Pure Speculation from me...

[Skaggsrules]

But with the Browns trading Brady Quinn, and with no viable option at QB for them (Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace...really) does this create a viable trade down option for us

The Browns will definitely be looking at QB, and since they did purge some of the roster since the Braylon Edwards trade, round 1 might be a good place for them. Considering Sam Bradford and Jimmy Clausen have a decent chance of being gone by pick #7, do you think we can trade down with them so they can get one of the two, while we could pick up much needed picks?

[akhhorus]

Very few trades out of the top 5 in recent memory for good reason: teams in the top 5 need the potential talent they could get staying there and teams outside the top 5 don't want to give up the picks that the top 5 teams demand to move out of the top 5.

As for Cleveland, they might take a flyer pick late, but I think that they're fine with Wallace/Delhomme for now. Or Holmgren is setting up the Mangina for failure so he can bring in the new QB of the future with the next coach.

[shally]

Very few trades out of the top 5 in recent memory for good reason: teams in the top 5 need the potential talent they could get staying there and teams outside the top 5 don't want to give up the picks that the top 5 teams demand to move out of the top 5.

As for Cleveland, they might take a flyer pick late, but I think that they're fine with Wallace/Delhomme for now. Or Holmgren is setting up the Mangina for failure so he can bring in the new QB of the future with the next coach.

+1 on that

both delhomme and wallace have started in the nfl. they might not be long term possibilities now, but they both should be quick studies for mangina's system.. as you say, i think mangina has one year to show his offense will work. having a rookie gives him a second year, and i dont see holmgren giving him that much rope..

they are going to try and build the team around the caretaker qb spot and then go for a long term qb in 2011 with a new head coach in all probability as you say

[Redskin-4-life]

I think that it's a possibility depending on how the FO feel about the Bradford and Clausen. You know the Cleveland is going to target a young QB to develop behind Delhomme and Wallace. Whether they are able to put together a package that makes since for us is another story.

[Taylor21TheUndertaker]

Somebody explain to me why the difference on the pick value chart from pick one to four is 1200 points, while the difference between 4 and 7 is but 300 points? It seems a bit extreme and would seemingly make picks starting at #4 easier to be dealt, value wise anyhow.

[LATrueRedskin]

I think Holmgren got his guy for now in Delhomme, and is going to bite the bullett on QB this year. I think he's satisfied with what he has, and will focus on other holes on their team. They have so many needs that they can't afford to give up players and picks in order to move up.

[warpaint]

But with the Browns trading Brady Quinn, and with no viable option at QB for them (Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace...really) does this create a viable trade down option for us

The Browns will definitely be looking at QB, and since they did purge some of the roster since the Braylon Edwards trade, round 1 might be a good place for them. Considering Sam Bradford and Jimmy Clausen have a decent chance of being gone by pick #7, do you think we can trade down with them so they can get one of the two, while we could pick up much needed picks?

just based on what i have read seattle as well as cleveland may well be looking at bradford or clausen in the draft ,thus cleveland who got a third round pick in a recent trade could want to leapfrog seattle should either of these q.b be available when we pick, the value of our pick (4th) is 1,800 points ,the value of clevelands 7th pick is 1,500 and their 3rd round pick is 235 points , probably a workable trade if both sides wanted to do work a trade.

[Hr fan]

A lot will shake out on draft day, but IMO trade-ups in the top 10 are possible. Several teams, including Cleveland, are well below the floor of salaries that no longer exists for 2010. And offing Quinn saved a lot in potential salary. Maybe trade downs are more likely in an uncaped year since so much of the rookie contract can be allocated to 2010/signing bonus and maybe tied to incentives more than in the past. Also 1 QB should be available at least. Maybe...

[whiskeytown]

i agree with those who say cleveland will stick with Delhomme/Wallace, and maybe grab a QB in the late rounds and hope to get lucky. Holmgren probably still thinks Wallace had a chance. Delhomme is a vet with something to prove. Cleveland just went down the 1st-rounder-bigname draftpick road with Quinn so i dont see them jumping back into that game, especially considering that Bradford/Claussen aren't exactly consensus elite guys.

[Moe]

Holmgren has always been very involved with his QB's and while he isn't the coach, I think bringing in Wallace and Jacques gives him options (familiarity with ther former, experience with the latter) to move forward this year and re-evaluate. It's highly likely that Mangini gets the boot so Holmgren could have brought these two in simply as place holders and will work with the new coach next year on the QB of the future.

[Nomad]

No.

Here's why:

We seem to want Bradford. Clausen is not a top-10 pick. He lacks elite arm strength and has character flags for being so arrogant and such a d$ckhead. This is a MAJOR concern for evaluators that value character--and Holmgren is that kind of guy.

Suppose Holmgren might trade up for Bradford--an ideal WCO QB. We wouldn't trade. We're taking Bradford if he's there.

Holmgren is dumping all players that don't fit system or underproduce and amassing draft picks. He is getting what he can for these guys--as we hopefully will Campbell. He has 13 draft picks--if they all (ha, ha) make the team he has remade 1/4 of his roster in one draft.

It would not surprise me at all to see Holmgren trade down repeatedly and amass even more picks. I think his basic approach will be to bring in as many bodies as he can.

Don't forget that Holmgren coached Favre--and Bradford doesn't have nearly that degree of athleticism or arm strength. It wouldn't surprise me if Holmgren wasn't as wowed as others. Injury flags, no defense reading, little work under center. Maybe you take him at four, but to trade multiple picks for a player with so many questions and who is a huge step below guys like Elway and Favre in terms of raw athleticism and arm strength.

No.

Cleveland has some talent--but also holes almost everywhere. Holmgren will stick to his draft board, work it, and try and walk away from this draft with 16 picks. He has 3 third rounders. Some team gets antsy, wouldn't surprise me to see him trade down with one of those.

Only 5 picks for us--Vinny Cerrato, the gift that keeps on giving.

[paulskinsfan]

I think this scenario is very plausible. Holmgren knows the value of a QB, and there are only 2 QBs projected in the 1st round, Bradford and Clausen. Presuming Bradford goes No. 1, then Cleveland could very well trade with the Skins in round 1 to get Clausen. I like the Skins position at No. 4, I really do. If Bradford goes 1, then we can dangle the opportunity to draft Clausen to both Seattle and Cleveland. If no takers, then Okung. If for some reason Okung is gone and Bradford, then we take one of the premier DTs and go OT in round 2. Looks to me like the Skins are in a pretty good position.

[Moe]

We seem to want Bradford. Clausen is not a top-10 pick. He lacks elite arm strength and has character flags for being so arrogant and such a d$ckhead.

There are several valid criticisms of Clausen but arm strength simply isn't one of them. His arm is stronger than that of Bradford and one of the best in the this years draft.

Holmgren is dumping all players that don't fit system or underproduce and amassing draft picks. He is getting what he can for these guys--as we hopefully will Campbell. He has 13 draft picks--if they all (ha, ha) make the team he has remade 1/4 of his roster in one draft.

It would not surprise me at all to see Holmgren trade down repeatedly and amass even more picks. I think his basic approach will be to bring in as many bodies as he can.

Agreed. The Browns need a massive overhaul and he's stocking the shelves as further enticement for his next head coach (Cowher?). Mangini is a lame duck, that team lacks talent across the board and Holmgren is putting his stamp on things.

Don't forget that Holmgren coached Favre--and Bradford doesn't have nearly that degree of athleticism or arm strength. It wouldn't surprise me if Holmgren wasn't as wowed as others. Injury flags, no defense reading, little work under center. Maybe you take him at four, but to trade multiple picks for a player with so many questions and who is a huge step below guys like Elway and Favre in terms of raw athleticism and arm strength.

He also traded for Hasselbeck whose primary strengths were accuracy and timing and not arm strength or overwhleming athleticism. Now I don't think Cleveland will trade up this year, but if they like Bradford then they'll have to move multiple picks to go up and get him; that's the price of business in the draft.

[chicago_skinz_fan]

There are several valid criticisms of Clausen but arm strength simply isn't one of them. His arm is stronger than that of Bradford and one of the best in the this years draft.

+1 I watched a lot of ND football being as they are my fav college team. Jimmy Clausen might have an arrogance to him, and he comes across as a huge douche, however his ability is all there.

He can make every NFL throw. He has a great arm, he has phenominal accuracy, he is a leader on the field (not sure about off the field), he wants the ball when it's crunch time, and can make plays. The other thing to note is the kid is tough, and can take a lick. He was crushed his first two years at ND behind center. He can stand in the pocket and take a beating, that's for damn sure. He also has exceptional pocket presance and knows how to buy himself time to make plays, and when to run to get the first down. Also, he can play hurt. He had a real bad turf toe issue his last year at ND and played the rest of the season with a split on his toe and continued to move around the pocket and make the throws that he needed to make.

I am not sure there is a QB in the draft that has had more 4th quarter game winning drives than Jimmy Clausen. I really think that's saying something, especially when running the NFL type of offense that he ran at ND. Also the tulliage of Charlie Weiss has to count for something...

[akhhorus]

+1 I watched a lot of ND football being as they are my fav college team. Jimmy Clausen might have an arrogance to him, and he comes across as a huge douche, however his ability is all there.

He can make every NFL throw. He has a great arm, he has phenominal accuracy, he is a leader on the field (not sure about off the field), he wants the ball when it's crunch time, and can make plays. The other thing to note is the kid is tough, and can take a lick. He was crushed his first two years at ND behind center. He can stand in the pocket and take a beating, that's for damn sure. He also has exceptional pocket presance and knows how to buy himself time to make plays, and when to run to get the first down. Also, he can play hurt. He had a real bad turf toe issue his last year at ND and played the rest of the season with a split on his toe and continued to move around the pocket and make the throws that he needed to make.

I am not sure there is a QB in the draft that has had more 4th quarter game winning drives than Jimmy Clausen. I really think that's saying something, especially when running the NFL type of offense that he ran at ND. Also the tulliage of Charlie Weiss has to count for something...

Those must have been all of his wins since he didn't have many of those at Notre Dame lol.

And they didn't run an NFL style offense, they passed way too much to be "NFL style."

[chicago_skinz_fan]

Those must have been all of his wins since he didn't have many of those at Notre Dame lol.

And they didn't run an NFL style offense, they passed way too much to be "NFL style."

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nd/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/09-clausen-flyer.pdf

Couple of interesting snips from the above link:

"Clausen is the first Notre Dame QB to ever register four fourth quarter come-from-behind victories in a single season. He is also the first Irish QB to register five fourth quarter comebacks in a single season."

"Clausen has been tremendous in the clutch for the Irish this season. He has recorded 18 touchdowns and three turnovers when Notre Dame has been tied or trailing (16 passing TDs, two rushing TDs)."


Regarding the running game. Notre Dame definately ran the ball. They didn't run nearly enough because they were consistantly playing from behind and their defense sucked. However, they definately had talented running backs and could run the ball when they needed to.

[The Skinsinator]

+1 I watched a lot of ND football being as they are my fav college team. Jimmy Clausen might have an arrogance to him, and he comes across as a huge douche, however his ability is all there.

He can make every NFL throw. He has a great arm, he has phenominal accuracy, he is a leader on the field (not sure about off the field), he wants the ball when it's crunch time, and can make plays. The other thing to note is the kid is tough, and can take a lick. He was crushed his first two years at ND behind center. He can stand in the pocket and take a beating, that's for damn sure. He also has exceptional pocket presance and knows how to buy himself time to make plays, and when to run to get the first down. Also, he can play hurt. He had a real bad turf toe issue his last year at ND and played the rest of the season with a split on his toe and continued to move around the pocket and make the throws that he needed to make.

I am not sure there is a QB in the draft that has had more 4th quarter game winning drives than Jimmy Clausen. I really think that's saying something, especially when running the NFL type of offense that he ran at ND. Also the tulliage of Charlie Weiss has to count for something...This sums up my feelings on Clausen also. He is a safer pick than Bradford and has less bust factor. His life is footall and the kid flat out wants to win. If it weren't for a fall by Duval Kamara he'd have come back and beat USC last year. Yes they destroyed him in 2008. He came back and beat Purdue, MSU, BC and should have beaten Michigan if it weren't for the refs. He still put up 34 points on the road in this game and had 1-2 tds literally taken from Big 10 refs.

I can understand the personality issues a bit but drafting EITHER of these guys is a risk this high. As I stated in another thread, I do think both will be successful in the pros by like Clausen better.

[akhhorus]

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nd/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/09-clausen-flyer.pdf

Couple of interesting snips from the above link:

"Clausen is the first Notre Dame QB to ever register four fourth quarter come-from-behind victories in a single season. He is also the first Irish QB to register five fourth quarter comebacks in a single season."

"Clausen has been tremendous in the clutch for the Irish this season. He has recorded 18 touchdowns and three turnovers when Notre Dame has been tied or trailing (16 passing TDs, two rushing TDs)."

*shrug* I've watched a ton of Clausen, and I wouldn't draft him with our 2nd round pick much less our first. He's a terrible prospect who should have stayed another year. I'd much rather draft Tebow.


Regarding the running game. Notre Dame definately ran the ball. They didn't run nearly enough because they were consistantly playing from behind and their defense sucked. However, they definately had talented running backs and could run the ball when they needed to.

Their top two rbs combined for about 220 carries last year. Clausen threw the ball 400 times. They didn't run the ball that much lol. And if the defense sucked so much that they had to alter their offense to throw a ton, then Clausen's stats aren't nearly as impressive since it would follow that he was padding stats against defenses just looking to bleed the clock. In the Navy game, he put up a superficially impressive 452 yards. 250 of them came after Navy got up 2 scores in the late 3rd quarter. Thanks for showing up when it mattered Jimmy lol.

[chicago_skinz_fan]

*shrug* I've watched a ton of Clausen, and I wouldn't draft him with our 2nd round pick much less our first. He's a terrible prospect who should have stayed another year. I'd much rather draft Tebow.




Their top two rbs combined for about 220 carries last year. Clausen threw the ball 400 times. They didn't run the ball that much lol. And if the defense sucked so much that they had to alter their offense to throw a ton, then Clausen's stats aren't nearly as impressive since it would follow that he was padding stats against defenses just looking to bleed the clock. In the Navy game, he put up a superficially impressive 452 yards. 250 of them came after Navy got up 2 scores in the late 3rd quarter. Thanks for showing up when it mattered Jimmy lol.

I don't think we should draft him either. I would rather us focus on other needs than a QB. I was just pointing out to the poster who said that Clausen doesn't have the arm strength which is incorrect, he has the arm strength to make all the throws.

Stats can be sliced a variety of ways. I agree, there were some games out there where Clausen put up some great stats, however the comeback win stats I would argue are impressive. The kid definately has it mentally and has the tools physically to be good.

I really think he will be a good NFL QB. However, I still wouldn't draft him with the fourth pick in the draft. ;)

[akhhorus]

I don't think we should draft him either. I would rather us focus on other needs than a QB. I was just pointing out to the poster who said that Clausen doesn't have the arm strength which is incorrect, he has the arm strength to make all the throws.

Stats can be sliced a variety of ways. I agree, there were some games out there where Clausen put up some great stats, however the comeback win stats I would argue are impressive. The kid definately has it mentally and has the tools physically to be good.

I really think he will be a good NFL QB. However, I still wouldn't draft him with the fourth pick in the draft. ;)

I disagree. Brady Quinn was a much better prospect than Clausen who actually did well in college without a great team around him. Quinn beats him in mental and physical tools across the board and he went to at least one BCS bowl game almost completely thanks to his play(and almost beat Southern Cal twice).

Quinn was just dealt for spare parts since no one really wanted him after he flamed out in Cleveland. I don't see what anyone sees in Clausen.

[shally]

I disagree. Brady Quinn was a much better prospect than Clausen who actually did well in college without a great team around him. Quinn beats him in mental and physical tools across the board and he went to at least one BCS bowl game almost completely thanks to his play(and almost beat Southern Cal twice).

Quinn was just dealt for spare parts since no one really wanted him after he flamed out in Cleveland. I don't see what anyone sees in Clausen.

we better hope that Shanahan doesnt see anything great in Clausen, because if HE does, that is who the pick will be..Shanahan can be very stubborn in that regard

[chicago_skinz_fan]

I disagree. Brady Quinn was a much better prospect than Clausen who actually did well in college without a great team around him. Quinn beats him in mental and physical tools across the board and he went to at least one BCS bowl game almost completely thanks to his play(and almost beat Southern Cal twice).

Quinn was just dealt for spare parts since no one really wanted him after he flamed out in Cleveland. I don't see what anyone sees in Clausen.

Are you saying that Clausen played on a great team? ND has been stinking it up for years now. I would argue that both quarterbacks were on mediocore teams at best. I don't think one's team was clearly better than the others to be honest. I would argue that the Brady Quinn ND teams were better than Clausen's ND teams.

It seems Clausen has more buzz around him as a prospect than Quinn had. Which baffled me at the time. Clausen seems more like a pure QB than Quinn (if that makes any sense).

[akhhorus]

Are you saying that Clausen played on a great team? ND has been stinking it up for years now. I would argue that both quarterbacks were on mediocore teams at best. I don't think one's team was clearly better than the others to be honest. I would argue that the Brady Quinn ND teams were better than Clausen's ND teams.

You misread what I said. I was saying that Quinn had so-so teams around him talent wise, but he took them far. I agree that they were better than Clausen's teams, but not by a whole lot. Weis has done well pouring talent into Notre Dame, but he's chosen bad coaches to try and develop them.

It seems Clausen has more buzz around him as a prospect than Quinn had. Which baffled me at the time. Clausen seems more like a pure QB than Quinn (if that makes any sense).

I think that they have the same amount of buzz. Quinn was seen as a top 10 pick among the media/draftniks. The league thought otherwise lol. I have a feeling that Clausen will have the same character arc.

[BIGREDSKINSFAN1963]

i'll give shanny creit though,he does have a way to make qbs play a lot better than most everybody thinks they can.i like pike a lot better than i do clausen,
and from from what i have heard and read,the bills want clausen badly!

[tuckahoeskin]

I disagree. Brady Quinn was a much better prospect than Clausen who actually did well in college without a great team around him. Quinn beats him in mental and physical tools across the board and he went to at least one BCS bowl game almost completely thanks to his play(and almost beat Southern Cal twice).

Quinn was just dealt for spare parts since no one really wanted him after he flamed out in Cleveland. I don't see what anyone sees in Clausen.

Agree with your assessment of Clausen. From the games I've seen, he just didn't have "it" to me. Some claim he has the arm, but a number of highlights they keep showing on NFL Network don't really prove it's all that strong. Honestly, if Bradford is gone, I see no reason why we should take Clausen in the first if there's a Colt McCoy available later. While Clausen and McCoy may or may never make it in the NFL, one comes at a far less steep price.

[lorimike]

Agree with your assessment of Clausen. From the games I've seen, he just didn't have "it" to me. Some claim he has the arm, but a number of highlights they keep showing on NFL Network don't really prove it's all that strong. Honestly, if Bradford is gone, I see no reason why we should take Clausen in the first if there's a Colt McCoy available later. While Clausen and McCoy may or may never make it in the NFL, one comes at a far less steep price.<<<

Get a pair of Tackles. Kaftka from Northwestern with our 4th rounder.

[akhhorus]

Agree with your assessment of Clausen. From the games I've seen, he just didn't have "it" to me. Some claim he has the arm, but a number of highlights they keep showing on NFL Network don't really prove it's all that strong. Honestly, if Bradford is gone, I see no reason why we should take Clausen in the first if there's a Colt McCoy available later. While Clausen and McCoy may or may never make it in the NFL, one comes at a far less steep price.

Thats a good way to put it. He just doesn't appear to have the indescribable quality of nfl level "it." McCoy or Tebow don't seem to have any NFL viable tools, but they might have "it." Doesn't mean that they'll do anything in the NFL, but they might in the right circumstance. Clausen, who knows. I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole.

[tuckahoeskin]

Thats a good way to put it. He just doesn't appear to have the indescribable quality of nfl level "it." McCoy or Tebow don't seem to have any NFL viable tools, but they might have "it." Doesn't mean that they'll do anything in the NFL, but they might in the right circumstance. Clausen, who knows. I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole.

Agree. Regarding McCoy, I've never been a huge fan, but I'd bet a dollar on his long term success in the league compared to Clausen. Somewhat of a gut feeling, to be honest. The kid has produced on the big stage. Yes, he had a lot of tools to throw to/hand off to but he produced fairly well with them. Also agree with you that McCoy would need to be in the right system. I could see him as an effective game manager. He seems more mature than Clausen in the interviews I've seen.

[Nomad]

There are several valid criticisms of Clausen but arm strength simply isn't one of them. His arm is stronger than that of Bradford and one of the best in the this years draft.

Claussen does not have an elite arm. His deep ball often flutters, and he is not accurate deep with consistency. Does he have a good arm? Yes. Great arm? No way. This is a thin QB class, someone will reach, but he is a 2nd round pick. I'd much rather roll the dice on Bradford's health than Claussen's character.


Agreed. The Browns need a massive overhaul and he's stocking the shelves as further enticement for his next head coach (Cowher?). Mangini is a lame duck, that team lacks talent across the board and Holmgren is putting his stamp on things.



He also traded for Hasselbeck whose primary strengths were accuracy and timing and not arm strength or overwhleming athleticism. Now I don't think Cleveland will trade up this year, but if they like Bradford then they'll have to move multiple picks to go up and get him; that's the price of business in the draft.

Obviously on price of business. Hasselback is a team guy, Claussen is a hole. Did he win a SB with Hasselback? He did with Favre. Think he hasn't contemplated the differences? All I'm saying is, he's not giving multiple picks up to move up unless its for the complete package, and that isn't Bradford or Claussen. Bradford could succeed, but Holmgren is not giving up the picks and money to roll the dice. He just isn't. And he's right.

I think Holmgren is going BPA all the way, regardless of position throughout the entire draft. He knows the Browns are a few years from being competitive. I don't see Claussen as franchise caliber players, perennial All-Pro. As another example, Okung is no Joe Thomas. I think Eric Berry could be a perennial All-Pro. I think a pick like that is more realistic for Holmgren. He'll play it safe, make sure he infuses lots of talent, and worry about rounding out roster year later. Watson, the RB he traded for, Joe Thomas--they have some talent, most of it pretty young. I think later rounds Holmgrens ONLY concern will be: can this guy make the roster, again BPA.

To me, his QB moves, two guys that could both start in his mind, means that he doesn't see either top QB as realistic. No way Bradford slides that far, no way he's trading, and later QB picks will have to develop. Also, remember, in regards to Claussen, Holmgren just traded another supposed Notre Dame golden boy who was overhyped and busted, and Brady Quinn and Claussen are somewhat similar creatures in some ways in terms of questionable mechanics, d$ckhead attitudes, etc. It is ridiculous to suggest that they would trade Quinn, and then trade multiple picks to draft another very similar QB. Like Quinn, Claussen will have accuracy issues at the next level.

Holmgren has 2 QBs he believes can compete to start, and will probably draft a developmental. He didn't pay Delhomme $7 mil to ride the pine. He has freed himself up to draft BPA everywhere, without concern for position.

[BurgundyNGold]

Agree with your assessment of Clausen. From the games I've seen, he just didn't have "it" to me. Some claim he has the arm, but a number of highlights they keep showing on NFL Network don't really prove it's all that strong. Honestly, if Bradford is gone, I see no reason why we should take Clausen in the first if there's a Colt McCoy available later. While Clausen and McCoy may or may never make it in the NFL, one comes at a far less steep price.
The thought of drafting McCoy makes me want to vomit almost as much as Claussen (sic). Honestly, aside from Bradford (who still has question marks but is the best of the bunch), I'm not really impressed with this year's QB crop.

[IowaSkinsFan]

But with the Browns trading Brady Quinn, and with no viable option at QB for them (Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace...really) does this create a viable trade down option for us

The Browns will definitely be looking at QB, and since they did purge some of the roster since the Braylon Edwards trade, round 1 might be a good place for them. Considering Sam Bradford and Jimmy Clausen have a decent chance of being gone by pick #7, do you think we can trade down with them so they can get one of the two, while we could pick up much needed picks?


http://www.hailredskins.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=1305534&postcount=5

[The Skinsinator]

The thought of drafting McCoy makes me want to vomit almost as much as Claussen (sic). Honestly, aside from Bradford (who still has question marks but is the best of the bunch), I'm not really impressed with this year's QB crop.Yet he beat Bradford twice head to head and got his team to the national title game this year and damn close last year. BnG not trying to argue all your opinions but McCoy is a flat-out winner. From a pro standpoint, I do worry about his size and arm strength but he was a pleasure to watch in college.

Nice to know you're so supportive of Clausen and McCoy lol. :D

[akhhorus]

Yet he beat Bradford twice head to head and got his team to the national title game this year and damn close last year. BnG not trying to argue all your opinions but McCoy is a flat-out winner. From a pro standpoint, I do worry about his size and arm strength but he was a pleasure to watch in college.


To be fair, bradford only played 1 quarter of one of those games. And Bradford got his team to the title game in his first year as a starter.

[The Skinsinator]

To be fair, bradford only played 1 quarter of one of those games. And Bradford got his team to the title game in his first year as a starter.That is correct. Bradford took his team to the title game in year 2 of his 3 year campaign at OU although McCoy beat him head to head that year. The Big XII was awesome to watch in 2008. I would be more pro-Bradford but three things I do worry about: system he came from (no huddle, shotgun), durability, and overall arm strength. His intelligence, accuracy, and reading a defense are outstanding. I really doubt he falls to us. If Shanny wants him, he'll need to trade up and I think that's too risky.

[akhhorus]

That is correct. Bradford took his team to the title game in year 2 of his 3 year campaign at OU although McCoy beat him head to head that year.

Yeah, Bradford just got Oklahoma to the Fiesta Bowl in year 1 lol. And he beat Texas that year.

[BurgundyNGold]

Yet he beat Bradford twice head to head and got his team to the national title game this year and damn close last year. BnG not trying to argue all your opinions but McCoy is a flat-out winner. From a pro standpoint, I do worry about his size and arm strength but he was a pleasure to watch in Clausen.

Nice to know you're so supportive of Clausen and McCoy lol. :D
Like I said, I'm not particularly supportive of any of these QBs. Bradford seems to be the consensus pick up here and, having watched both he and Claussen (sic) play, I prefer to see Bradford in Shanny's offense. But don't get me wrong, I won't shed a tear if he's selected and gone before we pick.

Whether McCoy's team beat Bradford's team or not is truly irrelevant. In the 2009 game, Bradford got knocked out early, so that's hardly much to judge him on. McCoy managed to muster a 21/39 127 yard (really???) 1 TD/1 INT performance. Hardly something to write home about, as those numbers are more "caretaker" numbers than "winner" numbers.

In the 2008 game, McCoy went 28/35 for 277 yards an 1 TD. Again, another caretaker game, especially when compared to Bradford's 28/39, 387 yard 5 TD and 2 INT performance. While McCoy's team might have won that game, Bradford clearly won the matchup.

In the 2007 matchup, they played about even, with McCoy going 19/26 for 324 yards and 2 TD, while Bradford went 21/32 for 244 yards and 3 touchdowns in a game that Oklahoma won.

It's hard for me to label McCoy a "winner" when he hasn't really won anything. He was in the National Title game for about 12 seconds and then didn't come back in. The reason he isn't ranked with Bradford and Claussen (sic) is because he gets Shuler eyed out on the field when he sees defenses with which he'd not familiar.

[tuckahoeskin]

The thought of drafting McCoy makes me want to vomit almost as much as Claussen (sic). Honestly, aside from Bradford (who still has question marks but is the best of the bunch), I'm not really impressed with this year's QB crop.

I don't disagree with you. If we were to draft a QB, I would want it to be Bradford. I really think he can do well. As with all QB's though, it has to be the right team. With our current coaching staff, I don't think he'd be wasted.

As far as McCoy, something about him makes me believe he could find some success. I don't think he should be a first rounder, by any stretch. As a lower pick, with lower expectations, he could hang around and eventually produce for some team. I realize I've loaded that assessment with enough caveats to cover all bases. Feel free to throw a shoe. :)

[BurgundyNGold]

I don't disagree with you. If we were to draft a QB, I would want it to be Bradford. I really think he can do well. As with all QB's though, it has to be the right team. With our current coaching staff, I don't think he'd be wasted.

As far as McCoy, something about him makes me believe he could find some success. I don't think he should be a first rounder, by any stretch. As a lower pick, with lower expectations, he could hang around and eventually produce for some team. I realize I've loaded that assessment with enough caveats to cover all bases. Feel free to throw a shoe. :)
If we traded down in the first and drafted McCoy, I would be more pleased than if we drafted Claussen (sic) at 4, that's for sure. But I would be downright accepting if we drafted the top LT at 4 and picked up McCoy in the 2nd. At least there, he'd be better value.

[tuckahoeskin]

McCoy managed to muster a 21/39 127 yard (really???) 1 TD/1 INT performance.

My five year old son did that in flag football last season -- without the INT! :inkston:

[tuckahoeskin]

If we traded down in the first and drafted McCoy, I would be more pleased than if we drafted Claussen (sic) at 4, that's for sure. But I would be downright accepting if we drafted the top LT at 4 and picked up McCoy in the 2nd. At least there, he'd be better value.

He really should be available in the 2nd. The question is: does he slide further?

[BurgundyNGold]

My five year old son did that in flag football last season -- without the INT! :inkston:
Yeah, I just don't see where McCoy beat Bradford "head to head" twice. By my count, we have 2 games in which they both played the whole game. Each team won 1 of those games. Stats-wise, Bradford won 1 and the other was a draw.

[tuckahoeskin]

Yeah, I just don't see where McCoy beat Bradford "head to head" twice. By my count, we have 2 games in which they both played the whole game. Each team won 1 of those games. Stats-wise, Bradford won 1 and the other was a draw.

The funny thing about that stat line is that it would be hard to limit that many catches to that few yards even if you tried. 21 catches for 127 yards? Realistically, that's pretty hard to do. At some point, one of the receivers would have to break one, you think?

[BurgundyNGold]

The funny thing about that stat line is that it would be hard to limit that many catches to that few yards even if you tried. 21 catches for 127 yards? Realistically, that's pretty hard to do. At some point, one of the receivers would have to break one, you think?
Well, being a Redskin fan, I'm used to seeing an offense be all that it can't be lol.

[tuckahoeskin]

Well, being a Redskin fan, I'm used to seeing an offense be all that it can't be lol.

Have any of these guys been put to the "slip-n-slide" test?

[akhhorus]

He really should be available in the 2nd. The question is: does he slide further?

McCoy should be available in the 4th unless a gm is drinking during the 2nd round.

[Moe]

Obviously on price of business. Hasselback is a team guy, Claussen is a hole. Did he win a SB with Hasselback? He did with Favre. Think he hasn't contemplated the differences?

He got to a Super Bowl and, some questionable officiating aside, came awfully close to winning with Hasselbeck. In all honesty, I serisouly doubt that he sits around and thinks what might have happened strictly as it pertains the difference between the two QB's. Both were tremendously successful, but the surrounding talent and respective circumstances where quite a bit different. I mean, he lost a SB with Favre as well, where does that fit into this logic?

All I'm saying is, he's not giving multiple picks up to move up unless its for the complete package, and that isn't Bradford or Claussen. Bradford could succeed, but Holmgren is not giving up the picks and money to roll the dice. He just isn't. And he's right.

From the horse's mouth- http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/15/big-show-might-not-be-done-acquiring-quarterbacks/

"Speaking at a press conference on Monday, Holmgren said he'll consider draft a quarterback with the seventh overall selection, and that he'll consider trading up to get one, per Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Holmgren also said that he likes Oklahoma Sam Bradford "a lot."


I think Holmgren is going BPA all the way, regardless of position throughout the entire draft. He knows the Browns are a few years from being competitive. I don't see Claussen as franchise caliber players, perennial All-Pro. As another example, Okung is no Joe Thomas. I think Eric Berry could be a perennial All-Pro. I think a pick like that is more realistic for Holmgren. He'll play it safe, make sure he infuses lots of talent, and worry about rounding out roster year later. Watson, the RB he traded for, Joe Thomas--they have some talent, most of it pretty young. I think later rounds Holmgrens ONLY concern will be: can this guy make the roster, again BPA.

I don't really disagree and if I'm Holmgren, I use these draft picks to flush out all manner of positions on that team. But, I'm not Holmgren.

To me, his QB moves, two guys that could both start in his mind, means that he doesn't see either top QB as realistic. No way Bradford slides that far, no way he's trading, and later QB picks will have to develop.

I think he got two QB's that fill a void and buy some time. Seneca Wallace is a known commodity, but can't really play. Delhomme has tons of experience, can absorb some hits and down the road be a decent backup, but the QB cupboard is still prett bare and I have little doubt that someone as QB-centric as Holmgren isn't completely aware of this. Maybe that'll be good enough as they rebuild...or maybe he uses these picks to roll the dice on a top QB and make a statement. Stranger things have happened.

Also, remember, in regards to Claussen, Holmgren just traded another supposed Notre Dame golden boy who was overhyped and busted, and Brady Quinn and Claussen are somewhat similar creatures in some ways in terms of questionable mechanics, d$ckhead attitudes, etc. It is ridiculous to suggest that they would trade Quinn, and then trade multiple picks to draft another very similar QB. Like Quinn, Claussen will have accuracy issues at the next level.

Nobody who has a brain would use the similarity of the college helmet worn to accurately guage two different players. If Quinn or Clausen when to a different school, nobody would ever compare them and it's short-sighted and overly simplistic to do so. The only thing they really share is a comparable level of exposure and a head coach who flamed out. IMO, Quinn was a really good athlete who's game worked in college but didn't translate, whereas Clausen played in inferior teams but he has more fundamental QB ability. Other than getting alumnus donation requests from the same university, they aren't all that similar as players.

Holmgren has 2 QBs he believes can compete to start, and will probably draft a developmental. He didn't pay Delhomme $7 mil to ride the pine. He has freed himself up to draft BPA everywhere, without concern for position.

I agree, but that doesn't remove the need for a QB. Maybe it's next year, or maybe not, I'm just not all that certain either way especially in light of what Holmgren himself has said.

[The Skinsinator]

It's hard for me to label McCoy a "winner" when he hasn't really won anything.And Bradford has? Bradford LOST the national title game and to McCoy twice head to head. McCoy went 12-1 in 2008 losing on a last second crazy play from Graham Harrell to Michael Crabtree. He went 12-0 in 2009 before the title game and didn't play but a few snaps in the title game before he missed the entire game. I agree Bradford may be a better overall prospect but McCoy isn't too shabby and was a winner at UT.

[akhhorus]

And Bradford has? Bradford LOST the national title game and to McCoy twice head to head.

Again: one of those times Bradford threw 6 passes and got hurt. If Bradford gets marked for a loss since he started that game, then McCoy gets marked for a loss in a national title game also.

McCoy went 12-1 in 2008 losing on a last second crazy play from Graham Harrell to Michael Crabtree. He went 12-0 in 2009 before the title game and didn't play but a few snaps in the title game before he missed the entire game. I agree Bradford may be a better overall prospect but McCoy isn't too shabby and was a winner at UT.

The difference being that Bradford has NFL level tools and probably won't make it past the #4 pick in the draft and Colt McCoy might be a 4th rounder and doesn't seem to have any NFL level tools as a Qb.

[fent]

And Bradford has? Bradford LOST the national title game and to McCoy twice head to head. McCoy went 12-1 in 2008 losing on a last second crazy play from Graham Harrell to Michael Crabtree. He went 12-0 in 2009 before the title game and didn't play but a few snaps in the title game before he missed the entire game. I agree Bradford may be a better overall prospect but McCoy isn't too shabby and was a winner at UT.

You're outing yourself as a fan of Eskimo Joes with each successive post ;)

McCoy spent the first half of virtually every game this year sucking it up. He did the same against Tech last year and in the 2009 Fiesta bowl managed a paltry 3 points in the first half against Ohio State. The kid's arm made Pennington look like Elway even before the championship game injury, and his elusiveness/speed isn't anything special. He's a career backup barring a deal with the devil.

[fent]

Again: one of those times Bradford threw 6 passes and got hurt. If Bradford gets marked for a loss since he started that game, then McCoy gets marked for a loss in a national title game also.

Bradford also QBed the 2007 OU team that beat McCoy and the Horns 28-21, so in reality, they're 1-1 with a "no score" this year. If we really wanted to, we could claim it as a win for Bradford since the Sooners were up 3-0 when Bradford left the game. Let's also not forget that in that 2009 game that McCoy "won" for Texas he was 21-40 for 138 yards, a 3.4 yard/pass average, threw for 1 TD and 1 interception. Not sure I'd classify that as a winning performance.

[The Skinsinator]

You're outing yourself as a fan of Eskimo Joes with each successive post ;)

McCoy spent the first half of virtually every game this year sucking it up. He did the same against Tech last year and in the 2009 Fiesta bowl managed a paltry 3 points in the first half against Ohio State. The kid's arm made Pennington look like Elway even before the championship game injury, and his elusiveness/speed isn't anything special. He's a career backup barring a deal with the devil.And I conceded that Bradford is a better pro prospect however I was disputing BnG's notion that he wasn't a winner in college. McCoy isn't my first qb choice at all for the Skins but even a casual college football observer will attest to his success at Texas.

[shally]

And I conceded that Bradford is a better pro prospect however I was disputing BnG's notion that he wasn't a winner in college. McCoy isn't my first qb choice at all for the Skins but even a casual college football observer will attest to his success at Texas.

Texas consistently recruits as well as anyone inthe nation.. no coach has done less, with more, over the years than Mack Brown. he is the classic underachiever and one of the poorer game day coaches, IMHO

[Nomad]

He got to a Super Bowl and, some questionable officiating aside, came awfully close to winning with Hasselbeck. In all honesty, I serisouly doubt that he sits around and thinks what might have happened strictly as it pertains the difference between the two QB's. Both were tremendously successful, but the surrounding talent and respective circumstances where quite a bit different. I mean, he lost a SB with Favre as well, where does that fit into this logic?

As stated, Favre had much stronger arm and better overall athleticism. In a stronger QB draft class, you could get a guy like Claussen in the 2nd or 3rd round. I think it fits in a most obvious way: evaluating QBs. If you think he doesn't mentally compare QBs he scouts to Favre and Hasselbeck. . .

From the horse's mouth- http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/15/big-show-might-not-be-done-acquiring-quarterbacks/

"Speaking at a press conference on Monday, Holmgren said he'll consider draft a quarterback with the seventh overall selection, and that he'll consider trading up to get one, per Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Holmgren also said that he likes Oklahoma Sam Bradford "a lot."

Yeah, cause all GMs tell the media the truth leading up to the draft, making their real plans public. No one postures interest in prospects to increase their potential of trading down or hide their true intentions. . .


I don't really disagree and if I'm Holmgren, I use these draft picks to flush out all manner of positions on that team. But, I'm not Holmgren.



I think he got two QB's that fill a void and buy some time. Seneca Wallace is a known commodity, but can't really play. Delhomme has tons of experience, can absorb some hits and down the road be a decent backup, but the QB cupboard is still prett bare and I have little doubt that someone as QB-centric as Holmgren isn't completely aware of this. Maybe that'll be good enough as they rebuild...or maybe he uses these picks to roll the dice on a top QB and make a statement. Stranger things have happened.

He is paying Delhomme $7 million this year. That is not back-up QB money. Period. Yes, he needs a long term starter--but as stated, the price to move up for players with so many question marks is prohibitive. The premise of this thread is Holmgren trading up for Claussen or Bradford--probably Claussen. No way.

Nobody who has a brain would use the similarity of the college helmet worn to accurately guage two different players. If Quinn or Clausen when to a different school, nobody would ever compare them and it's short-sighted and overly simplistic to do so. The only thing they really share is a comparable level of exposure and a head coach who flamed out. IMO, Quinn was a really good athlete who's game worked in college but didn't translate, whereas Clausen played in inferior teams but he has more fundamental QB ability. Other than getting alumnus donation requests from the same university, they aren't all that similar as players.

No, it isn't, and I'm not going by the helmet. Clausen is a late 1st round or early 2nd round prospect if the QB class isn't so thin. Claussen does not have an abundance of natural athleticism, but rather has decent athleticism and has received professional tutorinng/mentoring his entire life. He has maxxed out his ability and potential, and won't get much better as a pro. His athletic upside is limited, and it is not like he has a humble, endearing personality. Quinn was very much the cocky a-hole when he came into the league--and this rubbed many the wrong way. Quinn and Claussen are very similar in their accuracy issues and inconsistent mechanics. Quinn's accuracy problems were a big issue last few years. Look a Claussen's deep balls--many are floaters rather than ropes--in the NFL this will give safeties/CBs time to close gap and his arm isn't strong enough to throw deep balls with exceptional power, his deep balls aren't consistently tight spirals and very erratic accuracy wise. That is against slower college corners. You don't trade the house to move up for such a player--the premise of this thread.



I agree, but that doesn't remove the need for a QB. Maybe it's next year, or maybe not, I'm just not all that certain either way especially in light of what Holmgren himself has said.

Once again, if you believe any GM tells the truth publicly leading up to the draft, dream on. Holmgren needs a QB. He isn't trading the house to move up for Claussen or Bradford. If one were going to trade the house, do it next year for a safer prospect like Jake Locker.

[tuckahoeskin]

Texas consistently recruits as well as anyone inthe nation.. no coach has done less, with more, over the years than Mack Brown. he is the classic underachiever and one of the poorer game day coaches, IMHO

Does anybody remember the movie "Bachelor Party?" Think of Mack Brown as the Tom Hanks character and Shally as his soon-to-be Father-in-Law chastising him beside the pool. :) "And you're obnoxious. You're a slob. Your breathe stinks. You're not a game day coach..."

[shally]

Does anybody remember the movie "Bachelor Party?" Think of Mack Brown as the Tom Hanks character and Shally as his soon-to-be Father-in-Law chastising him beside the pool. :) "And you're obnoxious. You're a slob. Your breathe stinks. You're not a game day coach..."

i have followed Mack since he was head coach of Tulane, on his way to bigger and better things with each move.. he always has been a gifted recruiter.. but as a game coach ?? he truly is limited.. if he cant win with overwhelming talent, he simply cannot win

[BurgundyNGold]

And Bradford has? Bradford LOST the national title game and to McCoy twice head to head. McCoy went 12-1 in 2008 losing on a last second crazy play from Graham Harrell to Michael Crabtree. He went 12-0 in 2009 before the title game and didn't play but a few snaps in the title game before he missed the entire game. I agree Bradford may be a better overall prospect but McCoy isn't too shabby and was a winner at UT.
You keep saying this but it's just not true. They split the 2007 and 2008 games, 1 each. The 2009 game saw Bradford attempt all of 6 passes before getting hurt. How can that be a head to head win for McCoy? If you're going to give McCoy a pass for taking a seat in the National Title game (of all games) then you have to apply the same standard to Bradford in the 2009 Texas-OU game.

[BurgundyNGold]

And I conceded that Bradford is a better pro prospect however I was disputing BnG's notion that he wasn't a winner in college. McCoy isn't my first qb choice at all for the Skins but even a casual college football observer will attest to his success at Texas.
I'm not disputing it, I just don't have any proof to say that he's a "winner", as you assert as a primary reason for wanting him on our team. While he compiled a pretty impressive record with arguably one of the top 5 talent loaded teams in college football (maybe top 3), he didn't get the National Title. I just don't see where you can suggest that he's that much of a "winner" than any number of other QBs.

[The Skinsinator]

I'm not disputing it, I just don't have any proof to say that he's a "winner", as you assert as a primary reason for wanting him on our team. While he compiled a pretty impressive record with arguably one of the top 5 talent loaded teams in college football (maybe top 3), he didn't get the National Title. I just don't see where you can suggest that he's that much of a "winner" than any number of other QBs.Other than Tebow, there hasn't been a more successful COLLEGE qb in the last few years consistently. You're correct he never won the title. He never had the chance since he couldn't play in it. By your standards of a "winner" (which I agree with somewhat), one must win a title to do so. McCoy did all but that. Bradford did also but McCoy never got hurt. I don't necessarily want the Skins to take him but I'm just saying give the kid his due at the college level.

I would be surprised if either McCoy or Clausen (possibly both) at least one of them isn't reasonably successful in the nfl. I also wouldn't be surprised if Bradford is hurt in one of his first few starts.

Our fo can only make decisions based off recent performance. This is a tricky position they are in considering their prospects they're dealing with and Washington hasn't had a franchise qb in seemingly forever.

If Shanny decides to go qb in this draft (which I believe he will), no other decision is more important to his and the Skins' success over the next 5 years. It's imperative he delivers a slam dunk.

[Hr fan]

Once again, if you believe any GM tells the truth publicly leading up to the draft, dream on. Holmgren needs a QB. He isn't trading the house to move up for Claussen or Bradford. If one were going to trade the house, do it next year for a safer prospect like Jake Locker.

+1. Though if Bradford/Clausen is available and we don't want him maybe can get Buf and Sea into a bidding war. Could shake out as Bradford/Okung/McCoy (DT) - do we take Suh or do we trade down?

[Moe]

Once again, if you believe any GM tells the truth publicly leading up to the draft, dream on. Holmgren needs a QB. He isn't trading the house to move up for Claussen or Bradford. If one were going to trade the house, do it next year for a safer prospect like Jake Locker.

Of course there's posturing and politicking from GM's, but to completely remove it from the realm of possibility considering their reality at the position seems a little too absolute for me. It also seems like a monstrous gamble to assume that they can get Locker next year, if he's even an option.

[firehawk157]

+1. Though if Bradford/Clausen is available and we don't want him maybe can get Buf and Sea into a bidding war. Could shake out as Bradford/Okung/McCoy (DT) - do we take Suh or do we trade down?

I think Buluga fits better anyway. We really are far too stocked (assuming eat u recovers) at the DL and ANOTHER DL prospect would just languish at the bottom of the depth chart and be labelled a bust at the end of 3 years. I doubt we can trade down so grab Buluga.