doughty in. horton out

[warpaint]

according to the washinton times

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/redskins/2009/oct/01/doughty-in-horton-out/

[akhhorus]

So...Blache's reaction to the vultures circling him is to bench one of the few players playing hard(and making plays) for him?

[CarMike]

Oh. My. Goodness.

[shally]

So...Blache's reaction to the vultures circling him is to bench one of the few players playing hard(and making plays) for him?

couple of things..

horton has been out of position, and although he tackles well, NOBODY has been tackling better than doughty

doughty is a liability in coverage because of talent, but not mental issues
horton has been a liability in coverage solely because of mental issues.
he has all the tools, but has made mistakes.. the PI call was a perfect example of that. taking a horrible angle against stephen jackson was another (even though this wasnt a pass play)

the larger issue is "where is Moore" in all this process ? again, you have a guy who has all the physical tools you could ever want to play the free safety position.. but he cant crack the lineup .. why ? it is not that landry is playing so well, he isnt.. it is that Moore, apparently, still does not get the mental aspects of his position either

right now, i see little downside to playing doughty more until Horton and Moore get some consistency in their game

[akhhorus]

couple of things..

horton has been out of position, and although he tackles well, NOBODY has been tackling better than doughty

doughty is a liability in coverage because of talent, but not mental issues
horton has been a liability in coverage solely because of mental issues.
he has all the tools, but has made mistakes.. the PI call was a perfect example of that. taking a horrible angle against stephen jackson was another


Horton shouldn't be asked to cover a 6-4 WR that Smoot or Rogers let go to the safety(and while he interfered on that play, his coverage was actually decent). Instead of Horton back there interfering with the WR, we'll have Doughty running as fast as he can to try and catch up with the WR running to the end zone. Sounds like we're moving from "death by fire" to "death by water" lol.

The problem is stil Blache's dumbass scheme where he asks strong safeties to cover WRs. And Blache is scapegoating Horton for his own(Blache's) terrible personnel decisions which have led to the defense looking rather pathetic.

The problem is still scheme. right now, i see little downside to playing doughty more until Horton and Moore get some consistency in their game

I'll remind you of this statement when Doughty gives up a ton of 3rd down receptions lol. If neither one can cover, play Smoot as the 2nd safety for a big nickel package. Doughty has played well in a 3rd safety role, but asking him to be a starter is asking for trouble.

[hogs86]

I like this the best.

Blache didn't disclose any other personnel moves but hinted other changes could be happening.

Blache also said he needs to become more of a "maverick ... a riverboat gambler."

Translation: I think coach Jim Zorn had a chat with Blache this week and told him the defense needs a jolt of aggressiveness.

[shally]

Horton shouldn't be asked to cover a 6-4 WR that Smoot or Rogers let go to the safety(and while he interfered on that play, his coverage was actually decent). Instead of Horton back there interfering with the WR, we'll have Doughty running as fast as he can to try and catch up with the WR running to the end zone. Sounds like we're moving from "death by fire" to "death by water" lol.

The problem is stil Blache's dumbass scheme where he asks strong safeties to cover WRs. And Blache is scapegoating Horton for his own(Blache's) terrible personnel decisions which have led to the defense looking rather pathetic.



I'll remind you of this statement when Doughty gives up a ton of 3rd down receptions lol. If neither one can cover, play Smoot as the 2nd safety for a big nickel package. Doughty has played well in a 3rd safety role, but asking him to be a starter is asking for trouble.

we are giving up a ton of third down passes as it is.. the lions were running at a 75 % clip through most of last weeks game..

smoot is dreadful.. honestly, i would play either tryon or westbrook over him (probably the latter) and give a lot of thought to letting Barnes take his lumps and learn the pro game.. sooner or later, it will pay dividends..

and i totally agree with you about Blache's schemes

by the way, did you notice that the Saints players game GWilliams the game ball for his schemes that allowed the defense to make Edwards life miserable due to all the PRESSURE overwhelming him ? i will need a helping of crow if Williams continues to rehab his reputation as a superior defensive mind.. clealry, he understands pressure far better than blache ever could

[WinnpegSkinsFan]

I like this the best.

Blache didn't disclose any other personnel moves but hinted other changes could be happening.

Blache also said he needs to become more of a "maverick ... a riverboat gambler."

Translation: I think coach Jim Zorn had a chat with Blache this week and told him the defense needs a jolt of aggressiveness.

If there's any team we should be agressive against it's the struggling Bucs. A QB that is starting his first game and a generally horrible offense. Kinda sounds like the Lions .... OH WAIT!!

[jaylen]

more bullcrap Douthy is atypical of the only type of player Blache likes. Players with limited ability who follow the coaches orders to a T that never play on instinct and who if they mess up has an ally in Blache who will say its my fault if they screw up. Horton plays on instinct tries anticipating things at times which causes problems occasionally but also makes big plays as well. Blache can;t control Horton's mind so he'll throw him under the bus when we falter.

Problem is Douthy will be physically whipped week in and week out and the coach will cover this up not by starting Horton again but playing him more snaps than he played Douthy. and never actually throwing Douthy under the bus.

This is why Moore won't play same thing as Horton the coach doesn't want guys playing on instinct. Its why Landry plays 30 yards deep and is never heard from in games.

I'm deathly afraid that Blache may ruin Orakpo if we don't hurry up and dump Blache. Having the man learn a totaly new position at the NFL level eschewing the thing he does best.

I'm more than convinced that Sean Taylor would not have been able to play for Blache had he lived or he'd have strangled Blache one.

[shally]

If there's any team we should be agressive against it's the struggling Bucs. A QB that is starting his first game and a generally horrible offense. Kinda sounds like the Lions .... OH WAIT!!

difference is that Stafford is light year's better talent-wise than Johnson.. then again, that probably wont matter against Blache's defense

[CNYSkinFan]

AND THIS is why i was hoping Soughty would be cut, because the coaches STILL try to pretend he is more then he is. He is a speciakl teams player only, not a position player. Why is Kareem Moore been benched? I still say our best package has yet to hit the field and that is Kareem as the free (deep) safety with Landry as the strong safety and horton coming in on cobra packages.

Get ready to see TEs and WRs crossing over the deep middle with little doughty struggling to keep up

[BraveHeartFan]

I have to say I don't like this at all. This is a poor decision. I'm actually a fan of Horton. I think he's a good player whose young and will only get better with experience. I don't like this move at all. The only way I'd like it is if Dallas were playing you guys this weekend so we could take advantage of that poor decision. By the time we play you they'll have put Horton back in.

[akhhorus]

The only remotely logical explanation for this move that I could think up is this: Blache sees the writing on the wall about his future, even in the short term, in DC. If the Skins' defense looks better against Tampa(regardless of the fact that they're going against a QB making his first start), Blache will take credit for making "the changes" that sparked the better performance. If Tampa's offense runs all over the skins' defense, Blache will probably be gone anyways at the bye regardless of what he does.

[Sweepea436]

It seems like they're moving closer to the "Try not to lose games" mentality than they are the "Try to win games" mentality. You have to take chances to win games. I dont remember too many momentum changing "hold them to a field goal instead of a TD" moments. I remember lots of of momentum changing picks and monster hits. Not necessarily from US..... just in general.

[oldskinfan]

In another great blog post, Steinberg quotes George Michael as saying Snyder really wants to stick to Zorn.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/10/george_michael_on_why_fans_hat.html#more

If you think about it, with all the FA money spent on DEFENSE this offseason, it's possible if the D tanks, it could be Blache that is fired with Gray or Olivadotti taking over with orders to do more blitzing.

[BurgundyNGold]

Horton shouldn't be asked to cover a 6-4 WR that Smoot or Rogers let go to the safety(and while he interfered on that play, his coverage was actually decent). Instead of Horton back there interfering with the WR, we'll have Doughty running as fast as he can to try and catch up with the WR running to the end zone. Sounds like we're moving from "death by fire" to "death by water" lol.

The problem is stil Blache's dumbass scheme where he asks strong safeties to cover WRs. And Blache is scapegoating Horton for his own(Blache's) terrible personnel decisions which have led to the defense looking rather pathetic.



I'll remind you of this statement when Doughty gives up a ton of 3rd down receptions lol. If neither one can cover, play Smoot as the 2nd safety for a big nickel package. Doughty has played well in a 3rd safety role, but asking him to be a starter is asking for trouble.
+987468975236452

[Biggie]

I mean, Doughty's looked really good against the run lately, but he wasn't playing coverage. I agree with getting him on the field near the LOS, but not at Horton's expense.

[Moe]

I like this the best.

Blache didn't disclose any other personnel moves but hinted other changes could be happening.

Blache also said he needs to become more of a "maverick ... a riverboat gambler."

Translation: I think coach Jim Zorn had a chat with Blache this week and told him the defense needs a jolt of aggressiveness.

Heard on the radio this am that Zorn and Blache did indeed meet to talk about the defense and that Zorn expressed some desire for them to be more aggressive. Guess we'll see.

As far as the Doughty for Horton sub goes, I'm not totally against it. Sometimes it can be highly beneficial for a young player to step away and reset himself mentally. Doughty has been effective in the traditional SS role to this point, and with the Bucs likely to lean on the running game (and the run D needing an injection of life anyway), I don't think this is that big of a deal. The underlying implication is that Horton will regain that spot assuming he corrects his mistakes.

[BurgundyNGold]

AND THIS is why i was hoping Soughty would be cut, because the coaches STILL try to pretend he is more then he is. He is a speciakl teams player only, not a position player. Why is Kareem Moore been benched? I still say our best package has yet to hit the field and that is Kareem as the free (deep) safety with Landry as the strong safety and horton coming in on cobra packages.

Get ready to see TEs and WRs crossing over the deep middle with little doughty struggling to keep up
Just type it "Slothy". You're most of the way there anyway lol.

Much like a sloth, he's slow and cannot run but wraps up very well.

[BurgundyNGold]

Heard on the radio this am that Zorn and Blache did indeed meet to talk about the defense and that Zorn expressed some desire for them to be more aggressive. Guess we'll see.
You'd think that discussion would have happened sometime before we went after Haynesworth and drafted Orakpo. I mean, why get these guys *before* you've had that discussion. Absent that, why wait 3 weeks into the season to have this discussion?

As far as the Doughty for Horton sub goes, I'm not totally against it. Sometimes it can be highly beneficial for a young player to step away and reset himself mentally. Doughty has been effective in the traditional SS role to this point, and with the Bucs likely to lean on the running game (and the run D needing an injection of life anyway), I don't think this is that big of a deal. The underlying implication is that Horton will regain that spot assuming he corrects his mistakes.
Unfortunately, Blache doesn't play him as a traditional SS. He plays all of his safeties in coverage more often than not. And while Horton might not be the best in coverage, he sure looks to be when compared against Doughty.

Once Redskin opponents notice him play on film, playing Doughty in coverage is a guaranteed minimum of 7 points a game for said Redskins opponent. Book it.

[oldskinfan]

Again, on the Steinberg blog:

"God love you, Jason, if I can see Antwaan Randle-El standing by himself with no one within 100 yards of him...then the quarterback's got to see it."

LOL

There are some other great tidbits here...read the whole thing

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/10/george_michael_on_why_fans_hat.html#more

[InsomniaKiller]

You can't look at the situation objectively and say that Doughty hasn't played very well when he's been on the field. Not just on special teams. I know a lot of fans don't like the guy, but he has been the best tackler on the team and I haven't thrown my controller or laptop at the television once because of him blowing coverage or screwing up in some other manner.

I'm pretty indifferent about this move because I think both Doughty and Horton have earned the right to be on the field this season, and hopefully they both will continue to play well when they get their opportunities.

[hail2skins]

couple of things..

horton has been out of position, and although he tackles well, NOBODY has been tackling better than doughty

doughty is a liability in coverage because of talent, but not mental issues
horton has been a liability in coverage solely because of mental issues.
he has all the tools, but has made mistakes.. the PI call was a perfect example of that. taking a horrible angle against stephen jackson was another (even though this wasnt a pass play)

the larger issue is "where is Moore" in all this process ? again, you have a guy who has all the physical tools you could ever want to play the free safety position.. but he cant crack the lineup .. why ? it is not that landry is playing so well, he isnt.. it is that Moore, apparently, still does not get the mental aspects of his position either

right now, i see little downside to playing doughty more until Horton and Moore get some consistency in their gameI don't agree with this at all. Why is Horton convering Jackson? He shouldn't be. You'll see teams attack Doughty now.

[Gravy]

...4th game of the season...and I think I have aged more than 10 years. When will the madness end...oh and how's that #4 defense working for you Blache...

[LATrueRedskin]

I don't agree with this at all. Why is Horton convering Jackson? He shouldn't be. You'll see teams attack Doughty now.

Oh yeah. Big time. Doughty's problem has never been run defense. He's been pretty decent at that. His problem is he's as slow as molasses, and will be exposed on pass plays. I'd rather put Horton back there to see what we have before we blow this thing up completely.

[Dolla Bill]

You can't look at the situation objectively and say that Doughty hasn't played very well when he's been on the field. Not just on special teams. I know a lot of fans don't like the guy, but he has been the best tackler on the team and I haven't thrown my controller or laptop at the television once because of him blowing coverage or screwing up in some other manner.

I'm pretty indifferent about this move because I think both Doughty and Horton have earned the right to be on the field this season, and hopefully they both will continue to play well when they get their opportunities.

I agree with this post. I'm not as down on Doughty as people seem to be. He may lag on coverage, but he's solid against the run. Last week, the Skins were ran all over the field. Maybe Horton isn't that great against the run? Who knows?

Reed is great on special teams. He's a decent SS on defense. This goes back to what others have already noted, the scheme. He should be backing up Landry at SS, not starting at SS. We may have to look at other options at FS next year's FA/Draft. I would move Landry to SS today, and possibly have Smoot or even Barnes (maybe) as the FS in the meanwhile.

[silverspring]

Well this is hard to argue, as much as it might be hard to admit, doughty has looked very good. I am all for the coaches making personnel changes based on performance. As others have stated, this certainly won't fix the overall defensive issues, but it makes a bit of a statement.

[Moe]

You'd think that discussion would have happened sometime before we went after Haynesworth and drafted Orakpo. I mean, why get these guys *before* you've had that discussion. Absent that, why wait 3 weeks into the season to have this discussion?

<grasping at straws> at least they talked? Dunno, these questions seem obvious to you and me, but we've seen this movie before.

Unfortunately, Blache doesn't play him as a traditional SS. He plays all of his safeties in coverage more often than not. And while Horton might not be the best in coverage, he sure looks to be when compared against Doughty.

Once Redskin opponents notice him play on film, playing Doughty in coverage is a guaranteed minimum of 7 points a game for said Redskins opponent. Book it.

Even when Horton started, Doughty saw the field and I suspect the reverse will be true here. Whether or not that puts Doughty in a lot of active coverage positions remains to be seen. I have my hopes that those instances are nil and fewer, but to his credit Doughty has shown some fire and been one of the better tacklers when out there, which are two components that have been glaringly missing to this point.

[Moe]

I don't agree with this at all. Why is Horton convering Jackson? He shouldn't be. You'll see teams attack Doughty now.

He wasn't covering Jackson, he missed the tackle a yard to two beyond the LOS that opened up Jackson on his 50+ yard run.

[BurgundyNGold]

Even when Horton started, Doughty saw the field and I suspect the reverse will be true here. Whether or not that puts Doughty in a lot of active coverage positions remains to be seen. I have my hopes that those instances are nil and fewer, but to his credit Doughty has shown some fire and been one of the better tacklers when out there, which are two components that have been glaringly missing to this point.
I could understand if Blache wanted to get Doughty in on obvious rushing downs. I cannot see putting him in as a starter over Horton, though. Horton missed a tackle here and there, I get it. But who cares how great Doughty can tackle (lately) if he can't get to the play to make or miss the tackle?

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

I'm in the camp with those who like how Doughty is playing against the run, but that has nothing to do with pass coverage. Maybe the benching will be good for Horton, although I see no reason why he is getting benched for a guy who cant even cover his own eyes.

[JoeJacksonTaylor28]

In another great blog post, Steinberg quotes George Michael as saying Snyder really wants to stick to Zorn.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/10/george_michael_on_why_fans_hat.html#more

If you think about it, with all the FA money spent on DEFENSE this offseason, it's possible if the D tanks, it could be Blache that is fired with Gray or Olivadotti taking over with orders to do more blitzing.


I tried very hard to find an "it" between "stick" and "to", sadly I couldnt find it.

Back in topic... IDIOTIC

[akhhorus]

You can't look at the situation objectively and say that Doughty hasn't played very well when he's been on the field. Not just on special teams. I know a lot of fans don't like the guy, but he has been the best tackler on the team and I haven't thrown my controller or laptop at the television once because of him blowing coverage or screwing up in some other manner.

I'm pretty indifferent about this move because I think both Doughty and Horton have earned the right to be on the field this season, and hopefully they both will continue to play well when they get their opportunities.

Doughty has played well against the run, but he's an unmitigated disaster against the pass. If Blache is benching Horton because of his play against the pass, this move makes no sense. If he's benching him to improve the run defense, he has a lot of other players to bench also.

Well this is hard to argue, as much as it might be hard to admit, doughty has looked very good. I am all for the coaches making personnel changes based on performance. As others have stated, this certainly won't fix the overall defensive issues, but it makes a bit of a statement.

Doughty has been fine against the run, but he's a bigger liability against the pass than Horton could ever be. And its selective accountability. There's a ton of the other starters who should be benched if Horton's play merits a benching.

[BigCountry]

The only positive spin I can put on this is maybe Blache is going to go with a lot more of the same cover 1 scheme that we saw in 2004 (I'm afraid right now if I see highlights of our defense that year I might ball hysterically) in which case Doughty assumes the role of the great Matt Bowen and plays almost as a 4th linebacker while and we start running some press coverage with Landry over the top.

AKH what odds would you give of this actually being the case?

[jaylen]

I'm still sorta mystified Horton makes the last defensive play of the game against the Rams that seals the win on the deep pass where he was in perfect position and gets no credit yet if thats Douhty its likely the wr runs right by him and possibly scores a td, remember that play because I got a feeling thats the exact play thats gonna be used to attack Douthy.

Blache is a freaking idiot and admits basically that he has to throw someone under the bus. lol

[Oregonian]

Doughty has played very well so far this season from what I can judge, despite all the contempt that people on this forum have had for him since before training camp started.

Apparently analysis of the game tape is bearing that out and the staff feels he deserves to start.

Regarding Horton, I haven't noticed that he is playing poorly, and certainly it is not reasonable to have him in single coverage on wide receivers. He saved the game against the Rams on the long bomb to Avery, and I don't fault him for the interference call at the end of the Lions game. I assume that the defensive coaches who break down the tape from each game have found some problems.

[Farmer Ted]

I'm still sorta mystified Horton makes the last defensive play of the game against the Rams that seals the win on the deep pass where he was in perfect position and gets no credit yet if thats Douhty its likely the wr runs right by him and possibly scores a td, remember that play because I got a feeling thats the exact play thats gonna be used to attack Douthy.

Blache is a freaking idiot and admits basically that he has to throw someone under the bus. lol

If it had been Doughty, you wouldn't have even known that it was Doughty covering him. All the blame would've gone to Hall or Rodgers or whoever the idiot with yellow shoes was that let Avery run right by him.

The move doesn't seem to make much sense, but maybe they feel Doughty is a better blitzer than Horton, and that's what they're talking about with being more aggressive. He did have a couple of sacks in the pre-season.

[OCSKINSFAN]

This questionable move is what Blanche does to fix the Defense? He needs to look at the D line and his blitz schemes. Those were the primary reasons the defense blew up against he Lions. Simply put they could not stop the run and could not, even with blitzes, apply pressure to the QB. The DB's weren't great against the Lions, but how could they be with those problems?

[silverspring]

Doughty has been fine against the run, but he's a bigger liability against the pass than Horton could ever be. And its selective accountability. There's a ton of the other starters who should be benched if Horton's play merits a benching.

Just because doughty is named starter doesn't mean he will play exclusively. Hell he made his impact while not a starter, so i am sure horton will still be used in passing plays.

I agree that there are other starters that deserve benching. From my perspective, the problem is there aren't alternatives. Like I would bench the entire oline if I thought we had any better alternatives. As bad as the coaching has been the players are lucky our depth stinks because they own plenty of the problems.

[flave1969]

As far as I am concerned if I am benching one of my starters, it is Landry. His play has been dire, full of bad angles, poor tackling and ill discipline. In reality we have three Strong Safeties and no Free Safety. Horton has largely been OK in coverage and has made some good tackles up close to the line. Doughty has been solid tackling up close to the line but we all know his limitations in coverage.

It has been our Corners that have been woefully inadequate to a man they are the ones that should be truly accountable in terms of on field play. I mean do they not have the brains to step up closer or are they simply automatons that cannot act without Blache's disaster plan.

As usual with this team our coaches show they have zero clue when it comes to our actual faults as a team.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

When Doughty was in the game, he was the one making the tackles. Simple as that, they watched the film.
Landry is really the one who is playing poorly, not Horton though.

[akhhorus]

The only positive spin I can put on this is maybe Blache is going to go with a lot more of the same cover 1 scheme that we saw in 2004 (I'm afraid right now if I see highlights of our defense that year I might ball hysterically) in which case Doughty assumes the role of the great Matt Bowen and plays almost as a 4th linebacker while and we start running some press coverage with Landry over the top.

AKH what odds would you give of this actually being the case?

1 in 10. Maybe.

Doughty has played very well so far this season from what I can judge, despite all the contempt that people on this forum have had for him since before training camp started.

He still hasn't shown that he can cover. And considering that Doughty's biggest problem was his total inability to cover the pass, how are the skins remotely better after this move?

Apparently analysis of the game tape is bearing that out and the staff feels he deserves to start.


I wouldn't take that as a vote of confidence. This is the same staff and coordinator who insists on playing Orakpo at OLB despite the fact that he's probably the worst OLB in football and has some potential at DE.

And I guess by your logic, Campbell is doing well since the coaches' analysis of the game tape means that they won't even hint at benching him?

Just because doughty is named starter doesn't mean he will play exclusively. Hell he made his impact while not a starter, so i am sure horton will still be used in passing plays.

So, don't make the move and bring in Doughty for short yardage situs.

I agree that there are other starters that deserve benching. From my perspective, the problem is there aren't alternatives. Like I would bench the entire oline if I thought we had any better alternatives. As bad as the coaching has been the players are lucky our depth stinks because they own plenty of the problems.

Thats not a justification for selective accountability.

[shally]

I'm still sorta mystified Horton makes the last defensive play of the game against the Rams that seals the win on the deep pass where he was in perfect position and gets no credit yet if thats Douhty its likely the wr runs right by him and possibly scores a td, remember that play because I got a feeling thats the exact play thats gonna be used to attack Douthy.

Blache is a freaking idiot and admits basically that he has to throw someone under the bus. lol


his comment about skid marks was tasteless in the extreme.. what a f****g idiot !!!

[shally]

As far as I am concerned if I am benching one of my starters, it is Landry. His play has been dire, full of bad angles, poor tackling and ill discipline. In reality we have three Strong Safeties and no Free Safety. Horton has largely been OK in coverage and has made some good tackles up close to the line. Doughty has been solid tackling up close to the line but we all know his limitations in coverage.

It has been our Corners that have been woefully inadequate to a man they are the ones that should be truly accountable in terms of on field play. I mean do they not have the brains to step up closer or are they simply automatons that cannot act without Blache's disaster plan.

As usual with this team our coaches show they have zero clue when it comes to our actual faults as a team.

some of the reasons for poor corner play, such as atrocious tackling, are the fault of the corners.. some of the problems are due to lack of pressure from the front 4, and mismatches between the corner's talents and blache's idiotic schemes.. something has to change or the secondary is going to be a huge sinkhole the entire season... since we cant find other corners that will be much better as free agents, blache better rethink how he is using the ones he has...

[Brokenstriker]

They both have issues but the thing is ... Doughty can't improve his physical limitations (enough) through hard/professional work ... but Horton can improve his decision making and hasn't. There are so many other issues that pointing at any single one can easily be shouted down by pointing at the existence of all the others. One way to try to get a guy to sharpen up his play is to make him have to in order to play. I can only conclude that Blanche is trying to have a teaching moment with Horton and for the moment at least thinks that the downside of starting Doughty isn't greater than the upside of trying to impress on Horton that he needs to stop making avoidable/amateur/rookie mistakes.

I get it ... Doughty isn't as physically gifted as you'd want to see in your starting safety ... but as I recall he did one hell of a good job filling in for ST so I have to conclude that if you manage how he is used he's got some redeeming value.

Besides ... not starting only means you miss one play ... the first.

Now if you'll excuse me I've got to go take a hot shower and gargle a gallon of mouthwash cause I think I might have actually defended Blanche ... who I think should be the second person to be sent packing right after Vinnie and the sooner the better.

also while I'm thinking of it ... whoever made the point earlier (I forgot) ... its a good one ... where the freaking devil is Kareem Moore who was picked 79 players ahead of Horton?!

[akhhorus]

They both have issues but the thing is ... Doughty can't improve his physical limitations (enough) through hard/professional work ... but Horton can improve his decision making and hasn't. There are so many other issues that pointing at any single one can easily be shouted down by pointing at the existence of all the others. One way to try to get a guy to sharpen up his play is to make him have to in order to play. I can only conclude that Blanche is trying to have a teaching moment with Horton and for the moment at least thinks that the downside of starting Doughty isn't greater than the upside of trying to impress on Horton that he needs to stop making avoidable/amateur/rookie mistakes.

I get it ... Doughty isn't as physically gifted as you'd want to see in your starting safety ... but as I recall he did one hell of a good job filling in for ST so I have to conclude that if you manage how he is used he's got some redeeming value.

Besides ... not starting only means you miss one play ... the first.


There is a disconnect between saying that there's no effective difference between starting and playing(paraphrasing you) and saying that this is a message or teaching moment for Horton. If there's no real difference between the 2nd and 3rd safeties, then why make this announcement publicly at all? If Horton needs to work on his game, fine, then why make it a public embarrassment. We've seen Doughty: he's a guy who can run support and has improved his tackling, but he's far from a fix to the entire defense and he'll still have a major bullseye on his back until he shows he can cover.

And Doughty didn't embarrass himself replacing Taylor, but he really didn't do much either. He was also playing in a much different defense asking him to fill a much different role.

[silverspring]

So, don't make the move and bring in Doughty for short yardage situs.



Thats not a justification for selective accountability.

Just because we can't make all changes we may want to make, doesn't mean we shouldn't make the changes that we can make.

[akhhorus]

Just because we can't make all changes we may want to make, doesn't mean we shouldn't make the changes that we can make.

:rolleyes: Just because we 'can' make the change doesn't mean that it will do anything. Benching Horton for Doughty doesn't make the defense any better. And if its about accountability on Blache's part, then he should bench Doughty when he inevitably screws up as badly as Horton supposedly did(but he won't, because this isn't about fixing the team).

[Goskins11]

we are giving up a ton of third down passes as it is.. the lions were running at a 75 % clip through most of last weeks game..

smoot is dreadful.. honestly, i would play either tryon or westbrook over him (probably the latter) and give a lot of thought to letting Barnes take his lumps and learn the pro game.. sooner or later, it will pay dividends..

and i totally agree with you about Blache's schemes

by the way, did you notice that the Saints players game GWilliams the game ball for his schemes that allowed the defense to make Edwards life miserable due to all the PRESSURE overwhelming him ? i will need a helping of crow if Williams continues to rehab his reputation as a superior defensive mind.. clealry, he understands pressure far better than blache ever could

lol i thought sacks, turnovers and pressureing opposing qb's was overrated ...

[silverspring]

:rolleyes: Just because we 'can' make the change doesn't mean that it will do anything. Benching Horton for Doughty doesn't make the defense any better. And if its about accountability on Blache's part, then he should bench Doughty when he inevitably screws up as badly as Horton supposedly did(but he won't, because this isn't about fixing the team).

I think you are dramatizing this situation and turning it into more than it is. Horton isn't being benched, he is just being demoted. Unlike many of our problems, this issue is pretty simple. Doughty is playing better than horton so yes making him the starter should make the defense better. Blache did bench doughty last year for horton so I am sure he would do it again. If this isn't about fixing things then what do you think it is about? Blache's defensive scheme may not be ideal, but it is never going to have a chance if the players don't start showing some discipline and that goes for any scheme. Doughty is an example of a player showing discipline and being effective, i think this is exactly about fixing the defense. I doubt it is enough alone to make the difference we need, but at this point we should do anything we can do.

[shally]

lol i thought sacks, turnovers and pressureing opposing qb's was overrated ...

well, either gwilliams got "religion" or more likely, blache is simply a far worse version of him

[Brokenstriker]

There is a disconnect between saying that there's no effective difference between starting and playing(paraphrasing you) and saying that this is a message or teaching moment for Horton. If there's no real difference between the 2nd and 3rd safeties, then why make this announcement publicly at all? If Horton needs to work on his game, fine, then why make it a public embarrassment. We've seen Doughty: he's a guy who can run support and has improved his tackling, but he's far from a fix to the entire defense and he'll still have a major bullseye on his back until he shows he can cover.

And Doughty didn't embarrass himself replacing Taylor, but he really didn't do much either. He was also playing in a much different defense asking him to fill a much different role.

can't be convinced that Horton doesn't have a bullseye on his back also ... Horton does well when he is facing the QB but he's not looking good when he has to run with a WR (shades of Ade Jimoh)

but generally ... I agree with you ... this was my first and probably last attempt this week to see something positive with the Skins

big if about why Horton is not starting ... but while I was searching for the reasons a coach wouldn't start him ... all I can come up with is "send a message." Only message I can think of is Horton must be failing to do what he's supposed to do because clearly he's a more gifted athlete than Doughty. And to why make a public announcement ... perhaps he's frustrated that the couple times during games that he has pulled him off the field haven't successfully got Horton's attention. Honestly ... I'm just trying to find a plausible reason why Blanche would come to this. I'm not trying to justify it.

and still again I've left with wondering ... "Moore? ... Moore? ... anyone? ... anyone? ... "

[Brokenstriker]

these things are too frustrating ... there are so many things not right or not good enough going on with this team it's essentially impossible to find "the" thing that is wrong. The team is the system ... not the individual players ... so many interrelated parts of the system are dysfunctional or imperfect that its doesn't get fixed by dealing with some of the problems or treating the symptoms ...

and while I'm poking at Moore ... has anyone seen Landry? Remember him? .. High impact player, physical freak of an athlete? Not just seen, but you know ... near the ball ... involved in ... dare I say effecting the game? I doubt it's his fault he's being asked to play in the Dream Seat Sections (Section 11 and Section 32). Just another of the too many problems ...

[akhhorus]

I think you are dramatizing this situation and turning it into more than it is. Horton isn't being benched, he is just being demoted. Unlike many of our problems, this issue is pretty simple. [Doughty is playing better than horton so yes making him the starter should make the defense better.

Umm...no. Doughty might improve, slightly, the run defense and make the pass defense worse. But if Blache wanted to fix the run defense, he should be benching a lot of other players. I don't know why you can't respond to that point which I've said multiple times.

Blache did bench doughty last year for horton so I am sure he would do it again. If this isn't about fixing things then what do you think it is about?

http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=1256567&postcount=13

Blache's defensive scheme may not be ideal, but it is never going to have a chance if the players don't start showing some discipline and that goes for any scheme. Doughty is an example of a player showing discipline and being effective, i think this is exactly about fixing the defense. I doubt it is enough alone to make the difference we need, but at this point we should do anything we can do.

Blache's problem isn't players playing out of the scheme or undisciplined, its that his scheme is just out of date and has been figured out, along with his putting players in positions where they can't produce well(Orakpo, Rogers, Landry) or plays players who can't produce(Carter, Daniels, etc). Benching one of the few players who plays hard, in the right position for a vet who doesn't really change much with the defense isn't about fixing the defense. Its about appearing to be doing something.

[BurgundyNGold]

If Blache wants to make changes, there are about 7 or 8 players he should start with before Horton who, BTW, is 2nd on the team in tackles behind only Fletcher (who leads the league).

This whole situation is what's wrong with Blache. He seeing a guy bleeding out of his neck and deciding to tend to his hang nail.

[skinsfan36]

this makes zero sense. blache keeps making jokes about jumping under the bus. im so tired of him its almost to the point where someone should push him in front of one.

horton is 2nd in tackles.made a few great plays so far. and had 2 bad ones(1 he actually chased down jackson after a big gain)

this idiot needs fired

[jaylen]

Blache is an idiot he makes this grand proclamation about throwing himself under the bus then uses it to throw Horton under it to offer himself cover.

Truthfully he should bench Orakpo at sam but he won't because he was picked high and he doesn't wanna put himself in the cross hairs with management. Because Blache is a coward. Orakpo's mistakes along with Daniels and Carter are much more glaring on the defense but he picks on Horton who made a mistake with his eyes but wasn't helped by Rogers who missed the jam in the 1st place.

Horton is the easy mark here. Douthy won't make much of a difference in the run game either. he made a couple tackles behind the line that anyone could have made. He came through clean. Horton hits harder and makes more things happen even there. Hell it was Horton laying the wood that took Smith out of the game for the Lions.

so when Douthy is flailing away trying to catch up to someone who smokes him we'll all be saying thanks to Blache.

they could fix this defense just by firing Blache and giving jerry gray the job. he'll be more agressive than Blache will.

[redskin_rich]

Great interview with Doughty today on the LaVar and Dukes show on WJFK. When Reed was the starter last year and was hurting with his various ailments, he was the first one to notify Horton to be ready to start when Horton got his first start. How many players would do that? Tell their competition that they can't go and to be ready to take the spot. Doughty said all he cares about is helping the team win, no matter what role he plays. What a breath of fresh air he is.

I don't care what anyone says, this is a guy I want on my team.

[DaveKShape]

this whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. the more i think about it, the more i believe that the shanahan deal was finalized in april (i can't seem to reference the thread in which this was mentioned), and that our coaches are simply doing everything they can to screw with all of us before they get the boot.

while doughty is a great tackler against the run, horton is indeed 2nd in tackles. why not say "hey carter... you've been a great leader. orakpo's coming in on a couple more downs." and actually pass rush... you know, something that might actually help our defense in a real way?

i just don't get it. how can these people completely ignore all the things that seem so obvious to the "fans" that apparently care more about booing than having a team that is run in a manner that makes even a bit of sense?

[jaylen]

"I have to be more of a maverick, not necessarily a McCain-Palin maverick but a Bart and Bret Maverick and be more of a riverboat gambler," Blache said. "I can't worry about giving up a play; I have to worry about making a play. That's where I can help my guys a little bit more."

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/02/redskins-blache-is-ready-to-take-chances/

can't hardly believed Blache said this in the Washington Times article today.

[smoak]

I like Horton a lot... But I will say I am all for LESSER talented players getting on the field. I'd rather pay money to watch a one legged, bucktoothed hoocker play than some of these gutless asses. I hate them.

If Blache had stones he'd have Horton and Doughty out there and sit Landry. I hate these guys players.

[silverspring]

Umm...no. Doughty might improve, slightly, the run defense and make the pass defense worse. But if Blache wanted to fix the run defense, he should be benching a lot of other players. I don't know why you can't respond to that point which I've said multiple times.



http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=1256567&postcount=13

Not trying to ignore your point I guess it just seems vague to me. I assume you are saying if we are going to demote horton then we should also demote haynesworth and orakpo, etc. I don't totally disagree. I think the difference is that in horton's case doughty was out playing him on the field, in these other situations the backups are having just as many problems as the starter.


Blache's problem isn't players playing out of the scheme or undisciplined, its that his scheme is just out of date and has been figured out, along with his putting players in positions where they can't produce well(Orakpo, Rogers, Landry) or plays players who can't produce(Carter, Daniels, etc). Benching one of the few players who plays hard, in the right position for a vet who doesn't really change much with the defense isn't about fixing the defense. Its about appearing to be doing something.


I don't disagree that blache's scheme could use a more aggressive tone, but in general there is no scheme that doesn't require discipline. Sure there are schemes that allow 1 or 2 players to free lance but even the most aggressive scheme will require the players to be in position and play with discipline. This lack of discipline seems to be pretty clear and even the players themselves are making statements indicating this is a problem. The best scheme won't work if the players don't stick to it. While blache's scheme might not be the best, it would at least be more successful then it is if the players were executing it. I wonder why this has become such a problem when blache seemed to have no problem with this in the past.

[akhhorus]

Not trying to ignore your point I guess it just seems vague to me. I assume you are saying if we are going to demote horton then we should also demote haynesworth and orakpo, etc. I don't totally disagree. I think the difference is that in horton's case doughty was out playing him on the field, in these other situations the backups are having just as many problems as the starter.

If we're going to bench Horton for his mistakes, then Orakpo needs to be benched or moved to DE(he would be an immediate improvement over Daniels or Carter), because he's the worst OLB I've seen play in the NFL this year, so I doubt Blades(or whomever) would be worse than him at SLB. Haynesworth is actually playing rather well, but the rest of the Dline can be sent to the glue factory based on what I've seen. The point is that benching Horton for anyone doesn't fix the problems Blache is supposedly trying to fix. Doughty has been playing with more energy, but the defense hasn't been better with him in there more. Its not like Doughty hasn't played, Horton's been benched twice already this season for him, and the defense wasn't better. So, this move still smells more like scapegoating on Blache's part.


I don't disagree that blache's scheme could use a more aggressive tone, but in general there is no scheme that doesn't require discipline. Sure there are schemes that allow 1 or 2 players to free lance but even the most aggressive scheme will require the players to be in position and play with discipline. This lack of discipline seems to be pretty clear and even the players themselves are making statements indicating this is a problem. The best scheme won't work if the players don't stick to it. While blache's scheme might not be the best, it would at least be more successful then it is if the players were executing it. I wonder why this has become such a problem when blache seemed to have no problem with this in the past.

You can have everyone playing Blache's scheme exactly how he wants them to, and it would still be ineffective. The problems with the defense aren't players out of position or going for big plays versus sticking with their assignments, they just can't make up for the fact that teams know how to beat Blache rather easily now, Blache refuses to make any real adjustments, and that Blache makes major personnel errors with his lineups(like playing a DE at OLB and wondering why TEs seem to have no problem slicing through the pass defense).

[Emmanouel8]

Although I think Doughty's play has been a bright spot thus far this season, I think this move is bad all around.

The pass rush right now is setting up anyone in the outfield to fail.

I don't know why that pass interference call on Horton gets repeatedly mentioned. The covergae wasn't bad and it was a borderline call IMO.

This buys Blache's system another week at the expense of another players reputation.

[Redskinmayhem]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I believe this is a reactionary move. Yes, doughty was the only one tackling on Sunday. He got in there, made some good tackles, good reads etc. Unfortunately, he doesn't bring the explosiveness or Talent that CHort does. The other issue is that CHorts mistakes aren't for lack of heart or trying. Theyr'e that of a 2nd year player. If you want to make a statement, Bench CRog and DHall. That'sll get some attention. Yes, it might be a form of career suicide but it will surely grab those two players by the "you know whats". Unfortunately, Blache talks a big game of "Throw me under the bus" but CHort is the sacrificial lamb here. How about Benching Phillip Daniels? He does NOTHING. Carter? Same thing. Even Griff. They were so High on Monty last season and this season he's inactive every game??? This is just more of the same crap. The younger players don't get a fair shake at it. Instead, coaches are loyal to their "system" guys like PDaniels, etc.

[BurgundyNGold]

If we're going to bench Horton for his mistakes, then Orakpo needs to be benched or moved to DE(he would be an immediate improvement over Daniels or Carter), because he's the worst OLB I've seen play in the NFL this year, so I doubt Blades(or whomever) would be worse than him at SLB. Haynesworth is actually playing rather well, but the rest of the Dline can be sent to the glue factory based on what I've seen. The point is that benching Horton for anyone doesn't fix the problems Blache is supposedly trying to fix. Doughty has been playing with more energy, but the defense hasn't been better with him in there more. Its not like Doughty hasn't played, Horton's been benched twice already this season for him, and the defense wasn't better. So, this move still smells more like scapegoating on Blache's part.

You can have everyone playing Blache's scheme exactly how he wants them to, and it would still be ineffective. The problems with the defense aren't players out of position or going for big plays versus sticking with their assignments, they just can't make up for the fact that teams know how to beat Blache rather easily now, Blache refuses to make any real adjustments, and that Blache makes major personnel errors with his lineups(like playing a DE at OLB and wondering why TEs seem to have no problem slicing through the pass defense).
Again, how anyone thinks that benching a guy who is 2nd on the team in tackles, who caused the fumble that turned the Rams game and had good enough one-on-one coverage on Avery to break up a last ditch pass probably shouldn't be a DC for a Pop Warner team.

If anything, Blache should be looking at more Cobra sets. At least then, he could send Doughty or Horton and nobody would know which was coming.

[BurgundyNGold]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I believe this is a reactionary move. Yes, doughty was the only one tackling on Sunday. He got in there, made some good tackles, good reads etc. Unfortunately, he doesn't bring the explosiveness or Talent that CHort does. The other issue is that CHorts mistakes aren't for lack of heart or trying. Theyr'e that of a 2nd year player. If you want to make a statement, Bench CRog and DHall. That'sll get some attention. Yes, it might be a form of career suicide but it will surely grab those two players by the "you know whats". Unfortunately, Blache talks a big game of "Throw me under the bus" but CHort is the sacrificial lamb here. How about Benching Phillip Daniels? He does NOTHING. Carter? Same thing. Even Griff. They were so High on Monty last season and this season he's inactive every game??? This is just more of the same crap. The younger players don't get a fair shake at it. Instead, coaches are loyal to their "system" guys like PDaniels, etc.
That's just it. This move is about politicking and propagating the perception of doing something when, in reality, he has done very little.

[silverspring]

If we're going to bench Horton for his mistakes, then Orakpo needs to be benched or moved to DE(he would be an immediate improvement over Daniels or Carter), because he's the worst OLB I've seen play in the NFL this year, so I doubt Blades(or whomever) would be worse than him at SLB. Haynesworth is actually playing rather well, but the rest of the Dline can be sent to the glue factory based on what I've seen. The point is that benching Horton for anyone doesn't fix the problems Blache is supposedly trying to fix. Doughty has been playing with more energy, but the defense hasn't been better with him in there more. Its not like Doughty hasn't played, Horton's been benched twice already this season for him, and the defense wasn't better. So, this move still smells more like scapegoating on Blache's part.




You can have everyone playing Blache's scheme exactly how he wants them to, and it would still be ineffective. The problems with the defense aren't players out of position or going for big plays versus sticking with their assignments, they just can't make up for the fact that teams know how to beat Blache rather easily now, Blache refuses to make any real adjustments, and that Blache makes major personnel errors with his lineups(like playing a DE at OLB and wondering why TEs seem to have no problem slicing through the pass defense).

I follow your points and agree in many regards. But I do think doughty is the only example of a player where the backup was outplaying the starter. Like in the case of orakpo there hasn't been evidence of a better option on the field. I was never against trying orakpo out at linebacker, but the fact that there is no legitimate backup is kind of ridiculous. About as ridiculous as the fact that we have no oline depth for this beat up oline. The blades idea would at least be worth a shot. I still don't know why they don't just make carter play linebacker, he has the experience. Frankly though, i don't think the orakpo at linebacker experiment has been any worse that the rest of the defensive problems. The Doughty change is the "easy move" but as you say it probably won't yield overall results because the big problems seem to be up front.

In terms of scheme, I know blache's scheme might not be the most original but i still believe it would be more successful if the players executed with discipline. I always thought his scheme made sense for his personnel in the past, but i agree that now that he has the personnel to attack more he certainly should be.

[akhhorus]

I follow your points and agree in many regards. But I do think doughty is the only example of a player where the backup was outplaying the starter.

But the defense isn't suddenly better with him in there, and Doughty has played more than Horton so far this season.

Like in the case of orakpo there hasn't been evidence of a better option on the field. I was never against trying orakpo out at linebacker, but the fact that there is no legitimate backup is kind of ridiculous. About as ridiculous as the fact that we have no oline depth for this beat up oline. The blades idea would at least be worth a shot. I still don't know why they don't just make carter play linebacker, he has the experience. Frankly though, i don't think the orakpo at linebacker experiment has been any worse that the rest of the defensive problems. The Doughty change is the "easy move" but as you say it probably won't yield overall results because the big problems seem to be up front.

The big problem is on the sidelines. A smart DC could probably cobble together an effective 3-4 cover 3 team/46 4-3 from the personnel that the skins have, but guys like orakpo, Landry, Horton, Doughty, Hall, Rogers, Wilson, Haynesworth are a total waste in a soft zone scheme that blache runs.

In terms of scheme, I know blache's scheme might not be the most original but i still believe it would be more successful if the players executed with discipline. I always thought his scheme made sense for his personnel in the past, but i agree that now that he has the personnel to attack more he certainly should be.

THe sole reason you get Orakpo and Haynesworth is to attack the ball. And Blache is doing the opposite.

[Brokenstriker]

There's no "tuning" this team up ... tinkering ain't going to make it a good football team. It might keep them from plumbing the depths of terrible but its not going to make them a force to be reckoned with in the NFL.

Neither Doughty or Horton fix years of failing to "build" a team, draft smart, invest in the future, establish a winning culture. Nor can they fix the lack of effective and inspirational leadership or professional accountability. Seriously doubt either one of them can improve on a stubborn, inflexible and ineffective defensive game plan or a naive, over-reactive, "wish"-ful and ineffective offensive game plan.

Needs some major organ transplants and a stem to stern transfusion of excellence.

[akhhorus]

That's just it. This move is about politicking and propagating the perception of doing something when, in reality, he has done very little.

Amen. And if Tampa runs all over the Skins, Blache is out of deck chairs to move around the titanic.

[BurgundyNGold]

I follow your points and agree in many regards. But I do think doughty is the only example of a player where the backup was outplaying the starter. Like in the case of orakpo there hasn't been evidence of a better option on the field. I was never against trying orakpo out at linebacker, but the fact that there is no legitimate backup is kind of ridiculous. About as ridiculous as the fact that we have no oline depth for this beat up oline. The blades idea would at least be worth a shot. I still don't know why they don't just make carter play linebacker, he has the experience. Frankly though, i don't think the orakpo at linebacker experiment has been any worse that the rest of the defensive problems. The Doughty change is the "easy move" but as you say it probably won't yield overall results because the big problems seem to be up front.

In terms of scheme, I know blache's scheme might not be the most original but i still believe it would be more successful if the players executed with discipline. I always thought his scheme made sense for his personnel in the past, but i agree that now that he has the personnel to attack more he certainly should be.
Not really...

Horton:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9179/redskinshorton2009wk03.png


Doughty:

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1550/redskinsdoughty2009wk03.png

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Although I think Doughty's play has been a bright spot thus far this season, I think this move is bad all around.

The pass rush right now is setting up anyone in the outfield to fail.

I don't know why that pass interference call on Horton gets repeatedly mentioned. The covergae wasn't bad and it was a borderline call IMO.

This buys Blache's system another week at the expense of another players reputation.

I agree with your points. If you are going to point to a bad play by Horton it would be the Steven Jackson run. Looking at the replay, it is clear to me that he had gap responsibility on that play and just missed the tackle at the LOS.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Amen. And if Tampa runs all over the Skins, Blache is out of deck chairs to move around the titanic.

You underestimate. Our coaches, FO, etc. rearrange better than anyone.

[BurgundyNGold]

I agree with your points. If you are going to point to a bad play by Horton it would be the Steven Jackson run. Looking at the replay, it is clear to me that he had gap responsibility on that play and just missed the tackle at the LOS.
True, but the miss was in the backfield. Horton was there because of an instinctive play on his part. He just didn't close the deal. Doughty would not have gotten there to begin with.

Besides, last time I checked, there are 10 other players on defense. There is no way that Jackson should have gone 58 yards with only one missed tackle in the backfield. Which goes to the point that Blache is scapegoating and tap dancing instead of actually coordinating his defense.

[RedskinsGuru]

Yeah, I heard this. This is just flat out silly. To his credit, Doughty played with fire last week and did well in run support....but he is atrocious in coverage. Horton is much, much better. This move is illogical and it seems as if we're trying to lose to the Bucs.

[Redskinfan28]

Blache seems to hate Horton - I think he has been our 2nd best defensive player. I wish Blache was gone, I think he sucks.

[smoak]

Amen. And if Tampa runs all over the Skins, Blache is out of deck chairs to move around the titanic.

Yeah, they ran on us... But Reed was a solid tackler out there unlike Mr. Whiff.

[BurgundyNGold]

Yeah, they ran on us... But Reed was a solid tackler out there unlike Mr. Whiff.
Who's Mr. Whiff? Do you mean Mr. Recovered the Fumble? :)

[Dept_of_Defense]

Who's Mr. Whiff? Do you mean Mr. Recovered the Fumble? :)

Landry right? I was thinking more like Mr. I Celebrate Big Hits on Big Gains...

[Dolla Bill]

Who's Mr. Whiff? Do you mean Mr. Recovered the Fumble? :)

I think he means Landry.

Landry made some pretty good plays when he plays around the LOS. Blache is forcing a square peg through a round hole in playing him 40 yards off the LOS. I don't get it.

[smoak]

I think he means Landry.

Landry made some pretty good plays when he plays around the LOS. Blache is forcing a square peg through a round hole in playing him 40 yards off the LOS. I don't get it.

Yeah, Landry again lined someone up for a kill shot only to miss... Or at least I remember it as being Landry. At this point, playing a 3 S set where we get Landry closer to the LOS makes more sense than a traditional 4-3 with 'po at OLB.

[BurgundyNGold]

Landry right? I was thinking more like Mr. I Celebrate Big Hits on Big Gains...
Ah, OK, Landry. Mr. Whiff, lol. I thought you were referring to Horton, who missed that tackle on Stephen Jackson a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah, Landry is being played out out position, but he's playing it poorly.

[dj_stouty]

Gotta give Doughty his due. He was in the pile on virtually every 1st and 2nd down play and his tackling was solid. (it appeared he was pulled on many 3rd downs, for good reason) I watched Dirty Thirty whiff at least twice yesterday. Sure, he may be out of position, but being a hard nosed d-back means you make tackles no matter what; especially if you were a former top 10 pick.

[CNYSkinFan]

Gotta give Doughty his due. He was in the pile on virtually every 1st and 2nd down play and his tackling was solid. (it appeared he was pulled on many 3rd downs, for good reason) I watched Dirty Thirty whiff at least twice yesterday. Sure, he may be out of position, but being a hard nosed d-back means you make tackles no matter what; especially if you were a former top 10 pick.

Yeah I agree on LLandry, and Doughty. LAndry lines up for the kill instead of wrapping up and brining the tackler down. PArt of that is he is running inn from som far out he is out of control and can't break down, the other part is that he is too worried about being ST instead of being LL.

I still say our besxt base package is with Moore at FS and LL up around the line with Doughty and Horton sharing duties in the cobra and maybe even a little Will. Move MciNtosh to strong side and pput Orakpo's hand down on the ground where he is most effective and replace the corpse of Phillip Daniels.

[BurgundyNGold]

Gotta give Doughty his due. He was in the pile on virtually every 1st and 2nd down play and his tackling was solid. (it appeared he was pulled on many 3rd downs, for good reason) I watched Dirty Thirty whiff at least twice yesterday. Sure, he may be out of position, but being a hard nosed d-back means you make tackles no matter what; especially if you were a former top 10 pick.
Doughty is playing very well at the LOS, I will give him that. Normally, he is 1, maybe 2 steps late to the play. He's been either in position or only 1/2 step late this season. It's good to see that improvement.

That said, he ends up in the pile a whole lot when the play is pretty much over too. I'm not sure if those "tackles" count towards his stats but they shouldn't. Just keep him at or near the LOS and I'm happy. Put him in converage and things are going to get ugly.

On a separate note, Kareem Moore seems to be about 3 shades of worthless.

[CNYSkinFan]

Doughty is playing very well at the LOS, I will give him that. Normally, he is 1, maybe 2 steps late to the play. He's been either in position or only 1/2 step late this season. It's good to see that improvement.

That said, he ends up in the pile a whole lot when the play is pretty much over too. I'm not sure if those "tackles" count towards his stats but they shouldn't. Just keep him at or near the LOS and I'm happy. Put him in converage and things are going to get ugly.

On a separate note, Kareem Moore seems to be about 3 shades of worthless.


I disagree about Moore. i think he is the only true FS we have on the roster and if he is put in that position he will make plays.

[BurgundyNGold]

I disagree about Moore. i think he is the only true FS we have on the roster and if he is put in that position he will make plays.
Until he makes plays, he's worthless. He hasn't done diddly on teams either. Worthless.

[Hr fan]

the fo strikes again. We have 3 SS, 1 FS (Moore). We shuffle around the SS while ignoring the tackles maybe should have been made by the LBs. LL will look bad tackling IMO until he plays SS. He is so overanxious when he gets a shot he tries to kill, not wrap.

[dj_stouty]

the fo strikes again. We have 3 SS, 1 FS (Moore). We shuffle around the SS while ignoring the tackles maybe should have been made by the LBs. LL will look bad tackling IMO until he plays SS. He is so overanxious when he gets a shot he tries to kill, not wrap.

The guy is certainly under-utilized for his strengths...but no matter how out of position your coaching staff puts you in prior to the snap; you still need to make an open field tackle when the receiver/runner comes your way. Landry has twice as many whiffs as solid taclkes this season; IMO.


That said, he ends up in the pile a whole lot when the play is pretty much over too. I'm not sure if those "tackles" count towards his stats but they shouldn't. Just keep him at or near the LOS and I'm happy. Put him in converage and things are going to get ugly.


NFL.Com gave Doughty 8 total tackles with only 1 assist so I think he was getting credit for the tackles he was truely involved in. Usually players who simply "pile on" are given those token assist stats. The Doughty/Horton saga really intrigued me last week so I was watching Reed intently during the game. I think he really did deserve those numbers.

[BurgundyNGold]

NFL.Com gave Doughty 8 total tackles with only 1 assist so I think he was getting credit for the tackles he was truely involved in. Usually players who simply "pile on" are given those token assist stats. The Doughty/Horton saga really intrigued me last week so I was watching Reed intently during the game. I think he really did deserve those numbers.
I was watching Orakpo and Fletcher most of the game. When they showed the graphic of tackles, I was surprised. I would have thought Fletcher would have had like 10 tackles at that point, as he was all over the place. I was also surprised to see how many tackles Doughty had. I'll be watching him closely on one of my replays.

[Hr fan]

Doughty can tackle. Too bad he is too small to become a LBer.

[BurgundyNGold]

Doughty can tackle. Too bad he is too small to become a LBer.
He could be very useful if Blach played Cobra as the base set. He could line up at or near the LOS and play the role of a Doug Plank in the old Chicago 46.

[Redskinmayhem]

Doughty can tackle. Too bad he is too small to become a LBer.
He can tackle but he also got blown up by the Bucs LT or G on one play. That happened to him because he waited for the play to come to him, instead of attacking the ball. Maybe he was playing his "gap" assignment or doing what Blache told him to do.

[smoak]

The guy is certainly under-utilized for his strengths...but no matter how out of position your coaching staff puts you in prior to the snap; you still need to make an open field tackle when the receiver/runner comes your way. Landry has twice as many whiffs as solid taclkes this season; IMO.



NFL.Com gave Doughty 8 total tackles with only 1 assist so I think he was getting credit for the tackles he was truely involved in. Usually players who simply "pile on" are given those token assist stats. The Doughty/Horton saga really intrigued me last week so I was watching Reed intently during the game. I think he really did deserve those numbers.

Totally agree. LL is being played out of position, but there is no excuse for his jackassery.

Doughty isn't perfect, but I'll take a lesser gifted player who plays hard any day.

[hail2skins]

He could be very useful if Blach played Cobra as the base set. He could line up at or near the LOS and play the role of a Doug Plank in the old Chicago 46.The Redskins actually employed a hybrid defense yesterday. That had all 3 safeties (Horton, Reed, Landry) on the field at the same time and I believe one linebacker.

[BurgundyNGold]

Totally agree. LL is being played out of position, but there is no excuse for his jackassery.

Doughty isn't perfect, but I'll take a lesser gifted player who plays hard any day.
I'll take a player who plays smart over both of them.

[smoak]

I'll take a player who plays smart over both of them.

I think you are splitting hairs. Obviously nobody would want to put a player in the game that isn't ready mentally. Frankly that was Doughty's biggest issue IMO...

Hopefully he continues to progress b/c I really like the guy.

LL is stinking up the joint, and I don't see the effort I would want out of him.

[silverspring]

Totally agree. LL is being played out of position, but there is no excuse for his jackassery.

Doughty isn't perfect, but I'll take a lesser gifted player who plays hard any day.

LL has been a major disappointment for some time now. He went from being a feared player to someone who can't tackle and when he does he is always getting pushed backwards. Not being able to tackle soundly in the open field has nothing to do with him being out of position, it has to do with him playing with lazy technique.

Doughty certainly earned the promotion blache gave him last week. 8 solo tackles is no small stat. I wish those tackles were being made by players closer to the line of scrimmage, but doughty definitely did his job well. I also thought horton responded well to his demotion and came up with some good plays later in the game. Overall it seems like the move paid off.

[akhhorus]

LL has been a major disappointment for some time now. He went from being a feared player to someone who can't tackle and when he does he is always getting pushed backwards. Not being able to tackle soundly in the open field has nothing to do with him being out of position, it has to do with him playing with lazy technique.

Doughty certainly earned the promotion blache gave him last week. 8 solo tackles is no small stat. I wish those tackles were being made by players closer to the line of scrimmage, but doughty definitely did his job well. I also thought horton responded well to his demotion and came up with some good plays later in the game. Overall it seems like the move paid off.

The run defense was much improved? Really?

[Patrick]

The run defense was much improved? Really?
NOT much improved ........ they allowed an average of 4.2/ypc and that's not getting it done. Like I was questioning in another thread .....where was AH???

[smoak]

The run defense was much improved? Really?

Well if our $100MM man wasn't playing on greased ice it would have been. Obviously I am kidding a bit b/c he will make plays here and there but the point is that the D-line is getting beat at the point of attack.

[shally]

doughty may be limited physically, but he is one of the few players who actually tackles well one on one

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

without fletcher or doughty playing,the d would look much worse.nobody comes close to tackling as well as they do except rogers every once in awhile.:giantsuk::giantsuk:

[silverspring]

The run defense was much improved? Really?

No where in my post did I say the words "run defense".

The run defense has not been a bright spot, but the defense played a good game yesterday. They were put in plenty of bad spots, short fields and in general weren't given much hope from the offense to hold their heads up about yet still held it together. The offense coughed up the ball what 4 times, any average defense would have given up more than 13 points after dealing with 4 turnovers. Not too mention 7 of those points came from the first 2 minutes of the game and from the 10 yard line. The 3rd down completion stat is a very big deal it shows them shutting down drives which has always been a complaint of yours. The 2 long drives that tampa did have only resulted in field goals. On top of that I am happy to see that as much as we complain about blache's attachment to the old vet crew he has shaken it up a bit. You have to give credit where credit is due, the defense won this game.

[BurgundyNGold]

I think you are splitting hairs. Obviously nobody would want to put a player in the game that isn't ready mentally. Frankly that was Doughty's biggest issue IMO...

Hopefully he continues to progress b/c I really like the guy.

LL is stinking up the joint, and I don't see the effort I would want out of him.
Have you heard of Stephon Heyer? Brian Orakpo? Fred Davis? Devin Thomas? None of these guys were/are ready mentally.

Doughty's biggest issue is that he isn't physically gifted enough to be a complete safety. Play him at SS and we'll be fine. He's still too slow to make many plays in the backfield (or sacks) but he'll tackle players after 3 or 4 yards and keep them from galloping along the sideline. That's good enough for me, given who we have back there.

[BurgundyNGold]

LL has been a major disappointment for some time now. He went from being a feared player to someone who can't tackle and when he does he is always getting pushed backwards. Not being able to tackle soundly in the open field has nothing to do with him being out of position, it has to do with him playing with lazy technique.
Landry has never justified his pick as 5th overall. Especially when (ugh) Adrian Peterson went right after him. Rogers never justified his draft slot. Campbell either. Or any of the Deuces Wild crew of 2008.

This is a team of underachievers. I wonder why I'm shocked when they underachieve.

[akhhorus]

No where in my post did I say the words "run defense".

I don't care whether you brought it up or not, Doughty is a passing defense liability, so the only logical explanation for putting Doughty in would be to improve the run defense. The run defense was not improved.

The run defense has not been a bright spot, but the defense played a good game yesterday. They were put in plenty of bad spots, short fields and in general weren't given much hope from the offense to hold their heads up about yet still held it together. The offense coughed up the ball what 4 times, any average defense would have given up more than 13 points after dealing with 4 turnovers. Not too mention 7 of those points came from the first 2 minutes of the game and from the 10 yard line.

I've answered all this in my column and in the Good/Bud/Ugly thread.

The 3rd down completion stat is a very big deal it shows them shutting down drives which has always been a complaint of yours.

I answered this in my column. Tampa came into the game completing 23% of their 3rd down conversions, and the Skins held them to 15%. Excuse me while I don't celebrate.

The 2 long drives that tampa did have only resulted in field goals. On top of that I am happy to see that as much as we complain about blache's attachment to the old vet crew he has shaken it up a bit.

But he hasn't shaken it up a bit. The defense was unchanged. The only difference was that we were going against a piss poor Qb.

You have to give credit where credit is due, the defense won this game.

No, the offense did by deciding to wake up and score a quick 2 TDs. The defense was still on the field far too long and despite facing a terrible Qb, they were shredded up by a bad tampa running attack. Doughty starting didn't change the defense at all, which isn't a surprise since Doughty had been playing a lot during the first 3 games anyways.

[silverspring]

I don't care whether you brought it up or not, Doughty is a passing defense liability, so the only logical explanation for putting Doughty in would be to improve the run defense. The run defense was not improved.

What I saw yesterday was Doughty play a very solid game. He played in position, with good technique, sound tackling and basically did his job to a tee. I know you aren't very open minded and have a pre-conceived hatred for doughty and blache. But i don't know how you can not say that doughty played a good game. What plays did you see where doughty was a passing liability?

You yourself complain that:
4a-The fact that Doughty and Landry were the top tacklers on the team tell me that the first 2 levels of the defense aren’t doing their job.

So here you are saying the problem with the run defense is that the front levels aren't getting the job done. I would concur. But you can't have it both ways and say it is doughty's fault when here you are blaming the 2 front levels. Make up your mind flip flopper.



I've answered all this in my column and in the Good/Bud/Ugly thread.



I answered this in my column. Tampa came into the game completing 23% of their 3rd down conversions, and the Skins held them to 15%. Excuse me while I don't celebrate.

I haven't sifted through all your posts, but if you aren't happy with a 34% improvement over their average then what are you going to be happy with? Like anything else like this you are going to see a curve that flattens and as you get closer to zero it gets harder to make improvements. 15% is a great number, only you would find a way to twist it into a negative.



But he hasn't shaken it up a bit. The defense was unchanged. The only difference was that we were going against a piss poor Qb.

You haven't been pleasantly surprised to see him giving jeremy jarmon all these opportunities? I have. I thought we were just lucky to have orakpo in. Jarmon might fail, tryon might(probably will ) fail but at least we are seeing a youth movement. I find that to be positive, but go ahead and whine about it if you like.



No, the offense did by deciding to wake up and score quick 2 TDs. The defense was still on the field far too long and despite facing a terrible Qb, they were shredded up by a bad tampa running attack. Doughty starting didn't change the defense at all, which isn't a surprise since Doughty had been playing a lot during the first 3 games anyways.

Sorry I don't know how to argue with this. You would be the only person that doesn't think the defense shouldn't get the lion share of credit for winning this game. Even when jason did something right he would follow it up by giving up the momentum with an interception. Sorry the offense was putrid. Doughty played well end of story. Just because doughty starting didn't change the whole defense doesn't mean it was a bad move. It is simple as this, Doughty played a great game. Quit crying because you don't like him and be happy that he played well.

[akhhorus]

What I saw yesterday was Doughty play a very solid game. He played in position, with good technique, sound tackling and basically did his job to a tee. I know you aren't very open minded and have a pre-conceived hatred for doughty and blache. But i don't know how you can not say that doughty played a good game. What plays did you see where doughty was a passing liability?

The Strong Safety is responsible for taking the RB in the flat, especially when he's playing up as much as Blache plays Doughty up. The Bucs only consistent passing play was the Rb in the flat, which Doughty never covered well.

You yourself complain that:

So here you are saying the problem with the run defense is that the front levels aren't getting the job done. I would concur. But you can't have it both ways and say it is doughty's fault when here you are blaming the 2 front levels. Make up your mind flip flopper.


Its not flip flopping. Horton was benched for his run defense(specifically the Jackson play against the Rams). Doughty didn't improve that. The fact that the first 2 levels failed to the point where Landry and Doughty were the leading tacklers has nothing to do with how well Doughty is doing his job. All the tackle totals show is that the Landry and Doughty had to clean up for the rest of the defense's problems, but it doesn't show that they played good games. Landry actually played a pretty bad game except for one play. Maybe you should focus on the play on the field and not trying pathetic stretches at gotcha moments from what I've written.

I haven't sifted through all your posts, but if you aren't happy with a 34% improvement over their average then what are you going to be happy with? Like anything else like this you are going to see a curve that flattens and as you get closer to zero it gets harder to make improvements. 15% is a great number, only you would find a way to twist it into a negative.


Considering that the Bucs switched Qbs to a low talent rookie making his first start in the NFL, I would expect a low 3rd down rate. The Skins defense also let the Bucs improve on their TOP by nearly 20%, but I don't expect a relevant response to that fact from you.

You haven't been pleasantly surprised to see him giving jeremy jarmon all these opportunities? I have. I thought we were just lucky to have orakpo in. Jarmon might fail, tryon might(probably will ) fail but at least we are seeing a youth movement. I find that to be positive, but go ahead and whine about it if you like.

Playing Jarmon doesn't change the scheme. The scheme is the problem(personnel is a problem also) because it is totally ineffective. Blache said that he was going to change things up, then admitted after the game that he was lying. Thats not whining, but a fact.

Sorry I don't know how to argue with this. You would be the only person that doesn't think the defense shouldn't get the lion share of credit for winning this game.

I don't care what others think.

Even when jason did something right he would follow it up by giving up the momentum with an interception. Sorry the offense was putrid.

And the defense gave up 3 scoring drives(and 2 missed FG drives) to a pathetic offense. The offense was bad for 3 quarters, but the defense still didn't do their job.

Doughty played well end of story.

I realize you're a sycophant for Doughty, but you can at least make a better case than this comment.

Just because doughty starting didn't change the whole defense doesn't mean it was a bad move.

The point of benching a starter is so that the defense will improve. If you're benching someone and seeing no improvement, then the player you benched isn't the problem.

It is simple as this, Doughty played a great game. Quit crying because you don't like him and be happy that he played well.

He didn't play well and the defense wasn't improved. He got a lot of tackles because the lbs and Dline failed badly. Its that simple. But I can't say I'm surprised you trying to defend Doughty against all reality and facts.

[shally]

Landry has never justified his pick as 5th overall. Especially when (ugh) Adrian Peterson went right after him. Rogers never justified his draft slot. Campbell either. Or any of the Deuces Wild crew of 2008.

This is a team of underachievers. I wonder why I'm shocked when they underachieve.

+1

when your highest picks underperform it is both an indictment of your scouting, and also usually leads to poor W/L records in the long run

[BurgundyNGold]

He didn't play well and the defense wasn't improved. He got a lot of tackles because the lbs and Dline failed badly. Its that simple. But I can't say I'm surprised you trying to defend Doughty against all reality and facts.
I think we can say that Doughty tackled well. As for having played well... I think that's a judgment call. When you only play half a phase of your position, you're automatically not going to be evaluated for 50% of what you should be doing. And since I don't recall any sacks or tackles for a loss by Doughty, I can't say that he played "well". I can say that he played run defense adequately in support of a DL and LB corps that played the run very poorly.

[akhhorus]

I think we can say that Doughty tackled well. As for having played well... I think that's a judgment call. When you only play half a phase of your position, you're automatically not going to be evaluated for 50% of what you should be doing. And since I don't recall any sacks or tackles for a loss by Doughty, I can't say that he played "well". I can say that he played run defense adequately in support of a DL and LB corps that played the run very poorly.

The only good play I saw him make was a stop on 3rd down where he stopped the guy 1.5-2 yards from the sticks. Other than that, I saw him blow a lot of those coverages in the flat and made tackles long after the RB had blown past the Dline/Lbs.

[silverspring]

The Strong Safety is responsible for taking the RB in the flat, especially when he's playing up as much as Blache plays Doughty up. The Bucs only consistent passing play was the Rb in the flat, which Doughty never covered well.



Its not flip flopping. Horton was benched for his run defense(specifically the Jackson play against the Rams). Doughty didn't improve that. The fact that the first 2 levels failed to the point where Landry and Doughty were the leading tacklers has nothing to do with how well Doughty is doing his job. All the tackle totals show is that the Landry and Doughty had to clean up for the rest of the defense's problems, but it doesn't show that they played good games. Landry actually played a pretty bad game except for one play. Maybe you should focus on the play on the field and not trying pathetic stretches at gotcha moments from what I've written.



Considering that the Bucs switched Qbs to a low talent rookie making his first start in the NFL, I would expect a low 3rd down rate. The Skins defense also let the Bucs improve on their TOP by nearly 20%, but I don't expect a relevant response to that fact from you.



Playing Jarmon doesn't change the scheme. The scheme is the problem(personnel is a problem also) because it is totally ineffective. Blache said that he was going to change things up, then admitted after the game that he was lying. Thats not whining, but a fact.



I don't care what others think.



And the defense gave up 3 scoring drives(and 2 missed FG drives) to a pathetic offense. The offense was bad for 3 quarters, but the defense still didn't do their job.



I realize you're a sycophant for Doughty, but you can at least make a better case than this comment.



The point of benching a starter is so that the defense will improve. If you're benching someone and seeing no improvement, then the player you benched isn't the problem.



He didn't play well and the defense wasn't improved. He got a lot of tackles because the lbs and Dline failed badly. Its that simple. But I can't say I'm surprised you trying to defend Doughty against all reality and facts.


You are the only person who expected doughty being declared the starter to change the entire defense. Blache didn't say I am promoting doughty because he fits better in my new improved scheme. He didn't say doughty will single-handedly stop the run, save this defense and bring back honor to the team :rolleyes:
I, like most people, just assumed he was being rewarded for playing well which I fully support. You apparently thought this move represented a full on revolution.

We must have watched a very different game because I saw doughty play very well. He always seemed to be doing the job assigned to him and taking care of his business. I can't recall a single play where he didn't do his job, make a big mistake or was a clear liability. You might perceive him as a liability but his play on the field didn't exhibit those symptoms.

[akhhorus]

You are the only person who expected doughty being declared the starter to change the entire defense.

Did I say that it would change the entire defense? You bench a player after a bad team performance for 2 reasons:
1-You think that he's a liability that causing the problems with the team
2-You think it will ignite the team to play better for whatever reason.

Neither was true in this case.

Blache didn't say I am promoting doughty because he fits better in my new improved scheme.

I never said that this was the premise for bringing in Doughty.

He didn't say doughty will single-handedly stop the run, save this defense and bring back honor to the team :rolleyes:

Well, good thing I never said that either, so you can stop creating straw men to attack.

I, like most people, just assumed he was being rewarded for playing well which I fully support. You apparently thought this move represented a full on revolution.


I never said that. Please stop creating straw men to attack since you can't respond to what I wrote.

We must have watched a very different game because I saw doughty play very well. He always seemed to be doing the job assigned to him and taking care of his business. I can't recall a single play where he didn't do his job, make a big mistake or was a clear liability. You might perceive him as a liability but his play on the field didn't exhibit those symptoms.

I've explained where he failed to do his job, you-once again-respond by with nothing more than straw men and ignoring what I wrote.