Prayer in School

[PennSkinsFan]

Please vote

[Spence]

We already have prayer in schools. As long as there are math tests, kids will pray in school. What I oppose are any oganized prayers, since they will inevitably lead to conflict and controversy.

[jsarno]

Yes...this is going to turn into a religious debate, but it should be allowed 100%. Organized or not.
As long as no kid is "FORCED" to pray, it should be allowed and encouraged. Without God this country is headed down the toilet.

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally posted by jsarno
Yes...this is going to turn into a religious debate, but it should be allowed 100%. Organized or not.
As long as no kid is "FORCED" to pray, it should be allowed and encouraged. Without God this country is headed down the toilet.

Voted yes as well.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by jsarno
Yes...this is going to turn into a religious debate, but it should be allowed 100%. Organized or not.
As long as no kid is "FORCED" to pray, it should be allowed and encouraged. Without God this country is headed down the toilet.

My thoughts EXACTLY

[bfauble83]

Originally posted by jsarno
Yes...this is going to turn into a religious debate, but it should be allowed 100%. Organized or not.
As long as no kid is "FORCED" to pray, it should be allowed and encouraged. Without God this country is headed down the toilet.

You said it all right there.

[Skins57]

I also voted yes but I can see both sides.

[Skinzaholic]

Do I really have to tell any of you MY answer?


(by the way... it is "Yes" all the way).

[Seebs]

No, and i've been for 17 years in a catholic school. I don't want any organized prayer in public shcool. School needs to teach you to be a human being. Religion is no part of it.

[Green-Is-Good]

No. I know that 92 percent of the country's population is Christian, but how many truly are pious? I'd say under 5%. Besides, the theory of evolution is taught in schools.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Green Is Good
Besides, the theory of evolution is taught in schools.


But no one is saying to teach God in schools, but allowing prayer.


Seebs, were you FORCED to pray?

[Green-Is-Good]

What about atheists and agnostics? They would be forced to play as well?

[Spence]

Originally posted by Green Is Good
What about atheists and agnostics? They would be forced to play as well? No, they'd just be harassed by teachers who don't approve of their choice and beaten up by all the kids during recess or gym.

I had a girlfriend who is half-Jewish. She was born in California, but her family eventually moved to rural Missouri. Two of her teachers constantly harassed her about going to Hell because of her Jewish ancestry and several students routinely gave her the Nazi salute when she came to class. That sort of thing does not happen in civilized places [such as, where I live], but it does happen in other places all over the country. That's the part of school prayer the religious fundis don't want you to think about.

[Keino]

No. Pray at Home. What purpose does it serve? If an individual chooses to pray on their own, they shouldn't be stopped or forbiden to do so, but I am oppossed to a "prayer time" and any organized prayer. Teach my kid how to read and calculate math formulas, I will teach my kid about God.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Green Is Good
What about atheists and agnostics? They would be forced to play as well?


Well, my proposal is that NO ONE be forced. I grew up in a town that allowed prayer, but no one was forced to partake.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Spence
No, they'd just be harassed by teachers who don't approve of their choice and beaten up by all the kids during recess or gym.

I had a girlfriend who is half-Jewish. She was born in California, but her family eventually moved to rural Missouri. Two of her teachers constantly harassed her about going to Hell because of her Jewish ancestry and several students routinely gave her the Nazi salute when she came to class. That sort of thing does not happen in civilized places [such as, where I live], but it does happen in other places all over the country. That's the part of school prayer the religious fundis don't want you to think about.

Spence, that was a long time ago. It rarely happens anymore thanks to acceptance. You know as well as I do the scrutuny these school are now under.

Part of what the non religious people don't want you to hear is that they are against it in schools no matter even if it's before a (singular) child eats lunch. Who cares if students want to have thier own prayer circles?
But NO ONE, no student should be forced to pray to someone they don't believe in.

I got in trouble with the catholic church about 6 years ago when my brother got married. The priest wanted me to bow to a statue of mary. I refused to do it. The ceremony came, and he watched me and I did not bow to Mary. After the service he came up to me and tried to chew me out for that. I told him that Mary is HIS GOD, not mine. I do not believe in even remotely worshipping Mary, therefore I should have not have been forced to do it. (more was said...but you get the picture) I feel that applies to all students. We all are given to the right to worship whatever religion we want. No one should be forced to worship someone else's belief. But no one shouldbe stopped from worshipping their God in private either. It's a two way street.

PS- even if all the kids around you were praying in school, it doesn't mean youhad to. I did not tell that priest he's an idiot, and should stop doing such a thing. I accepted it as HIS pactice, and did not partake of it. Those kids could have sat there quietly and prayed to their god, or just observed a moment of silence.

[Spence]

Originally posted by jsarno
Spence, that was a long time ago. It rarely happens anymore thanks to acceptance. You know as well as I do the scrutuny these school are now under.

Part of what the non religious people don't want you to hear is that they are against it in schools no matter even if it's before a (singular) child eats lunch. Who cares if students want to have thier own prayer circles?
JSARNO, you are flat wrong. Religious harassment happens all the time in our schools. What do you mean it does not happen anymore. My ex-girlfriend is now 26 years old. This happened to her less than 10 years ago. You think that sort of thing has gone away since then? You better think again. Since 9/11 it has gotten worse.

I don't care if some kid or kids want to bow their head/s before lunch. There is nothing illegal about that now. Any kid who wants to do it can do it. Any group of kids who want to do it can do it. It simply cannot be sanctioned and organized by a public school. That's all.

[Spearfeather]

I think a silent minute is the best option.

[Green-Is-Good]

School is were kids get an education, not re-education.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Spence
It simply cannot be sanctioned and organized by a public school. That's all.


What are you saying the schools are doing that is SOOO bad? (looking for specifics)

[Spence]

I'm sorry, JSARNO, I don't understand your question. As someone who opposes organized prayer in public schools, I'm quite content with the current legal and constitutional matrix.

[jsarno]

I personally haven't seen any schools forcing prayer down any kids throats.
And why can't it be organized by the school? If they set up a place where kids can pray or whatever, then so what? It's a private place to pray. Like football players have thier own orginzation in school. I just don't see the big deal. As long as it a non christian is NEVER forced to pray.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Originally posted by Spence
No, they'd just be harassed by teachers who don't approve of their choice and beaten up by all the kids during recess or gym.

I had a girlfriend who is half-Jewish. She was born in California, but her family eventually moved to rural Missouri. Two of her teachers constantly harassed her about going to Hell because of her Jewish ancestry and several students routinely gave her the Nazi salute when she came to class. That sort of thing does not happen in civilized places [such as, where I live], but it does happen in other places all over the country. That's the part of school prayer the religious fundis don't want you to think about.


Half-Jewish? How can you be half Jewish? My parents were Lutheran and Presbyterian, does that make me a Lutherterian? It's a religion, not a nationality.

[Ford]

First of all I mean to vote no but accidentally clicked yes. This is one of my big personal issues. Students can pray and do whatever the hell they want in their free time .. why must it interfere with school where it will only produce negative results and ostracize and discomfort students with different or no religions.

It needs to start with 'Under God' being taken out of the pledge. If you want kids to say the pledge in school, take it back to it's original form the way it was before Ike Eisenhower got the bright idea to throw a religious aspect into it. In middle school I was strongly athiest (my arrogance has slowly waned over the years and i now consider myself agnostic :p) .. I refused to recite the pledge at my school so long as 'under god' was included .. and got ISS (in school suspension) for a couple days for it. It's not that I have any problem with religion being taught in school .. I think religious history and cross-cultural classes should be taught .. but as much as I love my country I will never pledge allegiance to it 'under god', or condone prayer in school. Silent prayer or whatever ... it's basically singling out the kids who aren't religious and trying to make them as rediuclously uncomfortable as possible.

Originally posted by Spence
That sort of thing does not happen in civilized places [such as, where I live], but it does happen in other places all over the country

Spence .. I've grown up in the same area as you .. went to the same elementary and middle school .. and I disagree with that comment. There are just as many bigots around here, it's just not as open.

Half-Jewish? How can you be half Jewish? My parents were Lutheran and Presbyterian, does that make me a Lutherterian? It's a religion, not a nationality

I think you're wrong there Robert. No Judaism isn't a nationality, but there is more to it than simply the religious aspects. My mother is jewish .. my father methodist. Religiously, I'm not jewish, but I do take pride in jewish heritage and cultural aspects of the religion (I'm more like my dad .. but I've learned alot from the jewish side of my family). No, I don't recite the torah or go to temple, but many of the jews who were killed for their religion both during and prior to the holacaust, and in Russia were my ancestors .. and whether many people like to admit it or not there is a cultural bond aspect to judaism that developed when that large a group of people is so heavily persecuted.

[Skinzaholic]

I have a major problem with your points Ford... I feel that taking OUT "under God" from the pledge is just as much an infringement on personal rights as leaving it in is. Getting beyond the overwhelming proof that our nation was founded on Christian principles... by removing "offensive" statements we cater to one side of the argument over another.

What about evolution? That is clearly a "religion" by definition and yet it is openly taught in our schools as required curriculum. What about Halloween? What about all of the many many areas where religion and life mix?

The problem isnt freedom of religion, it is people with morals and convictions that counter the original stance of our nation coming in and trying to dictate the laws.

Do I feel it was wrong for you to receive ISS for refusing the say that part of the pledge? Yes, unless you were disruputive about it. But, it also MUST be recognized that there ARE many Christians in this nation (actually polls show more than ANY other "religion") and THEY have just as many rights.

I said the pledge of allegience all through grade school and never felt any adverse affects. If freedom is truely freedom... then we should be free to practice as we please.

[jsarno]

I'm apologizing in advance for my following comment. I just don't think I can keep it in any longer for this is something that truely puzzles and annoys me.
How can ANYONE on this planet not believe there is a God? How short sighted can you be? Where did we all come from? Look att the complexities of the human body, or how the world in general looks. God's finger prints are everywhere. So maybe people should spend less time trying to deny Him, and more time opening your eyes to see what He has made.
It just floors me that if you really want to analyze the existance of God, it's a 50/50 manner by facts (I believe it to be 100%, but I'm saying this for the sake of argument). We can't give concrete in hand proof of God, nor can you give concrete (or even mush) proof that there is not a God. You know that if there is a God and you don't believe in Him, you will be damned, but if there is no God then you're just worm food. So why in the world would any individual deny the existance of God when there is nothing to benefit from not believing? What the hell is the point of not believing? This is about one of the dumbest things I've ever encountered. But it's glorified through PC. Doesn't make any sense at all. You can't even breathe and not find the existance of God.
So whether you like it or not, we are indeed one nation under God. If you don't believe it, that's your choice. Sit there and keep your mouth shut then, but don't send our impressionable youth to hell because you're too obtuse to see what's right in front of you!

Again...I apologize, I know full well that was offensive. I just have a strong emotion to this and felt it needed to be said / heard.

[BigCountry]

It's cool that you have a strong opinion on something, just don't force it on other people. They also have a right to believe, or not believe, in whatever they please. Don't look at it as a fact just because it's your belief.

[jsarno]

I know what you're saying. But God is fact. There is nothing to prove otherwise. Nothing. But everything, even at it's basic form proves God is real. By mother nature's standards (human common sense) everything has to be made by something unless it is of devine power. Even the big bang had to have been made by something.
I'm not trying to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. I've more or less venting. I could care less what others believe. I am responsible for myself only. It just floors me that common sense is thrown out the window when people speak of God.

[Skinzaholic]

I can understand the position many have in this area of prayer in school. I wouldn't want anyone forcing my daughters to pray or meditate or chant in a way I find incorrect by my personal religion. But, I have also the same argument about our current school systems and the way they teach aetheism, evolution, humanism, etc etc. It is the same thing.

There are two suggestions for those who are against prayer for that reason...

1. Allow the silent time for prayer, meditation, or just day dreaming. That is reasonable for a nation such as ours with such diversity.

2. Since I personally would object to my daughters being forced to worship Allah... then I wont move to Iran and live there! It would seem stupid for me to move to an Islamic state and scream for a system change, and yet that is exactly what this sounds like.

[jsarno]

I can agree about the prayer issue with you skinz...my rant was more from the "under God" comment.
How many kids actually know what they are doing anyway? Pledging allegiance to a FLAG? Do they have any idea what they are saying? In New Mexico they pledge allegiance to the flag, then pledge allegiance to the Zia. (new mexico flag)

Maybe we should more up in arms about actually saying these pledges to a flag than the fact that we are one nation under God.

[Ford]

Jsarno .. I don't know why I should even reward your grandiloquent rants with a response but I'm simply going to say it's people like you, who are so close minded and are unwilling to respect anyone else's views screw the world up for every one else. God isn't a MFing fact .. if in the future you feel like you're going to preach, take a sledge hammer to your computer.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I'll just poke my head in here for a moment becuase, still being in high school, I have a bit of personal experience with this one.

For anyone who doesn't think there's still religious harassment in schools, there is. There was a Jewish girl in my school who got harassed almost every day last year. There was a group of people who would always make jokes about the Holocaust and Jews in general whenever she was around. It was terrible, but only seemed to get worse as the year went on. And keep in mind that this was in a private school in northern VA. If it can happen there, it can definitely happen anywhere in the country.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Ford
Jsarno .. I don't know why I should even reward your grandiloquent rants with a response but I'm simply going to say it's people like you, who are so close minded and are unwilling to respect anyone else's views screw the world up for every one else. God isn't a MFing fact .. if in the future you feel like you're going to preach, take a sledge hammer to your computer.

Well, I actually don't go around preaching that to others. Just getting tired of hearing all the PC crap being spewed here, so I thought I'd throw in the two cents of the NON PC CRAP.

That's ok...you don't have to believe the sky is blue, or the grass is green, or that children are small, or that God is a fact. Fact is, you'll remember this conversation after you die.

PS- close minded would be that of YOUR view. It's easier to believe in only those things you can see with your own two eyes and touch with your own two hands, not those you can not. So sorry my friend. You are indeed what you just condemned. Don't forget that YOU are the one that is ignoring Skinz perfectly good comments about how non christian beliefs / agnostic beliefs are being taught but not christian beliefs despite the fact that this country is 90% or so christian. When you point your finger, there is 3 pointing back at you.
Also...I do respect your view. I respect EVERYONE'S view, regardless of how wrong they are. Why? Because I don't have to concern myself with what you think. Only you are responsible for yourself. God gave you the free will, it's up to you to use it correctly. So don't confuse my rant with lack of respect. Just because I know you're wrong, doesn't mean I don't respect your view. (I did apologize for it in advance, and when it ended.)

[jsarno]

ps- maybe it's YOU needed to respect other's views ford.

[Ford]

Originally posted by jsarno
ps- maybe it's YOU needed to respect other's views ford.

Excuse me?? Are you completely oblivious to everything that's been said? You don't present your views, you try to force them on other people. Completely disregarding anyone else's opinion and annointing yours as the only one one can give credence to is the epitome of close minded. With all of the different religions in the world and people who believe in their religions as die-hard as you .. how can you completely dismiss the possibility that your way isn't 100% correct? I don't completely dismiss the possibility of a god, I just have my doubts. I guess I'm not as oblivious as you but I don't know where you pull your views out of.

[jsarno]

who's "forcing"? Writing them down on a public forum to combat opposing views is "forcing"? If you don't like it, don't read it. I warned you when I started my rant.
I understand now...I can't diplay my opinion if it doesn't mesh with yours...or is not PC. Whatever man. No one is saying you have to agree. But I will guar-ron-dang-tee you'll be sorry after you die for not agreeing.
Good luck to you and your "can't possibly help you" view. You're gonna need it!

[Ford]

Is there any way to make it so you can ignore posts from a designated user? Some posts aren't worth the split second it takes to see the name attached to them ..

[Skinzaholic]

Yes... it is called a scroll down button.

[jsarno]

:lol1:

It works GREAT too! :D

So does anyone know the progression (if any) that has occured with the "prayer in school" issue?

[BigCountry]

QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeDaSchmoe
I'll just poke my head in here for a moment becuase, still being in high school, I have a bit of personal experience with this one.

For anyone who doesn't think there's still religious harassment in schools, there is. There was a Jewish girl in my school who got harassed almost every day last year. There was a group of people who would always make jokes about the Holocaust and Jews in general whenever she was around. It was terrible, but only seemed to get worse as the year went on. And keep in mind that this was in a private school in northern VA. If it can happen there, it can definitely happen anywhere in the country. [/QUOTE]


That's very sad and I think since I moved to So Cal and white people were a minority in my high school, I wasn't aware those things would happen. I sure as hell never worried about being Jewish where I'm at but I guess if I was in a place like Alabama or certain parts of Texas then it'd be differant. Which brings me to my next point, I grew up in England as a kid and I think it was in 2nd and 3rd grade that the whole class WOULD pray (Christian praying of course) and go to Church once a week. Even though I was only a kid, I politely refused, and when that didn't work, I just refused. Needless to say I probably talked to 2 people (one of the being the teacher) in the duration of 2nd and 3rd grade. What the supporters of organized prayer have pretty much been saying is that they support organized Christian prayer and if you don't think that it would cause trouble for minority kids, then you need to spend some time in their shoes and actually look at the world without your religious glasses on for a second and I know this will come as a huge shock, but not everyone believes in the same thing you do, nor do they have too. JSarno you were telling Ford you don't envy what's gonna happen to him after he dies. What right do you have telling someone that? If that's not forcing your beliefs on others, I shudder to think what is.

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
I can understand the position many have in this area of prayer in school. I wouldn't want anyone forcing my daughters to pray or meditate or chant in a way I find incorrect by my personal religion. But, I have also the same argument about our current school systems and the way they teach aetheism, evolution, humanism, etc etc. It is the same thing.

There are two suggestions for those who are against prayer for that reason...

1. Allow the silent time for prayer, meditation, or just day dreaming. That is reasonable for a nation such as ours with such diversity.

2. Since I personally would object to my daughters being forced to worship Allah... then I wont move to Iran and live there! It would seem stupid for me to move to an Islamic state and scream for a system change, and yet that is exactly what this sounds like.

Man, this issue sucks. :D

1. I agree. Silent time for prayer or mediatation is perfect solution. Prayer is a big part of lives for all, whether it is christian, jewish, islmaic, buddhist, or whatever. Athiest are fine as well, i guess. I, like jsarno, can not fathom not understanding that there is a supreme being out there. We live, we breathe, we taste, we smell, a supreme being had to create that or start it or whatever. I can see differeing opinion on God and on how we were created, but can not understand the notion that ther eis no supreme being. How did this thing call life all start? Big Bang? Who started the Big bang?

To me it is and will always be God, the Father. It is truly sad we had to take prayer out of school, but as an indication of a changing nation, we were founded for religious freedom and most colonists made there way here because of persecution in Europe. We have changed and become more diverse, so I can see whay prayer was taken out.

2. Won't move to Iran? I see what you are saying, but I don't think we are entirely viewed as a Christian nation world wide, I think we are viewed as a nation that recognizes religious tolerence. That is why diversity has happened and that is why immigration still is high. I agree, many christians or other religious affiliated people may not want to move to Itran because they are not Islamic, but I dont think not being a Christian is a factor in a decision to move to the USA.

It's a difficult subject and get alot of people fired up on bioth sides. Religion has a way of doing that, just look at the Middle East.I am a Christian, i believe ion God and his only Son, Jesus Christ, but to push it on others, that is not me. You don't believe, you don't believe. I am fortunate that I do.

[Spence]

I've always supported a few moments of silence [20 seconds, 30 seconds, 60 seconds--whatever] at the beginning of school. As long as everyone is silent and the teacher does not instruct anyone to do anything other than be silent, I see no problem at all. Everyone I know who opposes organized school prayer would be happy with that scenario. All reasonable people would be pleased and the non-reasonable people [those who insist we all worship just as the Jerry Falwell instructs us to] will be marginalized. Just as they deserve to be.

[Spence]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
I am a Christian, i believe ion God and his only Son, Jesus Christ, but to push it on others, that is not me. You don't believe, you don't believe. I am fortunate that I do. Perhaps you can explain those three sixes on your forehead then.

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally posted by Spence
Perhaps you can explain those three sixes on your forehead then.

Quit looking in the mirror and admiring your forehead

[Spence]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
Quit looking in the mirror and admiring your forehead Well, it is lovely--I do admit that. But, fortunately, numeral-free. At the tailgate I think we all recognized Mark as the adult version of that little Damien kid from "The Omen." About the same height. Similar air of evil.

Think about it...

[Ford]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
Big Bang? Who started the Big bang?


Same question can be turned on religious views. Where did god come from/who created god? Noone, god created the world? So he just randomly came to life one day?

[PennSkinsFan]

Originally posted by Ford
Same question can be turned on religious views. Where did god come from/who created god? Noone, god created the world? So he just randomly came to life one day?

and I understand that belief, but Dan, doesn't something need to start somewhere?

I chalk it up to my religious beliefs in the fact that, one day we will understand everything, but for now, God doesn't desire us to know, i guess in essence, it is having faith.

[dukeuch]

Bottom line: There is a difference between teaching about religions, and praying. If you want to pray or practice a particular religion, go to the church of your choice. That way nobody will impose on your religious beliefs, and you will not impose oin theirs.

What is so wrong with that?

[Ford]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
and I understand that belief, but Dan, doesn't something need to start somewhere?

I chalk it up to my religious beliefs in the fact that, one day we will understand everything, but for now, God doesn't desire us to know, i guess in essence, it is having faith.

I agree that it comes down to having faith. I'm not saying your regligious views are necessarily wrong, I just don't think they can be portrayed as 100% fact. There is an element of doubt in everything, I have no problem with strongly religious people, in fact I respect their dedication to and faith in what they believe in .. I just don't think there is undoubtedly a god. Don't think there undoubtedly isn't a supreme being either.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by Ford
I agree that it comes down to having faith. I'm not saying your regligious views are necessarily wrong, I just don't think they can be portrayed as 100% fact. There is an element of doubt in everything, I have no problem with strongly religious people, in fact I respect their dedication to and faith in what they believe in .. I just don't think there is undoubtedly a god. Don't think there undoubtedly isn't a supreme being either.

Ungfortunately, Ford, you are about to find out that those who disagree with you here will never acknowledge that there is even the slightest chance that their view on God's existence is wrong. They will patiently explain that you are welcome to you view (foolhardy as it is, and "boy are you going to regret it later") but it is obviously wrong. They will quote the Bible as if it's existence in itself proves that there is a God, and should you point out the inconsistencies in some of it's verses, get bogged down in arguements of the word's meanings, ultimately trumping you with claims that they are biblical scholars who have spent a lifetime studying this fine book.

Logic and science will sway them not. Their faith is comendable (I mean that) however they will never admit that faith is at it's core the belief in something that cannot be proven, and that their arguements are based on faith, not fact.

[BigCountry]

Yes they will. Then I'll jump out the window and fly to Houston where I'll be watching the Texans and Cardinals in the Superbowl :D :p

[Keino]

What surprises me the most is that the people who are so Faithful are the same people wo support our Murdering President. That's what I don't get at all.....To me Bush represents the Devil himself.

[jsarno]

what does that have to do with prayer in school?

ps- all presidents have had to make decisions which kill others. Getting all "holyier than thou" doesn't change that.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by jsarno
what does that have to do with prayer in school?

ps- all presidents have had to make decisions which kill others. Getting all "holyier than thou" doesn't change that.

What does that have to do with prayer in school?

[jsarno]

Originally posted by dukeuch
What does that have to do with prayer in school?

EXACTLY!!

[Skins57]

Originally posted by Keino
What surprises me the most is that the people who are so Faithful are the same people wo support our Murdering President. That's what I don't get at all.....To me Bush represents the Devil himself.


Doesn't make sense does it Keino? I wondered that myself.

[Keino]

Originally posted by jsarno
what does that have to do with prayer in school?

ps- all presidents have had to make decisions which kill others. Getting all "holyier than thou" doesn't change that.


On the Face it has nothing to do with Prayer in School. However, I happen to believe that there is a certain interconnectedness between Policy and action. If you make it a policy to worship God (Prayer in School), then your actions should be consistant with those of a God Fearing man. You don't sanction unjustifiable war, one in which you used lies and inuendo to garner support for and then blame colatteral damage and death of innocents as a necessary consequence. Not very Christ-like if you ask me.

So on the one hand to Force Chist-like Worship on people and then to not act Christlike in dealing with other nations of this world make one a Hypocrite and makes one's position of power illegitimate.

In other words, Don't in one breath be all gung-ho about killing some Arabs, then try in the next breath to tell me about how th declining morals in our country are directly related to no organized prayer in Public Schools.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Keino
However, I happen to believe that there is a certain interconnectedness between Policy and action. If you make it a policy to worship God (Prayer in School), then your actions should be consistant with those of a God Fearing man. You don't sanction unjustifiable war, one in which you used lies and inuendo to garner support for and then blame colatteral damage and death of innocents as a necessary consequence. Not very Christ-like if you ask me.

What is "not very Christ like" is the COMPLETE ABSENCE of God in the schools. They do not in any way teach Christ, even though (for instance) B.C. (before Christ) is used in every day lingo.

About the war. first and foremost, we are being protected. We were attacked and that caused a reaction from us...don't forget this as sooo many of you have. We would not be in this situation had we not been attacked. If we were not doing anything, I'd bet a billion dollars other attacks would have happened on our soil. We should be thanking them for the protection they have provided. Since we got into this "war" after 9/11, not one single attack has succeeded on US soil. That speaks for itself. This is in no way an "unjustifiable war". Funny how democrats came up with that, even though we were all unanamous that we needed to retaliate.
PS- there are NO LIES. No one has proven any lies to this point. But there is a thread here that talks about the links between Hussien and Al Queida. So maybe the problem is people don't really understand what is going on? You come here claiming lies and inuendo, but everything that we have for proof (towers in rubble, substantiated links, other countries substantiating WMD etc) is ignored. Do you really think other countries with their intellegence is lieing as well? Stop listening to the democratic bias, they are leading you astray.

So on the one hand to Force Chist-like Worship on people and then to not act Christlike in dealing with other nations of this world make one a Hypocrite and makes one's position of power illegitimate.

Who is forcing? Atheist beliefs are being "forced" into students, but no one is crying about that.
No one is forcing kids to pray...just allow those that believe to partake if they wish. (AGAIN...NO ONE IS FORCING)

In other words, Don't in one breath be all gung-ho about killing some Arabs, then try in the next breath to tell me about how th declining morals in our country are directly related to no organized prayer in Public Schools.

Well, in one breath, I am saying the protection of the USA is absolutely worth it. You should be thankful, and on the other hand the declining morals of this country is getting worse and worse. The prayer in school debate is just another way of stamping out God.
When you put your false over tones to it, it makes no sense. We are not in this war because of lies. We are in this war because we were attacked. We are in this war because we KNOW they have WMD. After all, we supposedly sold them to Iraq...so OF COURSE they have WMD. Doing the democratic dance of "they lied wahhh, wahhh, waaaah" just means you don't have all the info.
So I challenge you, to give me actual PROOF (not hearsay, or hypothesis but concrete proof) of lies given by the Bush administration. (I'll save you the time and tell you there isn't any. Just democrats saying their is, but no proof)

The declining morals of this country and the fact that world is less and less trustworthy, with crime up despite the fact that technology is outstanding, shows us that God is an afterthought in this country.
Even at worst, for arguments sake, let's say there is no God. What's the harm in teaching him? We teach Santa Claus, we allow our children to watch blues clues, or listen to the Wiggles group. But we can't for a second allow them to be taught the good teaching of loving one another, and how to treat others as instructed in the bible? That makes no sense. Teaching God is a wonderful thing for ANY child. So why are people so gung ho about ensuring it never be uttered? Probably because Satan has a strong hold on them.
Hey, to each his own, but getting rid of God will be a mistake that each person that supports will have to pay for. On Earth and off it.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by jsarno
What is "not very Christ like" is the COMPLETE ABSENCE of God in the schools. They do not in any way teach Christ, even though (for instance) B.C. (before Christ) is used in every day lingo.

About the war. first and foremost, we are being protected. We were attacked and that caused a reaction from us...don't forget this as sooo many of you have. We would not be in this situation had we not been attacked. If we were not doing anything, I'd bet a billion dollars other attacks would have happened on our soil. We should be thanking them for the protection they have provided. Since we got into this "war" after 9/11, not one single attack has succeeded on US soil. That speaks for itself. This is in no way an "unjustifiable war". Funny how democrats came up with that, even though we were all unanamous that we needed to retaliate.
PS- there are NO LIES. No one has proven any lies to this point. But there is a thread here that talks about the links between Hussien and Al Queida. So maybe the problem is people don't really understand what is going on? You come here claiming lies and inuendo, but everything that we have for proof (towers in rubble, substantiated links, other countries substantiating WMD etc) is ignored. Do you really think other countries with their intellegence is lieing as well? Stop listening to the democratic bias, they are leading you astray.

[b]

Who is forcing? Atheist beliefs are being "forced" into students, but no one is crying about that.
No one is forcing kids to pray...just allow those that believe to partake if they wish. (AGAIN...NO ONE IS FORCING)

[b]

Well, in one breath, I am saying the protection of the USA is absolutely worth it. You should be thankful, and on the other hand the declining morals of this country is getting worse and worse. The prayer in school debate is just another way of stamping out God.
When you put your false over tones to it, it makes no sense. We are not in this war because of lies. We are in this war because we were attacked. We are in this war because we KNOW they have WMD. After all, we supposedly sold them to Iraq...so OF COURSE they have WMD. Doing the democratic dance of "they lied wahhh, wahhh, waaaah" just means you don't have all the info.
So I challenge you, to give me actual PROOF (not hearsay, or hypothesis but concrete proof) of lies given by the Bush administration. (I'll save you the time and tell you there isn't any. Just democrats saying their is, but no proof)

The declining morals of this country and the fact that world is less and less trustworthy, with crime up despite the fact that technology is outstanding, shows us that God is an afterthought in this country.
Even at worst, for arguments sake, let's say there is no God. What's the harm in teaching him? We teach Santa Claus, we allow our children to watch blues clues, or listen to the Wiggles group. But we can't for a second allow them to be taught the good teaching of loving one another, and how to treat others as instructed in the bible? That makes no sense. Teaching God is a wonderful thing for ANY child. So why are people so gung ho about ensuring it never be uttered? Probably because Satan has a strong hold on them.
Hey, to each his own, but getting rid of God will be a mistake that each person that supports will have to pay for. On Earth and off it.

Why can't we teach all the fine lessons about loving one another etc. without supporting a particular religion? I beleive all that stuff but do not beleive the Catholic Church is "the way". Why not teach about God in church and leave it at that?

[BigCountry]

What for example, is a Bhudist (sp?) kid supposed to do in this situation?

[jsarno]

Originally posted by BigCountry
What for example, is a Bhudist (sp?) kid supposed to do in this situation?

Have a moment of silence to reflect on his religion or maybe school work, or reflect on how Bush is a great president :D

Like I said waaaay back, as long as no one is FORCED, it should be allowed.
It's not like they are asking for the national anthem to be sung, then all pray to God outloud. It's just askign that if a group prefers to pray that they be allowed to gather and do so. No one is forcing a thing on any other religion.
It does not harm a single soul to allow that. In fact it helps teach morals etc. No one is TEACHING bible in school. All they are asking for is being allowed to pray. Not an unreasonable request. If a jewish kid can ask for a kosher meal, a christian should be allowed to pray.

[Keino]

What does 9/11 have to do with the War in Iraq? War on Terror, completely just. War vs. Iraq. NOT. Jsarno you are a piece of work. It has been proven over and over again by Spence and others that This Administration lied to get us inot this War. Why should I be thankful again? More Americans have died since El Presidente has proclaimed victory than when we initially started the action. As for betting on other attacks, please, pure speculation. Im sure attacks we don't know about were prevented before the 9/11 tragedy. If we KNOW they had WMD's why have we failed to produce them? You ask me for proof, yet you cannot prove anything that supports your contentions (Link to Saddam and 9/11, Proof of WMD's that we allegedly KNOW about).

Back to Prayer in schools, why is it necessary to have a sanctioned Prayer time? Why can't students who want to pray, simply bow their head prior to class starting. There is nothing in any school system preventing Kids who want to pray from doing so. I said many a prayer in school (usually before a test I didn't study for) and did not need the Teacher or a school administration to sanction it.

WTF is wrong with Blues Clues? It teaches kids how to critically think. There is no religion being taught and on shows that deal with Holidays they cover holiday that not only Christians celebrate but other cultures/religions as well. Case in pioint, on the Winter Holiday show, they teach somehting about Christmas (It's true meaning...Birth of Chritst) but also Hannukah and Kwanza (which I happen to celebrate). Whats wrong with celebrating Cultural Diversity?
I suggest that if you make a claim about something, don't regurgitate what you hear from one of your conservative Spinmeisters, but actually investigate it yourself.

Nobody is advocating getting rid of God, what I and others are saying is to let people Worship God in the manner in which they feel is appropriate for their lives. To force kids to Pray at a certian time doesn't somehow put morals back into our society and any arguments/claims to the contrary are Self-Serving and Mis-leading.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Keino
What does 9/11 have to do with the War in Iraq? War on Terror, completely just. War vs. Iraq. NOT. Jsarno you are a piece of work. It has been proven over and over again by Spence and others that This Administration lied to get us inot this War. Why should I be thankful again? More Americans have died since El Presidente has proclaimed victory than when we initially started the action. As for betting on other attacks, please, pure speculation. Im sure attacks we don't know about were prevented before the 9/11 tragedy. If we KNOW they had WMD's why have we failed to produce them? You ask me for proof, yet you cannot prove anything that supports your contentions (Link to Saddam and 9/11, Proof of WMD's that we allegedly KNOW about).

What has spence proved? NOTHING. All he (and other DEMOCRATS) have shown is that he was bitten by the democratic bias bug. I applaud his effort, but it's always based on opinion from the democratic party, and not one shred of proof supporting the allegations of lies. The burden of proof is on you young man. MORE THAN ONE COUNTRY HAS SAID WHAT BUSH HAS BEEN SAYING. Yet it has not been disproven, and you are not providing proof now...case closed. Stop listening to your own lies.
Again, go to another thread here about the links to hussien and al queida...it has already been provided to you. A link has already been provided to you about the fact that the USA sold WMD to Iraq years ago (which was a surprise to me to hear). Is that not enough proof for you? Yet you keep rambling about LIES. WHAT LIES? PROVE LIES! YOU are making accusations about lies...well prove it. PROVE THE LIES. (I know you can't, cause there aren't any).

Back to Prayer in schools, why is it necessary to have a sanctioned Prayer time? Why can't students who want to pray, simply bow their head prior to class starting.

I'd be fine with that. That's allowing time to pray, that's ALL they are asking for.

There is nothing in any school system preventing Kids who want to pray from doing so.

Yes there is. Many students have been asked to stop because of separation of church and state. It gets "prevented" every day.

I said many a prayer in school (usually before a test I didn't study for) and did not need the Teacher or a school administration to sanction it.

It really gets old when people don't listen. Who is saying to force you, or be sanctioned? They should be allowed that time to gather as a group, or moment of silence or whatever.

I suggest that if you make a claim about something, don't regurgitate what you hear from one of your conservative Spinmeisters, but actually investigate it yourself.

What the hell are you talking about? What does Christmas have to do with anything? If anything it should show you how willing our society is to get rid of God. A lot of kids don't even realize it's the celebration of Christ's birth, why is that?

Nobody is advocating getting rid of God, what I and others are saying is to let people Worship God in the manner in which they feel is appropriate for their lives.

I agree with that comment.
So why punish the christians and not let them pray because it's a school? If someone broke out in a prayer that wasn't christian, would it matter? They are not forcing anyone, so why is it even an issue.

To force kids to Pray at a certian time doesn't somehow put morals back into our society and any arguments/claims to the contrary are Self-Serving and Mis-leading.

Again, you're not listening...WHO IS FORCING?

[Keino]

Jsarno Wrote: "It really gets old when people don't listen. Who is saying to force you, or be sanctioned? They should be allowed that time to gather as a group, or moment of silence or whatever. "

What is sanctioned Prayer? Set aside time to allow kids to pray. Im saying that is uneccesary. Kids who want to pray don't need the school to set aside times to so. Silence isn't required for God to hear your prayers. What You are advocating is Sanctioned prayer.

As for what Spence has proven or disproven, I relaize that you hate hearing people bash your murdering, election stealing president, but....He provided you with numerous quotes that were Bald faced lies as well as dates from various members of the Administration from Dick Cheney, to Condi and the Man himself.
I was watching when Bush stated as fact that Iraq was buying Uranium in Africa to build up it's Nuclear Program (State of the Union Address) which has since been proven false. Your turn. Show me where we have FOUND WMD's that we alledgedly KNOW about as you claim.

[Keino]

One more thing.....JSARNO WROTE "What the hell are you talking about? What does Christmas have to do with anything? If anything it should show you how willing our society is to get rid of God. A lot of kids don't even realize it's the celebration of Christ's birth, why is that?"

What I was referring to was your claim that Blues Clues (A kids show) somehow fosters Godlessness. I was simply Illustrating that such a claim is ridiculous at best and used the Holiday show in which they teach Kids how a few religions celebrate the Winter Holidays. The Emphasis being on the Religious Aspects, not the Secular aspects.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Keino
One more thing.....JSARNO WROTE "What the hell are you talking about? What does Christmas have to do with anything? If anything it should show you how willing our society is to get rid of God. A lot of kids don't even realize it's the celebration of Christ's birth, why is that?"

What I was referring to was your claim that Blues Clues (A kids show) somehow fosters Godlessness. I was simply Illustrating that such a claim is ridiculous at best and used the Holiday show in which they teach Kids how a few religions celebrate the Winter Holidays. The Emphasis being on the Religious Aspects, not the Secular aspects.

No, no, no...I'm not saying that...sorry that it seemed I implied that. Just saying that's what our kids watch...there is nothing wrong with the wiggles group either. Just that those things are so easily allowed.
This is an exact quote of what I said:
Even at worst, for arguments sake, let's say there is no God. What's the harm in teaching him? We teach Santa Claus, we allow our children to watch blues clues, or listen to the Wiggles group. But we can't for a second allow them to be taught the good teaching of loving one another, and how to treat others as instructed in the bible?
Again...what is the harm in teaching him something "good". If we use the santa theme, Santa is a lie made up by humans, but we'd rather lie to our kids than teach them God, or allow someone else to teach them God. WHat's the harm?

About your previous post. You're not following me. I don't need to prove a thing...YOU DO. You are claiming lies. I already told you about the fact that WE SOLD THEM WMD. So it's pretty much a fact they have them. Just because they didn't open thier doors and show them to us doesn't mean they don't have them. They are terrorists you know...they are not going to comply with everything we say. (don't forget we gave them MONTHS to hide the weapons thanks to the UN dragging their feet.)

Also, telling a lie and being inaccurate on a subject are two different things. If other countries believe it to be true as we do, it's not a lie. I'm not positive on the uranium thing, (which was found / substantiated in IRAN)
I just find it odd, you'd rather believe terrorists than believe what the Bush administration with all our intellegence (regarded best in teh world) and other countries intellegence such as british intellegence tell you.

OK, why is setting aside time to pray to the almighty so "unneccesary"? While kids are praying quietly, others (non believers) could be observing a moment of silence, or reflecting on their school work, or whatever. So what's the problem?
I would 100% agree if other religions were being forced to be "christians". As much as I am sure christianity is the way, I would see that as wrong since our country was founded on religious freedom. But who cares as long as they are not being forced?

[Keino]

Lets agree to disagree on the lie issues. It's been discussed ad nauseum, but I contend that Spence, through his post in which he provided a series of quotes exposed some of the lies that the Administration has told us, the American People. One more thing on the topic and then I'll yield.......I am fully aware there is a difference between lying and being inaccurate. What I cannot excuse, however, is using an inaccuracy as a justification to commit American Lives and Resourcesto a Military Action. As Commander in Chief, there is a DUTY to verify facts. He heard what he wanted and ran with it. At best, he was Uninformed (and Inexcusable offense in and of itself), but I happen to believe that the CIA told him that the reports were not from a trusted source, so in my opinion He lied.

For the record, My daughter doesn't believe in Santa Claus, because I will not foster a belief in something false, so I agree with you. I don't believe in teaching lies. The reason the set aside time is uneccesary is because it is not the job the government (in this case Public Schools) to teach/sponsor/sanction "Prayer time". Kids who want to pray are already free to do so. Home and Church are the places to worship, school is the place to learn. We live in a Secular society. Some don't like that fact, I happen to like it very much. I don't want schools teaching my daughter about God as that is my job and I don't want schools forcing my daughter to pray, when they need to be teaching her how to read, write and solve algabraic equations......

[dukeuch]

Sarno:

You clearly think that, at worst, there no harm in teaching about God in school. Would you support an equal amount of time teaching about Buddha, Vishnu, Allah, etc. and the religions which hold their particular dieties? How would you feel if at the appropriate time of the school day, prayer mats were rolled out for the Islamic students so they bow to the East (my apology if I'm getting the ceremony wrong, but I think everyone knows what I'm getting at) while the other students "take a moment of silence"?

Again I ask anyone who supports prayer in school; why is it necessary? Is there not enough opportunity for you to handle you kid's religious education at the church of your choice and at home?

[RedskinsDave]

"For the record, My daughter doesn't believe in Santa Claus, because I will not foster a belief in something false"

That's sad. Are you trying to save some cash on the whole Tooth Fairy thing?

[Keino]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
"For the record, My daughter doesn't believe in Santa Claus, because I will not foster a belief in something false"

That's sad. Are you trying to save some cash on the whole Tooth Fairy thing?

Why is it sad? Why set a child up for a huge disappointment when they find out the truth. My 4 year old understands that Santa Claus is Mommy and Daddy. This is not about being Miserly, it's about teaching my child reality so that she is equipped to deal with harsher realities when she faces them.

I will not lie to my child. If you wish to teach your children lies and foster a belief in something false, then more power to you. And I'll thank you not to make sweeping indictments about how I raise my child because it doesn't necessarily jibe with your value system.

[RedskinsDave]

You really think that believing in Santa Claus is going to adversely affect a child and that not believing will somehow prepare your child better for life? Get a grip.

Don't go to Disney World because if your daughter gets excited to see Mickey or Goofy, you're gonna have to tell her the harsh reality that it's really a person in a costume. How is it that you've completely missed out on the fun of Santa? Hell, I have Jewish friends that let their kids believe because it's fun.

I didn't mention anything about your value system but now that you mention it, it looks like you've gone off the deep end with it. Must be a barrel of laughs in your house.

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Keino
Lets agree to disagree on the lie issues. It's been discussed ad nauseum

I totally agree. No matter what either of us say, we won't sway our opinions.

So don't worry...I don't think any less of you! :lol1: :D

[jsarno]

Originally posted by Keino
Why is it sad? Why set a child up for a huge disappointment when they find out the truth. My 4 year old understands that Santa Claus is Mommy and Daddy. This is not about being Miserly, it's about teaching my child reality so that she is equipped to deal with harsher realities when she faces them.

I will not lie to my child. If you wish to teach your children lies and foster a belief in something false, then more power to you. And I'll thank you not to make sweeping indictments about how I raise my child because it doesn't necessarily jibe with your value system.

I don't think it's fair of some of you to judge him too harshly on this stance. It has some merit.
I remember I was sooooo pissed when I found out Santa was not real, pissed at my parents for lieing. As I grew older, I was fine with it since it is (seemingly) and world wide lie.
But to enjoy Christmas and all it's splendor but just leave out the lie that is Santa doesn't seem like a bad thing. Santa just represents good, but if he can suppliment Santa for himself, what's the harm?

I'm pretty sure when my kid is born, I'll celebrate the santa issue, but it's made me think a little if it's really neccesary to include the lieing part, just make it to where the child understands what Santa is and what he stands for. I don't know...it's definitely a question to mull over.

[Keino]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
You really think that believing in Santa Claus is going to adversely affect a child and that not believing will somehow prepare your child better for life? Get a grip.

Don't go to Disney World because if your daughter gets excited to see Mickey or Goofy, you're gonna have to tell her the harsh reality that it's really a person in a costume. How is it that you've completely missed out on the fun of Santa? Hell, I have Jewish friends that let their kids believe because it's fun.

I didn't mention anything about your value system but now that you mention it, it looks like you've gone off the deep end with it. Must be a barrel of laughs in your house.

I want my daughter to TRUST me. I cannot earn that trust if I lie to her. Seeing Disney Characters is a Different issue. We as a society don't teach our children that Goofy visits us every year and climbs down the chimney to deliver gifts to all the World's Children. She can watch cartoons with disney and see Disney Characters and in that way develop a bond with said characters. She has had her picture taken with Santa at the mall, she just doesn't believe that Santa brings her gifts.
My daughter loves Chuck E Cheese. BUT.She knows that the it's a person inside a costume. Children are much smarter then you are giving them credit for.
YES I do believe that the 2 people who children trust the most will adversley effect a child by lying to them. Jsarno's example of being upset, hurt and angry when he found out Santa wasn't real is exactly the hurt and anger our TRUTHFULLNESS seeks to avoid.

Deep End? I would say that people who advocate Lying to their kids are the ones off the deep end. Once again, I must Say: How I raise My Friggin Child should be no Concern of Yours. Keep your Sweeping Indictments to yourself
As long as my daughter doesn't spoil the Myth of Santa Claus to her peers there should not be a problem with me teaching my daughter the Truth from the beginning.
Just like My daughter will not grow up believing that Columbus Discovered America. Another Myth. You cannot claim discovery of a place that has people living there............

[RedskinsDave]

You're the one who hopped on the proverbial high horse and started the talk about your daughter and Santa Claus. Don't give out that kind of information if you aren't prepared to have it commented on.

I was raised believing in Santa Claus and there is no one I trust more than my parents. I guess I should hate them for "lying" to me. :rolleyes:

If using a make believe character to spice up Christmas will prevent a child from trusting their parents, then that relationship has problems that no one can help.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Hell, I have Jewish friends that let their kids believe because it's fun.

Not that this has anything to do with prayer in school, but I must really be off the boat regarding religion. I didn't think Santa had anything to do with ANY religion, so I am not sure of the significance of your reference to your Jewish friends. Where does Santa line up in the Holy Trinity?

Serously though, Dave, I am assuming you are in support of prayer in school (if not, I apologize), and you are pretty good at responding, so I'll ask you directly a question I can't get an answer to: Why is it necessary to have prayer in school? Don't folks have enough opportunity to use the church of their choice and their home to foster their kid's prayers? Why is school necessary too?

[Keino]

Well Dave you are entitled to your opinion, but please don't take comments out of context. Jsarno made a statement that I happenned to agree with involving Santa Claus at which point I used a personal example to illustrate my agreement.

You clearly disagree with how I raise my child, your right, but the comments ranging from me being Off the deep end to being Cheap were personal slights and assumptions made off of one personal tidbit I shared. Not called for and not necessary. Furthermore, I believe that they were intentionally personal because you disagree with my politics.
I've had this stance regarding Santa for quite some time. Most people don't agree with mainly, because like you, were raised believing in Santa, But never have I encountered someone who chose to characterize me as Insane or cheap as a result. I don't believe in Lying to ones kids, no matter how small the lie is....why is that so hard for you to understand?

How does a Mythical figure spice up Christmas? My child seems to be thrilled to death getting so many gifts and decorating the Tree, that she doesn't need some Fat Dude in a Red suit to add to the excitement.

So for the 3rd time, I'll Thank you for Keeping your sweeping indictments to yourself.

[RedskinsDave]

Santa, as in Santa Claus, as in St. Nick. You really didn't think he had a christian affiliation? My point about my Jewish friend is that they do the Santa Claus thing even though they obviously do not celebrate Christmas.

As far as prayer in school, I don't care all that much. The part of the issue that bothers me is the fact that, in the schools where they did pray, it was one yahoo who got it canned. I don't think anyone was ever held down and made to pray. "Say the Hail Mary!! Say it!!" (in my best Sam Kinison). I don't see why it needs to be there either and agree that the home and church are more appropriate places. I mostly went to Catholic school though so it was always there for me.

[RedskinsDave]

Sean, I could care less how you raise your kid. The "cheap" comment was intended to be funny anyways. You're the one who made it some big issue in your next post. Your righteousness got to me, so I responded. I don't think your child will be anymore prepared for the harshness of the world because she knows Santa doesn't exist. If you do, well then good luck. Also, you continuing to call it a "lie" is a bit hyperbolic for me.

[jsarno]

I spoke with my wife at lunch about Santa and how we would raise the child. I said I didn't want to lie to him or her (still don't know the sex yet), she said "it's not lieing, I beleive in Santa. Santa lives in everyone of us." I understood what she was getting at. It's more evident to me know that she said it since I still get gifts labelled from "SANTA".
I don't think Keino is doing anything wrong or even slightly hurting the child, if anything I feel he's building a lasting friendship and trust factor. The child won't think "well they are going to tell me what they think is best for me", the childwill think "they are going to tell me the truth free from worldly views". I have to agree with the latter on that one.
I appreciate your view Keino (don't get used to that) ;) it made me think about how to handle certain situations, and I thank you for that.

[Keino]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Sean, I could care less how you raise your kid. The "cheap" comment was intended to be funny anyways. You're the one who made it some big issue in your next post. Your righteousness got to me, so I responded. I don't think your child will be anymore prepared for the harshness of the world because she knows Santa doesn't exist. If you do, well then good luck. Also, you continuing to call it a "lie" is a bit hyperbolic for me.

Well We clearly had a misunderstanding. I was offended by the original post intended to be a joke (Next time try a smiley or somethin to indicate that you are joking).
Perhaps you don't see how Shileding my child from what I perceive as a lie will help her better deal with the harsh realities of life, but I do and as her parent it's Mine and my wife's opinion on such matters that count.

The bottomline is that Im trying to foster an environment in my household where Open and Honest discussion can take place with her. I feel very strongly that laying the foundation now while she is young will make it easier when we have to deal with "Teenage" issues.
I too remember the resentment I felt when I discovered Santa wasn't real, and in no way do I feel I cannot trust my parents as a result, but I also feel that Kids do harbor resentment and express that resentment subconciously. Who knows if my theory is right, and who knows if it will be Me and her mother that she comes to when seeking guidance as a teenager, but it is something we both feel pretty strongly about.

[RedskinsDave]

Trust me, open and honest discussion happens in homes where Santa exists for the kids. That's a fact, not my opinion. I'll pay close attention to the next Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders to see if this traumatic event will be known as Santa Separation or if they'll just add it to PTSD .

[jsarno]

I don't see the big deal Redskinsdave...who cares if he teaches a kid about a FICTIONAL character? It is in NO WAY hurting the child.
Like my wife says "Santa lives within us all". But telling a kid that he comes down the chimeny to bring presents to all the good boys and girls was made up so that parents had an added incentive to make thier children behave.
You haven't even tried to look at this issue with an open mind. I haven't always agreed with Keino, and I don't even know if I agree here, but I applaud his open mind in this case, and his explanations. Just because people have done this "tradition" for hundreds of years doesn't make it correct. And Kieno is not even telling you that you are wrong, just that it's wrong for his family. There is nothing wrong with that.

[RedskinsDave]

I only care because he keeps presenting it as he is being honest with his child and other parents are lying to their kids. He also makes it sound as if his child will be better prepared for life and will trust him as a parent more because of that. I think that's bunk. His intention is great, I admire that. His method is naive at best.

[jsarno]

Well, I guess we all have opinions. :D

I don't think that one specific case of santa would do that trick, but I think a series of specific cases would indeed help the child be better prepared for life and be more trusting of parents. I just think they would be more inclined to be trusting if the parents were open and honest about these things.
This is not saying that teaching Santa will make your kids think you're a liar...just that I feel that a stronger bond would be made if these stories were explained up front.

It may be nieve, but it's an honest effort. Now-a-days, that honest effort is seldom seen.

[RedskinsDave]

Now you're doing the same thing. It's called make believe. That's it, no deeper issue, no great lie and no trust being violated. Santa doesn't exist as some great coup by parents to pull one over on their kids. HE EXISTS FOR FUN, same as the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and others. It's not lying.

[Skinzaholic]

I am amazed at how a thread about whether or not admitting praye in school was admissable has evolved into a thread about Santa Clause and parantal procedures.


I love you guys!

[Spence]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
I am amazed at how a thread about whether or not admitting praye in school was admissable has evolved into a thread about Santa Clause and parantal procedures. Amen! [That's my concession to the pro-prayer crowd. :D ]

[Spence]

Just for the record, I love Santa Claus.

[jporterweb]

Sorry this is off topic, but this I had to comment on...

Originally posted by Keino
What surprises me the most is that the people who are so Faithful are the same people wo support our Murdering President. That's what I don't get at all.....To me Bush represents the Devil himself.

I hope you remember this comment when a wuss of a president gets into office and WTCII happens. When the world is crying that something needs to be done. What's sad is that we knew about Bin Laden, when CLINTON was in office, and the only thing he did was launch a few (voice of Gary Sinese in Air Force One) Smart...Bombs....(end voice of Gary Sinese). Then 2 years after he's out, boom. Clinton could've taken care of Bin Laden when we knew he did the first WTC attack, but we didn't. He just let it go.

[Keino]

Please. The primary objective of the War on Teror was to get Bin Laden and that hasn't been accomplished while this President is TRYING to do it. In fact, one could make the argument that we went after a non-threatining Iraq to deflect attention from our Failure in Afghanistan.

No Matter how hard you try, you cannot lay the blame of 9/11 at the doorstep of Mr. Clinton. He wasn't in office when it happenned, he was not responsible for the numerous intelligence failures, nor did he get on the plane with a box cutter.

[Spence]

Come on, JPORTER, that's not fair. Clinton went after Bin Laden, but--as I think we've all seen--he's not easy to capture or kill. Getting Bin Laden would have required an invasion of Afghanistan and there was no way any U.S. president could have done that until after 9/11/01. And again, as we've seen, even invading Afghanistan has not done the trick.

The reason Clinton didn't get Bin Laden is the same reason Bush has not gotten Bin Laden: the man is clever and very good at disappearing into the wilderness of the Hindu Kush, which no armies [not even the legions of Alexander the Great] have been able to conquer and subdue.

[RedskinsDave]

Originally posted by Spence
Just for the record, I love Santa Claus.

Hey we agree on something.

[RedskinsDave]

Damn it Spence, we agree again. I don't blame Clinton for not getting Bin Laden.

But admit it, if Bin Laden were a nasty redneck from Arkansas or a fat girl from California, Clinton certainly would've found him. :p

[Keino]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
I only care because he keeps presenting it as he is being honest with his child and other parents are lying to their kids. He also makes it sound as if his child will be better prepared for life and will trust him as a parent more because of that. I think that's bunk. His intention is great, I admire that. His method is naive at best.

I really thought we had put this issue to bed. I mean I even ignored your latest personal slight/smart ass remark about looking up in the psychiatric journal. Whether or not you think Im being Naive, or off-base or whatever, the point you don't seem to get is that it is Important to me and my wife. To me it's about a pattern of open an honest dialogue. I am not calling other parent's liars, only presenting what I do and my reasoning

I tend to view the world in Absoultes. If it's not true, then it is false. No gray area. Im not asking you to agree, but these holidays (Christmas and Easter) have nothing to do with the Make believe characters that have long since been associated with them. My daughter already understands that Christmas is a celebration of a very special Birthday, hence the gifts. We do not do Easter Bunny in my household either, nor do we do Tooth Fairy. In fact she has been told already that Easter is not about Easter baskets and Eggs, but rather that someone died for her. Whether she can fully grasp this yet remains to be seen. There is enough make-believe on Cartoon network to satisfy her need to be entertained and to help her develop imagination and countless books with fairy tales in them.
She isn't missing out, which was what you have been trying to imply since your first post. Im officially done with this aspect of the thread, as I never meant for it to evolve into a Santa thread, and am sorry I even shared that personal tidbit.

[Spence]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Damn it Spence, we agree again. I don't blame Clinton for not getting Bin Laden.

But admit it, if Bin Laden were a nasty redneck from Arkansas or a fat girl from California, Clinton certainly would've found him. :p Well, my support for Bill Clinton does not extend to his choice of floozies. The dude definitely has a Madonna/Whore complex. He marries this very smart, educated, sophisticated woman and then cheats on her with a small army of hosebags whose greatest ambition should be to get bleeped on the Jerry Springer Show.

Clinton has the sexual ethics of an alley cat, even his most ardent supporters acknowledge that. But I never voted for Bill Clinton the Model Husband, I voted for Bill Clinton the politician. I loved having the guy run the country, but I wouldn't want him dating my sister.

[Spence]

Originally posted by Keino
We do not do Easter Bunny in my household either, nor do we do Tooth Fairy. Hey, don't get me started on that Tooth Fairy. Money for teeth? Spaulding does not have a racket that good. Who is she sleeping with?

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by Spence
Come on, JPORTER, that's not fair. Clinton went after Bin Laden, but--as I think we've all seen--he's not easy to capture or kill. Getting Bin Laden would have required an invasion of Afghanistan and there was no way any U.S. president could have done that until after 9/11/01. And again, as we've seen, even invading Afghanistan has not done the trick.

The reason Clinton didn't get Bin Laden is the same reason Bush has not gotten Bin Laden: the man is clever and very good at disappearing into the wilderness of the Hindu Kush, which no armies [not even the legions of Alexander the Great] have been able to conquer and subdue.

Spence, it may not be fair, but there is no such thing as fair these days. You've taught me that. True, Bush did take us into Iraq and that's a different story. An a different wave he had been given information that turned out to be false. The administration admits the president had been given false information, yet everyone says that Bush is a lying bastard because he gave us the people that information. That's not fair, because he was given that information and he read what he had been told was true. The Stock Market is showing the same signs that it showed after the Reagan tax cuts that helped the market flourish. Yet the president doesn't know what he's doing. That's not fair, because no one is giving the cuts a chance to do what they were intended to do. The fact is, it's not fair to call Bush anything yet because we haven't given these things time to work. I know it's not fair to blame Clinton, that was my point. It may not be fair, but the fact remains. I just wish people would stop with comments like this.

Originally posted by Keino
What surprises me the most is that the people who are so Faithful are the same people wo support our Murdering President. That's what I don't get at all.....To me Bush represents the Devil himself.

[Spence]

JPRORTER, my advice is to not worry about what bothers you so much and just focus on telling it as fairly as you can. Whether I'm right or I'm wrong, that's what I try to do.

Your presentation of the facts about U.S. intelligence on Iraq needs a bit more flesh on it, however. As we know, the Bush admin received plenty of information that Iraq had little or no WMD and was no threat to its neighbors, but chose to ignore it. When the CIA told the admin something the admin did not want to hear, they stopped listening to the CIA and instead set up a body called the Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon to come up with intelligence that would find Iraq guilty.

Furthermore, we also know that Ambassador Joseph Wilson told the administration that the claim that Iraq was seeking yellowcake uranium in Niger was false, but Mr Bush made that accusation anyway, in his 2003 State of the Union address. [That was even after CIA Director George Tenet told the Bush admin in October 2002 NOT to make that accusation because the CIA knew it to be false.]

When Ambassador Wilson exposed this deception in an op-ed piece in the New York Times this past July, the Bush admin began a vicious whispering campaign against a man who had served both Republican and Democratic administrations for decades. It culminated with at least two members of the White House exposing the identity of Ambassador Wilson's wife, a woman named Victoria Plame, who is an operative for the Central Intelligence Agency. As you probably know, exposing the identity of active U.S. intelligence operatives is a felony and the Justice Department is now investigating the White House in this matter.

[Keino]

Originally posted by jporterweb
Spence, it may not be fair, but there is no such thing as fair these days. You've taught me that. True, Bush did take us into Iraq and that's a different story. An a different wave he had been given information that turned out to be false. The administration admits the president had been given false information, yet everyone says that Bush is a lying bastard because he gave us the people that information. That's not fair, because he was given that information and he read what he had been told was true. The Stock Market is showing the same signs that it showed after the Reagan tax cuts that helped the market flourish. Yet the president doesn't know what he's doing. That's not fair, because no one is giving the cuts a chance to do what they were intended to do. The fact is, it's not fair to call Bush anything yet because we haven't given these things time to work. I know it's not fair to blame Clinton, that was my point. It may not be fair, but the fact remains. I just wish people would stop with comments like this.

I would suggest you tell the families of the 6,000 innocents killed by this action over WMD's that have not showed up yet that it's not fair to labell the guy a murdering Devil.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by Spence
When Ambassador Wilson exposed this deception in an op-ed piece in the New York Times this past July, the Bush admin began a vicious whispering campaign against a man who had served both Republican and Democratic administrations for decades. It culminated with at least two members of the White House exposing the identity of Ambassador Wilson's wife, a woman named Victoria Plame, who is an operative for the Central Intelligence Agency. As you probably know, exposing the identity of active U.S. intelligence operatives is a felony and the Justice Department is now investigating the White House in this matter.

Last I saw, nothing had come out of this. Last thing I heard of course this was from my buddy Glenn Beck and we all know that he just talks for his own agenda because he really doesn't speak truth right? was that there may have been no CRIME commited at all. We don't know who did what in this case and it is not fair to those supposed individuals to Declare that they did anything wrong. If it is found that wrong-doing was done then yea, I'll drop my support for Bush. BUT ONLY if he is the one that initated the wrongdoing. However, I think this is a witchhunt to put a scandal onto the current administration. The Dems have been looking for it, and now they have it. Funny though, haven't heard a WORD about it in the last few weeks.

And Keino, ask the Iraqis, the 80-some percent who want us to be there and don't want us to leave if they think that Bush is a murdering devil. I'll try to find the story where 80-some percent of the Iraqis asked PRAISED the US for being there and hoped we wouldn't leave.

[RedskinsDave]

I think Ken Starr should find out who leaked her name. :o

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by Keino

I tend to view the world in Absoultes.


Keino... this is a profound statment that I would love to explore a bit further with you (and everyone else)... BUT I will open a new thread for that to prevent further congestion in this pie hole.

[Spence]

Originally posted by jporterweb
Last I saw, nothing had come out of this. Last thing I heard of course this was from my buddy Glenn Beck and we all know that he just talks for his own agenda because he really doesn't speak truth right? was that there may have been no CRIME commited at all. We don't know who did what in this case and it is not fair to those supposed individuals to Declare that they did anything wrong. If it is found that wrong-doing was done then yea, I'll drop my support for Bush. BUT ONLY if he is the one that initated the wrongdoing. However, I think this is a witchhunt to put a scandal onto the current administration. The Dems have been looking for it, and now they have it. Funny though, haven't heard a WORD about it in the last few weeks. Robert Novak, the conservative political columnist to whom Ms Plame's identity was leaked, has said over and over again he got the information from two senior White House officials. Five other Washington, D.C.-based journalists have also said they were told Ms. Plame's identity by one or two senior White House officials. The question is not whether a crime was committed, the questions is who committed. Clearly, it was committed by two senior White House officials. Which ones, is being investigated by the Justice Department. I was speaking with several Republican members of Congress earlier this week and right now the prime suspect is Lewis "Scooter" Libby, chief of staff to Dick Cheney.

[Spence]

Originally posted by jporterweb
And Keino, ask the Iraqis, the 80-some percent who want us to be there and don't want us to leave if they think that Bush is a murdering devil. I'll try to find the story where 80-some percent of the Iraqis asked PRAISED the US for being there and hoped we wouldn't leave. Yeah, I'd like to see your documentation for that, too, JPORTER. Consider: What is wrong with those Iraqis? The United States and Britain freed them from Saddam Hussein and, sure, the vast majority say that’s great: a poll released last week finds that 62 percent think liberty is worth the hardship. But they don’t much like their liberators. The same Gallup poll shows their preferred country by far is—get this—France. And their favorite leader? Jacques Chirac! The French president’s approval rating tops George W. Bush’s by 13 points in Baghdad. Tony Blair couldn’t get elected dogcatcher. Source (http://www.msnbc.com/news/972988.asp) And consider: A survey by Iraq's Center for Research and Strategic Studies released this week showed 67 percent of Iraqis saw the foreign forces as occupying powers, up from 46 percent in a survey conducted shortly after the war.

Fifteen percent considered the coalition troops as liberating forces, down from 43 percent six months ago.

The organizer of the survey is a think tank set up by a group of Iraqi professors after Saddam's fall. They polled 1,620 Iraqis in seven cities from September 28 to October 10.
Source (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031025/ts_nm/iraq_dc_3)