PDA

View Full Version : Vikes May Be Interested in McNabb


hail2skins
04-19-2011, 01:54 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81f52f33/article/report-vikings-one-of-teams-looking-into-mcnabb-as-next-qb?module=HP_headlines

DaveKShape
04-19-2011, 01:57 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/18/report-vikings-interested-in-donovan-mcnabb/

According to Mike Jones of the Post, one league source says no teams are willing to shell out substantial compensation for McNabb because the Redskins “already tipped their hand” that the 34-year-old quarterback has no future in Washington.

*circus music plays*

CNYSkinFan
04-19-2011, 02:01 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/18/report-vikings-interested-in-donovan-mcnabb/



*circus music plays*
hmmmm geee...I guess it wasn't ok to tank the last three games of the season to try out Grossman to be our backup....

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 02:20 PM
Wait until after the draft, McNabb's value will go up.

CNYSkinFan
04-19-2011, 02:24 PM
Wait until after the draft, McNabb's value will go up.
well at this rate we wont have a choice

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 02:26 PM
well at this rate we wont have a choice

We have until September to deal him before his roster bonus is due. After next weekend, if you want a vet QB, your choices are:
-McNabb
-Vince Young
-Tavaris Jackson
-Texting Brett Favre and hoping that he doesn't take it the wrong way
-Dealing with Carson Palmer

....and not much else.

I suspect that the Skins will have a "Vikings 4th+2012 conditional pick" for "a conditional clause that will be mcnabb" deal during the draft.

shally
04-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Wait until after the draft, McNabb's value will go up.

+1

Skaggsrules
04-19-2011, 02:32 PM
Or we wait for training camp, and hope a starter goes down, and a team gets desperate

shally
04-19-2011, 02:44 PM
Or we wait for training camp, and hope a starter goes down, and a team gets desperate

...or all those draft picks look like they wont be ready for a long time when camps open.. plus, using 2012 draft picks is always an easier trade to make

44 goes 50 gut
04-19-2011, 03:03 PM
I for one suspect we'll see him in camp as the skins starting QB next season, unless a team is willing to part with a decent pick. He just wasn't that bad last season... His only mistake was not making the entire Skins fan base, and apparently Kyle Shanahan, watch tape of his entire career (so they could temper their expectations with the reality of who he is and what he does). And of course being the QB of a team that is 2 or three years overdue for a complete rebuild.

I'd like to say it's startling to me that Fans can on the one hand acknowledge just how devoid of talent and depth the skins roster is, but at the same time they can call McNabb's play (and to a lesser extent the OC's "play calling") out like he was to blame... or that he even did anything particularly unusual.

But it's not startling... I guess I'm getting jaded, but I have slowly gotten used to the fact that even die hard fans tend to not know the players on other teams, even division rivals. And they also tend to place way too much blame on QB's and coaches.

Emmanouel8
04-19-2011, 03:04 PM
...or all those draft picks look like they wont be ready for a long time when camps open.. plus, using 2012 draft picks is always an easier trade to make

And who knows, if we don't end up with a QB this draft we get ammunition to trade up for one next year.

NCskinsfanatic
04-19-2011, 03:09 PM
I dont think we'll get much and he'd have to be willing to restructure his contract...which Id have to wonder why he would do so rather than call the skins bluff and make them cut him or pay him. He'd have far more control over his destination were he to force our hand. I doubt he wants to end up going through what he went through this past season again if he can help it.

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 03:14 PM
I for one suspect we'll see him in camp as the skins starting QB next season, unless a team is willing to part with a decent pick. He just wasn't that bad last season... His only mistake was not making the entire Skins fan base, and apparently Kyle Shanahan, watch tape of his entire career (so they could temper their expectations with the reality of who he is and what he does). And of course being the QB of a team that is 2 or three years overdue for a complete rebuild.

I'd like to say it's startling to me that Fans can on the one hand acknowledge just how devoid of talent and depth the skins roster is, but at the same time they can call McNabb's play (and to a lesser extent the OC's "play calling") out like he was to blame... or that he even did anything particularly unusual.

But it's not startling... I guess I'm getting jaded, but I have slowly gotten used to the fact that even die hard fans tend to not know the players on other teams, even division rivals. And they also tend to place way too much blame on QB's and coaches.

I hope you're right, but I think that the McNabb/K-Shanny relationship is close to Charlie Sheen's relationship with Chuck Lorre at this point lol.

As for the fans: unfortunately its a natural process. We gave up a 2nd and a 4th for him, so he's to blame for everything apparently(no matter the facts of the case) lol.

HanburgerBum
04-19-2011, 03:26 PM
I for one suspect we'll see him in camp as the skins starting QB next season, unless a team is willing to part with a decent pick. He just wasn't that bad last season... His only mistake was not making the entire Skins fan base, and apparently Kyle Shanahan, watch tape of his entire career (so they could temper their expectations with the reality of who he is and what he does). And of course being the QB of a team that is 2 or three years overdue for a complete rebuild.

I'd like to say it's startling to me that Fans can on the one hand acknowledge just how devoid of talent and depth the skins roster is, but at the same time they can call McNabb's play (and to a lesser extent the OC's "play calling") out like he was to blame... or that he even did anything particularly unusual.

But it's not startling... I guess I'm getting jaded, but I have slowly gotten used to the fact that even die hard fans tend to not know the players on other teams, even division rivals. And they also tend to place way too much blame on QB's and coaches.


I don't know if you live in the Wash area, but the WashPost had an article a while back stating that Kyle Shanahan was against trading for McNabb in the first place and was instrumental in his benching. It would be hard to visualize any circumstance under which McNabb would return as the starter. Unless, you think the head coach is getting ready to ditch his son, the coordinator.

If it were not for the labor situation and the restrictions against moving players, I think McNabb would be gone already.

shally
04-19-2011, 03:28 PM
I don't know if you live in the Wash area, but the WashPost had an article a while back stating that Kyle Shanahan was against trading for McNabb in the first place and was instrumental in his benching. It would be hard to visualize any circumstance under which McNabb would return as the starter. Unless, you think the head coach is getting ready to ditch his son, the coordinator.

If it were not for the labor situation and the restrictions against moving players, I think McNabb would be gone already.

maybe. Shanahan can be stubborn in holding out for what he wants in trade

HanburgerBum
04-19-2011, 03:37 PM
Or we wait for training camp, and hope a starter goes down, and a team gets desperate


Waiting is a two-edge sword.

It is possible that things can develop (e.g. injuries) that could cause McNabb's trading value to go up. But, on the other hand, time will not be on the Redskins' side.

For one thing, the labor situation will likely cause a shortened offseason and a shortened training camp. To have maximum beneficial effect, a QB needs to get with his new team ASAP.

For another thing, as Sept nears, the Skins will be more desperate to dump DM and the other teams will know that.

If it were up to me, I would trade DM for the first reasonable offer that comes along. It makes sense for the Vikings to acquire McNabb, since they have a lot of pieces in place other than a QB. Hopefully, Minnesota would offer a 2012 3rd rounder. But, I would probably take a 2012 4th and a 2013 4th.

justinskins
04-19-2011, 03:45 PM
If it were up to me, I would trade DM for the first reasonable offer that comes along. It makes sense for the Vikings to acquire McNabb, since they have a lot of pieces in place other than a QB. Hopefully, Minnesota would offer a 2012 3rd rounder. But, I would probably take a 2012 4th and a 2013 4th.

IMO, whether we draft a QB or not, it would probably be worth more to the team to keep McNabb for another year or two than get a 4th-round pick. If we don't draft someone, we need a starter; if we do draft someone, I wouldn't want to throw him behind our line right at the beginning of his career.

A few months ago, I thought there was no way McNabb stays. With the shortened offseason, maybe there's a chance.... Probably still more likely that he goes to the Vikes. But if I were Shanny I'd probably pay his bonus, kiss his butt a little bit and talk him into staying.

Monk4HOF
04-19-2011, 04:43 PM
Oh no! Who's gonna run the scout team next year?

McNabb is as good as gone. He refused to adapt his playing style to his new coach's philosophy, he lost a big dimension to his game due to age and injury (his ability to run for the big first down), and the OC never wanted him... it will never work. Might as well grab a 2012 pick for him while we can.

44 goes 50 gut
04-19-2011, 04:43 PM
I don't know if you live in the Wash area, but the WashPost had an article a while back stating that Kyle Shanahan was against trading for McNabb in the first place and was instrumental in his benching. It would be hard to visualize any circumstance under which McNabb would return as the starter. Unless, you think the head coach is getting ready to ditch his son, the coordinator.

If it were not for the labor situation and the restrictions against moving players, I think McNabb would be gone already.

Not sure how much stock I put it that, it's hard to imagine a situation where either Shanhan talks to a reporter and says "yeah Kyle was against trading for McNabb" or "Yeah I was against trading for McNabb" Or even a situation where someone who knows either of them that well that they would feel comfortable letting that nugget slip, who actually heard them say that, and then informed the media of it.

I do know that the media loves to mask speculation inside of "anonymous sources" and I know for a fact that those anonymous sources don't always end up being remotely qualified or knowledgeable.

I can't imagine why Mike Shanahan would trade for a QB that his OC doesn't want... Unless someone else was the one pushing for McNabb...

I can imagine a situation where a certain someone; refused to give up the idea that the team could "win now" and then maybe pushed for McNabb. Perhaps with the understanding that if it didn't work, they would try things Mike's way and rebuild... But then I've voiced this "tin foil hat" theory before. Sure does make a lot of head scratching puzzle pieces fall into place.

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 04:49 PM
He refused to adapt his playing style to his new coach's philosophy

That door swung both ways. McNabb asked for more screens because of the Oline problems, and K-Shanny refused---only to see him call far more screens when Grossman was in.

44 goes 50 gut
04-19-2011, 05:19 PM
That door swung both ways. McNabb asked for more screens because of the Oline problems, and K-Shanny refused---only to see him call far more screens when Grossman was in.

According to Shanahan Sr. himself when they heard the media talking about Kyle putting in more screens for grossman they went back through games and counted the screens, and found that they called 4-5 of them on average no matter who was starting.

Just goes to show sports agents aren't necessarily great at breaking film down.

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 05:26 PM
According to Shanahan Sr. himself when they heard the media talking about Kyle putting in more screens for grossman they went back through games and counted the screens, and found that they called 4-5 of them on average no matter who was starting.

Just goes to show sports agents aren't necessarily great at breaking film down.

They may have "called" 4-5 a game(and I bet Shanny Sr is claiming that WR screens count towards that figure and they ran a ton of those with McNabb), but there was a major difference in the use of the screen under McNabb and under Rexy. They clearly used much more RB screens under Rex(which I assume is what McNabb was asking for). A wr screen can be countered with a zone blitz, a RB screen helps deal with a pass rush issue--which the skins had last year.

BIGREDSKINSFAN1963
04-19-2011, 06:30 PM
look who the team leader is now!
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81f57397/article/fletcher-organizes-redskins-player-workout-mcnabb-missing

hail2skins
04-19-2011, 07:19 PM
Wait until after the draft, McNabb's value will go up.If the Redskins wanted to be nasty, they could hold him til the very last minute before that 10 mil is due. They would have to cut him right after the first home game before the next day when the bonus is due.

hail2skins
04-19-2011, 07:21 PM
We have until September to deal him before his roster bonus is due. After next weekend, if you want a vet QB, your choices are:
-McNabb
-Vince Young
-Tavaris Jackson
-Texting Brett Favre and hoping that he doesn't take it the wrong way
-Dealing with Carson Palmer

....and not much else.

I suspect that the Skins will have a "Vikings 4th+2012 conditional pick" for "a conditional clause that will be mcnabb" deal during the draft.
I made this point before seeing your post. They could hold him til after the first game.

hail2skins
04-19-2011, 07:27 PM
I for one suspect we'll see him in camp as the skins starting QB next season, unless a team is willing to part with a decent pick. He just wasn't that bad last season... His only mistake was not making the entire Skins fan base, and apparently Kyle Shanahan, watch tape of his entire career (so they could temper their expectations with the reality of who he is and what he does). And of course being the QB of a team that is 2 or three years overdue for a complete rebuild.

I'd like to say it's startling to me that Fans can on the one hand acknowledge just how devoid of talent and depth the skins roster is, but at the same time they can call McNabb's play (and to a lesser extent the OC's "play calling") out like he was to blame... or that he even did anything particularly unusual.

But it's not startling... I guess I'm getting jaded, but I have slowly gotten used to the fact that even die hard fans tend to not know the players on other teams, even division rivals. And they also tend to place way too much blame on QB's and coaches.Oh C'mon with this stuff, we all know QB's get blamed for everything that goes wrong the offense. How many times do we hear analysts say that it will happen. We also know they don't deserve the blame sometime.

I personally blame a lot of it on Kyle for not having patience with McNabb. Why didn't he have the patience is the question. Was it his ego or was it he thought a veteran QB should pick up the offense faster than what he though McNabb did. I don't know. I do know that stories came out about McNabb giving suggestions to Kyle for more screens because of the pressure and Kyle didn't listen to him. I believe several other members here acknowledged that as well.

hail2skins
04-19-2011, 07:30 PM
Not sure how much stock I put it that, it's hard to imagine a situation where either Shanhan talks to a reporter and says "yeah Kyle was against trading for McNabb" or "Yeah I was against trading for McNabb" Or even a situation where someone who knows either of them that well that they would feel comfortable letting that nugget slip, who actually heard them say that, and then informed the media of it.

I do know that the media loves to mask speculation inside of "anonymous sources" and I know for a fact that those anonymous sources don't always end up being remotely qualified or knowledgeable.

I can't imagine why Mike Shanahan would trade for a QB that his OC doesn't want... Unless someone else was the one pushing for McNabb...

I can imagine a situation where a certain someone; refused to give up the idea that the team could "win now" and then maybe pushed for McNabb. Perhaps with the understanding that if it didn't work, they would try things Mike's way and rebuild... But then I've voiced this "tin foil hat" theory before. Sure does make a lot of head scratching puzzle pieces fall into place.The same way the Redskins signed Haynesworth when Blache was against it.

Red Bear
04-19-2011, 07:35 PM
im not so sure they could hold him until after the first game. though his bonus is due the next day, there is also a rule a veteran of so many years gets his salary fully gauranteed if theyre on the week 1 roster. im not sure if mcnabb falls under that or not, but it could be something thats overlooked

Red Bear
04-19-2011, 07:37 PM
The same way the Redskins traded for Haynesworth when Blache was against it.

haynesworth was a free agent signing. im going to assume you mean jason taylor

esmith1790
04-19-2011, 07:47 PM
look who the team leader is now!
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81f57397/article/fletcher-organizes-redskins-player-workout-mcnabb-missing

Does anyone know the wording of a NFL coaching contract?

Could it be possible a coach was fired or just up and quit. THen worked with the players and got the ready and then re-hired once the season was starting out?

I remember reading somewhere that a former Strength and Conditioning coach was meeting with some players he previously worked with at his prior team.

hail2skins
04-19-2011, 07:58 PM
haynesworth was a free agent signing. im going to assume you mean jason taylor
traded/signed it's all the same. A coach was reported against it. That's the point.

hail2skins
04-19-2011, 08:01 PM
im not so sure they could hold him until after the first game. though his bonus is due the next day, there is also a rule a veteran of so many years gets his salary fully gauranteed if theyre on the week 1 roster. im not sure if mcnabb falls under that or not, but it could be something thats overlooked
I read earlier today and it may even be in the article I posted that the bonus is due the day after the 1st game. The Redskins can cut him whenever they decide. Also, don't bring money as an issue into this as we know how the Danny is in terms of spending dead money.

shally
04-19-2011, 08:12 PM
look who the team leader is now!
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81f57397/article/fletcher-organizes-redskins-player-workout-mcnabb-missing

what is interesting to me is that Grossman practiced WITHOUT being under contract.. i think that really sends a message that he WANTS to be a part of the team and be re signed.. sure, it was only an hour or so, but having a QB throw the ball instead of a punter or linebacker does make a difference

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 08:19 PM
traded/signed it's all the same. A coach was reported against it. That's the point.

Count Blacheula probably supported getting Haynesworth and Taylor, but at some point he decided to screw around with both of them for reasons known only to his immortal brain. He used Taylor as a run stopper and would bench Haynesworth for changing the line call, even if it was the right move.

what is interesting to me is that Grossman practiced WITHOUT being under contract.. i think that really sends a message that he WANTS to be a part of the team and be re signed.. sure, it was only an hour or so, but having a QB throw the ball instead of a punter or linebacker does make a difference

So did Rocky. I wouldn't count on either coming back frankly.

Keino
04-19-2011, 08:30 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/18/report-vikings-interested-in-donovan-mcnabb/



*circus music plays*

The number of people who dismissed this happening out of hand last season should all have to post their crow.

There was absolutely NO upside to benching McNabb for Grossman. Have fun lying down in that bed you made Shanny and Son....

shally
04-19-2011, 08:30 PM
Count Blacheula probably supported getting Haynesworth and Taylor, but at some point he decided to screw around with both of them for reasons known only to his immortal brain. He used Taylor as a run stopper and would bench Haynesworth for changing the line call, even if it was the right move.



So did Rocky. I wouldn't count on either coming back frankly.

i saw that about Rocky.. and i think it might mean he also really wants to be a Redskin.. was Moss there ??????

i like Rocky's attitude a lot more than Rogers

in the end, the coaches may decide they dont want EITHER Grossman or Rocky back, and i am ok with that.. but i think ALL the Captains should have been there. some were, some were not..

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 08:33 PM
i saw that about Rocky.. and i think it might mean he also really wants to be a Redskin.. was Moss there ??????

i like Rocky's attitude a lot more than Rogers

in the end, the coaches may decide they dont want EITHER Grossman or Rocky back, and i am ok with that.. but i think ALL the Captains should have been there. some were, some were not..

Moss wasn't there.

I don't know if I would read too much into who attended or not.

shally
04-19-2011, 08:34 PM
Moss wasn't there.

I don't know if I would read too much into who attended or not.

how is Rex still a Redskin ? he has an expired contract, no ?

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 08:37 PM
how is Rex still a Redskin ? he has an expired contract, no ?

In a strict technical sense, he's still a redskins player since the next league year hasn't started. Moss isn't since he was released(same for Carter).

silverspring
04-19-2011, 08:38 PM
I think a lot more teams than normally would, are going to try to pick up qbs in the draft because of the uncertainty of not being able to secure a qb through trades. This won't be good for mcnabb's value.

skinsfan36
04-19-2011, 09:06 PM
In a strict technical sense, he's still a redskins player since the next league year hasn't started. Moss isn't since he was released(same for Carter).

moss contract voids when the league year starts so he still is. carter was released

akhhorus
04-19-2011, 09:12 PM
moss contract voids when the league year starts so he still is. carter was released

Thats right, thx for the clarification.

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 07:38 AM
That door swung both ways. McNabb asked for more screens because of the Oline problems, and K-Shanny refused---only to see him call far more screens when Grossman was in.

Meh... If I were Shanny I would have expected more from McNabb than Grossman as well. McNabb was supposed to be the franchise QB and had taken the first team reps all season. He was supposed to be able to handle pressure, move around, and make plays. Grossman was a last minute stopgap and the coaching staff adjusted the playbook accordingly.

I don't want a QB that comes to me as a head coach and begs for more screens. I want a QB who wants to attack down the field... and leaves it to the HC to decide when to switch things up with a screen.

All things said, I am not even sure how accurate all of the reporting was on this stuff anyway. In any case, McNabb knows he's gone... that's why Grossman and Beck are the only QBs at the team organized practice.

Keino
04-20-2011, 07:58 AM
Meh... If I were Shanny I would have expected more from McNabb than Grossman as well. McNabb was supposed to be the franchise QB and had taken the first team reps all season. He was supposed to be able to handle pressure, move around, and make plays. Grossman was a last minute stopgap and the coaching staff adjusted the playbook accordingly.

I don't want a QB that comes to me as a head coach and begs for more screens. I want a QB who wants to attack down the field... and leaves it to the HC to decide when to switch things up with a screen.

All things said, I am not even sure how accurate all of the reporting was on this stuff anyway. In any case, McNabb knows he's gone... that's why Grossman and Beck are the only QBs at the team organized practice.

You know that the Skins led the league in plays over 30 yards with McNabb as QB right? Asking for screens isn't an ability to throw the ball downfield issue, it is a dealing with a pass-rush issue. If your team can't stop pass rusher coming up the middle the way to keep defenses honest is to call, among other things, RB screens.

hail2skins
04-20-2011, 08:29 AM
Meh... If I were Shanny I would have expected more from McNabb than Grossman as well. McNabb was supposed to be the franchise QB and had taken the first team reps all season. He was supposed to be able to handle pressure, move around, and make plays. Grossman was a last minute stopgap and the coaching staff adjusted the playbook accordingly.

I don't want a QB that comes to me as a head coach and begs for more screens. I want a QB who wants to attack down the field... and leaves it to the HC to decide when to switch things up with a screen.

All things said, I am not even sure how accurate all of the reporting was on this stuff anyway. In any case, McNabb knows he's gone... that's why Grossman and Beck are the only QBs at the team organized practice.How many playoff games did that QB win when he had a coach who would listen? QB's make recommendations all the time from what they are experiencing on the field. A good OC listens to that information and just doesn't disregard it.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 08:36 AM
Meh... If I were Shanny I would have expected more from McNabb than Grossman as well. McNabb was supposed to be the franchise QB and had taken the first team reps all season. He was supposed to be able to handle pressure, move around, and make plays. Grossman was a last minute stopgap and the coaching staff adjusted the playbook accordingly.

Except that they made the adjustments that McNabb was asking for. That completely undermines your point here.


I don't want a QB that comes to me as a head coach and begs for more screens. I want a QB who wants to attack down the field... and leaves it to the HC to decide when to switch things up with a screen.

What Keino said. And when a Qb is running for his life, which McNabb was, running Rb screens to slow it down is football 101. Demanding longer, deeper routes just makes the problem worse.

Keino
04-20-2011, 09:32 AM
Except that they made the adjustments that McNabb was asking for. That completely undermines your point here.


After he was benched.

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 09:35 AM
You all missed my point entirely, so I obviously didn't do a good job of explaining it. It's the mentality that I am interested in... I fully understand the benefits of running a screen against an aggressive defense. What I don't like is a QB who makes excuses for his poor performance by complaining that the coaches didn't let him throw more screens. It's the "that's how we do it in Philly" mentality... you aren't in Philly anymore, so run the offense. Yes, there are obviously times when QB should give feedback to the HC and the HC should be open to it. But, McNabb never fully bought in to the new offense and that was the main reason for his failure.

Bottom line is that there are many reasons why Andy Reid was willing to let McNabb come here... but ultimately he was just not afraid of facing him twice a year. I didn't like the McNabb trade when it happened... I tried to be supportive during the season, but McNabb failed at QB here,so we just need to move on.

Keino
04-20-2011, 09:48 AM
There is nothing to support the notion that he didn't buy into the system here. He was on pace for a 4,000 yard season. All he did was ask for some adjustments in play-calling that as a 10 year vet in the league he knew would help slow down the pass rush that had him running for his life. It's not like his accuracy issues weren't widely known before they brought him in.

hail2skins
04-20-2011, 09:57 AM
You all missed my point entirely, so I obviously didn't do a good job of explaining it. It's the mentality that I am interested in... I fully understand the benefits of running a screen against an aggressive defense. What I don't like is a QB who makes excuses for his poor performance by complaining that the coaches didn't let him throw more screens. It's the "that's how we do it in Philly" mentality... you aren't in Philly anymore, so run the offense. Yes, there are obviously times when QB should give feedback to the HC and the HC should be open to it. But, McNabb never fully bought in to the new offense and that was the main reason for his failure.

Bottom line is that there are many reasons why Andy Reid was willing to let McNabb come here... but ultimately he was just not afraid of facing him twice a year. I didn't like the McNabb trade when it happened... I tried to be supportive during the season, but McNabb failed at QB here,so we just need to move on.
Screen plays aren't a "that's how we do it in Philly" excuse, it's basic football 101.

Also, I don't recall McNabb using excuses for his performance at all so I'd like to know where you're getting it from. I also don't know how you can say he didn't buy into the system and that caused his failure. Please explain that one further.

GibbsFan
04-20-2011, 09:58 AM
McNabb is an excellent example of the QB getting too much blame. The 2011 Redskins offense was like a wild texan bronco with no where to go, and no knowledge of how to get there. :smash:

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 10:06 AM
There is nothing to support the notion that he didn't buy into the system here.

Sure there is... it's all in the same reports about McNabb complaining about the lack of screen passes. The Shanny's were not happy with McNabb's knowledge of the playbook and McNabb was not happy with the coach's lack of adaptation of the scheme to his past experiences. If you take one side of the story as truth, you have to accept the other side as well. The Shanny-McNabb relationship didn't work. There will be opinions as to which side is more culpable for that failure... it's obvious that our opinions simply differ on who that is, so I'll just leave it at that.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 10:09 AM
Sure there is... it's all in the same reports about McNabb complaining about the lack of screen passes. The Shanny's were not happy with McNabb's knowledge of the playbook and McNabb was not happy with the coach's lack of adaptation of the scheme to his past experiences.

Your point here falls apart, again, with the Shannys doing what McNabb asked when Grossman came in. McNabb might not have "bought into the system" but the coach's job is to adjust his scheme to the talent that he has. Thats what's made coaches like Gibbs, Belichick, Shula and Parcells great: they would change things to maximize what they have on their hands. McNabb could have put in more time(but to be fair, he's NEVER been considered lazy or dumb) but the coaches, imo, are far more culpable about why the offense struggled. Especially since they effectively admitted to the same issues that McNabb saw when Rex came in.

CNYSkinFan
04-20-2011, 10:21 AM
I love how we are again arguing the decision to bench mcnabb when exactly what Akh, Keino, and I were posting has now played out. We unwisely switched to grossman mid season, he was not the savior Kyle hoped for, we played mediocre down the stretch, we tipped our hand in trading mcnabb, that along with labor strife is keeping us from getting any value for him, and being stuck at #10 means we r not high enough to grab a true game changing rookie to build the team around....


Once again the Redskins would have been better off changing the system for dmac, rebuilding the lines and going for a rookie qb in year 3 of Shanny. But Shanny does not want to do a proper rebuild so we are making alot of "win now" moves ...and not winning now.

shally
04-20-2011, 10:41 AM
I love how we are again arguing the decision to bench mcnabb when exactly what Akh, Keino, and I were posting has now played out. We unwisely switched to grossman mid season, he was not the savior Kyle hoped for, we played mediocre down the stretch, we tipped our hand in trading mcnabb, that along with labor strife is keeping us from getting any value for him, and being stuck at #10 means we r not high enough to grab a true game changing rookie to build the team around....


Once again the Redskins would have been better off changing the system for dmac, rebuilding the lines and going for a rookie qb in year 3 of Shanny. But Shanny does not want to do a proper rebuild so we are making alot of "win now" moves ...and not winning now.

"mid season" ??????


season was lost by then. mcnabb looked inefficient and lost much of the time.

he wasnt the answer. doesnt matter who was at "fault."... the correct decision was simply to move on.

Grossman isnt the answer either

if you wait till year 3 to get a rookie QB, you will have a new head coach in year 4 wanting to draft his guy then..just treading water

i think the mistake was trading for mcnabb in the first place. he has enough of a track record to know he was a poor fit. dumb idea. but to keep him on just perpetuates the bad idea. move on. that is what we are doing

shally
04-20-2011, 10:43 AM
You all missed my point entirely, so I obviously didn't do a good job of explaining it. It's the mentality that I am interested in... I fully understand the benefits of running a screen against an aggressive defense. What I don't like is a QB who makes excuses for his poor performance by complaining that the coaches didn't let him throw more screens. It's the "that's how we do it in Philly" mentality... you aren't in Philly anymore, so run the offense. Yes, there are obviously times when QB should give feedback to the HC and the HC should be open to it. But, McNabb never fully bought in to the new offense and that was the main reason for his failure.

Bottom line is that there are many reasons why Andy Reid was willing to let McNabb come here... but ultimately he was just not afraid of facing him twice a year. I didn't like the McNabb trade when it happened... I tried to be supportive during the season, but McNabb failed at QB here,so we just need to move on.


exactly correct !! it says a huge message when a team is unafraid to trade it's starting QB to one of it's main rivals

Keino
04-20-2011, 10:45 AM
Sure there is... it's all in the same reports about McNabb complaining about the lack of screen passes. The Shanny's were not happy with McNabb's knowledge of the playbook and McNabb was not happy with the coach's lack of adaptation of the scheme to his past experiences. If you take one side of the story as truth, you have to accept the other side as well. The Shanny-McNabb relationship didn't work. There will be opinions as to which side is more culpable for that failure... it's obvious that our opinions simply differ on who that is, so I'll just leave it at that.

Your point here falls apart, again, with the Shannys doing what McNabb asked when Grossman came in. McNabb might not have "bought into the system" but the coach's job is to adjust his scheme to the talent that he has. Thats what's made coaches like Gibbs, Belichick, Shula and Parcells great: they would change things to maximize what they have on their hands. McNabb could have put in more time(but to be fair, he's NEVER been considered lazy or dumb) but the coaches, imo, are far more culpable about why the offense struggled. Especially since they effectively admitted to the same issues that McNabb saw when Rex came in.

Again there is nothing that suggests that McNabb didn't buy into the system. Asking for an adjustment in play calling is not bucking the system, it is asking for the coaches to put him in a position to have success within the scheme. There was no excuse making on the part of McNabb and in fact all of the nonsense about asking for screens etc. all came out during and after the benching. He never came to the podium and said "I am not having success because of XYZ" so lets please stop acting like this happened and it came from his agent whose job is to protect his client's marketability (Again, after the benching), which marketability was in the Shanahan's best interest to preserve as well since it wasn't working out to their satisfaction.

By all accounts the guy put the time in to learning the system. As far as believing one side so I have to accept the other side as well, um that's a big negative. The respective sides were contradicting each other's account of the events, so for me it came down to credibility and McNabb/Smith had way more credibility than The Father/Son Shanahan duo, especially when one considers the way the the Detroit game benching was explained. Had Shanny said "I was pissed about that INT and decided to bench him", I may have a different view, but Kyle flat out denying that McNabb asked for adjustments in the play calling let me know he was FOS, just like his Daddy.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 10:48 AM
exactly correct !! it says a huge message when a team is unafraid to trade it's starting QB to one of it's main rivals

http://www.dallasredskins.com/multimedia/jurgenson.jpg

Keino
04-20-2011, 10:49 AM
exactly correct !! it says a huge message when a team is unafraid to trade it's starting QB to one of it's main rivals

And our inability to trade him now for value has everything to do with showing our hand at the end of last season, a concept you specifically dismissed out of hand as being insignificant. I believe the word you used when I advanced that argument was "Ridiculous". How's that looking today?

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 10:51 AM
Your point here falls apart, again, with the Shannys doing what McNabb asked when Grossman came in. McNabb might not have "bought into the system" but the coach's job is to adjust his scheme to the talent that he has. Thats what's made coaches like Gibbs, Belichick, Shula and Parcells great: they would change things to maximize what they have on their hands. McNabb could have put in more time(but to be fair, he's NEVER been considered lazy or dumb) but the coaches, imo, are far more culpable about why the offense struggled. Especially since they effectively admitted to the same issues that McNabb saw when Rex came in.

So the coaching staff adjusted the playbook for Grossman's skills, but not to McNabb's? What would be the purpose of this? It seems that the whole argument assumes some kind of conspiracy to make McNabb fail. It makes no sense. I think the coaching staff was asking McNabb to play within his skillset, but he simply wasn't executing. Shannahan went to the point of sounding like a complete fool in press conferences in order to cover for the fact that McNabb just couldn't get aligned with what they were trying to do.

All that matters is that th McNabb experiment is OVER, and that we really need a QB.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 10:54 AM
So the coaching staff adjusted the playbook for Grossman's skills, but not to McNabb's? What would be the purpose of this? It seems that the whole argument assumes some kind of conspiracy to make McNabb fail. It makes no sense. I think the coaching staff was asking McNabb to play within his skillset, but he simply wasn't executing. Shannahan went to the point of sounding like a complete fool in press conferences in order to cover for the fact that McNabb just couldn't get aligned with what they were trying to do.

Kyle Shanny never wanted McNabb(which was reported), didn't like McNabb during the season and was trying to bench him from the start(also reported) and wanted Rex to start and ultimately was more than happy to not to do anything to help out McNabb. Hell, he benched McNabb after McNabb led the team down to a TD on 4th down with 7 seconds remaining to nominally tie up a game, so this isn't about performance.

Keino
04-20-2011, 10:55 AM
So the coaching staff adjusted the playbook for Grossman's skills, but not to McNabb's? What would be the purpose of this? It seems that the whole argument assumes some kind of conspiracy to make McNabb fail. It makes no sense. I think the coaching staff was asking McNabb to play within his skillset, but he simply wasn't executing. Shannahan went to the point of sounding like a complete fool in press conferences in order to cover for the fact that McNabb just couldn't get aligned with what they were trying to do.

All that matters is that th McNabb experiment is OVER, and that we really need a QB.

When you consider that Kyle wanted Rex to be his starter from day 1, that he was his roommate in Texas, that they star in Gay movies together (Okay I made that up), that Kyle was against getting McNabb in the first place, it does sort of make sense that Kyle was unwilling to make adjustments for McNabb that he made for Rex. That and he HAD to make those adjustments because Rex lacked McNabb's ability to avoid and make rushers miss....bad hammy and all.

shally
04-20-2011, 10:57 AM
And our inability to trade him now for value has everything to do with showing our hand at the end of last season, a concept you specifically dismissed out of hand as being insignificant. I believe the word you used when I advanced that argument was "Ridiculous". How's that looking today?

i dont see any indication that the Vikes or anyone else have lowered what they will pay in trade for McNabb.. it is total speculation on your part

what will determine what the Redskins get for McNabb is what a year's worth of film shows. THAT is what other personnel men will use to determine his worth

besides, right now he is ON the roster and conceivably, he and Shanahan reach an accomodation that leads to us drafting a QB and McNabb staying on to mentor him

shally
04-20-2011, 10:59 AM
http://www.dallasredskins.com/multimedia/jurgenson.jpg

i lived in Philly for a number of years and was on the team of Docs who took care of the Eagles for decades.. i can tell you there was much more than on field performance that drove that trade

and that was several lifetimes ago in the NFL

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 11:02 AM
i lived in Philly for a number of years and was on the team of Docs who took care of the Eagles for decades.. i can tell you there was much more than on field performance that drove that trade

and that was several lifetimes ago in the NFL

I don't think it was play that provoked the Iggles to deal McNabb. They were being pushed by Kolb's agent primarly and didn't want to give McNabb any extention--but they have a history of dumping salary weight regardless of whether it hurts them talentwise.

In any event, the skins shouldn't have dealt for him if the offensive coordinator didn't want him. That was the problem and why McNabb is leaving.

shally
04-20-2011, 11:03 AM
I don't think it was play that provoked the Iggles to deal McNabb. They were being pushed by Kolb's agent primarly and didn't want to give McNabb any extention--but they have a history of dumping salary weight regardless of whether it hurts them talentwise.

In any event, the skins shouldn't have dealt for him if the offensive coordinator didn't want him. That was the problem and why McNabb is leaving.

TOTALLY agree with you.. WTF were they thinking ??

Keino
04-20-2011, 11:04 AM
i dont see any indication that the Vikes or anyone else have lowered what they will pay in trade for McNabb.. it is total speculation on your part

what will determine what the Redskins get for McNabb is what a year's worth of film shows. THAT is what other personnel men will use to determine his worth

besides, right now he is ON the roster and conceivably, he and Shanahan reach an accomodation that leads to us drafting a QB and McNabb staying on to mentor him

So the quote posted earlier in the thread indicating that a NFL personnel man indicated that they won't pay the Skins asking price because they showed their hand is pure speculation on my part? (See the 2nd post in the thread)

What's next, is saying that the first round of the draft will be next Thursday also speculation on my part?

You're telling me that a guy passing for 4000 yards on a team where the offensive line is a glaring weakness wouldn't make NFL personnel men pay decent value for that? Get real dude.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 11:05 AM
TOTALLY agree with you.. WTF were they thinking ??

This falls entirely on Mike Shanahan not listening to his son or not taking him seriously(or not asking him before he made the move).

Now what will bake your cookie is if the skins take a QB early next week, everyone will be wondering the same thing: is this who Kyle Shanahan wants or how long before he gets benched because Kyle didn't want him. Frankly, Mike should fire his son the day he deals McNabb.

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 11:07 AM
Kyle Shanny never wanted McNabb(which was reported), didn't like McNabb during the season and was trying to bench him from the start(also reported) and wanted Rex to start and ultimately was more than happy to not to do anything to help out McNabb. Hell, he benched McNabb after McNabb led the team down to a TD on 4th down with 7 seconds remaining to nominally tie up a game, so this isn't about performance.

So, yes, a conspiracy. I don't believe it.

Keino
04-20-2011, 11:08 AM
So, yes, a conspiracy. I don't believe it.

What report don't you believe? I thought if I accepted one side I had to accept it all?

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 11:08 AM
So, yes, a conspiracy. I don't believe it.

A conspiracy requires more than one person. And I don't care whether you believe it or not. The reporting on all this was out there long before McNabb was benched. And McNabb was benched after doing his job.

But feel free to believe whatever you want to.

What report don't you believe? I thought if I accepted one side I had to accept it all?

Clearly the parts that undermine what he wants to believe lol.

shally
04-20-2011, 11:09 AM
So the quote posted earlier in the thread indicating that a NFL personnel man indicated that they won't pay the Skins asking price because they showed their hand is pure speculation on my part? (See the 2nd post in the thread)

What's next, is saying that the first round of the draft will be next Thursday also speculation on my part?

Your telling me that a guy passing for 4000 yards on a team where the offensive line is a glaring weakness wouldn't make NFL personnel men pay decent value for that? Get real dude.

No, you can get real, dude..

if McNabb's 4000 yard performance behind as suspect line was so great, the personnel men should be lining up in droves to trade for him.. is that so ?? maybe it is because there were other factors to consider including
McNabb's age and physical deterioration that might drive compensation.

the Skins dont HAVE to trade McNabb. Snyder has shown willingness to spend dollars and paying McNabb 12 million for the upcoming season is doable without a cap..again, i could see McNabb on the roster, and starting in September despite all the hoopla

FunBunch5
04-20-2011, 11:09 AM
This falls entirely on Mike Shanahan not listening to his son or not taking him seriously(or not asking him before he made the move).

Now what will bake your cookie is if the skins take a QB early next week, everyone will be wondering the same thing: is this who Kyle Shanahan wants or how long before he gets benched because Kyle didn't want him. Frankly, Mike should fire his son the day he deals McNabb.

+1

Unfortunately that will never happen.

shally
04-20-2011, 11:10 AM
This falls entirely on Mike Shanahan not listening to his son or not taking him seriously(or not asking him before he made the move).

Now what will bake your cookie is if the skins take a QB early next week, everyone will be wondering the same thing: is this who Kyle Shanahan wants or how long before he gets benched because Kyle didn't want him. Frankly, Mike should fire his son the day he deals McNabb.

that wont happen, and you know it

Mike and Kyle are joined at the hip and will either succeed or fail together

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 11:11 AM
+1

Unfortunately that will never happen.

Agreed now. And Kyle becomes Gregg Williams 2.0: undermines his coach since the coach is giving him free reign.

shally
04-20-2011, 11:12 AM
Agreed now. And Kyle becomes Gregg Williams 2.0: undermines his coach since the coach is giving him free reign.

then the Shanahans might be out of here sooner than anyone thinks...

Keino
04-20-2011, 11:14 AM
Nobody lines up in droves to pay for a guy that the team currently in possession of doesn't want. Buy low and sell high is what competent front offices do. That and there are a limited number of starting QB jobs. If a team has an investment in a younger QB, they are not going out buying 36 year old QBs who is still effective, especially if they don't have the surrounding parts. The Vikes and the other teams with a need will simply wait us out and then sign him as a free agent thereby keeping any compensation. Are you this married to your position that you refuse to see that? Are you going to just ignore an NFL Personnel man saying this very thing essentially?

By benching him we told the entire league that we don't want him. You get maximum value in trades when teams believe you actually value what you are giving up. That's pretty common sensical to me.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 11:14 AM
then the Shanahans might be out of here sooner than anyone thinks...

As much as I was in favor of Mike coming in here, if he's going to let his son run things and undermine him, maybe they both should go(or Mike becomes the GM only).

shally
04-20-2011, 11:19 AM
Nobody lines up in droves to pay for a guy that the team currently in possession of doesn't want. Buy low and sell high is what competent front offices do. That and there are a limited number of starting QB jobs. If a team has an investment in a younger QB, they are not going out buying 36 year old QBs who is still effective, especially if they don't have the surrounding parts. The Vikes and the other teams with a need will simply wait us out and then sign him as a free agent thereby keeping any compensation. Are you this married to your position that you refuse to see that? Are you going to just ignore an NFL Personnel man saying this very thing essentially?

By benching him we told the entire league that we don't want him. You get maximum value in trades when teams believe you actually value what you are giving up. That's pretty common sensical to me.

there is so much dis-information out there i would not trust anything reported.. personnel men make errors constantly, that is why player evaluations are so speculative and inconsistent

again, if the Vikes wait us out, keep McNabb on the roster

edit: and what is the value of a 36 year old QB anyway ?? the fact that we grossly overpaid for him does not mean other teams are going to repeat our folly

shally
04-20-2011, 11:22 AM
As much as I was in favor of Mike coming in here, if he's going to let his son run things and undermine him, maybe they both should go(or Mike becomes the GM only).

we just finished year ONE.. let's see if the Shanahans learned anything from last years debacle.. if they have another cl*****k this year, i will climb on board saying they need to go

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 11:30 AM
What report don't you believe? I thought if I accepted one side I had to accept it all?

I never heard a report about a conspiracy. I never heard a report tha our OC went out of his way to ensure that McNabb (and thereby the team) failed. If I heard such a report, I would hope that it be followed by a report that the OC was fired. I just really, really don't think that is how it went down.

Here is what has been reported, and what I suggest should be taken as a whole and not in pieces:

McNabb asked for more screens.
The Shannys were not happy with McNabb's knowledge of the offense.
The HC covered up the reasons for benching McNabb with some really lame excuses and later admitted to doing so to protect the player from the media.
McNabb complained about the coaching staff through his agent and supported his agents comments.

I am not saying McNabb is a bad guy... by all accounts he is a good person. He did not do a good job of playing QB for the Redskins last season, and there can be no arguing that.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 11:36 AM
I never heard a report about a conspiracy. I never heard a report tha our OC went out of his way to ensure that McNabb (and thereby the team) failed. If I heard such a report, I would hope that it be followed by a report that the OC was fired. I just really, really don't think that is how it went down.

If the OC's last name was "robbins," he probably would be fired. And there were reports all throughout the early season that K-Shanny didn't like McNabb and didn't want him. The fact that they benched him for a 2 minute drill, only to see Grossman totally sh*t the bed and the coaches didn't think that they didn't do anything wrong speaks volumes.

Here is what has been reported, and what I suggest should be taken as a whole and not in pieces:

McNabb asked for more screens.
The Shannys were not happy with McNabb's knowledge of the offense.

You can stop right there. McNabb asked for more screens, the coaches weren't happy with McNabb's knowledge of the offense and the coaches did what McNabb asked for after they benched him should be proof of what was going on here. If you are bound and determined to blame McNabb and apologize for the Shanny, knock yourself out, just please don't ignore the facts.

we just finished year ONE.. let's see if the Shanahans learned anything from last years debacle.. if they have another cl*****k this year, i will climb on board saying they need to go

We'll know after next weekend.

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 11:43 AM
If the OC's last name was "robbins," he probably would be fired. And there were reports all throughout the early season that K-Shanny didn't like McNabb and didn't want him. The fact that they benched him for a 2 minute drill, only to see Grossman totally sh*t the bed and the coaches didn't think that they didn't do anything wrong speaks volumes.



You can stop right there. McNabb asked for more screens, the coaches weren't happy with McNabb's knowledge of the offense and the coaches did what McNabb asked for after they benched him should be proof of what was going on here. If you are bound and determined to blame McNabb and apologize for the Shanny, knock yourself out, just please don't ignore the facts.



We'll know after next weekend.

Seriously, what facts am I ignoring? Where is the evidence that Kyle Shannahan went out of his way to ensure that his offense failed so that he could change QBs? It makes absolutely no sense.

I am not in the business of apologizing for the HC. He made plenty of mistakes, and bringing McNabb in here was his biggest.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 11:47 AM
Seriously, what facts am I ignoring? Where is the evidence that Kyle Shannahan went out of his way to ensure that his offense failed so that he could change QBs? It makes absolutely no sense.

I am not in the business of apologizing for the HC. He made plenty of mistakes, and bringing McNabb in here was his biggest.

I didn't say that he went out of his way to spike McNabb, the fact that he instituted the changes McNabb was asking for shows that he's either:
1-A moron who suddenly had a rush of blood to the brain
2-Wasn't going to help McNabb at all.

That+the early reports that Kyle Shanahan didn't want him in the first place and wanted to bench him early=that Kyle wasn't dealing with McNabb honestly. And as much as McNabb failed, Kyle's failures hurt the team more. McNabb clearly can still play, but he(or any QB) can't play when the OC won't lift a finger to help him and won't do anything to help the offense because he wants the backup in.

Keino
04-20-2011, 11:48 AM
there is so much dis-information out there i would not trust anything reported.. personnel men make errors constantly, that is why player evaluations are so speculative and inconsistent

again, if the Vikes wait us out, keep McNabb on the roster

edit: and what is the value of a 36 year old QB anyway ?? the fact that we grossly overpaid for him does not mean other teams are going to repeat our folly

So a league guy saying that he won't pay full value due to the Skins tipping their hand (and opining that no other team will either) is dis-information?

Do you think that McNabb is going to be on the roster this fall? (I am not asking if it is possible, I am asking if you think it will happen)

I don't know what his value is, but it is certainly less than it would be if the league believed that we thought him valuable. What about the concept of value based on perception of value are you not understanding here? If the league thought we would keep him in the face of non-competitive offers that would drive the price up. Since the league knows we won't eat $10 Million on a player to sit the bench, there is no perception of value thereby driving the price down.

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 11:53 AM
I didn't say that he went out of his way to spike McNabb, the fact that he instituted the changes McNabb was asking for shows that he's either:
1-A moron who suddenly had a rush of blood to the brain
2-Wasn't going to help McNabb at all.

That+the early reports that Kyle Shanahan didn't want him in the first place and wanted to bench him early=that Kyle wasn't dealing with McNabb honestly. And as much as McNabb failed, Kyle's failures hurt the team more. McNabb clearly can still play, but he(or any QB) can't play when the OC won't lift a finger to help him and won't do anything to help the offense because he wants the backup in.

Semantics... If an OC doesn't lift a finger to help his QB, then he is either a moron or he is trying to fail. He's not a moron... and the whole concept that he was happy to fail so he could go with Grossman just doesn't add up.

Keino
04-20-2011, 11:55 AM
Semantics... If an OC doesn't lift a finger to help his QB, then he is either a moron or he is trying to fail. He's not a moron... and the whole concept that he was happy to fail so he could go with Grossman just doesn't add up.

Jury is out on that one. He wanted Rex Grossman to be his starter. That was reported and subsequently confirmed by his actions.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 11:56 AM
Semantics... If an OC doesn't lift a finger to help his QB, then he is either a moron or he is trying to fail. He's not a moron... and the whole concept that he was happy to fail so he could go with Grossman just doesn't add up.

This is a pointless discussion if you consider anything that contradicts your beliefs as "semantics." Just don't come crying when K-Shanny does the same to whomever the next QB is.


Jury is out on that one. He wanted Rex Grossman to be his starter. That was reported and subsequently confirmed by his actions.

I don't think it was stupidity that provoked that decision. Grossman was K-Shanny's boy. If he could make him into a good starter, it helps his resume.

justinskins
04-20-2011, 12:08 PM
(or Mike becomes the GM only).

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......... ..................

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 12:09 PM
Jury is out on that one. He wanted Rex Grossman to be his starter. That was reported and subsequently confirmed by his actions.

You're making a huge jump there. And I just don't see the logic required to get there.

If we assume Shanny Jr wanted Grossman as his starter, which was reported and I can believe is possible, you have to make the huge jump that he was willing to secretly tank the season in order to make it happen. I don't see it as plausible.

Keino
04-20-2011, 12:12 PM
You're making a huge jump there. And I just don't see the logic required to get there.

If we assume Shanny Jr wanted Grossman as his starter, which was reported and I can believe is possible, you have to make the huge jump that he was willing to secretly tank the season in order to make it happen. I don't see it as plausible.

No you are applying that huge leap to my statements. I don't think he tanked the season, but I do think that he wanted his boy as starter from day 1 and resented that McNabb was forced on him But he very clearly made the adjustments that McNabb asked for when Grossman was in the game. That tells me a lot.

That he wanted Grossman to start is what makes me think him a moron.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 12:13 PM
You're making a huge jump there. And I just don't see the logic required to get there.

If we assume Shanny Jr wanted Grossman as his starter, which was reported and I can believe is possible, you have to make the huge jump that he was willing to secretly tank the season in order to make it happen. I don't see it as plausible.

Considering that all the reports were that he was trying to bench McNabb early, he didn't think he had to tank the season to make it happen. He benched him early in the season in Detroit, and despite Grossman's God awful performance, he continued to push his father to make the change.

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 12:13 PM
Grossman was K-Shanny's boy. If he could make him into a good starter, it helps his resume.

That's just to far of a jump for me personally. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 12:15 PM
That's just to far of a jump for me personally. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Like I said: don't come crying when he does it to another QB.

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 12:22 PM
Like I said: don't come crying when he does it to another QB.

Let's just politely agree to disagree. I appreciate you all presenting your point of view and giving me something to think about. We are far apart on our thoughts on the issue and I can assure you that I won't come crying to you for any reason.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 12:28 PM
Let's just politely agree to disagree. I appreciate you all presenting your point of view and giving me something to think about.

This is my last response to you on this topic, but I doubt you've thought much about what Keino and I have been saying since we're not agreeing with you.

justinskins
04-20-2011, 12:31 PM
I agree with what Keino and Akh are saying about KS and McNabb. However, let's not absolve Shanny Sr. of any responsibility in this situation. He is an "offensive mind" and a former QB coach. Given that expertise, and that he just doesn't seem like a guy who delegates authority easily, and that he had invested a 2nd round pick (and more) for McNabb, I believe he was paying careful attention to the QB situation all season long. If McNabb wanted to adjust the offense and MS believed he had good ideas, MS would have made his son do it. And he would have known if his son promised to do it and didn't do it.

As much as KS disliked McNabb from the beginning, I think MS soured on what he perceived as deficiencies in McNabb's work ethic. Some of his comments about McNabb as the season dragged on hinted at Shanny's feelings about him. So I very much believe that MS was part of the decision-making at QB the entire time.

Some people think it's courageous of Shanny to admit he made a mistake with the McNabb trade and cut his losses. Beyond the fact that the mistake he tacitly admitted was a colossal one and maybe an unforgivable one (the waste of a high draft pick for an aging player), he compounded it by benching McNabb and sinking his future trade value. That's not exactly a mark of genius as a manager of player acquisitions.

What this team needs is a real GM and a head coach whose ego will allow him to work under a real GM. That's what we've needed for some time, and while I wish Shanny lots of success here, he's not giving this team what it needs. As painful as it may be to have another wasted season, that may end up being the best thing if it gets him out of here sooner rather than later. Otherwise, I foresee the same thing happening under Shanny as happened under Gibbs 2.0: a string of mediocre seasons that are just good enough to give everyone hope, but inspire the coach to leave after 4-5 years without bringing a ring back to DC. (The only difference is that I believe Gibbs is a far better coach than Shanny ever was or will be.)

shally
04-20-2011, 01:01 PM
So a league guy saying that he won't pay full value due to the Skins tipping their hand (and opining that no other team will either) is dis-information?

Do you think that McNabb is going to be on the roster this fall? (I am not asking if it is possible, I am asking if you think it will happen)

I don't know what his value is, but it is certainly less than it would be if the league believed that we thought him valuable. What about the concept of value based on perception of value are you not understanding here? If the league thought we would keep him in the face of non-competitive offers that would drive the price up. Since the league knows we won't eat $10 Million on a player to sit the bench, there is no perception of value thereby driving the price down.

i have posted quite a few times here the past month that i DO think McNabb will be here next year. i think Snyder is willing to spend without limits and there is unlikely to be any cap

i believe we will draft Qb and McNabb will start and mentor him. how long ? i think it will depend upon how well the rookie progresses and whether McNabb really works at getting the playbook totally learned.

Grossman is a free agent and will be the odd man out. Beck is retained fro a year

Again, i think that McNabb's value is based far more onhis body of work last year, and not upon other factors including the bungling of the situation from a PR point of view. WE OVERPAID for him and wont get anything near for him, if we trade him.. but in the end, i dont think we will trade him and the issue will become moot

as far as what one personnel guy says, what relevance does that have to the overall situation ? he is just one voice, one opinion that could be right or wrong..

CNYSkinFan
04-20-2011, 01:01 PM
then the Shanahans might be out of here sooner than anyone thinks...
not sooner then i think :)

CNYSkinFan
04-20-2011, 01:02 PM
As much as I was in favor of Mike coming in here, if he's going to let his son run things and undermine him, maybe they both should go(or Mike becomes the GM only).
embrace the dark side.....feel its power

shally
04-20-2011, 01:03 PM
not sooner then i think :)

correction (i cant fix it for you, lol)

NOT SOONER THAN YOU WANT..

CNYSkinFan
04-20-2011, 01:08 PM
No you are applying that huge leap to my statements. I don't think he tanked the season, but I do think that he wanted his boy as starter from day 1 and resented that McNabb was forced on him But he very clearly made the adjustments that McNabb asked for when Grossman was in the game. That tells me a lot.

That he wanted Grossman to start is what makes me think him a moron.
I don't know why Redskin fans have such a hard time believing this. We only have to look to Al Saunders and Collins, Spurrier and any gator qb to see this in our own history. Sometimes coaches believe so much in their system that they covet the less talented "smart" qb over the more talented "dumb" qb. The problem here is our "smart" qb was grossman and our "dumb" qb was a perennial pro-bowler.

That is why the tru moron is K-Crap

CNYSkinFan
04-20-2011, 01:09 PM
correction (i cant fix it for you, lol)

NOT SOONER THAN YOU WANT..
I wanted it wehn Danny returned home from Japan a week after the benching....I think it will happen after this year

shally
04-20-2011, 01:15 PM
I wanted it wehn Danny returned home from Japan a week after the benching....I think it will happen after this year

i think if we have the same kind of season in 2011 as we had in 2010 it likely will

Monk4HOF
04-20-2011, 01:21 PM
This is my last response to you on this topic, but I doubt you've thought much about what Keino and I have been saying since we're not agreeing with you.

I could think all year about this topic and never come to the conclusion that you have made. Simply because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't thought about what you have said. I just simply don't see it your way. It's not a big deal, just a minor, insignificant disagreement between fans. I think the current coaching staff is competent and has the potential to turn things around. I don't think that anyone on the staff wanted McNabb to fail, much less tried to make it happen. I don't think they will do that to any future QB. I guess only time will tell.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 01:26 PM
i think if we have the same kind of season in 2011 as we had in 2010 it likely will

I don't know. It would have to Zorn-esque for Shanny's job(and without injuries to blame) to be in hazard. I do think that a bad season(7 or less wins) will mean that Haslett and K-Shanny will be canned.

CNYSkinFan
04-20-2011, 01:36 PM
I don't know. It would have to Zorn-esque for Shanny's job(and without injuries to blame) to be in hazard. I do think that a bad season(7 or less wins) will mean that Haslett and K-Shanny will be canned.
more likely Allenhan will use the labor situaation for the second straight year as the reason why they could not get the talent in they wanted.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 01:44 PM
more likely Allenhan will use the labor situaation for the second straight year as the reason why they could not get the talent in they wanted.

That would depend on the window for them to get talent, but thats plausible. I still think that a subpar season would mean a scrambling of both staffs to save Shanny for a couple more seasons.

shally
04-20-2011, 02:17 PM
I don't know. It would have to Zorn-esque for Shanny's job(and without injuries to blame) to be in hazard. I do think that a bad season(7 or less wins) will mean that Haslett and K-Shanny will be canned.
thrown under the bus to save Mike perhaps ??

more likely Allenhan will use the labor situaation for the second straight year as the reason why they could not get the talent in they wanted.

i dont think that excuse will hold up

That would depend on the window for them to get talent, but thats plausible. I still think that a subpar season would mean a scrambling of both staffs to save Shanny for a couple more seasons.

1 more year at most after a below .500 2011

GenMgr
04-20-2011, 03:04 PM
Don't be surprised if Kolb ends up in Minny before McNabb.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 03:22 PM
1 more year at most after a below .500 2011

Maybe, probably.

Don't be surprised if Kolb ends up in Minny before McNabb.

Thats possible, but the Eagles are asking for a 1st(or a 2nd and more) for him and Kolb wants a top 12 QB contract.

Keino
04-20-2011, 03:30 PM
thrown under the bus to save Mike perhaps ??



i dont think that excuse will hold up



1 more year at most after a below .500 2011

See for me, I would accept multiple seasons under 500 if they were actually rebuilding, but that doesn't appear to be what's happening.

CNYSkinFan
04-20-2011, 03:50 PM
See for me, I would accept multiple seasons under 500 if they were actually rebuilding, but that doesn't appear to be what's happening.
That has been my argument all along. Many posters want to give Shanny the benefit of the doubt by saying it takes years to rebuild from Cerrrato...adn I agree. However Shanny is not trying to rebuikld, hie is trying to win now by bringing in old players to act as depth and not focusing on the draft to rebuild long term.

So I grade Shanny on what he was trying to accomplish, a playoff season, last year. In that case it was an epic fail.

silverspring
04-20-2011, 04:12 PM
See for me, I would accept multiple seasons under 500 if they were actually rebuilding, but that doesn't appear to be what's happening.

+1

You hit on the heart of the matter.

HanburgerBum
04-20-2011, 07:37 PM
maybe. Shanahan can be stubborn in holding out for what he wants in trade


Shanahan can certainly be stubborn, but I don't believe he will be steadfast when he is dealing from a position of weakness. MS did best Gibbs in the Portis-Bailey trade--there is no way the Skins should have forked over a 2nd rounder in what should have been a one-for-one deal. But, Shanahan had the high ground then, because Bailey had already publicly burned his bridge in Wash.

This time, MS has a really really weak hand. I think Keino is right that every team in the NFL knows that Wash has no choice but to trade (or release) McNabb. I know you stated in a later post that you think MS will be on the roster and start this season. In view of what Kyle S thinks of McNabb and how the team thoroughly embarrassed MS last season, I just don't see how that can possibly happen.

HanburgerBum
04-20-2011, 07:44 PM
IMO, whether we draft a QB or not, it would probably be worth more to the team to keep McNabb for another year or two than get a 4th-round pick. If we don't draft someone, we need a starter; if we do draft someone, I wouldn't want to throw him behind our line right at the beginning of his career.

A few months ago, I thought there was no way McNabb stays. With the shortened offseason, maybe there's a chance.... Probably still more likely that he goes to the Vikes. But if I were Shanny I'd probably pay his bonus, kiss his butt a little bit and talk him into staying.


Sorry, but I don't agree.

It may be a good idea to keep McNabb around for a while as the starting QB if the team was a contender (or even a semi-contender). But, this team is not anywhere close to being a playoff team. So, keeping McNabb around in a strained marriage really serves no purpose.

It would make much more sense to take a 4th rounder for him. It is high time this organization understands that while 4th rounders don't often become quality pros, some do. This team needs to reverse the practice of just throwing away 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders for aging players and start hoarding these draft choices.

HanburgerBum
04-20-2011, 07:57 PM
Not sure how much stock I put it that, it's hard to imagine a situation where either Shanhan talks to a reporter and says "yeah Kyle was against trading for McNabb" or "Yeah I was against trading for McNabb" Or even a situation where someone who knows either of them that well that they would feel comfortable letting that nugget slip, who actually heard them say that, and then informed the media of it.

I do know that the media loves to mask speculation inside of "anonymous sources" and I know for a fact that those anonymous sources don't always end up being remotely qualified or knowledgeable.

I can't imagine why Mike Shanahan would trade for a QB that his OC doesn't want... Unless someone else was the one pushing for McNabb...

I can imagine a situation where a certain someone; refused to give up the idea that the team could "win now" and then maybe pushed for McNabb. Perhaps with the understanding that if it didn't work, they would try things Mike's way and rebuild... But then I've voiced this "tin foil hat" theory before. Sure does make a lot of head scratching puzzle pieces fall into place.



True, you can't believe in everything you read in a newspaper. But, in this instance, I think there is just too much smoke not to think there is actually a fire. After the WashPost article came out, K Shanahan did refute it. But, it was such a weak attempt I don't think anyone believed him.

Why did Mike Shanahan trade for McNabb when his son was against the move? My guess is that MS was delusional. Despite spending many hours pouring over the films of the 2009 Redskins season, he somehow came to the conclusion that the team could "win now" if it just had a competent QB (MS obviously was not a fan of Jason Campbell). The truth is Kyle was much smarter than his dad in this regard.

I don't know if you are suggesting that Dan Snyder was the driving force behind the McNabb trade. I seriously doubt it. Snyder had been widely criticized for interfering in personnel decisions. I think he would have been reluctant to do so with a big-name head coach like MS. Further, I doubt Shanahan would have even taken the job if he didn't have assurance that he would be in charge of football decisions.

HanburgerBum
04-20-2011, 08:24 PM
So, yes, a conspiracy. I don't believe it.


I am with you. I find it utterly incredible that Kyle Shanahan was the perpetrator or a participant of a conspiracy to deliberately create conditions that would make it difficult for McNabb to perform well. To believe that, one would have to believe that Kyle Shanahan is a man totally without integrity.

Further, if the starting QB (McNabb) failed, the team would naturally fail. How does that benefit Kyle Shanahan? How does that enhance KS's resume?

I do believe KS was against the DM deal and probably did prefer Grossman as his starter. So, one can argue that KS's "heart was not in". But, that is a far cry from Kyle delibertely trying to cause McNabb to fail.

I wish a few more screen passes to the RB would have been all that was needed to allow McNabb to have a winning season. But, I think the truth is that Kyle was actually the smart one. The McNabb trade was a terrible move for a team that needed major rebuilding.

justinskins
04-20-2011, 08:45 PM
It would make much more sense to take a 4th rounder for him. It is high time this organization understands that while 4th rounders don't often become quality pros, some do. This team needs to reverse the practice of just throwing away 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders for aging players and start hoarding these draft choices.

BUT... it would be a 2012 4th-round pick, since there's no way a CBA will be done in the next week. Which means we could get another season out of McNabb, use his valuable experience to help stabilize the team and possibly bring up a young QB--and still end up with the same 4th-round pick after a season's use. In fact, his value is likely to increase if we actually play him for a season and pretend that we like him. Unless he gets seriously injured (always a possibility but doesn't seem particularly likely), I don't think his value will go down.

BigCountry
04-20-2011, 08:56 PM
BUT... it would be a 2012 4th-round pick, since there's no way a CBA will be done in the next week. Which means we could get another season out of McNabb, use his valuable experience to help stabilize the team and possibly bring up a young QB--and still end up with the same 4th-round pick after a season's use. In fact, his value is likely to increase if we actually play him for a season and pretend that we like him. Unless he gets seriously injured (always a possibility but doesn't seem particularly likely), I don't think his value will go down.

I think they just deal him for a pick next year after a CBA is reached or release him if they can't. I doubt he plays another down for the Redskins.

justinskins
04-20-2011, 08:58 PM
I think they just deal him for a pick next year after a CBA is reached or release him if they can't. I doubt he plays another down for the Redskins.

I agree. But that's not what I would do if I were in charge of this team...

BigCountry
04-20-2011, 09:00 PM
I agree. But that's not what I would do if I were in charge of this team...

Of course you wouldn't because he probably wouldn't have been on the team to begin with.

justinskins
04-20-2011, 09:07 PM
Of course you wouldn't because he probably wouldn't have been on the team to begin with.

LOL. Well, he might have. I thought the McNabb trade was a good idea at the time. Although I probably would have actually, you know, watched some film on him and talked to people who had coached him before. So that I had some idea whether or not he could run the offense I wanted to run, and whether or not his work ethic was up to my standards. Just a thought.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 09:12 PM
LOL. Well, he might have. I thought the McNabb trade was a good idea at the time. Although I probably would have actually, you know, watched some film on him and talked to people who had coached him before. So that I had some idea whether or not he could run the offense I wanted to run, and whether or not his work ethic was up to my standards. Just a thought.

If I was the GM, I would have dragged McNabb and both Shanahans into the office at the first reports of trouble and told them that they all hang together.

justinskins
04-20-2011, 09:20 PM
If I was the GM, I would have dragged McNabb and both Shanahans into the office at the first reports of trouble and told them that they all hang together.

Well, I'm sure Bruce Allen thought long and hard about doing that over a game of golf.

akhhorus
04-20-2011, 09:33 PM
Well, I'm sure Bruce Allen thought long and hard about doing that over a game of golf.

I have about as much authority as Allen does. Shanny makes all the decisions.

colkurtz
04-21-2011, 01:11 AM
I always thought that McKnabb was brought here to be the mentor for the next drafted QB. He did it with Vick and really brought him around quickly. As for the 2010 I thought he was brought in to bring up the level of play at QB so that other offensive players could be evaluated after the season. I don't look at McKnabb as a symptom of "win now" disease that has infected this team since Snyder bought it

WHEN they draft a QB in this draft, who is going to be the teacher, mentor, watch-me-do-it? Grossman? No way. I agree with Shally that McKnabb may play here this season if we don't get a decent trade for him. I'd be surprised if Shannihan and Allen take less than a 4th rounder.

McKnabb was on the way to a 4000 yd season, with a sucking chest wound in the center of the OL, a weak WR corps and an average at best RB situation. He had a below average season for himself. If we trade him I'm interested as to who we bring in as the mentor QB, with what is available out there now at veteran QB.

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 07:39 AM
It is way more likely Grossman is taking snaps onopening day then McNabb. Shanford and Son simultaneously destroyed his trade value and their relationship with him by benching him the last three games of the season. McNabb has said all the right things, But I guarantee you if we reach training camp this situation will make the haynesworth drama look like small mpotatos

shally
04-21-2011, 08:02 AM
If I was the GM, I would have dragged McNabb and both Shanahans into the office at the first reports of trouble and told them that they all hang together.

how did that work out in Tennessee ?

akhhorus
04-21-2011, 08:05 AM
how did that work out in Tennessee ?

Apples and bowling balls. The owner was in love with the QB, the Qb was a major head case and both are gone now.

GenMgr
04-21-2011, 11:05 AM
McNabb will be cut as soon as Minnesota decides its QB situation, either through trade (Kolb), FA, or draft (Locker, Dalton)

dj_stouty
04-21-2011, 11:14 AM
Lots of blame to spread around regarding McNabb's low trade value - including himself. He did himself no favors throwing a career high 15 INTs and skipping balls on throws your high school QB should make.

The guy is turning 36 this year and his skills appear to be diminishing. What type of value did you expect to get for him in the first place?

shally
04-21-2011, 11:22 AM
Lots of blame to spread around regarding McNabb's low trade value - including himself. He did himself no favors throwing a career high 15 INTs and skipping balls on throws your high school QB should make.

The guy is turning 36 this year and his skills appear to be diminishing. What type of value did you expect to get for him in the first place?

+1

intrinsic value of the player trumps side issues every day of the week.. the circus around mcnabb last year did no party a favor, but ultimately mcnabb is what he is and THAT is what will drive his trade value

akhhorus
04-21-2011, 11:24 AM
+1

intrinsic value of the player trumps side issues every day of the week.. the circus around mcnabb last year did no party a favor, but ultimately mcnabb is what he is and THAT is what will drive his trade value

Yes, but his value will always be relative to the market for vet Qbs this offseason.

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 11:28 AM
Lots of blame to spread around regarding McNabb's low trade value - including himself. He did himself no favors throwing a career high 15 INTs and skipping balls on throws your high school QB should make.

The guy is turning 36 this year and his skills appear to be diminishing. What type of value did you expect to get for him in the first place?

+1

intrinsic value of the player trumps side issues every day of the week.. the circus around mcnabb last year did no party a favor, but ultimately mcnabb is what he is and THAT is what will drive his trade value

I disagree, McNabb, in most non-redskin fans views, is still a decent qb in this league. what will drive his value down is what drove his value down in Philly, the need of the owning organization to make a move. If we had kept McNabb and kept a lid on the drama, played him the last three games and looked for a trade partner I bet The vikings, who desperately need a vet qb as their window is shrinking, would give up a third. possibly future 2nd.

Our biggest problem is thaere is no other Front Office out there as inept as us, so we can't pick on anyone.

shally
04-21-2011, 12:06 PM
I disagree, McNabb, in most non-redskin fans views, is still a decent qb in this league. what will drive his value down is what drove his value down in Philly, the need of the owning organization to make a move. If we had kept McNabb and kept a lid on the drama, played him the last three games and looked for a trade partner I bet The vikings, who desperately need a vet qb as their window is shrinking, would give up a third. possibly future 2nd.

Our biggest problem is thaere is no other Front Office out there as inept as us, so we can't pick on anyone.

nonsense. we dont have to trade McNabb at all. Snyder will pay his salary to be a mentor, if needed

McNabb is a solid citizen and wont be a locker room problem the way Haynesworth was

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 12:30 PM
nonsense. we dont have to trade McNabb at all. Snyder will pay his salary to be a mentor, if needed

McNabb is a solid citizen and wont be a locker room problem the way Haynesworth was
if they were so inclined to do so. Donovan is a great qb with high character, but he isn't a saint. Heck even St. Peter would be running to the press demanding a trade if that happened. I really don't care if you believe this by now Shally....but as reported several times in the media that nfl execs are waiting the Redskins out knowing they have to trade or release Donovan.

And once again i mention that the Redskins are no longer the first pick of FAs out there because of examples of how we treat players who come here. McNabb is well respected in the league, if we treat him unfairly and dont trade/release him early it will have a big effect on our FA desire. more players will demand front loaded contracts because they see how we treat other players.

dj_stouty
04-21-2011, 12:42 PM
And once again i mention that the Redskins are no longer the first pick of FAs out there because of examples of how we treat players who come here.

That is a load of crappola! Your argument could have been made every offseason for a full decade, yet top flight Free Agents still come here year after year. This business is all about the money and Danny has a lot of it. First and foremost, that will continue to drive the attractiveness of being a Redskin.

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 01:29 PM
That is a load of crappola! Your argument could have been made every offseason for a full decade, yet top flight Free Agents still come here year after year. This business is all about the money and Danny has a lot of it. First and foremost, that will continue to drive the attractiveness of being a Redskin.
A.) Look at how we are bent over on the Haynesworth cntract. Sure they will come here but not at a discount and only with major guarantees upfront

B.) when is the last time you heard of any non redskin taking less money to come to dc?

c.) Besides Haynesworth who a out of the last 5 free agencies did we get that was any good or the jewel of the class?

GenMgr
04-21-2011, 01:34 PM
nonsense. we dont have to trade McNabb at all. Snyder will pay his salary to be a mentor, if needed

McNabb is a solid citizen and wont be a locker room problem the way Haynesworth was

I'm actually hearing quite differently from those close to the team that he didn't want to be coached, didn't want to reveal his health status to Shanahan, also locker room began to turn on him towards the end of the season.

Might explain why McNabb was willing to give back his 3.5 mill sal bonus to be released before the CBA ran out.

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 01:35 PM
I'm actually hearing quite differently from those close to the team that he didn't want to be coached, didn't want to reveal his health status to Shanahan, also locker room began to turn on him towards the end of the season.

Might explain why McNabb was willing to give back his 3.5 mill sal bonus to be released before the CBA ran out.
any non redskin.com sources on this?

GenMgr
04-21-2011, 01:48 PM
any non redskin.com sources on this?

I believe the Post will release this and more information as the draft gets closer

justinskins
04-21-2011, 01:49 PM
That is a load of crappola! Your argument could have been made every offseason for a full decade, yet top flight Free Agents still come here year after year. This business is all about the money and Danny has a lot of it. First and foremost, that will continue to drive the attractiveness of being a Redskin.

I wouldn't say we attract "top flight" Free Agents. We attract the guys looking for an easy payday. That seems to be one thing that is changing under Allehan. But what we need is to become a team that attracts guys who want to win (like the Pats).

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 01:51 PM
I believe the Post will release this and more information as the draft gets closer
So Ms. Cleo is your source?

http://ponderingsfrompluto.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/miss-cleo.jpg

shally
04-21-2011, 02:02 PM
if they were so inclined to do so. Donovan is a great qb with high character, but he isn't a saint. Heck even St. Peter would be running to the press demanding a trade if that happened. I really don't care if you believe this by now Shally....but as reported several times in the media that nfl execs are waiting the Redskins out knowing they have to trade or release Donovan.

And once again i mention that the Redskins are no longer the first pick of FAs out there because of examples of how we treat players who come here. McNabb is well respected in the league, if we treat him unfairly and dont trade/release him early it will have a big effect on our FA desire. more players will demand front loaded contracts because they see how we treat other players.

where is said by anyone in the organization that they "have" to trade McNabb ?
that is all stuff by people who are likely long time Redskin haters
they dont have to do any such thing. once the lockout ends, he will report and be a team player, if they dont chose to trade him.. or he can buy himself out.. or the team will trade him

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 02:14 PM
where is said by anyone in the organization that they "have" to trade McNabb ?
that is all stuff by people who are likely long time Redskin haters
they dont have to do any such thing. once the lockout ends, he will report and be a team player, if they dont chose to trade him.. or he can buy himself out.. or the team will trade him
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a66YWasb0Bc/RtHgArH8NhI/AAAAAAAABsU/e2dTXIk9qvU/s400/Kool-AidMan.jpg

shally
04-21-2011, 02:25 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a66YWasb0Bc/RtHgArH8NhI/AAAAAAAABsU/e2dTXIk9qvU/s400/Kool-AidMan.jpg

So, if you dont like the Head Coach and his OC, and you dont like the Owner, and you dont like the GM, and you dont like the QB situation, and you have little faith in the organization to correct things, will you even bother watching the Skins this season ? if so, why ?

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 02:44 PM
So, if you dont like the Head Coach and his OC, and you dont like the Owner, and you dont like the GM, and you dont like the QB situation, and you have little faith in the organization to correct things, will you even bother watching the Skins this season ? if so, why ?
because I am a masochist

Keino
04-21-2011, 02:53 PM
So, if you dont like the Head Coach and his OC, and you dont like the Owner, and you dont like the GM, and you dont like the QB situation, and you have little faith in the organization to correct things, will you even bother watching the Skins this season ? if so, why ?

All of this is true for me except that I only mildly dislike the HC, and I can tell you the answer for me is that I was a Redskins fan long before any of these clowns were affiliated with the team in any official capacity.

But the notion that McNabb will be on our roster and that the Shanahans will make-up and play nice with him is a pipe dream.

Monk4HOF
04-21-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm actually hearing quite differently from those close to the team that he didn't want to be coached, didn't want to reveal his health status to Shanahan, also locker room began to turn on him towards the end of the season.

Might explain why McNabb was willing to give back his 3.5 mill sal bonus to be released before the CBA ran out.

That would certainly explain a few other things as well. Specifically...1) why the Eagles were willing to trade him within the division 2) why deshawn Jackson was happy to see him go after having a pro bowl season with him there 3) why mcnabb had limited knowledge of his new teams playbook...

I think McNabb is a good guy and a smart QB. But I have the feeling, and it's just a hunch, that he had gotten to the point in his career where he thought he knew everything he needed to know and wasn't open to much coaching or feedback from his teammates. We'll never know all the reasons why the McNabb experiment failed, but I don't think McNabb was completely innocent in the whole debacle.

dj_stouty
04-21-2011, 03:56 PM
A.) Look at how we are bent over on the Haynesworth cntract. Sure they will come here but not at a discount and only with major guarantees upfront

B.) when is the last time you heard of any non redskin taking less money to come to dc?

c.) Besides Haynesworth who a out of the last 5 free agencies did we get that was any good or the jewel of the class?

First off, I don't see a slew of solid NFL players opting to take less to stay anywhere, let alone here. This is not a common practice in the NFL.

Secondly, i'm not talking about the "jewel of the class" - which fiscally, we couldn't even entertain that type of guy each year. I'm talking about top flight or pro-bowl caliber players choosing to come to the Redskins. How many have we signed the past few seasons? Very few...outside of Haynesworth, Atogwe and DeAngelo, but that is mainly due to our FO's love for trading for those type players. (Jason Taylor, NcNabb...etc)

Atogwe wasn't scared to come to the Redskins and he was well aware of the drama surrounded arond McNabb.

CNYSkinFan
04-21-2011, 03:59 PM
First off, I don't see a slew of solid NFL players opting to take less to stay anywhere, let alone here. This is not a common practice in the NFL.

Secondly, i'm not talking about the "jewel of the class" - which fiscally, we couldn't even entertain that type of guy each year. I'm talking about top flight or pro-bowl caliber players choosing to come to the Redskins. How many have we signed the past few seasons? Very few...outside of Haynesworth, Atogwe and DeAngelo, but that is mainly due to our FO's love for trading for those type players. (Jason Taylor, NcNabb...etc)

Atogwe wasn't scared to come to the Redskins and he was well aware of the drama surrounded arond McNabb.
I once again ask....what good players have we broguht in? It always seems to me we are bringing in the players looking for the pay day and not willing to do what it takes to win. We outbid everyone because we have to. All things being equal people want to go to winning programs.

We are raiders east.

shally
04-21-2011, 05:58 PM
because I am a masochist

me, too.... it is like seeing a woman who is so ugly, you simply cant stop looking at her..lol

shally
04-21-2011, 05:59 PM
All of this is true for me except that I only mildly dislike the HC, and I can tell you the answer for me is that I was a Redskins fan long before any of these clowns were affiliated with the team in any official capacity.

But the notion that McNabb will be on our roster and that the Shanahans will make-up and play nice with him is a pipe dream.

you get special consideration because you travel a thousand miles to suffer. i tip my hat to you

it is not that Shanahan will play nice, it is simply that he wants to get what he wants in trade and is stubborn

Keino
04-21-2011, 06:36 PM
you get special consideration because you travel a thousand miles to suffer. i tip my hat to you

it is not that Shanahan will play nice, it is simply that he wants to get what he wants in trade and is stubborn

No longer my friend. Last year was the final year of the contract and we have told the Redskins sales office to stop calling us.

I will be going to week 2 this year vs the Rams, but I am taking both of my daughters to that game. Should be a good time.

*Tickets provided by my cousin.

CNYSkinFan
04-22-2011, 01:20 PM
you get special consideration because you travel a thousand miles to suffer. i tip my hat to you

it is not that Shanahan will play nice, it is simply that he wants to get what he wants in trade and is stubborn
i used to go once a year to fed ex from NY...I think that shows my loyalty...

babies and finances have gotten away since gibbs left.

HanburgerBum
04-22-2011, 03:57 PM
BUT... it would be a 2012 4th-round pick, since there's no way a CBA will be done in the next week. Which means we could get another season out of McNabb, use his valuable experience to help stabilize the team and possibly bring up a young QB--and still end up with the same 4th-round pick after a season's use. In fact, his value is likely to increase if we actually play him for a season and pretend that we like him. Unless he gets seriously injured (always a possibility but doesn't seem particularly likely), I don't think his value will go down.


You don't think McNabb's value will go down in another year? That may be true if McNabb were in his mid-twenties. But, under your scenario, he will be 36 sometime in the football season his new team will get him. Who will pay a lot for a 36-year old?

And, as to your projecting McNabb playing and helping the team win as well as nurturing a young QB, I think that to be overly optimistic.

First, McNabb may not even be the starter, since Kyle S prefers Grossman and any drafted rookie QB is not likely to be ready. Second, a good chunk of the reason McNabb didn't have much of a 2010 season is because the Redskins don't have a good offense (starting with a woeful line) around him. What makes you think that will change dramatically for the better this season? Third, it is quite clear that McNabb has no love for the current Redskins administration. What makes you think he will go out of his way to do anything constructive? In fact, it is more likely that his sour attitude could detrimentally impact the team and any young QB.

justinskins
04-22-2011, 04:57 PM
You don't think McNabb's value will go down in another year? That may be true if McNabb were in his mid-twenties. But, under your scenario, he will be 36 sometime in the football season his new team will get him. Who will pay a lot for a 36-year old?
I think we are already at a disadvantage because we won't be able to move him before the draft. Plenty of teams that need QBs will already have a 1st- or 2nd-round picks. Better to wait a season, to see which QBs end up being this year's Jimmy Clausen. Between that, and the fact that everyone knows we haved soured on McNabb, I don't think we lose much (if anything) by keeping him another year. I'm also not sure 36 is that big a difference from 35.

Of course, all that changes if the courts magically end the lockout before the draft. Then see what we can get for him this year. Maybe we can bilk Leslie Frazier out of a 3rd.

And, as to your projecting McNabb playing and helping the team win as well as nurturing a young QB, I think that to be overly optimistic.
Maybe so. But like I said, I suspect that a nice sit-down with/apology from Big Mike Shanahan, plus his $10 million bonus, might convince him to come back to the team.

First, McNabb may not even be the starter, since Kyle S prefers Grossman and any drafted rookie QB is not likely to be ready.
If Grossman starts for us on opening day, I may have to start drinking again.

shally
04-22-2011, 07:27 PM
i used to go once a year to fed ex from NY...I think that shows my loyalty...

babies and finances have gotten away since gibbs left.

understand..3000 miles gets in the way for me..lol

Keino
04-22-2011, 07:28 PM
If Grossman is our starter next year, I will be tossing back Bloody marys as soon as I wake up on Sundays so as to be in a stupor by game time.

redskin_rich
04-22-2011, 09:37 PM
If Grossman is our starter next year, I will be tossing back Bloody marys as soon as I wake up on Sundays so as to be in a stupor by game time.
Give me a call when you get your drink made, so you won't be drinking alone.

"Players win games, coaches lose them." I don't know who said that but there is a lot of truth in that statement.

Grossman had, IMO, a season's worth of turnovers in 3 games he started. 8 to be exact. I don't care how much of a genius your coach or play-caller is or how well your QB knows his complicated system, you can't win games with a QB that averages nearly 3 turnovers per game. You don't have to be a highly regarded coach to know, even the most casual of fans can understand this.

Back to the topic, Minnesota needs McNabb. We can get fair value for him from them, whenever the labor issues get settled. They can try and wait us out but that will only hurt them, because Shanny won't cave. Shanny's stubbornness is probably one of the things I like the most about him, even if I normally despise that trait.

GenMgr
04-22-2011, 09:43 PM
If Grossman is our starter next year, I will be tossing back Bloody marys as soon as I wake up on Sundays so as to be in a stupor by game time.

How about Vince Young? :)

CNYSkinFan
04-22-2011, 10:03 PM
If Grossman is our starter next year, I will be tossing back Bloody marys as soon as I wake up on Sundays so as to be in a stupor by game time.
If grossman is out starter I may decide to start going back to church on sundays

justinskins
04-22-2011, 10:35 PM
If grossman is out starter I may decide to start going back to church on sundays

Why bother? If Grossman is the starter it will prove that there is no God.

redskin_rich
04-22-2011, 10:56 PM
Why bother? If Grossman is the starter it will prove that there is no God.
I see it the opposite way. Only through divine intervention could a financially sound and strongly supported franchise be so miserable for so long and continue as such. Furthermore, only a diety could make sure a s***heel like Snyder would continue to fail.

justinskins
04-22-2011, 11:35 PM
I see it the opposite way. Only through divine intervention could a financially sound and strongly supported franchise be so miserable for so long and continue as such. Furthermore, only a diety could make sure a s***heel like Snyder would continue to fail.

I stand corrected. I guess all Grossman starting would prove is that He is a vengeful God. And must be placated. Maybe we need sacrificial offerings?

JoeJacksonTaylor28
04-23-2011, 01:56 AM
I stand corrected. I guess all Grossman starting would prove is that He is a vengeful God. And must be placated. Maybe we need sacrificial offerings?
Casey, time to take one for the team

hail2skins
04-23-2011, 10:42 AM
So the quote posted earlier in the thread indicating that a NFL personnel man indicated that they won't pay the Skins asking price because they showed their hand is pure speculation on my part? (See the 2nd post in the thread)

What's next, is saying that the first round of the draft will be next Thursday also speculation on my part?

Your telling me that a guy passing for 4000 yards on a team where the offensive line is a glaring weakness wouldn't make NFL personnel men pay decent value for that? Get real dude.

No, you can get real, dude..

if McNabb's 4000 yard performance behind as suspect line was so great, the personnel men should be lining up in droves to trade for him.. is that so ?? maybe it is because there were other factors to consider including
McNabb's age and physical deterioration that might drive compensation.

the Skins dont HAVE to trade McNabb. Snyder has shown willingness to spend dollars and paying McNabb 12 million for the upcoming season is doable without a cap..again, i could see McNabb on the roster, and starting in September despite all the hooplaMaybe the reason they aren't lining up is because Shanny has already exposed his hand. Would you line up to trade for him knowing they'll cut him? I believe the answer to that is no.

44 goes 50 gut
04-23-2011, 01:15 PM
Maybe the reason they aren't lining up is because Shanny has already exposed his hand. Would you line up to trade for him knowing they'll cut him? I believe the answer to that is no.

I just don't buy this, if there's more than a single team interested then the "we can just wait until you cut him" approach is instantly out the window. And I'd say that's the case, with several teams needing QB's.

If they don't value McNabb enough to pay a price for him, then it's because they've looked at his tape, and who he has always been, his present age, and determined they aren't willing to pay much for him.

shally
04-23-2011, 02:22 PM
Maybe the reason they aren't lining up is because Shanny has already exposed his hand. Would you line up to trade for him knowing they'll cut him? I believe the answer to that is no.

again, the real determiner of McNabb's worth is his 2010 performance, his age, and his physical conditrion.. what is a 36 year old gimpy QB worth ?

perhaps, you and Keino are correct that Shanahan has devalued McNabb's trade value somewhat by his tactics.. but, again, we GROSSLY overpaid for his worth. the same as we did when we shipped a 3rd rounder to the Jag's for Brunell. no one else was willing to pay them that kind of pick. same thing with McNabb.. the fact that we were idiots in givng Philly a 2,6 combo is reflective of our stupidity.. no one else would likely repeat that foolishness

again, i also dont think we have to dump mcnabb. we still have the option of letting snyder pay his salary to mentor whoever we draft.. it is not the worst situation to have..

colkurtz
04-23-2011, 02:23 PM
I agree that it is possible that McKnabb may stay here but if ANY decent offer is made he will be gone. Same for AH.

I offer an alternative idea for our new QB draftee [assuming we take one]:

He starts from the beginning. Shannihan / Allen use every good FA toward the OL and WR hoping to get one or two keepers. With that logic our choice for #10 is the BPA at OT. Move our best players left into OG. Use FA to buy the best C on the market.

shally
04-23-2011, 02:23 PM
I just don't buy this, if there's more than a single team interested then the "we can just wait until you cut him" approach is instantly out the window. And I'd say that's the case, with several teams needing QB's.

If they don't value McNabb enough to pay a price for him, then it's because they've looked at his tape, and who he has always been, his present age, and determined they aren't willing to pay much for him.

right on ! you said it better than i did

shally
04-23-2011, 02:29 PM
I agree that it is possible that McKnabb may stay here but if ANY decent offer is made he will be gone. Same for AH.

I offer an alternative idea for our new QB draftee [assuming we take one]:

He starts from the beginning. Shannihan / Allen use every good FA toward the OL and WR hoping to get one or two keepers. With that logic our choice for #10 is the BPA at OT. Move our best players left into OG. Use FA to buy the best C on the market.

would work for me.. i could see us taking Constanza or Pouncy, especially if we trade back a little

colkurtz
04-23-2011, 03:10 PM
would work for me.. i could see us taking Constanza or Pouncy, especially if we trade back a little

+1. Exactly. If the Redskins us the #10 for the BPA at OT, then you have the bookends of an OL for 6-10 years. I you use your FA money to get a younger, smart but tough C, then we have enough talent left on the team to have a very good OL. The OL goes from being a liability to a plus. An improved OL makes every RB look better. Finally, the QB can be evaluated quicker since he won't have the excuse of: our "OL suxx and our QB is always running for his life" (which slowed the final decision on Ramsey and JC)....

WarEagle
04-23-2011, 10:33 PM
I think they'll play outside in Minn. this season. Not sure McNabb will thrive in those conditions...

redskin_rich
04-23-2011, 11:31 PM
I think they'll play outside in Minn. this season. Not sure McNabb will thrive in those conditions...
Playing in the NFC East isn't exactly QB friendly, as far as conditions. The temps may not get as low in December but I'm confident we deal with more rainy games. Cold weather sucks, being wet and cold is 10x worse.

44 goes 50 gut
04-24-2011, 08:24 AM
I offer an alternative idea for our new QB draftee [assuming we take one]:

He starts from the beginning. Shannihan / Allen use every good FA toward the OL and WR hoping to get one or two keepers. With that logic our choice for #10 is the BPA at OT. Move our best players left into OG. Use FA to buy the best C on the market.

In this scenario what pick are you using on the QB in the first sentence?

Not that I can't see them trying something like this, but talk is that all the so called "second tier"(*) QB's are likely to go in a "run" in the late 1st round, early second.

I think the only way this scenario has a chance is if they can find a trading partner that wants to move up ahead of the Vikings. And the only way I see that happening is in the unlikely event that a top rated pick like Gabbert(**) or Newton(***) is still there and someone wants him bad enough to move ahead of the Vikings to get him. Of course that requires the Skins to be set on a later QB and not interested in those guys themselves.

(*) Not sure why some of the second tier QB's are. as the so called top tier is not very impressive to me.
(**) Top rated why? he's comparable to most of the second round QB's IMO
(***) Top rated because sports personnel guys can never seem to get over the whole "physical freak" thing even if the guy is a multi year project (or requires the whole offense to be taylor made for him).

44 goes 50 gut
04-24-2011, 09:01 AM
I think they'll play outside in Minn. this season. Not sure McNabb will thrive in those conditions...

Will Cam? I could see him falling to the Vikings... of course I could see him falling a lot more than that depending on who's willing to take on the project or tailor their offense to him.

HanburgerBum
04-24-2011, 02:48 PM
I think we are already at a disadvantage because we won't be able to move him before the draft. Plenty of teams that need QBs will already have a 1st- or 2nd-round picks. Better to wait a season, to see which QBs end up being this year's Jimmy Clausen. Between that, and the fact that everyone knows we haved soured on McNabb, I don't think we lose much (if anything) by keeping him another year. I'm also not sure 36 is that big a difference from 35.

Of course, all that changes if the courts magically end the lockout before the draft. Then see what we can get for him this year. Maybe we can bilk Leslie Frazier out of a 3rd.


Maybe so. But like I said, I suspect that a nice sit-down with/apology from Big Mike Shanahan, plus his $10 million bonus, might convince him to come back to the team.


If Grossman starts for us on opening day, I may have to start drinking again.



A year doesn't make much difference if you are talking about a player in his mid 20's, but a year makes a big difference when it is a player going from 35 to 36.

As for bilking Leslie Frazer out of a 3rd rounder, I would say very unlikely. The only chance would be if LF doesn't come up with a QB in the draft. But, if the Skins wait a year, McNabb will be another year older and the Vikes will likely have found what they regard as the solution to its QB problem. If I am running the Redskins, I would take a 4th rounder for DM when trading starts again.

As for Wash paying DM 10 million, I don't see that happening either. I think the Redskins are not as big a cash cow as they once were. I believe plenty of luxury boxes are empty and non-sellouts of general admission seats are on the horizon. I think Dan Snyder is feeling or will feel a financial pinch.

So, my advice is get ready to hoist your drinking glass.

WarEagle
04-24-2011, 08:54 PM
Will Cam? I could see him falling to the Vikings... of course I could see him falling a lot more than that depending on who's willing to take on the project or tailor their offense to him.

I can see the icy wind buffeting the large sideline 'number signs' that he'll need to run the plays in Minny. lol.

I always thought that Minny and GB were the 2 worst weather cities to play in. NFL Films memories I guess.

What a waste McNabb was. Feels like Skins ownership got mugged by the iggles.

shally
04-24-2011, 11:01 PM
I can see the icy wind buffeting the large sideline 'number signs' that he'll need to run the plays in Minny. lol.

I always thought that Minny and GB were the 2 worst weather cities to play in. NFL Films memories I guess.

What a waste McNabb was. Feels like Skins ownership got mugged by the iggles.

a move worthy of Vinnie.. the more things change, the more they stay the same

colkurtz
04-24-2011, 11:12 PM
I don't know if any QB we draft this year can start right away, but its not like we're going to do very well anyway with rebuilding year and playing some very good teams. Find a veteran QB to show the newbie the ropes and start him later in the season when the pressure is off.

I just remember watching J. Campbell "warmup" before a home game in his first year. He was chatting with someone and never threw a single ball. He did nothing before the game. If you're that uninvolved in your first season what good is it? We waited so long to start JC that even after 5 years there was still arguments about whether we should keep him or not.

Both Sanchez and Bradford started their first season and I'd say they were doing ok with that. Will we get someone of that caliber? Doubt it. In today's NFL you get around 25-30 games to make it or break......

44 goes 50 gut
04-25-2011, 07:15 AM
a move worthy of Vinnie.. the more things change, the more they stay the same

Kinda makes you wonder how much was Vinny and how much was the little douche.