Campbell on Campbell

[NamVet4]

The situation and environment certainly matter when it comes to young QBs. Whereas Peyton Manning had the same offensive coordinator for the first 11 seasons of his career, Redskins quarterback Jason Campbell played for four different coordinators in his first four years.

And in Campbell's case this season, there's a lot more than just Xs and Os at play — confidence, steadiness and managing what's upstairs will matter even more. It was made no secret that the Redskins were not only suitors in the Jay Cutler sweepstakes, but also very interested in USC quarterback Mark Sanchez, now a Jets rookie.

Campbell's dealt with a media maelstrom surrounding Washington's offseason quarterback passes. A few months back, the five-year veteran admitted that the Redskins' attempts to acquire other quarterbacks over the offseason made him feel "like a bad quarterback or someone who's not wanted."

"You have to try to turn negative things into something positive," Campbell said. "Keep yourself moving forward. I used it all as motivation. I'm at a stage in my life where I just want to enjoy playing football, try to do everything I can to be successful and take my game to the next level."


Courtesy of In the game of life, there are few jobs considered more glamorous than "NFL quarterback."
(http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9978952/NFL-pressure-cooker-the-true-test-of-young-QBs)

[BurgundyNGold]

Less talkie. More 12 play drives resulting in TDs.

[oldskinfan]

For all you Terps out there, you could argue even Shaun Hill has better numbers than JC.

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AlPmvZ0G8bCvz9d.yLrQdPpDubYF?slug=ms-ninerscamp082509&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

[dj_stouty]

I didn't realize Jason had 4 offensive coordinators in 4 years. News to me. That explains everything!

[shally]

Less talkie. More 12 play drives resulting in TDs.

+1

no more excuses permitted going into his 5th season..

[silverspring]

I didn't realize Jason had 4 offensive coordinators in 4 years. News to me. That explains everything!

The negative way to look at this is that we tried to fit Jason into 4 different offenses and he failed at all of them.

[Farmer Ted]

I didn't realize Jason had 4 offensive coordinators in 4 years. News to me. That explains everything!

I wonder when they're going to stop propagating that myth. You write it enough, and after while not only does everyone believe it's true, but they believe it's the reason (excuse) that Jason hasn't developed into a top flight starting quarterback.

[dj_stouty]

I wonder when they're going to stop propagating that myth. You write it enough, and after while not only does everyone believe it's true, but they believe it's the reason (excuse) that Jason hasn't developed into a top flight starting quarterback.

Lavar had 4-5 different DCs in the beginning of his career. He didn't excel in top form with all of them; but he made the most of each one. When the DC wanted him in coverage, he intercepted the ball and deflected passes. When the DC wanted him playing the run, he racked up tons of tackles and forced fumbles. When the DC wanted him to put his hand in the dirt and pass-rush, he led all NFL LBs in sacks.

Good players get it done regardless.

[Farmer Ted]

It's a myth because he actually had 3 OC's in his first four years, and he had the same one for the first two years that he started (Al Saunders). The JC defenders/loyalists always seem to ignore that, and spin the story in a convenient way that gives JC a built-in excuse for not excelling. They forget that he started 19 games in Saunders' system (edit: oops, it was 20 starts), and that he didn't actually show any improvement as time went on. This is is second shot at a year 2 in a pro offense. I hope he does better this time around.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Lavar had 4-5 different DCs in the beginning of his career. He didn't excel in top form with all of them; but he made the most of each one. When the DC wanted him in coverage, he intercepted the ball and deflected passes. When the DC wanted him playing the run, he racked up tons of tackles and forced fumbles. When the DC wanted him to put his hand in the dirt and pass-rush, he led all NFL LBs in sacks.

Good players get it done regardless.

This could be an interesting debate, but isn't Lavar generally viewed as a disappointment for us? Perhaps not the best example.

[colkurtz]

JC has been an below average QB for his 5 seasons. My prediction is that when he leaves here he will become a journeyman backup QB wherever he goes.

There are young rookies who succeed almost right from the beginning. JC is not a franchise QB but will get his chance to succeed well into his fifth season. How many others get that long? Most QB get 20-30 games to succeed (Ramsey, Shuler).

JC will get more time to succeed than the VAST number of QB, BECAUSE he's had so many OC's. Yet he keeps using that as an excuse when his QB rating this PS is in the 40s.

I hope JC succeeds but I don't think he will. Zorn seems happy to go down with that ship.

[shally]

Lavar had 4-5 different DCs in the beginning of his career. He didn't excel in top form with all of them; but he made the most of each one. When the DC wanted him in coverage, he intercepted the ball and deflected passes. When the DC wanted him playing the run, he racked up tons of tackles and forced fumbles. When the DC wanted him to put his hand in the dirt and pass-rush, he led all NFL LBs in sacks.

Good players get it done regardless.

+1

an excellent analogy, even though the positions differ a lot

[shally]

JC has been an below average QB for his 5 seasons. My prediction is that when he leaves here he will become a journeyman backup QB wherever he goes.

There are young rookies who succeed almost right from the beginning. JC is not a franchise QB but will get his chance to succeed well into his fifth season. How many others get that long? Most QB get 20-30 games to succeed (Ramsey, Shuler).

JC will get more time to succeed than the VAST number of QB, BECAUSE he's had so many OC's. Yet he keeps using that as an excuse when his QB rating this PS is in the 40s.

I hope JC succeeds but I don't think he will. Zorn seems happy to go down with that ship.

Zorn really didnt have a choice.. he was hired SPECIFICALLY with an eye towards developing Campbell. sure he could have said, "NO" but then he likely wouldnt have been hired as OC, much less HC in the first place..

i will also tell you, even though i cannot prove it, that i bet ZORN WAS PART OF THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS TO TRY AND REPLACE CAMPBELL THIS OFF SEASON. i am not saying he inititated it, or even pushed strongly for it,
but i will bet you that Zorn was beyond okay with it..

when it didnt happen, of course, he went back to Campbell and spun it as positively as possible. but i cannot believe that all zorn knew about it was what he read about it in the media..

it will be interesting to see what happens this year. if Zorn and Campbell are tied to each other, i believe they will either remain here together, or both will be gone next year.. the one exception i can see if is Zorn pushes for Campbell's replacement (in private discussions i would guess) and acutally does replace Campbell with Daniels (or Brennan just for example)
and has early success with the young QB.. that scenario might actually buy Zorn another year to develop Daniels

but if he and Campbell finish the year together, out of the playoffs, both will be gone after this year..

[Farmer Ted]

There are young rookies who succeed almost right from the beginning. JC is not a franchise QB but will get his chance to succeed well into his fifth season. How many others get that long? Most QB get 20-30 games to succeed (Ramsey, Shuler).


It's hard to get data (for me) on # of starts, but he's already #7 all-time in pass attempts for Redskins' QB's (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/career-passing.htm) (too much of a pain to put headers in on the columns, and Baugh's #'s are skewed over a bit).


1 Joe Theismann 1974 1985 167G 77-47-0 2044 3602 56.7% 25206 160 4.4 138 3.8 84 7 6.2 12.3 150.9 77.4 340 2757 5.7 4.9 8.6
2 Sonny Jurgensen 1964 1974 135 52-51-5 1831 3155 58 22585 179 5.7 116 3.7 99 7.2 6.6 12.3 167.3 83.9 94 748 6 5.5 7.4
3 Sammy Baugh 1937 1952 165 11/10/2000 1693 2995 56.5 21886 187 6.2 203 6.8 86 7.3 5.5 12.9 132.6 72.2
4 Mark Rypien 1988 1993 77 45-27-0 1244 2207 56.4 15928 101 4.6 75 3.4 82 7.2 6.6 12.8 206.9 80.2 82 578 6.7 6.1 3.6
5 Billy Kilmer 1971 1978 82 50-23-1 953 1791 53.2 12352 103 5.8 75 4.2 96 6.9 6.2 13 150.6 76.9 117 826 6 5.4 6.1
6 Gus Frerotte 1994 1998 52 19-26-1 744 1422 52.3 9769 48 3.4 44 3.1 73 6.9 6.2 13.1 187.9 72.7 83 551 6.1 5.4 5.5
7 Jason Campbell 2006 2008 36 16-20-0 675 1130 59.7 7242 35 3.1 23 2 67 6.4 6.1 10.7 201.2 80.4 66 431 5.7 5.4 5.5
8 Eddie LeBaron 1952 1959 82 22-31-2 539 1104 48.8 8068 59 5.3 88 8 82 7.3 4.8 15 98.4 57.8
9 Norm Snead 1961 1963 42 9/30/2003 531 1092 48.6 8306 46 4.2 71 6.5 85 7.6 5.5 15.6 197.8 61.2
10 Jay Schroeder 1985 1987 36 24-7-0 517 1017 50.8 7445 39 3.8 37 3.6 84 7.3 6.5 14.4 206.8 72.6 60 503 6.4 5.6 5.6
11 Mark Brunell 2004 2006 35 15-18-0 542 951 57 6033 38 4 20 2.1 78 6.3 6.2 11.1 172.4 80.6 54 410 5.6 5.5 5.4
12 Brad Johnson 1999 2000 28 17-10-0 544 884 61.5 6510 35 4 28 3.2 77 7.4 6.7 12 232.5 84 49 327 6.6 6 5.3
13 Patrick Ramsey 2002 2005 34 10/14/2000 480 861 55.7 5649 34 3.9 29 3.4 72 6.6 5.8 11.8 166.1 75 75 502 5.5 4.8 8
14 Doug Williams 1986 1989 21 5/9/2000 345 617 55.9 4350 27 4.4 20 3.2 62 7.1 6.5 12.6 207.1 79.1 19 151 6.6 6 3
15 Trent Green 1997 1998 16 6/8/2000 278 510 54.5 3441 23 4.5 11 2.2 75 6.7 6.7 12.4 215.1 81.7 49 338 5.6 5.5 8.8
16 Ralph Guglielmi 1955 1960 37 4/13/2003 215 455 47.3 2864 17 3.7 40 8.8 70 6.3 3.1 13.3 77.4 43.5
17 Frank Filchock 1938 1945 58 224 431 52 3266 32 7.4 47 10.9 99 7.6 4.2 14.6 56.3 62.1
18 Harry Gilmer 1948 1954 57 0-8-0 178 411 43.3 2850 17 4.1 38 9.2 74 6.9 3.6 16 50 42.3
19 Heath Shuler 1994 1995 18 4/9/2000 186 390 47.7 2403 13 3.3 19 4.9 81 6.2 4.6 12.9 133.5 58.3 25 159 5.4 4 6
20 Tony Banks 2001 2001 15 8/6/2000 198 370 53.5 2386 10 2.7 10 2.7 85 6.4 5.8 12.1 159.1 71.3 29 173 5.5 4.9 7.3

[shally]

It's hard to get data (for me) on # of starts, but he's already #7 all-time in pass attempts for Redskins' QB's (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/career-passing.htm) (too much of a pain to put headers in on the columns, and Baugh's #'s are skewed over a bit).


1 Joe Theismann 1974 1985 167G 77-47-0 2044 3602 56.7% 25206 160 4.4 138 3.8 84 7 6.2 12.3 150.9 77.4 340 2757 5.7 4.9 8.6
2 Sonny Jurgensen 1964 1974 135 52-51-5 1831 3155 58 22585 179 5.7 116 3.7 99 7.2 6.6 12.3 167.3 83.9 94 748 6 5.5 7.4
3 Sammy Baugh 1937 1952 165 11/10/2000 1693 2995 56.5 21886 187 6.2 203 6.8 86 7.3 5.5 12.9 132.6 72.2
4 Mark Rypien 1988 1993 77 45-27-0 1244 2207 56.4 15928 101 4.6 75 3.4 82 7.2 6.6 12.8 206.9 80.2 82 578 6.7 6.1 3.6
5 Billy Kilmer 1971 1978 82 50-23-1 953 1791 53.2 12352 103 5.8 75 4.2 96 6.9 6.2 13 150.6 76.9 117 826 6 5.4 6.1
6 Gus Frerotte 1994 1998 52 19-26-1 744 1422 52.3 9769 48 3.4 44 3.1 73 6.9 6.2 13.1 187.9 72.7 83 551 6.1 5.4 5.5
7 Jason Campbell 2006 2008 36 16-20-0 675 1130 59.7 7242 35 3.1 23 2 67 6.4 6.1 10.7 201.2 80.4 66 431 5.7 5.4 5.5
8 Eddie LeBaron 1952 1959 82 22-31-2 539 1104 48.8 8068 59 5.3 88 8 82 7.3 4.8 15 98.4 57.8
9 Norm Snead 1961 1963 42 9/30/2003 531 1092 48.6 8306 46 4.2 71 6.5 85 7.6 5.5 15.6 197.8 61.2
10 Jay Schroeder 1985 1987 36 24-7-0 517 1017 50.8 7445 39 3.8 37 3.6 84 7.3 6.5 14.4 206.8 72.6 60 503 6.4 5.6 5.6
11 Mark Brunell 2004 2006 35 15-18-0 542 951 57 6033 38 4 20 2.1 78 6.3 6.2 11.1 172.4 80.6 54 410 5.6 5.5 5.4
12 Brad Johnson 1999 2000 28 17-10-0 544 884 61.5 6510 35 4 28 3.2 77 7.4 6.7 12 232.5 84 49 327 6.6 6 5.3
13 Patrick Ramsey 2002 2005 34 10/14/2000 480 861 55.7 5649 34 3.9 29 3.4 72 6.6 5.8 11.8 166.1 75 75 502 5.5 4.8 8
14 Doug Williams 1986 1989 21 5/9/2000 345 617 55.9 4350 27 4.4 20 3.2 62 7.1 6.5 12.6 207.1 79.1 19 151 6.6 6 3
15 Trent Green 1997 1998 16 6/8/2000 278 510 54.5 3441 23 4.5 11 2.2 75 6.7 6.7 12.4 215.1 81.7 49 338 5.6 5.5 8.8
16 Ralph Guglielmi 1955 1960 37 4/13/2003 215 455 47.3 2864 17 3.7 40 8.8 70 6.3 3.1 13.3 77.4 43.5
17 Frank Filchock 1938 1945 58 224 431 52 3266 32 7.4 47 10.9 99 7.6 4.2 14.6 56.3 62.1
18 Harry Gilmer 1948 1954 57 0-8-0 178 411 43.3 2850 17 4.1 38 9.2 74 6.9 3.6 16 50 42.3
19 Heath Shuler 1994 1995 18 4/9/2000 186 390 47.7 2403 13 3.3 19 4.9 81 6.2 4.6 12.9 133.5 58.3 25 159 5.4 4 6
20 Tony Banks 2001 2001 15 8/6/2000 198 370 53.5 2386 10 2.7 10 2.7 85 6.4 5.8 12.1 159.1 71.3 29 173 5.5 4.9 7.3



more games already than mark brunell.. i would not have guessed that..

[sinskin]

Blah blah blah Cambell blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah Cambell's 5th year. Blah blah blah blah Cambell's 4 Offense. Blah blah blah blah and for the most part.... Blah blah blah Cambell.

You know what is Blah.... Cambell and Cambell's play!

[shally]

Blah blah blah Cambell blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah Cambell's 5th year. Blah blah blah blah Cambell's 4 Offense. Blah blah blah blah and for the most part.... Blah blah blah Cambell.

You know what is Blah.... Cambell and Cambell's play!


ooooooohhh.. i sense a little hostility there.. tell us how you REALLY feel...lol

[dj_stouty]

This could be an interesting debate, but isn't Lavar generally viewed as a disappointment for us? Perhaps not the best example.

Disapoinment in the fact that he wasn't a 9-time Pro Bowler in the Burgundy and Gold? Definitely. But overall; it depends on what you expected from Lavar. While I believe his short tenure didn't live up to his 2nd overall pick; I do believe he was a GREAT contributor who evolved to the system around him. He wasn't always happy with the new system every year, but he made the most of it. He did make the Pro Bowl with three different DCs (Kurt Schottenheimer, Marvin Lewis and George Edwards) and All-Pro with two of them. That would make him a perfect example for this scenario; regardless how many years he was a Redskin.

The topic at hand is how well good football players can adapt to a new coordinator...

[shally]

Disapoinment in the fact that he wasn't a 9-time Pro Bowler in the Burgundy and Gold? Definitely. But overall; it depends on what you expected from Lavar. While I believe his short tenure didn't live up to his 2nd overall pick; I do believe he was a GREAT contributor who evolved to the system around him. He wasn't always happy with the new system every year, but he made the most of it. He did make the Pro Bowl with three different DCs (Kurt Schottenheimer, Marvin Lewis and George Edwards) and All-Pro with two of them. That would make him a perfect example for this scenario; regardless how many years he was a Redskin.

The topic at hand is how well good football players can adapt to a new coordinator...

theone thing i would say is that lavar wasnt even required to call defenses for an entire defense. he just had responsibility for himself..

whereas Campbell has had responsibility for the entire offense.. i DO agree that taking line calls away from him this year was a very wise move..

[sinskin]

ooooooohhh.. i sense a little hostility there.. tell us how you REALLY feel...lol

You know shally.... I jusr watched the Jets Ravens game and by god Flacco lit it up . Flacco.... talking about Flacco. Second year QB. With noone really to throw to besides a working man's Santana Moss in Mason.

Product of Great Coaching and a good solid talented QB. IN HIS SECOND YEAR. The man again Lit it up!

Tired of the excuses and whiny talk about his misfortunes. 5th year and he still don't get it... he still has things to work on... still has progress to be made....Cutler in his first year in that system and he comes out with Noname WR's and scores what 14... 17 points? Cmon.

Bah

[shally]

You know shally.... I jusr watched the Jets Ravens game and by god Flacco lit it up . Flacco.... talking about Flacco. Second year QB. With noone really to throw to besides a working man's Santana Moss in Mason.

Product of Great Coaching and a good solid talented QB. IN HIS SECOND YEAR. The man again Lit it up!

Tired of the excuses and whiny talk about his misfortunes. 5th year and he still don't get it... he still has things to work on... still has progress to be made....Cutler in his first year in that system and he comes out with Noname WR's and scores what 14... 17 points? Cmon.

Bah


flacco played at a small school, but played a lot in college.
the bmore o line is better and they have 3 very good runners (mclain, rice and mcgahee).. he was only asked to throw about 15-20 at most per game last year.. the offense protected flacco

[bergiemoore]

flacco played at a small school, but played a lot in college.
the bmore o line is better and they have 3 very good runners (mclain, rice and mcgahee).. he was only asked to throw about 15-20 at most per game last year.. the offense protected flacco

Baltimore did a lot to protect Flacco from himself, last season, and it paid off. They were able to drive it down opposing defenses throats at will, and Flacco had TONS of time to make his reads and deliver the ball. Their receivers are also very good at hanging onto the ball once it got there.

Contrast that with the Skins.... I hope the OLine holds up.

[shally]

Baltimore did a lot to protect Flacco from himself, last season, and it paid off. They were able to drive it down opposing defenses throats at will, and Flacco had TONS of time to make his reads and deliver the ball. Their receivers are also very good at hanging onto the ball once it got there.

Contrast that with the Skins.... I hope the OLine holds up.

again, they built their offense AROUND flacco to best help him succeed..we did the opposite. we hire a HC whose offense is a poor fit for Campbell and expect miracles

also, had it not been for injuries inthe preseason Flacco would NOT have started the year at QB.. both Bmore and he were very lucky..

[SkinsfaninNJ]

You know shally.... I jusr watched the Jets Ravens game and by god Flacco lit it up . Flacco.... talking about Flacco. Second year QB. With noone really to throw to besides a working man's Santana Moss in Mason.

Product of Great Coaching and a good solid talented QB. IN HIS SECOND YEAR. The man again Lit it up!

Tired of the excuses and whiny talk about his misfortunes. 5th year and he still don't get it... he still has things to work on... still has progress to be made....Cutler in his first year in that system and he comes out with Noname WR's and scores what 14... 17 points? Cmon.

Bah

I didn't think much of Flacco after last year. He just didn't do much to get excitted about. But he played really well against the Jets. If Flacco continues to play this well, I am calling it here that the Ravens are the team to beat in the AFC.

I know none of this helps us with Campbell. I still think the light is going to go on and stay on for him this season. We will see.

[native skin]

All this talk is for the birds....

[Goskins11]

The negative way to look at this is that we tried to fit Jason into 4 different offenses and he failed at all of them.

correct. Hopefully Jason really turns in on here soon in preseason or comes out and just kicks ass or he is in danger of being a backup journeyman QB.

[sinskin]

flacco played at a small school, but played a lot in college.
the bmore o line is better and they have 3 very good runners (mclain, rice and mcgahee).. he was only asked to throw about 15-20 at most per game last year.. the offense protected flacco

This preseason Bmore has thrown 90% of the time... I like it quite frankly. They know they can run.... they had to get better at the passing game and wala they are. Brings up a good question here... why haven't we done this... obviously our passing game is what lacks. We know we can run the ball.

[akhhorus]

Disapoinment in the fact that he wasn't a 9-time Pro Bowler in the Burgundy and Gold? Definitely. But overall; it depends on what you expected from Lavar. While I believe his short tenure didn't live up to his 2nd overall pick; I do believe he was a GREAT contributor who evolved to the system around him. He wasn't always happy with the new system every year, but he made the most of it. He did make the Pro Bowl with three different DCs (Kurt Schottenheimer, Marvin Lewis and George Edwards) and All-Pro with two of them. That would make him a perfect example for this scenario; regardless how many years he was a Redskin.


+1. As much as I didn't like Lavar Love Hewitt towards the end, you couldn't deny that he was a great player for the skins. He'll always be a never-was though because of his knee.

That being said, I don't think one can compare a OLB being asked to play in different systems that are basically the same structural defense and a QB who's getting asked to learn a different playbook a lot(I don't think thats Campbell's problem though).

[shally]

+1. As much as I didn't like Lavar Love Hewitt towards the end, you couldn't deny that he was a great player for the skins. He'll always be a never-was though because of his knee.

That being said, I don't think one can compare a OLB being asked to play in different systems that are basically the same structural defense and a QB who's getting asked to learn a different playbook a lot(I don't think thats Campbell's problem though).

agree. MLB who has responsibilityfor calling the defense ? yup.. but not an OLB

[Skinzlover223]

You know shally.... I jusr watched the Jets Ravens game and by god Flacco lit it up . Flacco.... talking about Flacco. Second year QB. With noone really to throw to besides a working man's Santana Moss in Mason.

Product of Great Coaching and a good solid talented QB. IN HIS SECOND YEAR. The man again Lit it up!

Tired of the excuses and whiny talk about his misfortunes. 5th year and he still don't get it... he still has things to work on... still has progress to be made....Cutler in his first year in that system and he comes out with Noname WR's and scores what 14... 17 points? Cmon.

Bah

What? You don't have to wait 5 years to get production out of your "franchise" QB? As a Redskins fan this is news to me. Seriously JC is a joke, he has to defend his play to the media because he produces very little on the field. Very sad. Look I think we have seen the best of Jason Campbell, for some reason people think he is going to have this magical big season this year. I hope to eat crow, but I doubt it.

[joethefan]

+1

an excellent analogy, even though the positions differ a lot

so it's not an excellent anagoly if the positions differ...

[joethefan]

flacco played at a small school, but played a lot in college.
the bmore o line is better and they have 3 very good runners (mclain, rice and mcgahee).. he was only asked to throw about 15-20 at most per game last year.. the offense protected flacco

again, they built their offense AROUND flacco to best help him succeed..we did the opposite. we hire a HC whose offense is a poor fit for Campbell and expect miracles

also, had it not been for injuries inthe preseason Flacco would NOT have started the year at QB.. both Bmore and he were very lucky..

Wait a minute you sound like you're defending campbell now..I dont understand?

+1. As much as I didn't like Lavar Love Hewitt towards the end, you couldn't deny that he was a great player for the skins. He'll always be a never-was though because of his knee.

That being said, I don't think one can compare a OLB being asked to play in different systems that are basically the same structural defense and a QB who's getting asked to learn a different playbook a lot(I don't think thats Campbell's problem though).

I believe we will see Orakpo become everything we expected in lavar but on the next level.

[shally]

so it's not an excellent anagoly if the positions differ...

not identical, but still similar enough that i thought it was well thought out..:)

[shally]

Wait a minute you sound like you're defending campbell now..I dont understand?



I believe we will see Orakpo become everything we expected in lavar but on the next level.


there is much i like about Campbell. especially his character. but i still feel he is a poor fit for our system, and zorn

i think in the end Orakpo will grow into a full time DE.. that is something Lavar could have never done..as such Orakpo will be a better pass rusher, and not the
pass defender that Lavar was..

[Gravy]

there is much i like about Campbell. especially his character. but i still feel he is a poor fit for our system, and zorn

i think in the end Orakpo will grow into a full time DE.. that is something Lavar could have never done..as such Orakpo will be a better pass rusher, and not the
pass defender that Lavar was..

So when do we start the draft McCoy/Bradford/Tebow thread...:rolleyes: I really don't want to hear any of it anymore...let's roll when the season starts...no more articles, no more excuses, no more...no more...c'mon light it up (and I mean football, QBing) or else...

[Patrick]

there is much i like about Campbell. especially his character. but i still feel he is a poor fit for our system, and zorn

i think in the end Orakpo will grow into a full time DE.. that is something Lavar could have never done..as such Orakpo will be a better pass rusher, and not the
pass defender that Lavar was..

LMAO ......... don't backpedal NOW ........ You've pretty much documented how you feel about JC as a QB. .............. Like it or not (about 80% not liking it from what I see) - Campbell is the #1, so all we can do is hope he makes the best out of his last season with the Skins. ....... Personally - I hope he has an All-Pro season and then walks away from the Skins.

[shally]

LMAO ......... don't backpedal NOW ........ You've pretty much documented how you feel about JC as a QB. .............. Like it or not (about 80% not liking it from what I see) - Campbell is the #1, so all we can do is hope he makes the best out of his last season with the Skins. ....... Personally - I hope he has an All-Pro season and then walks away from the Skins.

i have also said, MANY TIMES, that we are tied to Campbell for this year. my wish, as always, is for a championship season for the team

after that, we will see what happens.. why anyone would want something bad to happen to the team just to teach snyder a lesson is beyond me

[Patrick]

i have also said, MANY TIMES, that we are tied to Campbell for this year. my wish, as always, is for a championship season for the team

after that, we will see what happens.. why anyone would want something bad to happen to the team just to teach snyder a lesson is beyond me
How is Campbell excepting deal from another team based on his performance this year going to TEACH Synder a lesson???? AND how is it something bad for the team. Heck base on just the feedback on the hR board along, over half the people would be more than happy to see another QB. I can assume that feeling projects out over the Redskins fandom. .......... The team will go on with or without Jason Campbell.

[shally]

How is Campbell excepting deal from another team based on his performance this year going to TEACH Synder a lesson???? AND how is it something bad for the team. Heck base on just the feedback on the hR board along, over half the people would be more than happy to see another QB. I can assume that feeling projects out over the Redskins fandom. .......... The team will go on with or without Jason Campbell.

assuming that Campbell finally getting over the hump and becoming an all pro qb, wouldnt you think that Snyder would want him to remain a redskin?

as far as i am concerned, once a player leaves the redskins, i would no longer root for them, if in any way it works against the redskins.. (going to the AFC is fine..)

they make personnel mistakes for sure.. but so do other teams

[Warpath23]

I didn't realize Jason had 4 offensive coordinators in 4 years. News to me. That explains everything! So has Todd Collins. I think Jason has the ability but I'm not sure he's playing with alot of confidence. He plays scared to me.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

So has Todd Collins. I think Jason has the ability but I'm not sure he's playing with alot of confidence. He plays scared to me.

He sure looked tenative last week.

[MDBluefinCrab]

How much more longer before he takes that "next step", lol. Again more excuses for his poor play. Coordinators have nothing to do with ones ability to master the basic skills of ones position. This is something that JC can't master. He's just a mediocre QB, at best and will be the Redskins downfall this season.

[Charlz]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/08/riggo_discusses_twitter_and_th.html

Riggins on his Tweets about JC. Although I want the best for JC I think he hit the nail on the head;

"JC showing signs of offseason turmoil, pressure mounting, when you shoot at the king; must kill him."

Again, being dull, I asked for an explanation.

"Management of the Redskins went after the king," Riggins said. "They took a shot at him, a couple times in fact, botched both attempts, and ended up with now a shaken king. Point being, is the king going to be able to perform with all the pressure that keeps mounting? Maybe I've got to be a little more straightforward."

No way. Anyhow, will the king be able to perform?

"Gosh, I'll tell you, Jason's a kind of guy that you'd want to take home, if you're a woman, and introduce to your mom," Riggins said. "But that doesn't necessarily translate onto the football field as a quarterback. I saw one moment last year where I thought maybe he might work. After the Giants game, he was completely humiliated, he in particular, along with Jim Zorn. I saw in that New Orleans game what I thought to be a guy that could be a leader, a guy with some fire. He had the flared nostrils in the second half when, he threw the touchdown pass.

"That's the guy. That was a week of humiliation, all the goading he did to himself, the hair shirts he put on and went through, and he got to that performance. And then the team started winning and he slid back into the old shoes of comfortability, which is who he really is. It's not unlike Wade Phillips down in Dallas. It's not in his personality to be that cocky guy, that in your face guy. I think there's an edge that perhaps he doesn't possess. That's just my opinion, I don't know, but as I've said all along, he seems to be more a guy who manages the game for you, and if everyone else makes plays, he can manage the game for you.

"If you're down to 90 seconds on the clock and you need a touchdown, is Jason Campbell that guy? Is he gonna take you down the field. I'd have to say I have my doubts."

[sinskin]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/08/riggo_discusses_twitter_and_th.html

Riggins on his Tweets about JC. Although I want the best for JC I think he hit the nail on the head;

"JC showing signs of offseason turmoil, pressure mounting, when you shoot at the king; must kill him."

Again, being dull, I asked for an explanation.

"Management of the Redskins went after the king," Riggins said. "They took a shot at him, a couple times in fact, botched both attempts, and ended up with now a shaken king. Point being, is the king going to be able to perform with all the pressure that keeps mounting? Maybe I've got to be a little more straightforward."

No way. Anyhow, will the king be able to perform?

"Gosh, I'll tell you, Jason's a kind of guy that you'd want to take home, if you're a woman, and introduce to your mom," Riggins said. "But that doesn't necessarily translate onto the football field as a quarterback. I saw one moment last year where I thought maybe he might work. After the Giants game, he was completely humiliated, he in particular, along with Jim Zorn. I saw in that New Orleans game what I thought to be a guy that could be a leader, a guy with some fire. He had the flared nostrils in the second half when, he threw the touchdown pass.

"That's the guy. That was a week of humiliation, all the goading he did to himself, the hair shirts he put on and went through, and he got to that performance. And then the team started winning and he slid back into the old shoes of comfortability, which is who he really is. It's not unlike Wade Phillips down in Dallas. It's not in his personality to be that cocky guy, that in your face guy. I think there's an edge that perhaps he doesn't possess. That's just my opinion, I don't know, but as I've said all along, he seems to be more a guy who manages the game for you, and if everyone else makes plays, he can manage the game for you.

"If you're down to 90 seconds on the clock and you need a touchdown, is Jason Campbell that guy? Is he gonna take you down the field. I'd have to say I have my doubts."

I agree with this. Marino was an ahole on the field...you drop a pass he chewed your butt. Manning chews some arse if you run a wrong route or aren't on his page. Elway same way. Theisman was a huge ahole but got the job done. I want the Skins QB to be an ahole lol.

[shally]

I agree with this. Marino was an ahole on the field...you drop a pass he chewed your butt. Manning chews some arse if you run a wrong route or aren't on his page. Elway same way. Theisman was a huge ahole but got the job done. I want the Skins QB to be an ahole lol.

you dont have to be a ahole to be a superior qb.. but you have to be able to walk the walk and demand that your teammates walk it also.. we are still waiting for Campbell to do both parts... tomorrow is time to start doing both

[redskin_rich]

Riggins tweeting....???

That has to be one of the final signs of the apocalypse.

[OCSKINSFAN]

The excuses will be gone this year for JC. The O-line appears healthy at this point and seems to be pass protecting better, it looks like he has better WR's this year (due to development and health of Thomas and Kelly), he has another TE option this year in Davis, he is in the same system as last year, there is a better D to provide him better field position, and the coaching should be better with the additional year/lessons learned of last season. Actually, for those reasons I am optimistic. However, if JC doesn't perform with that, he is gone and will likely never be more than a backup wherever he goes. Unfortuanately, that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on him to perform. So far this preseason, he looks like he is feeling it.

This is a what I said on another thread a few days ago which is certainly pertinent to this thread. It seems most on this thread have already given up on JC (and as a result are expecting a losing or mediocre season). JC does have some excuses and some QB's take more time than others to reach their potential. For me, this regular season (and not the last 2 exhibition games or even the next exhibition game) will tell the story. It's put up or shut up time for JC, but I for one am going into the season optimistic.

[joethefan]

LMAO ......... don't backpedal NOW ........ You've pretty much documented how you feel about JC as a QB. .............. Like it or not (about 80% not liking it from what I see) - Campbell is the #1, so all we can do is hope he makes the best out of his last season with the Skins. ....... Personally - I hope he has an All-Pro season and then walks away from the Skins.

Patrick, I have some of the some of the same feelings..whether people think it's the right thing to hope for or not. Snyder has shown us since he's purchased this team, his unwllingness to be patient, hey, he was the one that got Gibbs back, which traded up for Jason, he was the one that entrusted everything to him and now that Gibbs has rolled out, he was the one that couldn't even land a decent head coach. Then after all that change, he tries to get rid of Jason twice? So now Snyder has to deal with Jason. I think that kid has had enough of this FO...

Jason, have a great season. Get a big contract somewhere else, cause in my heart of hearts, I think even if you have a much better positive season then last year, snyder will try to low ball you anyway. We'll see you undercenter accross from our Defense.

[csquared]

Patrick, I have some of the some of the same feelings..whether people think it's the right thing to hope for or not. Snyder has shown us since he's purchased this team, his unwllingness to be patient, hey, he was the one that got Gibbs back, which traded up for Jason, he was the one that entrusted everything to him and now that Gibbs has rolled out, he was the one that couldn't even land a decent head coach. Then after all that change, he tries to get rid of Jason twice? So now Snyder has to deal with Jason. I think that kid has had enough of this FO...

Jason, have a great season. Get a big contract somewhere else, cause in my heart of hearts, I think even if you have a much better positive season then last year, snyder will try to low ball you anyway. We'll see you undercenter accross from our Defense.

Damn right he will. Spin it however you want but Campbell has had his chances. He needed to show consistency. The only consistency he showed was the mistakes he makes.

[hail2skins]

Those who think the Redskins 2009 season depends on JC are kidding themselves. The 2009 Redskins will be depending on the same positions they depended on in 2008. Those positions are on the offensive line.

Keep talking about Jason and how he's not the QB for the Redskins. You need to be talking about the aging offensive line which, for 2009 to be successful, can't sustain any injuries. Much like last year. We saw a QB play well when his offensive line played well last year. We also saw a QB play badly when his offensive line played badly. Not only that, we saw the demise of our running game which we all know, is not Jason's fault.

You can bring in any QB you want, pick whoever, and if our offensive line sucks, so will that QB. Be it Manning, McNabb, Flacco or whoever.

Shally, you bring up a good point in Baltimore protecting Flacco from himself. How smart is that? On the other hand, you have a FO that goes out and hires someone to tutor their QB for a system he doesn't fit. Yep, that's definitely Jason's fault.

This is not making excuses for him only pointing our facts in the situation that I believe some are blinding themselves from. To reiterate, make no mistake this season hinges on our offensive line staying healthy.

[hail2skins]

pretty good read from HomerMcFanboy

http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2009/08/20/campbell-haters-beware/

[BurgundyNGold]

Riggins tweeting....???

That has to be one of the final signs of the apocalypse.
:lol1:

Unless tweeting comes with alcohol.

[BurgundyNGold]

Those who think the Redskins 2009 season depends on JC are kidding themselves. The 2009 Redskins will be depending on the same positions they depended on in 2008. Those positions are the offensive line.

Keep talking about Jason and how he's not the QB for the Redskins. You need to be talking about the aging the offensive line which, for 2009 to be successful, can't sustain any injuries. Much like last year. We saw a QB play well when his offensive line played well last year. We also saw a QB play badly when his offensive line played badly. Not only that, we saw the demise of our running game which we all know, is not Jason's fault.

You can bring in any QB you want, pick whoever, and if our offensive line sucks, so will that QB. Be it Manning, McNabb, Flacco or whoever.

Shally, you bring up a good point in Baltimore protecting Flacco from himself. How smart is that? On the other hand, you have a FO that goes out and hires someone to tutor their QB for a system he doesn't fit. Yep, that's definitely Jason's fault.

This is not making excuses for him only pointing our facts in the situation that I believe some are blinding themselves from. To reiterate, make no mistake this season hinges on our offensive line staying healthy.
It's fair to say, however, that JC in DC depends on the Redskins 2009 season.

[hail2skins]

It's fair to say, however, that JC in DC depends on the Redskins 2009 season.Sure, along with a lot of others.

[Ibleedburgundy]

pretty good read from HomerMcFanboy

http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2009/08/20/campbell-haters-beware/

That was a good read with good stats to back it up. But why must they classify everyone as a hater or believer? Seems to me the vast majority of Redskins fans think he's somewhere between servicable and good.

[smoak]

pretty good read from HomerMcFanboy

http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2009/08/20/campbell-haters-beware/

That's where I am Mike... At this point I don't even care to discuss/debate it b/c I'm sadly convinced the team will fail this season (unless the oline, WRs, and JC pull a miracle), and we can all look forward to a coaching search.

Here was my favorite line:

Our only hope is that after this season, Campbell finds himself in a city where he’s truly appreciated and is surrounded with enough talent to show critics exactly what he’s capable of. Just know that when it happens, we’ll be here saying, “Told you so.”

[Keino]

Those who think the Redskins 2009 season depends on JC are kidding themselves. The 2009 Redskins will be depending on the same positions they depended on in 2008. Those positions are on the offensive line.

Keep talking about Jason and how he's not the QB for the Redskins. You need to be talking about the aging offensive line which, for 2009 to be successful, can't sustain any injuries. Much like last year. We saw a QB play well when his offensive line played well last year. We also saw a QB play badly when his offensive line played badly. Not only that, we saw the demise of our running game which we all know, is not Jason's fault.

You can bring in any QB you want, pick whoever, and if our offensive line sucks, so will that QB. Be it Manning, McNabb, Flacco or whoever.

Shally, you bring up a good point in Baltimore protecting Flacco from himself. How smart is that? On the other hand, you have a FO that goes out and hires someone to tutor their QB for a system he doesn't fit. Yep, that's definitely Jason's fault.

This is not making excuses for him only pointing our facts in the situation that I believe some are blinding themselves from. To reiterate, make no mistake this season hinges on our offensive line staying healthy.

Amazing how people forget how well Campbell played when he had a healthy Oline and wasn't being undermined by his WRs. Call it excuses if you want, the facts support both comments.

[skin4ever]

Amazing how people forget how well Campbell played when he had a healthy Oline and wasn't being undermined by his WRs. Call it excuses if you want, the facts support both comments.

Either way, his first half performance may have only saved us from throwing the 20009 and 2010 drafts at the broncos for Cutler. It certainly wasnt enough to solidify his career as the franchise QB for the Redskins. He has this season to do that(and pending on how well he fairs early on, maybe not even that) I hope he does, I dont care whose on the field if we win games and be superbowl contenders (ok, i will settle for playoff team and a win in game 1)

As for the this season depends on the Oline. I think thats a copout and almost cliche like. Yes, for any team to be successful their Oline needs to be effective. But they need a Qb too. I dont think anyone thought the oline played well last season(although their excuse is better than JC's-health and depth), and I think everyone agrees we need to install some youth along the line. Why shouldnt JC be held just as accountable? JC should be held accountable along with the rest and not be free from criticism as he was a reason why this team failed. I think JC has been given a chance(by default) to show what type of QB he is. If it was just the OLine, and/or WR, that would have been apparent, but it wasnt. IMO, JC is getting the most crap because he is the general of this offense, the leader, and if the offense fails he is blamed. It may have been any QB in the league last season, but it was JC. Thats the nature of the position.

I do agree with almost everyone, that if we fail this season, wholesale changes across the board, bc JC wouldnt be(and isnt) the only problem on this team.

On a side note, man, the first half of last season (after the giants game) was an awesome time to be a skins fan. Just the positivity and buzz about the skins. Lets hope for more seasons like those games.

[hail2skins]

Either way, his first half performance may have only saved us from throwing the 20009 and 2010 drafts at the broncos for Cutler. It certainly wasnt enough to solidify his career as the franchise QB for the Redskins. He has this season to do that(and pending on how well he fairs early on, maybe not even that) I hope he does, I dont care whose on the field if we win games and be superbowl contenders (ok, i will settle for playoff team and a win in game 1)

As for the this season depends on the Oline. I think thats a copout and almost cliche like. I dont think anyone thought the oline played well last season(although their excuse is better than JC's-health and depth), and I think everyone agrees we need to install some youth along the line. Why shouldnt JC be held just as accountable? JC should be held accountable along with the rest and not be free from criticism as he was a reason why this team failed. I think JC has been given a chance(by default) to show what type of QB he is. If it was just the OLine, and/or WR, that would have been apparent, but it wasnt. IMO, JC is getting the most crap because he is the general of this offense, the leader, and if the offense fails he is blamed. It may have been any QB in the league last season, but it was JC. Thats the nature of the position.

I do agree with almost everyone, that if we fail this season, wholesale changes across the board, bc JC wouldnt be the only problem on this team.

On a side note, man, the first half of last season (after the giants game) was an awesome time to be a skins fan. Just the positivity and buzz about the skins. Lets hope for more seasons like those games.One question. Do you understand that teams are built from the inside out? The play of the oline isn't a copout. Holding JC accountable for the play of the offensive line is absurd. Holding him accountable for the running game is absurd. You can hold him accountable for the passing game though. There no one making an excuse for JC, some of us see there are issues with the team that JC shouldn't be blamed for. JC isn't on the field alone.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Either way, his first half performance may have only saved us from throwing the 20009 and 2010 drafts at the broncos for Cutler. It certainly wasnt enough to solidify his career as the franchise QB for the Redskins. He has this season to do that(and pending on how well he fairs early on, maybe not even that) I hope he does, I dont care whose on the field if we win games and be superbowl contenders (ok, i will settle for playoff team and a win in game 1)

As for the this season depends on the Oline. I think thats a copout and almost cliche like. I dont think anyone thought the oline played well last season(although their excuse is better than JC's-health and depth), and I think everyone agrees we need to install some youth along the line. Why shouldnt JC be held just as accountable? JC should be held accountable along with the rest and not be free from criticism as he was a reason why this team failed. I think JC has been given a chance(by default) to show what type of QB he is. If it was just the OLine, and/or WR, that would have been apparent, but it wasnt. IMO, JC is getting the most crap because he is the general of this offense, the leader, and if the offense fails he is blamed. It may have been any QB in the league last season, but it was JC. Thats the nature of the position.

I do agree with almost everyone, that if we fail this season, wholesale changes across the board, bc JC wouldnt be the only problem on this team.

On a side note, man, the first half of last season (after the giants game) was an awesome time to be a skins fan. Just the positivity and buzz about the skins. Lets hope for more seasons like those games.

I agree with what you say and with what Mike says. To take it a step further, some QB's can win despite not having a good oline. JC has not shown himself to consistently be one of those guys. Give him an oline though, and he can win (and probably win big). So the folks who do not support JC prefer a QB who can win despite. The folks who support JC believe that if everyone just did their job, JC would succeed. And the rare few like me believe he can still step up adn become a QB who can win even if other parts of the offense are failing around him.

[akhhorus]

I agree with what you say and with what Mike says. To take it a step further, some QB's can win despite not having a good oline. JC has not shown himself to consistently be one of those guys. Give him an oline though, and he can win (and probably win big). So the folks who do not support JC prefer a QB who can win despite. The folks who support JC believe that if everyone just did their job, JC would succeed. And the rare few like me believe he can still step up adn become a QB who can win even if other parts of the offense are failing around him.

Yes, but we've seen what Campbell is capable of when his Oline is solid and his receivers give a crap. Its not really honest to have a standard that Campbell has to produce, regardless of circumstance. He's not that kind of QB(and for the record, I don't believe that there are good Qbs without good Olines, a good QB needs at least a competent Oline). He is a guy that if you give him the time to throw and at least one WR who gives a crap, he can torch you.

[Irish Redskin]

pretty good read from HomerMcFanboy

http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2009/08/20/campbell-haters-beware/

Great read.

[redskin_rich]

JC is not a franchise QB, any way you want to slice it. He is slow to make a decision, has a slow release, no touch and is inaccurate. None of those things are because of insufficient O-Line play, though they are compounded by it.

There is not a team in the league that will give JC a contract in the neighborhood of the top 10 QB's next year. He will get the typical journeyman 1 or 2 year deal with incentives and/or options.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Yes, but we've seen what Campbell is capable of when his Oline is solid and his receivers give a crap. Its not really honest to have a standard that Campbell has to produce, regardless of circumstance. He's not that kind of QB(and for the record, I don't believe that there are good Qbs without good Olines, a good QB needs at least a competent Oline). He is a guy that if you give him the time to throw and at least one WR who gives a crap, he can torch you.

I don't disagree. I think the folks that don't support Campbell want a guy who doesn't need a good oline and a 1,500 yard back in Portis.

To be honest with you, I have a hard time coming up with any great teams or great QB's who did not have very good olines in front of them. The Pats and Colts always build a great line. Obviously, the Giants have a top oline the last few years. The 90's Cowboys, Marino's dolphins, the 80's Niners and of course, the Hogs.

Here are some debatable exceptions:
1. Jim Kelly's Bills. I always thought their line got exposed or worn down as the season went on.
2. Warren Moon played behind some bad lines.
3. The current Steelers line is not great.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

JC is not a franchise QB, any way you want to slice it. He is slow to make a decision, has a slow release, no touch and is inaccurate. None of those things are because of insufficient O-Line play, though they are compounded by it.

There is not a team in the league that will give JC a contract in the neighborhood of the top 10 QB's next year. He will get the typical journeyman 1 or 2 year deal with incentives and/or options.

Well according to Football Outsiders in the article referenced above he is actually very accurate.

[redskin_rich]

Well according to Football Outsiders in the article referenced above he is actually very accurate.

Stats can be framed to support any argument. I prefer to believe what I have seen.

[akhhorus]

I don't disagree. I think the folks that don't support Campbell want a guy who doesn't need a good oline and a 1,500 yard back in Portis.

To be honest with you, I have a hard time coming up with any great teams or great QB's who did not have very good olines in front of them. The Pats and Colts always build a great line. Obviously, the Giants have a top oline the last few years. The 90's Cowboys, Marino's dolphins, the 80's Niners and of course, the Hogs.

The closest I can come up with would be Big Ben and the Steelers(and Romo and the Boys), but they both improvise a lot with his feet and they still have a coherent Oline. The Pats, Colts, Ravens, Chargers, Eagles, Saints, Texans, etc etc etc all have at least good Olines and it shows.

Here are some debatable exceptions:
1. Jim Kelly's Bills. I always thought their line got exposed or worn down as the season went on.
2. Warren Moon played behind some bad lines.
3. The current Steelers line is not great.

1. They did have guys like Kent Hill, Jim Ritcher and Will Wolford on those lines(8 pro bowls between them)
2. Those teams did have guys like Brad Hopkins, Bruce Matthews and Mike Munchak.
3. Not great, but coherent. Starks and Colon aren't star OTs, but they could start for most teams in the NFL.

[bergiemoore]

Here's another great article about the 2008 offense from Homer McFanboy:
http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2009/08/28/football-outsiders-talk-redskins/

In this article, Murphy interviews Doug Farrar, who wrote the Redskins chapter of the Football Outsiders Almanac 2009.

Farrar points out that the Redskins' offensive success/demise both in the running and passing game last season was closely tied to whether or not Samuels was on the field.

He also doesn't understand how with this obvious need, the Skins FO "passed entirely on the two best back-to-back tackle classes in NFL draft history."

[shally]

I don't disagree. I think the folks that don't support Campbell want a guy who doesn't need a good oline and a 1,500 yard back in Portis.

To be honest with you, I have a hard time coming up with any great teams or great QB's who did not have very good olines in front of them. The Pats and Colts always build a great line. Obviously, the Giants have a top oline the last few years. The 90's Cowboys, Marino's dolphins, the 80's Niners and of course, the Hogs.

Here are some debatable exceptions:
1. Jim Kelly's Bills. I always thought their line got exposed or worn down as the season went on.
2. Warren Moon played behind some bad lines.
3. The current Steelers line is not great.

the steeler line is deceptive.. they gave up a ton of sacks.. but some of that is on big ben, who TAKES a lot of sacks himself

also, the steeler have let guys like faneca or marvel smith walk rather than pay them. sometimes cheap gets you cheap..

[hail2skins]

JC is not a franchise QB, any way you want to slice it. He is slow to make a decision, has a slow release, no touch and is inaccurate. None of those things are because of insufficient O-Line play, though they are compounded by it.

There is not a team in the league that will give JC a contract in the neighborhood of the top 10 QB's next year. He will get the typical journeyman 1 or 2 year deal with incentives and/or options.Rich, don't let the Redskins lead you to pulling out your hair. I don't agree with anything you said in this post and I'm wondering if it's frustration on your part. I have seen Jason make quick throws which translate to a quick decision. I have seen him release the ball quicker as well. I have also seen him hit receivers in the chest only to see them drop the ball. I would not make these blanket statements about him as you are.

[hail2skins]

Stats can be framed to support any argument. I prefer to believe what I have seen.Well, those stats are based on what he did, so you have seen them. :D

[shally]

Here's another great article about the 2008 offense from Homer McFanboy:
http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2009/08/28/football-outsiders-talk-redskins/

In this article, Murphy interviews Doug Farrar, who wrote the Redskins chapter of the Football Outsiders Almanac 2009.

Farrar points out that the Redskins' offensive success/demise both in the running and passing game last season was closely tied to whether or not Samuels was on the field.

He also doesn't understand how with this obvious need, the Skins FO "passed entirely on the two best back-to-back tackle classes in NFL draft history."

sorry, but that is the same old litany of excuses for campbell.
neither hasselbeck nor favre has the problem of of a long windup and slow release.. and there are other issues that have been beaten to death.

sorry, but he is dead wrong that if you put either sanchez or cutler on the redskins, people are calling for campbell in a few weeks.

it is true, however, that taking away the best player on the o line (samuels) results in poorer line play.. duh.. same with any other team

[SkinsfaninNJ]

The closest I can come up with would be Big Ben and the Steelers(and Romo and the Boys), but they both improvise a lot with his feet and they still have a coherent Oline. The Pats, Colts, Ravens, Chargers, Eagles, Saints, Texans, etc etc etc all have at least good Olines and it shows.



1. They did have guys like Kent Hill, Jim Ritcher and Will Wolford on those lines(8 pro bowls between them)
2. Those teams did have guys like Brad Hopkins, Bruce Matthews and Mike Munchak.
3. Not great, but coherent. Starks and Colon aren't star OTs, but they could start for most teams in the NFL.

I was thinking Cowboys, but their line is pretty solid. I think Romo sometimes creates his own trouble by running out of established pockets. Steelers is probably the best current example. But then again, the Steelers defense is far and away better than ours over the last few years (reserving judgment this year with the new guys), so the offense and Ben do not have to be world beaters.

[redskin_rich]

Rich, don't let the Redskins lead you to pulling out your hair. I don't agree with anything you said in this post and I'm wondering if it's frustration on your part. I have seen Jason make quick throws which translate to a quick decision. I have seen him release the ball quicker as well. I have also seen him hit receivers in the chest only to see them drop the ball. I would not make these blanket statements about him as you are.

I would say to you, don't like your like for the guy cloud your evaluation of his abilities. Look, I really like JC, the person and really wanted him to be here for a long time. I've seen enough to know that he is nothing more than mediocre. He will be a fine QB2. That's it.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

sorry, but that is the same old litany of excuses for campbell.
neither hasselbeck nor favre has the problem of of a long windup and slow release.. and there are other issues that have been beaten to death.

sorry, but he is dead wrong that if you put either sanchez or cutler on the redskins, people are calling for campbell in a few weeks.

it is true, however, that taking away the best player on the o line (samuels) results in poorer line play.. duh.. same with any other team

I disagree on Sanchez. We'll see if I'm wrong, but I think it is going to a loooong season in Jetsville.

[skin4ever]

One queston. Do you understand that teams are built from the inside out? Holding JC accountable for the play of the offensive line is absurd. Holding him accountable for the running game is absurd. You can hold him accountable for the passing game though. There no one making an excuse for JC, some of us see there are issues with the team that JC shouldn't be blamed for. JC isn't on the field alone.

I agree teams are built from the inside out, but many believe the Qb to the center of the inside, then LT and so forth. Since 1990- 10 qbs have been drafted no. 1 overall, and only 2 Ol. Teams that have the number one pick usually are the worst team in the league and usually have the most holes to fill, yet almost 50% of the time they take a QB, not OL. Another example, the most recent NFL team is the texans, and they took a QB with their No. 1 pick in the draft to build the team around.

The Qb play has alot to do with the running game. If a team respects the QB's passing ability, they wont stack the box to allow the QB to pick them apart. If a team is playing a young or not particularly skilled QB, their plan will be to stack the box and force the QB to beat them through the air.

I agree 100% that JC isnt the only issue on the field. BUt it seems to me, that you some of you guys will only blame JC, if he has perfect conditions and still fails(which will never happen). But no QB will ever have perfect conditions. I hope you will agree that JC has some work to do on his behalf also: like stare down his first read, hold onto the ball too long, work on his long ball, hitting a WR in stride when going across the middle and so forth. Those are things that NO offensive line, Wr, or RB can correct. JC needs to do those things to succeed.

The FO has attempted to address the issues you state(OL and WR) the past couple of offseasons. JC, by default(failed attempts at Cutler and Sanchez), has a chance to show that yes it was only those issues that caused the offense to flutter and he is the man. I hope he proves this and wins a superbowl. That is why this season depends on him. The FO has done everything they can to help him(in their eyes) succeed, taken all the excuses away, its on him now.

The QB of any team is the focal point on offense. When the team succeeds the QB gets all the credit and fame, when it fails, he gets all the blame. Thats just how it is.

[akhhorus]

sorry, but that is the same old litany of excuses for campbell.
neither hasselbeck nor favre has the problem of of a long windup and slow release.. and there are other issues that have been beaten to death.

sorry, but he is dead wrong that if you put either sanchez or cutler on the redskins, people are calling for campbell in a few weeks.

it is true, however, that taking away the best player on the o line (samuels) results in poorer line play.. duh.. same with any other team

Sanchez is the SoCal version of what you don't like in Campbell lol.

[BurgundyNGold]

That's where I am Mike... At this point I don't even care to discuss/debate it b/c I'm sadly convinced the team will fail this season (unless the oline, WRs, and JC pull a miracle), and we can all look forward to a coaching search.

Here was my favorite line:

Our only hope is that after this season, Campbell finds himself in a city where he’s truly appreciated and is surrounded with enough talent to show critics exactly what he’s capable of. Just know that when it happens, we’ll be here saying, “Told you so.”
Meh, people said the same thing about Ramsey. It's always someone else's fault. It's one thing to expect the production of your WR to be predicated upone the other 10 players on the field but it's quite another to project that same criteria of your QB. I think that's what some people are doing for Campbell.

Maybe he's just not cut out to be aq productive starting QB in the NFL. Maybe he is. To me, it's time for him to show what he can do when he does get time because he will. If Campbell is going to lead any team, he needs to produce some "Wow!" moments when he does get time. And he needs to engineer a few last minute TD drives. Otherwise, he's not even Jon Kitna.

[BurgundyNGold]

Here's another great article about the 2008 offense from Homer McFanboy:
http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2009/08/28/football-outsiders-talk-redskins/

In this article, Murphy interviews Doug Farrar, who wrote the Redskins chapter of the Football Outsiders Almanac 2009.

Farrar points out that the Redskins' offensive success/demise both in the running and passing game last season was closely tied to whether or not Samuels was on the field.

He also doesn't understand how with this obvious need, the Skins FO "passed entirely on the two best back-to-back tackle classes in NFL draft history."
Hater! lol

[bergiemoore]

Meh, people said the same thing about Ramsey. It's always someone else's fault. It's one thing to expect the production of your WR to be predicated upone the other 10 players on the field but it's quite another to project that same criteria of your QB. I think that's what some people are doing for Campbell.

Maybe he's just not cut out to be aq productive starting QB in the NFL. Maybe he is. To me, it's time for him to show what he can do when he does get time because he will. If Campbell is going to lead any team, he needs to produce some "Wow!" moments when he does get time. And he needs to engineer a few last minute TD drives. Otherwise, he's not even Jon Kitna.

I don't know if it's fair to compare Campbell with Ramsey. His(Ramsey's) decision making was horrible, he had tunnel vision, and his play worsened with each consecutive hit.

I agree, however, that Campbell needs to put up some highlight reels this season to prove that he belongs as a #1 QB in the NFL. He's had an entire year to digest and play in this offense, as has the team around him. If he can't make something happen this season, he may as well be Patrick Ramsey, because he won't be a starter anymore.

[BurgundyNGold]

I agree teams are built from the inside out, but many believe the Qb to the center of the inside, then LT and so forth. Since 1990- 10 qbs have been drafted no. 1 overall, and only 2 Ol. Teams that have the number one pick usually are the worst team in the league and usually have the most holes to fill, yet almost 50% of the time they take a QB, not OL. Another example, the most recent NFL team is the texans, and they took a QB with their No. 1 pick in the draft to build the team around.

The Qb play has alot to do with the running game. If a team respects the QB's passing ability, they wont stack the box to allow the QB to pick them apart. If a team is playing a young or not particularly skilled QB, their plan will be to stack the box and force the QB to beat them through the air.

I agree 100% that JC isnt the only issue on the field. BUt it seems to me, that you some of you guys will only blame JC, if he has perfect conditions and still fails(which will never happen). But no QB will ever have perfect conditions. I hope you will agree that JC has some work to do on his behalf also: like stare down his first read, hold onto the ball too long, work on his long ball, hitting a WR in stride when going across the middle and so forth. Those are things that NO offensive line, Wr, or RB can correct. JC needs to do those things to succeed.

The FO has attempted to address the issues you state(OL and WR) the past couple of offseasons. JC, by default(failed attempts at Cutler and Sanchez), has a chance to show that yes it was only those issues that caused the offense to flutter and he is the man. I hope he proves this and wins a superbowl. That is why this season depends on him. The FO has done everything they can to help him(in their eyes) succeed, taken all the excuses away, its on him now.

The QB of any team is the focal point on offense. When the team succeeds the QB gets all the credit and fame, when it fails, he gets all the blame. Thats just how it is.
Excellent post. Measured, logical and detached. And 100% correct.

[skin4ever]

Yes, but we've seen what Campbell is capable of when his Oline is solid and his receivers give a crap. Its not really honest to have a standard that Campbell has to produce, regardless of circumstance. He's not that kind of QB(and for the record, I don't believe that there are good Qbs without good Olines, a good QB needs at least a competent Oline). He is a guy that if you give him the time to throw and at least one WR who gives a crap, he can torch you.

I agree JC is not a Qb who can win regardless, but i dont know of many Qb's who have it as good(all season long, year in year out) as JC needs to be successful. Thus, not worth the investment of time, money and draft picks. Of course, we already spent the investment so why not roll the dice one more season to see if by chance the first half of last year was NOT a fluke.

Your characterization of JC may be right, but IMO the time he needs is longer than defenses will give(on a play in and play out basis) and the one WR only needs to be 6' 5", be fast as lightening and have hands to catch passes anywhere in a square mile radius.(exaggeration of course)

[shally]

I would say to you, don't like your like for the guy cloud your evaluation of his abilities. Look, I really like JC, the person and really wanted him to be here for a long time. I've seen enough to know that he is nothing more than mediocre. He will be a fine QB2. That's it.

+1

could not have said it better myself


also, as with the guy he is compared to a lot, doug williams, JC might end up successful in another situation, running an offense that is better suited to his talents.. but NOT with the offense that Zorn is running..

[shally]

Sanchez is the SoCal version of what you don't like in Campbell lol.

i disagree with you.. from what i have seen of the two of them, sanchez has far better mechanics and touch.. not even close

i dont necessarily predict earlier success for sanchez, but let's see what happens..

[shally]

I don't know if it's fair to compare Campbell with Ramsey. His(Ramsey's) decision making was horrible, he had tunnel vision, and his play worsened with each consecutive hit.

I agree, however, that Campbell needs to put up some highlight reels this season to prove that he belongs as a #1 QB in the NFL. He's had an entire year to digest and play in this offense, as has the team around him. If he can't make something happen this season, he may as well be Patrick Ramsey, because he won't be a starter anymore.

and yet, many of his supporters trot out the excuse that Zorns offense needs 3 years for a qb to digest fully

that is either a crock, or zorn/holmgren are themselves the only ones who can design an offense SO complicated it cannot be succesfully simplified and still work.. or they have been cursed with some of the dumbest qb's in history..

[shally]

Excellent post. Measured, logical and detached. And 100% correct.

i agree...

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't know if it's fair to compare Campbell with Ramsey. His(Ramsey's) decision making was horrible, he had tunnel vision, and his play worsened with each consecutive hit.
I'm not comparing them as QBs. Campbell is far better. The comparisons I am making are a) people are blaming other conditions because of a lack production by a QB, and b) people said the same thing about how Ramsey was going to be good once he left the Redskins.

People like players. Sometimes, that clouds their perception. That's what happened to some people with Ramsey and I think that's what happened to Homer McFanBoy with JC.

I agree, however, that Campbell needs to put up some highlight reels this season to prove that he belongs as a #1 QB in the NFL. He's had an entire year to digest and play in this offense, as has the team around him. If he can't make something happen this season, he may as well be Patrick Ramsey, because he won't be a starter anymore.
And that's my point. If JC doesn't produce -- and I pray he does -- we'll see the shrill posts about Campbell is going to be a good QB elsewhere. He might be, but it'll be more like Trent Dilfer than Sonny Jurgensen.

[Hr fan]

I agree with what you say and with what Mike says. To take it a step further, some QB's can win despite not having a good oline. JC has not shown himself to consistently be one of those guys. Give him an oline though, and he can win (and probably win big). So the folks who do not support JC prefer a QB who can win despite. The folks who support JC believe that if everyone just did their job, JC would succeed. And the rare few like me believe he can still step up adn become a QB who can win even if other parts of the offense are failing around him.

Good point! However, I can't think of a QB leading his team to the playoffs behind a bad O line. Examples, please?

[akhhorus]

I agree JC is not a Qb who can win regardless, but i dont know of many Qb's who have it as good(all season long, year in year out) as JC needs to be successful. Thus, not worth the investment of time, money and draft picks. Of course, we already spent the investment so why not roll the dice one more season to see if by chance the first half of last year was NOT a fluke.


So, the solution is to roll the dice with another QB and hope that he can make steak out of crap? I agree that Campbell's time in DC is almost at an end, but this is self creating justification and not argument.

Your characterization of JC may be right, but IMO the time he needs is longer than defenses will give(on a play in and play out basis) and the one WR only needs to be 6' 5", be fast as lightening and have hands to catch passes anywhere in a square mile radius.(exaggeration of course)

No, he needs a top WR who cares about playing hard. Moss fricking said last season that the skins should be able to BS their way to beating bad teams. What does that tell you about his attitude on the field?

We've seen what Campbell can do when ARE/Moss give a crap on the field and the Oline is giving him time, so any debate about how good Campbell can be is over. We know how good he can be. He is a very good system QB: which means that if you give him the tools, he can do the job. I don't think, at the end of the day, that Campbell is much different than Jay Cutler(put Campbell in the Denver system of 2008, and I suspect he would put up similar stats). The skins refuse to hand him those tools(or refuse to put the tools in the game). So, turning around and saying that Campbell is the problem is borderline absurdity. Campbell has flaws, but we know how good he can be(and I'm not talking about potential).

This isn't excuse making, these are facts(except for my supposition about how he would do in denver's system lol).


i disagree with you.. from what i have seen of the two of them, sanchez has far better mechanics and touch.. not even close

i dont necessarily predict earlier success for sanchez, but let's see what happens..

I just don't see it. If you want to criticize Campbell for long delivery and staring down receivers, fine, but Sanchez is even more guilty of doing it.

[shally]

I'm not comparing them as QBs. Campbell is far better. The comparisons I am making are a) people are blaming other conditions because of a lack production by a QB, and b) people said the same thing about how Ramsey was going to be good once he left the Redskins.

People like players. Sometimes, that coulds their perception. That's what happened with Ramsey and I think that's what happened with Homer McFanBoy.


And that's my point. If JC doesn't produce -- and I pray he does -- we'll see the shrill posts about Campbell is going to be a god QB elsewhere. He might be, but it'll be more like Trent Dilfer than Sonny Jurgensen.

again, i think more like doug williams.. put him in a situation surrounded by great offensive talent, and a dominating offensive line.. and with an offense that encourages him to throw the long ball-- and i think he could be highly successful.

but he wont get that under zorn, and it is unlikely that if there is any kind of cap, and we have vinny running the front office, we wont have overwhelming talent any time soon either..

[BurgundyNGold]

again, i think more like doug williams.. put him in a situation surrounded by great offensive talent, and a dominating offensive line.. and with an offense that encourages him to throw the long ball-- and i think he could be highly successful.

but he wont get that under zorn, and it is unlikely that if there is any kind of cap, and we have vinny running the front office, we wont have overwhelming talent any time soon either..
I really don't see the Doug Williams comparison. Williams had a much quicker release.

[shally]

So, the solution is to roll the dice with another QB and hope that he can make steak out of crap? I agree that Campbell's time in DC is almost at an end, but this is self creating justification and not argument.



No, he needs a top WR who cares about playing hard. Moss fricking said last season that the skins should be able to BS their way to beating bad teams. What does that tell you about his attitude on the field?

We've seen what Campbell can do when ARE/Moss give a crap on the field and the Oline is giving him time, so any debate about how good Campbell can be is over. We know how good he can be. He is a very good system QB: which means that if you give him the tools, he can do the job. I don't think, at the end of the day, that Campbell is much different than Jay Cutler(put Campbell in the Denver system of 2008, and I suspect he would put up similar stats). The skins refuse to hand him those tools(or refuse to put the tools in the game). So, turning around and saying that Campbell is the problem is borderline absurdity. Campbell has flaws, but we know how good he can be(and I'm not talking about potential).

This isn't excuse making, these are facts(except for my supposition about how he would do in denver's system lol).




I just don't see it. If you want to criticize Campbell for long delivery and staring down receivers, fine, but Sanchez is even more guilty of doing it.


you watch a lot more tape than i do.. but i cannot say i see anything close in the way sanchez delivers the ball.. he is more accurate than campbell.. has far better touch on short and deep balls, and i think he has nowhere near the length of windup and slow release that campbell has

as to staring down receivers, you might be correct.. and running a pro offense as a rookie is going to compound that.. i will make a point of watching his next couple of games to see what i think..

[akhhorus]

I'm not comparing them as QBs. Campbell is far better. The comparisons I am making are a) people are blaming other conditions because of a lack production by a QB, and b) people said the same thing about how Ramsey was going to be good once he left the Redskins.

People like players. Sometimes, that clouds their perception. That's what happened for some with Ramsey and I think that's what happened with JC for Homer McFanBoy.

And that's my point. If JC doesn't produce -- and I pray he does -- we'll see the shrill posts about Campbell is going to be a god QB elsewhere. He might be, but it'll be more like Trent Dilfer than Sonny Jurgensen.

I didn't think Ramsey would be successful anywhere else because I just didn't see much in him except a rocket arm. Campbell has much more in terms of Qb intangibles and accuracy. If I had a team with a couple decent receiving threats and a competent Oline but needed a QB, I would snap up Campbell in a second. If I was doing a football throwing contest, I would hire Ramsey lol.

Homer FanBoy is focusing on too many trees and not showing the context of his stat, but the most devastating stat he presents to those who want to criticize Campbell is the drops stat. 34 drops last year is amazing(and I suspect that 2007 drops were higher). And thats not on Campbell.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Good point! However, I can't think of a QB leading his team to the playoffs behind a bad O line. Examples, please?

There were a few interesting posts on examples a few posts above. The best I could come up with is the current Steelers, whose line is probably adequate.

[shally]

I really don't see the Doug Williams comparison. Williams had a much quicker release.

i think the doug williams comparison are valid in this way:

doug took an awful pounding in tampa, and yet was quiet and team oriented

he worked behind some of the poorer offensive lines in the nfl

he had a long windup, not a short one, IMHO

he threw the ball too hard, and on a line in his early career. it was only late in his career that he finally developed any kind of touch

he was a pocket passer in the truest sense and had to be pushed to run the ball himself (campbell has started doing that far earlier in his career)

similar, no ???

[akhhorus]

you watch a lot more tape than i do.. but i cannot say i see anything close in the way sanchez delivers the ball.. he is more accurate than campbell.. has far better touch on short and deep balls, and i think he has nowhere near the length of windup and slow release that campbell has

as to staring down receivers, you might be correct.. and running a pro offense as a rookie is going to compound that.. i will make a point of watching his next couple of games to see what i think..

Anytime your first pass is picked off by a DLman who's waiting for the hot read behind the line and your second pass is nearly picked off by a ILB who's waiting for your pass, you're doing much more than staring down the WRs lol. As for his delivery, when he's throwing to his right, he cuts down on his delivery(but its still about 3/4s of Campbell's imo). When he throws across his body, he's been longer than Campbell from what I've seen.

[shally]

I didn't think Ramsey would be successful anywhere else because I just didn't see much in him except a rocket arm. Campbell has much more in terms of Qb intangibles and accuracy. If I had a team with a couple decent receiving threats and a competent Oline but needed a QB, I would snap up Campbell in a second. If I was doing a football throwing contest, I would hire Ramsey lol.

Homer FanBoy is focusing on too many trees and not showing the context of his stat, but the most devastating stat he presents to those who want to criticize Campbell is the drops stat. 34 drops last year is amazing(and I suspect that 2007 drops were higher). And thats not on Campbell.

the drops stat is inherently misleading.. there are "drops" and there are drops.

what i mean, is that it is one thing to count as a drop a ball that hits a receiver squarely in the chest, in stride..

it is quite another to count a drop, one that the receiver has to turn almost completely around to get his hands on, or that arrives high, and a millisecond before the defensive back arrives.. they are totally different

i WILL agree that between moss, ARE, portis, and even cooley, we have some of the worst offenders in the nfl that way..

but the Giants have long had issues like that with their receivers.. the difference is that they might have 5 drops in the first half, but they will make the catch in the 4th quarter when it counts...

[BurgundyNGold]

i think the doug williams comparison are valid in this way:

doug took an awful pounding in tampa, and yet was quiet and team oriented

he worked behind some of the poorer offensive lines in the nfl

he had a long windup, not a short one, IMHO

he threw the ball too hard, and on a line in his early career. it was only late in his career that he finally developed any kind of touch

he was a pocket passer in the truest sense and had to be pushed to run the ball himself (campbell has started doing that far earlier in his career)

similar, no ???
That's the only real similarity, IMO. They have similar size, I think too.

JC has been getting this comparison since the Redskins drafted him. I just don't see it in their play. Williams had a longer wind up on deep passes but he had a shorter release for most of his passes. JC plays timid, Williams never was.

As for the OL and the pouunding comparisons, I think that'sthe mind completing the pattern lol. It certainly wasn't valid when JC was drafted and some were making that comparison.

[skin4ever]

So, the solution is to roll the dice with another QB and hope that he can make steak out of crap? I agree that Campbell's time in DC is almost at an end, but this is self creating justification and not argument.

No, its too late for that, JC is our guy this season. I didnt understand the rest of your post.

No, he needs a top WR who cares about playing hard. Moss fricking said last season that the skins should be able to BS their way to beating bad teams. What does that tell you about his attitude on the field?

No arguments there. He has been very supportive of JC this offseason, and like JC we are stuck with him too. Hopefully they both play like they did first half of last season.

We've seen what Campbell can do when ARE/Moss give a crap on the field and the Oline is giving him time, so any debate about how good Campbell can be is over. We know how good he can be. He is a very good system QB: which means that if you give him the tools, he can do the job. I don't think, at the end of the day, that Campbell is much different than Jay Cutler(put Campbell in the Denver system of 2008, and I suspect he would put up similar stats). The skins refuse to hand him those tools(or refuse to put the tools in the game). So, turning around and saying that Campbell is the problem is borderline absurdity. Campbell has flaws, but we know how good he can be(and I'm not talking about potential).

JC has yet to show he can be effective and successful for an entire season. For all we know that could have been a fluke, much like you believe ladell betts' great season was. I would submit a different analysis of Campbells abilities and thus, crossing the borderline of absurdity back into reality. JK.

The FO, as stated in an earlier post, has attempted to alleviate the excuses provided for JC, as much as they are going to, at least. Its up to JC to prove the critics wrong this season or he may find his way to a career of 1 or 2 year contracts as a backup.

BL- I hope that JC is the MVP of the league this season and the skins get back to their historic past as a well respected winning franchise.

[Ibleedburgundy]

FanBoy is focusing on too many trees and not showing the context of his stat, but the most devastating stat he presents to those who want to criticize Campbell is the drops stat. 34 drops last year is amazing(and I suspect that 2007 drops were higher). And thats not on Campbell.

Can't really disagree with that but I think there is a caveat. There is something to be said for throwing a "catchable" ball. Brees does it. Brunell did it. Sometimes Campbell's throws look like they are knuckling a bit. Not excusing ARE and Moss because when you are a professional WR you need to catch the damn ball. Plus, Cooley doesn't seem to have any trouble with it. Just saying I think JC might not throw the most catchable ball in the NFL.

[BurgundyNGold]

I didn't think Ramsey would be successful anywhere else because I just didn't see much in him except a rocket arm. Campbell has much more in terms of Qb intangibles and accuracy. If I had a team with a couple decent receiving threats and a competent Oline but needed a QB, I would snap up Campbell in a second. If I was doing a football throwing contest, I would hire Ramsey lol.
There's no comparing the two as QBs. I was comparing their situation.

JC has limited intangibles (composure being the biggest). Ramsey had none, lol. Unless you count javelin throwing as an intangible.

Homer FanBoy is focusing on too many trees and not showing the context of his stat, but the most devastating stat he presents to those who want to criticize Campbell is the drops stat. 34 drops last year is amazing(and I suspect that 2007 drops were higher). And thats not on Campbell.
No, it's not. Folks lambaste the OL when our OL was just about average last year. Our WR, however, were among the bottom 5 in the league.

[akhhorus]

the drops stat is inherently misleading.. there are "drops" and there are drops.

what i mean, is that it is one thing to count as a drop a ball that hits a receiver squarely in the chest, in stride..

it is quite another to count a drop, one that the receiver has to turn almost completely around to get his hands on, or that arrives high, and a millisecond before the defensive back arrives.. they are totally different

I don't think that Football outsiders is counting anything but a drop on the WR as a drop. There is some level of subjectivity on the concept, but we know Moss, Cooley and ARE have this problem regardless of who is QB.

i WILL agree that between moss, ARE, portis, and even cooley, we have some of the worst offenders in the nfl that way..

but the Giants have long had issues like that with their receivers.. the difference is that they might have 5 drops in the first half, but they will make the catch in the 4th quarter when it counts...

I don't think that you can say the same about the Skins' starting receivers for several years now.

I'm not absolving Campbell of the issues he has as an NFL QB, he needs to improve in a lot of areas, but it is a mobius strip with him regarding his receiving corps. Campbell's problem is that he hesitates, but his WRs are so inconsistent that its hard to put that all on Campbell. Honestly, I think he's mentally shot here in DC. He has no confidence in his targets, his oline or his scheme. And if that doesn't change, then everyone has to go: Campbell, Moss, ARE, Zorn, Smith, etc.

[Ibleedburgundy]

There were a few interesting posts on examples a few posts above. The best I could come up with is the current Steelers, whose line is probably adequate.

Roethlisberger deals with pressure about as good as anyone IMO, which I think supports your point.

[akhhorus]

No, its too late for that, JC is our guy this season. I didnt understand the rest of your post.

I don't agree with that. I think if Daniel shows anything for the rest of the preseason, Campbell could get removed as soon as week 4.

JC has yet to show he can be effective and successful for an entire season. For all we know that could have been a fluke, much like you believe ladell betts' great season was. I would submit a different analysis of Campbells abilities and thus, crossing the borderline of absurdity back into reality. JK.

Betts' great season was in the perfect scheme for him, with an Oline that hit their stride in run blocking and playing for a new deal. Campbell's decline from his great performance in the first half of 08 can be directly linked to the injury of Chris Samuels towards the end of the Cleveland game. The entire offense sputters after that.

The FO, as stated in an earlier post, has attempted to alleviate the excuses provided for JC, as much as they are going to, at least. Its up to JC to prove the critics wrong this season or he may find his way to a career of 1 or 2 year contracts as a backup.


They have? They didn't do much to improve the Oline or its depth. They didn't get rid of Moss or ARE until after 2010. Seems like the rest of the offense is status quo.

[shally]

I don't think that Football outsiders is counting anything but a drop on the WR as a drop. There is some level of subjectivity on the concept, but we know Moss, Cooley and ARE have this problem regardless of who is QB.



I don't think that you can say the same about the Skins' starting receivers for several years now.

I'm not absolving Campbell of the issues he has as an NFL QB, he needs to improve in a lot of areas, but it is a mobius strip with him regarding his receiving corps. Campbell's problem is that he hesitates, but his WRs are so inconsistent that its hard to put that all on Campbell. Honestly, I think he's mentally shot here in DC. He has no confidence in his targets, his oline or his scheme. And if that doesn't change, then everyone has to go: Campbell, Moss, ARE, Zorn, Smith, etc.
i think after this year, the odds are better than 50/50 we will see the doomsday scenario for the coaches and players you allude to..

[Hr fan]

There were a few interesting posts on examples a few posts above. The best I could come up with is the current Steelers, whose line is probably adequate.

Accepted. But the Steelers have depth. Homermcfanboy quized footballoutsiders expert about collapse of our team last year. With compelling stats he showed that the single most observable cause was the loss of Chris Samuels, The difference in stats was breath-taking. Without Samuels in the last 3 games for instance the O lost TWO YARDS PER PLAY. The expert also pointed out that the last two drafts were widely considered the best for OTs in NFL history. And it is well chronicled here that Vinnie did not address the obvious cause of our failure, the Oline, in any way the draft/fa period!

There are QBs that can rise above average O lines when supported by great defenses - Pgh and Balt come to mind. But there are none that I can think of that can rise above a poor line, which we had the last 1/2 season without Samuels/Thomas, and with players that could not practice like Kendall, or were over the hill like Jansen. However I am not saying JC is good or good+, QB. I am saying that that without at least an average+ Oline the chances for a playoff berth are slim and none regardless of the strengths of the QB.

[dj_stouty]

Can't really disagree with that but I think there is a caveat. There is something to be said for throwing a "catchable" ball. Brees does it. Brunell did it. Sometimes Campbell's throws look like they are knuckling a bit. Not excusing ARE and Moss because when you are a professional WR you need to catch the damn ball. Plus, Cooley doesn't seem to have any trouble with it. Just saying I think JC might not throw the most catchable ball in the NFL.


Great point. It is true that Jason does not regularly throw a catchable ball. There is a difference between "making all the NFL throws" and "making all the NFL throws catchable". And it doesn't help that our WRs are far from the point of being able to bail out Jason on a regular basis so this appears to be a formula for disaster.

[akhhorus]

Accepted. But the Steelers have depth. Homermcfanboy quized footballoutsiders expert about collapse of our team last year. With compelling stats he showed that the single most observable cause was the loss of Chris Samuels, The difference in stats was breath-taking. Without Samuels in the last 3 games for instance the O lost TWO YARDS PER PLAY. The expert also pointed out that the last two drafts were widely considered the best for OTs in NFL history. And it is well chronicled here that Vinnie did not address the obvious cause of our failure, the Oline, in any way the draft/fa period!

There are QBs that can rise above average O lines when supported by great defenses - Pgh and Balt come to mind. But there are none that I can think of that can rise above a poor line, which we had the last 1/2 season without Samuels/Thomas, and with players that could not practice like Kendall, or were over the hill like Jansen. However I am not saying JC is good or good+, QB. I am saying that that without at least an average+ Oline the chances for a playoff berth are slim and none regardless of the strengths of the QB.

I went through the stats pre-Samuels injury and post-Samuels injury in another thread: it was about a 30-40% drop in every offensive stat I believe.

i think after this year, the odds are better than 50/50 we will see the doomsday scenario for the coaches and players you allude to..

Regardless of anything, Moss and ARE are gone. One of them after this season, the other after 2010. The odds are that Campbell is gone unless he has a Jay Cutler-esque 4500 yard season. And even then, I doubt he'll stay unless he gets the FO to dump Moss and ARE.

[Hr fan]

and yet, many of his supporters trot out the excuse that Zorns offense needs 3 years for a qb to digest fully

that is either a crock, or zorn/holmgren are themselves the only ones who can design an offense SO complicated it cannot be succesfully simplified and still work.. or they have been cursed with some of the dumbest qb's in history..

Al Saunders comes to mind.

[Hr fan]

i think the doug williams comparison are valid in this way:

doug took an awful pounding in tampa, and yet was quiet and team oriented

he worked behind some of the poorer offensive lines in the nfl

he had a long windup, not a short one, IMHO

he threw the ball too hard, and on a line in his early career. it was only late in his career that he finally developed any kind of touch

he was a pocket passer in the truest sense and had to be pushed to run the ball himself (campbell has started doing that far earlier in his career)

similar, no ???

=1. imo if Williams hadn't hurt his knee, forcing him to change motion and take a lot of mustard off the ball, we would not have won the SB.

[Hr fan]

the drops stat is inherently misleading.. there are "drops" and there are drops.

what i mean, is that it is one thing to count as a drop a ball that hits a receiver squarely in the chest, in stride..

it is quite another to count a drop, one that the receiver has to turn almost completely around to get his hands on, or that arrives high, and a millisecond before the defensive back arrives.. they are totally different

i WILL agree that between moss, ARE, portis, and even cooley, we have some of the worst offenders in the nfl that way..

but the Giants have long had issues like that with their receivers.. the difference is that they might have 5 drops in the first half, but they will make the catch in the 4th quarter when it counts...

Since the number of drops is quite lower than the number of incompletions there must be some standard that says the receiver should have caught the ball considering delivery and D positioning. IMHO.

[bergiemoore]

the drops stat is inherently misleading.. there are "drops" and there are drops.

what i mean, is that it is one thing to count as a drop a ball that hits a receiver squarely in the chest, in stride..

it is quite another to count a drop, one that the receiver has to turn almost completely around to get his hands on, or that arrives high, and a millisecond before the defensive back arrives.. they are totally different

i WILL agree that between moss, ARE, portis, and even cooley, we have some of the worst offenders in the nfl that way..

but the Giants have long had issues like that with their receivers.. the difference is that they might have 5 drops in the first half, but they will make the catch in the 4th quarter when it counts...

If the Skins weren't #1 in that category, with 2 top ten players(Moss and Randle El), I'd say it might be misleading. As it was, these guys were repeatedly dropping passes that hit them square in the chest and hands. Portis' was actually 3rd in dropped passes per attempt.

These are the stats from Football Outsiders, not HomerMcFanboy. They do a very good job of trying accurately attribute fault/success for plays. They also are about as unbiased as I have seen, and very meticulous in accumulating their statistics.

I remember seeing the Giants have bad games with Plaxico dropping balls in the first half, but no where near the systemic issue that the Skins had, especially in crucial situations.

I'm not trying to tout Campbell as an All Pro QB. But I really don't see how anyone can ignore the enormous amount of sucktitude this guy had to contend with, last season, both from the OLine, and the receiving corps.

I'm not certain exactly how long it will take Campbell to learn all the intricacies of the Holmgren/Zorn WCO, but I know how long they're going to give him to start producing on the field. If he doesn't play at a much higher level this season, I don't think he'll even get the chance to compete for a starting spot with the Skins next season.

[skin4ever]

I don't think that Football outsiders is counting anything but a drop on the WR as a drop. There is some level of subjectivity on the concept, but we know Moss, Cooley and ARE have this problem regardless of who is QB.



Heres a link that you stat guys might be interested in looking at regarding NFl Wr stats. I cant make heads or tales of it, but still interesting. ITs from Football outsiders.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

[akhhorus]

Heres a link that you stat guys might be interested in looking at regarding NFl Wr stats. I cant make heads or tales of it, but still interesting. ITs from Football outsiders.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

I think I posted those in January. They explain what the stats mean:
Wide receivers are ranked according to DYAR, or Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement. This gives the value of the performance on plays where this WR caught the ball, compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage. DYAR (and its cousin, YAR, which isn't adjusted based on opponent) is further explained here.

The other statistic given is DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average WR in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. DVOA (and its cousin, VOA, which isn't adjusted based on opponent) is further explained here.

Effective Yards, listed in red, translate DVOA into a yards per attempt figure. This provides an easy comparison: in general, players with more Effective Yards than standard yards played better than standard stats would otherwise indicate, while players with fewer Effective Yards than standard yards played worse than standard stats would otherwise indicate. Effective Yards are not the best way to measure total value because they are more dependent on usage than DYAR.

DYAR and DVOA include all passes intended for the receiver, both complete and incomplete. Catch Rate represents the percentage of passes to this receiver completed. This is a reference to incomplete passes, not dropped passes: dropped passes are not specified in publicly available play-by-play, and unfortunately we cannot yet correct for this.

The Qb stats are interesting:
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

Campbell is tied with Cassell and ahead of Favre and Flacco.

The simple fact is that Moss is a terrible WR who despite his occasional big game, is really an anchor tied around the offense.

[Hr fan]

Heres a link that you stat guys might be interested in looking at regarding NFl Wr stats. I cant make heads or tales of it, but still interesting. ITs from Football outsiders.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

+1. Even more shocking when you consider the Jeckell/Hyde season we had.

[hail2skins]

I would say to you, don't like your like for the guy cloud your evaluation of his abilities. Look, I really like JC, the person and really wanted him to be here for a long time. I've seen enough to know that he is nothing more than mediocre. He will be a fine QB2. That's it.I have actually stated faults I believe he has but what I won't do, like alot of others here are doing, is pin the entire team's woes on him.

He's not a Peyton Manning or Brett Favre type of player. We have never had a great QB (even when we won the trophies). We had great lines instead. You don't need a great QB in this league to be successful. Everyone wanting to run him out of town is ignoring what he did in the 6-2 run last season. That's a shame. Some of you have become just as impatient and the owner of the team.

[Patrick]

Anytime your first pass is picked off by a DLman who's waiting for the hot read behind the line and your second pass is nearly picked off by a ILB who's waiting for your pass, you're doing much more than staring down the WRs lol. As for his delivery, when he's throwing to his right, he cuts down on his delivery(but its still about 3/4s of Campbell's imo). When he throws across his body, he's been longer than Campbell from what I've seen.THANK YOU ............ I am so glad that kid did not fall into the Skins lap.

[BurgundyNGold]

I have actually stated faults I believe he has but what I won't do, like alot of others here are doing, is pin the entire team's woes on him.

He's not a Peyton Manning or Brett Favre type of player. We have never had a great QB (even when we won the trophies). We had great lines instead. You don't need a great QB in this league to be successful. Everyone wanting to run him out of town is ignoring what he did in the 6-2 run last season. That's a shame. Some of you have become just as impatient and the owner of the team.
That's unfair. In 4 years Campbell has not shown that he is worthy of a 1st round draft choice (which was a stretch at the time) or that he will be able to take this team on his shoulders and will it to victory. Not 1 or 2 or 3 but 4 years. Sure, there have been WR drops and plenty of them. There were also OL woes last season. But where are the "THAT'S why we drafted him!" statements during the game?

Right now, JC has shown that, all conditions being good around him, he can be an adequate, if not effective game manager. Whoopdeedoo. There are any number of those types of QB in this league. One of them is out current backup.

People like JC. He's a great guy and everyone, probably without exception, wants him to suceed here. But people aren't excited about JC because he hasn't given them reason to be. This is compounded by the fact that QB selected around or since him are doing so much more for their teams (Ryan, Rodgers, Cutler, Romo -- even Flacco).

This is Year 5. People are tired of being patient. They're given the kid half of a decade. He either produces now or, nice guy or not, perfect conditions or not, people won't care to hear about why he hasn't developed into the type of QB that makes plays and takes the team on his shoulders.

[skin4ever]

I have actually stated faults I believe he has but what I won't do, like alot of others here are doing, is pin the entire team's woes on him.

He's not a Peyton Manning or Brett Favre type of player. We have never had a great QB (even when we won the trophies). We had great lines instead. You don't need a great QB in this league to be successful. Everyone wanting to run him out of town is ignoring what he did in the 6-2 run last season. That's a shame. Some of you have become just as impatient and the owner of the team.

It wasnt just JC last season that made the first or second half of last season happen. The OL and WR's have just as many excuses as JC. Do you give them as great of a pass as you do with JC? If not, why?

As for impatient, Burgundy said it best above.

I dont think anyone is putting it all on JC. I for one put more on him, because i expect more from him and he hasnt improved on his fundamental weakenesses since he was drafted. Im not ignoring what he did for the first half of last season, im just not convinced as obviously you are to believe that he can do it year in, year out based on his entire body or should i say entire "bootie"(lol)of work.

[akhhorus]

It wasnt just JC last season that made the first or second half of last season happen. The OL and WR's have just as many excuses as JC. Do you give them as great of a pass as you do with JC? If not, why?

Thats circular logic.

Both starting WRs have been in the league for a combined 15 seasons. I think Moss started in the NFL in Campbell's freshman year in college(01). Both have shown the same problems with different Qbs, so its not Campbell(although the problem seems greater with Campbell for Moss). In any event, its the WR's job to maximize what the QB is throwing them, and the drop numbers clearly show that neither Moss or ARE are doing that. In fact it shows that they're not making much of an effort.

As for the oline, their problem was injuries last season and lack of talent this season(so far). Unless I missed something, I don't see how they logically need a pass on anything. Their job is to stop pressure on the QB and open up running lanes, they categorically failed in those jobs after Samuels went down last year.

[dj_stouty]

I have actually stated faults I believe he has but what I won't do, like alot of others here are doing, is pin the entire team's woes on him.

He's not a Peyton Manning or Brett Favre type of player. We have never had a great QB (even when we won the trophies). We had great lines instead. You don't need a great QB in this league to be successful. Everyone wanting to run him out of town is ignoring what he did in the 6-2 run last season. That's a shame. Some of you have become just as impatient and the owner of the team.

You must have super-human patience, my friend. ;)

Also, I have yet to read a post from anyone that pins the entire team's woes on Jason. I think everyone here is in agreement that our old O-line has no depth and our receiving corp is not up to par.

[hail2skins]

You must have super-human patience, my friend. ;)

Also, I have yet to read a post from anyone that pins the entire team's woes on Jason. I think everyone here is in agreement that our old O-line has no depth and our receiving corp is not up to par.Some people's post make it seem as though they feel he is the only problem. Replace Jason and we're a good team.

I have no patience with our front office.

[skin4ever]

Thats circular logic.

Both starting WRs have been in the league for a combined 15 seasons. I think Moss started in the NFL in Campbell's freshman year in college(01). Both have shown the same problems with different Qbs, so its not Campbell(although the problem seems greater with Campbell for Moss). In any event, its the WR's job to maximize what the QB is throwing them, and the drop numbers clearly show that neither Moss or ARE are doing that. In fact it shows that they're not making much of an effort.

As for the oline, their problem was injuries last season and lack of talent this season(so far). Unless I missed something, I don't see how they logically need a pass on anything. Their job is to stop pressure on the QB and open up running lanes, they categorically failed in those jobs after Samuels went down last year.

He's been in this league for 4 seasons and a starter for 2. He has 36 starts and 35 tds. According to Football Outsiders, " Catch Rate represents the percentage of passes to this receiver completed. This is a reference to incomplete passes, not dropped passes: dropped passes are not specified in publicly available play-by-play, and unfortunately we cannot yet correct for this."http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr


Im not sure where you came up with the 36 drops, but it could be argued that one mans drop is anothers horrible incomplete pass. Or dismiss it as quickly as other stats of dropped passes have been in the past.(moss with 6 or something like that)

"•We cannot yet fully separate the performance of a receiver from the performance of his quarterback. Be aware that one will affect the other." http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

Its all circular, the offense is composed of intersecting and directly reliant parts, so to ignore ones misgivings, the others should be ignored as well. I blame them all, they all could have stepped up and didnt. JC, Moss, Portis, Zorn, Raybach, Jansen everyone needed to step up and they all folded. But to answer your previous post, the FO has attempted to fill the failures on our offense. They cut Jansen, brought in Dockery, Bridges, Drafted 2 wrs' last season(big WR's who were supposed to be ballers and push the starting WR's), looking for diamonds in the rough along the line and at WR,and tried to move JC. These moves are a clear indication that they all were deemed to be ineffective. The leagues overall malaise for Campbell and the fact that Denver chose Orton(a more consistent and effective game manager type QB) indicates JC's talent as evaluated by professionals.

The Oline had its issues, certainly, but alot of the Campbell supporters almost categorically ignore or excuse JC as part of the problem and blame every one else. He was a big part of it. He was off on a lot of throws, held the ball to long sometimes and also seemed to roll his way into sacks too. This season, by default, he has another chance as a skin to show us that he is the man. We will argue this until we are blue in the face, but its up to JC to shut one of us up this season. Anyway, we will see tonight. I will keep an open mind and eye tonight for sure to see what JC is doing. I hope he plays well tonight, we need it and he needs this confidence going in to week one.

[redskin_rich]

Some people's post make it seem as though they feel he is the only problem. Replace Jason and we're a good team.

I have no patience with our front office.I don't think replacing Campbell will solve our underlying problems --no vision, no qualified man to set the vision, no patience to build a team correctly, preferring to build a Frankenstein's monster of a team, etc.-- but I don't think keeping him around helps anything either. I'd keep him next year on a backups salary only and find a new starter to groom.

[akhhorus]

He's been in this league for 4 seasons and a starter for 2. He has 36 starts and 35 tds. According to Football Outsiders, " Catch Rate represents the percentage of passes to this receiver completed. This is a reference to incomplete passes, not dropped passes: dropped passes are not specified in publicly available play-by-play, and unfortunately we cannot yet correct for this."http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr


This has nothing to do with your point.

Also, the drop stats are from their book, not their website. Two different things.

Im not sure where you came up with the 36 drops, but it could be argued that one mans drop is anothers horrible incomplete pass. Or dismiss it as quickly as other stats of dropped passes have been in the past.(moss with 6 or something like that)


From football outsiders' drop stats via Homer mcFB(it was actually 39 drops). I seriously doubt they are counting terrible passes as drops. Or are you going to try and get into a filibuster of this thread about the definition of a drop? Moss has had problems with drops his entire career, I don't know why you're arguing this.

"•We cannot yet fully separate the performance of a receiver from the performance of his quarterback. Be aware that one will affect the other." http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

Its all circular

Umm..no. Its circular logic to try and obscure a point with a neverending chicken and the egg argument. That what you attempted with your "well, why doesn't everyone else get a pass but Campbell?" post.

the offense is composed of intersecting and directly reliant parts, so to ignore ones misgivings, the others should be ignored as well. I blame them all, they all could have stepped up and didnt. JC, Moss, Portis, Zorn, Raybach, Jansen everyone needed to step up and they all folded. But to answer your previous post, the FO has attempted to fill the failures on our offense. They cut Jansen, brought in Dockery, Bridges, Drafted 2 wrs' last season(big WR's who were supposed to be ballers and push the starting WR's), looking for diamonds in the rough along the line and at WR,and tried to move JC. These moves are a clear indication that they all were deemed to be ineffective.

You can believe whatever you want to, but nothing you point out here buttresses your argument. They cut Jansen, let Kendell walk and replaced them with Bridges, Williams and Dockery. Thats status quo at best. They did little to replace Moss this season with anyone and at best will be replacing ARE with Kelly. They could have easily cut/traded Moss and saved a few million cap dollars(before Moss' restructure) to go out and get a vet WR(Boldin?). That would have been improving the offense. What the skins did cannot be called that no matter how you want to slice it.

The leagues overall malaise for Campbell and the fact that Denver chose Orton(a more consistent and effective game manager type QB) indicates JC's talent as evaluated by professionals.

Well, you're wrong here. We never offered 2 firsts+Campbell for Cutler. Denver got the picks they wanted plus Orton, I believe we offered a 1st, a 2nd or Campbell.

The Oline had its issues, certainly, but alot of the Campbell supporters almost categorically ignore or excuse JC as part of the problem and blame every one else. He was a big part of it. He was off on a lot of throws, held the ball to long sometimes and also seemed to roll his way into sacks too.

Except that the entire offense...not just Campbell...fell apart when Samuels got hurt. Again, you can believe whatever you want to, but the stats/play doesn't back up your theory.

This season, by default, he has another chance as a skin to show us that he is the man. We will argue this until we are blue in the face, but its up to JC to shut one of us up this season. Anyway, we will see tonight. I will keep an open mind and eye tonight for sure to see what JC is doing. I hope he plays well tonight, we need it and he needs this confidence going in to week one.

It really doesn't matter how he'll play this season, Campbell is off this team at the end of the season unless he wins a super bowl.

[skin4ever]

It really doesn't matter how he'll play this season, Campbell is off this team at the end of the season unless he wins a super bowl.

Your probably right, but would love for him to play better than worse, that can only help our sanity during the season and his potential trade value at the end should he play well enough.

[akhhorus]

Your probably right, but would love for him to play better than worse, that can only help our sanity during the season and his potential trade value at the end should he play well enough.

He's a UFA, the only way they could deal him would be to tag him and deal him at 15 million dollars for 2010. If he plays well enough to justify that salary, we shouldn't deal him.

[skin4ever]

He's a UFA, the only way they could deal him would be to tag him and deal him at 15 million dollars for 2010. If he plays well enough to justify that salary, we shouldn't deal him.

No matter how it works out, it wouldnt be a bad problem to have.

[shally]

I went through the stats pre-Samuels injury and post-Samuels injury in another thread: it was about a 30-40% drop in every offensive stat I believe.



Regardless of anything, Moss and ARE are gone. One of them after this season, the other after 2010. The odds are that Campbell is gone unless he has a Jay Cutler-esque 4500 yard season. And even then, I doubt he'll stay unless he gets the FO to dump Moss and ARE.

i think Moss and ARE will be gone based upon the development of thomas, kelly and mitchell.. if they develop then they make both of those guys unneeded.
plus, if hagans gets a spot on the PS and develops as a slot receiver, he would be the obvious replacement for ARE

JC is probably gone unless he takes the team solidly into the playoffs

[shally]

Al Saunders comes to mind.

and Saunders was openly no fan of Campbell

[akhhorus]

i think Moss and ARE will be gone based upon the development of thomas, kelly and mitchell.. if they develop then they make both of those guys unneeded.
plus, if hagans gets a spot on the PS and develops as a slot receiver, he would be the obvious replacement for ARE

Moss and ARE's restructures force the issue. They both void out after 2010 or the skins owe them large bonuses. They've all but removed ARE from the rotation so he's gone, Moss needs a massive season(1300+ yards and 10 TDs) to justify his bonus.

JC is probably gone unless he takes the team solidly into the playoffs

He's going to need more than that. A playoff win+4000 yards passing+25 TDs

[shally]

=1. imo if Williams hadn't hurt his knee, forcing him to change motion and take a lot of mustard off the ball, we would not have won the SB.

some of it was experience and development as well

Since the number of drops is quite lower than the number of incompletions there must be some standard that says the receiver should have caught the ball considering delivery and D positioning. IMHO.

it is still going to be very subjective

[shally]

If the Skins weren't #1 in that category, with 2 top ten players(Moss and Randle El), I'd say it might be misleading. As it was, these guys were repeatedly dropping passes that hit them square in the chest and hands. Portis' was actually 3rd in dropped passes per attempt.

These are the stats from Football Outsiders, not HomerMcFanboy. They do a very good job of trying accurately attribute fault/success for plays. They also are about as unbiased as I have seen, and very meticulous in accumulating their statistics.

I remember seeing the Giants have bad games with Plaxico dropping balls in the first half, but no where near the systemic issue that the Skins had, especially in crucial situations.

I'm not trying to tout Campbell as an All Pro QB. But I really don't see how anyone can ignore the enormous amount of sucktitude this guy had to contend with, last season, both from the OLine, and the receiving corps.

I'm not certain exactly how long it will take Campbell to learn all the intricacies of the Holmgren/Zorn WCO, but I know how long they're going to give him to start producing on the field. If he doesn't play at a much higher level this season, I don't think he'll even get the chance to compete for a starting spot with the Skins next season.

unless we are competitive until the end, he wont even get the entire season.. once (of IF we are)we are eliminated from the playoffs the pressure will be enormous to see what we acutally have in daniels or brennan

plus, that might be the only Zorn could salvage his own job-- if he starts one of the young guys and they immediatley look as though they belong as a starter..

[shally]

THANK YOU ............ I am so glad that kid did not fall into the Skins lap.

respectfully, that is absurd.. peyton looked ridiculously bad for much of his first season.. favre was essentially given up on by atlanta

the only way a first year qb is not going to look bad much of his first few games is if he does nothing but hand off..

[shally]

Moss and ARE's restructures force the issue. They both void out after 2010 or the skins owe them large bonuses. They've all but removed ARE from the rotation so he's gone, Moss needs a massive season(1300+ yards and 10 TDs) to justify his bonus.



He's going to need more than that. A playoff win+4000 yards passing+25 TDs

agree, because he is likely being held accountable for his past "errors" by our idiotic front office..

when your boss wants to get rid of you, you are probably going to be gone

[shally]

I don't think replacing Campbell will solve our underlying problems --no vision, no qualified man to set the vision, no patience to build a team correctly, preferring to build a Frankenstein's monster of a team, etc.-- but I don't think keeping him around helps anything either. I'd keep him next year on a backups salary only and find a new starter to groom.

that wont happen.. the situation would be so toxic and unfair that JC would definitely need a new change of address

[Patrick]

respectfully, that is absurd.. peyton looked ridiculously bad for much of his first season.. favre was essentially given up on by atlanta

the only way a first year qb is not going to look bad much of his first few games is if he does nothing but hand off..
I don't want to get off topic because this is about Campbell but I'll just say this in closing this side track - the only thing that is absurd is comparing Sanchez to Peyton or Favre ......... now if you say Alex Smith that would be more on track .

[firehawk157]

Accepted. But the Steelers have depth. Homermcfanboy quized footballoutsiders expert about collapse of our team last year. With compelling stats he showed that the single most observable cause was the loss of Chris Samuels, The difference in stats was breath-taking. Without Samuels in the last 3 games for instance the O lost TWO YARDS PER PLAY. The expert also pointed out that the last two drafts were widely considered the best for OTs in NFL history. And it is well chronicled here that Vinnie did not address the obvious cause of our failure, the Oline, in any way the draft/fa period!

There are QBs that can rise above average O lines when supported by great defenses - Pgh and Balt come to mind. But there are none that I can think of that can rise above a poor line, which we had the last 1/2 season without Samuels/Thomas, and with players that could not practice like Kendall, or were over the hill like Jansen. However I am not saying JC is good or good+, QB. I am saying that that without at least an average+ Oline the chances for a playoff berth are slim and none regardless of the strengths of the QB.
I remember that the draft with Reggie Bush in it was considered one of the most talented draft classes to come through in a while. Yet, look at the first round (at least) and a lot of guys who just appear to be busts are there. Point being, let's wait on calling the 08 and 09 draft the heaviest in OT talent.

[firehawk157]

From football outsiders' drop stats via Homer mcFB(it was actually 39 drops). I seriously doubt they are counting terrible passes as drops. Or are you going to try and get into a filibuster of this thread about the definition of a drop? Moss has had problems with drops his entire career, I don't know why you're arguing this.

I think it's a valid argument. Exactly what do you classify as a drop? Two hands on the ball? What if you have to perform acrobatics to catch the ball? If JC put too much mustard on a ball to a receiver 5 yards away on a crossing pattern? The receivers had a problem with drops, truly, but JC had an equally bad problem putting the ball in a position for a receiver to make a play. That isn't all on Moss and company...


Umm..no. Its circular logic to try and obscure a point with a neverending chicken and the egg argument. That what you attempted with your "well, why doesn't everyone else get a pass but Campbell?" post.

Not circular logic but definitely fuzzy. You simply can't do separate the two. It really is the chicken or the egg argument? Is JC bringing down the receiving corps or vice versa? Just far too tied together.

You can believe whatever you want to, but nothing you point out here buttresses your argument. They cut Jansen, let Kendell walk and replaced them with Bridges, Williams and Dockery.

Discounting Williams, which was putting house money on the roulette wheel, those are lateral moves for RIGHT NOW. But Dockery will continue to play at the level he's at for another 5-7 years while Kendall is still a FA. Jansen isn't guaranteed a starting spot on the worst line in the league but he's obviously in the twilight of his career. Heyer is better than Jansen and will be playing at a higher level in 2010 and beyond. Do those moves help immediately? Nope, but they are moves that look to the future.

Thats status quo at best. They did little to replace Moss this season with anyone and at best will be replacing ARE with Kelly. They could have easily cut/traded Moss and saved a few million cap dollars(before Moss' restructure) to go out and get a vet WR(Boldin?). That would have been improving the offense. What the skins did cannot be called that no matter how you want to slice it.

It would be stupid to give up the farm for Boldin since he's going to be a FA next year (along with Brandon Marshall). Next year's FA class of receivers looks good. Stand pat and get a receiver AND keep one or more draft picks. We burnt Snyder for doing what you suggested.


Well, you're wrong here. We never offered 2 firsts+Campbell for Cutler. Denver got the picks they wanted plus Orton, I believe we offered a 1st, a 2nd or Campbell.

I've never seen what we actually offered, but I think you are right in theory. I know they (the Broncos) said that they were blown away by Chi-town's offer.

Except that the entire offense...not just Campbell...fell apart when Samuels got hurt. Again, you can believe whatever you want to, but the stats/play doesn't back up your theory.

Samuels and Portis... Look on the injury report and if we see those two, chances are we won't win. That's the bottom line.


It really doesn't matter how he'll play this season, Campbell is off this team at the end of the season unless he wins a super bowl.

I doubt that. If Campbell lights it up, Danny will pay. I also doubt Campbell wants to try yet ANOTHER system.

[akhhorus]

I think it's a valid argument. Exactly what do you classify as a drop? Two hands on the ball? What if you have to perform acrobatics to catch the ball? If JC put too much mustard on a ball to a receiver 5 yards away on a crossing pattern? The receivers had a problem with drops, truly, but JC had an equally bad problem putting the ball in a position for a receiver to make a play. That isn't all on Moss and company...

To forestall 30 pages of defining what we think they define as a drop, I emailed FO to see their definition of what a drop is. Considering that Stats inc had Moss tallied with 18 drops in 2007, I'm guessing that Moss will lose this semantic battle.

Not circular logic but definitely fuzzy. You simply can't do separate the two. It really is the chicken or the egg argument? Is JC bringing down the receiving corps or vice versa? Just far too tied together.

My circular logic comment was more based on skins4ever trying to obfuscate the issue by trying to make everyone impossible to blame.

And no, you can separate the two. Moss had his worst stretch with the skins with Brunell as QB in 2006, and when Todd Collins came in for Campbell in 2007, Moss' numbers marginally went up while everyone else's went down.

Discounting Williams, which was putting house money on the roulette wheel, those are lateral moves for RIGHT NOW. But Dockery will continue to play at the level he's at for another 5-7 years while Kendall is still a FA. Jansen isn't guaranteed a starting spot on the worst line in the league but he's obviously in the twilight of his career. Heyer is better than Jansen and will be playing at a higher level in 2010 and beyond. Do those moves help immediately? Nope, but they are moves that look to the future.

I think that thinking Dockery has 5-7 good years in him is a bad premise to start an argument on. I think he has 2-3 at most. We still have an ulcer at RT and we made a lateral move at LG. The question was this year, not long term, especially since Campbell is on the chopping block after the season.

It would be stupid to give up the farm for Boldin since he's going to be a FA next year (along with Brandon Marshall). Next year's FA class of receivers looks good. Stand pat and get a receiver AND keep one or more draft picks. We burnt Snyder for doing what you suggested.


I would trade Moss for Boldin any day of the week. No one could burn Snyder for that move. And the issue at hand was if the skins improved the offense this year.

I've never seen what we actually offered, but I think you are right in theory. I know they (the Broncos) said that they were blown away by Chi-town's offer.


Considering that we were offering Campbell to Tampa and Cleveland, its doubtful we threw him into any significant offer for Cutler.

Samuels and Portis... Look on the injury report and if we see those two, chances are we won't win. That's the bottom line.

Generally, if you lose 2 hall of fame caliber players, your chances of winning drop lol.

I doubt that. If Campbell lights it up, Danny will pay. I also doubt Campbell wants to try yet ANOTHER system.

Unless Danny is prepared to give him more than Aaron Rogers got, I would be shocked if Campbell stays.

[smoak]

Great night for Campbell baby!!! Whiners are hushed for a week.

[native skin]

Great night for Campbell baby!!! Whiners are hushed for a week.
Whahahahahaha...:lol3:

[redskin_rich]

Great night for Campbell baby!!! Whiners are hushed for a week.

Good night for Campbell but lets not get silly and start calling people whiners. And don't just assume that those of us criticizing Campbell will just be quiet when he plays good.

Campbell responded well to the scrutiny but he wasn't great. Other than a couple inexcusable drops, he got an equally good effort by his receivers.
I still saw some hesitation from JC but not as bad as in the past. Overall, he had a very good night and if he can give us what we saw tonight in the majority of the real games, we'll be alright.

I was very happy to see JC get extended playing time and for the most part, the 1st half was just like a real game, minus the game-planning.

One of the better performances I have seen out of JC, without a doubt.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Good night for Campbell but lets not get silly and start calling people whiners. And don't just assume that those of us criticizing Campbell will just be quiet when he plays good.

Campbell responded well to the scrutiny but he wasn't great. Other than a couple inexcusable drops, he got an equally good effort by his receivers.
I still saw some hesitation from JC but not as bad as in the past. Overall, he had a very good night and if he can give us what we saw tonight in the majority of the real games, we'll be alright.

I was very happy to see JC get extended playing time and for the most part, the 1st half was just like a real game, minus the game-planning.

One of the better performances I have seen out of JC, without a doubt.
Very good game against a good defense with virtually no running game to speak of. Pretty, pretty, pretty good.

[Patrick]

Good night for Campbell but lets not get silly and start calling people whiners. And don't just assume that those of us criticizing Campbell will just be quiet when he plays good.

Campbell responded well to the scrutiny but he wasn't great. Other than a couple inexcusable drops, he got an equally good effort by his receivers.
I still saw some hesitation from JC but not as bad as in the past. Overall, he had a very good night and if he can give us what we saw tonight in the majority of the real games, we'll be alright.

I was very happy to see JC get extended playing time and for the most part, the 1st half was just like a real game, minus the game-planning.

One of the better performances I have seen out of JC, without a doubt. If the shoe fits ...................

[Ibleedburgundy]

I thought JC was aggressive, decisive, he went through progressions well, made good choices.

Still missed on a wiiiiiiiide open Moss at the beginning. Need to work on that.

[redskin_rich]

If the shoe fits ...................

I know a place the shoe will fit.

[Keino]

I thought JC was aggressive, decisive, he went through progressions well, made good choices.

Still missed on a wiiiiiiiide open Moss at the beginning. Need to work on that.

Moss stumbled a bit when he was going after the ball. He catches that ball without having to dive if he doesn't stumble...(assuming he doesn't drop it.)

[shally]

a good night for Campbell.. he played very well

let's see what happens when it really counts..

[BurgundyNGold]

Campbell had a good game. But this is not new, he has good games. He's not a bad QB so, of course he's going to have good games.

But in this good game, he somehow managed to not throw a TD pass. Again. And his accuracy was sporadic. He'd hit Moss on an amazing 30 yard out only to miss behind him on a 4 yard slant.

Good night for Campbell, but let's try to keep this in perspective. Nothing has changed from the discussions being had at about 4pm today before the game.

[joethefan]

Those who think the Redskins 2009 season depends on JC are kidding themselves. The 2009 Redskins will be depending on the same positions they depended on in 2008. Those positions are on the offensive line.

Keep talking about Jason and how he's not the QB for the Redskins. You need to be talking about the aging offensive line which, for 2009 to be successful, can't sustain any injuries. Much like last year. We saw a QB play well when his offensive line played well last year. We also saw a QB play badly when his offensive line played badly. Not only that, we saw the demise of our running game which we all know, is not Jason's fault.

You can bring in any QB you want, pick whoever, and if our offensive line sucks, so will that QB. Be it Manning, McNabb, Flacco or whoever.

Shally, you bring up a good point in Baltimore protecting Flacco from himself. How smart is that? On the other hand, you have a FO that goes out and hires someone to tutor their QB for a system he doesn't fit. Yep, that's definitely Jason's fault.

This is not making excuses for him only pointing our facts in the situation that I believe some are blinding themselves from. To reiterate, make no mistake this season hinges on our offensive line staying healthy.

Mike i've been saying this all along. People want to call it excuses. No one would have played well behind that line after the 8th game last year....

That's where I am Mike... At this point I don't even care to discuss/debate it b/c I'm sadly convinced the team will fail this season (unless the oline, WRs, and JC pull a miracle), and we can all look forward to a coaching search.

Here was my favorite line:

Our only hope is that after this season, Campbell finds himself in a city where he’s truly appreciated and is surrounded with enough talent to show critics exactly what he’s capable of. Just know that when it happens, we’ll be here saying, “Told you so.”

Yep

Amazing how people forget how well Campbell played when he had a healthy Oline and wasn't being undermined by his WRs. Call it excuses if you want, the facts support both comments.

One question. Do you understand that teams are built from the inside out? The play of the oline isn't a copout. Holding JC accountable for the play of the offensive line is absurd. Holding him accountable for the running game is absurd. You can hold him accountable for the passing game though. There no one making an excuse for JC, some of us see there are issues with the team that JC shouldn't be blamed for. JC isn't on the field alone.
Keino I'm convinced that many people here don't watch the entire game, they watch only the QB play..the don't watch the oline play at all. Jason can't win for losing.

[joethefan]

Great night for Campbell baby!!! Whiners are hushed for a week.

No they won't be smoak, because someone will STILL find something wrong with his play...."He ran it in instead of throwing it"...."he threw it too high...too low".

Folk around here will never be satisfied....

[smoak]

Good night for Campbell but lets not get silly and start calling people whiners. And don't just assume that those of us criticizing Campbell will just be quiet when he plays good.

Campbell responded well to the scrutiny but he wasn't great. Other than a couple inexcusable drops, he got an equally good effort by his receivers.
I still saw some hesitation from JC but not as bad as in the past. Overall, he had a very good night and if he can give us what we saw tonight in the majority of the real games, we'll be alright.

I was very happy to see JC get extended playing time and for the most part, the 1st half was just like a real game, minus the game-planning.

One of the better performances I have seen out of JC, without a doubt.

Im not putting everyone in the category of whiner, but some people blame Campbell for the fact that there isn't peace in the Middle East... And of course, I blame Zorn for it... LOL! All kidding aside, I haven't been on enough to even know specific folks position... I just know they exist.

No they won't be smoak, because someone will STILL find something wrong with his play...."He ran it in instead of throwing it"...."he threw it too high...too low".

Folk around here will never be satisfied....

Washington fans will always be enamored with the backup guy. Campbell has all the tools, and the opportunity to be the best QB of my time... But he (like any QB) needs help. Moss needs to get his head out of his backside b/c the drops got old three years ago.

[joethefan]

Washington fans will always be enamored with the backup guy.


not in this case, not for me...collins is not the answer for this team...no mobility at all. With this line, you need to at least have some mobility or at least you will need it...LOL

[shally]

No they won't be smoak, because someone will STILL find something wrong with his play...."He ran it in instead of throwing it"...."he threw it too high...too low".

Folk around here will never be satisfied....

folks here will be satisfied when we are a consistent winner and playoff team-- year after year.

until then, the Head Coach and starting QB are going to bear the brunt of the criticism.. that is the plain truth. it has been so, going back to the 1950's from my point of view, and will continue to be so.

Campbell played very well last night, in all phases of the game. zorn was mediocre, but some of it might be that it was preseason and he limited some things.. for example, at the end, there is no way we run the ball 3 times to close out a drive being 3 points down.. but i assume he wanted to see if alridge or dorsey (forgot who was in) could run for a critical first down.. he got his answer-- no, he couldnt.. and the reserve O line couldnt open the hole, either..

i have no agenda other than demanding that the starting QB of the Redskins be able to win games for them, all things being equal and NOT JUST BE A CARETAKER WHO WONT LOSE GAMES FOR THEM.. on that point, i realize i differ from some other posters here. but that is my prerogative .. last night, Campbell looked like that kind of player.. but, he also looked like that kind of player for part of last season, and then he didnt.. he has to be able to sustain play like that over an entire season--even when everything else, and everyone else isnt functioning flawlessly..

[native skin]

folks here will be satisfied when we are a consistent winner and playoff team-- year after year.

until then, the Head Coach and starting QB are going to bear the brunt of the criticism.. that is the plain truth. it has been so, going back to the 1950's from my point of view, and will continue to be so.

Campbell played very well last night, in all phases of the game. zorn was mediocre, but some of it might be that it was preseason and he limited some things.. for example, at the end, there is no way we run the ball 3 times to close out a drive being 3 points down.. but i assume he wanted to see if alridge or dorsey (forgot who was in) could run for a critical first down.. he got his answer-- no, he couldnt.. and the reserve O line couldnt open the hole, either..

i have no agenda other than demanding that the starting QB of the Redskins be able to win games for them, all things being equal and NOT JUST BE A CARETAKER WHO WONT LOSE GAMES FOR THEM.. on that point, i realize i differ from some other posters here. but that is my prerogative .. last night, Campbell looked like that kind of player.. but, he also looked like that kind of player for part of last season, and then he didnt.. he has to be able to sustain play like that over an entire season--even when everything else, and everyone else isnt functioning flawlessly..

Man! You saw Baugh play?! Lol

[FunBunch5]

All the Campbell apologist have their hopes up again after 1 good game. It is not like Campbell never has good games, he just doesn't have them consistently. No Redskin fan wants Campbell to fail, but he needs to do it for a season.

[skin4ever]

To forestall 30 pages of defining what we think they define as a drop, I emailed FO to see their definition of what a drop is. Considering that Stats inc had Moss tallied with 18 drops in 2007, I'm guessing that Moss will lose this semantic battle.

WOw, i guess now that you are putting stock in Stats Inc(something you didnt in another thread), you might want to wait for FO definition before considering it a semantic battle as he had only 8 drops(acc'ding to Stats Inc.) in 2008. http://nationalpost.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5463&team=28

My circular logic comment was more based on skins4ever trying to obfuscate the issue by trying to make everyone impossible to blame.

Believe what you want, but you got it backwards. Not trying to obfuscate the issue and blame no one, but merely stating that Everyone on offense was responsible for the failure last season becasue everyone sucked. Sorry im not one to willingly ignore ones inherent failures and responsibilities and place blame on everyone else.

Most successful plays break down like this:IMO, Zorn has to call a good play, Oline has to give JC time, WR have to get out of their breaks on time and get open, JC has to locate the WR, throw the ball accurately, and the WR has to catch it.

Thats why they are related. Everyone has to do their job to make it happen. For a great play, one or more have to go beyond just doing their job.

I will admit though, that Campbells performance last night showed a big progression. Like you said yesterday, when given time and WR help he can do it. The Oline and WR helped him out too. Moss included. (minus that drop on third down) THe Cooley play impressed me the most, Campbell threw the ball perfectly to Cooley(who was wide open, but even if he was covered it would have been perfect) I hope Campbell continues his progression.

[akhhorus]

So, you replied to another part of the post you're replying to when I wrote it, then read the rest? huh?

WOw, i guess now that you are putting stock in Stats Inc(something you didnt in another thread), you might want to wait for FO definition before considering it a semantic battle as he had only 8 drops(acc'ding to Stats Inc.) in 2008. http://nationalpost.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5463&team=28

No, I'm pointing out that another statistical organization has credited Moss with a lot of drops in the past, so that the question of what's a drop or not is probably not going to be favorable to Moss.

And for the record, FO replied to my question:

No real strict criteria. Just a pass we think that the wide receiver
should have caught (e.g. not one that he had to stretch for or catch
at an awkward angle).

So, FO has it noted that 39 times in 2008, Campbell's receivers failed to make a catch that they didn't have to stretch for or catch at an awkward angle. Thats not on Campbell.

Believe what you want, but you got it backwards. Not trying to obfuscate the issue and blame no one, but merely stating that Everyone on offense was responsible for the failure last season becasue everyone sucked. Sorry im not one to willingly ignore ones inherent failures and responsibilities and place blame on everyone else.


I didn't get anything backwards. You couldn't respond to a lot of points about Campbell, so you hit the ripcord and tried to obscure the issue in "well how can anyone assign blame to anyone." The circular logic is you trying to obscure the issue into a neverending loop.

Most successful plays break down like this:IMO, Zorn has to call a good play, Oline has to give JC time, WR have to get out of their breaks on time and get open, JC has to locate the WR, throw the ball accurately, and the WR has to catch it.

Thats why they are related. Everyone has to do their job to make it happen. For a great play, one or more have to go beyond just doing their job.

I've addressed this multiple times. I'm not going to repeat myself.

[skin4ever]

So, you replied to another part of the post you're replying to when I wrote it, then read the rest? huh?



No, I'm pointing out that another statistical organization has credited Moss with a lot of drops in the past, so that the question of what's a drop or not is probably not going to be favorable to Moss.

And for the record, FO replied to my question:


So, FO has it noted that 39 times in 2008, Campbell's receivers failed to make a catch that they didn't have to stretch for or catch at an awkward angle. Thats not on Campbell.



I didn't get anything backwards. You couldn't respond to a lot of points about Campbell, so you hit the ripcord and tried to obscure the issue in "well how can anyone assign blame to anyone." The circular logic is you trying to obscure the issue into a neverending loop.



I've addressed this multiple times. I'm not going to repeat myself.

As for stats, that can go in circles for ever. SO i will give it to you, Moss drops balls.


What points(post) did i not respond to about Campbell? Otherthan that, I just dont see last seasons failure(and JC's poor play) as black and white. Too many factors that alot of people seem to ignore. Neverending loop, isnt that how most of our discussions end up?LOL.

I hear what you are saying about Campbell and Moss' drops(you popped in my mind right when he dropped that 3rd down. I was like Damn, Akh's smiling right now. HA.) I just dont agree with it completely.

[akhhorus]

What points(post) did i not respond to about Campbell? Otherthan that, I just dont see last seasons failure(and JC's poor play) as black and white. Too many factors that alot of people seem to ignore. Neverending loop, isnt that how most of our discussions end up?LOL.

Except that it is black and white. The entire offense fell apart last year when Samuels went down. The running game, the passing game, 3rd downs, yards per play, turnovers, etc etc etc.

My complaint with Moss is separate from that: he clearly is mentally in the game about 30% of the time, and while thats fine for a 3rd WR, we're asking him to be the main receiving target. As much as someone like Anquan Boldin(since he was brought up earlier) might be a headcase, he's a headcase who plays hard every down. Campbell, in order to see how good he truly is, needs WRs who give a crap. Moss ain't that.

I hear what you are saying about Campbell and Moss' drops(you popped in my mind right when he dropped that 3rd down. I was like Damn, Akh's smiling right now. HA.) I just dont agree with it completely.

Thats only part of the problem with Moss. Frankly, the faster that Mitchell and Kelly as the starters in the DC, the better it will be for whomever is playing QB.

[Hr fan]

Man! You saw Baugh play?! Lol

He ain't the only one around here who did.

[shally]

Man! You saw Baugh play?! Lol

no.. but i saw the likes of eddie lebaron, george izo, ralph gugliemi, and norman snead play.. plus countless others

qb controversies are nothing new for washington football