Don't rule out Redskins in Vick sweepstakes

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/27/dont-rule-out-redskins-in-vick-sweepstakes/


Take this with a grain of salt but.....

For now, it's clear that multiple as-yet-unknown teams are pursuing quarterback Mike Vick.

It's also clear that one of the teams that has pursued multiple quarterbacks this offseason is the Redskins.

And we're beginning to pick up some subtle indications from a couple of sources with connections to the team that the Redskins should not be ruled out as potential suitors for Mr. Vick.

The thinking is that, if he were to land in D.C., Vick would not supplant current starter Jason Campbell, but that he instead would work in a Wildcat-type role for 2009, with an opportunity next year to succeed Campbell, whose contract expires after the season.

If the Redskins truly are interested, it could create an awkward situation for agent Joel Segal, who represents both players.

Then again, Segal might be able to persuade Campbell that, if Vick makes the team better in 2009, Campbell will be more attractive on the open market in 2010, if the Redskins choose not to keep him.

For now, we're not reporting that anything will happen between Vick and the Redskins. But as other teams begin lining up for a crack at Vick, who's living not that far from where the Redskins play their home games, how can the 'Skins not at least do a little due diligence?

With a far less noxious degree of stink emanating from Vick given the incredibly fair manner in which the league office has treated him, selling Vick to the local fans suddenly has become a far easier task. And given that the Redskins are nearly 18 years removed from their last Super Bowl win, we've got a feeling that anything that pushes the franchise toward the top of the NFC will be viewed as a positive development.

Bottom line? The Redskins signed Albert Haynesworth, who is hardly a choir boy. If they can justify giving him $41 million guaranteed, they can easily justify giving Vick a one-year deal.

To be clear, we're not reporting that the Redskins will sign Vick. But we've heard enough from a couple of trusted sources to believe that something could indeed happen.

And if it happens, it'll be happening fairly soon.

[Fathead]

Shoot me.

[akhhorus]

Shoot me.

Me first.

[shally]

Me first.

me, too...

there isnt enough bourbon in the entire world to wash down that pill...

[hogs86]

The redskins did waive a fullback tonight. Maybe for Vick or one of there draft picks??

[shally]

The redskins skins did waive a fullback tonight. Maybe for Vick or one of there draft picks??

we had room for one signing before tonight.. the latest cut gave us room for both orakpo and jarmon.. we would need yet another cut to accomodate vick

[jaylen]

Not at all unexpected as far as I'm concerned this is so up Snyder's ally.

with our lines inability to protect it might take a qb like Vick to run for his life. lol

[shally]

Not at all unexpected as far as I'm concerned this is so up Snyder's ally.

with our lines inability to protect it might take a qb like Vick to run for his life. lol

when we cut another qb i will start to sweat...

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Also, Tanner Cooley reported on his Facebook/Twitter account that Michael Vick was seen in Lansdowne today and at Buffalo Wing Factory in Ashburn.

[shally]

Also, Tanner Cooley reported on his Facebook/Twitter account that Michael Vick was seen in Lansdowne today and at Buffalo Wing Factory in Ashburn.

no big deal.. he is just looking for some bones for his dogs...

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

no big deal.. he is just looking for some bones for his dogs...

Maybe so. :)

[hogs86]

This comes from Tanner Cooley Twitter.

Wondering why Michael Vick is in Lansdowne and even more, why was he at Buffalo Wing Factory in Ashburn earlier today??

Link http://twitter.com/tannercooley

[shally]

even SNYDER could not want that kind of public relations disaster on his hands

not gonna happen, i predict

[Fathead]

This pains me to say this, but here goes:



I would rather watch Colt Brennan start than have Vick on this team.

[shally]

and the irony is that he could STILL be suspended until game 6.. by then, we could be headed for a catastrophic season with all the turmoil and negative press that the signing could cause.. and still get little actual benefit for this year..

totally a negative move IMHO

[The Skinsinator]

even SNYDER could not want that kind of public relations disaster on his hands

not gonna happen, i predictI'm not so sure. Snyder will do anything to help us win and especially make money. I don't want Vick within 100 miles of the Redskins but our fo doesn't like Campbell. Someone is going to get Vick just on his ability with the Wildcat. I wouldn't even be surprised if New England pursued him. He will be employed. Everyone is already conveniently forgetting him torturing/killing dogs.

[shally]

This pains me to say this, but here goes:



I would rather watch Colt Brennan start than have Vick on this team.

it would mean the end of Collins, Brennan and likely Daniel.. at least 2 out of the 3 would be gone..Campbell would almost without doubt be gone next year as well..

so does zorn get a third year if vick is signed ? because for damn sure i dont see
cowher, holmgren, or shanny walking into that kind of mess............

[shally]

I'm not so sure. Snyder will do anything to help us win and especially make money. I don't want Vick within 100 miles of the Redskins but our fo doesn't like Campbell. Someone is going to get Vick just on his ability with the Wildcat. I wouldn't even be surprised if New England pursued him. He will be employed. Everyone is already conveniently forgetting him torturing/killing dogs.

yes, he will be employed.. and yes, i think we might be surprised by the team that signs him

i still think the negatives for snyder far outweigh the potential benefits

[CNYSkinFan]

This pains me to say this, but here goes:



I would rather watch Colt Brennan start than have Vick on this team.
+1 painfully

[Fathead]

Zorn is gone after this season unless we are in the NFC championship game or better.

[The Skinsinator]

it would mean the end of Collins, Brennan and likely Daniel.. at least 2 out of the 3 would be gone..Campbell would almost without doubt be gone next year as well..

so does zorn get a third year if vick is signed ? because for damn sure i dont see
cowher, holmgren, or shanny walking into that kind of mess............Our FO is so compulsive and has such a reactionary personality that hell they don't know what to do alot of times. Call me crazy but Snyder has his eye bigtime on Shanahan in 2010. Not getting a new right tackle for next season is complete bs and completely going to hurt the offense. Way too many good pass rushers in our division. The defense should be very strong for at least 2-3 years minimum. The offense is a different story and Dannyboy sure didn't do alot to try and improve it other than try multiple times to trade our starting qb. And our fans wonder we're a laughingstock? Synderrato folks.

[NCskinsfanatic]

I think we'll kick the tires but hopefully we'll fall short like we did with Cutler and Sanchez. I can see why the media would think this might come to pass since Vick's a"local"but imo theres no way he could be much more than a 3rd QB/wildcat option in 2009. Especially considering he's a poor fit for a WC offense from all reports. His mobility would be the one and only postive that he'd bring to QB position...now if he could play WR and return kicks :thinker:

[shally]

I'm not so sure. Snyder will do anything to help us win and especially make money. I don't want Vick within 100 miles of the Redskins but our fo doesn't like Campbell. Someone is going to get Vick just on his ability with the Wildcat. I wouldn't even be surprised if New England pursued him. He will be employed. Everyone is already conveniently forgetting him torturing/killing dogs.

how does Vick help this team win ? if he is suspended until game 6 (a distinct possibility) how does it help the team win ?

and he cant be in much football shape at this point..

[The Skinsinator]

yes, he will be employed.. and yes, i think we might be surprised by the team that signs him

i still think the negatives for snyder far outweigh the potential benefitsI agree but everyone thinks that Vick sucked as a qb which isn't true. I can't ever forgive him for his animal cruelty that's why I don't want in the league or especially on the Skins. However he nearly got Atlanta to the Super Bowl in 2004 wheras Campbell/Romo and most other starting nfl qbs can't even spell playoffs.

[shally]

Our FO is so compulsive and has such a reactionary personality that hell they don't know what to do alot of times. Call me crazy but Snyder has his eye bigtime on Shanahan in 2010. Not getting a new right tackle for next season is complete bs and completely going to hurt the offense. Way too many good pass rushers in our division. The defense should be very strong for at least 2-3 years minimum. The offense is a different story and Dannyboy sure didn't do alot to try and improve it other than try multiple times to trade our starting qb. And our fans wonder we're a laughinstock? Synderrato folks.

he is going to have to mudwrestle Jerry Jones to get Shanahan.. why would Shanny come here as opposed to Dallas with Romo ? especially with Vick..

[The Skinsinator]

how does Vick help this team win ? if he is suspended until game 6 (a distinct possibility) how does it help the team win ?

and he cant be in much football shape at this point..Cause he flat out moves the ball through the air or on the ground. He would be another weapon. You would honestly take Jason Campbell over Mike Vick when he was in the league keeping his off the field activity out of it?

[Fathead]

he is going to have to mudwrestle Jerry Jones to get Shanahan.. why would Shanny come here as opposed to Dallas with Romo ? especially with Vick..



$12 million a year.

[shally]

I think we'll kick the tires but hopefully we'll fall short like we did with Cutler and Sanchez. I can see why the media would think this might come to pass since Vick's a"local"but imo theres no way he could be much more than a 3rd QB/wildcat option in 2009. Especially considering he's a poor fit for a WC offense from all reports. His mobility would be the one and only postive that he'd bring to QB position...now if he could play WR and return kicks :thinker:

we probably will listen to what his agent wants.. still, i see no positives for this team other than his mobility.. then again, so is Daniel mobile, if that is all we want

[The Skinsinator]

he is going to have to mudwrestle Jerry Jones to get Shanahan.. why would Shanny come here as opposed to Dallas with Romo ? especially with Vick..True guess it just will see who gets him first. I don't think anyone can deny Shanny's offensive prowess. It's not his fault that Denver's defense sucked so bad the last couple years.

[GreenspanDan]

snyder, don't make me boycott the redskins. i've been a die-hard fan since i was old enough to follow the game. i've been through good and bad and gawd-awful. but this would be the last straw. period.

i know some think that's melodramatic or misguided or will say i "never really was." so be it.

[shally]

$12 million a year.

now THAT i do foresee..i am already on record that Snyder will have a new coach within 1 week of the end of this season for between 8-12 mil per year..

[shally]

True guess it just will see who gets him first. I don't think anyone can deny Shanny's offensive prowess. It's not his fault that Denver's defense sucked so bad the last couple years.

yes, it is somewhat.. he had a lot of control over personnel until the end...

[The Skinsinator]

For the record, I DON'T WANT VICK. But it wouldn't surprised me in the least if Danny does. Danny likes action and Danny wants a new qb. Sure he could just pay PETA to leave FEDEX alone anyway. Doubt it happens but cannot be dismissed entirely especially with the Danny.

[shally]

snyder, don't make me boycott the redskins. i've been a die-hard fan since i was old enough to follow the game. i've been through good and bad and gawd-awful. but this would be the last straw. period.

i know some think that's melodramatic or misguided or will say i "never really was." so be it.

it would be a sickening new low for this franchise--without a doubt..

[Fathead]

Cowher or Shanahan for $12 mill a year. I fully expect it, and I expect it by January 10.

[shally]

For the record, I DON'T WANT VICK. But it wouldn't surprised me in the least if Danny does. Danny likes action and Danny wants a new qb. Sure he could just pay PETA to leave FEDEX alone anyway. Doubt it happens but cannot be dismissed entirely especially with the Danny.

if reports can be believed, the public outcry over the possible Fassel hiring was a factor.. i think it would be much the same with Vick-- only potentially stronger

[shally]

Cowher or Shanahan for $12 mill a year. I fully expect it, and I expect it by January 10.

put me down in that column as well.. only a run at least 2 games into the playoffs saves Zorn...

[NCskinsfanatic]

we probably will listen to what his agent wants.. still, i see no positives for this team other than his mobility.. then again, so is Daniel mobile, if that is all we want

Yeah but he's a rookie that might not be able to beat out Colt...Vicks mobility/versatility is what will intrique Danny. And then he'll have Cerrato "mind freak" Zorn into believing he can make Vick into the next Steve Young. If we sign him it'll be to replace Collins or Colt and not much else...but Snyder will wall paper Redskins.com with stories of Vicks rehabilitation and new found perseverance while slowly learnin Zorns Offense...:sleeping:

[shally]

Yeah but he's a rookie that might not be able to beat out Colt...Vicks mobility/versatility is what will intrique Danny. And then he'll have Cerrato "mind freak" Zorn into believing he can make Vick into the next Steve Young. If we sign him he it'll be to replace Collins or Colt and not much else...but Snyder will wall paper Redskins.com with stories of Vicks rehabilitation and new found perseverance while slowly learnin Zorns Offense...:sleeping:

it will p*** off a LOT of people.. and then if Goodell suspends Vick for the first 5 games were are totally screwed for this year

i could see this possibly if we were already into the second half of the season, but with a brand new camp about to start ? this would be a HUGE distraction for a team that doesnt need any

[The Skinsinator]

Signing Mike Vick for any franchise is the ultimate risk/reward scenario for any owner. He faces a tumultous road with outcry from fans, organizational groups, the media, even other nfl personnel/management. However wins cure all ills. But in Vick's case it wouldn't. I can never forgive his pschoypathic, cruel killing of dogs.

Everyone thinks he's served his time. BS. Just for gambling folks. Not one count on animal cruelty. Not one and that's why everyone is in such an outcry more than anything else. Apparently, killing/drowning at least 8 dogs is perfectly legal in the U.S. and the electrocuting/slamming all that crap. And people wonder why PETA is pissed. They actually have a reason to be in this case.

[shally]

this will pass... like so much swamp gas...

[bigcmr]

OH NO plz just be a rumor.

[Axegrinder]

He's paid for his crimes, so sign him.
He's better than anything else out there, plus it stops the others from using him against us. We're not good enough to let any potential offensive talent slip by.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

He's paid for his crimes, so sign him.
He's better than anything else out there, plus it stops the others from using him against us. We're not good enough to let any potential offensive talent slip by.
I echo these sentiments.

[BurgundyNGold]

He's paid for his crimes, so sign him.
He's better than anything else out there, plus it stops the others from using him against us. We're not good enough to let any potential offensive talent slip by.
Except he's not.

[redskinz#1fan]

Signing Mike Vick for any franchise is the ultimate risk/reward scenario for any owner. He faces a tumultous road with outcry from fans, organizational groups, the media, even other nfl personnel/management. However wins cure all ills. But in Vick's case it wouldn't. I can never forgive his pschoypathic, cruel killing of dogs.

Everyone thinks he's served his time. BS. Just for gambling folks. Not one count on animal cruelty. Not one and that's why everyone is in such an outcry more than anything else. Apparently, killing/drowning at least 8 dogs is perfectly legal in the U.S. and the electrocuting/slamming all that crap. And people wonder why PETA is pissed. They actually have a reason to be in this case.

I'm not a fan of Vick, but he has most certainly served his time! The man went to jail...period! No matter what he was charged with, he went to jail! If you don't like what charges he went to jail for, then blame the prosecutor. Vick got a jail sentence, and then did his time. I'm sorry but the man killed animals...animals! Yes he did this in a cruel manner, but they were animals. No different then the pigs, chickens, or cows that you and I eat on a daily basis...they are all animals! And please don't take that wrong, because I'm a huge animal lover...but I love people more!

The truly sad part is that people still go around and say that he should be banned for life from the league, or that he should have gotten more time, or that they can't forgive him for what he has done...that is bologna! If people feel that way then I know that they are obviously not believers in God. As believers we have been forgiven for all our sins, no matter how bad they were...so if we have been granted forgiveness how in the hell is it now that we will pass judgment on another person? I'm not going to turn this thread into a spiritual debate or another Vick thread, I just feel like everybody deserves a second chance.

The bottom line is that there are murderers, child rapist, and people that do much more worse crimes then Vick that have and continue to get jail sentences far less then what Vick got. So is one to assume that the people that think so negatively against Vick and what he did believe that animal life is more important or carries more weight then a human life? I sure hope not!

But on a side note, IF Vick were to join our team I would not be the happiest of fans...but I would certainly not boycott the very team that I grew up loving. I'm a fan of the Redskins, not the players! The players are just a part of the puzzle that make everything happen. And Vick most certainly can bring something to this team, or any team for that matter. The guy is tremendously fast and quick! He could play WR or be a returner. He could run the Wildcat...he could do a lot of things! The bottom line is that some team will get a player still in his prime that will be hungry to prove that he is truly regretful for what he did, and that he can still play and make a difference...plus he will be extremely CHEAP! Probably a Vet Minimum with a bunch of incentives for play and good behavior.

Once again I'm not supporting the move, but merely pointing out what he brings to any team. IF he were to be on this team, and made a huge difference as far as how far we got (i.e Superbowl), can you honestly say that you still wouldn't support him or this team...if your answer is yes then you might need to reevaluate what team you really love!

This is to everyone, I just quoted this post because it fit.

[GreenspanDan]

he was a mediocre at best QB and he is a deplorable human.

no.

[whitskins]

Considering that there has been no press release from Redskins Park declaring that we have zero interest in signing him, I'm working under the assumption that we're seriously considering bringing him in.

If we didn't want him, Vinny would have been shouting it from the rooftops for weeks like he did with TO.

I'd say that there's as good a chance he lands in DC as anywhere else at the very least.

[joethefan]

I'm not a fan of Vick, but he has most certainly served his time! The man went to jail...period! No matter what he was charged with, he went to jail! If you don't like what charges he went to jail for, then blame the prosecutor. Vick got a jail sentence, and then did his time. I'm sorry but the man killed animals...animals! Yes he did this in a cruel manner, but they were animals. No different then the pigs, chickens, or cows that you and I eat on a daily basis...they are all animals! And please don't take that wrong, because I'm a huge animal lover...but I love people more!

The truly sad part is that people still go around and say that he should be banned for life from the league, or that he should have gotten more time, or that they can't forgive him for what he has done...that is bologna! If people feel that way then I know that they are obviously not believers in God. As believers we have been forgiven for all our sins, no matter how bad they were...so if we have been granted forgiveness how in the hell is it now that we will pass judgment on another person? I'm not going to turn this thread into a spiritual debate or another Vick thread, I just feel like everybody deserves a second chance.

The bottom line is that there are murderers, child rapist, and people that do much more worse crimes then Vick that have and continue to get jail sentences far less then what Vick got. So is one to assume that the people that think so negatively against Vick and what he did believe that animal life is more important or carries more weight then a human life? I sure hope not!

But on a side note, IF Vick were to join our team I would not be the happiest of fans...but I would certainly not boycott the very team that I grew up loving. I'm a fan of the Redskins, not the players! The players are just a part of the puzzle that make everything happen. And Vick most certainly can bring something to this team, or any team for that matter. The guy is tremendously fast and quick! He could play WR or be a returner. He could run the Wildcat...he could do a lot of things! The bottom line is that some team will get a player still in his prime that will be hungry to prove that he is truly regretful for what he did, and that he can still play and make a difference...plus he will be extremely CHEAP! Probably a Vet Minimum with a bunch of incentives for play and good behavior.

Once again I'm not supporting the move, but merely pointing out what he brings to any team. IF he were to be on this team, and made a huge difference as far as how far we got (i.e Superbowl), can you honestly say that you still wouldn't support him or this team...if your answer is yes then you might need to reevaluate what team you really love!

This is to everyone, I just quoted this post because it fit.


very good post but the problem is that people around here don't believe in forgiveness or giving someone a second chance or another opportunity.

I could care less who he plays for, I just want the brother to build his life again, that this experience will steer someone else the right way. But the general sentiment I've gotten from many folk is that they don't want him on this team, their is nothing he can do to help this team, he's a convincted felon, they would give up thier fanhood if he comes, as if these last 10 years have been so wonderful in Redskin country.

Everyone has the right to thier own opinions an I respect that, but my Question is who will actually stop watching, rooting for and coming to this website if he did come here?...I'm almost sure no one here would.....

We'll deal with it just like we dealt with Deion and the players from the senior citizen home, just like we dealt with 7 god awful years of Norv Turner, Gibbs's old offense, Al Sanders and the 700 page playbook, Clintons Antics.....and Danny's continued disregard for hiring a GM.

[flave1969]

very good post but the problem is that people around here don't believe in forgiveness or giving someone a second chance or another opportunity.

I could care less who he plays for, I just want the brother to build his life again, that this experience will steer someone else the right way. But the general sentiment I've gotten from many folk is that they don't want him on this team, their is nothing he can do to help this team, he's a convincted felon, they would give up thier fanhood if he comes, as if these last 10 years have been so wonderful in Redskin country.

Everyone has the right to thier own opinions an I respect that, but my Question is who will actually stop watching, rooting for and coming to this website if he did come here?...I'm almost sure no one here would.....

We'll deal with it just like we dealt with Deion and the players from the senior citizen home, just like we dealt with 7 god awful years of Norv Turner, Gibbs's old offense, Al Sanders and the 700 page playbook, Clintons Antics.....and Danny's continued disregard for hiring a GM.

I am with Joe on this. It really makes me sick to my stomach what he did but he served his punishment as far as I am concerned and it is time for us all to move on. I want him to get on with his life and if that is in the NFL arena, so be it.

He has paid a the price in terms of his freedom, lost his fortune and certainly with his career. He will always be an ex-felon and that will not be forgotten. If getting back on the field will help him get to a place where he can do some good then I do not have a problem with it.

From a Football point of view I don't want him here. To me it is like Mike Williams, he has not played since 2006 and IMO he was not that great anyway. Whatsmore why further destabilise an already unstable position where we have an unhappy QB who is peed off as it is. We need him focused not worrying about Vick.

[Redskin-4-life]

very good post but the problem is that people around here don't believe in forgiveness or giving someone a second chance or another opportunity.

I could care less who he plays for, I just want the brother to build his life again, that this experience will steer someone else the right way. But the general sentiment I've gotten from many folk is that they don't want him on this team, their is nothing he can do to help this team, he's a convincted felon, they would give up thier fanhood if he comes, as if these last 10 years have been so wonderful in Redskin country.

Everyone has the right to thier own opinions an I respect that, but my Question is who will actually stop watching, rooting for and coming to this website if he did come here?...I'm almost sure no one here would.....

We'll deal with it just like we dealt with Deion and the players from the senior citizen home, just like we dealt with 7 god awful years of Norv Turner, Gibbs's old offense, Al Sanders and the 700 page playbook, Clintons Antics.....and Danny's continued disregard for hiring a GM.

Good post Joe
He paid for his crimes, and if he has changed deserves a second chance. They're are players in the NFL that took human life and got a second chance, why not Vick?

[Smiley]

Hummm...why Not Vick? Well...he strapped a car battery up to a dogs testicles and electrocuted it for not performing (and when I say "not performing" I mean not vicious enough to kill another dog). Do I want this guy on my team? No. Do I forgive him? Who cares. What does God have to do with this? Apparently you know better than I do about what God thinks and when forgiveness is appropriate. Since you're the moral barometer and all.

[Patrick]

First: Vick is a convicted felon. IMO – ANY professional athlete who has been convicted of a felon should be banned from their sport. Second chance – by all means – there are plenty of OTHER opportunities out there but NOT in professional sports. A convicted felon gave up his/her privilege to earn a living in this area. ………… There are MANY cases where convicted felons cannot go back into the profession they once were earning a living in. That’s just the rules of the game (so to speak) but it doesn’t stop them from earning a living in other professions once they paid their debt to society.

Second: According to a report I heard this morning (didn’t catch the reporter’s name) on ESPN News - Vick is not actually suspended for 6 games. According to the letter the commissioner released regarding Vick’s status – the commissioner has up to the six weeks in the regular season to respond to Vicks request for Full reinstatement. It’s possible that Vick could be playing in regular games by week #2 or as late as week # 7.

Third: Washington Post lead sport article today “Vick Is Back. Now What?” has list of teams that would be the most likely where Vick would land. (Bills, Lions, Raiders, Rams, 49ers) Skins were not mentioned and I don’t think they are interested. (I guess that means he’ll be signed by the end of today – lol).

Bottom-line (IMO): The Skins do not need Michel Vick to have a successful season.

[MONK_in_HOF]

The rumor doesn't surprise me. I just really hope it isn't true.

[joethefan]

Hummm...why Not Vick? Well...he strapped a car battery up to a dogs testicles and electrocuted it for not performing (and when I say "not performing" I mean not vicious enough to kill another dog). Do I want this guy on my team? No. Do I forgive him? Who cares. What does God have to do with this? Apparently you know better than I do about what God thinks and when forgiveness is appropriate. Since you're the moral barometer and all.

I sure would like to see that that glass house you're living in....and when you say who cares apparently you care enough to write this post. Its ok not to want him on your team..I understand that..But I sure hope you haven't done anything stupid in your lifetime that will cause folk to hate you....I know I have and after time,and enough aplogies, I realized they'll get over it.

I own a dog. Now I would have an issue with him if he did that to MY dog. GOD has everything to do with it because in the LORDS prayer it states..."as we forgive others who have trespassed against us..."....so apparently he's tresspassed against you, and if so then he should be forgiven right?..I never said when. I just said he should be.

[LATrueRedskin]

I'd have a HUGE problem with this.

[akhhorus]

There's no moral or legal right to play football professionally last time I checked. He deserves a 2nd chance to show that he can be a good citizen, as every paroled criminal does. He lost the privilege of playing in the NFL when he involved himself in a multi-year gambling conspiracy that began before he even joined the NFL. And he has to show some real contrition before anyone should forgive him. All I've seen from him is pre-written statements from his attornies and publicity people.

For a sheer football sense: I'd rather have Colt Brennan infected with Arm herpes playing QB for this team than Vick. Vick wasn't good Qb before he was caught, I doubt that being out of the NFL for 2 years has helped his game.

[BurgundyNGold]

very good post but the problem is that people around here don't believe in forgiveness or giving someone a second chance or another opportunity.

I could care less who he plays for, I just want the brother to build his life again, that this experience will steer someone else the right way. But the general sentiment I've gotten from many folk is that they don't want him on this team, their is nothing he can do to help this team, he's a convincted felon, they would give up thier fanhood if he comes, as if these last 10 years have been so wonderful in Redskin country.

Everyone has the right to thier own opinions an I respect that, but my Question is who will actually stop watching, rooting for and coming to this website if he did come here?...I'm almost sure no one here would.....

We'll deal with it just like we dealt with Deion and the players from the senior citizen home, just like we dealt with 7 god awful years of Norv Turner, Gibbs's old offense, Al Sanders and the 700 page playbook, Clintons Antics.....and Danny's continued disregard for hiring a GM.
I, for one, have doubts about how remorseful he is. Every statement that he's made seems either insolent or like choreographed, contrived talking points recited by a guy who seems stoned or exceptionally dimwitted.

That said, I don't have a problem with giving a guy a second chance. Just not here. He is not a very good QB. He was an exceptional athlete but and arrogant one who thought that his athletic ability trumped the need to learn how to play the position at the NFL level. Effectively, you'd be brining in a 29 year old, green QB who's bee out of the game for 2 years because he was operating an interstate gambling outfit that just so happened to involve sociopathic behavior towards animals.

Do we *really* need that? I mean, we dealt with all the things you said because we either a) didn't see it coming, or b) have no control over it (Danny). Why knowingly bring a risk like Vick when the odds are stacked against him helping you as a QB?

[Hrabanmaur]

I'm not sure I buy Florio's assessment here.

It sounds mighty fishy to justify bringing in Vick to play the Wildcat this year as a back-up. I know we've looked for veteran back-ups to replace Collins, but Zorn has repeatedly and rather adamantly said he has no interest in running the Wildcat this year (and I think Zorn's right in his assessment -- that the Wildcat became less and less potent as the season progressed and defenses adjusted). Why would we bring Vick in to run a formation we're not going to play?

And...because we hired Haynesworth, who's had his own troubles, we'll hire Vick? I'm sorry but Haynesworth is not the national media lightning rod that Vick will be. This logic seems faulty.

Then, there's the issue of pay. I don't see us capable of offering much to Vick, and Vick needs a payday more than anything else. I see him going to the highest bidder with starting potential, and I don't see us in that arena.

Maybe, I'm just reading the tea leaves as I'd like the future to be (i.e. the Skins without Vick), but this all seems suspect.

[BurgundyNGold]

First: Vick is a convicted felon. IMO – ANY professional athlete who has been convicted of a felon should be banned from their sport. Second chance – by all means – there are plenty of OTHER opportunities out there but NOT in professional sports. A convicted felon gave up his/her privilege to earn a living in this area. ………… There are MANY cases where convicted felons cannot go back into the profession they once were earning a living in. That’s just the rules of the game (so to speak) but it doesn’t stop them from earning a living in other professions once they paid their debt to society.

Second: According to a report I heard this morning (didn’t catch the reporter’s name) on ESPN News - Vick is not actually suspended for 6 games. According to the letter the commissioner released regarding Vick’s status – the commissioner has up to the six weeks in the regular season to respond to Vicks request for Full reinstatement. It’s possible that Vick could be playing in regular games by week #2 or as late as week # 7.

Third: Washington Post lead sport article today “Vick Is Back. Now What?” has list of teams that would be the most likely where Vick would land. (Bills, Lions, Raiders, Rams, 49ers) Skins were not mentioned and I don’t think they are interested. (I guess that means he’ll be signed by the end of today – lol).

Bottom-line (IMO): The Skins do not need Michel Vick to have a successful season.
Well said. And that last part is the key. Vick cannot help us, he can only hurt us. He should go to Al Davis' Home for Wayward Boys out in Oakland lol.

[MONK_in_HOF]

I think the Danny feels the pressure and discontent mounting from the fanbase. Hence the sympathy piece that came out a few days ago. Therefore I can't see him taking a risk that would likely further alienate a good portion of the supporters. Still not surprised to see us linked with him though.
Like others have mentioned it wouldn't exactly be a solid football decision either. A guy who relied on extraordinary talent, struggled to grasp the mental side of the game, that is 2 years older and removed from the sport (unless you count prison football). Maybe if he could play WR.

[hockeygoalie29]

I don't buy it. Mainly because I don't think we'd be able to afford him under the cap. Everyone assumes that he is going to get nothing more than a vet min contract with a couple of incentives but if there are really serveral teams lining up for him he's going to be significantly more expensive than that. Someone will overpay for his "potential."

Secondly, we are not going to run the wildcat. Zorn all but reached through the phone and strangled Abe Pollin last year on his weekly call to the Sports Reporters when Pollin grilled him on refusing to run the wildcat. He wants no part of a gimmick offense that everyone will be prepared for this year. If we didn't run it with Randle El last year, that's a pretty clear indication it is not a part of the playbook.

[GreenspanDan]

well it wouldn't really matter if danny and vinnie had spent the last 6 months walking around in PETA t-shirts, there is no way the redskins weren't going to be mentioned in the media as an interested party. that's just the way it goes with snyder at the helm.

[joethefan]

I, for one, have doubts about how remorseful he is. Every statement that he's made seems either insolent or like choreographed, contrived talking points recited by a guy who seems stoned or exceptionally dimwitted.

That said, I don't have a problem with giving a guy a second chance. Just not here. He is not a very good QB. He was an exceptional athlete but and arrogant one who thought that his athletic ability trumped the need to learn how to play the position at the NFL level. Effectively, you'd be brining in a 29 year old, green QB who's bee out of the game for 2 years because he was operating an interstate gambling outfit that just so happened to involve sociopathic behavior towards animals.

Do we *really* need that? I mean, we dealt with all the things you said because we either a) didn't see it coming, or b) have no control over it (Danny). Why knowingly bring a risk like Vick when the odds are stacked against him helping you as a QB?

I don't understand that statement, If thats the case you can say that about any QB entering the league.

First of all, I'm sure you would have doubts about how remorseful he is...but did the Commissioner have those doubts while allowing him to come back? No. I wonder what you would you say or feel if you saw him crying and snotting all over every sports outlet ,Ophrah, Jimmy Kimmel Live, 20/20 CNN and others, would you have doubts then or would you still say he's remorseful?..You'd probably still say you don't beleive it... cmon. You see you believe that when the odds are stacked up against you, you cannot succeed, but would you tell that to Tony Dungy who has an effective prison ministry?. Tell that to the many man and women who came out of jail and have turned thier lives around..I believe that when the odds are against you, the impossible is GODs chance to make miracles happen. Not saying Mike will be a SB winning QB...but the miracle is that his life just may be changed for the better....

How do you think Jason Campbell got through his offseason issues...I'm sure he'll tell you it was his faith.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

We don't need him, I don't want him, but he has done his time and I hope he gets a chance to play somewhere.

[HAWGZHEAD]

I think we can pass on an animal torturing gambler that has the potential to possibly make the offense better. Find another way.

[lorimike]

I would take a flyer on Vick and sign him. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

[shally]

WaPo says NO in their insiders column today..

also rich tandler is his www.realredskins.com blog

[GreenspanDan]

even putting aside my personal grudge against the dude, i fail to see what he would bring. all anyone seems to be talking about are gimmick plays. this is the NFL. fads like the wildcat come and go but they never last and teams that employ those gimmicks never go deep in the playoffs anyway. superbowl winners have passers who can PASS.

all that's really beside the point, though, really. yeah he served his time so he has earned the right to walk around a free man but the NFL owes him nothing.

[fent]

the man paid the price for his sins (at least as decided by DOJ) and the commish has let him in. in the eyes of those that matter, he has earned the right to attempt to play again. that being said, a guy with a career rating of 75.7 and a career completion percentage of 53.8% isn't exactly a guy that I trust running a WCO. sure, he had a 1,000 yard rushing season and can use his legs, but he's also 29 now and hasn't played in 2 years so he's going to be seeing things a lot slower at least intially. throw in his "bust" receiver blowing up after he left, his airport drug issues, his juvenile reactions to his home fans not appreciating a piss poor run of games and this isn't a guy i want on the field or in the locker room of my team regardless of his off-field issues. when it comes down to it, the guy has paid the price and can be forgiven all you want, but his track record doesn't warrant consideration for employment on any team I run.

[Moe]

WaPo says NO in their insiders column today..

also rich tandler is his www.realredskins.com blog

Listening to Mike Wise on the radio and he said that he talked to Jason Reid (waPo) who asked Vincenzo if Vick was coming to the Skins last week and again yesterday and both times he was told 'No.' Cue up obligatory comments regarding VC's veracity in one, two.....


Personal opinions aside, from a football perspective Vick doesn't make any sense on the Skins. His skill set doesn't fit this offense, Zorn claims to not be interested in using the Wildcat, any gimmicky non-QB option plays can be better executed with ARE and adding him in throws off the QB depth, barring Colt and Daniel being completely incapable and deemed worhtless. Even then, he simply doesn't fit especially for a team that purportedly has expectations on winning. If Snyder wants him, then not only is this season over before it begins but that bleeds into next year and handcuffs any potential coaches. Just doesn't pass the smell test.

[Wild Bore]

To paraphrase a common expression to apply to the current situation:

"What would Joe Gibbs do?"

[RedskinsDave]

It would be nice to be able to commit a heinous crime, test positive for weed, lie to your employer and then have a chance to return to work.

To anyone acting like all Vick did was "something stupid", wake up and don't accuse people of living in glass houses.

[colkurtz]

Snyder is a poor owner but even he is not dumb enough to make this move. In prior years the FO did go to the team leaders to ask about someone controversial [I can't remember who]. No way the players leaders would want this controversy.

The fans, press, team would not support this move. No real top-tier coach would come here under this cloud.

The ONLY "plus" for acquiring Vick is that there would be a tidal wave of pure fan discontent against Snyder - which might force him to get some REAL NFL talent at GM and HC - after Vick is gone.

As for Vick himself - life is full of second chances. I hope he changes and becomes a better man. Just on someone else's team.

[GreenspanDan]

No way the players leaders would want this controversy.

dunno if portis counts as a leader, but i'm pretty sure he'd be into getting vick.

[DaveKShape]

i'm a dog lover, and what the dude did is completely ridiculous, to the point that if i ever saw him in person i'd have to really resist immediately punching him in the face. he's a complete a-hole and i'm sure he's probably not very sorry for what he did. i wouldn't be surprised if he gets into more legal trouble down the road once he gets comfortable.

somehow though, and i'm not saying i'm right by any means... him playing in the NFL again doesn't really bother me. there are countless players with crinimal records in the NFL. his football career doesn't seem related to his crimes, aside from one thing: kids who look up to him as a role model. at the same time, i'm sure any responsible parent would educate their kids that even though he *may* be a decent football player, that's pretty much where his goodness ends.

i say, let him play. if he's serious about being sorry, we'll see the effects with a humble demeanor and positive change. if not, like i believe, he'll fall into the same problems again and he'll put the nail in his own coffin.

as far as his playing on the skins, it'd be a mess, but snyder loves drama and the spotlight. it wouldn't surprise me if it happens. i don't think it'd cause me to stop being a fan though. it'd probably just make the whole poo-poo show of the snyder era even more darkly hilarious to me.

[shally]

dunno if portis counts as a leader, but i'm pretty sure he'd be into getting vick.

turning the asylum over to the inmates...

no thanks..

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't understand that statement, If thats the case you can say that about any QB entering the league.
No, you can't. There are only a rare few QBs who are such extraordinary athletes that they can get by on athletic ability and arm strength without ever having to apply themselves to the mental nuances of the positions before getting to the NFL. The difference with Vick was that he told his coaches and everyone else that he didn't need to learn QB skills because of his special athleticism. He had no interest in learning to be a QB frmo Day 1 of his NFL tenure to his final day before he got suspended.

First of all, I'm sure you would have doubts about how remorseful he is...but did the Commissioner have those doubts while allowing him to come back? No. I wonder what you would you say or feel if you saw him crying and snotting all over every sports outlet ,Ophrah, Jimmy Kimmel Live, 20/20 CNN and others, would you have doubts then or would you still say he's remorseful?..
Actually, yes, I would see the remorse in that. But he wouldn't have to do that much. Starting off by showing some human emotion and regret and not persisting like a hollow sociopath would suffice.

You'd probably still say you don't beleive it... cmon.
I'll thank you not to tell me what I'd believe.

You see you believe that when the odds are stacked up against you, you cannot succeed, but would you tell that to Tony Dungy who has an effective prison ministry?. Tell that to the many man and women who came out of jail and have turned thier lives around..I believe that when the odds are against you, the impossible is GODs chance to make miracles happen. Not saying Mike will be a SB winning QB...but the miracle is that his life just may be changed for the better....
Your proselytizing aside, I haven't seen Michael Vick give himself over to anyone but Michael Vick. And none of this has anything to do with the facts that he a) has not shown regret for his actions (showing regret for one's predicament is not the same thing), b) is not a very good QB -- if not a team wrecker -- and he should not be a Redskin.

How do you think Jason Campbell got through his offseason issues...I'm sure he'll tell you it was his faith.
You're comparing apples and elephants here. Jason Campbell is the antithesis of everything Michael Vick is and that Micahel Vick represents. One is, by all accounts, a good and decent human being. The other is a narcissitic sociopath who has been convicted of systematically torturing and murdering dozens of animals and has yet to show any real remorse for his actions.

[akhhorus]

To paraphrase a common expression to apply to the current situation:

"What would Joe Gibbs do?"

Mildly object as Snyder offers Vick a 5 year contract?

[BurgundyNGold]

Mildly object as Snyder offers Vick a 5 year contract?
And then cover for Snyder by assuming responsibility lol.

[akhhorus]

And then cover for Snyder by assuming responsibility lol.

"Michael Vick, man he's super smart....." ?

[frankez99]

It would be nice to be able to commit a heinous crime, test positive for weed, lie to your employer and then have a chance to return to work.

To anyone acting like all Vick did was "something stupid", wake up and don't accuse people of living in glass houses.

Amen RedskinsDave.

To think that people are actually considering this is absurb. If he did 2 months in prison, people would still state "he paid his debt to society". I'm trying to think of what Uncle Sam would do if I asked for "forgiveness" after doing 1/10th of his crimes......nope, I'm not welcome back to my "company" because I am a felon; I lost my right of association......and it would all be my FAULT.

Plus, in the end, he really wasn't that good.

He can rehabilitate himself in another occupation and hopefully get his life straightened out.....and possibly help his loser little brother out as well. What a complete waste of a god-given skill.

Take care.

[akhhorus]

Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/cerrato-says-no-on-vick/)

Thank you Jesus, Buddha, Allah and L Ron Hubbard.

[Red Bear]

Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/cerrato-says-no-on-vick/)

Thank you Jesus, Buddha, Allah and L Ron Hubbard.

this is no new development. the skins already said they werent interested in vick awhile back, evident by them already being on PFTs anti-vick list for some time now...

[SkinsGuru]

First: Vick is a convicted felon. IMO – ANY professional athlete who has been convicted of a felon should be banned from their sport. Second chance – by all means – there are plenty of OTHER opportunities out there but NOT in professional sports. A convicted felon gave up his/her privilege to earn a living in this area. ………… There are MANY cases where convicted felons cannot go back into the profession they once were earning a living in. That’s just the rules of the game (so to speak) but it doesn’t stop them from earning a living in other professions once they paid their debt to society.

First off let me start by saying i am NOT a Vick fan at all. What he did to those dogs is horrendous . . . and 2nd i don't want Vick the football player here at all . . . he is not a good football player or at least not a good QB . . . that being said, he served his time. Regardless of whether or not any of us feel his sentance was severe enough, he served was was asked of him. You say he should be banned from the sport . . . the NFS is a job industry . . . if he were an construction worker before he went to jail would he be banned from the construction industry??? along those same lines, if he were a bagger at the grocery store before the crimes and then was spotted running a 4.2 40 and someone gave him a try out as a punt returner, per you logic it would be ok for him to work in the NFL, but not as a bagger in the grocery store anymore . . .

sorry the logic deosn't make sense . . . he servered him time and he deserves a second chance . . . IMO

[GibbsFan]

IMO Vick was/is over rated. Remarkable talent, yes. Remarkable QB, no. I don't want him. Not because he is a convicted felon. Not because he was insanely cruel to dogs.

I don't want him because his best days are probably behind him. I don't want him because he would be the ultimate distraction to this team at this time. Think TO to the 5th power. I want Jason to have his chance. He may succeed, or fail, I don't know. But if you want to get someone Snyder, get a WR to help him out.

Will the Redskins sign Vick? Possibly. Would it really surprise anyone if they did? No, we will only be surprised when they give up and quit, and sell the team.

[akhhorus]

First off let me start by saying i am NOT a Vick fan at all. What he did to those dogs is horrendous . . . and 2nd i don't want Vick the football player here at all . . . he is not a good football player or at least not a good QB . . . that being said, he served his time. Regardless of whether or not any of us feel his sentance was severe enough, he served was was asked of him. You say he should be banned from the sport . . . the NFS is a job industry . . . if he were an construction worker before he went to jail would he be banned from the construction industry??? along those same lines, if he were a bagger at the grocery store before the crimes and then was spotted running a 4.2 40 and someone gave him a try out as a punt returner, per you logic it would be ok for him to work in the NFL, but not as a bagger in the grocery store anymore . . .

sorry the logic deosn't make sense . . . he servered him time and he deserves a second chance . . . IMO

If he was one of the highest paid construction workers in the country who was using his money from working construction to finance a long term criminal conspiracy involving drugs and illegal gambling, it's extremely doubtful that another construction company would hire him.

He deserves a 2nd chance to become a law abiding citizen. There's no right to play professional football.

[frankez99]

You say he should be banned from the sport . . . the NFS is a job industry . . . if he were an construction worker before he went to jail would he be banned from the construction industry???
sorry the logic deosn't make sense . . . he servered him time and he deserves a second chance . . . IMO

The NFL is a COMPANY that HIRED him. It isn't a "job industry" because there is no other COMPANY in professional football. There is only one NFL and thousands of construction companies. Your analogy of construction work is way off base.

If I am convicted of a crime such as his, and the military seperates me; none of the sister services would accept me because I broke their rules (as a comglomerate), it was my fault, and I've blown my chance; end of story. Each company has rules that you agree to; some with reprocussions more severe than others.

But guess what? I could find another job in a different "job industry" (which I really don't know what that means); i.e. construction work. Unfortunately my federal career would be over.....but hey....it was my fault, right?

It is ultimately up to the NFL if they want to re-instate him. I just hope they don't and he moves on with his life and becomes a law-abiding citizen that contributes positively to the community.

Plus he isn't coming here so I guess......./thread. Take care.

[Patrick]

First off let me start by saying i am NOT a Vick fan at all. What he did to those dogs is horrendous . . . and 2nd i don't want Vick the football player here at all . . . he is not a good football player or at least not a good QB . . . that being said, he served his time. Regardless of whether or not any of us feel his sentance was severe enough, he served was was asked of him. You say he should be banned from the sport . . . the NFS is a job industry . . . if he were an construction worker before he went to jail would he be banned from the construction industry??? along those same lines, if he were a bagger at the grocery store before the crimes and then was spotted running a 4.2 40 and someone gave him a try out as a punt returner, per you logic it would be ok for him to work in the NFL, but not as a bagger in the grocery store anymore . . .

sorry the logic deosn't make sense . . . he servered him time and he deserves a second chance . . . IMO

And if he were an elected offical
OR a law enforcement offical (you pick the branch)
OR a airline pilot
OR a federal employee
(need I go on) he would not be hired again.

[Patrick]

Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/cerrato-says-no-on-vick/)

Thank you Jesus, Buddha, Allah and L Ron Hubbard.
That said, circumstances have changed dramatically in the past 18 hours. And so, as teams begin to chase Vick, we don't rule out the possibility that a team that already has said "no" will at least revisit its position. ......... Mike Florio seems to always leave himself another chapter ......

[SkinsGuru]

If he was one of the highest paid construction workers in the country who was using his money from working construction to finance a long term criminal conspiracy involving drugs and illegal gambling, it's extremely doubtful that another construction company would hire him.

He deserves a 2nd chance to become a law abiding citizen. There's no right to play professional football.

lol . . . but it would be up to the construction companies as to whether or not he gets an opportunity . . . there is no way the insustry would tell he cannot work in construction . . .

the only thing it takes to have the right to play in the NFL is talent and the fact that you are a free man . . . Vick has both of those . . . don't hold the NFL people above the rest of the world . . .

[SkinsGuru]

And if he were an elected offical
OR a law enforcement offical (you pick the branch)
OR a airline pilot
OR a federal employee
(need I go on) he would not be hired again.

again . . . he may not be hired, but would not be banned from the industry . . .

[SkinsGuru]

The NFL is a COMPANY that HIRED him. It isn't a "job industry" because there is no other COMPANY in professional football. There is only one NFL and thousands of construction companies. Your analogy of construction work is way off base.

If I am convicted of a crime such as his, and the military seperates me; none of the sister services would accept me because I broke their rules (as a comglomerate), it was my fault, and I've blown my chance; end of story. Each company has rules that you agree to; some with reprocussions more severe than others.

But guess what? I could find another job in a different "job industry" (which I really don't know what that means); i.e. construction work. Unfortunately my federal career would be over.....but hey....it was my fault, right?

It is ultimately up to the NFL if they want to re-instate him. I just hope they don't and he moves on with his life and becomes a law-abiding citizen that contributes positively to the community.

Plus he isn't coming here so I guess......./thread. Take care.

the NFL is not a company . . . the Redskins are . . . do the ticket salesman who work at the Redskins ticket office get hired by NFL ???? no they get hired by the Redskins . . . .

There are 32 cometitive companies in the industry that is the NFL . . . NONE of them have to hire him . . . .

[SkinsfaninNJ]

again . . . he may not be hired, but would not be banned from the industry . . .

Every case is different and I don't know for sure, but I think there is a very good chance I would lose my license to practice law for life in the states I practice if I were convicted of the same crimes.

[CNYSkinFan]

the NFL is not a company . . . the Redskins are . . . do the ticket salesman who work at the Redskins ticket office get hired by NFL ???? no they get hired by the Redskins . . . .

There are 32 cometitive companies in the industry that is the NFL . . . NONE of them have to hire him . . . .

Your analogy is a bit off. These are not 32 seperate companies in the same industry, they have overall goals and must answer to a higher body.

This is more like 32 seperate franchises operating under a same name. They compete in sales (ticket revenue) and devoted customers (fans) as well intra company achievement awards (superbowl) but the players are first and foremost employees of the NFL. the NFL when ist suspends players, does not do so for a single team but for all teams. That proves that the NFL is the employer while they are assigned to certain franchises to "manage" them.

Vick used his status as an NFL employee to propogate a felony and lied to the commissioner about it. I for one wish the commissioner would have banned him for life and made him an example but since that boat has passed I simply say please Danny don't tarnish the B&G by bringing him here.

[frankez99]

the NFL is not a company . . . the Redskins are . . . do the ticket salesman who work at the Redskins ticket office get hired by NFL ???? no they get hired by the Redskins . . . .

There are 32 cometitive companies in the industry that is the NFL . . . NONE of them have to hire him . . . .

Wow; you do not know how wrong you are. I can tell you love semantics; but in the end, it is just circular logic.

Ask yourself this: if the league says Micheal Vick is suspended for the year, can the Redskins still sign him because he is free from prison and talented or however you put it? Those are the only stipulations for getting hired? Do you think the teams "make the rules"?

The NFL is a company, the Redskins work for the NFL. Sure, under the guise of an NFL employee, teams hire all of their sub-employees, but EVERY NFL CONTRACT GOES THROUGH THE NFL OFFICE and the counterbalance for the players is the NFLPA and Union. How hard is this to understand?

Get back with me once the teams start making the rules on behalf of the NFL.

[Redskin4Life]

Your analogy is a bit off. These are not 32 seperate companies in the same industry, they have overall goals and must answer to a higher body.

This is more like 32 seperate franchises operating under a same name. They compete in sales (ticket revenue) and devoted customers (fans) as well intra company achievement awards (superbowl) but the players are first and foremost employees of the NFL. the NFL when ist suspends players, does not do so for a single team but for all teams. That proves that the NFL is the employer while they are assigned to certain franchises to "manage" them.

Vick used his status as an NFL employee to propogate a felony and lied to the commissioner about it. I for one wish the commissioner would have banned him for life and made him an example but since that boat has passed I simply say please Danny don't tarnish the B&G by bringing him here.
Exactly... the NFL is like McDonalds. I can own a store as long as I abide to the rules and regulations set forth by the McDonalds corporate office. McDonalds in Raleigh is not it's own company... just as the Redskins aren't either.

[Redskin4Life]

Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/cerrato-says-no-on-vick/)

Thank you Jesus, Buddha, Allah and L Ron Hubbard.
Don't forget Krishna... Thank you Krishna too.

[CNYSkinFan]

Don't forget Krishna... Thank you Krishna too.

Add in Joseph Smith and the Super Best friends saved us!!!

[skin4ever]

On the practical side, the skins shouldnt even kick the tires with Vick. Given the offseason so far(cutler and Draft) and the fact that TC is here, JC(and this team, in general given the current concerns across the board) dont need this distraction. As much as I have my doubts about JC, he deserves this shot to see what he has, free from any controversy(at least during TC and the first half of the season) and Mike Vick would only be a distraction and cause JC confidence to wane before he has a chance to build it up.

But for those who think Vick is remorseful for what he did, IMO he isnt. If it were legalized today and he wouldnt get in trouble for doing it(gambling, killing, etc), he would do it. Not that its his fault, entirely, but CP even said it, its pervasive down south and not uncommon. The only reason Vick is remorseful is because he got caught with his pants down and the national society does not accept this as Vick and his friends do and he has to say it if he wants back into the NFL and wanted to stay away from a pissed off judge's harsh hammer and avoid a long sentence. Maybe he realized that he eff'ed up big time and wont do it again, but not because he is sorry for what hes done, but because if he gets a second shot at the NFL and he learned his lesson when he lost all that money.

I also agree with Akh that he deserves his shot at being a law abiding citizen, but not in the NFL. What kind of precedent does this show the world, if you have the talent, you too can run a gambling ring, fight, torture and kill dogs, and who knows what else, and still get another shot. It would be interesting(not interesting, but more like a bet between the Duke brothers in Trading places) to see if he was banned and forced to live as an everyday joe, if he would go back to gambling and fighting dogs.

That all being said, i hope he takes advantage of the circumstance he finds himself, and becomes a good person. Just not a QB for the skins.

[Redskin4Life]

Now that Vinny C has said we're not interested... I'll put my two cents in with the comfort of knowing Vick's not going to be a Skin.

I honestly think that Michael Vick should go to a team with a stable, legit starter at QB. The fact of the matter is he's best suited to go to a team and learn what it's like to be a QB. He needs to sit and watch for a while. Teams like the Patriots, Colts, Bengals, Eagles and Seahawks have a legit starter at QB and could handle having Vick as their backup.

Or a team with a great running game. He would just compliment what they're already good at... and would be a threat himself to run one in. Teams like the Ravens, Titans, Giants, Steelers, Falcons and Vikings have running games that are tops in the league and have the OLinemen that can give Vick time to "look around for a receiver" if he has to throw.

[SkinsGuru]

Wow; you do not know how wrong you are. I can tell you love semantics; but in the end, it is just circular logic.

Ask yourself this: if the league says Micheal Vick is suspended for the year, can the Redskins still sign him because he is free from prison and talented or however you put it? Those are the only stipulations for getting hired? Do you think the teams "make the rules"?

The NFL is a company, the Redskins work for the NFL. Sure, under the guise of an NFL employee, teams hire all of their sub-employees, but EVERY NFL CONTRACT GOES THROUGH THE NFL OFFICE and the counterbalance for the players is the NFLPA and Union. How hard is this to understand?

Get back with me once the teams start making the rules on behalf of the NFL.

he can still get a job with the Redskins yes . . . maybe not play football . . . but he can be employed by any of the teams . . .

[akhhorus]

lol . . . but it would be up to the construction companies as to whether or not he gets an opportunity . . . there is no way the insustry would tell he cannot work in construction . . .

Except that the "industry" in this case is a closed network of 32 companies who all work together for a common goal. And yes, there are industries(and unions) that can blackball workers for felonies and for whatever reasons they want to. Try having a felony on your record and getting a bonded job or a security clearance. In order for you to be consistent with your logic, anyone should have a right to work any job regardless of the standards the employers put up, and thats patently absurd.

the only thing it takes to have the right to play in the NFL is talent and the fact that you are a free man . . . Vick has both of those . . . don't hold the NFL people above the rest of the world . . .

There is no right to play in the NFL. Its a privilege. And there are plenty of players who never found a team after they were bounced for any number of off the field reasons.

[Redskin4Life]

There is no right to play in the NFL. Its a privilege. And there are plenty of players who never found a team after they were bounced for any number of off the field reasons.
Jeff George for example.... according to reports, he's being blackballed not due to his skills.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/jeff-george-workout-tape-creating-a-buzz/

[akhhorus]

Jeff George for example.... according to reports, he's being blackballed not due to his skills.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/jeff-george-workout-tape-creating-a-buzz/

How about Plaxico. No one will even try him out.

[skin4ever]

There is no right to play in the NFL. Its a privilege. And there are plenty of players who never found a team after they were bounced for any number of off the field reasons.

As much as i agree with you in regard to the players do not have a right to play in the NFL and that its a privilege. I cant think of players who did not get chance after chance if they had talent. Pacman immediately comes to mind as does Chris Henry. Only name i can think of in support of your statement is Robbins the center for the raiders(but we may never knw given the time between him being cut and being arrested), but i think the stigma of his mental disorder had something to do with it. Unfortunately, thats the kind of message the NFL is sending and these guys may be taking advantage of it. You got talent and you can make us money, we will find away to give you chance after chance. I think there is a list a mile long of players who were avg./mdiocre and screwed up and never really was given another shot, Albert Connell for example(yes, i knw he went to another team).
(Amended Post)
I took so long to type my post, i found your post to answer my question, but the jury is still out on burress because IMO, he is in limbo, if the NFL reinstated him today and his legal disposition over or known, I will bet teams would be trying him out and he would get another bite at the nfl apple.

[SkinsGuru]

How about Plaxico. No one will even try him out.

but Plaxico is going to go to jail . . . i bet he will get another chance once he has served his time

[Gravy]

but Plaxico is going to go to jail . . . i bet he will get another chance once he has served his time

...Except that Plaxy is already in his 30's and after prison he will be close to his 40's if not 40 and older...

[akhhorus]

but Plaxico is going to go to jail . . . i bet he will get another chance once he has served his time

At 33-35 years old? No way. And there's still no right to play even if you can potentially still play. if that was true, a player could sue to force his way onto a roster.

As much as i agree with you in regard to the players do not have a right to play in the NFL and that its a privilege. I cant think of players who did not get chance after chance if they had talent. Pacman immediately comes to mind as does Chris Henry. Only name i can think of in support of your statement is Robbins the center for the raiders(but we may never knw given the time between him being cut and being arrested), but i think the stigma of his mental disorder had something to do with it. Unfortunately, thats the kind of message the NFL is sending and these guys may be taking advantage of it. You got talent and you can make us money, we will find away to give you chance after chance. I think there is a list a mile long of players who were avg./mdiocre and screwed up and never really was given another shot, Albert Connell for example(yes, i knw he went to another team).

PacMan and Chris Henry didn't do anything close to what vick did. Both of them committed multiple felonies and were involved with a bunch of bad situations, but neither one ran some long term criminal conspiracy that started before they were even NFL players. PacMan and henry(among many others) are headcases who should be out of the NFL, but none of them used the NFL to finance an ongoing criminal conspiracy.

Robbins retired due to a mental illness. I believe he was given a chance after his pre-super bowl meltdown, but couldn't do it.

Connell never returned to the NFL after his locker room incident. He was out of football for a year, and got another shot in Canada.

(Amended Post)
I took so long to type my post, i found your post to answer my question, but the jury is still out on burress because IMO, he is in limbo, if the NFL reinstated him today and his legal disposition over or known, I will bet teams would be trying him out and he would get another bite at the nfl apple.

I believe Plaxico isn't under suspension currently. So, he wouldn't need reinstatement to work out with anyone(or sign with anyone).

[SkinsGuru]

At 33-35 years old? No way. And there's still no right to play even if you can potentially still play. if that was true, a player could sue to force his way onto a roster.

you lost me here . . . so why would he bable to sue his way onto a roster??? Teams have the right to hire or NOT hire anyone they want . . . as for Plaxico . . . IMO . . . the only reason he is not being sought after is because everyone expects him to be in jail for this season . . . if charges are dropped or he doesn't get jail time . . . i would imagine there would be plenty of teams interested in him once done with whatever punishment the NFL imposes on him . . . don't forget . . . Vick has already been suspended for 32 games . . .

[akhhorus]

you lost me here . . . so why would he bable to sue his way onto a roster??? Teams have the right to hire or NOT hire anyone they want

So, there's no right to play professional football if you have the skills? You said this:


the only thing it takes to have the right to play in the NFL is talent and the fact that you are a free man . . . Vick has both of those . . . don't hold the NFL people above the rest of the world . . .

Which is it now? If potential players have a right to play in the NFL if they can, then they have the right to sue a team to force them to sign them. If they don't have the right to sue to get on an NFL team, then there's no right to play in the NFL. Either everyone has a right to play in the NFL and can force a team to sign them, or no one does.

. . . as for Plaxico . . . IMO . . . the only reason he is not being sought after is because everyone expects him to be in jail for this season . . . if charges are dropped or he doesn't get jail time . .

Wrong, wrong and wrong. He's in front of a grand jury now, and it will be at least midseason before his trial begins(and his attorneys can ask for delay until after the season). The NFL hasn't suspended him, so there's no legal barriers to him playing this season.

. i would imagine there would be plenty of teams interested in him once done with whatever punishment the NFL imposes on him . . . don't forget . . . Vick has already been suspended for 32 games . . .

Don't make me laugh: Vick has been in a federal jail cell for almost two years. Even if the NFL didn't suspend him, he couldn't get out for practices and games.

And explain something else to me: why exactly are you acting like Vick is the victim here? To read your posts, one would think that you think that the NFL is being evil for daring to keep out some criminal from their league.

[frankez99]

he can still get a job with the Redskins yes . . . maybe not play football . . . but he can be employed by any of the teams . . .

What exactly are you trying to say? Is the argument not about the NFL's right as a COMPANY to ban players from its league or the right of an NFL FRANCHISE to hire someone as a (examples) ticket agent or ball boy?

If you insinuating that he would come back in any capacity aside from a football player then this debate is over.

Wow.

[BurgundyNGold]

As much as i agree with you in regard to the players do not have a right to play in the NFL and that its a privilege. I cant think of players who did not get chance after chance if they had talent. Pacman immediately comes to mind as does Chris Henry. Only name i can think of in support of your statement is Robbins the center for the raiders(but we may never knw given the time between him being cut and being arrested), but i think the stigma of his mental disorder had something to do with it. Unfortunately, thats the kind of message the NFL is sending and these guys may be taking advantage of it. You got talent and you can make us money, we will find away to give you chance after chance. I think there is a list a mile long of players who were avg./mdiocre and screwed up and never really was given another shot, Albert Connell for example(yes, i knw he went to another team).
(Amended Post)
I took so long to type my post, i found your post to answer my question, but the jury is still out on burress because IMO, he is in limbo, if the NFL reinstated him today and his legal disposition over or known, I will bet teams would be trying him out and he would get another bite at the nfl apple.
Did that TE from the Packers who raped his babysitter get let back in the league? I can't recall.

[akhhorus]

Did that TE from the Packers who raped his babysitter get let back in the league? I can't recall.

Mark Chmura. Nope, he was cut after he was charged and never got back into the league. If memory serves there were some rumors that the skins had an interest in him in 2000, but never brought him in for a workout.

[shally]

Mark Chmura. Nope, he was cut after he was charged and never got back into the league. If memory serves there were some rumors that the skins had an interest in him in 2000, but never brought him in for a workout.

supposedly we were mildly interested in him, but i think in his case, the deterioration of his talents trumped any legal issues he might have had..
for anyone who doesnt believe this, you can see that jeremy stephens, who is a total scumbag and sexual predator is still playing for Tampa..

[akhhorus]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/michael-vick-has-an-idea-where-hell-play/


Despite this, Vick reportedly was saying recently that he thinks he'll wind up with the 49ers or Redskins, according to Jason Reid of the Washington Post.

Of course, those comments from Vick presumably came before Redskins kingpin Vinny Cerrato said the team isn't interested.

Reid went on to reference two sources that confirmed nothing is happening with the Redskins, although his sources warned that anything can happen if owner Dan Snyder wants a player.

It remains to be seen if the 49ers have any interest.

Adam Schefter wrote on his Twitter account earlier Tuesday that you could rule San Francisco out. GM Scott McCloughan did the same publicly earlier this offseason, after coach Mike Singletary appeared to keep the door open to the possibility.

[skin4ever]

PacMan and Chris Henry didn't do anything close to what vick did. Both of them committed multiple felonies and were involved with a bunch of bad situations, but neither one ran some long term criminal conspiracy that started before they were even NFL players. PacMan and henry(among many others) are headcases who should be out of the NFL, but none of them used the NFL to finance an ongoing criminal conspiracy.
Agreed but those two i posted in response to your previous post which stated, "There is no right to play in the NFL. Its a privilege. And there are plenty of players who never found a team after they were bounced for any number of off the field reasons. They have been and repeatedly get chnces was my point. I dont know of the plenty of players you are talking about. BL, in the NFL if u have talent or are marketable someone will give you a chance. Whether you are involved in a criminal conspiracy, kill/maim dogs, drink and drive, convicted of manslaughter, drug possession, whatever.


Robbins retired due to a mental illness. I believe he was given a chance after his pre-super bowl meltdown, but couldn't do it.
You might be right. I was really trying to find a talented player(who still is viewed as having talent) who never found a team after getting cut for negative reasons.I thought he was cut for substance abuse. I looked around but couldnt find that any team had interest in him before he was arrested.

Connell never returned to the NFL after his locker room incident. He was out of football for a year, and got another shot in Canada.
Thats why i brought him up. He never really got another shot, but hes not exactly talented either.

I believe Plaxico isn't under suspension currently. So, he wouldn't need reinstatement to work out with anyone(or sign with anyone).

You are right but hes not exactly marketable because his legal disposition is uncertain. Once that happens, we will know more.

[skin4ever]

Did that TE from the Packers who raped his babysitter get let back in the league? I can't recall.

I cant recall either, but even hardcore criminals in prison dont take kindly to rapists and such. Good pull though, but like Shally said, i dont think he was in his prime. This should be a jeopardy question: Name a talented NFL player who was convicted of a felony and never was resigned to an NFL team? Thats unfortunate, as Akh says, NFL is not a right.

[akhhorus]

Agreed but those two i posted in response to your previous post which stated, "There is no right to play in the NFL. Its a privilege. And there are plenty of players who never found a team after they were bounced for any number of off the field reasons. They have been and repeatedly get chnces was my point. I dont know of the plenty of players you are talking about.

PacMan would be one of the players I would be talking about. He clearly has some physical ability left. Albert Connell would be another. Rodney Harrison, John Welbourn, Joe Horn(who has struggled to find new teams because he slept with Willie Roaf's wife apparently), Todd Saurebrun(who's been arrested multiple times and caught using roids) etc etc would be other names. I don't care enough to assemble some list, but I'm certain that I could find plenty of other names who fit that list.

BL, in the NFL if u have talent or are marketable someone will give you a chance. Whether you are involved in a criminal conspiracy, kill/maim dogs, drink and drive, convicted of manslaughter, drug possession, whatever.

I disagree with that. At some point teams just stop caring regardless of your talent level.

Thats why i brought him up. He never really got another shot, but hes not exactly talented either.


He was productive, the reason he never got another shot because no one wanted to deal with him in the locker room.

You are right but hes not exactly marketable because his legal disposition is uncertain. Once that happens, we will know more.

Even if he went to jail, a team could retain his rights if they wanted to. Teams aren't even bringing him in for workouts. That says a lot.

[akhhorus]

I cant recall either, but even hardcore criminals in prison dont take kindly to rapists and such. Good pull though, but like Shally said, i dont think he was in his prime. This should be a jeopardy question: Name a talented NFL player who was convicted of a felony and never was resigned to an NFL team? Thats unfortunate, as Akh says, NFL is not a right.

Chmura wasn't convicted. Your question is extremely selective since few NFL players get arrested for felonies(and statistically the ones who are aren't that talented), but the closest players to fit that paradigm would be Odell Thurman or Matt Jones.

[shally]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/07/28/michael-vick-has-an-idea-where-hell-play/

good. let him go to the niners...

[shally]

Chmura wasn't convicted. Your question is extremely selective since few NFL players get arrested for felonies(and statistically the ones who are aren't that talented), but the closest players to fit that paradigm would be Odell Thurman or Matt Jones.

wasnt our own tony peters convicted of drug related issues, and never played again ?

[Skins7ny]

wasnt our own tony peters convicted of drug related issues, and never played again ?
I think Peters came back and played for somebody-it might even have been us. I cannot remember for sure. Can you believe that was 30 years ago!

[skin4ever]

Chmura wasn't convicted. Your question is extremely selective since few NFL players get arrested for felonies(and statistically the ones who are aren't that talented), but the closest players to fit that paradigm would be Odell Thurman or Matt Jones.

I agree the question is extremely selective, but with this Mike VIck situation its the one that we are talking about. I agree, that Mike Vick isnt even that good of a QB(on paper) but he can fill those seats and has a pretty good win-loss column(ibelieve, didnt bother to check it out)

Your PacMan point just hit me, Duh, I didnt even think that teams arent talking to him NOW. I guess he is the one player where the NFL collectively had enough. I used him as a player who got chance after chance and who is talented.

I will disagree with you about Thurman and Jones, in this discussion, as they are no where near the talent level of VIck. they may have had prospective talent, but never did anything(did thruman even make it to play an NFL game? serious question, not being a smart ass) on the field to give a team a willingness to pick them up. But i see your point.

Still, seems as if talent can go a long way to giving someone a lot more chances than others.

[akhhorus]

I agree the question is extremely selective, but with this Mike VIck situation its the one that we are talking about. I agree, that Mike Vick isnt even that good of a QB(on paper) but he can fill those seats and has a pretty good win-loss column(ibelieve, didnt bother to check it out)

Vick's w/l is 38-28-1. He's 81st on the career Qb rating list. He's 113th on the career passing yardage list(374 yards ahead of Tim Couch). He's not a good Qb and I don't know if he's going to "fill seats." For every fan who might be excited by him, there will be at least another who will be turned off by seeing him on the field.

Your PacMan point just hit me, Duh, I didnt even think that teams arent talking to him NOW. I guess he is the one player where the NFL collectively had enough. I used him as a player who got chance after chance and who is talented.

I will disagree with you about Thurman and Jones, in this discussion, as they are no where near the talent level of VIck. they may have had prospective talent, but never did anything(did thruman even make it to play an NFL game? serious question, not being a smart ass) on the field to give a team a willingness to pick them up. But i see your point.

Thurman will always be a never was. He only played 1 year and had 98 tackles and 5 Ints as a rookie Lb. I believe he finished 2nd to Merriman as defensive rookie of the year. Matt Jones had 761 yards receiving last year(ahead of guys like Anthony Gonzalez, Mark Clayton, Donnie Avery, the NY Steve Smith, etc) and no one is interested in him.

Another example for you is Marvin Harrison. No one wants anything to do with him because he seems to have a pesky habit of shooting people in Philly(or having people shot, which is the latest accusation).

Still, seems as if talent can go a long way to giving someone a lot more chances than others.

Talent might get you a 2nd chance, but I wouldn't call Michael Vick that talented. He's totally dependent on his speed, and he's been out of the league for 2 years. If he looks slow footed, I would be surprised if anyone signs him.

[skin4ever]

PacMan would be one of the players I would be talking about. He clearly has some physical ability left. Albert Connell would be another. Rodney Harrison, John Welbourn, Joe Horn(who has struggled to find new teams because he slept with Willie Roaf's wife apparently), Todd Saurebrun(who's been arrested multiple times and caught using roids) etc etc would be other names. I don't care enough to assemble some list, but I'm certain that I could find plenty of other names who fit that list.
These guys(except for pacman and connell) are definitely not considered to be in their prime, and while they were at one time excellent players, they arent anymore thus a wrinkle as why they werent picked up. Issues and Old=death to NFL career.


disagree with that. At some point teams just stop caring regardless of your talent level.
I agree, although Pacman Jones may be the only player in NFL history to do so.(player who fits criteria i am discussing)


was productive, the reason he never got another shot because no one wanted to deal with him in the locker room.

http://www.nfl.com/players/albertconnell/profile?id=CON386729 I dont know about that, but who cares, I agree that no one wanted to deal with him inthe locker room at all.

Even if he went to jail, a team could retain his rights if they wanted to. Teams aren't even bringing him in for workouts. That says a lot.

I think that if he goes to jail(mandatory min. 3.5 yrs.) hes done, but if he pleas out and gets probation or something, i think teams will call. But that remains to be seen. But youmight be right, with Goddell in charge, teams might stop taking chances on these players as their suspensions and headaches arent worth it.

[MadDog97]

when we cut another qb i will start to sweat...

1. I think Vick should be allowed to play.

2. But please, please not in Washington.

3. Favre turned down the Vikes. Maybe he finds a home in Minnesota.

[akhhorus]

These guys(except for pacman and connell) are definitely not considered to be in their prime, and while they were at one time excellent players, they arent anymore thus a wrinkle as why they werent picked up. Issues and Old=death to NFL career.

Horn had nearly 700 yards in 12 games his last year in New Orleans. Welbourn started 16 games for a good KC line in 07. Harrison had 45 tackles and an INT in 6 games last year. Sauerbrun averaged nearly 47 yards per punt in his last year in Denver. You can't tell me that no one would want any of them on talent after they were released.

I agree, although Pacman Jones may be the only player in NFL history to do so.(player who fits criteria i am discussing)


I've shown that effective players can't get a job because of off the field issues. Jones, Harrison, Sauerbrun and thats without heavy research into the issue.


I think that if he goes to jail(mandatory min. 3.5 yrs.) hes done, but if he pleas out and gets probation or something, i think teams will call. But that remains to be seen. But youmight be right, with Goddell in charge, teams might stop taking chances on these players as their suspensions and headaches arent worth it.

He can't plea out and just get probation. If he pleas, he's going to jail. Even if the charges are dismissed, its far from a lock that he'll find a new team. Another player for you: Dante Stallworth. Do you think he'll get another chance in 2 or so years after Goodell lets him back in?

[bigmike7914]

Shoot me.before i pull the trigger i'll peek and see what happens, if we sign him and win then I'll put the gun down, but if we begin to crumble then I'll shoot.

[MDBluefinCrab]

I don't even want this murdering thug hired as the Redskins water boy.
I'm sure he'll get picked up by some club though as the
NFL is full of thugs and Hollywood wannabes. To hell with morality, it's all about winning....at any cost.

[skin4ever]

Horn had nearly 700 yards in 12 games his last year in New Orleans. Welbourn started 16 games for a good KC line in 07. Harrison had 45 tackles and an INT in 6 games last year. Sauerbrun averaged nearly 47 yards per punt in his last year in Denver. You can't tell me that no one would want any of them on talent after they were released.
Rodney harrison hasnt played a full season since 2004. Welbourn retired, said he did it on his own terms, knee injury, multiple drug busts(performance enhancers), kyle turley signed and other factors. He then signed with the Patriots and was cut in 2008. Saurburn is a punter first of all, second, hes gotten plenty of chances(a hell of a lot more given the fact that he is just a punter, still the skins should have taken a look at him.JK) Most of the guys you named are older than Vick and teams will certainly take that into account. (that punter was a great pull though) BUt honestly, i just couldnt name any, youve shown some to me. But you can certainly agree if you got talent you get alot of chances. To me, Pacman is the only one who compares to this situation from a youth, skilled, top of his game player who teams dont want and have had enough. I think we agree, we just have different criteria.


He can't plea out and just get probation. If he pleas, he's going to jail. Even if the charges are dismissed, its far from a lock that he'll find a new team. Another player for you: Dante Stallworth. Do you think he'll get another chance in 2 or so years after Goodell lets him back in?

Why not? He can plea to a lesser charge and get probation. As for Dante, actually I dont know, 2 yrs is a long time, but again, he isnot on the level of Vick. Vick is an anomoly in the NFL, hes not that good but he is electrifying and that is sexy to any owner. Great point though that seats that he fills may be void from loss of fan attendance.

[akhhorus]

Rodney harrison hasnt played a full season since 2004.

Thats a mischaracterization. He played 12 games in 2007. He missed a lot of 08 due to injury, but was very effective when he did play.

Welbourn retired, said he did it on his own terms, knee injury, multiple drug busts(performance enhancers), kyle turley signed and other factors. He then signed with the Patriots and was cut in 2008.

Anytime your last stop ended in a preseason cut, you don't retire on your own terms. Welbourn is better than most of the free agent olinemen(certainly was last season), but no one wants him because of the baggage.

Saurburn is a punter first of all

So what?


second, hes gotten plenty of chances(a hell of a lot more given the fact that he is just a punter, still the skins should have taken a look at him.JK)

Sauerbrun was cut after getting arrested again. Cause and effect.

Most of the guys you named are older than Vick and teams will certainly take that into account. (that punter was a great pull though) BUt honestly, i just couldnt name any, youve shown some to me. But you can certainly agree if you got talent you get alot of chances. To me, Pacman is the only one who compares to this situation from a youth, skilled, top of his game player who teams dont want and have had enough. I think we agree, we just have different criteria.

Matt Jones was one of the better WRs last year(certainly as a 2nd or 3rd banana) and no one will touch him because of his baggage. Is he young enough for you?

And the other problem with your theory is that the players who have come back, despite major off the field issues, are seen as potentially pro bowl level players(or are pro bowl level players). Vick has physical ability, but is a piss poor Qb. Chris Henry is a physical freak of a WR, PacMan was seen as a great returner. A pro bowl level returner. Vick's hawaiian adventures were a trave-sham-mockery.

Why not? He can plea to a lesser charge and get probation.

There are no lesser charges for him to plea to. The NYC law on concealed carry is the lowest possible charge. And the DA offered him a short jail sentence that would allow him to play this year(potentially). Plax passed on it. Once he's indicted, he will be going to jail in any plea deal.

As for Dante, actually I dont know, 2 yrs is a long time, but again, he isnot on the level of Vick.

He did kill a guy high on Pot. He'll be lucky to ever come back to the NFL.

Vick is an anomoly in the NFL, hes not that good but he is electrifying and that is sexy to any owner. Great point though that seats that he fills may be void from loss of fan attendance.

And yet, at least 18-20 teams have said publicly that they have zero interest in him. He's running out of destinations.

[smoak]

This would nmake ZERO sense. Vick was a good QB nor was he a fot for the WC???

EDIT:

Shoot me.

[hockeygoalie29]

He did kill a guy high on Pot. He'll be lucky to ever come back to the NFL.

Not that it matters much because he was drunk at the time, but I thought the test showed he had traces of marijuana in his system, not that he was high at the time. So he vary well could have smoked a week prior to that accident and still tested positive. So while it sounds bad that he tested positive, it wasn't a contributing factor to the accident (his being drunk however, was).

[Smiley]

Good news, Vinny said we will not sign this clown. Based on no team wanting him, he can go ahead and start his dog fighting again without repurcussion from the NFL. Funny how people categorize Vick as "making a mistake." I've made mistakes...that ain't no mistake. That's psychotic. Hail!

[akhhorus]

Not that it matters much because he was drunk at the time, but I thought the test showed he had traces of marijuana in his system, not that he was high at the time. So he vary well could have smoked a week prior to that accident and still tested positive. So while it sounds bad that he tested positive, it wasn't a contributing factor to the accident (his being drunk however, was).

My point was that since he tested positive for pot(regardless of when he took it), Goodell would be less inclined to re-instate him and teams would be less inclined to sign him.

[skin4ever]

[QUOTE]Thats a mischaracterization. He played 12 games in 2007. He missed a lot of 08 due to injury, but was very effective when he did play.


Anytime your last stop ended in a preseason cut, you don't retire on your own terms. Welbourn is better than most of the free agent olinemen(certainly was last season), but no one wants him because of the baggage.
From what i read, he retired and then favre-esque style came back, but he got cut.



So what? So what? So lets dance.LOL




Sauerbrun was cut after getting arrested again. Cause and effect.
Hes a 36 year old punter, he had way more issues than getting arrested only 2 times. And the last time was some sort of serious battery or something like that. No punter would chance after chance without being stellar at their position, which is why he got so many chances.



[QUOTE]Jones was one of the better WRs last year(certainly as a 2nd or 3rd banana) and no one will touch him because of his baggage. Is he young enough for you?
Except that he was their no. 1 WR last year and only had 65 catches, 761 yds and 2 tds. Thats not exactly going to give you a third chance on cocaine charges.

And the other problem with your theory is that the players who have come back, despite major off the field issues, are seen as potentially pro bowl level players(or are pro bowl level players). Vick has physical ability, but is a piss poor Qb. Chris Henry is a physical freak of a WR, PacMan was seen as a great returner. A pro bowl level returner. Vick's hawaiian adventures were a trave-sham-mockery.

What theory, you act as if mystatement was absolute, my original statement was "I cant think of players who did not get chance after chance if they had talent." And named Pacman and Chris Henry as examples.( Pacman backfired a little because now no one will give him a chance, but he got a lot of chances to get to this point.) You are acting as if i said no matter what if you have talent teams will give you shot after shot. Thats not it, if you have enough talent, and arent injured, old or injury prone, teams will give you shot after shot to an extent greater than if you didnt. Its kind of like chicks who like dating the bad ass guys, they think they will be the one who will make them into nice guys. Teams put up with TO because he has talent, otherwise he would be treated like Albert Connell. I think you are confused as to my assessment of Vick as a QB, hes not that good, but teams have to play him differently because of his mobility. I agree with you on Vicks actual talent as a QB, but prior to all of this, Vick was one of the, if not the most, electrifying player in the NFL.


There are no lesser charges for him to plea to. The NYC law on concealed carry is the lowest possible charge. And the DA offered him a short jail sentence that would allow him to play this year(potentially). Plax passed on it. Once he's indicted, he will be going to jail in any plea deal.


The concealed weapon charge carries a mandatory minimum of 3.5 yrs.(I believe so, but didnt check) There is no way around that. He could plea to reckless endangerment, or some other charge carrying unregistered ammunition or something else. I agree that his passing on the earlier plea certainly hurt his chances of avoiding any jail time, but we will have to see on this one. For me, his status as an NFL player is still up in the air, pending his legal disposition.


He did kill a guy high on Pot. He'll be lucky to ever come back to the NFL.
I thought it was drunk and as someone pointed out he had traces of Marijuana in his system. But nevertheless, his actions were not intended and certainly not as contrived as VIcks. If VIck got back in, Stallworth will. Didnt you argue the same in a previous vick thread, intent vs. onetime poor judgment?? Vick as you point out ran an illegal enterprise sponsored by NFL dollars which included gambling and the torturing and training of animals. Stallworth was unlucky and killed a guy while driving home drunk(.12 or so, if i recall correctly, not that drunk)


And yet, at least 18-20 teams have said publicly that they have zero interest in him. He's running out of destinations.

I agree. His actual talent may not be enough to overcome the outcry of public scorn and the public relations war that might be waged against the team that would sign him.

After seeing the names of guys like Pacman(now) and Saurbrun, and maybe soon to be Vick, the NFLwill give guys with talent chance after chance, until the headache or cost of the signing outweighs the dollar signs. LMAO. I wonder if the NFL was a private organization, and no public scrutiny if VIck would be resigned already. HMM, but its not, so the public perception and effect certainly is a factor.

[akhhorus]

From what i read, he retired and then favre-esque style came back, but he got cut.


What do you expect from roid heads?

Hes a 36 year old punter, he had way more issues than getting arrested only 2 times. And the last time was some sort of serious battery or something like that. No punter would chance after chance without being stellar at their position, which is why he got so many chances.

He's a 36 year old punter who's last year in the NFL would have made him the 7th best punter in the NFL last year. If talent gets you chances after chances after chances, someone would have brought him in.

Except that he was their no. 1 WR last year and only had 65 catches, 761 yds and 2 tds. Thats not exactly going to give you a third chance on cocaine charges.


He was productive, regardless of where he was in the pecking order. If talent gets you chance after chance after chance, someone should have brought him in for a try out at least. No one has. Which is my point.

What theory, you act as if mystatement was absolute, as if i said no matter what if you have talent teams will give you shot after shot. Thats not it, if you have enough talent, and arent injured, old or injury prone, teams will give you shot after shot to an extent greater than if you didnt.

Except I've shown players who are talented and aren't old & worn down who can't get a tryout.

How about this, The more talent you have, the more chances you are given. Is that better for you? Its kind of like chicks who like dating the bad ass guys, they think they will be the one who will make them into nice guys. Teams put up with TO because he has talent, otherwise he would be treated like Albert Connell.

You keep pulling out examples which do nothing to help your theories. Teams put up with TO? 3 franchises have dumped TO and he got very little interest on the open market this past offseason. If talent gets you chances(or whatever your latest theory is now), 30 teams should have been after TO. Only 1 really was. That says a lot about how many chances talent gets you.

I think you are confused as to my assessment of Vick as a QB, hes not that good, but teams have to play him differently because of his mobility. I agree with you on Vicks actual talent as a QB, but prior to all of this, Vick was one of the, if not the most, electrifying player in the NFL.


Not really, no. He was product of hype, nothing more. For all his "electricity" on the football field, he really didn't provide many of those plays.

And if talent gets you more chances, how come more than half the league has no interest in Vick even before seeing him work out? That alone undermines your theories.

The concealed weapon charge carries a mandatory minimum of 3.5 yrs. There is no way around that. He could plea to reckless endangerment, or some other charge carrying unregistered ammunition or something else. I agree that his passing on the earlier plea certainly hurt his chances of avoiding any jail time, but we will have to see on this one. For me, his status as an NFL player is still up in the air, pending his legal disposition.

I thought it was drunk and as someone pointed out he had traces of Marijuana in his system. But nevertheless, his actions were not intended and certainly not as contrived as VIcks. If VIck got back in, Stallworth will. Didnt you argue the same in a previous vick thread, intent vs. onetime poor judgment?? Vick as you point out ran an illegal enterprise sponsored by NFL dollars which included gambling and the torturing and training of animals. Stallworth was unlucky and killed a guy while driving home drunk(.12 or so, if i recall correctly, not that drunk)


Please read what I actually wrote: I said that Vick should forfeit his chance to play in the NFL because of his involvement in a long term criminal conspiracy, and that factor(along with gambling) means Goodell shouldn't let him in. I said that Goodell probably will ban him for his career effectively. I was predicting, not supporting.

[shally]

each day it becomes a little less likely..

i am guessing under 10 % now

1 day !!! on to camp !!!!

[skin4ever]

Akh. just lost my reply to your last post. So here it is in a nutshell.

My statement(in a nutshell) The more talented a NFL player you are, the more chances you will get. Obviously, there is a point where enough is enough. Until we began this, i couldnt think of a NFL player who was talented and hes not wanted anymore. Still only 2 i can think of that you or i named: Pacmand and Suarbrun. All ofthe players you named were given chances to come back and play in the nfl. Some got more rope than others, Matt Jones v. Henry, Pacman, Saurbrun. Well they are more talented than Matt Jones(sorry but 761 yds and 2 tds is NOT productive for a number 1 WR)

Suarbrun for a punter got sooooo many chances(multiple suspensions for performance enhancers and such)and the fact that hes been arrested 3 times in the last 2 years may have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Matt Jones not a productive guy still got chance after chance after his drug bust and his last arrrest was enough. So far, we willl see.

TO- i brought himup as an example of a guy who gets chance after chance for being a headache inthe lockerrooom. Yes he was cut three times, but he was also signed 4 times(but the 49ers get a pass cause they didnt knowwhat they were getting into). Albert Connell a nother lockerroom headache, minimal talent, no chances. See the theme there.

Rodney Harrison Cant finish a season, Welbourne only played 2 full seasons, he got multiple chances before he retired, then unretired and got cut. But they got multiple chances. Marvin Harrison is a shadow of himself given his injuries and on top of that, you are right, hes got that shooting thing in Philly.

With Vick, this circumstance is unprecedented in theNFL. and you yourself say that he is not that talented of a QB. I agree. The teams are weighing the benefit(or burden) of signing Vick against the probability of fan outcry, public relations fiasco, sales losses and national scorn.(Basically NFL versionof Learned Hand's Formula) This may be the firsttime in NFL history that a player who has been to the probowl, a talented player, did not get a second chance. Thats a testiment to how grave the crimes he committed. I mean, guys have come back from drugs, manslaughter pleas and been accepted.

Do you believe that If the NFL was just as it was today, but for some strange reason the public did not know about it, that Vick wouldnt already be signed to the highest bidder? I think he would, and that the teams' fear of public response is whats keeping them from signing him.

[Skins3]

I think we should go after VICK and Burress.

Has VICK gotten another chance somewhere I only remember him in a V-Tech and Atlanta uniform??

[akhhorus]

Akh. just lost my reply to your last post. So here it is in a nutshell.

My statement(in a nutshell) The more talented a NFL player you are, the more chances you will get. Obviously, there is a point where enough is enough. Until we began this, i couldnt think of a NFL player who was talented and hes not wanted anymore. Still only 2 i can think of that you or i named: Pacmand and Suarbrun. All ofthe players you named were given chances to come back and play in the nfl. Some got more rope than others, Matt Jones v. Henry, Pacman, Saurbrun. Well they are more talented than Matt Jones(sorry but 761 yds and 2 tds is NOT productive for a number 1 WR)


Not really, no. Harrison was looking for a team this offseason and retired when no one would try him out. Welbourn's been blackballed also. You still haven't really responded to my example of Matt Jones. He played 12 games and significantly out produced some other starting WRs last year. You can't say with a straight face that teams are passing on him because he can't play.

Suarbrun for a punter got sooooo many chances(multiple suspensions for performance enhancers and such)and the fact that hes been arrested 3 times in the last 2 years may have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Thats exactly my point: teams are passing on him because of his arrest, not because he can't play. He's shown that he can still play.

Matt Jones not a productive guy still got chance after chance after his drug bust and his last arrrest was enough. So far, we willl see.

See above(not the Sauerbrun comment).

TO- i brought himup as an example of a guy who gets chance after chance for being a headache inthe lockerrooom. Yes he was cut three times, but he was also signed 4 times(but the 49ers get a pass cause they didnt knowwhat they were getting into). Albert Connell a nother lockerroom headache, minimal talent, no chances. See the theme there.

Connell had over 700 yards in his final full season. He still was productive. He got bounced and barred from the league because of his theivery. If talent gets you opportunities, then TO proves my point: The last 2 times he's been free, there has been FAR less interest in a player who is clearly talented.

Rodney Harrison Cant finish a season,

Well, wrong. He was suspended for 4 games in 07 and played the rest. And looked great in his limited play in 08. He can still play.

Welbourne only played 2 full seasons, he got multiple chances before he retired, then unretired and got cut. But they got multiple chances. Marvin Harrison is a shadow of himself given his injuries and on top of that, you are right, hes got that shooting thing in Philly.


Harrison was still an effective WR despite his age last year(and being dropped to the 3rd WR spot essentially). You can't say with a straight face that teams are passing on him because he's finished. He's not the same player he was, but he's still a good WR. Certainly better than any number of backup WRs fighting for jobs this month.

With Vick, this circumstance is unprecedented in theNFL. and you yourself say that he is not that talented of a QB. I agree. The teams are weighing the benefit(or burden) of signing Vick against the probability of fan outcry, public relations fiasco, sales losses and national scorn.(Basically NFL versionof Learned Hand's Formula) This may be the firsttime in NFL history that a player who has been to the probowl, a talented player, did not get a second chance. Thats a testiment to how grave the crimes he committed. I mean, guys have come back from drugs, manslaughter pleas and been accepted.


Different league that let those guys like Leonard Little back in. If you're right, then PacMan should be fighting for a job right now. Matt Jones should be competing for a WR starting spot. They aren't. Which was my point. And if no one wants Vick, then my point is completely validated and your various theories aren't. You can't say that talent gets you chances, except when you pull enough crap that the league doesn't want you anymore. Thats arguing both sides of a debate.

Do you believe that If the NFL was just as it was today, but for some strange reason the public did not know about it, that Vick wouldnt already be signed to the highest bidder? I think he would, and that the teams' fear of public response is whats keeping them from signing him.

What are you talking about? You're trying to claim that in the NFL, talent gets any headcase or criminal chances to play since teams will forgive if you can still play. But you're trying to hedge your argument that there's a line that if a player crosses, teams won't be interested in them since its not worth the trouble. Please pick one side and stay on it: either talent gets you chances in the NFL or it doesn't. The empirical evidence suggests that I'm right.

[skin4ever]

Not really, no. Harrison was looking for a team this offseason and retired when no one would try him out. Welbourn's been blackballed also. You still haven't really responded to my example of Matt Jones. He played 12 games and significantly out produced some other starting WRs last year. You can't say with a straight face that teams are passing on him because he can't play.



Thats exactly my point: teams are passing on him because of his arrest, not because he can't play. He's shown that he can still play.



See above(not the Sauerbrun comment).



Connell had over 700 yards in his final full season. He still was productive. He got bounced and barred from the league because of his theivery. If talent gets you opportunities, then TO proves my point: The last 2 times he's been free, there has been FAR less interest in a player who is clearly talented.



Well, wrong. He was suspended for 4 games in 07 and played the rest. And looked great in his limited play in 08. He can still play.



Harrison was still an effective WR despite his age last year(and being dropped to the 3rd WR spot essentially). You can't say with a straight face that teams are passing on him because he's finished. He's not the same player he was, but he's still a good WR. Certainly better than any number of backup WRs fighting for jobs this month.



Different league that let those guys like Leonard Little back in. If you're right, then PacMan should be fighting for a job right now. Matt Jones should be competing for a WR starting spot. They aren't. Which was my point. And if no one wants Vick, then my point is completely validated and your various theories aren't. You can't say that talent gets you chances, except when you pull enough crap that the league doesn't want you anymore. Thats arguing both sides of a debate.



What are you talking about? You're trying to claim that in the NFL, talent gets any headcase or criminal chances to play since teams will forgive if you can still play. But you're trying to hedge your argument that there's a line that if a player crosses, teams won't be interested in them since its not worth the trouble. Please pick one side and stay on it: either talent gets you chances in the NFL or it doesn't. The empirical evidence suggests that I'm right.

Classic Akh. Its clear you have your feet dug into the sand and no real way to continue this discussion. You seem to refuse that most if not all of the players youve named got multiple chances, and as it turns out, the better the player the more chances they got. From Harrison to Welbourne, Henry to Pacman, Matt Jones to TO, and even Albert Connell. Vick seems(may be) to be the exception to the rule. I admit that. Its not arguing one side over the other, its discussing how the NFL works with regard to players.

What empirical evidence? Harrison cant finish a season, you say he played great for the 6 games he played in last season. Matt Jones got chances(cocaine charges no less) eventhough hes not that talented, You say that hes productive(number 1 WR, 761 yds, 2tds is not productive). Marvin Harrison is a shadow of what he was, you say: he was productive considering he was dropped to 3rd WR on the Colts and wont consider his injury and loss of what made him great as a factor in why teams wont call. Suarbrun i even give you as a good example, but he is a punter who got multiple chances(been suspended for performance enhancers and then arrested 3 times in past two years), You seem to ignore that. Welbourne too has had multiple chances. Albert Connell did not have the same talent as probably even Matt Jones, and was not given another real chance. He went to the Saints but he fell out quickly.

What do some of the others here think? I really didnt think this would be "you're wrong, Im right" discussion when I made the statement. I thought it was common knowledge.

[akhhorus]

Classic Akh. Its clear you have your feet dug into the sand and no real way to continue this discussion.

You're trying to have things multiple ways and not really discussing the issues, so you can keep your accusations to yourself while you just try to filibuster.

You seem to refuse that most if not all of the players youve named got multiple chances, and as it turns out, the better the player the more chances they got. From Harrison to Welbourne, Henry to Pacman, Matt Jones to TO, and even Albert Connell. Vick seems(may be) to be the exception to the rule. I admit that. Its not arguing one side over the other, its discussing how the NFL works with regard to players.


There are no exceptions to any rules. If there's an exception, then it isn't a rule.

Harrison: you claim that "he can't finish a season" and hasnt since 2004. And thats why no one was interested to you. I point out that he played very well when he did play in 2008 and was suspended for 4 games in 2007(and played the rest). You don't have a response to that yet.

Welbourn: You have a better case with him, but he played very well in 2007 only to see no one seriously interested in him in the 08 offseason(he got a cup of coffee with the Pats). You want to claim it was age/injuries, but the 07 season undermines that claim.

Henry and PacMan: PacMan undermines your case. Henry is a headcase and a criminal, but he is on his last chance.

Matt Jones: please explain why a guy who had more receiving yards last year than Donnie Avery, Anthony Gonzalez, Antonio Gates, Justin Gage(who got a decent sized extension), Nate Washington(who got a decent sized contract) and Chad Johnson can't even get a camp tryout. Hint: its not because of his talent/production.

TO: Yes, he was eventually signed, but your claim is that talent gets you chances. TO is one of the most talented WRs in the game, but almost no one wants him whenever he's available.

Connell: He had 700+ yards in his final full season, in the next season he committed robbery and got blackballed. Which proves my point.

What empirical evidence? Harrison cant finish a season, you say he played great for the 6 games he played in last season. Matt Jones got chances(cocaine charges no less) eventhough hes not that talented, You say that hes productive(number 1 WR, 761 yds, 2tds is not productive).

See above.

Marvin Harrison is a shadow of what he was, you say: he was productive considering he was dropped to 3rd WR on the Colts and wont consider his injury and loss of what made him great as a factor in why teams wont call.

Marvin Harrison still had 60 catches last year. He's still an effective player(but not the same as he was). No one will even try him out. And you want to claim its because of his play. The evidence doesn't support that.

Suarbrun i even give you as a good example, but he is a punter who got multiple chances(been suspended for performance enhancers and then arrested 3 times in past two years), You seem to ignore that.

I brought up that he had a lot of off the field incidents. Thats why I included him. Accusing me of ignoring his problems is absurd since thats exactly why I discussed him. This is more filibustering.

Welbourne too has had multiple chances. Albert Connell did not have the same talent as probably even Matt Jones, and was not given another real chance. He went to the Saints but he fell out quickly.

I've explained all three. You can issue subjective rulings on their talent all you want, but thats not the issue.

What do some of the others here think? I really didnt think this would be "you're wrong, Im right" discussion when I made the statement. I thought it was common knowledge.

I agree that to some extent talent will get a player a 2nd chance, but my point(which you either didn't understand or are ignoring just to argue) was that there is a line in the sand where players are effectively blackballed by the league. Harrison, Sauerbrun, Jones, Welbourn, PacMan and Connell(among others) are all examples of productive players who reached this threshold. You're trying to claim that they got multiple chances, but ultimately were cast aside because they stopped playing well. There is little to no evidence to support your theory.

If you want to continue this, PM me. I'm not going to respond to you in this thread anymore.

[skin4ever]

I agree that to some extent talent will get a player a 2nd chance, but my point(which you either didn't understand or are ignoring just to argue) was that there is a line in the sand where players are effectively blackballed by the league. Harrison, Sauerbrun, Jones, Welbourn, PacMan and Connell(among others) are all examples of productive players who reached this threshold. You're trying to claim that they got multiple chances, but ultimately were cast aside because they stopped playing well. There is little to no evidence to support your theory.

If you want to continue this, PM me. I'm not going to respond to you in this thread anymore.

Agreed. LMAO. I think we've both been saying that for some time. Just differently.

[mr shadow 008]

redskins will not pursue vick, http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9868078/Zorn:-Redskins-won't-sign-Vick-'at-this-juncture'

[shally]

redskins will not pursue vick, http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9868078/Zorn:-Redskins-won't-sign-Vick-'at-this-juncture'

good choice, Vinny...

[DannySnyder]

I have decided not to sign him

[shally]

I have decided not to sign him

one of your wiser decisions, Sir.. now, can we talk about Vinny ?

[smoak]

Good news, Vinny said we will not sign this clown. Based on no team wanting him, he can go ahead and start his dog fighting again without repurcussion from the NFL. Funny how people categorize Vick as "making a mistake." I've made mistakes...that ain't no mistake. That's psychotic. Hail!

Exactly. I doubt anyone touches Vick.

[smoak]

I have decided not to sign him

Great, now sell the team go away forever. Its the nicest way I can say it.

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

I hear the rams and ravens talking to him

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

I hear the rams and ravens talking to him

i bet he ends up in minnesota.since favre turned them down,jackson got hurt,i'd be shocked if they did'nt!

[shally]

i bet he ends up in minnesota.since favre turned them down,jackson got hurt,i'd be shocked if they did'nt!

childress is such a horses azz, i wouldnt be surprised about anything he does..