So Good !!!

[Patrick]

if that is true, then my hat is off to the front office for getting Dockery to return, and encouraging him to bring Williams along

we slam the front office with regularity hereabouts, but that would certainly be an example of our front office out smarting the rest of the league-- if it turns out he is roster worthy.. anything beyond that would simply be incredible.. if he just makes the roster and is a quality reserve, he has to be comeback player of the year.. if he can start, they will have to rename the award the Williams-Lazarus Award.. too much to hope for right now, but all you can say is, So far, So Good !!!

Agree 100% about too much to hope for .......right now ....... but I do have my fingers crossed. AND if it turns out for the better - I'll be first in-line to give WHOEVER the credit they deserve including VinnyDan.

[Moe]

if that is true, then my hat is off to the front office for getting Dockery to return, and encouraging him to bring Williams along

we slam the front office with regularity hereabouts, but that would certainly be an example of our front office out smarting the rest of the league-- if it turns out he is roster worthy.. anything beyond that would simply be incredible.. if he just makes the roster and is a quality reserve, he has to be comeback player of the year.. if he can start, they will have to rename the award the Williams-Lazarus Award.. too much to hope for right now, but all you can say is, So far, So Good !!!

This is good news and now with Big Mike and Jeremy Bridges in the fold, suddnely the o-line has some interesting options to work with. I"m not ready to give the FO credit for what seems to be dumb luck on the Williams/Dockery connection but at the end of the day if this team is better than I don't care how they discovered/stumbled onto it.

[firehawk157]

if that is true, then my hat is off to the front office for getting Dockery to return, and encouraging him to bring Williams along

we slam the front office with regularity hereabouts, but that would certainly be an example of our front office out smarting the rest of the league-- if it turns out he is roster worthy.. anything beyond that would simply be incredible.. if he just makes the roster and is a quality reserve, he has to be comeback player of the year.. if he can start, they will have to rename the award the Williams-Lazarus Award.. too much to hope for right now, but all you can say is, So far, So Good !!!
I don't think it's a case of us having some genius plan, it sort of all fell into our laps. Dockery fell into our laps and he brought Williams who was forgotten by everybody.

[shally]

This is good news and now with Big Mike and Jeremy Bridges in the fold, suddnely the o-line has some interesting options to work with. I"m not ready to give the FO credit for what seems to be dumb luck on the Williams/Dockery connection but at the end of the day if this team is better than I don't care how they discovered/stumbled onto it.

there is no dumb luck.. this happened because someone was actually thinking, for a change

I don't think it's a case of us having some genius plan, it sort of all fell into our laps. Dockery fell into our laps and he brought Williams who was forgotten by everybody.

nope.. credit, where credit is due.. no matter how this turns out, the front office gets positive marks for being pro-active

we praise them for finding UDFA's, this is the same thing.. "money for nothing"..lol

[colkurtz]

"The OL is fine." Heard that before

I think the FO is hoping that by throwing a bunch of UDFA, has-beens, never-was, MR big-body,etc that they will get a keeper or two.

I think the team has 4-5 mill in cap space but I beleive they are holding in case they need an emergency signing like last year with Jason Taylor.

I give the OL a chance to improve. Perhaps one new guy will excell. Maybe Jansen, Raybach will last one more year. I think this Ol will be ok for the first 8 games, then Colt will be running for his life....

[shally]

"The OL is fine." Heard that before

I think the FO is hoping that by throwing a bunch of UDFA, has-beens, never-was, MR big-body,etc that they will get a keeper or two.

I think the team has 4-5 mill in cap space but I beleive they are holding in case they need an emergency signing like last year with Jason Taylor.

I give the OL a chance to improve. Perhaps one new guy will excell. Maybe Jansen, Raybach will last one more year. I think this Ol will be ok for the first 8 games, then Colt will be running for his life....

maybe.. i actually think the O line is going to be far improved this year, unless we get hit with a cluster of injuries the same way Jax was decimated last year.. no hope if that happens..

this year, we sink or swim based upon how well Campbell and the WR's progress.. and whether we get off to a fast start based upon Zorn/Smith's learning curves.. i believe that Buge's will get the O line primed for a good year.. i just dont know what our Offensive "brain trust" is capable of right now...

[firehawk157]

maybe.. i actually think the O line is going to be far improved this year, unless we get hit with a cluster of injuries the same way Jax was decimated last year.. no hope if that happens..

this year, we sink or swim based upon how well Campbell and the WR's progress.. and whether we get off to a fast start based upon Zorn/Smith's learning curves.. i believe that Buge's will get the O line primed for a good year.. i just dont know what our Offensive "brain trust" is capable of right now...
I rewatched a bunch of games from last year and I've come around on Campbell a bit. Even during the slump, he's shown a wiggle in the pocket, the ability to keep eyes down the field while evading and a decent amount of accuracy. He held onto the ball too long a bunch of times and was hesitant (hence the execution speeches Zorn always gave), but I think he'll progress a good deal more this year. When he makes quicker decisions, a lot of that pressure will be negated.

[saratogan]

The old adage, the game of football is won in the trenches is still true.

The Redskin's front office made, what I believe to be, significant and substantive changes that should produce positive results. This occurred on both sides, the offense and defense.

On the DL, Hayneworth, if he is as good as he was in his conference in our conference, he will be an all-pro. It can only help the effectiveness of the rest of the line. Hopefully, Griffin will be, and stay, healthy this year. Teh young backups (Golston, Alexander) should benefit. You are talking two huge men in the center. Griffin often occupied two people. You know Haynesworth will. My issue is whether Carter will finally show he was worth the cost. He must greatly increase his sack numbers. Then, we have the other DE. Who knows what will finally evolve at that postion. However, Haynesworth should make any good DE look much better. Many things derive from an effective front four - field position, top, turnovers, etc.

On the OL, it appears the front office actually spent quality time figuring out a strategy that may well pay off for a couple of years. D. Thomas was considered the best guard in the NFL when he left for big money. Things did not work out for him. Maybe, the quality of Chris Samuels and the steadiness of Rabach had something to do with his success.. Maybe it was also the Redskins scheme. He should plug the spot and, hopefully, return to all-pro stature. The RT position is interesting in that M Williams is looking each week to be deadly serious about a return. If he continues with his weight loss regime, with his strengthening regime, and with his mental preparation, he could be a real sleeper and a big bonus to the line. Bridges may, or may not, beat him out. Jansen's cut was a little surprising, as he was supposedly learning center duties, as well. He looked like he was finally healthy and had lost about 20 lbs in the off-season. I really thought he was going to be in the mix. My best to him. If the RT does get a quality person and the whole line stays realitively healthy all year, then I would expect protection for Campbell to dramatically improve. If so, we will see a large improvement in points scored. Further, we will see more dominant running game in critical situations.

The POTENTIAL for line play - on both sides - to significantly improve is there. Training camp and pre-season will provide some answers on this.

For Firehawk157:
"I rewatched a bunch of games from last year and I've come around on Campbell a bit. Even during the slump, he's shown a wiggle in the pocket, the ability to keep eyes down the field while evading and a decent amount of accuracy. He held onto the ball too long a bunch of times and was hesitant (hence the execution speeches Zorn always gave), but I think he'll progress a good deal more this year. When he makes quicker decisions, a lot of that pressure will be negated"

(Don't know the proper way to quote another's comments). I agree with you. I would add, it seemed our receivers were not always where they were expected to be either. Give Campbell the proper protection, add to that another year with the same system, improvements on his release technique, and offense having a full year learning the WC offensive passing game plan, we should produce positive results (i.e. TOP, 3rd down conversion % improvement, and - most importantly - red zone production improvement). We really scored poorly in those key metrics. I believe Campbell can do it.

There is real potential for the Redskins to do exceedingly well. Time shall tell.

[firehawk157]

The old adage, the game of football is won in the trenches is still true.

The Redskin's front office made, what I believe to be, significant and substantive changes that should produce positive results. This occurred on both sides, the offense and defense.

On the DL, Hayneworth, if he is as good as he was in his conference in our conference, he will be an all-pro. It can only help the effectiveness of the rest of the line. Hopefully, Griffin will be, and stay, healthy this year. Teh young backups (Golston, Alexander) should benefit. You are talking two huge men in the center. Griffin often occupied two people. You know Haynesworth will. My issue is whether Carter will finally show he was worth the cost. He must greatly increase his sack numbers. Then, we have the other DE. Who knows what will finally evolve at that postion. However, Haynesworth should make any good DE look much better. Many things derive from an effective front four - field position, top, turnovers, etc.

If we can get another 10 sacks this year from Carter, I'll be happy. He's a speed rusher who thrives on getting around the tackle and last year, without a push up the middle, all the QB had to do was step up. This year, hopefully, with Haynesworth, he'll get more sacks because QBs will be forced back.

On the OL, it appears the front office actually spent quality time figuring out a strategy that may well pay off for a couple of years. D. Thomas was considered the best guard in the NFL when he left for big money. Things did not work out for him. Maybe, the quality of Chris Samuels and the steadiness of Rabach had something to do with his success.. Maybe it was also the Redskins scheme. He should plug the spot and, hopefully, return to all-pro stature. The RT position is interesting in that M Williams is looking each week to be deadly serious about a return. If he continues with his weight loss regime, with his strengthening regime, and with his mental preparation, he could be a real sleeper and a big bonus to the line. Bridges may, or may not, beat him out. Jansen's cut was a little surprising, as he was supposedly learning center duties, as well. He looked like he was finally healthy and had lost about 20 lbs in the off-season. I really thought he was going to be in the mix. My best to him. If the RT does get a quality person and the whole line stays realitively healthy all year, then I would expect protection for Campbell to dramatically improve. If so, we will see a large improvement in points scored. Further, we will see more dominant running game in critical situations.

The POTENTIAL for line play - on both sides - to significantly improve is there. Training camp and pre-season will provide some answers on this.

I, nor anyone else, never thought Dockery was an all-pro or the best guard in the NFL. He was a good guard though and IMO, having him back is really good. I think he played better than Pete Kendall and I hope being next to Samuels again will bring that along.

(Don't know the proper way to quote another's comments). I agree with you. I would add, it seemed our receivers were not always where they were expected to be either. Give Campbell the proper protection, add to that another year with the same system, improvements on his release technique, and offense having a full year learning the WC offensive passing game plan, we should produce positive results (i.e. TOP, 3rd down conversion % improvement, and - most importantly - red zone production improvement). We really scored poorly in those key metrics. I believe Campbell can do it.

There is real potential for the Redskins to do exceedingly well. Time shall tell.

I think a lot of Campbell's success will depend on Thomas emerging as a #2. I have high hopes for him and by all accounts, he's really taking it serious now.

[hogs86]

Just a little update on Williams. He is now saying he wants to get down to 345. This guy just may be the biggest loser. Just my 2 cents if he does he will be the skins starting tackle sounds like the guy is on a mission.

Redskins’ Mike Williams Down To 380 Pounds

Posted by Aaron Wilson on June 1, 2009, 9:33 p.m. EDT
Washington Redskins hefty offensive tackle Mike Williams, the former Buffalo Bills first-round bust, told Barry Svrluga of the Washington Post that he has gotten down to 380 pounds.

Per the report, the robust lineman weighed as much as 450 pounds earlier this year.

Williams’ target weight is the 345 pounds he carried around at the University of Texas.

Wiliams is competing with Stephon Heyer, the projected starter, and Jeremy Bridges for the right tackle job.

“I’m not a guy to get into politics,” Williams said. “We’re just gonna get out there, and we’re gonna push each other. I know me and Stephon gonna push each other.

“He’s gonna be the best right tackle he can be, and I am as well, and we’ll let the coaches decide who they want in there. Can’t play politics.”

Link http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/06/01/redskins-mike-williams-down-to-380-pounds/

[colkurtz]

I'd say Williams has to get down to 345 or less to be able to make it through the season. Above that weight and he is clearly not in NFL football shape for a 16 game season.

I'm just wondering if he is another candidate for our Cinderella, Legion of the Awful. I'm rooting for the guy - just I did for some of the others like McCune, mr L, etc

[shally]

I'd say Williams has to get down to 345 or less to be able to make it through the season. Above that weight and he is clearly not in NFL football shape for a 16 game season.

I'm just wondering if he is another candidate for our Cinderella, Legion of the Awful. I'm rooting for the guy - just I did for some of the others like McCune, mr L, etc


he is a legion unto himself.. the dude needs at least 3 squares in BnG's
page...

[flave1969]

Even if Williams gets down to 345, are we not still talking about a player who is one of the bigger (both figuratively and literally) draft busts of this decade. As I recall his level of play was simply not good enough anyway in Buffalo to last in the league irrespective of weight. The man has not played in the NFL since 2006.

Why do we consistently pin our hopes on these kinds of players. He is just like all countless other plug ins we annually hope to get something out of despite the career evidence before us.

The competition we have at RT scares me stiff and is built on ifs, buts and maybes. When we signed Randy from the Jets we knew exactly what we were getting based on the only thing that matters, his level of play on the football field. By comparison Bridges, Heyer and Williams have entirely to much to prove for that to be the competition heading into camp for my liking.

[firehawk157]

Even if Williams gets down to 345, are we not still talking about a player who is one of the bigger (both figuratively and literally) draft busts of this decade. As I recall his level of play was simply not good enough anyway in Buffalo to last in the league irrespective of weight. The man has not played in the NFL since 2006.

Why do we consistently pin our hopes on these kinds of players. He is just like all countless other plug ins we annually hope to get something out of despite the career evidence before us.

The competition we have at RT scares me stiff and is built on ifs, buts and maybes. When we signed Randy from the Jets we knew exactly what we were getting based on the only thing that matters, his level of play on the football field. By comparison Bridges, Heyer and Williams have entirely to much to prove for that to be the competition heading into camp for my liking.
It's easy. We get excited because there's nothing to lose. If he doesn't pan out and what all happened? We are back where we started. It's like finding a lottery ticket on the ground. You scratch it and briefly hope you get the jackpot. If you don't, well, you didn't lose a dollar. If you do, well, hot damn! You won the jackpot!

Regardless, by all accounts, his problem was motivation and not talent. He got that huge contract from the Bills and mailed it in from there. He's lost something like 70 pounds in a couple of months so it appears he has motivation now. So if he finally acquired the last piece of the puzzle (admittedly the biggest piece), we essentially have a 4th overall pick for nothing. If not, well, it didn't cost us anything.

The competition at RT is probably healthier than it was last year. I don't like Stephon Heyer there, I don't think he's strong enough. But Jeremy Bridges might be legit and Mike Williams is intriguing. Either way, Stephon Heyer is probably better than Jon Jansen at this point so we really aren't going into 09 any worse (at RT) than 08.

[Patrick]

It's easy. We get excited because there's nothing to lose. If he doesn't pan out and what all happened? We are back where we started. It's like finding a lottery ticket on the ground. You scratch it and briefly hope you get the jackpot. If you don't, well, you didn't lose a dollar. If you do, well, hot damn! You won the jackpot!

Regardless, by all accounts, his problem was motivation and not talent. He got that huge contract from the Bills and mailed it in from there. He's lost something like 70 pounds in a couple of months so it appears he has motivation now. So if he finally acquired the last piece of the puzzle (admittedly the biggest piece), we essentially have a 4th overall pick for nothing. If not, well, it didn't cost us anything.

The competition at RT is probably healthier than it was last year. I don't like Stephon Heyer there, I don't think he's strong enough. But Jeremy Bridges might be legit and Mike Williams is intriguing. Either way, Stephon Heyer is probably better than Jon Jansen at this point so we really aren't going into 09 any worse (at RT) than 08.

The kid has spent the off season at Redskins Park and you think he hasn't been working on the areas he needs to. His improvement is probably a big factor in why Jansen was released.
Williams is the WILD card and although HIS target weight is 345 - I think he's playing for the Skins (barring injuries) even if he's around 360 +/-.
Bridges is multi position and will make the team giving it the much needed depth and more than just a body.
IMO RT is not looking as weak as most people want to believe. Then again - I bet this is THE position that is looked at very carefully durning training camp.

[Moe]

Even if Williams gets down to 345, are we not still talking about a player who is one of the bigger (both figuratively and literally) draft busts of this decade. As I recall his level of play was simply not good enough anyway in Buffalo to last in the league irrespective of weight. The man has not played in the NFL since 2006.

Why do we consistently pin our hopes on these kinds of players. He is just like all countless other plug ins we annually hope to get something out of despite the career evidence before us..

He proved that he wasn't worth the high draft status nor the big contract that Buffalo gave him, but that doesn't mean he can't help this team.

The competition we have at RT scares me stiff and is built on ifs, buts and maybes. When we signed Randy from the Jets we knew exactly what we were getting based on the only thing that matters, his level of play on the football field. By comparison Bridges, Heyer and Williams have entirely to much to prove for that to be the competition heading into camp for my liking.

This would be true if they had drafted a rookie RT as well. Heyer is a young guy who has shown improvement. Williams could be a great reclaimation project, but if not then what has the team lost in taking a chance on him? Bridges is a sleeper in this as he has talent and experience across the line so at a minimum he's improved the depth, but could steal a starting spot. I realize that I tend to be more of a glass half-full type of fan but the team has succeeded in getting younger and improving it's depth on o-line, which was a hyoooooooge issue last year.

[firehawk157]

He proved that he wasn't worth the high draft status nor the big contract that Buffalo gave him, but that doesn't mean he can't help this team.



This would be true if they had drafted a rookie RT as well. Heyer is a young guy who has shown improvement. Williams could be a great reclaimation project, but if not then what has the team lost in taking a chance on him? Bridges is a sleeper in this as he has talent and experience across the line so at a minimum he's improved the depth, but could steal a starting spot. I realize that I tend to be more of a glass half-full type of fan but the team has succeeded in getting younger and improving it's depth on o-line, which was a hyoooooooge issue last year.
The line is definitely better (on both sides) heading into 09 than it was heading into 08. This should bode well, but as always, an injury can really derail a season.

[flave1969]

It's easy. We get excited because there's nothing to lose. If he doesn't pan out and what all happened? We are back where we started. It's like finding a lottery ticket on the ground. You scratch it and briefly hope you get the jackpot. If you don't, well, you didn't lose a dollar. If you do, well, hot damn! You won the jackpot!


Regardless, by all accounts, his problem was motivation and not talent. He got that huge contract from the Bills and mailed it in from there. He's lost something like 70 pounds in a couple of months so it appears he has motivation now. So if he finally acquired the last piece of the puzzle (admittedly the biggest piece), we essentially have a 4th overall pick for nothing. If not, well, it didn't cost us anything.

I just do not see things this way anymore with the Redskins.

You say there is nothing to lose but that is not true at all. The FO can turn round and on paper say they are legitimately addressing the problem at RT, but they are not. Quantity does not equal quality in the NFL, top level scouting is the only quality control that means a crap in this league.

You know we have a to and fro about every TO like locker room cancer that becomes available, the thing is these guys all perform. I think it is just as poisonous for a team to pay big bucks and get zero performance in return and that is what we have with Williams. I can say go on Williams make me a believer but I would prefer to say go on Mr 3rd Rounder win that starting spot play for that big contract in 4 years time. That makes football sense.

Now I realise that it is contradictory given the Williams was a high draft choice by then advocating that we should have drafted a lineman high but there is a big difference. Williams is a known quantity who has a series of black marks against his name, one of them is that his performance was not starter material, another is he has not been in the league for three years. The team is high on his work ethic and thats great but are you really comfortable given his background with him taking the place of what should have been a live, eager rookie. As far as I am concerned and all words have pointed to this they did not address the position because they were largely comfortable with what they had. That is of no comfort to me given this teams record.


The competition at RT is probably healthier than it was last year. I don't like Stephon Heyer there, I don't think he's strong enough. But Jeremy Bridges might be legit and Mike Williams is intriguing. Either way, Stephon Heyer is probably better than Jon Jansen at this point so we really aren't going into 09 any worse (at RT) than 08.

I agree about Heyer, I simply believe he is not up to the job. Saying Heyer is better than Jansen at this point does not say much considering he could not win back his spot from him all year. The rest of your quote sums up the problem we have, Bridges MIGHT BE LEGIT, but how legit is a player who has gone from 14 to 10 and then 4 starts in the past 3 years. It raises serious character issues and I am not sure the coaching here is strong enough to put him on the right path.

My problems with this situation go way deeper than just the bodies we have it is about the cavalier manner in which we try and build what is essentially the thing that will make everything else work. We have a smoke and mirrors approach that gives an impression that the glass may be half full, I'm sorry I believe it is actually empty in this case.

I really hope I am wrong I do but we need a strong fan voice to start calling the FO out because this is not a successful franchise right now and time and again its practices have proven the root of our problems.

[hogs86]

So this is what a 385 pound man looks like. lol

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/dadssportsroom/williamssteinberg2.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/dadssportsroom/williamssteinberg3.jpg

[shally]

look at the size of those arms !!!

[OoLak]

look at the size of those arms !!!

With those gloves on his hand is as big as a bogger's head.

And I don't know if Mike Williams starts, plays backup, or makes the squad (I think he will at least be on the roster) but I am suprised danny boy didn't milk this into some comcast reality tv show/documentary. This is the biggest/longest running story of the offseason.

I'd call it '4th and Wide'
j/k good luck to 'Tiny' Mike losing the rest of that weight.

[LATrueRedskin]

Damn, Mike Williams has lost some serious weight. Good for him. Hopefully he'll turn into a player.

[skinfanjon]

Yea, but the minute his brushing with the salary cap starts to affect the bottomline, he will try a different approach. While I am of the opinion he doesn't care, he does care about his perception of caring. I've come to believe the whole "I am a fan" crap is just one of his marketing gimmicks.

I would agree, but I just can't get the image of him jumping up and down in the box after the "Monday Night Miracle" in Dallas out of my head. I don't think you can fake that. He's an idiot, but he was as elated as the rest of us at that moment. (Well, maybe not quite....I sprinted threw the neighborhood screaming the fight song at the top of my lungs, but you get the idea;))

[saratogan]

The brain thrust (oxymoronic statement for the Redskins front office based upon past years performances) must believe they have the talent along the line. But to be a fly on the wall inside the coaches meeting when discussing the OL would be a real treat.

1) Samuels (All-pro)
2) Dockery (considered the best guard when he left the Redskins, don't know what happened in Buffalo) I would think he would be as good.
3) Rabach, not an all-pro but durable and smart.
4) Thomas - big concern is whether he fully recovers from a dangerous injury. If so, then he one of the best at that position.
5) ?? RT - that is the issue. I really thought Jansen came to camp lighter, stronger and with a mental attitude to retain his starter role. Obviously, that is out. So, Mr. Bugel, what does your decades of experience tell you about Heyer, Williams, and Bridges? Something must be there for the team to let Jansen go.

RT is is the big story. Willliams is an interesting gambit. The upside potential is huge. The motivation is there. And so much of football is mental. If he pulls it off, it may be second biggest story for the Redskins this coming year. Bridges is a long shot, in my view. Both Williams and Bridges have a new system to learn. With Heyer now having a couple of years experience and his second year of learning the Z's WC offence it gives him a real edge. But he started as RT only 3 times. He started at LT, his normal position, 4 times. Heyer was penciled in as the starter last year, but he lost it due to an "injury" to Jansen and never - repeat - never got it back. Now, he did a helluva job against Strahan one time (did not allow a sack!), but the Redskins also had to give Heyer help (TE, play changes, blocking assignments, etc). He was beat around the corner a few times resulting in QB hurries and sacks in his other starts. He is learning and improving. He has proven that he can play, he must now prove he can be a starter.

I would find it hard for the Redskins to be still searching for a RT at this time, unless injuries force the issue. I think the brain thrust (had to use that term again) is comfortable with whom they have on the roster.

Geisinger, Rhinehart, et al - I do not know enough about them yet to tell if they are capable fill ins or future starters.

TC and pre-season will be very interesting to watch. And, to see who wins the RT spot. I think Williams and Heyer are really going to be pushing themselves for the "rights" to that position.

[shally]

The brain thrust (oxymoronic statement for the Redskins front office based upon past years performances) must believe they have the talent along the line. But to be a fly on the wall inside the coaches meeting when discussing the OL would be a real treat.

1) Samuels (All-pro)
2) Dockery (considered the best guard when he left the Redskins, don't know what happened in Buffalo) I would think he would be as good.
3) Rabach, not an all-pro but durable and smart.
4) Thomas - big concern is whether he fully recovers from a dangerous injury. If so, then he one of the best at that position.
5) ?? RT - that is the issue. I really thought Jansen came to camp lighter, stronger and with a mental attitude to retain his starter role. Obviously, that is out. So, Mr. Bugel, what does your decades of experience tell you about Heyer, Williams, and Bridges? Something must be there for the team to let Jansen go.

RT is is the big story. Willliams is an interesting gambit. The upside potential is huge. The motivation is there. And so much of football is mental. If he pulls it off, it may be second biggest story for the Redskins this coming year. Bridges is a long shot, in my view. Both Williams and Bridges have a new system to learn. With Heyer now having a couple of years experience and his second year of learning the Z's WC offence it gives him a real edge. But he started as RT only 3 times. He started at LT, his normal position, 4 times. Heyer was penciled in as the starter last year, but he lost it due to an "injury" to Jansen and never - repeat - never got it back. Now, he did a helluva job against Strahan one time (did not allow a sack!), but the Redskins also had to give Heyer help (TE, play changes, blocking assignments, etc). He was beat around the corner a few times resulting in QB hurries and sacks in his other starts. He is learning and improving. He has proven that he can play, he must now prove he can be a starter.

I would find it hard for the Redskins to be still searching for a RT at this time, unless injuries force the issue. I think the brain thrust (had to use that term again) is comfortable with whom they have on the roster.

Geisinger, Rhinehart, et al - I do not know enough about them yet to tell if they are capable fill ins or future starters.

TC and pre-season will be very interesting to watch. And, to see who wins the RT spot. I think Williams and Heyer are really going to be pushing themselves for the "rights" to that position.


geisinger is gone and signed with Carolina

[firehawk157]

Mike Williams down to 365 Bottom of the page (http://blog.redskins.com/2009/06/19/friday-june-19-mike-williams-actually-is-looking-for-a-chef/#continued)

[Patrick]

365 heading to AZ for pre training camp workout. MAN does this kid want it or what - I am so hoping he'll be the story of this pre-season. I think he's at an exceptable playing weight now - anymore reduction is a bonus for him. Now I just hope he hasn't lost any strength.

[firehawk157]

Yeah, he's right about there. Leonard Davis is at 370 and nobody calls him fat.

[JsMaViSd]

jesus if that is not determination i dont know what is. At this point you almost have to give him a spot just for this.

[shally]

365 heading to AZ for pre training camp workout. MAN does this kid want it or what - I am so hoping he'll be the story of this pre-season. I think he's at an exceptable playing weight now - anymore reduction is a bonus for him. Now I just hope he hasn't lost any strength.

stamina is the issue.. always has been.. whether it is 365 or 425, he needs to be able to play for 4 quarters

[firehawk157]

stamina is the issue.. always has been.. whether it is 365 or 425, he needs to be able to play for 4 quarters
If he's dropping weight like this, it bodes well for his stamina...

[shally]

If he's dropping weight like this, it bodes well for his stamina...

particularly since it is part of a conditioning program.. cautiously optimistic now

[Dolla Bill]

I really am pulling for the guy. I don't think he will be able to play LT again, just because of speed rushers, but at RT? He would be a monster.

[Patrick]

stamina is the issue.. always has been.. whether it is 365 or 425, he needs to be able to play for 4 quarters
I’m not sure about that BUT I know this – the guy is fighting for his career and seems to be using that for his motivation. Whatever it takes - IF this guy comes back and lives up to his potential then the Skins really made some headway in solidifying a weak era of this team. But then again – if you’re like so many who are hoping for a total implosion of this team – something turning positive is not what you’re hoping for huh?

[shally]

I’m not sure about that BUT I know this – the guy is fighting for his career and seems to be using that for his motivation. Whatever it takes - IF this guy comes back and lives up to his potential then the Skins really made some headway in solidifying a weak era of this team. But then again – if you’re like so many who are hoping for a total implosion of this team – something turning positive is not what you’re hoping for huh?

he is actually fighting for his life-- and i think he knows it..

i want it to work out. still too much of a fan to root against this team

[flave1969]

I’m not sure about that BUT I know this – the guy is fighting for his career and seems to be using that for his motivation. Whatever it takes - IF this guy comes back and lives up to his potential then the Skins really made some headway in solidifying a weak era of this team. But then again – if you’re like so many who are hoping for a total implosion of this team – something turning positive is not what you’re hoping for huh?

Please point out who wants a total implosion of this team. Personally there is nothing I would like more than to see my fears proved just that and a highly competitve deep run into the playoffs. Still not going to change my opinion that the patchwork attempt at building this line will likely be our downfall. I hope I am wrong, I hope Snyder/Cerrato come good.

[firehawk157]

Please point out who wants a total implosion of this team. Personally there is nothing I would like more than to see my fears proved just that and a highly competitve deep run into the playoffs. Still not going to change my opinion that the patchwork attempt at building this line will likely be our downfall. I hope I am wrong, I hope Snyder/Cerrato come good.
I've seen a lot of people who said they would gladly accept a 3-13 type of season if it means a real football guy is brought in. That's wanting a total implosion in my book.

[flave1969]

I've seen a lot of people who said they would gladly accept a 3-13 type of season if it means a real football guy is brought in. That's wanting a total implosion in my book.

Well if they said that, then they deserve what they get. I want to be proved wrong first and foremost and see us go 10-6 or better and make the playoffs.

I will admit I believe that continually finishing 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 does this franchise no good under the current management because it always feels we are 1 or 2 pieces away.
But 3 playoff appearences since Danny took over tells its story. I dont want 3-13 because that has proved nothing with this team, we have been 5-11 and 6-10 in recent history. Certainly we have been struggling at some point in each of the last 5 seasons, sometimes rallying others collapsing.

I will always point to the same thing. We have never built from the trenches up. We have a plug and play system that fails if our starters fall over. The best teams of recent years have been built to counter that and that is why they are successful, and why we are not as a franchise.

I want 16-0, expect 8-8 and will be upset if we go 3-13.

[firehawk157]

Well if they said that, then they deserve what they get. I want to be proved wrong first and foremost and see us go 10-6 or better and make the playoffs.

I will admit I believe that continually finishing 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 does this franchise no good under the current management because it always feels we are 1 or 2 pieces away.
But 3 playoff appearences since Danny took over tells its story. I dont want 3-13 because that has proved nothing with this team, we have been 5-11 and 6-10 in recent history. Certainly we have been struggling at some point in each of the last 5 seasons, sometimes rallying others collapsing.

I will always point to the same thing. We have never built from the trenches up. We have a plug and play system that fails if our starters fall over. The best teams of recent years have been built to counter that and that is why they are successful, and why we are not as a franchise.

I want 16-0, expect 8-8 and will be upset if we go 3-13.
I wasn't referring to you, I just know that people have said it.

[saratogan]

Interesting comments from everyone.

My personal take is, as follows:

Projected Starters:
Lt Samuels (All Pro)
RG Dockery (When he left Redskins considered all-Pro and top FA)
C Rabauch (Solid and leader)
RG Thomas (Very Solid - but injuries are a real issue)'
RT Up for Grabs (I think Willliams will be the real surprise here)

Backups: Bridges (Possible starter at RT), Heyer (Possible starter at RT and backup LT), Rinehart at guard (unproven - but one year of conditioning and learning the sytem will help him, with this pre-season telling us much about his growth), Batiste (?), Clarke (?), Montgomery (?), Riley (?), and Williams (?) round out the current list.

Games are won and lost in the trenches, is an old, but still, accurate adage about the game of football. The Redskins, have a solid group, if they stay healthy. Between Heyer, Williams, and Bridges we should see a servicable RT. I still think Williams has a chance to be a real surprise. Training camp will tell alot.

Training camp will provide alot of clues about the line and the quality of backups - or whether the FO goes after someone quickly who might be available. If that happens, then that will tell me Bugel and Zorn (with Cerrato's approval) know we have some problems heading into the season.
Don't forget we got Kendall late in the pre-season and he turned out to be a quality guard. It is a shame his knees were so banged up from all the years; I had hoped he would have stuck around as a backup. But then, was his release an indication that Bugel thought the young guys were ready to take over?

Oh how I would love to know Bugel's assessment to Zorn of the O=-Line!

[BSMKF]

Interesting comments from everyone.

My personal take is, as follows:

Projected Starters:
Lt Samuels (All Pro)
RG Dockery (When he left Redskins considered all-Pro and top FA)
C Rabauch (Solid and leader)
RG Thomas (Very Solid - but injuries are a real issue)'
RT Up for Grabs (I think Willliams will be the real surprise here)

Backups: Bridges (Possible starter at RT), Heyer (Possible starter at RT and backup LT), Rinehart at guard (unproven - but one year of conditioning and learning the sytem will help him, with this pre-season telling us much about his growth), Batiste (?), Clarke (?), Montgomery (?), Riley (?), and Williams (?) round out the current list.



To me it seems like we have a promising O-Line its kinda getting pumped up.

[Patrick]

It's been over two weeks since Mike Williams left for training in Arizona (@365#) ............ anyone heard or seen any reports on his progress?

[shally]

It's been over two weeks since Mike Williams left for training in Arizona (@365#) ............ anyone heard or seen any reports on his progress?

i didnt realize he had left.. not sure if the lack of scrutiny is good or bad.. sooner or later, it is all on him.

on the other hand, if he is actually training, that is a good thing, no matter what the format

[firehawk157]

It's been over two weeks since Mike Williams left for training in Arizona (@365#) ............ anyone heard or seen any reports on his progress?

I'm not too worried about it. If he can't make the team than we are right where we started from.

[Patrick]

I'm not too worried about it. If he can't make the team than we are right where we started from.
Not worried about it either - I was just wondering how his weight reductions was coming along.

[Oregonian]

Is it time to panic yet?

Accounts to this point from camp suggest that Mike Williams does not look good, and neither do Bridges, Dockery, or the O line in general.

Obviously camp is just starting but does anyone else have a bad feeling about this unit? Is it time to start looking for available veterans? Can Buges turn this situation around, or is he part of the problem?

[shally]

Is it time to panic yet?

Accounts to this point from camp suggest that Mike Williams does not look good, and neither do Bridges, Dockery, or the O line in general.

Obviously camp is just starting but does anyone else have a bad feeling about this unit? Is it time to start looking for available veterans? Can Buges turn this situation around, or is he part of the problem?

it was the weakest unit going into the off season.. and it still likely is..
but it is not yet time to panic.. let them work themselves into rhythm..

[flave1969]

it was the weakest unit going into the off season.. and it still likely is..
but it is not yet time to panic.. let them work themselves into rhythm..

The reporters over at ES are all saying that anything more than a 3 step drop is resulting in a sack or near sack. Only Rabach and Samuels are acquiting themselves well. It is going to be a long season if we do not pull this unit together fast.

[Patrick]

Is it time to panic yet?

Accounts to this point from camp suggest that Mike Williams does not look good, and neither do Bridges, Dockery, or the O line in general.

Obviously camp is just starting but does anyone else have a bad feeling about this unit? Is it time to start looking for available veterans? Can Buges turn this situation around, or is he part of the problem? Depends on which source you're refering too. I've read reports that say that Willlliams looks OK. Have not see anything on Doc or Bridges. Not worried at all till after the first ps-game. ......... Look at it as a positive and spin it like - the Skins D is going to be very dominating and make every OL look bad. ....;)

[Gravy]

Depends on which source you're refering too. I've read reports that say that Willlliams looks OK. Have not see anything on Doc or Bridges. Not worried at all till after the first ps-game. ......... Look at it as a positive and spin it like - the Skins D is going to be very dominating and make every OL look bad. ....;)

...Yep...if the 4 games they play in the pre-season has the opposing teams constantly in our back field getting sacks and disrupting play after play and sees our QB's running for their lives...than its time to worry

[Patrick]

...Yep...if the 4 games they play in the pre-season has the opposing teams constantly in our back field getting sacks and disrupting play after play and sees our QB's running for their lives...than its time to worry At this point it is what it is - seems to me that they'll have to work with what they have ...... or I guess the Skins can always offer some draft picks for borderline OL who are in their 30's. :rolleyes:....... Three days into training camp is a little early to declare crisis IMO

[Hrabanmaur]

I assume the offense is also running many more pass plays than run plays in order to get the offense fully installed. It's a lot easier to turn loose and rush the passer when you don't have to worry about the run. Still, these guys better start gelling soon and getting their act together. Otherwise, it will be a long season.

In other news, I think Furbini's still on the market... :smash:

[shally]

The reporters over at ES are all saying that anything more than a 3 step drop is resulting in a sack or near sack. Only Rabach and Samuels are acquiting themselves well. It is going to be a long season if we do not pull this unit together fast.

let's hope that other teams' offense experience the same degree of pressure..

[firehawk157]

let's hope that other teams' offense experience the same degree of pressure..
Also remember that 40% of the line is new and every holdover is playing alongside of somebody that they haven't. It'll take a couple of weeks, at least, before they start to gel.

[shally]

Also remember that 40% of the line is new and every holdover is playing alongside of somebody that they haven't. It'll take a couple of weeks, at least, before they start to gel.

i hope they can gel, before they start getting nicked..

[MadDog97]

i hope they can gel, before they start getting nicked..

Based on the WP articles, the offensive line will continue to be our achilles heel. It is still early but Heyer is now hurt and he has company. I am so sick of complaining about the need to upgrade the offensive line. If we do not succeed it will be because of the o Line because the D is looking awesome. And what will Danny do? We will get a new coach, a new QB, and start from scratch, again!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/04/AR2009080402820.html?sid=ST2009080403125

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/heyer-day-to-day.html

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/no-inquiries-about-levi-jones.html

[Patrick]

Based on the WP articles, the offensive line will continue to be our achilles heel. It is still early but Heyer is now hurt and he has company. I am so sick of complaining about the need to upgrade the offensive line. If we do not succeed it will be because of the o Line because the D is looking awesome. And what will Danny do? We will get a new coach, a new QB, and start from scratch, again!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/04/AR2009080402820.html?sid=ST2009080403125

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/heyer-day-to-day.html

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/no-inquiries-about-levi-jones.html
The OL is what it is - the Skins braintrust decided to focus in on completing the D - which will probably end up being one of the best in the league. They took a gamble with Heyer, thinking he'd step up and released Jansen (looks like a bad decision now with all these injuries arising) ..... Way I see it - next year's off season's focus will be OL. Not even sure they are too concerned about QB ......yet. ............ On the flip side - still think there's plenty of time for the OL to gel this season.

[shally]

The OL is what it is - the Skins braintrust decided to focus in on completing the D - which will probably end up being one of the best in the league. They took a gamble with Heyer, thinking he'd step up and released Jansen (looks like a bad decision now with all these injuries arising) ..... Way I see it - next year's off season's focus will be OL. Not even sure they are too concerned about QB ......yet. ............ On the flip side - still think there's plenty of time for the OL to gel this season.

as long as the injuries dont continue to pile up...

[MadDog97]

The OL is what it is - the Skins braintrust decided to focus in on completing the D - which will probably end up being one of the best in the league. They took a gamble with Heyer, thinking he'd step up and released Jansen (looks like a bad decision now with all these injuries arising) ..... Way I see it - next year's off season's focus will be OL. Not even sure they are too concerned about QB ......yet. ............ On the flip side - still think there's plenty of time for the OL to gel this season.

The offensive line is in its current state because of years of neglect. Our brain(?) trust continues to underestimate the need for a young, tough offensive line. That is the heart of the offense.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

as long as the injuries dont continue to pile up...

That seems to be the big problem now. If we go into the first preseason game without Heyer, Thomas and Rabach, it could get ugly quick.

[Patrick]

The offensive line is in its current state because of years of neglect. Our brain(?) trust continues to underestimate the need for a young, tough offensive line. That is the heart of the offense. Yep and that's exactly what a lot of folks were saying about the D-Line the last two years too.

[Red Bear]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/-pro-bowl-defensive-tackle.html

"I've seen a guy that came very prepared to this training camp," Zorn said. "He's much more confident in what he's doing on the line of scrimmage. He knows his assignment. He's in great shape. He's kind of changed his body strength, if you will. He's competing very hard for a starting position."

according to that Zorn quote, Rinehart is competing for the starting job. while its not farfetched with randy thomas being injured, i wonder if zorn considered him for a candidate to start all along, much like he decided to start heyer over jansen in week 1 last year out of nowhere after the preseason ended. it may be our best scenario to have rinehart and heyer start on the right side, let them take their lumps and hope they improve with experience. atleast we would be trying to build a younger oline that way. and we would have randy thomas as a backup guard. bridges as backup at right tackle and guard as well. mike williams doesnt appear to be impressing anyone in camp

[shally]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/-pro-bowl-defensive-tackle.html



according to that Zorn quote, Rinehart is competing for the starting job. while its not farfetched with randy thomas being injured, i wonder if zorn considered him for a candidate to start all along, much like he decided to start heyer over jansen in week 1 last year out of nowhere after the preseason ended. it may be our best scenario to have rinehart and heyer start on the right side, let them take their lumps and hope they improve with experience. atleast we would be trying to build a younger oline that way. and we would have randy thomas as a backup guard. bridges as backup at right tackle and guard as well. mike williams doesnt appear to be impressing anyone in camp


best case scenario is if reinhart is able to start. gives the skins 2 young guards.
if heyer can overcome his injury woes, the line definitely becomes more youthful overall

[Red Bear]

best case scenario is if reinhart is able to start. gives the skins 2 young guards.
if heyer can overcome his injury woes, the line definitely becomes more youthful overall

i tend to agree, the younger guys will also give us more athleticism along the line too.

[shally]

bridges and riley apparently had mild ankle injuries today.. injuries piling up..

the b'more game could be ugly on offense..

[NCskinsfanatic]

bridges and riley apparently had mild ankle injuries today.. injuries piling up..

the b'more game could be ugly on offense..

With this OL not only will JC be running for his life but we'll have zero push in the run game, the D better be stellar b/c right now, imo, thats our only hope at scoring. I think the O may actually be worse than last year as the OL is a year older and that much more injury prone. Williams will get cut, or ride the pine, Heyer cant stay healthy and is marginal to begin wwith, Randys done, Caseys undersized and overmatched, Samuels is starting to wear and Docks ok but not great...there ya have it...your 2009 achilles heel.

[shally]

With this OL not only will JC be running for his life but we'll have zero push in the run game, the D better be stellar b/c right now, imo, thats our only hope at scoring. I think the O may actually be worse than last year as the OL is a year older and that much more injury prone. Williams will get cut, or ride the pine, Heyer cant stay healthy and is marginal to begin wwith, Randys done, Caseys undersized and overmatched, Samuels is starting to wear and Docks ok but not great...there ya have it...your 2009 achilles heel.

i think they will end up signing kendall late in preseason.. then the issue will be whether a tackle gets signed as well.

[joethefan]

they are setting both jason and zorn to fail.....

[smittyskin]

i think they will end up signing kendall late in preseason.. then the issue will be whether a tackle gets signed as well.

If so, which guard spot does Kenall play? Who plays the other?

I'd like to see Kendall and Runyan on the right side and keep Dock and Chris on the left.

[shally]

If so, which guard spot does Kenall play? Who plays the other?

I'd like to see Kendall and Runyan on the right side and keep Dock and Chris on the left.

right.. dockery and samuels will hold down the left side

[skinsfan36]

right.. dockery and samuels will hold down the left side

he talked like he would even come in as a backup at this point. would like to see rinehart start.

[colkurtz]

Looks like Mike williams may end up on the LOA even for all the weight he lost. Hope he turns it around soon, once he recovers from this groin injury.

[shally]

Looks like Mike williams may end up on the LOA even for all the weight he lost. Hope he turns it around soon, once he recovers from this groin injury.

i dont see that happening..

[NCskinsfanatic]

i think they will end up signing kendall late in preseason.. then the issue will be whether a tackle gets signed as well.

Id sign Kendall and Tausher or Runyan whoever's the healthiest. Im glad the DL seems to be fixed now, but this offseason coming up we have to adress the OL with the same aggressiveness we did the DL this past spring. That and we'll likely need a QB...and a WR or two lol.

[shally]

Id sign Kendall and Tausher or Runyan whoever's the healthiest. Im glad the DL seems to be fixed now, but this offseason coming up we have to adress the OL with the same aggressiveness we did the DL this past spring. That and we'll likely need a QB...and a WR or two lol.

the thing is we will have to address the O line next offseason anyway..

adding guys like tauscher or runyan is just a short term fix while samuels ages..
rabach is going to need to be replaced.. same with r thomas, if reinhart cant do it..this is going to be an ongoing issue

i think runyan will get clearance from dr andrews this week, and if so, i think philly will re sign him.. if he has a choice, i think that is where he wants to go.

i have heard nothing about tauscher. it may be that he is simply finished as a player

[VegasSkinsFan]

the thing is we will have to address the O line next offseason anyway..

adding guys like tauscher or runyan is just a short term fix while samuels ages..
rabach is going to need to be replaced.. same with r thomas, if reinhart cant do it..this is going to be an ongoing issue

i think runyan will get clearance from dr andrews this week, and if so, i think philly will re sign him.. if he has a choice, i think that is where he wants to go.

i have heard nothing about tauscher. it may be that he is simply finished as a player

No less than 2 draft picks, 1 free agent and the obligatory 2-4 udfa's from the maryland/virginia area. This will be a rough season if the oline doesnt come together in a hurry. GO SKINS !!!!

[shally]

No less than 2 draft picks, 1 free agent and the obligatory 2-4 udfa's from the maryland/virginia area. This will be a rough season if the oline doesnt come together in a hurry. GO SKINS !!!!

the confluence of events sure makes it look like Zorn is being thrown to the wolves because of the deterioration of the o line.

then the next coach comes in with a ready made top 5 defense, and some skilled players on offense.. wham-mo !! the front office spends a top pick on the o line and adds 1 more premier free agent o lineman and we have instant credibility
and a decent offense.. the new coach looks like a "genius"

[Patrick]

the confluence of events sure makes it look like Zorn is being thrown to the wolves because of the deterioration of the o line.

then the next coach comes in with a ready made top 5 defense, and some skilled players on offense.. wham-mo !! the front office spends a top pick on the o line and adds 1 more premier free agent o lineman and we have instant credibility
and a decent offense.. the new coach looks like a "genius"
OR Vinny/Dan understands they took the gamble this season by making a commitment to solidify the defense with all the intent of focusing on OL, QB, and RB in 2010. And unless Zorn just totally bombs-out (6 or less wins), give him a third season to be successful.:thinker:

[shally]

OR Vinny/Dan understands they took the gamble this season by making a commitment to solidify the defense with all the intent of focusing on OL, QB, and RB in 2010. And unless Zorn just totally bombs-out (6 or less wins), give him a third season to be successful.:thinker:


well, they could be thinking that they are covered either way-- with zorn or with a new HC.. makes me think that they would go Offensive oriented coach for that reason..

and i dont think Zorn gets a third season without making the playoffs..

[Hr fan]

Agree with most on this board that Zorn is on shaky ground, but primarily IMO because if there is poor performance with a well identified cause like the oline it is a choice between the true perpetrator (Snyderatto, color in Vinnie) and the victim (Zorn). It is a question of which change will garner more favorable press about a turnaround (Snyder is always thinking revenue generated by hype). IMHO the correct decision (Vinnie) will not be made, and the team will be forced thru another change, don't we averqge 1/yr?

Also IMO no reasonable coach will consider the job unless Snyder really breaks the bank. IMHO Cowher wouldn't even consider the skins, Holmgren and Shannahan only if they got Vinnie totally gone ala Marty (and both have failed when wearing both gm and hc hats), and guys like Fassel under Snyderatto are doomed to failure. Best option is get rid of Vinnie, draft for the obvious weakness, realize that the qb/wrs/tes are young and talented and know Zorn's O, and that the D can carry the maturation process of a revamped oline. Since this makes the most sense it is therefore the least likely course of action.

[shally]

Agree with most on this board that Zorn is on shaky ground, but primarily IMO because if there is poor performance with a well identified cause like the oline it is a choice between the true perpetrator (Snyderatto, color in Vinnie) and the victim (Zorn). It is a question of which change will garner more favorable press about a turnaround (Snyder is always thinking revenue generated by hype). IMHO the correct decision (Vinnie) will not be made, and the team will be forced thru another change, don't we averqge 1/yr?

Also IMO no reasonable coach will consider the job unless Snyder really breaks the bank. IMHO Cowher wouldn't even consider the skins, Holmgren and Shannahan only if they got Vinnie totally gone ala Marty (and both have failed when wearing both gm and hc hats), and guys like Fassel under Snyderatto are doomed to failure. Best option is get rid of Vinnie, draft for the obvious weakness, realize that the qb/wrs/tes are young and talented and know Zorn's O, and that the D can carry the maturation process of a revamped oline. Since this makes the most sense it is therefore the least likely course of action.

snyder will break the bank for any HC with a solid rep.. that much you can count on

as for the other options such as removing vinny ?? not gonna happen

[flave1969]

Rather than start a new thread I bought back this one.

I cannot take it anymore. It took five games to prove what we were all saying before Free Agency, before the Draft, even June 1st cuts. Even now so many fans (namely on another board are completely delusional).

Williams replaced Rinehart at Guard and provided what exactly? Little push in the run game and at times a revolving door for Carolina.

Heyer has no business being on an NFL roster, for that matter nor does Batiste.

We have zero depth and no ballers to come in and step up.

We lost Thomas and we made zero roster moves. We lost Samuels in game today and we immediately saw the difference. Today Four Sacks, Four Knock downs and Six Hurries. And we had 74 yards on 24 carries.

There are all sorts of FA out there that would improve us immediately but we likely bring in a RB.

It sucks and I am fuming about it.

[JasonCampbell]

Pete Kendall must have banged Tanya Snyder. I can't imagine how MW or CR are any better than him.

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

we should just call the oline,the over the hill and far away gang.zorn is just an awful coach.i think in time he could be a really good coach but he'll have to change his attitude on discipline,and learn how to be an OC before he ever does anything else.

[skinsfan36]

this line is dreadful. mike williams,stephen heyer,should not be in the league. batiste is practice squad caliber. id like to see rinehart at tackle and montgomery at right guard and williams(edwin) at center. then we only need 4 linemen in the offseason lol.but we will proably draft dez bryant

[saviour]

this line is dreadful. mike williams,stephen heyer,should not be in the league. batiste is practice squad caliber. id like to see rinehart at tackle and montgomery at right guard and williams(edwin) at center. then we only need 4 linemen in the offseason lol.but we will proably draft dez bryant

I personally would like to see Rienhart replace Heyer at tackle seeing as that was the position he played in college. And I can live with Mike Williams at guard if we can run to the right side. Batiste was over matched but that shouldnt be surprising considering how he got on the team. Heyer has been attrocious this season as he seems to never get any type of push in the run game, and his pass protection has been invisible at times. He needs to be benched ASAP.

[JasonCampbell]

You guys asking for Rinehart at tackle don't watch preseason games, do you?

[CNYSkinFan]

OR Vinny/Dan understands they took the gamble this season by making a commitment to solidify the defense with all the intent of focusing on OL, QB, and RB in 2010. And unless Zorn just totally bombs-out (6 or less wins), give him a third season to be successful.:thinker:
How is that gamble looking now?

Seriously. They could have filled the OL with moderately priced FA but totally ignored it ...mainly because they thought Heyer and Williams would turn into diamonds when they are just hardened dog poo.

Now do people see why I thought not signign a decent OL when Thomas went down and getting aldridge who still hasn't played was one of the worst in season moves of all time for the Redskins. Seriously, the failure to act is criminal.

[JasonCampbell]

Heyer, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Williams...JC is going to die.

[akhhorus]

Heyer, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Williams...JC is going to die.

I'm stealing Spicy's joke here, but here's Campbell's uniform for sunday:
http://historyshop.piratemerch.com/images/300100_medieval_armor.jpg

[JasonCampbell]

lol...akh, how many teams do you think would have Heyer, Williams, or Rinehart on their rosters, let alone starting?

[akhhorus]

lol...akh, how many teams do you think would have Heyer, Williams, or Rinehart on their rosters, let alone starting?

Umm...we're talking the NFL right? Not Canada and the UFL also? Rinehart and Heyer might be backups somewhere, Williams no.

[flave1969]

Green Bay picked up Tauscher today to help their line out. (http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8135adc3&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true)

[CarMike]

Green Bay picked up Tauscher today to help their line out. (http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8135adc3&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true)

Listening to Zorn during his press conference, and by how the FO has handled our OL this season, they don't think this OL is a problem. They honestly don't. Zorn sounded very confident that the OL will play up and beyond their potential. No matter how low that potential may be.

I've given up on ever having a great OL while Snyder runs things. This just drives it home.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Heyer, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Williams...JC is going to die.

That has a really good chance of being the worst offensive line in Redskins history. I have a real hard trouble remembering a worse one.

[Goskins11]

That has a really good chance of being the worst offensive line in Redskins history. I have a real hard trouble remembering a worse one.

yeah that is real scary. poor JC...

[akhhorus]

That has a really good chance of being the worst offensive line in Redskins history. I have a real hard trouble remembering a worse one.

1998: Brad Badger-Tre Johnson-Raymer-Rod Milstead-Shar Pourdanesh

[CNYSkinFan]

1998: Brad Badger-Tre Johnson-Raymer-Rod Milstead-Shar Pourdanesh
i would take that line over ours...

heck i would take some of those guys wherever they are now over some of ours

[Gravy]

1998: Brad Badger-Tre Johnson-Raymer-Rod Milstead-Shar Pourdanesh

Holy Crap...I forgot about Shar! I don't think Levi Jones could even help this O-line out right now!

[shally]

I'm stealing Spicy's joke here, but here's Campbell's uniform for sunday:
http://historyshop.piratemerch.com/images/300100_medieval_armor.jpg

more likely to need a chastity belt to prevent the humiliation and abasement that is about to occur...

[shally]

Listening to Zorn during his press conference, and by how the FO has handled our OL this season, they don't think this OL is a problem. They honestly don't. Zorn sounded very confident that the OL will play up and beyond their potential. No matter how low that potential may be.

I've given up on ever having a great OL while Snyder runs things. This just drives it home.

well.. to be honest, they were saying the same things about the D line just a short time ago.. at least they are moving towards repairing that area...
now, if we only had a DC who could use them properly

[shally]

1998: Brad Badger-Tre Johnson-Raymer-Rod Milstead-Shar Pourdanesh

where is that little barfing emoticon when you need it ???

[JasonCampbell]

Listening to Zorn during his press conference, and by how the FO has handled our OL this season, they don't think this OL is a problem. They honestly don't. Zorn sounded very confident that the OL will play up and beyond their potential. No matter how low that potential may be.

Well...I doubt Zorn is going to come out and say that obviously the offense is going to suck because the OL has the ability level of a middle of the road ACC team.

I just cannot believe that the FO decide to upgrade the defense so much and the OL so little. Jason Reid keeps bringing up these sources that identified the collapse of the second half of last season was due to the OL play. It is almost like they set up Zorn to fail.

[shally]

Well...I doubt Zorn is going to come out and say that obviously the offense is going to suck because the OL has the ability level of a middle of the road ACC team.

I just cannot believe that the FO decide to upgrade the defense so much and the OL so little. Jason Reid keeps bringing up these sources that identified the collapse of the second half of last season was due to the OL play. It is almost like they set up Zorn to fail.

you dont think that is what is afoot right now ? self fulfilling prophesy about both zorn and campbell

[SpicyMcHaggis]

1998: Brad Badger-Tre Johnson-Raymer-Rod Milstead-Shar Pourdanesh

Well, you do have to go back 11 years to find a comparable one...congrats Vinny, that's still quite an accomplishment.

[lorimike]

I can't help but think that we should try out Pete Kendall and John Runyan for the right side of our line. Those crusty old vets are better than what we've got.

[flave1969]

I just cannot believe how many people out there simply think that the Offensive line does not matter to our chances of winning. It is staggering to me.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

I just cannot believe how many people out there simply think that the Offensive line does not matter to our chances of winning. It is staggering to me.

Someone started a thread last week, what is Redskin football. Redskin football has always been about the offensive line. A great offensive line gives Riggo, Ernest Byner, Terry Allen and Stephen Davis holes to get through,whether we are pulling lineman or zone blocking. A great offensive line allows Garry Clark, Ricky Sanders and Santana Moss enough time to get 40 yards down the field even after a double move. A great offensive line allows Art Monk, Clint Didier and Crhis Cooley enough time to run those long crossing patterns. And a great offensive line allows Joe Theismann, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien and Jason Campbell enough time to throw to their third read. Without a great offensive line, none of those other things are possible. It wouldn't even matter if your skill players are Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, Joe Montana and Walter Payton.

[skinsfan36]

available linemen that would help
levi jones,pete kendall,jon runyan,kwame harris,jonas jennings

[saviour]

available linemen that would help
levi jones,pete kendall,jon runyan,kwame harris,jonas jennings

Unbelievable...

Each of the guys you just listed will be an immediate upgrade to Heyer, Batiste, Williams, and whatever scrub we have on our roster that is not named Samuels.

Hey, we can always add more skill players (WR's, RB's, TE's) and blame Campbell and Zorn if they dont pan out in the end so it doesnt matter. What a joke our front office is...

[JasonCampbell]

Rinehart's done, Montgomery starting:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/will-montgomery-will-start-on.html#more

[skinsfan36]

Rinehart's done, Montgomery starting:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/will-montgomery-will-start-on.html#more

heres to hoping and praying that he can actually play. then we could potential only need this next year.

move samuels to rt.dockery is ok at lg.williams to play center next year.then we would only need a LT,depth tackle,rinehart can stay as a backup guard.and more depth on the line. lol wow