Abortion

[PennSkinsFan]

Please Vote

[Spence]

I'm pro-choice. I cannot think of anyone less suited to make a good decision about such a personal decision than the government. Here are the actors:

1. The pregnant female;
2. The impregnating male;
3. The doctor;
4. The government bureaucrat thousands of miles away who has never met the woman, the man, or the doctor.

Which one of these is most likely to make an informed and intelligent decision on the subject?

[PennSkinsFan]

I am and will always be Pro Life

[jsarno]

I voted "no opinion".
Here's why...it does not seem there will be any middle ground on this issue, it's either allowed or not allowed. If it's not allowed, what do you say to the 14 year oldthat was raped, or insestually seminated? What do you say to the mother that alraedy has 4 kids and this is putting her life at risk?
I would say it's pro choice, but people too freely decide to end lives because of stupid decisions. Since people will not take responsibility I prefer to say no to abortion.
So as you can see I am 100% in the middle. I think under certain circumstances it should be allowed, but not allowed under others. Since those kind of governing rules WOULD NEVER happen, I choose to say no opinion.
As a Christian, I can say that I do not think that abortion is killing. We don't even count our days of life til AFTER birth. Since that fetus can not live on it's own outside of the womb, why do we feel it is alive? It is nt a living thing, but more of a parasite living off the woman. (I could think of no better word than parasite, but this does not mean I think a fetus is a parasite, merely making a point).

[jporterweb]

There are options besides Abortion. Like Adoption, like Birth Control. I think once there is a heartbeat, it's a baby. And is alive.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by Spence
I'm pro-choice. I cannot think of anyone less suited to make a good decision about such a personal decision than the government. Here are the actors:

1. The pregnant female;
2. The impregnating male;
3. The doctor;
4. The government bureaucrat thousands of miles away who has never met the woman, the man, or the doctor.

Which one of these is most likely to make an informed and intelligent decision on the subject?

Yea, but on thing I have a problem with also is that the Male has no say.

[BigCountry]

Well a baby daddy that will just worm his way outta child support and not be there half the time doesn't deserve a say and ultimately the woman should have the final say. If it's a couple who know they're gonna stay together then if the mother wants to consult, the male should have a say.

[Spence]

Originally posted by jporterweb
Yea, but on thing I have a problem with also is that the Male has no say. I think perhaps there out to be some sort of requirement for the female to inform the male of her intentions, unless there is some evidence that he would be a threat to her if he had the information. That's one thing. But taking the decision away from the man, the woman, and the doctor and giving it to some person thousands of miles away who has never met anyone involved and does not know any of the circumstances seems pretty absurd to me.

Let me note that being pro-choice does not make one pro-abortion. I'd never counsel anyone to get an abortion [unless the woman would die without one]. However, I just don't think that I or anyone else has the right to make that decision for another person. I don't want that sort of power and I don't deserve that sort of power. None of us do.

[bfauble83]

Pro life 100%

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Spence
However, I just don't think that I or anyone else has the right to make that decision for another person. I don't want that sort of power and I don't deserve that sort of power. None of us do.

I think we can all pretty much agree on that.

jporterweb, are you suggesting that a raped teenager or a pregnant teenager that was raped by a family member, be forced to carry the baby to term just to give it away in adoption?
To me in that scenario there is only ONE option, and that's abortion. IMO.

[AGibbsGirl]

Every woman I have ever known who has had an abortion, did so as a form of birth control....I'm Pro-Life

jsarno, from one Christian to another...I think you had better get in the Word my friend. Read Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139:13.

Also when your wife is in her last tri-mester, come talk to us again about your "parasite", I'd be curious to see if your thoughts have changed.

PS: A year ago...
A handsome, sweet, stranger walked into my life...
He was my full-blooded baby brother that my Mother gave up for adoption 35 years earlier. He is a joy to my brother, sister and I even if he does like the Ravens ~grin~

Also, my darling Hubbo...adopted at birth

I thank God every day that these two women did not have abortions

[rskinsfan10]

Pro choice for me.

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by jsarno
I think we can all pretty much agree on that.

jporterweb, are you suggesting that a raped teenager or a pregnant teenager that was raped by a family member, be forced to carry the baby to term just to give it away in adoption?
To me in that scenario there is only ONE option, and that's abortion. IMO.


The problem is jsarno...these cases are very rare. Here's the majority reason for abortion.


"Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.)"

Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%

[Spence]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
"Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.)"

Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1% Sounds like a good case for better access to other forms of birth control to me.

[Skins57]

Originally posted by Spence
Sounds like a good case for better access to other forms of birth control to me.

I agree.

I am pro choice

[Skinzaholic]

I am Pro-Life for obvious reasons.


AGG - Thank you for pointing out Jsarno's obvious lack of scriptural knowledge... saving me the time to type it.


Jsarno - I have listened to you make several points under the label of "Christian" which are not in agreement with "Christianity" at all. Please review your facts before sticking on the label my friend...

[Spence]

I have no particular opinion about JSARNO's beliefs, but I know plenty of religious Christians [including clerics] who are pro-choice. I'm one of them. But only one.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by Spence
I have no particular opinion about JSARNO's beliefs, but I know plenty of religious Christians [including clerics] who are pro-choice. I'm one of them. But only one.


Unfortunately... I know some as well.

[BigCountry]

That's not a decision you can make for someone because of your own religious beliefs. If I'm a 16 year old girl who made a human mistake and got pregnant, I'm not really gonna care about your religious beliefs when I make a life altering decision. I was the only one this girl told and I convinced her to get an abortion very early. I don't know what it says in the bible and to tell you the truth I don't really care cause this girl saved her life. Not everyone has to make a law out of every little word the bible says. If this girl would have had the baby, the bible wouldn't have done much to help her unless she could have sold it for a large amount of money.

[Seebs]

Pro choice!

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally posted by Spence
I have no particular opinion about JSARNO's beliefs, but I know plenty of religious Christians [including clerics] who are pro-choice. I'm one of them. But only one.

WOW! I thought you were an Attorney and now to find out you are a Cleric! :D

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by BigCountry
That's not a decision you can make for someone because of your own religious beliefs. If I'm a 16 year old girl who made a human mistake and got pregnant, I'm not really gonna care about your religious beliefs when I make a life altering decision. I was the only one this girl told and I convinced her to get an abortion very early. I don't know what it says in the bible and to tell you the truth I don't really care cause this girl saved her life. Not everyone has to make a law out of every little word the bible says. If this girl would have had the baby, the bible wouldn't have done much to help her unless she could have sold it for a large amount of money.


For those of us who profess, and take the Bible as the Word of God, we must answer as we believe to be God's truth in this matter.

I think that there are different levels of Christian faith. Many profess they believe in God or Jesus, yet do not read his word or believe it to be relevant in this day and age. But for those of us who do, we must be entitled to our opinions.

PS: Birth Control starts before conception! and abstinence is still a choice.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
Every woman I have ever known who has had an abortion, did so as a form of birth control....I'm Pro-Life

I COMPLETELY disagree with that form, unless it is life threatening.

jsarno, from one Christian to another...I think you had better get in the Word my friend. Read Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139:13.

Since you brought them up (common arguments from us Christians against abortion) I will breakthem down.
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
First he says BEFORE I created you in the womb...meaning he was a being before he was even conceived which could constitute masterbation as murder. This only can have a conclusion that there is an afterlife since he can know someone "prelife". He goes on to say before you were born, I set you apart (consecrated) from others. It says NOTHING specific about abortion, nor does it say anything about the fetus being alive, just that he was known before the birth and beforethe conception. If we were to take that literally, it's a crazy statement. He's naming A FETUS prophet to the nations? It's just making a point that he knew him from before day one, and knows all about him. Not anything about abortion.
Psalms 139:13,
For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb.
And you forgot verse 16 that is common arguement as well:
Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Anyway...those verses in that chapter are basically a prayer to God. This person is saying that God knew him in the womb, and knew his destiny. It's not saying anything devine, nor is it saying anything about a baby being alive. Just that the God knew it. It has DNA so of course it will become someone eventually. I used to actually feel the same way you did, it was killing and that is that. But after I researched it thoroughly in the bible, there is nothing concrete at all, nothing even close really other than amazingly indirect comments that could be considered.

Also when your wife is in her last tri-mester, come talk to us again about your "parasite", I'd be curious to see if your thoughts have changed.

Please don't misunderstand me. First off, last trimester is illegal for abortion even in today's society, and that is murder. Because with a little help, that baby can live on it's own outside the womb. I already feel an amazing connection and would not in anyway shape or form even remotely think about terminating the pregnancy. If my wife did by herself, (she wouldn't, but hypotheticaly) I'd divorce her.
Definition of a parasite is something that lives off the life of another and can't live with out that life. By that crude definition, a FETUS does fall under that catagory. Do I think a fetus is a parasite? NO. I already explained this.

PS: A year ago...
A handsome, sweet, stranger walked into my life...
He was my full-blooded baby brother that my Mother gave up for adoption 35 years earlier. He is a joy to my brother, sister and I even if he does like the Ravens ~grin~

Also, my darling Hubbo...adopted at birth

I thank God every day that these two women did not have abortions

As you should. But what you don't know won't hurt you. There have been literally millions of abortions in this world, what if NONE of them actually happened? Who knows if someone actually aborted the next Hitler? No one knows. I know some serious assholes that were adopted, as I know some VERY nice people that were adopted. If you only point out the positive, youdont see the whole picture.
Let me be clear when I say I don't agree with abortion because it's the easy way out for some that made ignorant choices. But I don't agree it should be 100% illegal for circumstances I already explained.
I just don't beleive it is alive until it's born. Therefore not killing. No bible verse will prove this. I've already looked,this is why my mind was changed.

[jsarno]

sometimes you just have to remember that bad is just as much in this world, even more so than good.

Interesting hypothetical headlines:
John Smith of (your local town) killed a family today. Lorri and her husband of many years were killed and the poor children are now left to fend for themselves. John SMith had too much to drink at the local bar after an argument with his girlfriend. No one stopped him from driving drunk, and he SLAMMED into Lorri's car on main street killing them instantly.

This never happened because John Smith was aborted in the womb.
Don't forget that it goes both ways. If God is in charge, who's to say he didn't encourage the abortion? He knows ALL right? And he knows better than US right? So who are we to question it? Those aborted fetus could have been some serious scum. Only God knows. But if you're going to point out the positive from not aborting...the negative needs to be heard.
I think we would all agree that Osama Bin Laden's mother should have aborted.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
The problem is jsarno...these cases are very rare. Here's the majority reason for abortion.


"Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.)"

Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%

That's not the point Lorri. The point is, if you make it illegal, those teenagers raped CAN'T get an abortion. You just took that decision out of thier hand.
Or how about the mother that the baby is threatening her life? Should she not get a choice? That DOES happen often since I have known 4 women in the past 7 years that was the case for. 1 of them actually didn't consider abortion and died and left 3 kids motherless.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
Jsarno - I have listened to you make several points under the label of "Christian" which are not in agreement with "Christianity" at all. Please review your facts before sticking on the label my friend...

Problem is, I have...while others have not on this issue. I wrestled with this for a long time at one point and came to this conclusion, and no one has come up with proof not to. Just a human feeling.
Tell you what...you show me biblically where it is wrong, and I will change my mind. I am human, maybe I missed something that you have seen. This is not like homosexuality where it is 100% clear in the bible. This is about as gray an issue as they come in biblical terms.
I'm by no means an expert true and true on the bible, but I know it better than 95% of the world sicne I have been studying it on my own since 91, and having it read to me or read it in church since I was born.
There are many common christian beliefs that are not biblical. This is a good one to say "It's wrong" on because it's better safe than sorry by christian thoughts.
Here is definition of alive:
a·live ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lv)
adj.
Having life; living. See Synonyms at living.
In existence or operation; active: keep your hopes alive.
Full of living or moving things; abounding: a pool alive with trout.
Full of activity or animation; lively: a face alive with mischief.

A fetus does not fall into this.
Personally for me, abortion is wrong. But I'm not going to tell someone else it is wrong, nor should the government. If you think by biblical interpretations are incorrect, then prove me wrong biblically. That is my guidebook for life.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl


PS: Birth Control starts before conception! and abstinence is still a choice.

AMEN!

[jsarno]

Last response...sorry, I've had a lot to say on this issue.

Don't you think if God really thought abortion was killing he would have came out and said so? He never once insunuates that a fetus is a living thing, so why have we (as christians) decided to put it in there for him?
God knew what he was doing when he made the bible. As much as we want to see things that aren't there for GOOD (and believe me, I know you guys are saying this for GOOD reasoning) it is not clear at all. In fact if anything it is completely silent on this subject. Leaving us to decide if it's right or wrong by human standards such as definition of alive etc. By those conclusions it is not illegal. In this case the verse "follow the laws of the land" apply more than anything. The laws aren't always correct, and the bible will tell us which ones aren't. But this is not one of them.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by jsarno
Last response...sorry, I've had a lot to say on this issue.

Don't you think if God really thought abortion was killing he would have came out and said so.

Somehow I doubt they had abortion back then my friend. So God had no reason to put anything in the bible about this. It woulda confused the hell outta them. Now answer me this.

Hypothtical News Story
John Doe was arrested today and charged with 2 counts of first degree muder. John doe killed his wife Jane today who was 6 months pregenant with their child. John is being charged with the murder of his wife and unborn child.

Now why is that murder, but Abortion not?

[BigCountry]

Because abortion is under the consent of the woman and it is done because she is not ready to have a baby. Are you gonna condem a 17 year old girl that made a mistake because YOU think it's religiously imoral? Please tell me you think there's a differance between a guy murdering a pregnant woman and abortion because that notion is rediculous.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by BigCountry
Because abortion is under the consent of the woman and it is done because she is not ready to have a baby. Are you gonna condem a 17 year old girl that made a mistake because YOU think it's religiously imoral? Please tell me you think there's a differance between a guy murdering a pregnant woman and abortion because that notion is rediculous.

No it's not. If the child can be considered murdered by the man murdering the woman, then the doctor performing the abortion is a murderer. He is killing this child. Don't tell me that notion is ridiculous, because it is still ending a life. I don't hide behind religion and say it's immoral, but it's not right under standard law. Killing a living being is murder. I'm sorry but if I'm in a bed on life support, and my heart is still beating even though I'm not breathing on my own. And someone comes in and pulls the plug puposly, that's murder. The same goes for a baby who has a heartbeat even though the baby is not breathing or anything on its own. It has nothing to do with religion, and I never EVER said it did. So please don't put words in my mouth. I was just explaining to JSARNO why such wouldn't have been in the bible. Clearly seperated the two issues.

One more thing. If the woman is not ready for whatever reason, fine. However, there are OTHER OPTIONS.

[Spence]

Originally posted by jporterweb
Somehow I doubt they had abortion back then my friend. So God had no reason to put anything in the bible about this. It woulda confused the hell outta them. Just pointing out that abortion did exist in Biblical times and would have been well-known to almost anyone. The surgical procedure as we now know it, did not exist, but the ancients were well aware of various means of artificially terminating a pregnancy.

I'm not suggesting that the Bible's silence on this issue settles anything one way or another. I'm merely writing that abortion was common knowledge among peoples long before Jesus was born.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by jsarno
Since you brought them up (common arguments from us Christians against abortion) I will breakthem down.
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
First he says BEFORE I created you in the womb...meaning he was a being before he was even conceived which could constitute masterbation as murder. This only can have a conclusion that there is an afterlife since he can know someone "prelife". He goes on to say before you were born, I set you apart (consecrated) from others. It says NOTHING specific about abortion, nor does it say anything about the fetus being alive, just that he was known before the birth and beforethe conception. If we were to take that literally, it's a crazy statement. He's naming A FETUS prophet to the nations? It's just making a point that he knew him from before day one, and knows all about him. Not anything about abortion.
Psalms 139:13,
For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb.
And you forgot verse 16 that is common arguement as well:
Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Anyway...those verses in that chapter are basically a prayer to God. This person is saying that God knew him in the womb, and knew his destiny. It's not saying anything devine, nor is it saying anything about a baby being alive. Just that the God knew it. It has DNA so of course it will become someone eventually. I used to actually feel the same way you did, it was killing and that is that. But after I researched it thoroughly in the bible, there is nothing concrete at all, nothing even close really other than amazingly indirect comments that could be considered.





JSARNO - Your personal interpretation of the Bible text is extremely short-sighted and disturbing.

Let's really break down this verse you mentioned above...

Jeremiah 1:5

"Before" - Heb. "terem" - to interrupt, suspend, something not yet occurring[/U]

"I formed" - [I]Heb. "yatsar" - molded as a potter with clay

"in the belly I knew thee" - Heb. "yada" - to be aware, to recognize"

"and before thou came forth" - Heb. "yatsa" - to break out

(verse continued) "out of the womb I sanctified (set apart, appointed) thee and ordained (gave) thee a prophet unto the nations".


************

First - Your misinterpretation of this verse in regards to masturbation is crazy. Scientists have long ago discovered that human life requires male/female consecration. Therefore, your masturbation defense is a feeble attempt at warping the text to fit your personal point of view.

Second - You are missing the entire point of this verse... which is actually God providing encouragement to Jeremiah due to his need for strength prior to the difficulties he would soon face due to the unpopularity of his message. (John Wesley's Notes on Old New Testament).

The point of this verse was NOT to dictate whether or not destroying a fetus was murder... but rather to state that the fetus was considered "alive" by God and that God recognized and was aware o that life prior to actual birth (even aware enough to set that life apart for future deeds).


Several other verses support this statement in full...

- Psalm 71:5-6 - (a verbal picture of God "holding up" an infant yet without legs to stand until it is able to stand alone).

- Psalm 22:9-10

- Isaiah 49:1,5

Gal 1:15-16 - (Paul's parallel statement that he (like Jeremiah) also had this calling... )



Several Bible Commentaries also support this position...

1. "This scripture uses this manner of speech to declare that God has appointed his ministers to their offices before they were born" - 1599 Geneva Bible Notes

2. "Obviously, 'Before I formed thee' imlies that God had destined Jeremiah to be a prophet before he was born. He had formed a plan and appointed thee to be His envoy to His people." - Adam Clarke's Commentary


************

It is easily understood by the above references that God considers a fetus in the womb as life. But... here is another point...

The main concern of the "Pro-Choicers" is not the guarded protection of the life in the womb. Instead, the main concern is the "rights" of the mother over and against the rights of the child growing in her. The child, who cannot exercise its own will, is killed. And, in order to make the killing more palatable, the baby is called a "fetus", or "non-viable", or "not yet human", etc. This eases the conscience. But, for those who say the baby isn't 'viable', have you ever seen a sonogram of an abortion? You can see the 'non-viable fetus' retracting from the instruments of death and seeking self preservation. It wants to live. Some would respond by saying that even a rodent wants to live. But what is in the womb of the mother is human.


(This goes in line with your definition of life.)


***************

Now... does God indeed call killing a fetus "murder"? Yes.

Exodus 21:22 - "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, s that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.


With no harm to the mother, one would assume that the man would not be held responsible...yet God sees it as different and upholds the rights of the unborn child as well.


*************

You can also check out a very logical, rational, non religious argumen against abortion here.... http://www.carm.org/questions/abortion.htm



**************

My argument with you was NOT addressing the ageless issue of fetus rights... but rather to point out your lack of knowledge and dogmatic opinion without facts or correct information. As in all debates... proper research is imperative (as stated by Spence).

Big Country has an opinion which varies 180 degrees from mine... and yet I respect his position because he states it with clarity and thought. Although I disagree with his analysis of human life and total disregard for Biblical authority (thus God's authority), I have an even greater problem with people who have extremely limited Biblical knowledge grabbing half-truths and using them to further distort the general misunderstanding of God's heart. This is a soap box of mine.

I mean no disrepsect to you... nor want you to feel attacked or insulted... instead I would hope that you would search God's Word with an open heart and not approach it with your opinion already set... then try to bend the verses to fit that opinion. (That is called iseggesis).

[Skinzaholic]

Abortion Facts

11 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION

HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS)
BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS
THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST
THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK
THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE
THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB
ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING
THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND

[Green-Is-Good]

If the mother's life is at risk, I am for it.

[bfauble83]

Who is to say that the mother's (who has already lived a portion of her life) life is more important than the baby?

[jsarno]

Skinz...I applaud your effort, but you are indeed missing the point. God knows ALL. He knew the SOUL BEFORE conception, just as he knows the soul AFTER death. That does not in ANY way suggest a fetus is alive. If we can die, and he still know us, OF COURSE before conception he can know us.

I too have a problem with people that THINK they know the bible. But I understand not all see it clearly. Some use thier own thoughts / traditions to let it sway them, as you are here. Some just take bits and pieces (verses) and bend them to make it sound the way want. Not looking at the verses that led to the verse in question. I do not feel you are doing this in spite, or anger, or evil intentions. It is a lack of study on this issue. As I have said, I have studied this SEVERELY with numerous others, and it CHANGED MY MIND. I used to see it just as you do. Maybe you should be the one that sees this with an open mind. Go in with NO OPINION on abortion and try again.

OK, about Exodus. Did you happen to read the previous verses? "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.
Interesting how this clearly condones MURDER of a HUMAN the very verse before the one you quoted. Please note that.
Your verse quoted is speaking in regards to the father's feelings, and even suggests that the child is of value. That much is obvious sicne it is in the middle of a bunch of verses about teh abuse and punishment of SLAVES. Keep in mind that in verse 7, they speak of SELLING HIS OWN DAUGHTER. So please don't tell me this is about murder as much as it is possession and money. I know you disagree with me. But I have extensive knowledge on this issue, and the bible in general. The fact that you discount my knowledge as nearsighted sicne it doesn't mesh with your "opinions" does not mean I am not correct in my assessment. Don't you find it even somewhat interesting that I show BIBLICAL VERSES to combat your views? Every verse you show me, I can show you the intent of which it was said, and show you that you are indeed misinterpreting the comment. This is not to make a fool of you, or anger you, you know I have always RESPECTED YOU AND YOUR VIEWS. I have spent about a decade on this issue, and I have found nothing to support your argument.
I feel I must say this again. I DO NOT CONDONE ABORTION. I WOULD NEVER PARTAKE OF SUCH A PRACTICE. I just don't think it is a murder and I don't think it should be taken out of the parties involved, hands.

If you can honestly pull me out a RELEVANT verse about the killing of unborns, then I will surely listen. It is possible I missed something in the years I studied this, so I am open to listening to it.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by bfauble83
Who is to say that the mother's (who has already lived a portion of her life) life is more important than the baby?

The mother for one.
The father for two.
All the people that KNOW the mother / father for three.

She is the only one that is actually alive in a baby scenario.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Spence
Just pointing out that abortion did exist in Biblical times and would have been well-known to almost anyone. The surgical procedure as we now know it, did not exist, but the ancients were well aware of various means of artificially terminating a pregnancy.

I'm not suggesting that the Bible's silence on this issue settles anything one way or another. I'm merely writing that abortion was common knowledge among peoples long before Jesus was born.

Jporterweb, Spence already illuded to this. Abortion has been a common practice for thousands of years.
Thanks Spence.

Bigcountry, for the first time, I feel that we agree. A murder of mother and unborn is in no way similar to an abortion.

Skinz...you say there are other options. What is the option for the mother that this pregnancy will surely kill? (please keep in mind that whle we do have great technology, many mothers in the past and still today die while giving birth) Or the option to the 13 year old that was raped? If not for these and other worse case scenarios, then I would say no to abortion. I fully disagree with it as purely a birth control method. But there are circumstances that REQUIRE it to be legal.
Just ask yourself this, if you or I were truely "alive" as a fetus, wouldnt we be 9 months older than we are today?

[Skinzaholic]

JSARNO - Your entire argument is based on one simple statement... that you do not believe a fetus is "alive". (This is despite the fact that evidence has already been shown which disputes your argument based on YOUR definition itself.... see earlier post... "Abortion Facts".

In the end I suppose I will be forced to concede to your imense knowledge on the subject... afterall, you ave studied SEVERLY. You discredit all of the information and verses that I present to you by inserting your own personal revelation with no documented proof.... so you win.

Guess I'm glad our parents agreed with me.... otherwise we wouldn't be here to debate... huh?

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
JSARNO - Your entire argument is based on one simple statement... that you do not believe a fetus is "alive". (This is despite the fact that evidence has already been shown which disputes your argument based on YOUR definition itself.... see earlier post... "Abortion Facts".

In the end I suppose I will be forced to concede to your imense knowledge on the subject... afterall, you ave studied SEVERLY. You discredit all of the information and verses that I present to you by inserting your own personal revelation with no documented proof.... so you win.

Guess I'm glad our parents agreed with me.... otherwise we wouldn't be here to debate... huh?


We just clearly disagree. No need for the sarcasm that you hand out so freely. I'm not upset, nor am I trying to change your mind. It doesn't really matter to me what you think on this subject.

about your "abortion facts", they are incomplete. Take that baby outside of the womb, and see if it's "alive". It will only be alive after the 3rd trimester which I have already said is killing. You are just stating how it forms, this does not make it alive...the MOTHER forms it. The keys are teh brain waves and heart beat, both will CEASE if taken away from the life giving mother.
Also, if you're going to use arguments about "before you were in the womb I knew you", expect to hear comments about masterbation being murder. Do I think it's murder? OF COURSE NOT. But if you're going to use that off base argument, expect off base comments.
You say I have no documented proof. 1- I do, since I will be 29 years of age on Jan. 15th, otherwise I'd already be 29. So my drivers license, SS info etc are all documented proof.
2- the bible DOES NOT get specific on this subject, not even indirectly specific either for that matter. But EVERY verse you used was rebutted with extreme accuracy. The fact the bible deos not get specific on this matter is all the proof I need. But mother nature provides the rest of the proof.
It's funny that you are guilty of exactly what you're trying to show me as proof. No documented proof.
It's VERY clear you will not look at this discussion with an open mind without previous reservations like I have. You can not be 100% impartial on this. That's your choice. I have no problem with your view. Those people that get abortions will have to answer to God, not you or me. (since neither of us would ever do such a thing). So maybe you should calm down and understand what you're truely complaining about. No one is forcing an opinion on you. Just not agreeing with you. This does happen occasionally you know.

[Green-Is-Good]

Bfauble83, if you were a woman, would you give up your life for some punk kid who has not even been born yet?

[AGibbsGirl]

Interesting hypothetical headlines:
John Smith of (your local town) killed a family today. Lorri and her husband of many years were killed and the poor children are now left to fend for themselves. John SMith had too much to drink at the local bar after an argument with his girlfriend. No one stopped him from driving drunk, and he SLAMMED into Lorri's car on main street killing them instantly.

This creeps me out jsarno!!!!, Please don't use my given name if you're going to say something like this. I don't appreciate it, it's too personal. I don't know your name and I wouldn't use it under these circumstances even if I did!


As far as all of the stuff you've been saying about the abortion issue, God and the Bible...I've come to realize you must not be a Born Again Christian; if you were, you would see past all of the literal interpretations of the Bible and see to the heart of God.
And That's all I have to say here...I won't be revisiting this thread after this.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
This creeps me out jsarno!!!!, Please don't use my given name if you're going to say something like this. I don't appreciate it, it's too personal. I don't know your name and I wouldn't use it under these circumstances even if I did!

I am terribly, terribly sorry I offended you. I assure you that was not my intent. You were makign the argument that someone didn't get an abortion and therefore a person is alive and doing good. I was merely making a "what if" scenario since you weren't looking at the other side of the story. Again...I am VERY sorry. Please forgive me.

As far as all of the stuff you've been saying about the abortion issue, God and the Bible...I've come to realize you must not be a Born Again Christian; if you were, you would see past all of the literal interpretations of the Bible and see to the heart of God.
And That's all I have to say here...I won't be revisiting this thread after this.

I was originally born a Catholic until my mother started taking me to the church of christ. It was years and years later I realized that church of christ people follow their own agenda as well as the bible. And I don't go for that. I fllow the bible, and do not follow human traditions of what someone else thinks the bible says. All anyone has to do is read before and after a given quoted verse to get a feel for what is trying to be said. I'm sure if you read those chapters to which you quoted you'd get what was trying to be said as well.
I'm not saying you or skinz are wrong. It's not a bad idea to have your view. I just don't see it your way, and no one has shown me that to be biblical. (specific case) I find it particularly disturbing that since a fellow christian doesn't see it your way, you discredit him. That is not a good practice.
ps- NO ONE, NO ONE knows what is in the heart of God. I can't believe you actually said that. All we can do is strive to do the best we can with what we have. Strive to be like Jesus. If we even had a slight clue to what was in God's heart we'd all be better people. I only WISH I knew.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by jsarno
ps- NO ONE, NO ONE knows what is in the heart of God. I can't believe you actually said that. All we can do is strive to do the best we can with what we have. Strive to be like Jesus. If we even had a slight clue to what was in God's heart we'd all be better people. I only WISH I knew.


JSARNO - I want to address this once... then leave this alone since it only breeds offense and misunderstanding. I do not think it is totally truthful for you to take the stance you have taken in this thread. I never came across as attacking you... nor did AGG... we simply attacked what you were speaking from the Word of God. The reason we disagreed with you has already been clearly put in several different ways. No need to repeat it here.

You spoke as one who has AMPLE years of study under your belt, and yet you are clearly missing very basic understandings of scripture. Your attitude reeks of the "I'm right and you little people are wrong" theme... and that is why I addressed it in the first place.

I have no reason to attack you, nor make you look stupid. BUT, you were doing a fine job of that yourself... and using the Bible to help you. This makes everyone who believes the Bibe look stupid as well... can't sit back and let that happen.

Your above quote goes even futher to reveal your frame of mind. That you (or anyone) CANNOT know the heart of God is a position one would take from an outside point of view... not one who has "years of study". Instead, it shows one who has been mislead by the trappings of your own thoughts. Not meant as a slam, simply an observation. The Bible IS the heart of God... you know it, you know His heart. (That is why MOST Christians get mixed up in what they believe).

This is not something that you have only done in THIS thread... but it seems in almost every conversation you have with others you adopt this arrogant "I know everything" attitude which rubs people the wrong way. It looks worse due to the subject this time.. but I don't think the subject is relevant in this case.

I think I can speak for AGG by saying that you were not attacked... but you did the attacking in a subtle "tongue in cheek" way (as you have other times).

This case is closed for me as well... I hope you can grow in this area my friend.

No need to respond here.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
I never came across as attacking you... nor did AGG...
I'm glad you clarified because I felt as if you were saying I was a terrible Christian.

we simply attacked what you were speaking from the Word of God.

Actually I was speaking of the LACK of specifics from the word of God.

You spoke as one who has AMPLE years of study under your belt, and yet you are clearly missing very basic understandings of scripture. Your attitude reeks of the "I'm right and you little people are wrong" theme... and that is why I addressed it in the first place.

I'm sorry that I come across this way. I thought I made it a point to say that your view was not wrong. I guess I was not verbal enough to make this point.

I have no reason to attack you, nor make you look stupid. BUT, you were doing a fine job of that yourself... and using the Bible to help you. This makes everyone who believes the Bibe look stupid as well... can't sit back and let that happen.

I fully believe that I did not look stupid in my comments. Not only do I feel it wasn't stupid, but I have my father in law (minister of the Church of Christ here) and my wife trying to rebut my exact comments. BOTH of whom agreed with my take on those scriptures oddly enough. However, they have both said there are other verses (as they feel strongly about this like you do) and will show me soon. When they come to me with biblical proof, I will reassess my view. They are THE MOST knowledgable people I know when it comes to the bible. Much more so than I. My father in law is a DOCTOR of the Bible. I trust what he would have to say, and thus far, he has disagreed with your arguments against abortion. Nuff said there.

(that was not meant as a put down, I just don't think you're looking at this objectively like some others are. Agian, I respect your views.)

Your above quote goes even futher to reveal your frame of mind. That you (or anyone) CANNOT know the heart of God is a position one would take from an outside point of view... not one who has "years of study". Instead, it shows one who has been mislead by the trappings of your own thoughts. Not meant as a slam, simply an observation. The Bible IS the heart of God... you know it, you know His heart. (That is why MOST Christians get mixed up in what they believe).

I think this is where we REALLY differ. First off, I don't think any soul on earth can truely KNOW the bible. I make this conclusion from the countless ministers and people that devoted their life to the bible that still dont know it fully. I think it's impossible to fully know it cause no one knows what is in God's heart. The biggest point is the whole "grace" argument. What is God's Grace? No one knows, because no one knows his heart.

This is not something that you have only done in THIS thread... but it seems in almost every conversation you have with others you adopt this arrogant "I know everything" attitude which rubs people the wrong way. It looks worse due to the subject this time.. but I don't think the subject is relevant in this case.

I know I come across that way at times. I thought I was working on it. I am very apologetic for that. I do not know everything, nor do I want to know everything. If I did know everything I wouldn't be here. I come here to learn a thing or two, not teach.

No need to respond here.

Sorry, I felt the need to respond. Other than the fact that i felt that both of you were calling me a terrible christian, I was enjoying this conversation.

I have enjoyed your posts as well as AGG's posts immensly over the time I have been here, and I respect you both. Most of the time we see eye to eye, but this is one that I see a little differently from my studies. I assure you, when my father in law and wife get back to me, I will get back to you. They are telling me they have proof to change my mind...I will for sure here it on friday night (game night).
Until then, if I have offended any of you in any way, I truely am sorry.

[jsarno]

It'sfunny how in real life no one is ever threatened by me or my comments. I never offend anyone...but while I am here I seem to do it quite regularly. I don't know how this happens, but it appears I write much differently than I speak. Again...sorry for all the confusion, at this point I don't know quite how to change this.

[AGibbsGirl]

jsarno, first thank you for your apology about using my name the way you did, I forgive you!

Secondly, do you really think I only read one verse at a time in the Bible!!!!???? Of course I read chapters as a whole!!!

Third: You are wrong...in this...all who believe in a loving-life giving God know his heart...

Fourth: These threads are a very good example of the differences in taught religion. It's obvious that Skinz and I go to the same type of Church and have the same fundamental beliefs. You must go to a church that teaches something different. Not wrong...just different.

I would like to know if you consider yourself Born Again? I wasn't slamming you, I was just saying that because of what you've written and how you believe you must not be a Born Again.

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by jsarno
It'sfunny how in real life no one is ever threatened by me or my comments. I never offend anyone...but while I am here I seem to do it quite regularly. I don't know how this happens, but it appears I write much differently than I speak. Again...sorry for all the confusion, at this point I don't know quite how to change this.

Stop it!!!:smash:

No one is threatened you big goof!!
You (reminding me of me Dad) love a good arguement!!!

...Although I didn't like the dead Lorri and Mike thing, I was never threatened, perhaps... shocked!:

[jsarno]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
jsarno, first thank you for your apology about using my name the way you did, I forgive you!

I thought you were ignoring me. I even PMed you to apologize. I don't think you have any idea how much that bothered me that I offended you like that. I truely am deeply sorry.

I would like to know if you consider yourself Born Again? I wasn't slamming you, I was just saying that because of what you've written and how you believe you must not be a Born Again.

Depends on what you consider "born again". Some have a wierd definition even seperate religion. If you're speaking about baptism and death on the cross of Jesus / accepting him (repenting for forgiveness of sins) then yes.
I was baptised as a baby in the catholic church, then baptised again in 91 in a church of christ. (when I was old enough to understand what repenting and baptism was)
I have questioned all "traditions" that have been commonly accepted by christians. Church of Christ in particular. I first started years ago because I wore shorts and a t-shirt to sunday night church. I was running late from a practice I was the coach of and just went like I was. I was BLASTEDfor it, and thus NEVER go to sunday night church again. After looking up the verses, I found the "sinner in rags" verses and was quite offended that this church practices traditions over biblical fact. I have found SEVERAL since then, including abortion, but abortion is still a subject that I don't care they see it that way. I'd rather them see that one that certain way since "it's better to be safe than sorry". It's not a pet peeve of mine. Ever since I started looking years back, I haven't stopped. I figure God is telling me to question and find out the "truth" for myself. I may not be right all the time, but I feel He is most certainly helping me on this path.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl

You (reminding me of me Dad) love a good arguement!!!

I do love a good argument. Sometimes I just don't understand how I am taken in an argument though. I am sitting here thinking I'm doing fine not offending anyone with a smile on my face, and then BAM, someone gets all offended. I really don't know how to stop that. I blame it on the impersonal relationship of the internet coupled with my glaring inability to see how I come across to others.
But I come here to learn a thing or two, and enjoy some witty banter! I hpe everyone here does. I know quite a few that won't listen to what anyone else has to say, and it's annoying.

[NamVet4]

The Almighty Creator, in Her wisdom, gave Life to all; and with that Gift came the free will to choose what to do with that life. We procreate for a multitude of reasons: sexual gratification, self worth, dependent legacy, etc. The basest of life forms can conceive and reproduce its life form. Only Humankind consciously makes the decision to defer and/or deny conception, to allow life to come to term or terminate conception. We debate, endlessly, with both scientific and non-scientific allegation and presentation, on the merits of when ” life” itself commences.
We question the role of organized government in this whole process; we site the aberrations of human nature as evidenced by rape and incest; we attempt to justify the rights of all parties involved.

I am a born Roman Catholic with 16 years of formal education under the guidance of the Catholic Church. I would not, nor dare ever, to make or enforce any law that causes the unjustified loss of human life. I would not, nor dare ever, presuppose to understand what a woman goes through during the process of giving life; yet I have taken life in the name of my country.

I stand and declare the following:
Life is the most precious Gift, understanding that Gift, how to receive it and use it are the true choices the Creator has given us. Humankind is given the choice, exercising that right to choose is the gift we each, individually give to the Almighty Creator.

[Spence]

Originally posted by NamVet4
The Almighty Creator, in Her wisdom, gave Life to all; and with that Gift came the free will to choose what to do with that life. We procreate for a multitude of reasons: sexual gratification, self worth, dependent legacy, etc. The basest of life forms can conceive and reproduce its life form. Only Humankind consciously makes the decision to defer and/or deny conception, to allow life to come to term or terminate conception. We debate, endlessly, with both scientific and non-scientific allegation and presentation, on the merits of when ” life” itself commences.
We question the role of organized government in this whole process; we site the aberrations of human nature as evidenced by rape and incest; we attempt to justify the rights of all parties involved.

I am a born Roman Catholic with 16 years of formal education under the guidance of the Catholic Church. I would not, nor dare ever, to make or enforce any law that causes the unjustified loss of human life. I would not, nor dare ever, presuppose to understand what a woman goes through during the process of giving life; yet I have taken life in the name of my country.

I stand and declare the following:
Life is the most precious Gift, understanding that Gift, how to receive it and use it are the true choices the Creator has given us. Humankind is given the choice, exercising that right to choose is the gift we each, individually give to the Almighty Creator. Easily the most sensible and eloquent thing I've read in this thread. Thanks, NamVet.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by NamVet4
The Almighty Creator, in Her wisdom

Why do you (and some others) call God "her". We are made in His image so I'm sure it's not terrible to say such a thing. But the bible speaks of God as Him. I'm curious as to why you chose to say "her". (not that there is anything wrong with that, just curious)

Life is the most precious Gift, understanding that Gift, how to receive it and use it are the true choices the Creator has given us. Humankind is given the choice, exercising that right to choose is the gift we each, individually give to the Almighty Creator.

I'm a little confused on this, are you saying that it's our choice to take a life or not? It seems you're saying you're leaving it up in God's hands to choose the life, but then where do humans fit in since we have free will?

[NamVet4]

JSarno,

I do not advocate that I have an intimate relationship with the Almighty Creator, nor would I dain to infer or deny the essence of that Being; as a matter of fact, I use both the masculine and femine form when I refer to that which I recogonize is greater than I could ever become. If anything, I am guilty of assuming that I do not offend, and if I do I apologize! The Almighty Creator so loves Humankind that we are blessed with the diversity of many races, colors, creed, shapes and form and it is our soul that is made in the image of the Creator.

I also think, if anything in this world makes sense, it is that Humankind is given Life, a great gift, and along with that gift comes free will and all the attendant power and responsibility.
I say it is the understanding and exercise of that free will, in accordance with the laws of the Creator and man, that guide our existence and our choices.

If this appears vague or non responsive to you, remember it is my understanding of the relationship of Humankind and the Creator.
I appreciate reading all the points of view expressed here and hope that we will all draw some insight and understanding from what has been written.

[BigCountry]

I'm not gonna name names here but going through this thread, I noticed that there was waaaaaaay too much preaching for this to be considered a debate. Alot of people need to view the way they debate and state their beliefs as their own instead of talking about them as if they were a given. It's nobodies place to say things like that and personally I would have locked this thread because the minute people start doing that, I don't believe there's a point anymore.

[NamVet4]

I'm sorry if I upset you BigCountry, I thought this was, as the title stated, a question of "where do you stand on abortion"
This indicated to me that this was a place to state what my beliefs are and why I had my those beliefs. If other posters take issue with them, so be it. Perhaps I failed to realize that some posters wanted to declare a set of facts and debate the merits of each side of the issue.
Enough said by me for this thread.

[Spence]

NAMVET: Actually, I don't think BigCountry was thinking of you. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my hunch. And for the record, I didn't have any trouble understanding what you meant. Perhaps because, like you, I do not claim to have a hotline to Heaven supplying me with all the answers.

[REDMAN]

Amen, AGibbsGirl.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by NamVet4
JSarno,

I do not advocate that I have an intimate relationship with the Almighty Creator, nor would I dain to infer or deny the essence of that Being; as a matter of fact, I use both the masculine and femine form when I refer to that which I recogonize is greater than I could ever become. If anything, I am guilty of assuming that I do not offend, and if I do I apologize! The Almighty Creator so loves Humankind that we are blessed with the diversity of many races, colors, creed, shapes and form and it is our soul that is made in the image of the Creator.

I also think, if anything in this world makes sense, it is that Humankind is given Life, a great gift, and along with that gift comes free will and all the attendant power and responsibility.
I say it is the understanding and exercise of that free will, in accordance with the laws of the Creator and man, that guide our existence and our choices.

If this appears vague or non responsive to you, remember it is my understanding of the relationship of Humankind and the Creator.
I appreciate reading all the points of view expressed here and hope that we will all draw some insight and understanding from what has been written.

Thanksfor the clarification. I was just curious as to why you used "HER", but now I understand a little better. Your underlying tones were confusing to me, I didn't know which way to take them, but you're crystal clear to me now. Thanks again for clarifying.

[BigCountry]

Ok namvet your pm box is full and I kindda feel bad so no, I wasn't reffering to you.

[jsarno]

yours was full too big country...I tried replying to you.

[Keino]

Wow. Pro-Choice. NamVet makes the most eloquent argument. Free will and Free choice are the greatest gifts God gave to us.

[AGibbsGirl]

Big country is correct, and I am one of the ones he is speaking of.

Originally I started out with my opinions, based on my religious belief and then got into a religious debate with jsarno.
A few posts did relate to the abortion issue, but then I sorta deteriorated…

My apologies fellas!!! I will stick strictly to statement of opinions in the future and not as to WHY I have these opinions. I think that is what BigCountry means?...?

[IowaSkinsFan]

Having witnessed the birth of 4 children myself, there is no way I could go through with an abortion. I am pro life.....

However, it is none of my business what other people do with their lives...........

[Green-Is-Good]

Robert, wouldn't that make you pro-choice? :D

[IowaSkinsFan]

No, I myself could never go through with it and would never use it as an option. This feeling has just been reinforced in the last 2 days.

[higgybaby]

A gibbs girl should not have to apologize for her opinions or how she stated those opinions! I think that everybody in this forum has debated this issue in accordance with the title of the post's question. Where do you stand on abortion? Wouldn't this site be so vanilla/bland if AGG had to preface every statement that she made with"now this is only my opinion" or "in my opinion" and so on!! Thats like the old seinfeld cliche' not that there is anything wrong with that' It gets so old and fake and plastic and politically correct. Come on, we are all adults in this forum and I for one do not think that we are incapable to handle and understand that whenever someone makes a statement in here, it is their opinion that they are stating. Of course, we all understand this or at least it should be reasonable to assume that we all do.

[Spence]

Originally posted by robert11273
No, I myself could never go through with it and would never use it as an option. This feeling has just been reinforced in the last 2 days. Sounds like you're personally pro-life and politically pro-choice. That describes most people, I think.

[AGibbsGirl]

Congratulations robert11273?
How's the missus doing?
How big was the baby and what's the name?
I think you were having a girl correct?

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by higgybaby
A gibbs girl should not have to apologize for her opinions or how she stated those opinions! I think that everybody in this forum has debated this issue in accordance with the title of the post's question. Where do you stand on abortion? Wouldn't this site be so vanilla/bland if AGG had to preface every statement that she made with"now this is only my opinion" or "in my opinion" and so on!! Thats like the old seinfeld cliche' not that there is anything wrong with that' It gets so old and fake and plastic and politically correct. Come on, we are all adults in this forum and I for one do not think that we are incapable to handle and understand that whenever someone makes a statement in here, it is their opinion that they are stating. Of course, we all understand this or at least it should be reasonable to assume that we all do.

Thanks higgybaby I appreciate this, but just to be fair, my apology was for getting into a "religious" debate in the middle of this thread. It sorta turned some people off...and for that I apologized, not for my opinions on the subject.

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
Congratulations robert11273?
How's the missus doing?
How big was the baby and what's the name?
I think you were having a girl correct?


Ah heck...don't ya know I just found the thread with the birth announcement...

[higgybaby]

quote "jporterweb, are you suggesting that a raped teenager or a pregnant teenager that was raped by a family member, be forced to carry the baby to term just to give it away in adoption?
To me in that scenario there is only ONE option, and that's abortion. IMO."

Incest and rape are horrible crimes. Offenders should be punished, and young girls should be carefully protected from further abuse. Decisive personal and legal intervention should be taken to remove a girl from the presence of a relative who has sexually abused her. The abuser--- not the girl or her child--- is the problem. Intervention, protection, and ongoing personal help for the girl---- not the death of an innocent child -- is the solution. Despite popular beliefs, fetal deformity is rare in such cases. Even if the child has handicaps, however, he still deserves to live.

[jsarno]

tell your daughter or wife that, and see what they think.

Once a family member has to go through it, their minds change. I've seen it.
Make your 13 year old daughter go to term with a baby that was a result of rape and see how quickly your views change on this.
No, it's not the innocent baby's fault. But a baby is meant to have been concieved by either love, or mutual lust (as in sexual desires that are MUTUAL). Not a crime. Not rape.

I'm trying not to get emotional over what you said. I find it appualing that you are suggesting that someone be forced to carry a fetus to term even in the case of a rape. So I will leave for now.

[BigCountry]

I've seen it happen to a friend out of what you called mutual lust and her life would have been ruined if she hadn't got an abortion. I told this to her 1000 times and I'd do it again: Don't listen to what anyone tells you about religion or so called morals because you're gonna end up being the one throwing your future in the trash over an accident, not them.

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally posted by jsarno
tell your daughter or wife that, and see what they think.

Once a family member has to go through it, their minds change. I've seen it.
Make your 13 year old daughter go to term with a baby that was a result of rape and see how quickly your views change on this.
No, it's not the innocent baby's fault. But a baby is meant to have been concieved by either love, or mutual lust (as in sexual desires that are MUTUAL). Not a crime. Not rape.

I'm trying not to get emotional over what you said. I find it appualing that you are suggesting that someone be forced to carry a fetus to term even in the case of a rape. So I will leave for now.

I agree jsarno. I am Pro Life, do not believe in lust abortions, you were cognizant, you knew what you were doing, you knew the risks. BUT rape or incest wher ethere is no choice, it is by force. Man, I can't understand that view at all, I just simply can not.

[jsarno]

It's not the first time I've heard that view and it won't be the last. Each time it disturbs me to my core.

[higgybaby]

That view is based on the knowledge that we are talking about two people here, the mother and the unborn baby. I am talking about loving them both.

[higgybaby]

why is it that noone seems to think that we can love them both?(the mother and the unborn baby)