Week 3 @Detroit: MUST WIN GAME [Merged]

[redskin_rich]

Title says it all and how pathetic is that? A 'should win' is now a 'must win' or all hell breaks loose. I can't remember a season hinging on a week 3 matchup with not only an inferior opponent but the worst non expansion team in the history of the NFL.

Memo to Zorn- Those shriveled balls of yours are in the vice and the buzzards are circling overhead. Take to heart some famous words from the late George Allen, "The future is now." Hold back nothing! No regrets!

Agree, disagree, agree to disagree? Discuss...

[LATrueRedskin]

Title says it all and how pathetic is that? A 'should win' is now a 'must win' or all hell breaks loose. I can't remember a season hinging on a week 3 matchup with not only an inferior opponent but the worst non expansion team in the history of the NFL.

Memo to Zorn- Those shriveled balls of yours are in the vice and the buzzards are circling overhead. Take to heart some famous words from the late George Allen, "The future is now." Hold back nothing! No regrets!

Agree, disagree, agree to disagree? Discuss...

Completely agree. There'll be a storm unlike anything we've ever seen around the Metro area if we lose to the Lions, giving them their first win in 20 straight games. I'm almost afraid to see it. Zorn has to play each game now like it's his last. No more saving plays for future games, no more saving Portis for the end of the season. Get Betts and Mason out of there, and give our only real running back the ball. Zorn needs to wake up and come alive.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Title says it all and how pathetic is that? A 'should win' is now a 'must win' or all hell breaks loose. I can't remember a season hinging on a week 3 matchup with not only an inferior opponent but the worst non expansion team in the history of the NFL.

Memo to Zorn- Those shriveled balls of yours are in the vice and the buzzards are circling overhead. Take to heart some famous words from the late George Allen, "The future is now." Hold back nothing! No regrets!

Agree, disagree, agree to disagree? Discuss...

I agree that it is a "must win" game, but I would add "convincingly". I mean, another 9-7 win against a pathetic team, while on the road, where a win is always important, would do very little in terms of convincing anyone that this team is anything beyond mediocre.

As for Zorn, I have basically given up on him. As a head coach, he seems to be lacking in almost every department. As an offensive coordinator, he has yet to show anything resembling a decent offense, and the 1 TD (against a purely prevent defense) in 2 games is a testament to that. My only hope is that barring a stunning turnaround, he will be gone at season's end.

[Redskinmayhem]

I'm going to have to agree. This is nearly a DECADE of fan frustration coming to a head right in front of Zorn. If we lose, or even don't win cinvincingly enough, It's going to be a disaster of BIBLICAL proportions. Seriously. Our offense needs AT LEAST 21pts and a win or Zorn may be looking for other employment on Sunday at 5pm.

[dj_stouty]

Of course this is a must win game. The Skins' only hope is taking advantage of the early easy schedule and bring a winning record into the Eagles game. After that the level of competition increases...

We were lucky to get the Rams and Lions back to back. It doesn't get much nicer than that. They MUST win both...

[Redskinmayhem]

As for Zorn, I have basically given up on him. As a head coach, he seems to be lacking in almost every department. As an offensive coordinator, he has yet to show anything resembling a decent offense, and the 1 TD (against a purely prevent defense) in 2 games is a testament to that. My only hope is that barring a stunning turnaround, he will be gone at season's end.

Agreed...Zorn is even clouding my memory. I recall Norv's offenses as incredibly dynamic, almost unstoppable at times...at least in comparison to this POS he calls an offensive scheme.

[Patrick]

Will agree that this is a "Must" win game.
Here something to think about though - What if this is the Skins MO - barely winning games BUT winning. How upset are you going to be if they end up with a decent record (good enough to get into the playoffs) but are only beating people by 3 or 4 points.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Agreed...Zorn is even clouding my memory. I recall Norv's offenses as incredibly dynamic, almost unstoppable at times...at least in comparison to this POS he calls an offensive scheme.
By the way, I have a question regarding this "scheme"...weren't we supposed to be running a West Coast offense? Is this what a WC offense is supposed to look like? I may be mistaken, but the ones I saw run successfully in the past didn't look like this at all (and not only because they worked and this one doesn't)...it's just that this offense doesn't seem to have any sense of direction..they just seem to call random plays, with little or no results.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Will agree that this is a "Must" win game.
Here something to think about though - What if this is the Skins MO - barely winning games BUT winning. How upset are you going to be if they end up with a decent record (good enough to get into the playoffs) but are only beating people by 3 or 4 points.
I wouldn't be upset (until we get humiliated by the first really good team we face in the playoffs), but it simply is not a reastic scenario. Barely winning against the better teams in the NFL is one thing, and can lead to success if coupled with convincing wins against the weaker teams, but winning by two points at home, without scoring a TD, against one of the worst teams in the NFL usually leads to one thing when you have to face one of the really good teams: disaster.

[LATrueRedskin]

Will agree that this is a "Must" win game.
Here something to think about though - What if this is the Skins MO - barely winning games BUT winning. How upset are you going to be if they end up with a decent record (good enough to get into the playoffs) but are only beating people by 3 or 4 points.

That would be fine, but what are the odds of that? If we can't beat up on the Rams and Lions, what are we going to look like against the Saints, Eagles, Cowboys, Giants, Chargers, Falcons, etc.? We are the first team that couldn't score a TD against the Rams since 2007. And the Rams have some ridiculous number like going 5-29 over that span. The Lions are 0-19 in their past 19 games. We should be pummeling these teams if we want to be anything close to a playoff team.

[Redskinmayhem]

Will agree that this is a "Must" win game.
Here something to think about though - What if this is the Skins MO - barely winning games BUT winning. How upset are you going to be if they end up with a decent record (good enough to get into the playoffs) but are only beating people by 3 or 4 points.

That philosophy works against the crappy teams. Do you think we can get away w/ scoring 3 FG's against teams like Minny, Dallass, Philly, and the Saints? lol.

Even if we did beat a few good teams by a score of, say 9-7, that type of offensive performance really puts the skins in a hole. It makes the skins so 1-dimensional and predictable that we simply cannot win too many games that way. That "MO" will be figured out by other coaches in a few weeks, MAX.

We wouldn't make it to the post season like that. I know defense wins championships but you have to be able to score to get to the post season.

[redskin_rich]

Will agree that this is a "Must" win game.
Here something to think about though - What if this is the Skins MO - barely winning games BUT winning. How upset are you going to be if they end up with a decent record (good enough to get into the playoffs) but are only beating people by 3 or 4 points.

They can barely win all the way to the Super Bowl but playing like they are, that ain't going to happen. While they barely win against terrible opponents, better teams will hang TD's and losses on the Skins.


Dj- I don't see this situation as lucky at all. I see it as a perfect ****storm. The Skins are notorious as of late of turning other teams fortunes and this weeks game couldn't have come at a worse time. No other game could screw the season as this one has the potential to.

[Ibleedburgundy]

Is there such a thing as a must win game for a team that isn't going to the playoffs?

[Moe]

I think it's psychologically a must win because nobody wants to be Detroit's slump buster, but being 1-2 is hardly a season defining spot to be in. That's not to say that I have much confidence in Zorn at the moment, but stranger things have happened.

Or maybe Zorn is a genius and he's just pulling a Milton Berle on us ;)

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

must have win,and more importantly,THEY NEED TO LOOK LIKE A PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL TEAM ALL THE WAY AROUND!!!!!!
they certainly did'nt look like much of one sunday!:smash::devil2:

[CarMike]

Will agree that this is a "Must" win game.
Here something to think about though - What if this is the Skins MO - barely winning games BUT winning. How upset are you going to be if they end up with a decent record (good enough to get into the playoffs) but are only beating people by 3 or 4 points.

Its all about the opponent. If we beat the good teams by 3 points, WONDERFUL. If we continue to beat the likes of the Rams/Lions by 3 points, well...you know the rest.

[GreenspanDan]

Agreed...Zorn is even clouding my memory. I recall Norv's offenses as incredibly dynamic, almost unstoppable at times...at least in comparison to this POS he calls an offensive scheme.

actually, that's not delusion. in 1998, the redskins scored 54 touchdowns and 444 total points. for context, last year we had 27 touchdowns and 267 points. that year we were the second-best offense in the league. first was the "greatest show on turf" st. louis rams (whom we actually out-gunned the following year head to head 33-20 in st louis). norv, for all his faults, knew how to score points.

[redskin_rich]

Is there such a thing as a must win game for a team that isn't going to the playoffs?
There is for a coach that wants to be coaching at least through this season. And for team that doesn't want to be loudly booed during pregame intros at the next home game or have their fans wearing brown bags over their heads.

[CarMike]

Will agree that this is a "Must" win game.
Here something to think about though - What if this is the Skins MO - barely winning games BUT winning. How upset are you going to be if they end up with a decent record (good enough to get into the playoffs) but are only beating people by 3 or 4 points.

They can barely win all the way to the Super Bowl but playing like they are, that ain't going to happen. While they barely win against terrible opponents, better teams will hang TD's and losses on the Skins.


Dj- I don't see this situation as lucky at all. I see it as a perfect ****storm. The Skins are notorious as of late of turning other teams fortunes and this weeks game couldn't have come at a worse time. No other game could screw the season as this one has the potential to.

You let the Redskins lose to Detroit. They think the fans were booing now? Just wait and see what happens at the next home game.

[GreenspanDan]

Is there such a thing as a must win game for a team that isn't going to the playoffs?

haha good point

[BurgundyNGold]

Title says it all and how pathetic is that? A 'should win' is now a 'must win' or all hell breaks loose. I can't remember a season hinging on a week 3 matchup with not only an inferior opponent but the worst non expansion team in the history of the NFL.

Memo to Zorn- Those shriveled balls of yours are in the vice and the buzzards are circling overhead. Take to heart some famous words from the late George Allen, "The future is now." Hold back nothing! No regrets!

Agree, disagree, agree to disagree? Discuss...
Great post. I literally LOL'd at this. And then I read your sig and LOL'd again.

[Ibleedburgundy]

There is for a coach that wants to be coaching at least through this season. And for team that doesn't want to be loudly booed during pregame intros at the next home game or have their fans wearing brown bags over their heads.

Oh yeah it's definitely must win for Zorn. For the Redskins, eh whatever. If Zorn is that bad, it's probably better for the team if they find that out now.

[Hr fan]

I am stuck here in Detroit and must tell ya'll that for the first time in 2 years the Lions, the local media, and the fans are looking forward to a game. On the radio there is much discussion about the Rams game, and glee is not well surpressed. The only good thing is tickets are available, and they have a $57 all-you-can-eat-and-derink (non-alcoholic) ticket. I have a strong feeling that I will need something stronger than coke or kool-aid, however.

I have a real bad feeling about this. After the Sonny/Zorn dustup it is clear that the players are not asked to buy into a scheme, only become mindless robots, on both O and D. The players can lip sync to platitudes all they want but I strongly suspect they gave up half way thru last year, and the lack of professiobalism, sloppy tackling, and bad results are a direct result of being run by idiots that will bench players for being right. For those of you who saw Ray Lewis game saving play, he wasn't supposed to do that in the D called. He got kudos, where on our team he would be bendhed. And we wonder in the face of such incompetence that there may be morale problems!

[redskin_rich]

Oh yeah it's definitely must win for Zorn. For the Redskins, eh whatever. If Zorn is that bad, it's probably better for the team if they find that out now.

Though I don't disagree with that sentiment, I have never and will never want the Skins to lose a game. I've jumped on people in the past who thought the Skins should tank for a better draft pick. Even if it's for the long term betterment of the team, I'm always shortsighted when it comes to wins and losses.

[oldskinfan]

It's almost better that this is an away game. The booing is expected.
Portis always seems a little quicker indoors on turf.

The players will find a way to win this game, but I think it will be the defense that does it.

I see something like 16-7, with a defensive TD and 3 FG's.

[Redskinmayhem]

The players will find a way to win this game, but I think it will be the defense that does it.

I think we're a more talented team than Det. That's not to say we will win the game (Any given Sunday), but I do believe we ARE the better team.

[CarMike]

Though I don't disagree with that sentiment, I have never and will never want the Skins to lose a game. I've jumped on people in the past who thought the Skins should tank for a better draft pick. Even if it's for the long term betterment of the team, I'm always shortsighted when it comes to wins and losses.

Yes rich has. I've seen it on many occasions.

[jaylen]

The Lions are getting the right opponent at the right time to get off the skid. We are tailormade to lose to them. We don't score play soft coverage hardly ever blitz all things that will relax a rookie qb and allow him to get his teams 1st victory and put Skins Nation in Def Con 5.

We lose this game the season is OVER as we know it it'll be one long string playing out if that happens. The Players will revolt on Zorn, fans will revolt on the team media will critique everything. It'll all fall apart.

That sounds irrational but gaining no confidence whatsoever from beating the Rams will lead to a butt clinching oh no feeling within the team if we fall behind in this game.

this game will have huge implications for the franchise as a whole.

[NamVet4]

I agree.. a critical game. However, I can't put on the B&G glasses... (I threw them at the screen during last weeks debacle of a "win"!)
I can only surmise that the frustration level of the fans is beginning to seep into the Front Office....

[Canuck]

this game will have huge implications for the franchise as a whole.

You know a team is in trouble when a week 3 game against team on a 19 game losing streak has huge implications.

The Skins need to show some signs of life and dominate this game.

[firehawk157]

You know a team is in trouble when a week 3 game against team on a 19 game losing streak has huge implications.

The Skins need to show some signs of life and dominate this game.

I can see a mid-season FO cleanse if we lose the game. Danny knows that is the only thing that will keep our entire fanbase from razing Fedex to the ground. Bring in a real hardnose coach like Grimm \and let them rebuild the FO and hope that hope will bring the fans in.

[HanburgerBum]

One can make the argument--as IBleed has--that a team which is likely to miss the playoffs has no "must" games.

But, if the Skins still harbor feelings about making the post-season, I think the next 4 games (Lions, Bucs, Panthers, Chiefs) plus one of the next two games (Eagles, Falcons) after that are all "must" wins. Wash would probably have to be no worse than 6-2 at the half-way point to have any shot at the playoffs. The second half schedule that includes Dallas (twice), NYG, Philly, New Orleans and San Diego is brutal.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Yes rich has. I've seen it on many occasions.

He's right to do so. With a competent FO, tanking games for better picks could actually be a good idea. With the current one, it would only translate to throwing away more money for a higher pick-bust.

[smoak]

Will agree that this is a "Must" win game.
Here something to think about though - What if this is the Skins MO - barely winning games BUT winning. How upset are you going to be if they end up with a decent record (good enough to get into the playoffs) but are only beating people by 3 or 4 points.

[1] complete agreement it is "must win" as was the rams game IMO. Regardless of my beliefs, I think the crowd gets UGLY I'd the redskins lose either of the next two.

[2] I really couldn't disagree more with the notion that they need to "win convincingly" or score a certain number of points. It's silly IMO as there are no style points awarded in the NfL... But the team needs to win in such a way that they are "convinced" if their ability to compete (slight difference)... I think we are walking into a buzz saw with coach (billy) Madison at the helm.

Just Wynn baby!!!

[skinsfan36]

this is a must win!
for us fans number 1.(this is not selfish,well maybe it is).
but i work in retail and have to go into public and the lions have not one since 2007.
zorn must win or hes gone by the bye week.

and if we have any snowballs chance in going 10-6 we must win this game . and all the games against inferior talented teams

[shally]

Title says it all and how pathetic is that? A 'should win' is now a 'must win' or all hell breaks loose. I can't remember a season hinging on a week 3 matchup with not only an inferior opponent but the worst non expansion team in the history of the NFL.

Memo to Zorn- Those shriveled balls of yours are in the vice and the buzzards are circling overhead. Take to heart some famous words from the late George Allen, "The future is now." Hold back nothing! No regrets!

Agree, disagree, agree to disagree? Discuss...

biggest game by far, of zorn's career.. a loss here and it all starts to unravel.. dont think the players dont know that

[give_portis_the_rock]

The Lions are gonna have to win some time... let's just hope it's not against us

Just Wynn baby!!!

PLEASE no...

[shally]

The Lions are gonna have to win some time... let's just hope it's not against us



PLEASE no...

no question, they will win this year.. we are the ideal opponent for them since we cant score

i dont think our defense is any better than Minny's and our offense isnt close

[MadDog97]

no question, they will win this year.. we are the ideal opponent for them since we cant score

i dont htink our defense is any better than Minny's and our offense isnt close

I agree we are the prime candidates because we cannot score. Add to that a sorry offensive line and a defense that is solid but will give up a big play and Detroit knows we are the best shot at a win.

[shally]

I agree we are the prime candidates because we cannot score. Add to that a sorry offensive line and a defense that is solid but will give up a big play and Detroit knows we are the best shot at a win.

i think the only way we win, is if we are "+" in turnover ratio.. if stafford throws picks, and they fumble the ball, we will win.. if it is even, we are going down

[Skins-fo-life]

I hate to say it but Detroit will score eventually. More than likely it will be Calvin Johnson scoring. We need to put up points against their poor defense that looks to be without Ernie Sims or Zorn may not survive the plane ride back to DC. A loss here would be on of the most embarassing moments for this team ever. (I still think the lost to Dallas giving them their only win in Aikmans rookie year was pretty embarassing though). However Zorn needs to have this group ready to come out and destroy Detroit. Thats all I got on that.

[Biggie]

I think we're a more talented team than Det. That's not to say we will win the game (Any given Sunday), but I do believe we ARE the better team.
Having a better team than Detroit is not an accomplishment. It is a given.

[cal_junior]

It's really amazing how this sport works.

I keep wondering what a thread like this would sound like if Thomas and Sellers hold onto to relatively easy TD catches and Jarmon doesn't lightly toss the QB to the ground.

The Skins were a hair away from a 17-0 or 21-0 lead midway through the second quarter. If that happens I think the Rams go away early and the tone of the base is a little different.

But as they say: "If Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts . . . "

[shally]

It's really amazing how this sport works.

I keep wondering what a thread like this would sound like if Thomas and Sellers hold onto to relatively easy TD catches and Jarmon doesn't lightly toss the QB to the ground.

The Skins were a hair away from a 17-0 or 21-0 lead midway through the second quarter. If that happens I think the Rams go away early and the tone of the base is a little different.

But as they say: "If Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts . . . "

but that is the real story of this franchise now for 10 years.. a play here, a play there and it always turns out to work against anything ever being easy..
even when we win, it is always a struggle...

[cal_junior]

but that is the real story of this franchise now for 10 years.. a play here, a play there and it always turns out to work against anything ever being easy..
even when we win, it is always a struggle...

That's what, 5-6 different head coaches? Kinda makes you think the coaching staffs haven't been the problem

The trend on this board over the past few weeks has been to rip Zorn as a miserable offensive mind. I'm thinking Zorny might all of a sudden be an offensive genius if he was coaching in a few different cities.

Perhaps it's hard for any group of coaches and players to consistently win when there isn't competency with respect to drafting players and signing free agents.

But lets's fire Zorn ASAP. I'm sure things will get better once he's gone . . .

[SpicyMcHaggis]

[1] complete agreement it is "must win" as was the rams game IMO. Regardless of my beliefs, I think the crowd gets UGLY I'd the redskins lose either of the next two.

[2] I really couldn't disagree more with the notion that they need to "win convincingly" or score a certain number of points. It's silly IMO as there are no style points awarded in the NfL... But the team needs to win in such a way that they are "convinced" if their ability to compete (slight difference)... I think we are walking into a buzz saw with coach (billy) Madison at the helm.

Just Wynn baby!!!
It's not a matter of style points, it's a matter pf proving that you are a good team. You aren't a good team if you beat a horrible one by two points at home without scoring a TD, nor are you one if you beat one that hasn't won since I was in high school on a last second FG. That might be nice since it gets you to 2-1 or to 4-2 or even to 6-2, but as we've seen time and time again in these last few years, those early records are simply worthless because they are based on nothing really...once december comes along and the really good teams come to play, they will beat you, and beat you convincingly, so that winning record immediately turns into a 9-7 or an 8-8 or a 5-11.
In essence, the old saying "a win is a win" is a load of crap. It might apply in the last game of the season, or in the playoffs, or against a division rival, but at some point you have to go out there and prove you are capable of being an efficient, organized, even dominant team on both sides of the ball to hope to make some noise in the playoffs. If not, you will do what we have done these past few years...either watch the playoffs on TV or be thoroughly beaten by a vastly superior opponent in the first or second round. And they don't give any medals for making the wild card or the divisional round of the playoffs.

[Skin-E-Dip]

I have so many emotions about this game. On the one hand I of course want the Skins to win but this is as close to a college game as the Skins have ever played. Not only do they need to win but they need to win significantly if jobs are going to be secure for another season. Another 9-7 like game might help Zorn finish the season, but he will definitely be gone when its over...and possibly the same for Campbell.

Then again, since I currently have no faith in Zorn as a competent offensive coach, I wonder if the loss would create an immediate ouster of Zorn and bring in a new captain from inside or outside the organization with some clue of how to use the pretty good talent we have on this team.

So this will definitely be an extremely important game for the future of this team.

[cal_junior]

So this will definitely be an extremely important game for the future of this team.

So your stance is that if the Skins beat the Lions - losers of 19 consecutive football game - by 20 points or so then the future of the team will be put into clearer focus for you?

I could not disagree more, to put it mildly. Only a loss has much meaning this weekend. If the team looks great, it will look great against an awful opponent.

It would certainly make sense for everybody to wait until at least Week 5 or 6 before making their proclamations about who does or doesn't know how to coach/run/throw/catch, but I suppose that would make too much sense . . .

[smoak]

It's not a matter of style points, it's a matter pf proving that you are a good team. You aren't a good team if you beat a horrible one by two points at home without scoring a TD, nor are you one if you beat one that hasn't won since I was in high school on a last second FG. That might be nice since it gets you to 2-1 or to 4-2 or even to 6-2, but as we've seen time and time again in these last few years, those early records are simply worthless because they are based on nothing really...once december comes along and the really good teams come to play, they will beat you, and beat you convincingly, so that winning record immediately turns into a 9-7 or an 8-8 or a 5-11.
In essence, the old saying "a win is a win" is a load of crap. It might apply in the last game of the season, or in the playoffs, or against a division rival, but at some point you have to go out there and prove you are capable of being an efficient, organized, even dominant team on both sides of the ball to hope to make some noise in the playoffs. If not, you will do what we have done these past few years...either watch the playoffs on TV or be thoroughly beaten by a vastly superior opponent in the first or second round. And they don't give any medals for making the wild card or the divisional round of the playoffs.

but this isn't a playoff caliber team??? I'd understand your point better if we were odds on favorite for the super bowl.

My reality is that I care more about HOW the team plays than if they win by alot. Little things can be fixed, but what depressed me Sunday is that I went from being worried as he'll about our coach to being certain he isn't cut out for NFL gig. He should go cut his teeth in Europe.

I am scared to death of the lions... LIONS!!?? Because our coach and FO aren't capable.

[Canuck]

but this isn't a playoff caliber team??? I'd understand your point better if we were odds on favorite for the super bowl.

My reality is that I care more about HOW the team plays than if they win by alot. Little things can be fixed, but what depressed me Sunday is that I went from being worried as he'll about our coach to being certain he isn't cut out for NFL gig. He should go cut his teeth in Europe.

I am scared to death of the lions... LIONS!!?? Because our coach and FO aren't capable.

+1

If we were a playoff caliber team we wouldn't even be sweating this game.

[Moe]

That's what, 5-6 different head coaches? Kinda makes you think the coaching staffs haven't been the problem

The trend on this board over the past few weeks has been to rip Zorn as a miserable offensive mind. I'm thinking Zorny might all of a sudden be an offensive genius if he was coaching in a few different cities.

Perhaps it's hard for any group of coaches and players to consistently win when there isn't competency with respect to drafting players and signing free agents.

But lets's fire Zorn ASAP. I'm sure things will get better once he's gone . . .

Word.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

but this isn't a playoff caliber team??? I'd understand your point better if we were odds on favorite for the super bowl.

Exactly. So it's either one of two things: either we don't have "must win" games since all hope is lost, or we prove that we are one by playing like a playoff caliber team, and not sneaking out wins against pathetic teams.

My reality is that I care more about HOW the team plays than if they win by alot. Little things can be fixed, but what depressed me Sunday is that I went from being worried as he'll about our coach to being certain he isn't cut out for NFL gig. He should go cut his teeth in Europe.

I am scared to death of the lions... LIONS!!?? Because our coach and FO aren't capable.
Well then essentially we agree. :) When I refer to a convincing win I am referring more to how we play than by how much we win. For example, I thought the Giants' win against us was pretty convincing, even though they only beat us by a handful of points (and they confirmed my opinion the following weak by beating Dallas in Dallas).

[redskin_rich]

It's really amazing how this sport works.

I keep wondering what a thread like this would sound like if Thomas and Sellers hold onto to relatively easy TD catches and Jarmon doesn't lightly toss the QB to the ground.

The Skins were a hair away from a 17-0 or 21-0 lead midway through the second quarter. If that happens I think the Rams go away early and the tone of the base is a little different.

But as they say: "If Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts . . . "Here's an 'if' for you: If the Skins lose this game, they take over the mantle of most pathetic franchise in the NFL.

That's what, 5-6 different head coaches? Kinda makes you think the coaching staffs haven't been the problem

The trend on this board over the past few weeks has been to rip Zorn as a miserable offensive mind. I'm thinking Zorny might all of a sudden be an offensive genius if he was coaching in a few different cities.

Perhaps it's hard for any group of coaches and players to consistently win when there isn't competency with respect to drafting players and signing free agents.

But lets's fire Zorn ASAP. I'm sure things will get better once he's gone . . .
Hey Sherlock, this very point is discussed in the "How long will Zorn last" thread. Maybe you should read that and comment there, though, your condescension won't play as well.

[Hr fan]

Exactly. So it's either one of two things: either we don't have "must win" games since all hope is lost, or we prove that we are one by playing like a playoff caliber team, and not sneaking out wins against pathetic teams.

Well then essentially we agree. :) When I refer to a convincing win I am referring more to how we play than by how much we win. For example, I thought the Giants' win against us was pretty convincing, even though they only beat us by a handful of points (and they confirmed my opinion the following weak by beating Dallas in Dallas).

Or how much we begin acting like a team, with passion and professionalism. The talent gap between the teams is large. So are the confidence and buy-into-the-system gaps - favoring Detroit (just like these gaps favored the Rams). Our coaches want automatons (I'd bench Jurgy or JC (Zorn), I don't want to create pressure on the passer so play 7-10 yards off (Blache)). If any one of us were a player what level of confidence that our talent would be used correctly would we have? What would our confidence level be? Can we see the tatters that we call an Oline and have belief?

IMO we have major morale problems and there is no personality on the scene capable of pulling this together and establishing a changed corporate culture.

[shally]

Or how much we begin acting like a team, with passion and professionalism. The talent gap between the teams is large. So are the confidence and buy-into-the-system gaps - favoring Detroit (just like these gaps favored the Rams). Our coaches want automatons (I'd bench Jurgy or JC (Zorn), I don't want to create pressure on the passer so play 7-10 yards off (Blache)). If any one of us were a player what level of confidence that our talent would be used correctly would we have? What would our confidence level be? Can we see the tatters that we call an Oline and have belief?

IMO we have major morale problems and there is no personality on the scene capable of pulling this together and establishing a changed corporate culture.

i dont think we have morale problems YET.. we are dysfunctional for sure, and as the losses pile up, morale will deteriorate for certain.. but, as of this point neither Zorn nor Blache have lost the team

[cal_junior]

Here's an 'if' for you: If the Skins lose this game, they take over the mantle of most pathetic franchise in the NFL.

Ah, no. The sky isn't falling quite that hard, chicken little.

And I think condescension is called for in this situation. Some of the very same folks who were falling all over themselves about how great Zorn was after five games last season, now want him fired after two games this season. That's just insane.

And Zorn is relevant in this thread because several folks have mentioned his job security as one of the reasons this is such a 'must-win' game.

My point is that since Snyder has taken over it doesn't seem to matter who the coach is, the franchise can't win consistently. Any fan that wants a first-time HC/first-time OC fired after 19 games doesn't understant the way this works.

[redskin_rich]

Ah, no. The sky isn't falling quite that hard, chicken little.

And I think condescension is called for in this situation. Some of the very same folks who were falling all over themselves about how great Zorn was after five games last season, now want him fired after two games this season. That's just insane.

And Zorn is relevant in this thread because several folks have mentioned his job security as one of the reasons this is such a 'must-win' game.

My point is that since Snyder has taken over it doesn't seem to matter who the coach is, the franchise can't win consistently. Any fan that wants a first-time HC/first-time OC fired after 19 games doesn't understant the way this works.Better carry an umbrella, Pollyanna.

It doesn't matter if a lot of fans liked Zorn at first, the bottom line is once the rest of the league figured him out, he has failed to adjust. He actually seems to be regressing. Zorn has no job security, it is not a matter of if, just when he gets fired.

And again, lots of us have been stating that it doesn't matter who the coach is, as long as Snyder meddles and keeps Vinny around. That's not exactly insightful to anyone who follows the team.

Everyone with more than three brain cells knew the biggest reason for last seasons collapse was that the O-Line wore down and had no depth. As GM, Vinny failed to address that adequately. As HC, Zorn failed to petition for decent help there. Meanwhile, the Skins keep giving Blache more toys to misuse.

So back to the thread, we lose this week and we are the laughingstock of the NFL. Somebodies neck will have to go over the chopping block.

[dj_stouty]

So back to the thread, we lose this week and we are the laughingstock of the NFL.

We already are the laughing stock of the NFL. Many members of the media are already picking Detroit for the upset.

[redskin_rich]

We already are the laughing stock of the NFL. Many members of the media are already picking Detroit for the upset.

We lose this week, we will have earned that designation.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

We already are the laughing stock of the NFL. Many members of the media are already picking Detroit for the upset.

Your sentence alone proves we are not there yet since picking Detroit would still be considered a "upset", but we can slide to the bottom very quickly.

Then again, beat Detroit, win these other winnable games going into the bye, and everything turns around just as quick.

I need to see more to be convinced this team can achieve anything.

[Algonkian]

We really need Todd Collins back not to lose this game.

[bergiemoore]

We really need Todd Collins back not to lose this game.

That is perhaps the saddest statement I've heard in a long time.

[Hr fan]

i dont think we have morale problems YET.. we are dysfunctional for sure, and as the losses pile up, morale will deteriorate for certain.. but, as of this point neither Zorn nor Blache have lost the team

You play to win the game. When a number of players realize that they will need luck to beat even inferior opponents there will be morale problems. So we agree to a point. The difference is that I believe that looking at the obvious holes and the proven futility of the O and D schemes at critical junctures that this team was dispirited before ps.

Who can believe that Randy was going to last a whole season? Who can look at the Heyer/Williams/Reinhart/Montgomery performance resumes and believe that the right side of the O line is anything but a disaster area when Randy would go down? Who can look at Thomas and Davis and think help will come from this source? Who can look at 3rd and 3 with 7-10 yard cushions ordered and believe that a stop baring an opponent goof is possible? Who can believe that this is a come-from-behind team? Who could look at the division teams and believe we are better than fourth without the aid of
kool-aid? Where are the best players (eg, Moss and Landry)?

You get the idea. When everybody from professional NFL men to pundits see that our Oline is the problem and the team's management does nothing, and worse in the face of disaster are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic for the right side of the Oline, players can not feel that they have a reasonable chance to win IMO. Bring back Aldrige instead of get a vet OL? And when you don't feel that you can win and start going through the motions (not all players, but winning takes everybody) morale problems are inevitable. I just think the players saw the unreal management and the morale problems started already. Just my opinion.

[shally]

You play to win the game. When a number of players realize that they will need luck to beat even inferior opponents there will be morale problems. So we agree to a point. The difference is that I believe that looking at the obvious holes and the proven futility of the O and D schemes at critical junctures that this team was dispirited before ps.

Who can believe that Randy was going to last a whole season? Who can look at the Heyer/Williams/Reinhart/Montgomery performance resumes and believe that the right side of the O line is anything but a disaster area when Randy would go down? Who can look at Thomas and Davis and think help will come from this source? Who can look at 3rd and 3 with 7-10 yard cushions ordered and believe that a stop baring an opponent goof is possible? Who can believe that this is a come-from-behind team? Who could look at the division teams and believe we are better than fourth without the aid of
kool-aid? Where are the best players (eg, Moss and Landry)?

You get the idea. When everybody from professional NFL men to pundits see that our Oline is the problem and the team's management does nothing, and worse in the face of disaster are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic for the right side of the Oline, players can not feel that they have a reasonable chance to win IMO. Bring back Aldrige instead of get a vet OL? And when you don't feel that you can win and start going through the motions (not all players, but winning takes everybody) morale problems are inevitable. I just think the players saw the unreal management and the morale problems started already. Just my opinion.

maybe.. but it is still early enough in the season that guys are totally focused on their jobs

[Hr fan]

maybe.. but it is still early enough in the season that guys are totally focused on their jobs

Agree. Just feel that the approach is professional but not passionate.

[smoak]

Exactly. So it's either one of two things: either we don't have "must win" games since all hope is lost, or we prove that we are one by playing like a playoff caliber team, and not sneaking out wins against pathetic teams.

Well then essentially we agree. :) When I refer to a convincing win I am referring more to how we play than by how much we win. For example, I thought the Giants' win against us was pretty convincing, even though they only beat us by a handful of points (and they confirmed my opinion the following weak by beating Dallas in Dallas).

We are on the exact same page. I think in many ways we "convincingly" beat the Rams. They broke down inside the 10 too many times to excuse it, but I like our offense between the 20s.

My biggest beef is really zorn. I just feel like the constant mental errors become the fault of the coach if they are tolerated over a period of time. Maybe Zorn cracks some heads in practice this week, but somehow I don't think so.

[skinsfan36]

We are on the exact same page. I think in many ways we "convincingly" beat the Rams. They broke down inside the 10 too many times to excuse it, but I like our offense between the 20s.

My biggest beef is really zorn. I just feel like the constant mental errors become the fault of the coach if they are tolerated over a period of time. Maybe Zorn cracks some heads in practice this week, but somehow I don't think so.

lol maybe danny smith can do that for him after he explains clock management to him

[shally]

lol maybe danny smith can do that for him after he explains clock management to him

and isnt THAT sad ???

[skinsfan36]

and isnt THAT sad ???

yes it was. you would think that he would have that one skill being a former qb

[redskin_rich]

yes it was. you would think that he would have that one skill being a former qb
Play clock was longer then and didn't start up as fast. Also, by the time Zorn was winning games, he was well seasoned as a QB. Not an excuse, as he has been working in this league throughout the changes. I think he was just caught up in his miserable play calling. No doubt, he is in over his head.

Let's not forget that a certain HOF coach also recently struggled with clock management and the rules on calling time outs.

[give_portis_the_rock]

Let's not forget that a certain HOF coach also recently struggled with clock management and the rules on calling time outs.

Yeah I remember that...
More than anything I remember the reaction (i.e. a lot of people treating Coach Gibbs like a senile old man)

[shally]

Play clock was longer then and didn't start up as fast. Also, by the time Zorn was winning games, he was well seasoned as a QB. Not an excuse, as he has been working in this league throughout the changes. I think he was just caught up in his miserable play calling. No doubt, he is in over his head.

Let's not forget that a certain HOF coach also recently struggled with clock management and the rules on calling time outs.

very true..gibbs2.0 wasnt the same coach and the results proved it

[Skin-E-Dip]

Ok so this was a MUST WIN and we laid a great big stinker...this team is consistent and WILL NOT CHANGE under current leadership.

Congrats, we are now the official team that everyone else will see on their calendar and circle as a win.

[give_portis_the_rock]

Well... we lost

I am not worried about this in the historical context because no one will remember who broke the Lions losing streak (who here can name the team that broke Tampa Bay's losing streak in 77?). I didn't even consider this a must-win for this season, because it's Week 3.

The problem with this team is that no matter who we play, it's a struggle. Every win and every loss seems to be accidental.

For now, my opinion of the team hasn't changed. If we lose next week to Tampa then I might get worried.

[native skin]

It's [Skins] flag burning day!

[SpicyMcHaggis]

Well... we lost

I am not worried about this in the historical context because no one will remember who broke the Lions losing streak (who here can name the team that broke Tampa Bay's losing streak in 77?). I didn't even consider this a must-win for this season, because it's Week 3.

The problem with this team is that no matter who we play, it's a struggle. Every win and every loss seems to be accidental.

For now, my opinion of the team hasn't changed. If we lose next week to Tampa then I might get worried.

Neither has mine. We sucked before, and we suck now. If your opinion is anything different, well then I'm sorry but you are simply choosing to ignore reality.

[Skin-E-Dip]

Neither has mine. We sucked before, and we suck now. If your opinion is anything different, well then I'm sorry but you are simply choosing to ignore reality.


this is especially true for those nieve enought to think that how terrible a team looks in preseason means nothing. What you have been seeing is what you will continue to see unless there is a major change. I actually think with an aggressive coach and game plan, Campbell could put up top ten numbers. But he has been stuck in dink and dunk hell.

[redskin_rich]

Ah, no. The sky isn't falling quite that hard, chicken little.



Better carry an umbrella, Pollyanna.



Yo! Cal_jr, where are you? Come on out of your fallout shelter and give us some more of you superior wisdom.

[give_portis_the_rock]

Neither has mine. We sucked before, and we suck now. If your opinion is anything different, well then I'm sorry but you are simply choosing to ignore reality.

It depends on your definition of suck

I think some of yall are under the impression that we are a laughing stock, which simply isn't the case if you go by win-loss record. We have been mediocre for many years, sure. But are we as bad as Oakland? Or Detroit? Naaaah. Of course the Skins are gonna seem like the worst team in the league to us because they are under the closest scrutiny from us. But there are many much worse teams.

[redskin_rich]

It depends on your definition of suck

I think some of yall are under the impression that we are a laughing stock, which simply isn't the case if you go by win-loss record. We have been mediocre for many years, sure. But are we as bad as Oakland? Or Detroit? Naaaah. Of course the Skins are gonna seem like the worst team in the league to us because they are under the closest scrutiny from us. But there are many much worse teams.

Step back from the kool-aid bowl. Who sucks worse than us? What team will definitely have a new coach, new QB, new system, etc, next year if not next week?

[give_portis_the_rock]

Step back from the kool-aid bowl. Who sucks worse than us? What team will definitely have a new coach, new QB, new system, etc, next year if not next week?

You can't go based on that. San Diego sacked their coach after a 14-2 season in 2006.

Looking at win-loss record in the past 10 years, years without a playoff appearance, and years without a playoff win, we are nowhere near the bottom of the league.

And I'm sipping kool aid just because I think the Lions, Raiders, Chiefs, Bills, and Browns are worse than us??? OK...

I never claimed we were world-beaters. Just that we're not the worst team in the league.

[Fathead]

The Lions are better than us. They proved that today. We'll find out about the chiefs and raiders.

[redskin_rich]

You can't go based on that. San Diego sacked their coach after a 14-2 season in 2006.

Looking at win-loss record in the past 10 years, years without a playoff appearance, and years without a playoff win, we are nowhere near the bottom of the league.

And I'm sipping kool aid just because I think the Lions, Raiders, Chiefs, Bills, and Browns are worse than us??? OK...

I never claimed we were world-beaters. Just that we're not the worst team in the league.
Yo brotha, the Lions just beat us. You cannot claim superiority over a team that just beat you. Said team was the worst non-expansion team in the history of the NFL.

You know that only two teams in the NFL have not reached the Championship game since the '92 NFC Championship between the Skins and the Lions? Take a guess at the two teams.

[Fathead]

Yo brotha, the Lions just beat us. You cannot claim superiority over a team that just beat you. Said team was the worst non-expansion team in the history of the NFL.

You know that only two teams in the NFL have not reached the Championship game since the '92 NFC Championship between the Skins and the Lions? Take a guess at the two teams.

You mean NFC teams. The Bungles haven't either.

[redskin_rich]

You mean NFC teams. The Bungles haven't either.

My bad. I watched the Bungals today, btw. They looked like a team that has a chance.

[SpicyMcHaggis]

You can't go based on that. San Diego sacked their coach after a 14-2 season in 2006.

Looking at win-loss record in the past 10 years, years without a playoff appearance, and years without a playoff win, we are nowhere near the bottom of the league.

And I'm sipping kool aid just because I think the Lions, Raiders, Chiefs, Bills, and Browns are worse than us??? OK...

I never claimed we were world-beaters. Just that we're not the worst team in the league.

Ah, yes...now I am comforted. We are NOT the worst team in the league. WOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! GO SKINS!!!!

[Hr fan]

Ah, yes...now I am comforted. We are NOT the worst team in the league. WOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! GO SKINS!!!!

To amplify we are not the worst team in the league because we are not a team. His argument seems to be that we are not the least talented (I agree), and that this will lead to Ws (I disagree). The results speak for themselves - in no game this year have we been what the OED would define as a "team".

[brettsky991]

I didn't see anyone on the Redskins sideline yelling, getting in someone's face, throwing anything. They just sat there like "darn, were losing" "when do we get paid again" I was more angry than Zorn or anybody else I saw. Maybe things were said in the huddle, but not by their actions. Heck, I was ready to throw the remote thu the TV.

[akhhorus]

Because they've...

....quit and...

....see the writing on the wall...

[brettsky991]

Because they've...

....quit and...

....see the writing on the wall...

Sad sad situation.

[Hr fan]

Indeed. The whole organization is dysfunctional, as Tony Dungy pointed out. His solution - hire a GM and let him clean house. But it goes deeper. When Hall and Haynesworth say there is no team, and certain players aren't trying, rot is so deep that even good players will quit.

Can this situation be turned while Snyder owns the team? While I don't think so it is possible. The first step is firing Vinnie and hiring a GM - if he can convince someone qualified to come into his lying, players going around the org to the owner, personnel and draft interfering house. He is a good salesman it is said, so there is some (slight) hope.

[smoak]

That is perhaps the saddest statement I've heard in a long time.

Not to mention (IMO), inaccurate. Zorn, take the gloves off in the red zone and let JC calls the plays. Who cares if he fails. We're alreaady failing.