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akhhorus
03-03-2011, 04:17 PM
http://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/43433974705553408

5 year deal.

RicFlairOne
03-03-2011, 04:19 PM
awesome !

a free agent signing that we can all be happy about -- much needed !!

Jvon91
03-03-2011, 04:21 PM
GREAT SINGING! (depending on the contract) but we now have a legitimate FS for whenever the season starts..

dj_stouty
03-03-2011, 04:26 PM
YES!

flave1969
03-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Great signing.

Fills a huge need. Please let there be a new CBA and a 2011 season.

akhhorus
03-03-2011, 04:27 PM
This was our biggest need on defense--more than a NT or DE. Good to see it punched out with a legitimate player who's in the peak of his career.

EDIT: 26 million according to PFT Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/03/redskins-atogwe-do-five-year-26-million-deal)

dj_stouty
03-03-2011, 04:31 PM
This was our biggest need on defense--more than a NT or DE. Good to see it punched out with a legitimate player who's in the peak of his career.


?.........Landry..............Atogwe...........Hal l



We need to address Carlos one way or another, but I like what I see so far.

BigCountry
03-03-2011, 04:41 PM
This was our biggest need on defense--more than a NT or DE. Good to see it punched out with a legitimate player who's in the peak of his career.

EDIT: 26 million according to PFT Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/03/redskins-atogwe-do-five-year-26-million-deal)

If I was a record id be in pieces but when yu run a 34 the front 7 supercedes anything else. That being saidthis is a coup for the Skins.

SkinsKY
03-03-2011, 04:42 PM
woot.

This is a great signing. I'll take it.

akhhorus
03-03-2011, 04:44 PM
If I was a record id be in pieces but when yu run a 34 the front 7 supercedes anything else. That being saidthis is a coup for the Skins.

I completely agree, but we have some talent in the front 7. We had Kareem "the Clumsy Ninja" Moore and Reed "The Witness" Doughty at FS.

firehawk157
03-03-2011, 04:48 PM
This was our biggest need on defense--more than a NT or DE. Good to see it punched out with a legitimate player who's in the peak of his career.

EDIT: 26 million according to PFT Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/03/redskins-atogwe-do-five-year-26-million-deal)

Very nice. It's a smart contract. I wonder if we put the entire signing bonus as a roster bonus for the 2010 league year if we can pull a fast one.

Emmanouel8
03-03-2011, 04:52 PM
Wow big news and great signing.

When was the last time we had 2 competent safeties at the same time. The defense last year totally unraveled when Landry went down. Hopefully they stay healthy and we can find a legit NT.

shally
03-03-2011, 04:56 PM
http://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/43433974705553408

5 year deal.

YYYYYYYEEEEEEEESSSSSSS !!!

kings of the offseason lol

cal_junior
03-03-2011, 05:14 PM
Well-done, Bruceahan.

A tweet from Matt Bowen (http://twitter.com/#!/MattBowen41/status/43447278828142592):

"Expect (Otogwe's) game to take another step forward with 'Skins safety coach Steve Jackson. Best in NFL at teaching technique."

Redskin-4-life
03-03-2011, 05:21 PM
Finally some good news. Major hole filled.

Skins7ny
03-03-2011, 05:31 PM
This was our biggest need on defense--more than a NT or DE. Good to see it punched out with a legitimate player who's in the peak of his career.

EDIT: 26 million according to PFT Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/03/redskins-atogwe-do-five-year-26-million-deal)+1. This was a huge need and has been since we lost ST. This will allow Landry to remain comfortably in his SS role, and Atogwe is good is very good in coverage, like a modern Free Safety needs to be. Going into this season with Moore starting would have been depressing, and we could not afford to spend a high draft pick at the position (and there do not appear to be a lot of FS prospects worthy of picks in the first two rounds). And the contract, while nice from Atogwe's viewpoint, is by no means outrageous or higher than the the market for a player of his accomplishment and relative youth.

Atogwe is getting married to Mike Singletary's daughter. So I knew he would not end up in Minnesota, where Singletary is coaching now.
"She said you refused to take the garbage out last night [forearm chuck]."

Well-done, Bruceahan.

A tweet from Matt Bowen (http://twitter.com/#!/MattBowen41/status/43447278828142592):

"Expect (Otogwe's) game to take another step forward with 'Skins safety coach Steve Jackson. Best in NFL at teaching technique."
The year that Atogwe had 8 interceptions his defensive coordinator was....Jim Haslett. I would settle for 1/2 that out of the position (but would love to have the 8).

WinnpegSkinsFan
03-03-2011, 05:32 PM
This was our biggest need on defense--more than a NT or DE. Good to see it punched out with a legitimate player who's in the peak of his career.

EDIT: 26 million according to PFT Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/03/redskins-atogwe-do-five-year-26-million-deal)

Great signing at a reasonable price. Fills a huge need, plus he's a stand up guy to boot. Kudos, FO!!!

Monk4HOF
03-03-2011, 05:33 PM
Excellent news. Fills a huge need with a quality player who is young and doesn't cause distractions. Can't complain about that...

culpeper
03-03-2011, 05:40 PM
BIGTIME....maybe one of the more significant/best all around FA signings in the last 10 years (Fletcher being the only competition there I can think of off hand). Granted he hasnt played yet...

bigcmr
03-03-2011, 05:41 PM
A big hole filled. Good singing

silverspring
03-03-2011, 05:42 PM
Well at least that fills one big hole for a couple years anyways. He isn't exactly young going into the season at 30 years old, but he has been a solid starter for years and pretty injury free other than that shoulder. It seems like a reasonable deal even if we pay the whole thing. Seems like a smart move, I am having trouble believing it.

So can someone explain why st. louis released him? Was it just money?

tribeinca
03-03-2011, 05:48 PM
:) Nice.

WinnpegSkinsFan
03-03-2011, 05:51 PM
Well at least that fills one big hole for a couple years anyways. He isn't exactly young going into the season at 30 years old, but he has been a solid starter for years and pretty injury free other than that shoulder. It seems like a reasonable deal even if we pay the whole thing. Seems like a smart move, I am having trouble believing it.

So can someone explain why st. louis released him? Was it just money?
Was due an $8M bonus just after being released.

shally
03-03-2011, 05:54 PM
Well-done, Bruceahan.

A tweet from Matt Bowen (http://twitter.com/#!/MattBowen41/status/43447278828142592):

"Expect (Otogwe's) game to take another step forward with 'Skins safety coach Steve Jackson. Best in NFL at teaching technique."

outstanding..too bad even jackson hasnt been able to coach up Rogers' hands

brettsky991
03-03-2011, 05:54 PM
Well at least that fills one big hole for a couple years anyways. He isn't exactly young going into the season at 30 years old, but he has been a solid starter for years and pretty injury free other than that shoulder. It seems like a reasonable deal even if we pay the whole thing. Seems like a smart move, I am having trouble believing it.

So can someone explain why st. louis released him? Was it just money?

Here is the St. Louis side of the story-

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football/professional/rams-report/article_31b32aa2-45e5-11e0-a69f-00127992bc8b.html

NCskinsfanatic
03-03-2011, 05:58 PM
This was our biggest need on defense--more than a NT or DE. Good to see it punched out with a legitimate player who's in the peak of his career.

EDIT: 26 million according to PFT Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/03/redskins-atogwe-do-five-year-26-million-deal)

Very reasonable deal and very much needed, the guy is a ball hawk. But imo we need a NT to pair with Bryant just as much as we needed Atogwe.

Well-done, Bruceahan.

A tweet from Matt Bowen (http://twitter.com/#!/MattBowen41/status/43447278828142592):

"Expect (Otogwe's) game to take another step forward with 'Skins safety coach Steve Jackson. Best in NFL at teaching technique."

Now that's what I like to hear...Atogwe and Landry should be formidable.

shally
03-03-2011, 05:59 PM
Well at least that fills one big hole for a couple years anyways. He isn't exactly young going into the season at 30 years old, but he has been a solid starter for years and pretty injury free other than that shoulder. It seems like a reasonable deal even if we pay the whole thing. Seems like a smart move, I am having trouble believing it.

So can someone explain why st. louis released him? Was it just money?

a lot of safeties are very productive after their 30th birthday.. Lott, Harrison, Atwater, Lynch, Dawkins, Woodson and more recently Sharper, Reed. their knowledge of the game and reading QB's becomes ever more important

Was due an $8M bonus just after being released.

exactly.. but, unlike the quick signing of Hawk by Green Bay, i think this was also about how highly they valued Atogwe, which might be the reason we ultimately got him.. that, and working with Haslett and Jackson..

DaveKShape
03-03-2011, 06:03 PM
excellent. our safety positions just went from "oh no" to "oh yeah". we instantaneously make safety one of our stronger positions. great move.

Goskins11
03-03-2011, 06:07 PM
very exciting! Well, now we have a great FS and SS. I like the thought of him and landry playing together. Great signing!

Patrick
03-03-2011, 06:43 PM
It's a start ........... now they only need about 10 other quality starters .........

HanburgerBum
03-03-2011, 06:48 PM
I guess I am the only poster so far who isn't that excited by this signing. Oh, I have no doubt Atogwe will be a significant upgrade at FS. But, he will be 30 before the next season starts. Is that young enough to be part of the rebuilding process that is obviously needed. I have serious doubts.

If I recollect correctly, there was a lot of excitement around these parts when the Skins got Wilkerson, Stubblefield, Lloyd, Archuletta, McNabb to name just a few. What has that gotten us?

The news is that the total deal is 5 years for 26 million. But, what are the particulars? How much guaranteed money? If all 26 million are eventually paid, that isn't exactly cheap for a safety. If it is not all paid out, that would mean Atogwe would be leaving before the 5 years are up. How is that consistent with rebuilding?

To me, Atogwe would have been a great signing if the Skins are one or two solid players away from contending. Does anyone in this chatroom really think they are at that stage?

silverspring
03-03-2011, 06:49 PM
Was due an $8M bonus just after being released.

Here is the St. Louis side of the story-

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football/professional/rams-report/article_31b32aa2-45e5-11e0-a69f-00127992bc8b.html

So I guess they just didn't want to pay. Fair enough.

a lot of safeties are very productive after their 30th birthday.. Lott, Harrison, Atwater, Lynch, Dawkins, Woodson and more recently Sharper, Reed. their knowledge of the game and reading QB's becomes ever more important

True enough Shally. I guess that is what leads to the common talk of moving old CBs to safety. Hopefully he can continue his healthy streak and be a London Fletcher type acquisition.

GibbsFan
03-03-2011, 06:50 PM
It's a start ........... now they only need about 10 other quality starters .........

ditto

akhhorus
03-03-2011, 06:54 PM
I guess I am the only poster so far who isn't that excited by this signing. Oh, I have no doubt Atogwe will be a significant upgrade at FS. But, he will be 30 before the next season starts. Is that young enough to be part of the rebuilding process that is obviously needed. I have serious doubts.

If I recollect correctly, there was a lot of excitement around these parts when the Skins got Wilkerson, Stubblefield, Lloyd, Archuletta, McNabb to name just a few. What has that gotten us?

The news is that the total deal is 5 years for 26 million. But, what are the particulars? How much guaranteed money? If all 26 million are eventually paid, that isn't exactly cheap for a safety. If it is not all paid out, that would mean Atogwe would be leaving before the 5 years are up. How is that consistent with rebuilding?

To me, Atogwe would have been a great signing if the Skins are one or two solid players away from contending. Does anyone in this chatroom really think they are at that stage?

http://unlimitedlivesblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/picard-facepalm.jpg

So, lets never sign anyone ever again since we had some free agent busts. Since we drafted Heath Shuler, Andre Johnson, Carlos Rogers and Patrick Ramsey and Michael Westbrook, we should never draft another 1st round pick again!

The Skins got a pretty established quality safety at below the market price(26 million over 5 years is very cheap, but shocker you're bitching about it). HB, its becoming very hard to take you and your opinions seriously at all since it seems like you just cut and paste the same thing to every move. And when they make a good move at a cheap price(relative or not), you mysteriously never discuss it or ever mention it(even if you complained about it at the time.

justinskins
03-03-2011, 07:18 PM
Good signing. It's not like having Sean Taylor back :(, but it's much better than nothing.

44 goes 50 gut
03-03-2011, 07:20 PM
outstanding..too bad even jackson hasnt been able to coach up Rogers' hands

Best at teaching technique, not surgical grafting of hands onto dead stumps :)

Not sure who they're going to sign to replace CR but Nnaammddii would go a long way to making the secondary "on paper" one of the best in the NFL...

Of course we all always get excited about how much better the team must be after signings like this...

Anyone remember the last Rams safety we signed?

tuckahoeskin
03-03-2011, 07:22 PM
Anyone remember the last Rams safety we signed?

That guy's a stud!.......at American Family Fitness.

SkinsfaninNJ
03-03-2011, 07:25 PM
What a great surprise tonight. This is a good start. I guess they couldn't rob of us of all the signings the team would have had after tonight.

HanburgerBum
03-03-2011, 07:27 PM
http://unlimitedlivesblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/picard-facepalm.jpg

So, lets never sign anyone ever again since we had some free agent busts. Since we drafted Heath Shuler, Andre Johnson, Carlos Rogers and Patrick Ramsey and Michael Westbrook, we should never draft another 1st round pick again!

The Skins got a pretty established quality safety at below the market price(26 million over 5 years is very cheap, but shocker you're bitching about it). HB, its becoming very hard to take you and your opinions seriously at all since it seems like you just cut and paste the same thing to every move. And when they make a good move at a cheap price(relative or not), you mysteriously never discuss it or ever mention it(even if you complained about it at the time.


The Skins obviously had drafting failures too--that is undoubtedly in significant measure responsible for the current sorry-ass state of the franchise. Of course that doesn't mean the team should trade away their draft choices and never draft again. It just means Wash needs to hire a personnel man who can draft well.

It would be nice if there are a lot of ways to rebuild other than via the draft. But, teams don't give up good young talent in trades or waivers. So, when the team is in as bad a situation as the Skins, there is very little it can do to rebuild other than the draft.

I am not against signing older FAs, but the time for that is after the team has made significant progress thru the draft--it should not be the tool to rebuild with.

You say 26 mil, 5 years for an established safety is cheap. You may be right. But, is that going to get the Skins to where it needs to be? Atogwe may push the team from 6 wins to 7 or 8 for the next couple of seasons. What good is that? After that, Atogwe may be too old to be effective. He would then be just another FA who perpetuated the mediocrity that has been the Redskins identity for over a decade.

To me, there are no shortcuts to rebuilding. Atogwe is another attempt at a shortcut.

akhhorus
03-03-2011, 07:33 PM
The Skins obviously had drafting failures too--that is undoubtedly in significant measure responsible for the current sorry-ass state of the franchise. Of course that doesn't mean the team should trade away their draft choices and never draft again. It just means Wash needs to hire a personnel man who can draft well.

If they can get a quality personnel man, you should support-that is if you want to be consistent with your philosophy-trusting him to make free agent decisions.

It would be nice if there are a lot of ways to rebuild other than via the draft. But, teams don't give up good young talent in trades or waivers. So, when the team is in as bad a situation as the Skins, there is very little it can do to rebuild other than the draft.

I am not against signing older FAs, but the time for that is after the team has made significant progress thru the draft--it should not be the tool to rebuild with.

http://www.blindfiveyearold.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/underpants-gnomes.png

You say 26 mil, 5 years for an established safety is cheap. You may be right. But, is that going to get the Skins to where it needs to be? Atogwe may push the team from 6 wins to 7 or 8 for the next couple of seasons. What good is that? After that, Atogwe may be too old to be effective. He would then be just another FA who perpetuated the mediocrity that has been the Redskins identity for over a decade.

So, you would rather the Skins pass on an obvious improvement for what? Drafting a player and hoping he improves the team in the long term? If the team only had a few holes, thats a sound strategy, when they need 6 upgrades just on the defense, your strategy is pretty silly even if the Skins had 6 picks in the first 3 rounds imo

To me, there are no shortcuts to rebuilding. Atogwe is another attempt at a shortcut.

You can believe whatever you want to. Signing an established free safety to a fairly cheap deal(pending the specifics) and thus filling a hole on the team(which means that they can fill another hole with a draft pick) would seem to be a smart football move to anyone.

justinskins
03-03-2011, 07:34 PM
To me, there are no shortcuts to rebuilding. Atogwe is another attempt at a shortcut.

I see what you're saying. But this isn't a prohibitively expensive contract, so if the salary cap comes back we won't take a huge hit. We get a solid player who's put up impressive stats under Haslett before. Hopefully this will be a nice FA addition to complement years of building through the draft...

*EDIT* Although you are right that Atogwe's effective career could end before we have a shot as a contender.

akhhorus
03-03-2011, 07:37 PM
I see what you're saying. But this isn't a prohibitively expensive contract, so if the salary cap comes back we won't take a huge hit. We get a solid player who's put up impressive stats under Haslett before. Hopefully this will be a nice FA addition to complement years of building through the draft...

*EDIT* Although you are right that Atogwe's effective career could end before we have a shot as a contender.

I don't want to put words in HB's mouth, but he doesn't seem to care about how cheap Atogwe's deal is. Even at 5 year, 5 million dollar deal, it would seem that he opposes the move.

hail2skins
03-03-2011, 07:43 PM
You say 26 mil, 5 years for an established safety is cheap. You may be right. But, is that going to get the Skins to where it needs to be? Atogwe may push the team from 6 wins to 7 or 8 for the next couple of seasons. What good is that? After that, Atogwe may be too old to be effective. He would then be just another FA who perpetuated the mediocrity that has been the Redskins identity for over a decade.

To me, there are no shortcuts to rebuilding. Atogwe is another attempt at a shortcut.Shortcut, are you serious? It is one signing and improves the team. Nobody is saying it is the one that will put us over the top but it is a good start. You're trying to pin our improvement on one signing. Unbelievable!!!

hail2skins
03-03-2011, 07:44 PM
I don't want to put words in HB's mouth, but he doesn't seem to care about how cheap Atogwe's deal is. Even at 5 year, 5 million dollar deal, it would seem that he opposes the move.It reads as though he believes we should only draft and never use free agency to sign anyone. I'll stop here.

MONK_in_HOF
03-03-2011, 07:45 PM
I really like this signing. Fills a definite need with a proven player who knows the system and DC. Seems like a reasonable deal going by the previous CBA cap standards. I haven't read any of the posts yet and assume some will point to his age and question whether it was worth giving a 29 year old a 5 yr deal, but his age doesn't concern me as I think FS is a position where older vets (30-35) can still be very productive.

Keino
03-03-2011, 07:58 PM
How can signing a starting caliber FS when we don't currently have one on the roster be viewed as a bad thing or mortgaging the future? Nobody views this as a "Player or two away from contending" type of signing. It is addressing a need in F/A that we could not possibly address through the draft. Hopefully, we can draft a guy to develop behind him in a future draft.

We have 6 Draft picks and about 20 holes on the roster. Given those circumstances, this is a good signing.

hail2skins
03-03-2011, 08:00 PM
How can signing a starting caliber FS when we don't currently have one on the roster be viewed as a bad thing or mortgaging the future? Nobody views this as a "Player or two away from contending" type of signing. It is addressing a need in F/A that we could not possibly address through the draft. Hopefully, we can draft a guy to develop behind him in a future draft.

We have 6 Draft picks and about 20 holes on the roster. Given those circumstances, this is a good signing.Stop, just stop it. You know better. :)

silverspring
03-03-2011, 08:03 PM
The Skins obviously had drafting failures too--that is undoubtedly in significant measure responsible for the current sorry-ass state of the franchise. Of course that doesn't mean the team should trade away their draft choices and never draft again. It just means Wash needs to hire a personnel man who can draft well.

It would be nice if there are a lot of ways to rebuild other than via the draft. But, teams don't give up good young talent in trades or waivers. So, when the team is in as bad a situation as the Skins, there is very little it can do to rebuild other than the draft.

I am not against signing older FAs, but the time for that is after the team has made significant progress thru the draft--it should not be the tool to rebuild with.

You say 26 mil, 5 years for an established safety is cheap. You may be right. But, is that going to get the Skins to where it needs to be? Atogwe may push the team from 6 wins to 7 or 8 for the next couple of seasons. What good is that? After that, Atogwe may be too old to be effective. He would then be just another FA who perpetuated the mediocrity that has been the Redskins identity for over a decade.

To me, there are no shortcuts to rebuilding. Atogwe is another attempt at a shortcut.


I sympathize with your point of view. These days when I hear the skins sign someone, often, my first instinct is to check their age. The skins have trained me to expect the worst over the years when it comes to signing players. In fact his age made me nervous upon first reaction. I am surprised people are being so harsh on you for your reaction , considering we have dealt with over a decade of offseason disaster moves and Allen and Shanahan certainly didn't change that track record last year. So again, I feel your point of view.

But I think in this case you should reconsider your opinion. Here are a couple points that might make a difference in your perspective:

1)This is a free agent not a trade, so no draft picks were lost. So I figure the worst case is that we wasted a bunch of cap space. However, given the current climate of the CBA we might get away with another year of free cap space and the price tag isn't cheap, but it also isn't absurd.
2)As shally pointed out free safety is typically a position where players last longer. Consider a month ago we were talking about bringing Champ Bailey back and moving him to free safety which is noted as a position that lets corners elongate their careers. I doubt that contract would have been much cheaper on a year by year basis, so there is some perspective.
3)One important point that hasn't been brought up is that even though this guy is turning 30 he has only played for 6 seasons. Portis also turns 30 this year but he has 9 seasons under his belt. Also, as far as I know he has only had one considerable injury and it was a shoulder injury which I would say is a lot better than a leg ingury.

Although, one big negative about him is that I can't pronounce his name :)

SkinsfaninNJ
03-03-2011, 08:41 PM
This singing is how you are supposed to use FA so long as we draft effectively. I expect him to play at a high level for three years assuming he is injury free. By then, you draft his replacement. That allows the team to fill the hole over time. Then in years 4 and 5, you can either cut him depending on how the contract is structured or he serves as a role player/mentor to the new draftee.

One of the problems with the Redskins and FA (putting aside the big splash failures) is they keep guys as starters beyond their prime. If Rabach started here for 3 seasons instead of 5, and the Skins drafted his replacement during those 3 seasons, he would have had a successful Skins career. Instead, he was starting at a time when he shouldn't have been because the Redskins never drafted his replacement.

coffdogg
03-03-2011, 08:44 PM
http://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/43433974705553408

5 year deal.

I also think this is a great move. He fits the system(which makes all the difference), plus he is uber smart from what I understand AND no character concerns. Can't help but be optimistic that we make be on the right track.

skinsfan36
03-03-2011, 10:26 PM
great signing and at a good proc. atogwe is a ballhawk who can cover well. landry can now attack all the time and that makes the defense much better. very happy we landed him(should of signed him last june)

joethefan
03-03-2011, 10:51 PM
Well at least the CBA negotiations helped us out....This is IMO a good signing. When I woke up and heard Rich say this on the NFL Network, I imediately said, this improves our defense alot.

Yes he's turning 30, but the thing I like about it is, it doesn't seem like we killed ourselves to get him. The contract isn't high. It's very below market. He probably would have signed for alot more if free agency was really in play.

Big ups to the FO!!!

cactusjack
03-03-2011, 11:29 PM
I like this signing.
Now if Miller or Quinn can be drafted at #10........and a 27/60/60 guy in rnd 2. I know wishful thinking.lol

guess88
03-04-2011, 12:44 AM
Awesome. Still waiting to cut Rabach...

joethefan
03-04-2011, 01:10 AM
Awesome. Still waiting to cut Rabach...

The entire offseason w/b complete when he's gone..LOL j/k...but i want him gone.

Biggie
03-04-2011, 02:13 AM
I don't know if I'll ever be fully able to forgive Atogwe. His Pete Kendall fumble return still haunts my dreams.

That being said, glad to have him on our side. :)

JasonCampbell
03-04-2011, 04:53 AM
Awesome. Still waiting to cut Rabach...

LOL...same here

smave
03-04-2011, 07:00 AM
When I saw this scroll across my ticker while watching the Caps game last night, I jumped in glee and texted all my Skins fans in my phone, but could barely keep my hands still. This is a huge signing and I am very surprised on how cheap we got him for. Huge props to the F/O for this signing.

Monk4HOF
03-04-2011, 07:07 AM
The nicest part about this deal us the way our FO went about it. They didn't feel the need to throw huge dollars at OJ to prevent him from going somewhere else. They made their pitch and let him go see what else was out there. Obviously the pitch was a winner, and they were confident enough to let him walk out the door and then come back. Signs of a fully functional front office, great job by Allen and company.

Thus guy is a playmaker and he is young for a safety. By all accounts he will be a positive influence on the locker room. And the Skins didn't break the bank. Perfect...

Sean T RIP
03-04-2011, 07:38 AM
its a good signing but maybe just maybe one day this team will realize that offenses and defenses are built from the front to the back... excluding haynesworth

CNYSkinFan
03-04-2011, 08:27 AM
As the resident hr pessimist even I am happy at this signing. Finally something I can point to that the Front Office is indeed adddressing glaring holes.

(now watch Haslett convert him to OLB)

CNYSkinFan
03-04-2011, 08:28 AM
outstanding..too bad even jackson hasnt been able to coach up Rogers' hands
can't coach stone

colkurtz
03-04-2011, 09:29 AM
Outstanding FA signing. We took a big hole and filled it in with a premium player. I disagree with the "use draft only picks" philosophy. Just as bad as Snyder's "fill the team with old FA and give away all our draft picks". The best FO do it well with a mixture of both good drafting and good FA picks, with a lean toward the draft side.

The defense is not out of the woods yet, but I can see us drafting a NT or OLB to fill another monster hole.

As for FA the big money should go for the best #1 WR on the market. Also, reasonable signing for a good offensive C/OG. We've got a long way to go but this is a very good start for the off-season - Kings of the Spring! lol

Red Bear
03-04-2011, 09:31 AM
its a good signing but maybe just maybe one day this team will realize that offenses and defenses are built from the front to the back... excluding haynesworth

so you would pass up signing a solid player that fills a true need position just so you can sign DL and LB first? i dont think so...im sure DL and LB will be addressed to an extent this offseason, whats it matter what order its done in? in fact, now that we dont have to draft a free safety, we can use that pick on a DL or LB. If you ask Ron Rivera who coached the 3-4 chargers #1 defense last year, he says the two most important positions in the 3-4 are nose tackle and free safety....

Moe
03-04-2011, 09:38 AM
The Skins obviously had drafting failures too--that is undoubtedly in significant measure responsible for the current sorry-ass state of the franchise. Of course that doesn't mean the team should trade away their draft choices and never draft again. It just means Wash needs to hire a personnel man who can draft well.

It would be nice if there are a lot of ways to rebuild other than via the draft. But, teams don't give up good young talent in trades or waivers. So, when the team is in as bad a situation as the Skins, there is very little it can do to rebuild other than the draft.

I am not against signing older FAs, but the time for that is after the team has made significant progress thru the draft--it should not be the tool to rebuild with.

You say 26 mil, 5 years for an established safety is cheap. You may be right. But, is that going to get the Skins to where it needs to be? Atogwe may push the team from 6 wins to 7 or 8 for the next couple of seasons. What good is that? After that, Atogwe may be too old to be effective. He would then be just another FA who perpetuated the mediocrity that has been the Redskins identity for over a decade.

To me, there are no shortcuts to rebuilding. Atogwe is another attempt at a shortcut.

The primary flaw in your philosophy is that it hinges upon talent evaluators the likes of which do not exist. It also fails to acknowledge that all teams, even those with talent evaluators of the type you covet, make use of Free Agency. When you're ahead of the game, it's easier to restock through the draft and lean more heavily on it (it's also typically more of a need since good teams have higher payrolls). When you are not a good team, you have to fill in through whatever means available. History hasn't been kind to this team, but your mantra seems premature at best, considering there is a new tandem evaluating talent and the teams needs. Levying your repeated criticisms to this team, when the front office structure has changed and therefore has no real historical patterns against which to judge, is ironically similar to what you're complaining about to begin with.

SweetBubbaT
03-04-2011, 10:37 AM
Great signing! Should give the 'Skins 3 - 4 solid years of play.

You improve a football team one player at a time. So, we just got better. Now ... hopefully we can improve 4 or 5 other times (or more) this offseason.

JRudy
03-05-2011, 06:19 AM
Love the signing!


FWIW- Redskins is spelled wrong on the main page. It says

"Reskins sign Atogwe" :P

Sean T RIP
03-05-2011, 09:08 AM
so you would pass up signing a solid player that fills a true need position just so you can sign DL and LB first? i dont think so...im sure DL and LB will be addressed to an extent this offseason, whats it matter what order its done in? in fact, now that we dont have to draft a free safety, we can use that pick on a DL or LB. If you ask Ron Rivera who coached the 3-4 chargers #1 defense last year, he says the two most important positions in the 3-4 are nose tackle and free safety....

Ron riveras no 1 defense that didn't play in the playoffs?

lorimike
03-05-2011, 09:33 AM
I guess it's a good signing. But he will be 30 when training camp starts. We've seen this movie before. Attogwe's best playing days might be behind him. I see he was drafted in the 3rd round in 2005. We probably didn't have a pick in that round that year-probably one the picks we gave up for TJ Ducket or Brunnel or Lloyd or some other reject.

Emmanouel8
03-05-2011, 10:53 AM
Great signing! Should give the 'Skins 3 - 4 solid years of play.

You improve a football team one player at a time. So, we just got better. Now ... hopefully we can improve 4 or 5 other times (or more) this offseason.

Agreed.

I understand Hanburgers argument, actually I'm even on board with it, but you have to have realistic expectations too. I totally believe we need to build a yearly contender, not a one year paper champion.

As a fan I can accept signing players that produce in 4 year blocks. Without knowing the details of the contract, worst case, 5 years $26 million is not a price that will kill us even if he turns out to be a lemon.

HanburgerBum
03-06-2011, 04:06 PM
If they can get a quality personnel man, you should support-that is if you want to be consistent with your philosophy-trusting him to make free agent decisions.



http://www.blindfiveyearold.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/underpants-gnomes.png



So, you would rather the Skins pass on an obvious improvement for what? Drafting a player and hoping he improves the team in the long term? If the team only had a few holes, thats a sound strategy, when they need 6 upgrades just on the defense, your strategy is pretty silly even if the Skins had 6 picks in the first 3 rounds imo



You can believe whatever you want to. Signing an established free safety to a fairly cheap deal(pending the specifics) and thus filling a hole on the team(which means that they can fill another hole with a draft pick) would seem to be a smart football move to anyone.


Whether 5 years for 26 mil is cheap for a safety or not is debatable. But, that really isn't the main thrust of my objections. What I really have a problem with is the continuation of the philosophy that signing older FAs is a legitimate tool to rebuild with.

I know the Skins don't have enough picks this April to address all their needs (incidentally, a big reason for the usual dearth of draft choices is that the team simply won't commit to the draft as THE way to rebuild and constantly throws away draft choices). But, that fact is not good reason to keep going down the same path of adding older players when the team needs major rebuilding.

Yes, I would rather go with an unproven younger player than signing a proven 30-year old when the team is as bad as it is. At least, there is a chance the younger player will be a part of the solution down the road, while the 30-year old will most likely be too old by then.

As for Shanahan/Allen being a good personnel duo, I have serious doubts. Their first year's performance, as shown by the horrible move to trade for McNabb, certainly does not inspire any confidence.

HanburgerBum
03-06-2011, 04:13 PM
I see what you're saying. But this isn't a prohibitively expensive contract, so if the salary cap comes back we won't take a huge hit. We get a solid player who's put up impressive stats under Haslett before. Hopefully this will be a nice FA addition to complement years of building through the draft...

*EDIT* Although you are right that Atogwe's effective career could end before we have a shot as a contender.


I don't know what the salary cap will be like under the new CBA. But, cap space is not really my main objection. I just want the Skins to have a coherent strategy and be playing and developing younger players. Hopefully, 3-4 years down the road, there will be enough of these younger players jelling to make the team a contender.

Adding 30-year olds who will be taking playing time and opportunity away from younger players isn't my idea of rebuilding.

fent
03-06-2011, 04:14 PM
I guess it's a good signing. But he will be 30 when training camp starts. We've seen this movie before. Attogwe's best playing days might be behind him. I see he was drafted in the 3rd round in 2005. We probably didn't have a pick in that round that year-probably one the picks we gave up for TJ Ducket or Brunnel or Lloyd or some other reject.

Actually, we lost that pick in the trade to get the pick that netted Campbell, but Atogwe was gone by that point anyway.

fent
03-06-2011, 04:17 PM
I don't know what the salary cap will be like under the new CBA. But, cap space is not really my main objection. I just want the Skins to have a coherent strategy and be playing and developing younger players. Hopefully, 3-4 years down the road, there will be enough of these younger players jelling to make the team a contender.

Adding 30-year olds who will be taking playing time and opportunity away from younger players isn't my idea of rebuilding.

I can understand your complaint, but with the holes we have on the roster, do you see any realistic opportunity to put a youngster in that position? We've looked at everyone currently on the roster and they've all been a pile of sucktitude. We only have so many picks, and I'm not real keen on blowing a high pick on a safety when we have problems with the offensive line, wr, qb, dl, olb, etc. FS isn't exactly high on the list of places I want to spend a premium pick given the number of holes yet to be filled.

HanburgerBum
03-06-2011, 04:22 PM
Shortcut, are you serious? It is one signing and improves the team. Nobody is saying it is the one that will put us over the top but it is a good start. You're trying to pin our improvement on one signing. Unbelievable!!!


Yes, I do think signing Atogwe is an attempted shortcut. It is an easy thing to do, since he is proven and he will surely provide an instant upgrade.

But, how would this signing get the team to where it needs to be? I doubt anyone here is naive enough to think the Redskins will be a genuine contender within the next two years. So, will Atogwe contribute 3-4 years down the road when he will be 33-34 years old? I have my doubts.

It just seems that recent Redskins history has been defined by adding older "proven" players for short-term fixes. Just exactly what has that gotten us?

akhhorus
03-06-2011, 04:23 PM
Whether 5 years for 26 mil is cheap for a safety or not is debatable. But, that really isn't the main thrust of my objections. What I really have a problem with is the continuation of the philosophy that signing older FAs is a legitimate tool to rebuild with.


29(30 on opening day) is older? So please tell me which young free agents that the skins can get cheap should we be signing? There's a list in my sig.

I know the Skins don't have enough picks this April to address all their needs (incidentally, a big reason for the usual dearth of draft choices is that the team simply won't commit to the draft as THE way to rebuild and constantly throws away draft choices). But, that fact is not good reason to keep going down the same path of adding older players when the team needs major rebuilding.


So we sign a proven vet who'll be 30 for the cost of no draft picks and yet you still complain.

Yes, I would rather go with an unproven younger player than signing a proven 30-year old when the team is as bad as it is. At least, there is a chance the younger player will be a part of the solution down the road, while the 30-year old will most likely be too old by then.

So lets never draft any rookies who are going to require several years to develop? I'm sorry HB, your "philosophy" is pretty empty of any substance imo. By your standards the Skins shouldn't make any moves because there's been failures in the past. You believe too much in the draft pick fairy that with good talent evaluation every team should be able to build almost exclusively through the draft. That's pure fantasy. No team is able to do that.

I really wonder if your "philosophy" is just so you can complain about every move the Skins make--regardless if they actually do something that would agree with it. Based on what you're claimed you believed that the Skins *should* do in the past, you should be at least somewhat supporting of signing Atogwe. But you're not and I can't say I'm surprised at all.



As for Shanahan/Allen being a good personnel duo, I have serious doubts. Their first year's performance, as shown by the horrible move to trade for McNabb, certainly does not inspire any confidence.

To be fair, you were critical last year of..everything, so you never had any confidence. And even if the Skins were to get a GM who follow your "philosophy" you'd complain about it anyways.


Yes, I do think signing Atogwe is an attempted shortcut. It is an easy thing to do, since he is proven and he will surely provide an instant upgrade.

But, how would this signing get the team to where it needs to be? I doubt anyone here is naive enough to think the Redskins will be a genuine contender within the next two years. So, will Atogwe contribute 3-4 years down the road when he will be 33-34 years old? I have my doubts.

It just seems that recent Redskins history has been defined by adding older "proven" players for short-term fixes. Just exactly what has that gotten us?

So again: which young, cheap free agents would you sign to fill the large number of holes on this team since we don't have enough draft picks to do so in the next 1-2 years.

HanburgerBum
03-06-2011, 04:26 PM
How can signing a starting caliber FS when we don't currently have one on the roster be viewed as a bad thing or mortgaging the future? Nobody views this as a "Player or two away from contending" type of signing. It is addressing a need in F/A that we could not possibly address through the draft. Hopefully, we can draft a guy to develop behind him in a future draft.

We have 6 Draft picks and about 20 holes on the roster. Given those circumstances, this is a good signing.


It is not mortgaging the future in the sense that the Skins didn't have to give any compensation to acquire Atogwe. But, the problem is that it is a continuation of the same philosophy of adding older "proven" players for instant fixes that is troubling. Moreover, these older players will be taking playing time and opportunity away from younger players.

lorimike
03-06-2011, 04:27 PM
Actually, we lost that pick in the trade to get the pick that netted Campbell, but Atogwe was gone by that point anyway.

Did we have a 2nd that year? I recognize it's kinda pointless to say if we only had a pick we would have taken a great player. We don't that. The broader point is that if we kept our picks we would find a few Justin Tucks and Attogwe's along the line. Trading our 2nd, 3rds, and 4ths hasn't really work out yet to my knowledge

akhhorus
03-06-2011, 04:29 PM
It is not mortgaging the future in the sense that the Skins didn't have to give any compensation to acquire Atogwe. But, the problem is that it is a continuation of the same philosophy of adding older "proven" players for instant fixes that is troubling. Moreover, these older players will be taking playing time and opportunity away from younger players.

Like whom? Kareem Moore?

HanburgerBum
03-06-2011, 04:42 PM
I sympathize with your point of view. These days when I hear the skins sign someone, often, my first instinct is to check their age. The skins have trained me to expect the worst over the years when it comes to signing players. In fact his age made me nervous upon first reaction. I am surprised people are being so harsh on you for your reaction , considering we have dealt with over a decade of offseason disaster moves and Allen and Shanahan certainly didn't change that track record last year. So again, I feel your point of view.

But I think in this case you should reconsider your opinion. Here are a couple points that might make a difference in your perspective:

1)This is a free agent not a trade, so no draft picks were lost. So I figure the worst case is that we wasted a bunch of cap space. However, given the current climate of the CBA we might get away with another year of free cap space and the price tag isn't cheap, but it also isn't absurd.
2)As shally pointed out free safety is typically a position where players last longer. Consider a month ago we were talking about bringing Champ Bailey back and moving him to free safety which is noted as a position that lets corners elongate their careers. I doubt that contract would have been much cheaper on a year by year basis, so there is some perspective.
3)One important point that hasn't been brought up is that even though this guy is turning 30 he has only played for 6 seasons. Portis also turns 30 this year but he has 9 seasons under his belt. Also, as far as I know he has only had one considerable injury and it was a shoulder injury which I would say is a lot better than a leg ingury.

Although, one big negative about him is that I can't pronounce his name :)



Hey, I can take the harsh criticism. That is what a chatroom is about. It would be a pretty boring world if everyone agreed all the time.

Your points are well-taken. The Skins didn't have to give up any compensation to acquire Atogwe. Yes, some safeties do last a long time. And, Atogwe has had only 6 years of wear and tear.

I have to admit that at first blush signing Atogwe seems like a slam dunk. But, I just can't agree with the continuation of the philosophy that acquiring older, "proven" players is the way to rebuild this franchise. I think we just have to make up our minds to bite the bullet and accept the fact that after years of mismanagement, this franchise is a long ways from being a consistent winner. We are going to have to go thru a major rebuilding process.

To me, that means not acquiring older players--they would just be too old by the time the team gets good and their presence in the meantime would just impede the progress of younger players and lengthen the rebuilding time table.

While we are rebuilding, the team may have to go thru some really, really bad seasons. But, so be it. I think that is the price we have to pay. Doing what we typically do just perpetuates mediocrity with no end in sight.

akhhorus
03-06-2011, 04:45 PM
I have to admit that at first blush signing Atogwe seems like a slam dunk. But, I just can't agree with the continuation of the philosophy that acquiring older, "proven" players is the way to rebuild this franchise. I think we just have to make up our minds to bite the bullet and accept the fact that after years of mismanagement, this franchise is a long ways from being a consistent winner. We are going to have to go thru a major rebuilding process.

So, shouldn't you wait and see what Atogwe allows the defense to do with younger players before condemning this move? Getting Atogwe at FS means that you can go younger at CB(maybe with Barnes) since he's a competent FS(which we haven't had since Taylor passed and the skins decided to play strong safeties at free safety with predictably bad results).

HanburgerBum
03-06-2011, 04:52 PM
The primary flaw in your philosophy is that it hinges upon talent evaluators the likes of which do not exist. It also fails to acknowledge that all teams, even those with talent evaluators of the type you covet, make use of Free Agency. When you're ahead of the game, it's easier to restock through the draft and lean more heavily on it (it's also typically more of a need since good teams have higher payrolls). When you are not a good team, you have to fill in through whatever means available. History hasn't been kind to this team, but your mantra seems premature at best, considering there is a new tandem evaluating talent and the teams needs. Levying your repeated criticisms to this team, when the front office structure has changed and therefore has no real historical patterns against which to judge, is ironically similar to what you're complaining about to begin with.



I have never argued that a good personnel man would be perfect in all his moves, and I have never said the draft is the only tool to acquire players.

What I have argued is that a good personnel man may be the most important person in a NFL franchise nowadays--even more important than the head coach. He is the guy who is more often right than wrong, or at least have a higher batting average than his counterparts.

FAs and trades are of course legitimate tools for acquiring players. But, it is the timing for utilizing those tools that is critical. I think FAs and trades should be used after a team has first built the foundation via the draft. I believe this to be the case because young, quality players are never available via free agency and trades. So, when the team is as bad and as old as the Skins were/are, the draft is the best way to build the foundation.

Skaggsrules
03-06-2011, 05:11 PM
So again: which young, cheap free agents would you sign to fill the large number of holes on this team since we don't have enough draft picks to do so in the next 1-2 years.

There will be hundreds of young, cheap free agents after the draft is over.

HurricaneSkins
03-06-2011, 05:12 PM
I have never argued that a good personnel man would be perfect in all his moves, and I have never said the draft is the only tool to acquire players.

What I have argued is that a good personnel man may be the most important person in a NFL franchise nowadays--even more important than the head coach. He is the guy who is more often right than wrong, or at least have a higher batting average than his counterparts.

FAs and trades are of course legitimate tools for acquiring players. But, it is the timing for utilizing those tools that is critical. I think FAs and trades should be used after a team has first built the foundation via the draft. I believe this to be the case because young, quality players are never available via free agency and trades. So, when the team is as bad and as old as the Skins were/are, the draft is the best way to build the foundation.

We have 6 draft picks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many holes can you fill.. We have more roster spots available than draft picks. We have to sign free agents or we won't have enough players. Why complain about getting one of the best ballhawk safeties in the league for cheap when it was a position we probably couldn't fill in this years draft. If we had 25 picks this year in the top 3 rounds then maybe you would have a point.

akhhorus
03-06-2011, 05:14 PM
There will be hundreds of young, cheap free agents after the draft is over.

What are the odds of finding even a good backup in the UDFA class? 1 in 30? 1 in 60?

Skaggsrules
03-06-2011, 06:36 PM
What are the odds of finding even a good backup in the UDFA class? 1 in 30? 1 in 60?

So, you're saying there's a chance?
YEAH

Was just making a point that the only young, cheap FA are UDFA.

akhhorus
03-06-2011, 07:06 PM
So, you're saying there's a chance?
YEAH

Was just making a point that the only young, cheap FA are UDFA.

I was referring to unrestricted free agents that'll be on the market. HB would seem to want the skins to be able to find young(under 27 years old) free agents who are able to start and that the skins will be able to sign for bargain prices.

Redskinmayhem
03-06-2011, 08:40 PM
Like whom? Kareem Moore?

I've seen enough of KM lol.

colkurtz
03-07-2011, 07:10 AM
It's a matter of percentages. Only a third of the TOP draft picks survive past a few years. As you get further down in the draft the percentages get even lower.
As I've said before the reason for the lower draft is to get cheap players who can play ST. Every ONCE in awhile you get keeper or the Tom Brady's or Sharpe from Denver.

Once you get to the UDFA the odds really go down. These are the guys who have been passed over by every team through 7 drafts. Again, they are even cheaper players, who get a spot by playing ST. If you get an actual starter then you've really broken the odds. That's why the average length of an NFL player is just 3 years. Because most teams dump the bottom with newer, younger and cheaper players.

The Redskins failed strategy has been to load up on too many FA and then to keep them too long. To me it's crazy that we have someone like Phil Daniels at 35 when we should have a guy in his low twenties at the spot. That was another problem with Snyderrato's philosophy of ignoring the lines. So you end up with a team that is too old and tends to fade as the season goes on.

It will take Shannihan/Allen time to get this team younger. But they will have to fix some holes with proven players, high percentage players - just like every other team does. Minimize FA over 30. But this very good pickup will allow us to finally get a 22 year old player to take Daniels job, as the cycle continues.

dogfight6
03-08-2011, 07:50 AM
Wow! Read the first couple pages excitment, go to the last couple :sfight: count me on the great signing team.

Moe
03-08-2011, 09:19 AM
Atogwe gets $12 million guaranteed
O.J. Atogwe's new five-year, $26 million contract with the Redskins includes roughly $12 million guaranteed.For comparison, Antoine Bethea's four-year deal signed last June contained $18 million in the first two years. Eric Berry got $34 million guaranteed as the No. 5 overall pick last April. Brian Dawkins received $7.2 million guaranteed as a 36-year-old, Earl Thomas $12.32 million guaranteed on his rookie deal, and Antrel Rolle $15 million in 2011 free agency. We're not used to saying it, but it looks like the Skins did pretty well here. Mar 4, 11:57 AMSource: St. Louis Post-Dispatch

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3283/player?r=1

MONK_in_HOF
03-08-2011, 10:00 AM
Atogwe gets $12 million guaranteed
O.J. Atogwe's new five-year, $26 million contract with the Redskins includes roughly $12 million guaranteed.For comparison, Antoine Bethea's four-year deal signed last June contained $18 million in the first two years. Eric Berry got $34 million guaranteed as the No. 5 overall pick last April. Brian Dawkins received $7.2 million guaranteed as a 36-year-old, Earl Thomas $12.32 million guaranteed on his rookie deal, and Antrel Rolle $15 million in 2011 free agency. We're not used to saying it, but it looks like the Skins did pretty well here. Mar 4, 11:57 AMSource: St. Louis Post-Dispatch

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3283/player?r=1

5 years 26 million always sounded reasonable to me for Atogwe. When I heard the guaranteed money and contract breakdown the other day on the radio I was even more pleased with the deal. Now seeing the deal compared to some other notable safety contracts of late makes it look even better. It does indeed look like the Skins did well here, which is an encouraging sign of change in the FO approach.

justinskins
03-08-2011, 10:14 AM
I've been gone for a few days. To repeat something I said earlier: I agree with almost everyone that this is a good signing. It addresses a need at a reasonable price.

However, I do believe that Atogwe is largely a stop-gap as we try to rebuild the team. The Skins need a lot of young talent, and while Atogwe is a good player, he is not young. He could play for another 7 years, but he could also be effectively done as a player after another 3 or so. HamburgerBum is correct that we will not become a good team if our strategy is to patch things together with a veteran FA signing here or there.

Unlike HB I'm not negative at all about this signing, but I do sympathize with him to the extent that, while this is a promising sign, it is far to early to say that the current regime is headed in the right direction, especially after a lot of bad decisions in their first offseason. So far the new management has only proven itself to be good at cutting dead wood, which suggests that Shanny & Allen plan to rebuild, but they still have to show they can actually do it.

In short, the Atogwe signing will be meaningless unless the team shows it can do a good job in the draft and avoid getting screwed over in trades, which they have yet to prove.

Let's see what they do in the draft this and if any of the guys drafted in 2010 (other then Trent Williams) actually turn into players.

Keino
03-08-2011, 10:36 AM
I would be more sympathetic to HB's argument were it not made with every single signing and/or player acquisition we make that doesn't come from the Draft. Filling a need with a quality young-ish guy when we have so many needs is not the type of signing that sends the message that the team feels it is a player or two away from contending.

I do agree though that we need to break the culture/thinking that we react to our roster deficiencies by signing an older vet. We need more pro-active thinking in this regard. So as I said earlier, my hope is that the team will think about drafting his replacement to be groomed in the next few years. But here we didn't give up picks, we didn't sign Atogwe to a terribly expensive deal and we filled one of the consensus top 3 needs on our defense. What's not to like? Many of us thought he should have been signed last year when the Rams released him, but our coaches decided to roll with Kareem Moore and no back-up FS.

Rebuilding doesn't mean stop trying to improve positions of need and only fill those with rookies.

Redskin4Life
03-08-2011, 11:07 AM
A question for those of you that don't agree with this signing and would prefer we draft a replacement.... why can't Kareem Moore be our future FS that learns under Atogwe the ins and outs to playing the position. Essentially we'll have a guy that's ready to be a star in Moore (and at safety a 28-30 yr starter is still very young) and let Atogwe be the stop-gap. We would be set for the next couple of years that way.

SkinsfaninNJ
03-08-2011, 11:15 AM
I would be more sympathetic to HB's argument were it not made with every single signing and/or player acquisition we make that doesn't come from the Draft. Filling a need with a quality young-ish guy when we have so many needs is not the type of signing that sends the message that the team feels it is a player or two away from contending.

I do agree though that we need to break the culture/thinking that we react to our roster deficiencies by signing an older vet. We need more pro-active thinking in this regard. So as I said earlier, my hope is that the team will think about drafting his replacement to be groomed in the next few years. But here we didn't give up picks, we didn't sign Atogwe to a terribly expensive deal and we filled one of the consensus top 3 needs on our defense. What's not to like? Many of us thought he should have been signed last year when the Rams released him, but our coaches decided to roll with Kareem Moore and no back-up FS.

Rebuilding doesn't mean stop trying to improve positions of need and only fill those with rookies.

Exactly. Otogwe, like all FA, are band aids and give the team the luxury of putting off having to spend a high pick on that position for a few years (not forever like the Skins have done with the center position). It buys you some time.

But just to be clear, championship teams do win with FA's, whether it was Reggie White in GB, Darren Sharper in NO, Plax Burress on the Giants or Charles Woodon in GB. These are just a few examples of corner stones of championship teams who were acquired through free agency.

cal_junior
03-08-2011, 12:33 PM
Anybody who doesn't think the Skins are doing business differently under Shanahan/Allen need only take a look at Atogwe's deal. The contract is very front-loaded, with $7+ million of the guaranteed money going against the '11 cap

This means that if Atogwe's production declines after 2-3 years he can be cut or traded without the Skins having to deal with dead cap space after he's gone.

A smart move that doesn't appear to mortgage the future to win today. Something you didn't see very often when Vinny was running things.

justinskins
03-08-2011, 01:28 PM
Rebuilding doesn't mean stop trying to improve positions of need and only fill those with rookies.
Agreed.

Anybody who doesn't think the Skins are doing business differently under Shanahan/Allen need only take a look at Atogwe's deal. The contract is very front-loaded, with $7+ million of the guaranteed money going against the '11 cap

This means that if Atogwe's production declines after 2-3 years he can be cut or traded without the Skins having to deal with dead cap space after he's gone.

A smart move that doesn't appear to mortgage the future to win today. Something you didn't see very often when Vinny was running things.

Agreed. With the caveat that they still have a lot more work to do to build a winning team. What they've done so far is prep work.

silverspring
03-08-2011, 01:59 PM
Anybody who doesn't think the Skins are doing business differently under Shanahan/Allen need only take a look at Atogwe's deal. The contract is very front-loaded, with $7+ million of the guaranteed money going against the '11 cap

This means that if Atogwe's production declines after 2-3 years he can be cut or traded without the Skins having to deal with dead cap space after he's gone.

A smart move that doesn't appear to mortgage the future to win today. Something you didn't see very often when Vinny was running things.

Unfortunately, it is naive to base how business is done on a single signing. You have to look at all their moves to come to a conclusion. If you do you will see a disaster. Every significant non draft move we made last year was executed with utter incompetence. We overpaid. We overpaid, traded draft picks and failed to package a sensible extension in to the trade. When we did sign players to reasonable contracts or didn't trade draft picks for them, those players were geriatric has beens, see willie parker, galloway, johnson, etc.

So if you do examine this front office, you will find that this move is the exception not the rule.

colkurtz
03-08-2011, 02:16 PM
Unfortunately, it is naive to base how business is done on a single signing. You have to look at all their moves to come to a conclusion. If you do you will see a disaster. Every significant non draft move we made last year was executed with utter incompetence. We overpaid. We overpaid, traded draft picks and failed to package a sensible extension in to the trade. When we did sign players to reasonable contracts or didn't trade draft picks for them, those players were geriatric has beens, see willie parker, galloway, johnson, etc.

So if you do examine this front office, you will find that this move is the exception not the rule.

Are you really saying that Shannihan/Allen is doing worse than Snyderrato? First of all a drunk, dart-throwing money could draft better than the boss and his sychophantic tool. Notice that no teams picked up Cerrato for any NFL management position; Snyder is considered EASILY as one of the bottom 5 owners, even those he's thrown his money around trying to attract talent. Second, I agree that McKnabb was a mistake. But there was just so much deadwood on this team you can't do it all in one year. I give them this off-season (if we have one) to see what they can do. I just have to think that any level of decent NFL smarts can beat what we had.

justinskins
03-08-2011, 02:19 PM
Are you really saying that Shannihan/Allen is doing worse than Snyderrato? First of all a drunk, dart-throwing money could draft better than the boss and his sychophantic tool. Notice that no teams picked up Cerrato for any NFL management position; Snyder is considered EASILY as one of the bottom 5 owners, even those he's thrown his money around trying to attract talent. Second, I agree that McKnabb was a mistake. But there was just so much deadwood on this team you can't do it all in one year. I give them this off-season (if we have one) to see what they can do. I just have to think that any level of decent NFL smarts can beat what we had.

No, I don't think he is saying that. But just because we are making better decisions now than under Cerrato doesn't mean we are making good decisions.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 04:30 PM
29(30 on opening day) is older? So please tell me which young free agents that the skins can get cheap should we be signing? There's a list in my sig.



So we sign a proven vet who'll be 30 for the cost of no draft picks and yet you still complain.



So lets never draft any rookies who are going to require several years to develop? I'm sorry HB, your "philosophy" is pretty empty of any substance imo. By your standards the Skins shouldn't make any moves because there's been failures in the past. You believe too much in the draft pick fairy that with good talent evaluation every team should be able to build almost exclusively through the draft. That's pure fantasy. No team is able to do that.

I really wonder if your "philosophy" is just so you can complain about every move the Skins make--regardless if they actually do something that would agree with it. Based on what you're claimed you believed that the Skins *should* do in the past, you should be at least somewhat supporting of signing Atogwe. But you're not and I can't say I'm surprised at all.




To be fair, you were critical last year of..everything, so you never had any confidence. And even if the Skins were to get a GM who follow your "philosophy" you'd complain about it anyways.




So again: which young, cheap free agents would you sign to fill the large number of holes on this team since we don't have enough draft picks to do so in the next 1-2 years.


It is not a question whether I can come up with younger, cheaper FAs instead of Atogwe. I will readily admit that I am not qualified to be the Redskins personnel guru.

What I have been trying to get across is that I think the Skins need to get away from the philosophy of patching here and patching there with older players (yes, I do consider 30 to be "older" when the team is this crappy and needs a major overhaul) for short-term fixes.

You say my philosophy is pretty empty. So, are you saying the Skins philosophy/strategy for building the team the last decade or so has worked well?

By the way, I have never said players should be acquired only via the draft. What I have said is that when the team is as bad as the current Redskins draft should be the primary avenue for rebuilding. By all means sign free agents as well, but they should be younger rather than older. And, never trade high picks for older "proven" players until the team is truly only a player or two away.

You also accuse me of just wanting to complain about every move. I don't know that I have done that. I was very supportive of drafting Sean Taylor and Trent Williams. I liked the trade for Santana Moss. I harshly criticized the trades of 2nd rounders for Jason Taylor and McNabb. I will take my chances that I have been proven right on the last two. Yes, I do tend to criticize moves that involve giving up future high picks for older "proven" players or just acquiring such players in general, because I simply do not think that's smart for a team needing major rebuilding. I have been a life-long Redskins fan (over 50 years), but I won't blindly agree with their moves when I don't think they are right.

cal_junior
03-08-2011, 05:17 PM
Unfortunately, it is naive to base how business is done on a single signing. You have to look at all their moves to come to a conclusion. If you do you will see a disaster. Every significant non draft move we made last year was executed with utter incompetence. We overpaid. We overpaid, traded draft picks and failed to package a sensible extension in to the trade. When we did sign players to reasonable contracts or didn't trade draft picks for them, those players were geriatric has beens, see willie parker, galloway, johnson, etc.

So if you do examine this front office, you will find that this move is the exception not the rule.

The structure of the Atogwe deal is forward-thinking and I don't think would have been handled as well under Vinny. That was my point.

silverspring
03-08-2011, 05:41 PM
Are you really saying that Shannihan/Allen is doing worse than Snyderrato? First of all a drunk, dart-throwing money could draft better than the boss and his sychophantic tool. Notice that no teams picked up Cerrato for any NFL management position; Snyder is considered EASILY as one of the bottom 5 owners, even those he's thrown his money around trying to attract talent. Second, I agree that McKnabb was a mistake. But there was just so much deadwood on this team you can't do it all in one year. I give them this off-season (if we have one) to see what they can do. I just have to think that any level of decent NFL smarts can beat what we had.

Well first of all, I want to believe that feat would be near impossible to accomplish, mostly because they repeated the same mistakes over such a long period of time. You would think a normal business man would learn from their mistakes much sooner.

But based on the current decisions they haven't done any better. Just like before him, Shanahan did a good job with the draft in the first round. Otherwise I think the draft was crap. I still curse the perry riley pick, by the way did you notice that bruce cambell is suppose to be starting next year. Shanahan brought a laundry list of has beens and too many of them lasted too long. Shanahan immediately mortgaged the future with the mcnabb trade. He made the same attempt to win now. But in some ways, shanahan failed even worse then the past. The golden rule whenever you trade draft picks for players is make sure you have an extension in place. Somehow we made this mistake twice in one year. Then we gave mcnabb an extension that isn't very tradeable and they of course marketed as a great move. You know I have noticed throughout the active thread about our current needs, many posters don't site right tackle as a need. But, we traded for brown without an extension. The fact that brown hasn't signed when when many players are securing contracts because of the CBA uncertainty is not a good sign. You can bet that now we are going to either lose him or be forced to over pay for him.

If you then look at the coaching side, you can see that shanahan repeated the same mistakes as his predecessors in not adjusting his schemes to maximize the players talent.

So the short answer is, so far shanahan is doing no better than his predecessors. The Atogwe signing looks good by itself, but I am hoping we are going to see a trend of smart moves. We should be able to make a much better judgment in a few more months.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 05:41 PM
Like whom? Kareem Moore?


Yes, I would rather go with Kareem Moore or some other young safety than Atogwe. Some players take longer to blossom, maybe KM is one of those. Now, we will likely never find out whether KM will ever be a quality NFL safety, since he will be buried behind Atogwe and will be discarded before long.

I presume Atogwe will be a significant upgrade for the short-term. But, so what? The question the Redskins should be asking is what will Atogwe be when the rest of the team gets good enough 3-4 years down the road.

Skaggsrules
03-08-2011, 07:06 PM
Back in 2007, we signed a former St. Louis Ram to a 5 yr $25 million contract, at a time where he was going to be 31 at the start of the year, and people worried about his production, his name was London Fletcher. He will be 36 this coming season, and is still a stalwart on our defense, making two Pro Bowls.

Atogwe is an intelligent player, who could be beneficial to any young player that gets to the Redskins in the secondary. Safeties can still play at high level into their mid 30's. The safety class isn't good this year, Kareem Moore hasn't shown much, if anything, since he has played, so Atogwe fills a hole so we can get younger at other positions, while bringing a good work-ethic that could be beneficial to other players on the D.

Keino
03-08-2011, 07:07 PM
Yes, I would rather go with Kareem Moore or some other young safety than Atogwe. Some players take longer to blossom, maybe KM is one of those. Now, we will likely never find out whether KM will ever be a quality NFL safety, since he will be buried behind Atogwe and will be discarded before long.

I presume Atogwe will be a significant upgrade for the short-term. But, so what? The question the Redskins should be asking is what will Atogwe be when the rest of the team gets good enough 3-4 years down the road.

So your rebuilding plan consists of keeping young ineffective players in-place, merely because they are young? Kareem Moore has had 3 seasons to show what he could do and in those seasons he was injured every season and last year when he won the starting job he failed miserably both in health and in quality of play.

Kareem Moore showed he is not starting quality. That is ok, because not every player in the NFL can be. What Moore has become is quality depth who can play in a pinch, who will contribute on teams and who will see time in the multi-safety packages. He will be far from buried, unless some other young guy takes his spot. That's much more than a short-term upgrade, that's an upgrade of both the starting and back-up FS positions, a position that was largely ignored last season and significantly contributed to our 6 win season. Or have you forgotten the 12 or so games that Moore took a horrible tackling angle or the 2 or so he missed and we had to suffer Reed Doughty playing FS?

This is not like NE signing a 36 year old Rodney Harrison.

Part of rebuilding is identifying the pieces that don't work and replacing them. How can Atogwe's signing be anything but that?

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 07:21 PM
I've been gone for a few days. To repeat something I said earlier: I agree with almost everyone that this is a good signing. It addresses a need at a reasonable price.

However, I do believe that Atogwe is largely a stop-gap as we try to rebuild the team. The Skins need a lot of young talent, and while Atogwe is a good player, he is not young. He could play for another 7 years, but he could also be effectively done as a player after another 3 or so. HamburgerBum is correct that we will not become a good team if our strategy is to patch things together with a veteran FA signing here or there.

Unlike HB I'm not negative at all about this signing, but I do sympathize with him to the extent that, while this is a promising sign, it is far to early to say that the current regime is headed in the right direction, especially after a lot of bad decisions in their first offseason. So far the new management has only proven itself to be good at cutting dead wood, which suggests that Shanny & Allen plan to rebuild, but they still have to show they can actually do it.

In short, the Atogwe signing will be meaningless unless the team shows it can do a good job in the draft and avoid getting screwed over in trades, which they have yet to prove.

Let's see what they do in the draft this and if any of the guys drafted in 2010 (other then Trent Williams) actually turn into players.



I do agree that Atogwe's contract shouldn't be a heavy drag on the salary cap and moreover he should be a significant upgrade at FS for the short-term. But, I would still have declined.

Why? It is because, as you said, Atogwe is likely to be just a stop-gap. If the team keeps doing stop-gaps, it will likely never break from that culture. Sometimes, cold turkey is the only way to kick a bad habit or an addiction.

I agree that Shanahan should be applauded for getting rid of a ton of dead wood. But, I lament the fact he has done that a year late and 3 good picks short. Shanahan's trade for McNabb indicated to me that he had done a terrible job of evaluating the then Redskins roster. He was delusional in thinking the team was just a competent QB away and that an aging McNabb could come in here and win immediately. Hopefully, MS has learned his lesson, but I will reserve judgment and see how he performs from here on.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 07:26 PM
I would be more sympathetic to HB's argument were it not made with every single signing and/or player acquisition we make that doesn't come from the Draft. Filling a need with a quality young-ish guy when we have so many needs is not the type of signing that sends the message that the team feels it is a player or two away from contending.

I do agree though that we need to break the culture/thinking that we react to our roster deficiencies by signing an older vet. We need more pro-active thinking in this regard. So as I said earlier, my hope is that the team will think about drafting his replacement to be groomed in the next few years. But here we didn't give up picks, we didn't sign Atogwe to a terribly expensive deal and we filled one of the consensus top 3 needs on our defense. What's not to like? Many of us thought he should have been signed last year when the Rams released him, but our coaches decided to roll with Kareem Moore and no back-up FS.

Rebuilding doesn't mean stop trying to improve positions of need and only fill those with rookies.


Don't most addicts think he is just going to do one more? Tomorrow, he will stop.

When major rebuilding is needed (and I don't know if there is one person here who doesn't think that is the case with the current Redskins), I do think you have to go young. Short-term improvement with older players won't get the team to where it needs to be.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 07:32 PM
Exactly. Otogwe, like all FA, are band aids and give the team the luxury of putting off having to spend a high pick on that position for a few years (not forever like the Skins have done with the center position). It buys you some time.

But just to be clear, championship teams do win with FA's, whether it was Reggie White in GB, Darren Sharper in NO, Plax Burress on the Giants or Charles Woodon in GB. These are just a few examples of corner stones of championship teams who were acquired through free agency.



Yes, championships are often won with FA players. But, championship teams are seldom built with FAs. Quality FAs are like the icing on the cake, but you got to make the cake first with flour.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 07:36 PM
A question for those of you that don't agree with this signing and would prefer we draft a replacement.... why can't Kareem Moore be our future FS that learns under Atogwe the ins and outs to playing the position. Essentially we'll have a guy that's ready to be a star in Moore (and at safety a 28-30 yr starter is still very young) and let Atogwe be the stop-gap. We would be set for the next couple of years that way.


Because more likely than not Moore will get very little playing time sitting behind Atogwe, and the team will give up on KM after another season or so without finding whether he can actually be a quality FS in the NFL.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 07:42 PM
Anybody who doesn't think the Skins are doing business differently under Shanahan/Allen need only take a look at Atogwe's deal. The contract is very front-loaded, with $7+ million of the guaranteed money going against the '11 cap

This means that if Atogwe's production declines after 2-3 years he can be cut or traded without the Skins having to deal with dead cap space after he's gone.

A smart move that doesn't appear to mortgage the future to win today. Something you didn't see very often when Vinny was running things.


I certainly don't share your optimism/confidence in the current front office. As SilverSpring said, Shanhan made some horrible moves last year--particularly involving McNabb.

Even if the Atogwe signing is a good move (and I don't agree with that either), it is premature to be praising this front office.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 07:46 PM
Back in 2007, we signed a former St. Louis Ram to a 5 yr $25 million contract, at a time where he was going to be 31 at the start of the year, and people worried about his production, his name was London Fletcher. He will be 36 this coming season, and is still a stalwart on our defense, making two Pro Bowls.

Atogwe is an intelligent player, who could be beneficial to any young player that gets to the Redskins in the secondary. Safeties can still play at high level into their mid 30's. The safety class isn't good this year, Kareem Moore hasn't shown much, if anything, since he has played, so Atogwe fills a hole so we can get younger at other positions, while bringing a good work-ethic that could be beneficial to other players on the D.


And, what has the Fletcher signing gotten us besides perpetuating the mediocrity that has defined this franchise for the last decade or so?

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 07:56 PM
So your rebuilding plan consists of keeping young ineffective players in-place, merely because they are young? Kareem Moore has had 3 seasons to show what he could do and in those seasons he was injured every season and last year when he won the starting job he failed miserably both in health and in quality of play.

Kareem Moore showed he is not starting quality. That is ok, because not every player in the NFL can be. What Moore has become is quality depth who can play in a pinch, who will contribute on teams and who will see time in the multi-safety packages. He will be far from buried, unless some other young guy takes his spot. That's much more than a short-term upgrade, that's an upgrade of both the starting and back-up FS positions, a position that was largely ignored last season and significantly contributed to our 6 win season. Or have you forgotten the 12 or so games that Moore took a horrible tackling angle or the 2 or so he missed and we had to suffer Reed Doughty playing FS?

This is not like NE signing a 36 year old Rodney Harrison.

Part of rebuilding is identifying the pieces that don't work and replacing them. How can Atogwe's signing be anything but that?


I thought Moore has played only two seasons so far, but I could be wrong about that. In any event, maybe KM is the kind of player who takes longer to blossom. And, if you don't like Moore, try another young safety back there. The point is that when the team is this bad, short-term upgrades is meaningless. The team needs to acquire and play young players to find out who can be the solution when the team turns it around 3-4 years down the road.

You alluded to NE signing 36-year old Rodney Harrison. Actually, that makes more sense than Wash signing Atogwe. The Pats were good enough to contend, the current Redskins are not.

Keino
03-08-2011, 08:00 PM
Don't most addicts think he is just going to do one more? Tomorrow, he will stop.

When major rebuilding is needed (and I don't know if there is one person here who doesn't think that is the case with the current Redskins), I do think you have to go young. Short-term improvement with older players won't get the team to where it needs to be.

Moore is exactly 3 years younger than Atogwe. Only Atogwe is a much better player. I think a team should strive to improve every year, even years in which it needs to rebuild.

I don't want my team to ever stop trying to get better. I don't mind stop-gaps at certain positions in which older players can be successful if the stop-gap enables the team to get younger at other positions.

You ask what London Fletcher has gotten us? A player that we can all watch and cheer for. A player who brings it week in and week out. By your logic, we should bite the bullet and cut him, not based on anything that occurs on the field, but simply because we are not a good team and he is old.

Barring a Herschel Walker type trade, we are not going to be able to build the team the way you want. We have to maximize value in the next 3 drafts and get young talent across the board. But that doesn't entail giving up on improving the team via F/A acquisitions. Free Agents are going to have to play a roll in our rebuilding.

We didn't give up anything here. Your only objection, ignoring the significant upgrade is that we have given up on Kareem Moore. That is certainly one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that we have improved Kareem's value to us by putting him in a reserve role.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 08:10 PM
I can understand your complaint, but with the holes we have on the roster, do you see any realistic opportunity to put a youngster in that position? We've looked at everyone currently on the roster and they've all been a pile of sucktitude. We only have so many picks, and I'm not real keen on blowing a high pick on a safety when we have problems with the offensive line, wr, qb, dl, olb, etc. FS isn't exactly high on the list of places I want to spend a premium pick given the number of holes yet to be filled.


Other than Atogwe, I actually don't see any sure-fire solution at FS on the current roster. And, yes, this team has a ton of needs and not anywhere near enough picks in the coming draft to address them.

But, that is still not reason for continuing this strategy of patching here and patching there with older "proven" players.

Let's not kid ourselves, the Skins are far behind their three division rivals in talent. It would be delusional to think we will be competitive in the very near future. It would probably take 3 good drafts to build a solid foundation. In the meantime, we are not going to be very good. The team and the fans need to bite the bullet and be patient. Deviating from the rebuilding strategy with attempted shortcuts are likely to be counter-productive and may actually prolong that process.

Skaggsrules
03-08-2011, 08:11 PM
And, what has the Fletcher signing gotten us besides perpetuating the mediocrity that has defined this franchise for the last decade or so?

I addressed your concerns about Atogwe and his production 3-4 years from now, but you go back to the former regime and their inability to field a good team. I think the point that has been hammered down is that you are generalizing one quality signing at a reasonable price to a bunch of terrible signings at terrible prices. One signing doesn't show that the team will be relying heavily on free agency.

If we go and sign Robert Gallery, Sidney Rice, and DeAngelo Williams in one swoop, then you have a valid argument on the philosophy, but a team with 6 draft picks can't just pick up a bunch of D2 school walk-ons for the sake of getting younger, there was an opportunity to get a player, with a great history of production, character, and familiarity with a coach, at a good price.

Do I think the Redskins need to draft well? Absolutely, it will be key to building a consistent winner. Should we ignore a quality player that doesn't require a $30 million bonus and $8 mil a year minimum, just because we should only draft people? No, it's irresponsible, and those players could benefit a young player.

Keino
03-08-2011, 08:11 PM
I thought Moore has played only two seasons so far, but I could be wrong about that. In any event, maybe KM is the kind of player who takes longer to blossom. And, if you don't like Moore, try another young safety back there. The point is that when the team is this bad, short-term upgrades is meaningless. The team needs to acquire and play young players to find out who can be the solution when the team turns it around 3-4 years down the road.

Moore was drafted in the 6th round in 2008.I am suggesting that maybe he is better suited to be depth than starter, in which case we have improved both spots, why this eludes you is beyond me.

We are trying another young safety. His name is OJ Atogwe. We should have signed him last year and had an open competition for the FS position. The team would have been better off for it. If he was 36, you would have a point, but at 29 he has at least 5 years left (and if he doesn't, his contract makes it very easy to cut him).

You alluded to NE signing 36-year old Rodney Harrison. Actually, that makes more sense than Wash signing Atogwe. The Pats were good enough to contend, the current Redskins are not.

That's exactly why I brought that up. That was a good signing because they were a few players away (traded for Corey Dillon as well that same year), but you are making the Atogwe signing seem like that one and it is nothing of the sort.

Furthermore, it is moves like these that will cut-down the time it will take to rebuild assuming we can maximize value in the Draft. I for one think we can be a contender while OJ is still an effective player. League trends show this to be the case, and teams having success with older FS also show this to be the case.

Keino
03-08-2011, 08:13 PM
Other than Atogwe, I actually don't see any sure-fire solution at FS on the current roster.

Stopped reading here. Now we can use the draft on our plethora of needs ranging from O line to D Line to QB....

akhhorus
03-08-2011, 08:16 PM
It is not a question whether I can come up with younger, cheaper FAs instead of Atogwe. I will readily admit that I am not qualified to be the Redskins personnel guru.

What I have been trying to get across is that I think the Skins need to get away from the philosophy of patching here and patching there with older players (yes, I do consider 30 to be "older" when the team is this crappy and needs a major overhaul) for short-term fixes.

Yes, we understand what you're trying to say, you just make literally no sense.

You say my philosophy is pretty empty. So, are you saying the Skins philosophy/strategy for building the team the last decade or so has worked well?

And the Skins' strategy, pre snyder, from 93-98 of staying away from big ticket fa/trades and building through the draft worked out how well exactly? How many starters did we get from the 2008 draft?

By the way, I have never said players should be acquired only via the draft. What I have said is that when the team is as bad as the current Redskins draft should be the primary avenue for rebuilding. By all means sign free agents as well, but they should be younger rather than older. And, never trade high picks for older "proven" players until the team is truly only a player or two away.

So, again: which young, cheap free agents who'll be available when the offseason begins do you think that the skins should sign?

You also accuse me of just wanting to complain about every move.

I have plenty of evidence to support that accusation.

I don't know that I have done that. I was very supportive of drafting Sean Taylor and Trent Williams. I liked the trade for Santana Moss. I harshly criticized the trades of 2nd rounders for Jason Taylor and McNabb. I will take my chances that I have been proven right on the last two. Yes, I do tend to criticize moves that involve giving up future high picks for older "proven" players or just acquiring such players in general, because I simply do not think that's smart for a team needing major rebuilding. I have been a life-long Redskins fan (over 50 years), but I won't blindly agree with their moves when I don't think they are right.

Good thing we didn't give up any picks for Atogwe then. And you're trying to take every sides with this move, you've predictably whined about signing a fa, and then you called it a "slam dunk." Now you're backing off your draft pick fairy beliefs and claiming that you can support some FA signings. So, which FAs would you like the skins to go after?

Yes, I would rather go with Kareem Moore or some other young safety than Atogwe. Some players take longer to blossom, maybe KM is one of those. Now, we will likely never find out whether KM will ever be a quality NFL safety, since he will be buried behind Atogwe and will be discarded before long.

I presume Atogwe will be a significant upgrade for the short-term. But, so what? The question the Redskins should be asking is what will Atogwe be when the rest of the team gets good enough 3-4 years down the road.

We saw Kareem Moore last year: he's not going to be a quality safety in the NFL. Thats why we signed Atogwe, no?

akhhorus
03-08-2011, 08:17 PM
Other than Atogwe, I actually don't see any sure-fire solution at FS on the current roster..

Wait: you don't see any sure-fire solution at FS, but you would prefer to see the skins play Kareem Moore...but you also called signing Atogwe a "slam dunk." Any other positions you want to take here, because I think you've hit just about all of the possible ones.

cal_junior
03-08-2011, 08:20 PM
The question the Redskins should be asking is what will Atogwe be when the rest of the team gets good enough 3-4 years down the road.

The Skins answered this question by front-loading the deal. Atogwe can be easily cut/traded down the road.

HanburgerBum
03-08-2011, 08:23 PM
Moore is exactly 3 years younger than Atogwe. Only Atogwe is a much better player. I think a team should strive to improve every year, even years in which it needs to rebuild.

I don't want my team to ever stop trying to get better. I don't mind stop-gaps at certain positions in which older players can be successful if the stop-gap enables the team to get younger at other positions.

You ask what London Fletcher has gotten us? A player that we can all watch and cheer for. A player who brings it week in and week out. By your logic, we should bite the bullet and cut him, not based on anything that occurs on the field, but simply because we are not a good team and he is old.

Barring a Herschel Walker type trade, we are not going to be able to build the team the way you want. We have to maximize value in the next 3 drafts and get young talent across the board. But that doesn't entail giving up on improving the team via F/A acquisitions. Free Agents are going to have to play a roll in our rebuilding.

We didn't give up anything here. Your only objection, ignoring the significant upgrade is that we have given up on Kareem Moore. That is certainly one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that we have improved Kareem's value to us by putting him in a reserve role.


Fair enough. You state your case well. We just disagree.

It would be tough to cut a veteran player like Fletcher, who is not only classy but who can still play. But, that is exactly what the Skins should do. As good as London has been, he won't be of any use to this team for the long-term. The team needs to play younger players at ILB to find out who can be the long-term solutions.

I bought into this patching with older "proven" players strategy at one time too. But, I see what that has done to this once-proud franchise. I say we go cold turkey and throw out the old. I am prepared to go really bad for a while, because I think that will make us really good sooner.

skinsfan36
03-08-2011, 08:45 PM
atogwe will be 30 on opening day,30 is not old for a safety some corners move to safety after 30 even like woodson,vincent

cal_junior
03-08-2011, 08:56 PM
Breakdown of Atogwe's deal (http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2011/03/oj-atogwe-contract-breakdown.html):

2011: $900,000 base salary (fully guaranteed), $6.5 million roster bonus (fully guaranteed), $500,000 roster bonus, $100,000 workout bonus

2012: $3.4 million base salary ($2 million injury guarantee), $500,000 roster bonus, $100,000 workout bonus

2013: $3.4 million base salary, $500,000 roster bonus, $100,000 workout bonus

2014: $3.6 million base salary, $1 million roster bonus, $100,000 workout bonus

2015: $3.7 million base salary, $1.5 million roster bonus, $100,000 workout bonus

Total value: $26 million over five years ($5.2M APY, which ranks in the Top 10 among active NFL safety contracts), with $9.4 million in guarantees. An additional $1.45 million in base salary escalation is available in the final four years of the deal, pushing the maximum value of the contract to $31.8 million.

HanburgerBum
03-13-2011, 02:46 PM
Yes, we understand what you're trying to say, you just make literally no sense.



And the Skins' strategy, pre snyder, from 93-98 of staying away from big ticket fa/trades and building through the draft worked out how well exactly? How many starters did we get from the 2008 draft?



So, again: which young, cheap free agents who'll be available when the offseason begins do you think that the skins should sign?



I have plenty of evidence to support that accusation.



Good thing we didn't give up any picks for Atogwe then. And you're trying to take every sides with this move, you've predictably whined about signing a fa, and then you called it a "slam dunk." Now you're backing off your draft pick fairy beliefs and claiming that you can support some FA signings. So, which FAs would you like the skins to go after?



We saw Kareem Moore last year: he's not going to be a quality safety in the NFL. Thats why we signed Atogwe, no?



You are good at twisting people's words. You know perfectly well that I have not taken inconsistent position regarding the Atogwe signing.

I said the signing at first blush seems like a slam dunk because he should be a significant upgrade at FS. But, I clearly explained why the Skins should have resisted that temptation nevertheless. I just think the team is a long ways from being good, and acquring older "proven" players who provide short-term improvement perpetuates a failed strategy and is not the way to go.

However, that does not mean older "proven" FAs would not be a good idea when the team is genuinely a player or two away.

You disagree with me, that's fine. But, there is no reason to twist my words.

HanburgerBum
03-13-2011, 02:54 PM
Moore was drafted in the 6th round in 2008.I am suggesting that maybe he is better suited to be depth than starter, in which case we have improved both spots, why this eludes you is beyond me.

We are trying another young safety. His name is OJ Atogwe. We should have signed him last year and had an open competition for the FS position. The team would have been better off for it. If he was 36, you would have a point, but at 29 he has at least 5 years left (and if he doesn't, his contract makes it very easy to cut him).



That's exactly why I brought that up. That was a good signing because they were a few players away (traded for Corey Dillon as well that same year), but you are making the Atogwe signing seem like that one and it is nothing of the sort.

Furthermore, it is moves like these that will cut-down the time it will take to rebuild assuming we can maximize value in the Draft. I for one think we can be a contender while OJ is still an effective player. League trends show this to be the case, and teams having success with older FS also show this to be the case.


You think Atogwe is a "young" safety. I disagree. I think a player who will be 30 before the next football season is not "young".

You think Atogwe will still be effective when the Skins become a contender. If that turns out to be the case, you will be right and I will be wrong. I am rooting for you to be right.

akhhorus
03-13-2011, 02:57 PM
You are good at twisting people's words. You know perfectly well that I have not taken inconsistent position regarding the Atogwe signing.

I said the signing at first blush seems like a slam dunk because he should be a significant upgrade at FS. But, I clearly explained why the Skins should have resisted that temptation nevertheless. I just think the team is a long ways from being good, and acquring older "proven" players who provide short-term improvement perpetuates a failed strategy and is not the way to go.

However, that does not mean older "proven" FAs would not be a good idea when the team is genuinely a player or two away.

You disagree with me, that's fine. But, there is no reason to twist my words.

I'm not twisting your words. You're taking multiple positions on this move--probably so you can claim you were right no matter what.

And your "objection" is still thin based on an empty philosophy--especially when you can't(or refuse to) even suggest some players that would fit your supposed beliefs for the Skins to go after. And more especially since you've tried to walk back your "we shouldn't sign any free agents" to 'maybe we could some free agents if they fit my paradigm' now.

HanburgerBum
03-13-2011, 03:09 PM
I addressed your concerns about Atogwe and his production 3-4 years from now, but you go back to the former regime and their inability to field a good team. I think the point that has been hammered down is that you are generalizing one quality signing at a reasonable price to a bunch of terrible signings at terrible prices. One signing doesn't show that the team will be relying heavily on free agency.

If we go and sign Robert Gallery, Sidney Rice, and DeAngelo Williams in one swoop, then you have a valid argument on the philosophy, but a team with 6 draft picks can't just pick up a bunch of D2 school walk-ons for the sake of getting younger, there was an opportunity to get a player, with a great history of production, character, and familiarity with a coach, at a good price.

Do I think the Redskins need to draft well? Absolutely, it will be key to building a consistent winner. Should we ignore a quality player that doesn't require a $30 million bonus and $8 mil a year minimum, just because we should only draft people? No, it's irresponsible, and those players could benefit a young player.


Yes, the Atogwe signing isn't overly extravagant. And, it may not lead to more signings of older "proven" FAs.

But, I just think the Skins need to get away from the strategy/culture of "patching" with stop-gap players. I hope the Atogwe signing is indeed the last hurrah of an addict, who will now get himself cleaned up.

HanburgerBum
03-13-2011, 03:13 PM
The Skins answered this question by front-loading the deal. Atogwe can be easily cut/traded down the road.


I am not particularly concerned about the finances of Atogwe's contract. I just don't think at his age Atogwe makes sense for a team that needs major rebuilding.

akhhorus
03-13-2011, 03:15 PM
I am not particularly concerned about the finances of Atogwe's contract. I just don't think at his age Atogwe makes sense for a team that needs major rebuilding.

(from earlier in the thread):



The news is that the total deal is 5 years for 26 million. But, what are the particulars? How much guaranteed money? If all 26 million are eventually paid, that isn't exactly cheap for a safety.

HanburgerBum
03-13-2011, 03:17 PM
I'm not twisting your words. You're taking multiple positions on this move--probably so you can claim you were right no matter what.

And your "objection" is still thin based on an empty philosophy--especially when you can't(or refuse to) even suggest some players that would fit your supposed beliefs for the Skins to go after. And more especially since you've tried to walk back your "we shouldn't sign any free agents" to 'maybe we could some free agents if they fit my paradigm' now.


I think any fair-minded person would realize that I have not taken inconsistent positions regarding the Atogwe signing.

If Atogwe is still effective when the Skins turn things around, I would be wrong, no ifs or buts.

akhhorus
03-13-2011, 03:24 PM
I think any fair-minded person would realize that I have not taken inconsistent positions regarding the Atogwe signing.

I can only go on what you post.

If Atogwe is still effective when the Skins turn things around, I would be wrong, no ifs or buts.

And if that's the case, you'll point out that you called the move a "slam dunk."

Sean T RIP
03-14-2011, 01:04 PM
The biggest problem I have is our front office hasn't figured out the only reasons that free agents come here is to get paid it isn't to win

cal_junior
03-14-2011, 01:20 PM
The biggest problem I have is our front office hasn't figured out the only reasons that free agents come here is to get paid it isn't to win

The Atogwe deal doesn't seem to be evidence of this.

HanburgerBum
03-14-2011, 06:32 PM
(from earlier in the thread):



My post about not being concerned about the finances of the Atogwe contract was made after I read about the details of the deal. What I should have said is that now I know the details of the contract, the finances don't really concern me.

HanburgerBum
03-14-2011, 06:38 PM
I can only go on what you post.



And if that's the case, you'll point out that you called the move a "slam dunk."



You know perfectly well that I said the Atogwe signing appears to be a "slam dunk" at first blush. But, then I went on to explain why it really isn't.

If the Atogwe signing does turn out great and he is still a signficant part of the team when things are turned around, I would be wrong. If I then go ahead and claim credit and say the signing was a "slam dunk" from the start, I would be taking multiple and inconsistent positions. And, you would be within your rights to call me on it. But, shouldn't you wait to see if I do that before you dump on me?

akhhorus
03-14-2011, 06:54 PM
My post about not being concerned about the finances of the Atogwe contract was made after I read about the details of the deal. What I should have said is that now I know the details of the contract, the finances don't really concern me.

lol. So as soon as it became clear that you couldn't complain about the terms of the deal, you've decided-with a straight face-to try and claim that you weren't concerned with the terms(even though you brought it up the basic outlines of Atogwe's deal in all your early posts in this thread). HB, you make this too easy sometimes lol.

You know perfectly well that I said the Atogwe signing appears to be a "slam dunk" at first blush. But, then I went on to explain why it really isn't.

Except that you didn't compliment the move, then sour on it. You were sour on it, then continued to be sour on it and after it became clear that you had no support on this, you're hedging on just about everything now. Which is probably wise you called the Atogwe signing a "slam dunk at first blush." You've even hedged on your "The skins shouldn't sign any free agent" mantra.

If the Atogwe signing does turn out great and he is still a signficant part of the team when things are turned around, I would be wrong. If I then go ahead and claim credit and say the signing was a "slam dunk" from the start, I would be taking multiple and inconsistent positions. And, you would be within your rights to call me on it. But, shouldn't you wait to see if I do that before you dump on me?

I'll promise to wait as long as you do to sh*t on a move. Only I'll be consistent with my opinions :)

HanburgerBum
03-15-2011, 10:56 PM
lol. So as soon as it became clear that you couldn't complain about the terms of the deal, you've decided-with a straight face-to try and claim that you weren't concerned with the terms(even though you brought it up the basic outlines of Atogwe's deal in all your early posts in this thread). HB, you make this too easy sometimes lol.



Except that you didn't compliment the move, then sour on it. You were sour on it, then continued to be sour on it and after it became clear that you had no support on this, you're hedging on just about everything now. Which is probably wise you called the Atogwe signing a "slam dunk at first blush." You've even hedged on your "The skins shouldn't sign any free agent" mantra.



I'll promise to wait as long as you do to sh*t on a move. Only I'll be consistent with my opinions :)



It is unclear to me why it is inconsistent to express concerns about the financial details of the Atogwe deal before the details were known and then being okay with it after the details became known. How is that hedging?

Also, my position about the Atogwe acquisition has been totally consistent. The signing on the surface looks desirable for the reasons you and others have posted. But, I clearly explained why I don't agree with those reasons. I haven't hedged one iota. If the Atogwe acquisition turns out to be a good one (by that, I mean he is still a significant part of the team when the Skins turn things around), then I am wrong. And, I would be glad to admit it.

For your information, I didn't hedge either when the Skins traded for Jason Taylor and Donovan McNabb. I thought both were lousy deals that didn't make sense and said so at the time--even while many in this chat room were cheering those moves.

akhhorus
03-16-2011, 09:17 AM
It is unclear to me why it is inconsistent to express concerns about the financial details of the Atogwe deal before the details were known and then being okay with it after the details became known. How is that hedging?

Because you were griping about the overall contract amount.


Also, my position about the Atogwe acquisition has been totally consistent. The signing on the surface looks desirable for the reasons you and others have posted. But, I clearly explained why I don't agree with those reasons. I haven't hedged one iota. If the Atogwe acquisition turns out to be a good one (by that, I mean he is still a significant part of the team when the Skins turn things around), then I am wrong. And, I would be glad to admit it.

No, you won't. And I've pointed out where you're taking multiple positions on this move. You can deny it, but it is what it is.

For your information, I didn't hedge either when the Skins traded for Jason Taylor and Donovan McNabb. I thought both were lousy deals that didn't make sense and said so at the time--even while many in this chat room were cheering those moves.

Good to know, not that this has anything to do with anything at hand.

If you want to continue this HB, pm me. I'm done junking up this thread pointing out your nonsense.

smallfish
03-29-2011, 07:59 PM
The defense last year totally unraveled when Landry went down. Hopefully they stay healthy and we can find a legit NT.