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KMDeMuth
10-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Rather then arguing over the QB situation, can we agree on any of this?

Jason does not fit this offense, slow release, slow at making decisions, makes bad decisions under pressure and has a fear of running.

The offensive line can not block or protect and Campbell doesn't have time.

I don't believe JC is a 'bad' QB. I think he is an average starting QB in the NFL. (and i just lost half the people reading this...ha ha) He is a QB who needs time to make decisions and when he makes bad decisions, he is mentally out of it the rest of the game. The O-line can not give him time, he doesn't fit the offense and he can't mentally adapt enough to make up for his lack of a physical fit in this "system." (not his fault he has coaches, a line and a system he doesn't fit with, but he sure is bad in it)

Anyway, Short-term fix is someone who makes up for what he can't do...
-Quick release
-Quick decision making
-Sound decisions (throw it away, run the ball, tuck it in and take the sack)
-Doesnt get screwed up when he makes poor decisions (ask his college coaches?)
___________________

Do you think Collins is enough of an improvement just because he makes better decisions and doesn't get screwed up mentally?...he is a veteran.

Should we cut Wynn 'again' and bring in Jeff Garcia who makes up for a bit more in this system then Collins does? (but makes more mistakes)

Is there any other veterans available?

Should we bring in chase from the practice squad of the saints? (if we even can)

Some people on ES are even recommending we let the Jason Campbell clone on the PS play... (i'd guess a lot more issues would come from that...)

Do we stick with Campbell knowing what we know? (again, i like the guy, but the geniuses upstairs brought in an offensive scheme that doesn't fit him or 90% of the players and ignored the O-line)

Its past the trade deadline, limited options and no real "quick fix" but at-least they could make it less painful. Should the skins not mess with the QB situation and go shopping for young O-line on practice squads around the league?
___________________

Another Question... It was said in the past few weeks that in a "true" west-coast offense the receivers run a route and 'stop.' The QB goes through a quick read of his options and makes a quick decision. It was noted that Redskins receivers did not 'stop' which further hurt the processes and decisions being made. Did anyone notice a change in how receivers played tonight, do you think sherm. is working on that if its an issue?

bigcmr
10-27-2009, 01:08 AM
You know what after tonight Im convinced JC will never work here. Its just time to move on. Too bad Colt is on IR atleast we might see what he can bring.

KMDeMuth
10-27-2009, 01:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c2zYyQmzv4
What i mean by route problems. Someone i had watched was talking about the west-coast offense, routes and QB decisions. Said sherm. noticed when he got here that the Redskins receivers don't run routes properly and the QB's aren't making decisions properly when receivers change the motion in their routes. Fundamental problems with the system and personnel not executing.

I understand there are different versions of the west-coast, but are the problems more then the O-line and QB. Are the receivers not executing the fundamentals of the west-coast system?

Brokenstriker
10-27-2009, 05:31 AM
Your list of things that are needed to address Campbell's weaknesses needs to include "accurate passes," "make all the 'throws'," and "make something out of nothing."

His inaccuracy neuters the potential of the passing game because the receivers have to break out of their route and adjust to attempt to catch passes that are behind them, or too high, killing the potential of yards after catch ... as well as kills drives due to incompletions

He appears to limit the definition of "open" to include the ability to connect with line-of-sight only, flat trajectory passes. He seems to ignore open receivers behind the coverage ... and he simply can not throw a fade

I think there is a longer list of people who think that JC is not a good QB.

Thanks to our GM ... No there isn't anything better on the roster. Unless Garcia has completely decayed over the past year (which is possible) he is an infinitely better option than Campbell for a West Coast offensive scheme. Bringing him in now though in mid season doesn't really offer much of an up-side. Begs the question, "why didn't the Skins take a long look at, and sign Garcia this past pre-season?" It was clear Campbell wasn't clicking last year, or in pre-season and its been clear that Campbell is the antithesis of a West Coast QB to virtually everyone not working in an executive office at Redskins Park since somebody decided that's what the Redskins offense "should" play.

Personal view is the Redskins are looking at too many "complete" roster shortcomings to correct in a year ... and probably too many to correct in 2 or 3 years without a complete and comprehensive plan to systematically recreate the team (see the approach that the Capitals took to go from terminally mediocre to consistently at the top of the league). Hope that this will happen but doubt that Snyder will replace Cerrato or face up to the fact that he has taken the Redskins to such depths that its time for a drastic and multi-year effort to try to raise the Skins from the ashes.

Brokenstriker
10-27-2009, 05:50 AM
oh ... and how about the "west coast offense" with its reliance on throwing 3 yard passes to convert on 3rd and 5 ... how about this entire package of passe NFL football schema be 5h|t-canned? Don't see the best teams in the 21st century playing this game (Saints, Patriots, Packers, Vikings, Broncos).

So sad ... Snyder is like some small town wanna be collecting all of the fad-gear he can get his hands on and always 10 years out of fashion ... west coast offense was unveiled in the early 80's and requires precise route running and accurate passing to allow the receivers to run with the ball after short completions. Defenses have had >25 years to adjust and game plan to deal with this (read how to play defense by Parcells) ... and even so ... "precise route running and accurate passing" ... 'nuf said.

nicefellow31
10-27-2009, 05:58 AM
oh ... and how about the "west coast offense" with its reliance on throwing 3 yard passes to convert on 3rd and 5 ... how about this entire package of passe NFL football schema be 5h|t-canned? Don't see the best teams in the 21st century playing this game (Saints, Patriots, Packers, Vikings, Broncos).

So sad ... Snyder is like some small town wanna be collecting all of the fad-gear he can get his hands on and always 10 years out of fashion ... west coast offense was unveiled in the early 80's and requires precise route running and accurate passing to allow the receivers to run with the ball after short completions. Defenses have had >25 years to adjust and game plan to deal with this (read how to play defense by Parcells) ... and even so ... "precise route running and accurate passing" ... 'nuf said.

Interesting post. What teams still run the so called West Coast offense? The Eagles, Vikings (?), Redskins, and who else?

Brokenstriker
10-27-2009, 08:34 AM
I wouldn't include the Eagles ... granted they have a one of a kind talent in Westbrook as a receiver ... but considering the one of a kind status ... that should be a warning sign to other OCs ... "do not proceed with out rare and applicable talent at RB"

I wouldn't include the Vikings either ... but I haven't seen enough of them this season. Certainly Farve the gunslinger isn't an ideal WC QB ... but I'm sure he can play that tune if the OC hums a couple bars.

You could add Seattle to the list ... so with the Skins and the Seahawks that's ... 4W 8L ... the 24th (Skins) and 23rd (Seahawks) ranked Total Offenses

yippie

SkinsfaninNJ
10-27-2009, 08:42 AM
Rather then arguing over the QB situation, can we agree on any of this?

Jason does not fit this offense, slow release, slow at making decisions, makes bad decisions under pressure and has a fear of running.

The offensive line can not block or protect and Campbell doesn't have time.

I don't believe JC is a 'bad' QB. I think he is an average starting QB in the NFL. (and i just lost half the people reading this...ha ha) He is a QB who needs time to make decisions and when he makes bad decisions, he is mentally out of it the rest of the game. The O-line can not give him time, he doesn't fit the offense and he can't mentally adapt enough to make up for his lack of a physical fit in this "system." (not his fault he has coaches, a line and a system he doesn't fit with, but he sure is bad in it)

Anyway, Short-term fix is someone who makes up for what he can't do...
-Quick release
-Quick decision making
-Sound decisions (throw it away, run the ball, tuck it in and take the sack)
-Doesnt get screwed up when he makes poor decisions (ask his college coaches?)
___________________

Do you think Collins is enough of an improvement just because he makes better decisions and doesn't get screwed up mentally?...he is a veteran.

Should we cut Wynn 'again' and bring in Jeff Garcia who makes up for a bit more in this system then Collins does? (but makes more mistakes)

Is there any other veterans available?

Should we bring in chase from the practice squad of the saints? (if we even can)

Some people on ES are even recommending we let the Jason Campbell clone on the PS play... (i'd guess a lot more issues would come from that...)

Do we stick with Campbell knowing what we know? (again, i like the guy, but the geniuses upstairs brought in an offensive scheme that doesn't fit him or 90% of the players and ignored the O-line)

Its past the trade deadline, limited options and no real "quick fix" but at-least they could make it less painful. Should the skins not mess with the QB situation and go shopping for young O-line on practice squads around the league?
___________________

Another Question... It was said in the past few weeks that in a "true" west-coast offense the receivers run a route and 'stop.' The QB goes through a quick read of his options and makes a quick decision. It was noted that Redskins receivers did not 'stop' which further hurt the processes and decisions being made. Did anyone notice a change in how receivers played tonight, do you think sherm. is working on that if its an issue?

What's available? Have you ever taken snaps behind center? Would you play for vet min?:)

In all seriousness, I would consider bringing in Garcia for a work out if I were them. I don't think they confidence in Collins. If they did, wouldn't he already be playing? Maybe I would consider trying to get Chase Daniel. I don't know if he is third qb or PS right now in NO. I think the fans would get enjoyment out of watching Chase Daniel run around trying to make plays.

Playing Campbell doesn't make much sense anymore. He doesn't give you a better chance to win then other QB's, and you're not developing him for the future or trade value. I would strongly consider doing something else with the position.

skinsfan36
10-27-2009, 10:07 AM
jeff garcia...and well jp losman would be better than campbell

Farmer Ted
10-27-2009, 10:36 AM
Anyway, Short-term fix is someone who makes up for what he can't do...
-Quick release
-Quick decision making
-Sound decisions (throw it away, run the ball, tuck it in and take the sack)
-Doesnt get screwed up when he makes poor decisions (ask his college coaches?)


During last week's game Gannon spent time showing and talking about Campbell's poor footwork, and Gruden did the same thing last night. They both said that the footwork caused him to be late and inaccurate on his throws. JC is like one of those 6'10" project power forwards who have the build, but never develop because they don't have the footwork in the low post. He's five years in, and this isn't going to change (among his other problems, like being dumb).

shally
10-27-2009, 12:02 PM
During last week's game Gannon spent time showing and talking about Campbell's poor footwork, and Gruden did the same thing last night. They both said that the footwork caused him to be late and inaccurate on his throws. JC is like one of those 6'10" project power forwards who have the build, but never develop because they don't have the footwork in the low post. He's five years in, and this isn't going to change (among his other problems, like being dumb).

we will have a different offensive scheme next season.. no reason to sign garcia for this season-- it is already lost

KMDeMuth
10-27-2009, 12:12 PM
I know the obvious problems JC is having with foot-work. (btw i laughed at the happy feet post in the game-day thread) I wouldn't say JC is just plain inaccurate, he needs time to do everything and doesn't have it. He just doesn't fit in this system and just about anything less then a mobile QB isn't going to have time with this O-line.

O-line sucks, first thing a guy out of the league for 4-5 years says is that fundamentals are bad. Zorn's big thing is supposed to be QB development, but atm JC is digressing. Many people are now saying its not the play calling, but the players. We know they don't fit this system and no QB 'fits' this O-line. Is the problem really coaching still? Are they just not prepared properly? Like Thomas said, are the people who might fit the system better, just not given opportunities?

All that seeming true there is a fundamental coaching and system failure going on here. Is there anything they can do at this point to make the games watchable, put a band-aid on the cut until someone can fix it? Whats available? (rather hope there is a chance vinny/zorn get fired and someone tries to do something besides saying... "guess we get a top 5 pick and lets give up")

Is Garcia a 'mobile' (is he still?) stop-gap who knows the real west-coast enough to give more then padded stats? Is there O-line help out there or even on this team they aren't giving opportunities because of bad coaching?

Would everyone rather quit discussing this and just give up? I'd like to hope even with the inept coaching and front office that they'd try to do...something.

SkinsfaninNJ
10-27-2009, 12:22 PM
we will have a different offensive scheme next season.. no reason to sign garcia for this season-- it is already lost

I would think Gracia would play for a one year deal.

I don't see how they can keep running Campbell out there. And it seems they have decided Collins is not an improvement.

Don't they owe it to the fans to try to do something to improve the offense for the next 9 games?

RedskinsDave
10-27-2009, 01:05 PM
What's available? 2-14.

shally
10-27-2009, 01:11 PM
I would think Gracia would play for a one year deal.

I don't see how they can keep running Campbell out there. And it seems they have decided Collins is not an improvement.

Don't they owe it to the fans to try to do something to improve the offense for the next 9 games?

too bad we dont have either Chase or Colt to give starting reps to..

shally
10-27-2009, 01:11 PM
What's available? 2-14.

top 3 pick inthe upcoming draft..

should be a great offensive tackle available at that position

Nomad
10-27-2009, 01:11 PM
Short term fix, ha, ha. We have 2 maybe 3 starting quality OL, no depth, no good RBs, nothing at QB. The solution is 2-4 years of drafting. There is no "quick fix."

shally
10-27-2009, 01:18 PM
Short term fix, ha, ha. We have 2 maybe 3 starting quality OL, no depth, no good RBs, nothing at QB. The solution is 2-4 years of drafting. There is no "quick fix."

not true.. you can "fix" an offensive line in one offseason.. get a 10 year starting L tackle in the first round of the draft (think walter jones or chris samuels).. add a young starting guard (think jason brown or randy thomas)
in fee agency. work the hell out of edwin williams and montgomery the remainder of the season and hope we get a starting center and quality reserve guard out of the deal. add in dockery and levi brown for at least 1 year and i think we could have at least a decent offensive line

Dept_of_Defense
10-27-2009, 02:22 PM
not true.. you can "fix" an offensive line in one offseason.. get a 10 year starting L tackle in the first round of the draft (think walter jones or chris samuels).. add a young starting guard (think jason brown or randy thomas)
in fee agency. work the hell out of edwin williams and montgomery the remainder of the season and hope we get a starting center and quality reserve guard out of the deal. add in dockery and levi brown for at least 1 year and i think we could have at least a decent offensive line

This sounds great, but my issue is who's going to be the guy making the picks? If it's Vinny, even if we do go O-Line, I don't trust his ability to scout properly and I feel like we're going to miss the guy that could play 10 years for us. Some other team is going to pick up an O-lineman that's going to make ours look like an overpaid, underachieving bust.....kinda like how DeSean Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round last year, but AFTER Devin Thomas.

28Zcomeback
10-27-2009, 10:24 PM
Bring in two vet QB's, Delhomme and Garcia. Draft a youngster in 3rd. Trade 1st pick down to pick up additional second this year and next. Get the big OL on at least one side. Bring in solid starting vet WR thru FA. Keep Portis, Betts, but run young guys as well. Draft DE with 2nd. Draft DB's in late rounds. Keep Fletcher. Keep Rogers, Smoot. Trade Jason to Titans for a 3rd or 4th. Trade Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly for a OLB. Keep Zorn.

cal_junior
10-27-2009, 10:44 PM
not true.. you can "fix" an offensive line in one offseason.. get a 10 year starting L tackle in the first round of the draft (think walter jones or chris samuels).. add a young starting guard (think jason brown or randy thomas)
in fee agency. work the hell out of edwin williams and montgomery the remainder of the season and hope we get a starting center and quality reserve guard out of the deal. add in dockery and levi brown for at least 1 year and i think we could have at least a decent offensive line

+1

We just need to find someone who can knock free agency and the draft out of the park this off-season.

skinsfan36
10-27-2009, 11:18 PM
Bring in two vet QB's, Delhomme and Garcia. Draft a youngster in 3rd. Trade 1st pick down to pick up additional second this year and next. Get the big OL on at least one side. Bring in solid starting vet WR thru FA. Keep Portis, Betts, but run young guys as well. Draft DE with 2nd. Draft DB's in late rounds. Keep Fletcher. Keep Rogers, Smoot. Trade Jason to Titans for a 3rd or 4th. Trade Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly for a OLB. Keep Zorn.

ok you lost me at that man thats awful

Dept_of_Defense
10-28-2009, 01:07 AM
Bring in two vet QB's, Delhomme and Garcia. Draft a youngster in 3rd. Trade 1st pick down to pick up additional second this year and next. Get the big OL on at least one side. Bring in solid starting vet WR thru FA. Keep Portis, Betts, but run young guys as well. Draft DE with 2nd. Draft DB's in late rounds. Keep Fletcher. Keep Rogers, Smoot. Trade Jason to Titans for a 3rd or 4th. Trade Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly for a OLB. Keep Zorn.

I'd be happy if we can get a 5th for Campbell.....No way I want Zorn back next year. I'll trade Thomas or Kelly, but not both. No way I want a DE in the 2nd, but I'll move Orakpo to DE and draft an OLB in the 3rd or 4th. O-line is priority in rounds 1-2.

JoeJacksonTaylor28
10-28-2009, 01:48 AM
Bring in two vet QB's, Delhomme and Garcia. Draft a youngster in 3rd. Trade 1st pick down to pick up additional second this year and next. Get the big OL on at least one side. Bring in solid starting vet WR thru FA. Keep Portis, Betts, but run young guys as well. Draft DE with 2nd. Draft DB's in late rounds. Keep Fletcher. Keep Rogers, Smoot. Trade Jason to Titans for a 3rd or 4th. Trade Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly for a OLB. Keep Zorn.

What?? Really?

-Delhomme? He is awful in Carolina, why would we want to have him here?

-I may be in the minority here, but I'm fed up with ALL of our current RBs.

-DE with 2nd?? Why?? We need a real coach both in O and D so we can move Orakpo back to DE, and Jarmon/Carter (if he is still here) on the other side.

-Keep Rogers? Did you see the game on monday?

-Trade Campbell? You do realize his contract expires after this season, right? And anyway, why would anybody give us anything for him? Especially a 3rd rounder!

-Sorry, but I find the idea of keeping Zorn just idiotic. The man is no NFL coaching material. I doubt you want to keep him just because he is nice. Can you elaborate on your reasons?

JoeJacksonTaylor28
10-28-2009, 01:50 AM
I'd be happy if we can get a 5th for Campbell.....No way I want Zorn back next year. I'll trade Thomas or Kelly, but not both. No way I want a DE in the 2nd, but I'll move Orakpo to DE and draft an OLB in the 3rd or 4th. O-line is priority in rounds 1-2.

Quoted for emphasis. I'd add rounds 3-7 though :)

Goskins11
10-30-2009, 08:01 AM
Quoted for emphasis. I'd add rounds 3-7 though :)

ha i agree,if the scouting is the same it might take all 7 picks(if they have all 7 ) to find one decent OL. This team needs a gm if they ever want to change. However, it is possible in todays nfl to turn it around in 1 or 2 years. Look at the dolphins last year.

WRSK1NS
10-30-2009, 08:14 AM
Bring in two vet QB's, Delhomme and Garcia. Draft a youngster in 3rd. Trade 1st pick down to pick up additional second this year and next. Get the big OL on at least one side. Bring in solid starting vet WR thru FA. Keep Portis, Betts, but run young guys as well. Draft DE with 2nd. Draft DB's in late rounds. Keep Fletcher. Keep Rogers, Smoot. Trade Jason to Titans for a 3rd or 4th. Trade Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly for a OLB. Keep Zorn.

Delhomme? Really? Why? He is a human pick throwing machine!

Hr fan
10-30-2009, 08:29 AM
To those who want to get into the draft - we already have a playoff roster, so why scout (quote from vinnie)? If you want to spend time/money on the draft spend more on draft mags, use the combine as a wine&dine write-off. If OL is the biggest problem ignore it in draft ala last year AFTER the staff identified it as the biggest problem, and compound it by admitting that you expected to lose the only two OL that are worth a s**t, and when that happens go get a RB, but NOT an OL even when OL #2 goes down (Jones came 1 week AFTER Samuels went down for a career)!!!

And adjust draft expectations, we are missing the 3rd (Jarmon) and the 6th (Jason Taylor).

shally
10-30-2009, 08:59 AM
i dont see any way that Snyder can permit Vinny to run personnel after this season

he might still be here, but he is going to be severely marginalized at the very least.. that will be the condition for ANYONE worthwhile coming here to coach..

WRSK1NS
10-30-2009, 09:15 AM
i dont see any way that Snyder can permit Vinny to run personnel after this season

he might still be here, but he is going to be severely marginalized at the very least.. that will be the condition for ANYONE worthwhile coming here to coach..

I keep expecting to hear that Vinny or "Someone" has been fired this week. I have also expected to hear that someone has been signed and/or released. The news is very slow out of redskins park these days.

AMISHSKINSFAN
10-30-2009, 09:20 AM
ha i agree,if the scouting is the same it might take all 7 picks(if they have all 7 ) to find one decent OL. This team needs a gm if they ever want to change. However, it is possible in todays nfl to turn it around in 1 or 2 years. Look at the dolphins last year.

Right, but they have Parcells. We, of course, have Viceroy Charlie.

Moe
10-30-2009, 09:43 AM
Bring in two vet QB's, Delhomme and Garcia.

Sigh, Delhomme has tossed 21 int's in the last 7 games. 21! He's immobile, playing scared and singlehandedly murdering that team. Steve Smith has zero td's this year and has gone public saying that he doesn't think he's an asset to the team anymore. Add in that the Panthers extened Jake this off-season for an additional 4 years and $20mill in guarantees, so we can thank Marty Hurney (their GM) for him not being anywhere near this teams radar.

Draft a youngster in 3rd.

QB is a necessity, take the best prospect regardless of round. Slotting like this reduces the chances of success.

Trade 1st pick down to pick up additional second this year and next. Get the big OL on at least one side.

Can't argue here.

Bring in solid starting vet WR thru FA. Keep Portis, Betts, but run young guys as well.

Likely a necessity considering one or more of Moss/ARE are likely gone. Betts can move along his merry way.

Draft DE with 2nd. Draft DB's in late rounds.

DE has some depth, LB doesn't or (crazy idea) pick another o-lineman. DB's late isn't a bad idea.

Keep Fletcher. Keep Rogers, Smoot. Trade Jason to Titans for a 3rd or 4th. Trade Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly for a OLB. Keep Zorn.

I could live with Rogers for the right price, but Smoot can't play anymore. Jason isn't tradable, no sense in trading a WR for an OLB there'll be tons open in free agency. Pay for Zorn to relocate.

Skinzlover223
10-30-2009, 10:11 AM
There is no need to get Jeff Garcia at this point, he might actually get us some wins and we will be removed from Top 10 draft pick status.

Poindexter
10-30-2009, 11:53 AM
Whats available?

With the first pick in the 2010 NFL Draft, the Washington Redskins select Free Safety from USC....Taylor Mays

With our philosophy of taking the best player available, Taylor Mays will be that guy

Keino
10-30-2009, 12:04 PM
What's available? 2-14.

I'll take it with a side of Censorship. Thanks.

How much? Oh $5 grand. No problem.

PhilVan
10-30-2009, 12:13 PM
1/ Fire Vinny and replace with areal GM. Someone who is activly in the league this year so we won't be behind in scouting etc....

2/ Revamp scouting

3/ FA OL

4/ FA OL

5/ Draft OL

6/ Draft OL

7/ FA OL

8/ FA LB

New coach or new QB does not matter till we do this. JZ JC and CP were hot commodities this ntime last year before the wheels came off our OL. If we had just fixed the OL and nothing else we would be a 2 loss team right now at worst and have some confidence. It is like a nice car with bald tires sooner or later it won't run and chaging the rims, painting it or putting a nice engine in is not going to make it go.

We need a foundation.

GloryHog
10-30-2009, 01:12 PM
I keep expecting to hear that Vinny or "Someone" has been fired this week. I have also expected to hear that someone has been signed and/or released. The news is very slow out of redskins park these days.

They're much too busy hunkering down trying to fend off the assault by the fans and media. It's much more important to be worrying about signs in the stadium and spinning an alternate reality about how they gave Zorn a playoff ready team.

Given the current situation, I agree with what some others have said about not doing anything that might take us out of the top five picks in next years draft.