Fred Davis involved in a bizarre...well...just read

[akhhorus]

Link (http://www.washingtonian.com/blogs/capitalcomment/local-news/redskins-fred-davis-legal-mess-harassment-suit-restraining-order.php)

Oh boy.....

For the past 18 months, Washington Redskins tight end Fred Davis has been quietly engaged in a legal soap opera with a woman he knows from the nightclub scene, according to court documents and courtroom testimony.

On January 10, 2011, Makini R. Chaka, 33, filed a civil complaint against Davis after he allegedly dumped juice on her head and busted her lip at a Washington, DC, nightclub. In court documents and testimony, Chaka accused Davis of assaulting, harassing, and threatening to kill her.

Davis has denied Chaka’s claims. But while most celebrity athletes in his position would retain a high-priced lawyer, Davis has served as his own defense counsel during the case—even arguing on his own behalf at an April 10 hearing in DC Superior Court.

“It’s just all made up and flagellant,” Davis told the judge during his closing argument.

But Stewart Prince, who has worked as Davis’s bodyguard, alleged in court documents that Chaka is “a ‘madam/pimpette’ who provides escorts to high-profile athletes and entertainers.”

“It is well-known in the sports and entertainment industry, particularly in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area, that [Chaka] recruits women to work for her and provide sexual favors to athletes or other entertainer[s] in exchange for money,” Prince said in court documents. He said he knew “at least two women who [Chaka] attempted to recruit to work for her in this capacity.”



Oh, it gets weirder...

Davis suggested in court testimony that Ravens runningback Ray Rice might also be a Chaka client. “Actually the player’s name was Ray Rice,” Davis testified. “I guess he’s one of your clients, too. I don’t know.”


Chaka alleged that Davis has used his influence to blacklist her from Washington nightclubs where she arranges events. Chaka claimed that Davis once even pretended to be Redskins wide receiver Santana Moss in an effort to keep her out of a nightclub.

Chaka testified that after Davis learned she was organizing an event at DC’s Bar 7 on December 2, 2011, Davis impersonated Moss in a phone call with a Bar 7 employee, saying: “I don’t want her to be there or none of the Redskins will get tables there.

During cross-examination at the April hearing, the two armchair attorneys argued over a photograph of Chaka, a woman, and two men:

Davis: “As it shows, you also have your hand on his genitals. I mean why would you take a picture like that?”

Chaka: “I do not. Let’s look closely at the exhibit right here, Judge. Where is my hand placed in this exhibit?”

Judge: “I do not answer questions. . . . The witness does.”

Chaka: “Can you tell me where my hand is actually at in this photo?”

Davis: “It looks like it’s in the genitals to me. I mean your hands are on his genitals. Your hand is on his—”

Chaka: “Objection.”

Yeah...wonder why the skins are reticent to give Davis a long term deal...

[justinskins]

Hahahaha.

Going into court without a lawyer is one of the dumbest things anyone can do.

[Goskins11]

he seems like a real head case. hopefully cooley looks strong and the skins can dump davis if he doesn,t get his sh*t together. i know he's really the only reciever worth anything last year but hed seems destined for trouble.

[CNYSkinFan]

dont worry we got niles paul at te!

[Goskins11]

dont worry we got niles paul at te!

lol.....maybe he will be good?.... yikes...

[FanFromArizona]

BONG
B-BONG BONG

sorry, couldn't resist.
Good God.

[GloryHog]

Hahahaha.

Going into court without a lawyer is one of the dumbest things anyone can do.

I would usually agree with that, but this crazy woman is representing herself as well. As bizarre as this whole thing is, it actually sounded to me like Fred has it pretty well in hand.

The article was very well written and seemed to contain all of the salient points. That woman is a real piece of work and I''ll bet Freddy rues the day he first met her.

The biggest point to this is that he needs to just drop out of the club scene. The guy is walking a fine line anyway. If he's still hanging around in clubs, I can't ever see how that would be a good thing.

[hail2skins]

This should be on court TV. Should be a lot of laughs.

[akhhorus]

This should be on court TV. Should be a lot of laughs.

Only if Davis dresses and acts like Tyler Perry's Madea at every hearing.

[oldskinfan]

"flagellant?"

[akhhorus]

"flagellant?"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flagellant


1. One who whips, especially one who scourges oneself for religious discipline or public penance.
2. One who seeks sexual gratification in beating or being beaten by another person.

Im going to guess that Fred didn't know what he was talking about.

[justinskins]

"flagellant?"

I believe that he was grasping for "flagrant."

[Lacquer Head]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/27/Jay-Z_-_99_Problems%2BDirt_Off_Your_Shoulder_(CD2).jpg/220px-Jay-Z_-_99_Problems%2BDirt_Off_Your_Shoulder_(CD2).jpg

Also get a lawyer dummy. I'm poor but I got my boy on call.

Not that I've ever needed a lawyer!

[Lacquer Head]

This should be on court TV. Should be a lot of laughs.

Also, this. I used to be a court reporter and this would be like the holy grail of transcript tapes.

EDIT: To give you some idea, I recorded thousands of cases over several years, and maybe ten of those went ahead (as opposed to guilty pleas) with people representing themselves. Certainly none of those involved an NFL player and some random hoochie having a self-represented pseudo-legal bro-down on a national stage.

[LadyNRedskinsfan]

Good Lord, I pray he grows out of whatever mindset he's in. :doh:

[CNYSkinFan]

Also, this. I used to be a court reporter and this would be like the holy grail of transcript tapes.

EDIT: To give you some idea, I recorded thousands of cases over several years, and maybe ten of those went ahead (as opposed to guilty pleas) with people representing themselves. Certainly none of those involved an NFL player and some random hoochie having a self-represented pseudo-legal bro-down on a national stage.
I literally just laughed for two good minutes at this post...well done.

[CNYSkinFan]

Wait a minute, why pretend to be Santana Moss....something tells me Santana is also involved with chaka.

This could get to be as bad as the Smoot loveboat

[Red Bear]

I believe that he was grasping for "flagrant."

or it could of been a misquote.

this is a wild story though. sounds like many of the facts reported are in freds favor, but you never really know. the video tape and police report description of it certainly seem to favor him.

this woman seems like she could be very vindictive and just out to get davis in trouble. seems like the type that has friends who if they see davis out, they call her and she shows up trying to get him in trouble. of course im just merely speculating...

[akhhorus]

or it could of been a misquote.

this is a wild story though. sounds like many of the facts reported are in freds favor, but you never really know. the video tape and police report description of it certainly seem to favor him.

this woman seems like she could be very vindictive and just out to get davis in trouble. seems like the type that has friends who if they see davis out, they call her and she shows up trying to get him in trouble. of course im just merely speculating...

Then get yourself a good lawyer and fight her. Thats the sane thing to do and he certainly can afford it. This makes me question his sanity.

[cal_junior]

Marijuana is a hell of a drug.

[Red Bear]

Then get yourself a good lawyer and fight her. Thats the sane thing to do and he certainly can afford it. This makes me question his sanity.

oh, i agree he should have a lawyer. a good lawyer could probably flip a counter-suit on her. a lawyer would also give him an advantage over her representing herself

[akhhorus]

oh, i agree he should have a lawyer. a good lawyer could probably flip a counter-suit on her. a lawyer would also give him an advantage over her representing herself

A lawyer could also tell him: "Fred, is this worth it? Eat the restraining order and move on."

[CNYSkinFan]

oh, i agree he should have a lawyer. a good lawyer could probably flip a counter-suit on her. a lawyer would also give him an advantage over her representing herself
which is why you have to wonder why he is representing himself. Either

A.) He is insane

B.) He is pretty much high ll the time

or C.) Something real is going on and he thinks he can hide it by representing himself (which makes him pretty stupid too)

[justinskins]

oh, i agree he should have a lawyer. a good lawyer could probably flip a counter-suit on her. a lawyer would also give him an advantage over her representing herself

It's also perfectly acceptable to tell a lawyer that you don't really want him working more than xyz hours, or at least no more than necessary, on the case. Or just to settle it to keep yourself looking dumb in court.

[akhhorus]

B.) He is pretty much high ll the time


This was going on while Fred was smoking half of an Oregonian rain forest, so I'm guessing this is the cause of all these shenanigans.

[Red Bear]

A lawyer could also tell him: "Fred, is this worth it? Eat the restraining order and move on."

as for the counter suit part that was just something i threw in. it would be frivalous and best to just move on from that. but he cant just move on from the rest of the charges alleged against him...


which is why you have to wonder why he is representing himself. Either

A.) He is insane

B.) He is pretty much high ll the time

or C.) Something real is going on and he thinks he can hide it by representing himself (which makes him pretty stupid too)

i think its just pretty stupid of him.

also speculation, but could he be broke? doesnt want to pay a lawyer right now. could be a big underlying reason he signed the franchise tender so quickly. though he wont get any of that money until the season starts, it is fully guaranteed to him. maybe he has one in place for the actual trial. sounds like his ex-lawyer is also his ex-girlfriend...

[akhhorus]

as for the counter suit part that was just something i threw in. it would be frivalous and best to just move on from that. but he cant just move on from the rest of the charges alleged against him...

He's not facing criminal charges, just a civil action/restraining order. He can just write her a check or settle quietly with her. He certainly has enough money to do that.




also speculation, but could he be broke?

He could easily get a loan from his agent. Lawyers for something like this don't cost millions of dollars.

[Keino]

Marijuana is a hell of a drug.

Apparently it induces Zombie like behavior and the propensity to get involved with hoochies and court entanglements.

[CNYSkinFan]

Apparently it induces Zombie like behavior and the propensity to get involved with hoochies and court entanglements.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/ReeferMadnessPoster.jpg

[Red Bear]

He's not facing criminal charges, just a civil action/restraining order. He can just write her a check or settle quietly with her. He certainly has enough money to do that.


the point is he could have his reputation cleared of this and not pay a penny to this woman if she is indeed just trying to get money from him with bogus accusations.

you got money just to throw around and make it go away if you feel someone is suing you under false pretenses?

ive speculated some things, but i never claimed those speculations were actually the case or a true part of the situation...

[The Skinsinator]

Weird story for sure. Something tells me this chick is a huge golddigger and strongly zeroing in on Fred's pockets. He possibly can't be this dumb to not get an attorney if he truly thought he was in legal danger. Nonstory imo. Just ready to watch him catch RG3's bullets all year along.

[skinsfan36]

lol you get the trent williams scared straight article then you get this mess. you cant make this stuff up with davis lol. represent yourself wow i hope he was high when he decided this if not hes dumber than we all thought(multiple failed drug tests is pretty dumb under league watch)

[PyroGenic]

I believe that he was grasping for "flagrant."

I was guessing fraudulent myself.

[Emmanouel8]

With behavior like that who needs drug testing.

[justinskins]

I was guessing fraudulent myself.

This makes more sense.

[akhhorus]

the point is he could have his reputation cleared of this and not pay a penny to this woman if she is indeed just trying to get money from him with bogus accusations.

Thats up to a court.

you got money just to throw around and make it go away if you feel someone is suing you under false pretenses?


Then get a lawyer and fight the false accusations. Davis' tactic makes me question his sanity.

ive speculated some things, but i never claimed those speculations were actually the case or a true part of the situation...

Good to know

[Gravy]

Fred Davis quite possibly could be...The Walrus!

[Red Bear]

Thats up to a court.

Well Duh, no one said it wasnt...


Then get a lawyer and fight the false accusations. Davis' tactic makes me question his sanity.

he may not have a lawyer but appears to be fighting it. it also appears they tried to settle it as well and couldnt reach an agreement. why davis doesnt have a lawyer i really dont know, its stupid of him not to. i could care less about his sanity as long as he is catching footballs and making plays for us this upcoming season....

[akhhorus]

Well Duh, no one said it wasnt...


What you said:
"the point is he could have his reputation cleared of this and not pay a penny to this woman if she is indeed just trying to get money from him with bogus accusations."

I'm not aware of any judicial circuit which allows a defendant in a civil matter to dismiss the case and any liabilities without a hearing or settlement.

he may not have a lawyer but appears to be fighting it. it also appears they tried to settle it as well and couldnt reach an agreement. why davis doesnt have a lawyer i really dont know, its stupid of him not to. i could care less about his sanity as long as he is catching footballs and making plays for us this upcoming season....

Considering his past, his decision making is something that is relevant to the future of the redskins. They have 5.5 million invested in him this season when cap room is at a premium especially when they have an established player already at his position. He's going to want more for longer after this season.

[cal_junior]

Apparently it induces Zombie like behavior and the propensity to get involved with hoochies and court entanglements.

http://i49.tinypic.com/15ewoz8.png

[SkinsGuru]

Apparently it induces Zombie like behavior and the propensity to get involved with hoochies and court entanglements.

LOL . . . it must . . . i mean nobody that has been in trouble and was a pot smoker has ever hired a lawyer . . . smoking pot makes people paranoid, which in most cases would make a person RUN out to get a lawyer . . . while this may have started by some stupid stoned decisions, not getting a lawyer certainly has nothing to do with smoking pot . . .

[Keino]

(Picture of Lil Wayne)

Ugh. As a hip hop fan, I loathe, despise and detest this man.

BTW the zombie line was in reference to the guy in Miami who ate the homeless dude's face off. It came out yesterday that the only drug in his system was Pot. As someone who would like to see it become legal, this sort of thing and to a lesser extent, the tomfoolery of Davis, Weezy and a number of others (such as the dirty, rotten tooth hippies that show up at every NORML rally) are setting back a legitimate movement.

[WRSK1NS]

This makes more sense.

First thought that came to my mind was that he meant....
Flatulent

[AustinSkin]

Uggh...I hate this crap. Really poor decision making. I'd rather dump him right now and roll the dice with Jeremy Shockey for a season.

[Moe]

I find this story to be awesomely entertaining. That being said, it must suck to be a judge in cases like this where you have to constantly reprimand/correct these two for inappropriate conduct and procedure and probably wear your forehead raw with all the frustrated facepalming. 1000% he has a kicker in his coffee cup during all of this.

[cal_junior]

Ugh. As a hip hop fan, I loathe, despise and detest this man.

This. A thousand times this.

[culpeper]

I believe that he was grasping for "flagrant."

Or fraudulent...

[nicefellow31]

I find this story to be awesomely entertaining. That being said, it must suck to be a judge in cases like this where you have to constantly reprimand/correct these two for inappropriate conduct and procedure and probably wear your forehead raw with all the frustrated facepalming. 1000% he has a kicker in his coffee cup during all of this.

LOL. The judge is probably going "why me?" and then goes home and tweets/Facebook post "FML!"

I loved this exchange:

Chaka: “I do not. Let’s look closely at the exhibit right here, Judge. Where is my hand placed in this exhibit?”

Judge: “I do not answer questions. . . . The witness does.”

[cal_junior]

Davis would have been find if he'd started with:

"Judge, we live in a world that has footballs, and those footballs have to be caught by men with good hands. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Cooley? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom.. "

[akhhorus]

Davis would have been find if he'd started with:

"Judge, we live in a world that has footballs, and those footballs have to be caught by men with good hands. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Cooley? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom.. "

I can see Davis smoking up and watching the final scene of "To Kill A Mockingbird" over and over like Pink did with WW2 movies in "The Wall"

[RedskinsDave]

Fred Davis as Oswald Bates

http://www.tiricosuave.com/images/oswaldbates.jpg

[akhhorus]

http://www.washingtonian.com/blogs/capitalcomment/local-news/fred-davis-attorney-at-law-the-courtroom-transcripts.php

Holy Poop...

Chaka: I’ve never stayed the night at your home?

Davis: You’ve never stayed at my house ever. Ever.

Chaka: I’ve never been in your recording studio at your home?

Davis: No. You’ve never been—like I’m not going to, I don’t know how—

Chaka: So we never hung out at your house and stayed the night over there . . . and watched episodes of Martin before.



Chaka: Well, let’s look at your document. It says December the 3rd, 2012. What’s today’s date, Mr. Davis?

Davis: I don’t know. I don’t know.

Chaka: What’s the date of today?

Davis: I don’t know what today is. All I know is I had court today.

Chaka: Well, according to your statement, to bullet No. 5, it says that this event happened December 3rd, 2012.

Davis: Okay, and, what about it?

Chaka: Has December 3rd, 2012 even happened yet?

Davis: Well, because I mean, first of all it was my [birthday] party. If anything, you should have had to leave because it was my party and I mean, like, like I’m supposed to be having a good time. Second of all, it don’t take that long to rub liquor out of your face. I mean it took me about two or three minutes to get my eyes like right. Like wow, I still was blurry vision and my eyes were still burning that night for the whole night. After that, I was like, well, shoot, that’s crazy, that’s messed up, so after that I grabbed the juice and I poured it on you. That was it.




Davis: I don’t have any personal vendetta. I don’t have any personal reason to get money out of you, I mean, like for what? Why would I do that? I can take care of myself. I don’t need to seek medical attention, I’m getting Lasik eye surgery, yeah, but other than that, I’m not going to try to make you pay for it. Why? I don’t, I wouldn’t even give you the satisfaction, so.

Chaka: I have no further questions, Your Honor.

Chaka: Let’s look at these photos right here. Because I went to college. I go back to my homecoming every year. Why? Because a building on the campus named after a family of my family.

Davis: So, they use a pimp cup, that’s all.

Chaka: Mr. Davis, I’m drinking out of a decorated accessory as many celebrities do.

Davis: Many celebrities as who, Magic Don Juan that’s a pimp?

Chaka: As Paris Hilton, as Snoop Dog, as Little John—I work with celebrities. Don’t you think it could have been a gift from one of them?

Please televise this train wreck.

[flave1969]

Read that Washingtonian stuff, you couldn't make it up could you?

[akhhorus]

Read that Washingtonian stuff, you couldn't make it up could you?

How fast do you think Shanny was on the phone with Miami or another team about Davis after reading this? 30 seconds? 60?

[RedskinsDave]

Um, wow.

[Keino]

Um, wow.

Seriously. This guy is a clown. I can't believe gave him a franchise tender all things considered.

[Emmanouel8]

http://www.washingtonian.com/blogs/capitalcomment/local-news/fred-davis-attorney-at-law-the-courtroom-transcripts.php

Holy Poop...
Please televise this train wreck.

Lmao, speechless. Has anyone ever heard of a "pimp cup" before this?

I hope neither lawyers up, this is getting too good.

As far as football, please get rid of this guy ASAP.

[flave1969]

How fast do you think Shanny was on the phone with Miami or another team about Davis after reading this? 30 seconds? 60?

The thing that gets me is that this has been going on for a year and a half. Does anyone pay attention at Redskins Park?

Davis certainly is not going to be the poster boy for a College education.

[Keino]

I would like a Pimp Cup for my birthday!

http://warehouse.carlh.com/article_148/pimp_cup_03.jpg

[dj_stouty]

When the questioning got real rough...(like "what is today's date"...lol), Fred should have hit em with a Bryce Harper original...

http://zipmeme.com/uploads/generated/g1339878183595436138.jpg

[akhhorus]

The thing that gets me is that this has been going on for a year and a half. Does anyone pay attention at Redskins Park?


or the local media. This has all been in the public record. And I have no doubt that his..opponent..has run to the local media about this.


Somewhere Chris Cooley is laughing and buying that new boat he was saving up for.

[flave1969]

As Keino said, and to think we franchised this guy. How long until the next saga, the next questionable decision. I despair sometimes.

[hail2skins]

C'mon, this is free comedy. Let it flow. There isn't anything else to talk about. I think we should create a hR Pimp Cup.

[akhhorus]

C'mon, this is free comedy. Let it flow. There isn't thing else to talk about. I think we should create a hR Pimp Cup.

I'll drink my bourbon in it, as many HR Staff Writers do.

[GloryHog]

C'mon, this is free comedy. Let it flow. There isn't thing else to talk about. I think we should create a hR Pimp Cup.

Exactly. What's the worst thing that comes of this. He pays her a few thousand dollars and has to stop going to the clubs she frequents. BFD. Like I said before, he shouldn't be in those clubs anyway.

It is funny as hell though.

[Keino]

Exactly. What's the worst thing that comes of this. He pays her a few thousand dollars and has to stop going to the clubs she frequents. BFD. Like I said before, he shouldn't be in those clubs anyway.

It is funny as hell though.

He makes an embarrassment of himself and by extension the team. It comes out that he and number of players are using the pay for sex services etc.

I agree that it's pretty funny, but it's not a BFD situation. Gibbs had one rule: Don't embarrass yourself or the team. And lets not forget the Commish and his unlimited power and inconsistently enforced personal conduct policy. If this makes headlines or damaging info comes out we could be looking at some further disciplinary action by Der Commish. Not that I think all that will happen, but I am answering your question "What's the worst that can come from this?".

[GloryHog]

He makes an embarrassment of himself and by extension the team. It comes out that he and number of players are using the pay for sex services etc.

I agree that it's pretty funny, but it's not a BFD situation. Gibbs had one rule: Don't embarrass yourself or the team. And lets not forget the Commish and his unlimited power and inconsistently enforced personal conduct policy. If this makes headlines or damaging info comes out we could be looking at some further disciplinary action by Der Commish. Not that I think all that will happen, but I am answering your question "What's the worst that can come from this?".

Oh, no argument from me. If he turns out to be a great player this will only be strike two and could be chuckled at. If he is not at least very good and he bungles it one more time, it's going to be sayonara no doubt. It would be a shame...We have so little to show for the Snyderatto years.

[akhhorus]

Oh, no argument from me. If he turns out to be a great player this will only be strike two and could be chuckled at. If he is not at least very good and he bungles it one more time, it's going to be sayonara no doubt. It would be a shame...We have so little to show for the Snyderatto years.

Would you give him a long term massive contract if he demands it? I wouldn't give him anything more than 2 years with an option for a 3rd for less then 13 million total.

[Keino]

Oh, no argument from me. If he turns out to be a great player this will only be strike two and could be chuckled at. If he is not at least very good and he bungles it one more time, it's going to be sayonara no doubt. It would be a shame...We have so little to show for the Snyderatto years.

If nothing else comes of this, we can all point and laugh as we sip bourbon or tequilla from our Pimp Cups. I am definitely having one of those made, with the #86 on it once the final roster is set and he makes the team.

[Skins7ny]

"flagellant?"
A little education is a dangerous thing.
He's not facing criminal charges, just a civil action/restraining order. He can just write her a check or settle quietly with her. He certainly has enough money to do that.

He could easily get a loan from his agent. Lawyers for something like this don't cost millions of dollars.
He has to fight it, because if she succeeds in getting a civil restraining order on him, with her apparent habit of showing up wherever he goes, he will be in the slammer in no time at all. If he is at the same club as her all she has to do is waive the order at a police officer and off Fred goes. Even if he gets released the next day, he cannot afford to have any run-ins with the law. Writing her a check to go away could work, but that is not going to stop her from applying for another restraining order in the future or from suing him again. Fred should certainly have gotten himself a good lawyer. I am sure that the Skins FO could have connected him with someone. I am sure that they have at least one player "problem-solver" on staff.
With behavior like that who needs drug testing.
Funny. Although it would be funnier if it weren't so close to the truth. Or if it was a Cowboys player we were talking about.
Uggh...I hate this crap. Really poor decision making. I'd rather dump him right now and roll the dice with Jeremy Shockey for a season.
Fred Davis is an immature idiot. Jeremy Shockey is just a bad, bad person. I would rather have the immature idiot. Although I would obviously prefer a team of London Fletchers.
I find this story to be awesomely entertaining. That being said, it must suck to be a judge in cases like this where you have to constantly reprimand/correct these two for inappropriate conduct and procedure and probably wear your forehead raw with all the frustrated facepalming. 1000% he has a kicker in his coffee cup during all of this.
Having tried many cases in DC Superior Court, I would love to know who the judge is. Every lawyer hates going up against pro se litigants in court. Even though those cases are very easy to win, they are incredibly frustrating to try. The judge must be hating his job right now.
Davis would have been find if he'd started with:

"Judge, we live in a world that has footballs, and those footballs have to be caught by men with good hands. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Cooley? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom.. "
LOL.
Fred Davis as Oswald Bates

http://www.tiricosuave.com/images/oswaldbates.jpg
I have to admit, my thoughts turned to that character from Living Color as well when I read the first posting. Fred really should have a lawyer for this. He is not making himself look very good.
He makes an embarrassment of himself and by extension the team. It comes out that he and number of players are using the pay for sex services etc.

I agree that it's pretty funny, but it's not a BFD situation. Gibbs had one rule: Don't embarrass yourself or the team. And lets not forget the Commish and his unlimited power and inconsistently enforced personal conduct policy. If this makes headlines or damaging info comes out we could be looking at some further disciplinary action by Der Commish. Not that I think all that will happen, but I am answering your question "What's the worst that can come from this?".
If football authorities were to ban every player who cavorted with ladies of ill repute, we'd be watching a lot of BYU v. Liberty University. No one else could field a full team!

[Keino]

In my experience, what makes pro se litigant cases tough is that judges tend to give breaks to them on procedural issues. On occasion though, our office will come across a pro se litigant that works in the field and actually is competent in terms of the rules of procedure and the issues at hand.

I can represent myself up to a point, but I am almost always going to retain an attorney.

SkinsNY, I would remind you that Cap'n Smoot and his love boat escapades brought about suspensions.....

[Skins7ny]

Oh, no argument from me. If he turns out to be a great player this will only be strike two and could be chuckled at. If he is not at least very good and he bungles it one more time, it's going to be sayonara no doubt. It would be a shame...We have so little to show for the Snyderatto years.

Vinny is the gift that keep on giving.
If Vinny were still here, he would probably
find a way to trade for Andray Blatche!

[Skins7ny]

In my experience, what makes pro se litigant cases tough is that judges tend to give breaks to them on procedural issues. On occasion though, our office will come across a pro se litigant that works in the field and actually is competent in terms of the rules of procedure and the issues at hand.

I can represent myself up to a point, but I am almost always going to retain an attorney.

SkinsNY, I would remind you that Cap'n Smoot and his love boat escapades brought about suspensions.....

I once went up against a pro se litigant in a District Court case in PG County who was really was very good. The judge made a point of telling her that even though he was ruling against her, he was very impressed with her and that she was the finest pro se litigant he had ever run across. He told her that if she could she should go to law school and become a lawyer. Of course, that only emboldened her to appeal his decision.

She was the exception rather than the rule. Most pro se litigants are like Fred and Chaka.

You point about Capt. Smoot is well-taken. Was the sexual canoodling the thing that got them suspended or was it some specific aspect of the general depravity that did in Capt. Fred?

I wonder how Fred is enjoying married life down in Atlanta nowadays? I think he married a doctor or a lawyer, if memory serves. I would think the whole Love Boat thing made for a tough intro to the prospective in-laws.

[GloryHog]

I once went up against a pro se litigant in a District Court case in PG County who was really was very good. The judge made a point of telling her that even though he was ruling against her, he was very impressed with her and that she was the finest pro se litigant he had ever run across. He told her that if she could she should go to law school and become a lawyer. Of course, that only emboldened her to appeal his decision.

She was the exception rather than the rule. Most pro se litigants are like Fred and Chaka.

You point about Capt. Smoot is well-taken. Was the sexual canoodling the thing that got them suspended or was it some specific aspect of the general depravity that did in Capt. Fred?

I wonder how Fred is enjoying married life down in Atlanta nowadays? I think he married a doctor or a lawyer, if memory serves. I would think the whole Love Boat thing made for a tough intro to the prospective in-laws.

I once beat a running a red light rap. I was able to convince the judge that the yellow light was short cycling (it was) and I did not have enough time to safely stop. I had attorneys stop me on the way out to shake my hand. True it was only traffic court and I would not attempt that with anything serious, but it was fun.

[hail2skins]

We can have a mock case here at hR and have two members represent themselves. Oh wait, we do that everyday. :D

But serious, it would be fun to do this.

[DaveKShape]

I don't mean to run a joke into the ground, but I am quite proud of this Photoshop, so it must be used again. This explains everything:

http://i45.tinypic.com/20u60pz.jpg

[SKINSATIONAL]

Ugh. As a hip hop fan, I loathe, despise and detest this man.

BTW the zombie line was in reference to the guy in Miami who ate the homeless dude's face off. It came out yesterday that the only drug in his system was Pot. As someone who would like to see it become legal, this sort of thing and to a lesser extent, the tomfoolery of Davis, Weezy and a number of others (such as the dirty, rotten tooth hippies that show up at every NORML rally) are setting back a legitimate movement.

Wow! You are the first person to know what NORML is...everyone I mention it to has never heard of that or L.E.A.P.
Obviously I'm against prohibition as well lol...

[CNYSkinFan]

We can have a mock case here at hR and have two members represent themselves. Oh wait, we do that everyday. :D

But serious, it would be fun to do this.
Can i represent myself in the style of Fred Davis?

[Emmanouel8]

I don't mean to run a joke into the ground, but I am quite proud of this Photoshop, so it must be used again. This explains everything:

http://i45.tinypic.com/20u60pz.jpg

It does, using the pimp cup we can now identify Magic Don Juan.

[Lacquer Head]

Again, smoking weed does NOT make you insane on this scale. It can bring out dormant traits such as epilepsy and schizophrenia however.

And thanks CSNY. Fortunately, this kind of comedy practically writes itself.

[Lacquer Head]

Also, Fred Davis is going to have 70+ catches, 800-900 yards receiving, 8-10 TDs, and goes to the pro bowl.

MARK IT DOWN FOLKS.

[Emmanouel8]

Also, Fred Davis is going to have 70+ catches, 800-900 yards receiving, 8-10 TDs, and goes to the pro bowl.

MARK IT DOWN FOLKS.

...I bet you a pimp cup he doesn't go to the pro bowl.

[smoak]

I believe that he was grasping for "flagrant."

I was pretty sure he meant flatulent.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flatulent

[smoak]

Also, Fred Davis is going to have 70+ catches, 800-900 yards receiving, 8-10 TDs, and goes to the pro bowl.

MARK IT DOWN FOLKS.

I would not shed a tear if the Redskins cut him in preseason. He is the classic example of a talented athlete that loves himself too much.

I can't wait for the day until Feddie & Silverback are replaced.

[Lacquer Head]

...I bet you a pimp cup he doesn't go to the pro bowl.

I'm willing to stake my entire reputation on this

-Mike Shanahan

Seriously though, I'll take any comers in this bet. Maybe the loser has to go to a game wearing something ridiculous like a woman's dress, purse, and hat, and, I don't know, a pig-nose or something...

[akhhorus]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a4bf5f/article/fred-davis-reportedly-not-in-line-for-new-redskins-deal

Fred Davis reportedly not in line for new Redskins deal


Davis is unlikely to receive a multi-year extension before the July 16 deadline, our pal Rich Tandler of Comcast SportsNet Washington writes Tuesday.

(snip)

The Redskins are always willing to spend money to add or keep players. It speaks volumes that they've been unwilling to do so yet on Davis.


Cause and effect.

[Keino]

In all seriousness, I cannot even post my real reaction to this foolishness or I would have to ban myself. I had my best friend read it and when he was done he looked up and said exactly what I was thinking. This is just evidence to me that many of these guys do not take advantage of the educational opportunities they are given for free. But hey, Freddy can identify a pimp cup when he sees one.

[AustinSkin]

It appears that [good] character is becoming a mainstay of the new Redskins identity. As the team builds chemistry and cohesion, I believe there will be very little patience with these off-the-field antics.

Fred had better straighten-up, fly right and perform - or he will be on a very short leash, IMO.

[Emmanouel8]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a4bf5f/article/fred-davis-reportedly-not-in-line-for-new-redskins-deal

Cause and effect.

A few of us thought extending him to a big contract was a bad idea before this and luckily this news broke out in time to get a majority of folks off the Fred Davis bandwagon.

Early warninig signs include sleeping "through his alarm clock," and "over" performing in a contract year.

My guess is last season's production is Davis's "cap," the problem being is himself.

Giving this guy a huge deal with up front money is a recipe for disaster.

[cal_junior]

Early warninig signs include sleeping "through his alarm clock," and "over" performing in a contract year.

Actually the early warning signs came in college when he was doing the exact same kind of stuff. And we drafted him anyway.

We should have taken Jermichael Finley. Stupid Vinny

[akhhorus]

It appears that [good] character is becoming a mainstay of the new Redskins identity. As the team builds chemistry and cohesion, I believe there will be very little patience with these off-the-field antics.

Fred had better straighten-up, fly right and perform - or he will be on a very short leash, IMO.

Williams and Davis could have been made an example of if they really cared about character, and they could have cleared out about 14-16 million in cap room while doing it.

[Lacquer Head]

I'm still waiting for someone to take me up on that bet.

I have several reasons why I think he will have a career year.

[Keino]

I'm still waiting for someone to take me up on that bet.

I have several reasons why I think he will have a career year.

Two things:

1. A Career year would be 800 yards. So far his career has been pretty much "meh".

2. It would be typical Redskins fashion for him to have a career year. That's what the vast majority of our players do in contract years.

[Emmanouel8]

I'm still waiting for someone to take me up on that bet.

I have several reasons why I think he will have a career year.

Any wagers I take will be over a pimp cup. Anything less isn't worth it. Watching you dress like a woman isn't exactly my idea of a reward. More like a double whammy.

[Lacquer Head]

Any wagers I take will be over a pimp cup. Anything less isn't worth it. Watching you dress like a woman isn't exactly my idea of a reward. More like a double whammy.

Whiffed on the Hogs reference, but that's okay.

I don't have a pimp chalice. I was thinking more along the lines of a sig bet.

[Lacquer Head]

Two things:

1. A Career year would be 800 yards. So far his career has been pretty much "meh".

2. It would be typical Redskins fashion for him to have a career year. That's what the vast majority of our players do in contract years.

Correct on both points.

I'm betting he goes to the pro bowl, though. The career year would just be a function of that.'

I would also posit that getting 800 yards receiving with Rax Grissman and Joshua Beck chucking you the ball has to be weighted differently than, say, Gronkowski or the kid from New Orleans.

[Keino]

Correct on both points.

I'm betting he goes to the pro bowl, though. The career year would just be a function of that.'

I would also posit that getting 800 yards receiving with Rax Grissman and Joshua Beck chucking you the ball has to be weighted differently than, say, Gronkowski or the kid from New Orleans.

I don't see him making the pro-bowl. Graham and Witten have more notoriety and frankly, are better players. Then there are Jermichael Finley and Vernon Davis who broke out last year in a big way and they are better players as well.

For my money Witten is the best TE in the NFC east. He is an outstanding blocker and receiver. Excuse me while I go puke.

[Lacquer Head]

My football bets are always made on a whiim with no consideration whatsoever for extenuating factors.

However:

I stand by my prediction.

EDIT: And I agree with you about Witten. Gross. He's due to get hurt though.

[Keino]

My football bets are always made on a whiim with no consideration whatsoever for extenuating factors.

However:

I stand by my prediction.

EDIT: And I agree with you about Witten. Gross. He's due to get hurt though.

Ahh so you are betting that Freddy "Pimp Cup" Davis will backdoor his way into the probowl?

I'll take that bet. LMAO

[BostonSkins]

Good catch - Davis admitted that he was at a club the night before a 1:00PM kickoff

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/fred-davis-admits-he-was-at-a-club-the-day-before-a-redskins-game/2012/07/03/gJQAwRHrKW_blog.html

[Lavar703]

Good catch - Davis admitted that he was at a club the night before a 1:00PM kickoff

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/fred-davis-admits-he-was-at-a-club-the-day-before-a-redskins-game/2012/07/03/gJQAwRHrKW_blog.html

"You have smoked yourself retarded"-Dave Chapelle

[Lavar703]

Williams and Davis could have been made an example of if they really cared about character, and they could have cleared out about 14-16 million in cap room while doing it.

How would you replace Williams though Akh? You can't just cut a LT who has played pretty well to set an example.

[Emmanouel8]

Whiffed on the Hogs reference, but that's okay.

I don't have a pimp chalice. I was thinking more along the lines of a sig bet.

I tell you what, we can compromise. Let's start with a pimp cup sig and work the details out from there? We can design a Pimp Cup sig that the winner or loser will have to bear in their sig.

I can wait until an authentic pimp cup becomes available in the meantime.

[jaylen]

Davis is what we call a certfied lunchbox. He's lunching bad to be in court as his own attorney in this completely bizarre case. LOL its all too damn funny.

[akhhorus]

How would you replace Williams though Akh? You can't just cut a LT who has played pretty well to set an example.

Willie smith showed enough to me that he+a vet it could handle the LT spot.

[silverspring]

Good catch - Davis admitted that he was at a club the night before a 1:00PM kickoff

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/fred-davis-admits-he-was-at-a-club-the-day-before-a-redskins-game/2012/07/03/gJQAwRHrKW_blog.html

please trade him

[Lacquer Head]

Ahh so you are betting that Freddy "Pimp Cup" Davis will backdoor his way into the probowl?

I'll take that bet. LMAO

You know it.

Either I'm going to have enough Pimp Cups for the best Easter ever, or I'm going to be living in the Sally next year...

And backdoor his way in is the way to put it. I think he's just good enough not to start in the pro bowl.

Either way save this thread, I know I will.

[Lacquer Head]

Also, if I win I want this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIPEDREAM-Bachelorette-PIMP-CUP-Black-FREE-SHIPPING-/140735283960?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c47a02f8#ht_1247wt_968

Emmanuel can get me the one that says "BOSS"

[Nomad]

This whole development is worrisome.
Some dunce athletes just don't get it.
You are asking a franchise to make a long term financial commitment to you for tens of millions of dollars, and you publicize a goat rodeo like this?
It also suggests he may not have been wise with his money.
Think of it just from sponsorship angle: he is about to become an elite tight end. Why do something like this which would scare away most respectable endorsement deals?
He may not be smoking weed, but he has not matured, and this would make more sense if he was high!
What a moronic hood rat.
Guy signed a $5.4 million franchise tender, he won't spend $10,000 on a lawyer?
The stupidity of some pro athletes is just unfathomable.
What a pathetic human being.

[akhhorus]

What a moronic hood rat.

Classy as always.

[Keino]

Classy as always.

I don't have a problem with it. I mean when you walk and quack like a duck, ou can't get upset when people call you a duck.

[akhhorus]

I don't have a problem with it. I mean when you walk and quack like a duck, ou can't get upset when people call you a duck.

Hood rat would make far more sense if Fred was a thief or a history of dealing. Fred's a lazy pothead who likes to go out to the club. Basically describes most of the white hipsters in the greater DC area lol.

[Keino]

Hood rat would make far more sense if Fred was a thief or a history of dealing. Fred's a lazy pothead who likes to go out to the club. Basically describes most of the white hipsters in the greater DC area lol.

I think his pro se litigation skills land him in hood rat territory (hence my FB comment the other day). Of course even the great Thurgood Marshall struggled in oral arguments when the SCOTUS asked him the date, so I guess I am being too hard on the guy. lol

[akhhorus]

I think his pro se litigation skills land him in hood rat territory (hence my FB comment the other day).

Moron maybe more then hood rat.

Of course even the great Thurgood Marshall struggled in oral arguments when the SCOTUS asked him the date, so I guess I am being too hard on the guy. lol

Chief Justice Rehquist, I’m drinking out of a decorated accessory as many future Supreme Court Judges do...

[Lavar703]

Willie smith showed enough to me that he+a vet it could handle the LT spot.

I disagree. You have one with the talent to be the best in the game and one a very good reserve. Willie Smith should be given a chance to play RT this year but I would be very hesitant of starting him at LT for an extended period of time. We've played these games before with guys like Stephon Heyer and it didn't work, give Trent the chance to show he has his head on straight before we ship him out of town to watch him develop into an All-Pro.

[akhhorus]

I disagree. You have one with the talent to be the best in the game and one a very good reserve. Willie Smith should be given a chance to play RT this year but I would be very hesitant of starting him at LT for an extended period of time. We've played these games before with guys like Stephon Heyer and it didn't work, give Trent the chance to show he has his head on straight before we ship him out of town to watch him develop into an All-Pro.

Yeah, and I was alone saying that Heyer was a waste of space after his first preseason game for the Skins. I like Williams, he's got a universe of talent but zero consistency and I don't trust him on or off the field. Even if he stays sober, its pretty clear that the league knows you can get inside his head and bait him into dumb personal fouls and while he can have games like he did against Ware in his debut or vs Seattle in 2011, he also can look totally lost.

I don't think that Willie Smith has anywhere near the talent then Williams, but considering the 13 million dollar gap in cost between the two: I would have dealt Williams for a first(or high 2nd) round pick, drafted a replacement and rolled with him and Smith while using that extra cash to upgrade other parts of the team. If Williams get suspended again or struggles badly in 2012, you're stuck with a massive contract that you can't move in 2013.

[Keino]

FWIW, I think Williams doesn't get into any trouble in 2012. I have more faith in his ability to get his head on straight than I do for ole Pimp Cup, who has been effing up since day 1. Who has alarm clock issues for their first day on a new job? I wouldn't have been upset if the moved Williams, but I am okay with keeping him as well given the investment in him. We've done enough selling low and buying high that I would really like to see if we can get our value out of the guy.

[CNYSkinFan]

FWIW, I think Williams doesn't get into any trouble in 2012. I have more faith in his ability to get his head on straight than I do for ole Pimp Cup, who has been effing up since day 1. Who has alarm clock issues for their first day on a new job? I wouldn't have been upset if the moved Williams, but I am okay with keeping him as well given the investment in him. We've done enough selling low and buying high that I would really like to see if we can get our value out of the guy.
not to mention Williams issues could be chalked up to being a dumb rookie and making a ton of mistakkes that led to consequences in his second year. Fred on the other hand has been here for awhile and should know better.

And the hard truth is you can replace a knucklehead pass catching Tight End very very easily, not so much a Left Tackle.

[firehawk157]

Yeah, and I was alone saying that Heyer was a waste of space after his first preseason game for the Skins. I like Williams, he's got a universe of talent but zero consistency and I don't trust him on or off the field. Even if he stays sober, its pretty clear that the league knows you can get inside his head and bait him into dumb personal fouls and while he can have games like he did against Ware in his debut or vs Seattle in 2011, he also can look totally lost.

I don't think that Willie Smith has anywhere near the talent then Williams, but considering the 13 million dollar gap in cost between the two: I would have dealt Williams for a first(or high 2nd) round pick, drafted a replacement and rolled with him and Smith while using that extra cash to upgrade other parts of the team. If Williams get suspended again or struggles badly in 2012, you're stuck with a massive contract that you can't move in 2013.

I agree, Williams problem is consistency, he gets lazy on the field. However, that's something that he can grow out of and he has gotten better each year. If he gets his head in the game, he can block anybody. Maybe this wake-up call does it. I know we shouldn't just throw out the most physically gifted LT in the league for acting like the young man he is.

[firehawk157]

not to mention Williams issues could be chalked up to being a dumb rookie and making a ton of mistakkes that led to consequences in his second year. Fred on the other hand has been here for awhile and should know better.

And the hard truth is you can replace a knucklehead pass catching Tight End very very easily, not so much a Left Tackle.

I agree. Regardless of whether or not Fred Davis has a "breakout" year or goes to the pro bowl, we need to get rid of him at the end of the year. He's made enough mistakes, for long enough, to show us that he just may never grow out of them.

[HanburgerBum]

please trade him



Trading Davis while his market value is probably at its lowest point would seem like a really bad idea. What team would offer us anything meaningful for him today?

I doubt Fred is the first football player who ever spent money on an escort. The sun will still rise from the east tomorrow. So, everyone needs to calm down and not over-react.

In fact, I think this would actually be a good time to ink Davis to a long-term contract precisely because he is not in great demand right now and would probably be agreeable to a fairly reasonable deal. Davis is a talented receiving TE and the team needs as many weapons as possible to surround RG3 with.

But, I would make a good chunk of the guaranteed money payable down the road and couple that money with a morals clause. This would hopefully ensure proper behavior on Davis' part. If not, the Skins would have lost nothing.

[HanburgerBum]

A few of us thought extending him to a big contract was a bad idea before this and luckily this news broke out in time to get a majority of folks off the Fred Davis bandwagon.

Early warninig signs include sleeping "through his alarm clock," and "over" performing in a contract year.

My guess is last season's production is Davis's "cap," the problem being is himself.

Giving this guy a huge deal with up front money is a recipe for disaster.


So, you think it was a bad thing that Davis had a productive season last year because that was a sign of "over" performing in a contract year? That logic is pretty difficult for me to follow. You would rather that he purposely went out and tank the season in order to avoid "over" performing in a contract season?

It should also be pointed out that Davis is still a relatively young player and I believe 2011 was only his 3rd season in the NFL. Perhaps, it just took him that long to become a good NFL player, as many young players do take a while to blossom. And, Davis' productive 2011 season had nothing do with "playing for a contract".

[smoak]

I don't have a problem with it. I mean when you walk and quack like a duck, ou can't get upset when people call you a duck.

+1

I am looking forward to seeing Cooley regain his spot & we shoul cut FD1 midseason so he can't sign somewhere else.

[smoak]

So, you think it was a bad thing that Davis had a productive season last year because that was a sign of "over" performing in a contract year? That logic is pretty difficult for me to follow. You would rather that he purposely went out and tank the season in order to avoid "over" performing in a contract season?

It should also be pointed out that Davis is still a relatively young player and I believe 2011 was only his 3rd season in the NFL. Perhaps, it just took him that long to become a good NFL player, as many young players do take a while to blossom. And, Davis' productive 2011 season had nothing do with "playing for a contract".

Yeah, it took Haynesworth awhile to blossom as well.

[cal_junior]

Trading Davis while his market value is probably at its lowest point would seem like a really bad idea.

I sure hope this is true.

[HanburgerBum]

I agree. Regardless of whether or not Fred Davis has a "breakout" year or goes to the pro bowl, we need to get rid of him at the end of the year. He's made enough mistakes, for long enough, to show us that he just may never grow out of them.


If you want a team full of choir boys, go look for them in churches. But, in the real world, talented football players aren't always choir boys. If the Redskins get rid of a talented player every time he has a relatively small off-the-field problem they will never be able to field a winning team. It is not as if we have a team over-loaded with talent and we can just throw some of it away casually.

Davis hasn't killed anyone. It is not even clear if the latest incident is his fault. Why don't we all just take a deep breath and see how things play out before we plot a strategy of how to get rid of him.

[HanburgerBum]

Yeah, it took Haynesworth awhile to blossom as well.


If Davis proves to be another Haynesworth, there will be plenty of time to get rid of him. Until then, the Redskins are in no position to get rid of a talented player for mild off-the-field transgressions.

[HanburgerBum]

I sure hope this is true.



If Davis can continue to be productive on the field despite his off-the-field hiccups, I presume his trading value will go up. But, if the happens, why would the Redskins want to get rid of him?

Receiving TE has become a very important position in today's NFL. It would be reasonable to argue that TE is more important than RB now. Some teams are paying their top TEs big bucks, while big-name RBs like Maurice Jones-Drew, Ray Rice and Matt Forte are finding out that their services are not in great demand.

[akhhorus]

If you want a team full of choir boys, go look for them in churches. But, in the real world, talented football players aren't always choir boys. If the Redskins get rid of a talented player every time he has a relatively small off-the-field problem they will never be able to field a winning team. It is not as if we have a team over-loaded with talent and we can just throw some of it away casually.

Davis hasn't killed anyone. It is not even clear if the latest incident is his fault. Why don't we all just take a deep breath and see how things play out before we plot a strategy of how to get rid of him.

Would you commit a large contract to Fred Davis now? Putting aside his off the field issues and his pot habit which hurts him on the field, is he worth a 20-30 million dollar commitment? I don't care what Fred Davis does in the club, the courtroom or in his bong closet. I do care that he seems to be incapable of making good decisions and with Cooley under contract I don't see why the skins should commit a big deal to someone who is incapable of making smart decisions.

If Davis can continue to be productive on the field despite his off-the-field hiccups,

Continue? He had one good season. Thats it.

Receiving TE has become a very important position in today's NFL. It would be reasonable to argue that TE is more important than RB now. Some teams are paying their top TEs big bucks, while big-name RBs like Maurice Jones-Drew, Ray Rice and Matt Forte are finding out that their services are not in great demand.

Good thing that the skins already have one in Cooley then.

[Lavar703]

+1

I am looking forward to seeing Cooley regain his spot & we shoul cut FD1 midseason so he can't sign somewhere else.

Just give it up already. I like Cooley just as much as any one else but he is on the downside of his career and doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy. You really want to dump a 26 year old TE with top-5 ability because of a little bit of foolishness? I'll admit, Fred has been a moron but he is young enough to mature and I would still give him that chance.

[justinskins]

I like Cooley just as much as any one else but he is on the downside of his career and doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy. You really want to dump a 26 year old TE with top-5 ability because of a little bit of foolishness? I'll admit, Fred has been a moron but he is young enough to mature and I would still give him that chance.

Agree with this.

[akhhorus]

Just give it up already. I like Cooley just as much as any one else but he is on the downside of his career and doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy. You really want to dump a 26 year old TE with top-5 ability because of a little bit of foolishness? I'll admit, Fred has been a moron but he is young enough to mature and I would still give him that chance.

1. Cooley had his best yardage year in 2010(tied with his 2008 season). How is he on the downside of his career? Because he hurt his knee in 2011?

2. What has Fred Davis done to show he can be anywhere near top 5? He had a nice 2011. Thats it. He hasn't done it for years like Cooley has and he's got major red flags all over him personally.

If someone wants to pay Fred 20-30 million, the skins should let him walk in a year. He's not worth it.

[Lavar703]

1. Cooley had his best yardage year in 2010(tied with his 2008 season). How is he on the downside of his career? Because he hurt his knee in 2011?

2. What has Fred Davis done to show he can be anywhere near top 5? He had a nice 2011. Thats it. He hasn't done it for years like Cooley has and he's got major red flags all over him personally.

If someone wants to pay Fred 20-30 million, the skins should let him walk in a year. He's not worth it.

I think Fred is clearly the better player at this point and I tend to think Cooley is done. His knee is not healing well, at least that was the report from the early mini-camp. Fred was well on his well to having a monster season when he was suspended and that was with the Beck/Rex show going on. We clearly disagree on this and that's cool, I just see it playing out completely different than you if we decide to keep Cooley over Davis.

[akhhorus]

I think Fred is clearly the better player at this point and I tend to think Cooley is done. His knee is not healing well, at least that was the report from the early mini-camp. Fred was well on his well to having a monster season when he was suspended and that was with the Beck/Rex show going on. We clearly disagree on this and that's cool, I just see it playing out completely different than you if we decide to keep Cooley over Davis.

Even if Davis had a "monster" season and Cooley is done(both of which I disagree with entirely), I still wouldn't give Davis the extension he's looking for. Players with motivation/pot red flags who don't show up until their free agency year aren't players you should commit a lot of money to. Davis didn't do squat until he was playing for a contract. Let someone else regret paying him.

[smave]

Davis can't block.

He is a Tight End, not a WR.

Why give him a big contract when he can't do his job?

[Red Bear]

Even if Davis had a "monster" season and Cooley is done(both of which I disagree with entirely), I still wouldn't give Davis the extension he's looking for. Players with motivation/pot red flags who don't show up until their free agency year aren't players you should commit a lot of money to. Davis didn't do squat until he was playing for a contract. Let someone else regret paying him.

the bold i disagree with. he did a great job filling in for Cooley when Zorn was the coach and Cooley went down.

[akhhorus]

the bold i disagree with. he did a great job filling in for Cooley when Zorn was the coach and Cooley went down.

48 catches/500 yards/6 TDs in 10 starts/16 games, one game over 70 yards receiving, 2 games over 60. Good job, not great. Certainly doesn't justify any big contract for him.

[Lavar703]

Davis can't block.

He is a Tight End, not a WR.

Why give him a big contract when he can't do his job?

Cooley can't block either, most pass-catching TE can't.

[Lavar703]

Even if Davis had a "monster" season and Cooley is done(both of which I disagree with entirely), I still wouldn't give Davis the extension he's looking for. Players with motivation/pot red flags who don't show up until their free agency year aren't players you should commit a lot of money to. Davis didn't do squat until he was playing for a contract. Let someone else regret paying him.

Agree to disagree Akh. I think Fred is just scratching the surface of what he is capable of and I think Cooley is starting to wear down due to the beating he has taken over the course of his career. If we keep Cooley and release/trade Davis I see it ending up very poorly for us, just my opinion though.

[akhhorus]

Cooley can't block either, most pass-catching TE can't.

Cooley can't take on a good DE on his own, but he's a good run blocker, a good blitz support blocker and knows how to bail out a QB by slowing down a blitzer, then turning around to give the QB a hot read. Davis isn't as good as Cooley is in this area.


Agree to disagree Akh. I think Fred is just scratching the surface of what he is capable of and I think Cooley is starting to wear down due to the beating he has taken over the course of his career. If we keep Cooley and release/trade Davis I see it ending up very poorly for us, just my opinion though.

If you were sitting across the table from Davis and his agent, and they ask for 40 million over 5 years(Gronk got 55 million as a reference), would you give it to him?

[cal_junior]

Just give it up already. I like Cooley just as much as any one else but he is on the downside of his career and doesn't seem to be able to stay healthy. You really want to dump a 26 year old TE with top-5 ability because of a little bit of foolishness? I'll admit, Fred has been a moron but he is young enough to mature and I would still give him that chance.

I'm in no way advocating we trade Freddy, but Cooley staying healthy is far more likely than Davis maturing.

[Lavar703]

Cooley can't take on a good DE on his own, but he's a good run blocker, a good blitz support blocker and knows how to bail out a QB by slowing down a blitzer, then turning around to give the QB a hot read. Davis isn't as good as Cooley is in this area.




If you were sitting across the table from Davis and his agent, and they ask for 40 million over 5 years(Gronk got 55 million as a reference), would you give it to him?

I don't know if I would be able to give him that kind of money honestly, either way you're taking a major risk though (signing/letting walk). If Allen decided to let him walk and he went on to have a tremendous career he will look really foolish and will look the same if he signs him to a big deal and he packs it in. With Davis, they're in an unenviable situation because the pendulum could swing either way with this guy.

[akhhorus]

I'm in no way advocating we trade Freddy, but Cooley staying healthy is far more likely than Davis maturing.

And even if both Cooley and Davis are on their way out replacing 700-850 or so receiving should be easy with the 11-12 million in cap room saved. Go out and get a top flight WR with some of that cash. Finding an oversized WR to play TE shouldn't be hard in the draft either.


I don't know if I would be able to give him that kind of money honestly, either way you're taking a major risk though (signing/letting walk). If Allen decided to let him walk and he went on to have a tremendous career he will look really foolish and will look the same if he signs him to a big deal and he packs it in. With Davis, they're are in an unenviable situation because the pendulum could swing either way with this guy.

I think that giving him that massive deal only to see it blow up in your face would be much worse then seeing him play as well(or better) somewhere else. Davis might have room to grow, but he's not going to turn into Jason Witten, Gates or Gonzo.

[Lavar703]

And even if both Cooley and Davis are on their way out replacing 700-850 or so receiving should be easy with the 11-12 million in cap room saved. Go out and get a top flight WR with some of that cash. Finding an oversized WR to play TE shouldn't be hard in the draft either.

But Fred was at 800 yards when he was suspended, there is no denying he would've finished over 1K. He's extremely talented and this is something you can't argue. He still finished 8th overall in yardage for TE, pretty damn good considering he missed 4 games. He was also 3rd overall in the league in YPG.

[Lavar703]

And even if both Cooley and Davis are on their way out replacing 700-850 or so receiving should be easy with the 11-12 million in cap room saved. Go out and get a top flight WR with some of that cash. Finding an oversized WR to play TE shouldn't be hard in the draft either.




I think that giving him that massive deal only to see it blow up in your face would be much worse then seeing him play as well(or better) somewhere else. Davis might have room to grow, but he's not going to turn into Jason Witten, Gates or Gonzo.

I don't see how that could be the case when he nearly had a better season than all three, even missing 4 games.....

[akhhorus]

But Fred was at 800 yards when he was suspended, there is no denying he would've finished over 1K. He's extremely talented and this is something you can't argue. He still finished 8th overall in yardage for TE, pretty damn good considering he missed 4 games. He was also 3rd overall in the league in YPG.


Even if he finished with 1061 yards(what he was on pace for), thats still not a lot to ask to replace. Especially since Davis was at his best when the skins were down more then a touchdown in the 4th quarter(18 catches for 203 yards, about 30% of his production). Unless I've missed something, I haven't heard or read a lot of handwringing about replacing Gaffney's 947 yards receiving(oddly enough Garcon had the exact amount last year). Even if Cooley can only get you 450 yards in 16 starts(which would be way out of character for him), you only need to find an additional 611 yards to replace Davis' production. I don't think thats asking a lot, especially with Hankerson healthy.


I don't see how that could be the case when he nearly had a better season than all three, even missing 4 games.....

You're going to make me explain context on that? Really? All three have long term track records for all-pro level play. Davis doesn't have their talent. And Gates has struggled with injuries for 2 seasons. He only played 1 more game then Davis did last year. If you think that Davis is even in the same ballpark as any of them, you're fooling yourself.

[Lavar703]

Even if he finished with 1061 yards(what he was on pace for), thats still not a lot to ask to replace. Especially since Davis was at his best when the skins were down more then a touchdown in the 4th quarter(18 catches for 203 yards, about 30% of his production). Unless I've missed something, I haven't heard or read a lot of handwringing about replacing Gaffney 947 yards receiving(oddly enough Garcon had the exact amount last year). Even if Cooley can only get you 450 yards in 16 starts(which would be way out of character for him), you only need to find an additional 611 yards to replace Davis' production. I don't think thats asking a lot, especially with Hankerson healthy.

That 1061 yards would've been good for third best among TE. With RGIII being a rookie I think every explosive player we have should be utilized, not thrown to the scrap-heap. Like I said it's just my opinion but I think Fred will be an unbelievable player in this league. Now if his maturity level could catch up to his talent then we would really be onto something....

[akhhorus]

That 1061 yards would've been good for third best among TE. With RGIII being a rookie I think every explosive player we have should be utilized, not thrown to the scrap-heap. Like I said it's just my opinion but I think Fred will be an unbelievable player in this league.

1061 yards, no matter where it ranks among TEs, is still easy to replace(or should be). Thats 66 yards a game. Graham and Gronk are irreplaceable, any other TE should be a 4th round pick away from being replaced.

Now if his maturity level could catch up to his talent then we would really be onto something....

If he didn't get a lawyer or settle his legal issues when they became public(or after the skins found out about it), his maturity level probably isn't going to change.

[Lavar703]

How would I be fooling myself if I believed he was just as talented when the tape from this past season clearly shows he is? He is a match-up nightmare for safety/LB and has the ability to go up and get the ball over any defender. He may be a bonehead who needs a course in maturation but he is one hell of a talented football player.

[akhhorus]

How would I be fooling myself if I believed he was just as talented when the tape from this past season clearly shows he is? He is a match-up nightmare for safety/LB and has the ability to go up and get the ball over any defender.

I thought I was clear that my "you're fooling yourself" was with your implication that Davis was anywhere near as good as Gates(injured the last 2 seasons), Gonzo(who's 36) and Witten(5000 yards and 27 TDs in the last 5 seasons combined).

He may be a bonehead who needs a course in maturation but he is one hell of a talented football player.

Not really, no. He's turned in one good season. Thats it. And about 30% of his production came when the skins were down big in the 4th quarter.

[Lavar703]

1061 yards, no matter where it ranks among TEs, is still easy to replace(or should be). Thats 66 yards a game. Graham and Gronk are irreplaceable, any other TE should be a 4th round pick away from being replaced.



If he didn't get a lawyer or settle his legal issues when they became public(or after the skins found out about it), his maturity level probably isn't going to change.

I just don't understand how you can think 1061 yards from a TE should be easily replaceable? However that's your opinion and you're very much entitled too it.

[akhhorus]

I just don't understand how you can think 1061 yards from a TE should be easily replaceable? However that's your opinion and you're very much entitled too it.

I'm not repeating myself.

[smave]

That 1061 yards would've been good for third best among TE. With RGIII being a rookie I think every explosive player we have should be utilized, not thrown to the scrap-heap. Like I said it's just my opinion but I think Fred will be an unbelievable player in this league. Now if his maturity level could catch up to his talent then we would really be onto something....

Yes, and we need a TE that can actually block something and know how to find a weakness in the defense. Both of which Davis can't do.

And ahk, I would totally avoid giving Fred 8 mill a year. Hell, I was cringing that we are giving him the 5.XX for the tag this year.

He is a headcase and immature. I would rather run into the season with Cooley/Paul/Paulsen for the same amount of money we would have to give Davis by himself.

[Lavar703]

Yes, and we need a TE that can actually block something and know how to find a weakness in the defense. Both of which Davis can't do.

And ahk, I would totally avoid giving Fred 8 mill a year. Hell, I was cringing that we are giving him the 5.XX for the tag this year.

He is a headcase and immature. I would rather run into the season with Cooley/Paul/Paulsen for the same amount of money we would have to give Davis by himself.

So Davis couldn't find a weakness in the defense but he was top 3 for 20+ yard catches by a TE.....

[akhhorus]

So Davis couldn't find a weakness in the defense but he was top 3 for 20+ yard catches by a TE.....

Its a lot easier to find space when you get about 30% of your production when your team is down big in the 4th quarter.

[HanburgerBum]

Would you commit a large contract to Fred Davis now? Putting aside his off the field issues and his pot habit which hurts him on the field, is he worth a 20-30 million dollar commitment? I don't care what Fred Davis does in the club, the courtroom or in his bong closet. I do care that he seems to be incapable of making good decisions and with Cooley under contract I don't see why the skins should commit a big deal to someone who is incapable of making smart decisions.



Continue? He had one good season. Thats it.



Good thing that the skins already have one in Cooley then.



Yes, I would sign Davis to an extension. But, I would do so with a "smart" contract. As I said in a previous post, I think this actually may a good time to do a deal with FD because he may not be in a position to make excessive demands.

I think committing 20 million or so to Davis for 4-5 years would be a good investment. But, I would make most of that 20+ mil payable towards the last two years of his extension and I would couple that with a morals clause. Hopefully, that would ensure his proper behavior. If not, the team will not have lost much.

I think your criticism that Davis has played well only in his contract year is not fair. How do you know his first two seasons were not just spent learning and developing, as many young players do go through? Moreover, his playing time had been limited due to the presence of Cooley and he was not a starter until last season.

I also do not agree with your characterization of Fred's 2011 production as "easily replaceable". He was on his way to a 1000+ yds season and that is good for any TE, especially one who had the likes of Rex and Beck throwing to him and no big-time threat at WRs to alleviate the pressure.

As for Cooley, I disagree that he is a more valuable commodity than Davis at this point. Not only is Chris pushing 30, he has lately shown to be injury-prone. I don't think there is much doubt that Davis is the bigger threat now. Incidentally, didn't Cooley also have some "wild" moments off-the-field? Didn't he dump his college sweet heart wife after taking up with a Skins cheerleader? Wasn't there a photo of Chris with his genitals exposed circulating the internet? He seemed to have survived all that intact.

I wish I knew if Nils Paul could develop into a top-notch receiving TE. I think it would be absurd to be rushing to get rid of Davis without knowing how good Paul is. Even if Paul does turn out well, how would having two (or even three) good receiving TEs hurt the team? Isn't that the trend the better passing teams are adopting?

[smave]

So Davis couldn't find a weakness in the defense but he was top 3 for 20+ yard catches by a TE.....

well, considering most of his yards came on that backside playaction pass to him, doesn't surprise me.

Only time I have a seen someone catch the ball 20 yards from a defender and still not score, lol.

[akhhorus]

Yes, I would sign Davis to an extension. But, I would do so with a "smart" contract. As I said in a previous post, I think this actually may a good time to do a deal with FD because he may not be in a position to make excessive demands.

I think committing 20 million or so to Davis for 4-5 years would be a good investment. But, I would make most of that 20+ mil payable towards the last two years of his extension and I would couple that with a morals clause. Hopefully, that would ensure his proper behavior. If not, the team will not have lost much.

In the future, don't bitch about the skins giving out stupid contracts if you think that signing Davis to a large extension is a "good investment."

I think your criticism that Davis has played well only in his contract year is not fair. How do you know his first two seasons were not just spent learning and developing, as many young players do go through? Moreover, his playing time had been limited due to the presence of Cooley and he was not a starter until last season.


Not true. He filled in for Cooley in 2009. He was okay.

I also do not agree with your characterization of Fred's 2011 production as "easily replaceable". He was on his way to a 1000+ yds season and that is good for any TE, especially one who had the likes of Rex and Beck throwing to him and no big-time threat at WRs to alleviate the pressure.

I'm not repeating myself(still). Please refer to my previous comments for my explanation.

As for Cooley, I disagree that he is a more valuable commodity than Davis at this point. Not only is Chris pushing 30, he has lately shown to be injury-prone. I don't think there is much doubt that Davis is the bigger threat now. Incidentally, didn't Cooley also have some "wild" moments off-the-field? Didn't he dump his college sweet heart wife after taking up with a Skins cheerleader? Wasn't there a photo of Chris with his genitals exposed circulating the internet? He seemed to have survived all that intact.

You're seriously equating what Cooley did with Davis testing positive for pot multiple times after he was warned about testing positive during the lockout and Davis' absurdist legal career? Nothing Cooley did remotely could affect his NFL career. Fred Davis is one strike away from a 16 game suspension(and it was only because the Union went to the mat for him and Williams that they weren't suspended for 16 games) and you're trying to equate the "incidents?" Really? No offense HB, but you're not being serious here or you're desperately reaching for something.

I wish I knew if Nils Paul could develop into a top-notch receiving TE. I think it would be absurd to be rushing to get rid of Davis without knowing how good Paul is. Even if Paul does turn out well, how would having two (or even three) good receiving TEs hurt the team? Isn't that the trend the better passing teams are adopting?

And teams seem to find those pass catching TEs out of nowhere. Graham and Gates weren't drafted. Hernandez was a 4th round pick, Witten and Finley were high 3rds and Brent Celek was a 5th rounder. Gronkowski was a mid 2nd. You don't need to expend much in the way of resources to find a great TE.

[Lavar703]

well, considering most of his yards came on that backside playaction pass to him, doesn't surprise me.

Only time I have a seen someone catch the ball 20 yards from a defender and still not score, lol.

Oh I see, now most of his 800 yards came on one play design.

[HanburgerBum]

In the future, don't bitch about the skins giving out stupid contracts if you think that signing Davis to a large extension is a "good investment."



Not true. He filled in for Cooley in 2009. He was okay.



I'm not repeating myself(still). Please refer to my previous comments for my explanation.



You're seriously equating what Cooley did with Davis testing positive for pot multiple times after he was warned about testing positive during the lockout and Davis' absurdist legal career? Nothing Cooley did remotely could affect his NFL career. Fred Davis is one strike away from a 16 game suspension(and it was only because the Union went to the mat for him and Williams that they weren't suspended for 16 games) and you're trying to equate the "incidents?" Really? No offense HB, but you're not being serious here or you're desperately reaching for something.



And teams seem to find those pass catching TEs out of nowhere. Graham and Gates weren't drafted. Hernandez was a 4th round pick, Witten and Finley were high 3rds and Brent Celek was a 5th rounder. Gronkowski was a mid 2nd. You don't need to expend much in the way of resources to find a great TE.



I know Davis is a risk. That's why I proposed a contract where a good chunk of the "guaranteed" money is back-loaded and coupled with a morals clause. That would protect the team from giving out a "stupid" extension to FD. Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't you big on trading for McNabb and for signing Atgowe? Now, you seem reluctant to re-sign one of our own more talented younger players even if the contract were designed in a way to minimize risk to the team.

Not true that Davis didn't start his first two seasons? Even your own answer "filled in for Cooley" in 2009 suggests that Davis was not the starter then.

Yeah, I know, you think most of Davis' yards last season were gotten in the 4th quarter with the team behind a bunch. I will admit that I haven't checked to see if that were true--assuming there is even a good way to check for that. But, it seems odd that he could have been on pace for 1,000+ yds and have most of that occur in meaningless situations. I think I will take my chances that he will be able to produce at meaningful times too.

You are right that Cooley's off-the-field transgressions are not identical to those of Davis. But, my point is that FD has not committed any truly serious malfeasance yet--at least nothing that would preclude him from being a productive player. I think there are very few choir boys in the NFL. Young, virile athletes with a lot of money and time on their hands are going to have off-the-field incidents when it comes to hot babes. If the contract were structured in a way to protect the team in case Davis were caught doing pot again, I think the risk of giving him an extension is totally justified.

As for being able to pick up good receiving TEs easily, I don't think it will be the case in the future. It is becoming clear to every team just how important that position has become. The competition to acquire them will get increasingly tougher.

[HanburgerBum]

I'm in no way advocating we trade Freddy, but Cooley staying healthy is far more likely than Davis maturing.


I don't know if I agree with that. Getting injured is not something Cooley can control or prevent. On the other hand, Davis knows fully well that getting caught doing pot again will mean a lengthy suspension and a huge hit on his career. He can exercise control to prevent that from happening.

[Red Bear]

48 catches/500 yards/6 TDs in 10 starts/16 games, one game over 70 yards receiving, 2 games over 60. Good job, not great. Certainly doesn't justify any big contract for him.

maybe great is a stretch, but there is a difference between doing a great job and being a great player. anyways, im not gonna debate the good vs great thing, as its not really the point here. but i was basing my disagreeing on the fact he was a 2nd year player that barely saw the field and constantly ridiculed for seemingly not knowing what to do. then cooley goes down and he filled the starting role admirably in an offense that was very inept mostly. i clearly think he surpassed expectations that season. and thats the basis im using when disagreeing with you saying "Davis didn't do squat until he was playing for a contract." Perhaps Davis is slow to learn a new offense in the first year of it, but he seems to rise to the occasion when given a prominent role. Also, dont interpret this as me saying "lets rush out and give him a big bag of money right now". but i also think you have to take into consideration how the team around him was playing so badly and he was finding some success individually, he played well and it wasnt a contract year...

[akhhorus]

maybe great is a stretch, but there is a difference between doing a great job and being a great player. anyways, im not gonna debate the good vs great thing, as its not really the point here. but i was basing my disagreeing on the fact he was a 2nd year player that barely saw the field and constantly ridiculed for seemingly not knowing what to do. then cooley goes down and he filled the starting role admirably in an offense that was very inept mostly. i clearly think he surpassed expectations that season. and thats the basis im using when disagreeing with you saying "Davis didn't do squat until he was playing for a contract." Perhaps Davis is slow to learn a new offense in the first year of it, but he seems to rise to the occasion when given a prominent role. Also, dont interpret this as me saying "lets rush out and give him a big bag of money right now". but i also think you have to take into consideration how the team around him was playing so badly and he was finding some success individually, he played well and it wasnt a contract year...

He made 10 starts(and played in 16 games) in 2009 and 12 starts in 2011. The production was wildly different. We can point to Zorn's stupidity etc etc in 2009, but how much better(if at all) Rex/Beck+kyyle were in 2011? Did he find "success" outside of his contract year? Sure, but he was 20th among TEs in receiving yardage that year, 15th in catches. Don't overstate it.

[cal_junior]

I don't know if I agree with that. Getting injured is not something Cooley can control or prevent. On the other hand, Davis knows fully well that getting caught doing pot again will mean a lengthy suspension and a huge hit on his career. He can exercise control to prevent that from happening.

I'm fairly confident Fred won't get busted with pot again.

[Red Bear]

He made 10 starts(and played in 16 games) in 2009 and 12 starts in 2011. The production was wildly different. We can point to Zorn's stupidity etc etc in 2009, but how much better(if at all) Rex/Beck+kyyle were in 2011? Did he find "success" outside of his contract year? Sure, but he was 20th among TEs in receiving yardage that year, 15th in catches. Don't overstate it.

Dont understate it either...

[akhhorus]

Dont understate it either...

Antwaan Randle El made 3 starts that year(09) and had more yardage then Davis.

[DaveKShape]

Graham and Gates weren't drafted.

Graham was a 3rd round pick. You been hangin' with Freddy during the offseason???

[akhhorus]

Graham was a 3rd round pick. You been hangin' with Freddy during the offseason???

Thats right, my bad.

[GloryHog]

IF(large, but possible if, in my opinion)...Davis puts up top five type of TE numbers this year (and he was headed in that direction last year, before his suspension) he will be a valuable commodity.

Under those circumstances, if he can be signed to a favorable contract including lots of incentives, I would say fine. That's a lot of if's before you get to that point though.

Depending on the health of Cooley and the development of Niles Paul, even if Davis has a great year, but can't be signed to a favorable deal, or they're not totally convinced his head is finally screwed on right, I would franchise him again and try to trade him. It would be foolish to just cut him loose without at least trying to get something for him. Tight end is becoming a much more highly regarded position.

Bottom line, I think it was prudent to franchise him this year, but there are to many moving parts and unknowns to say at this point in time, what would be the best course of action for next year.

[Red Bear]

Antwaan Randle El made 3 starts that year(09) and had more yardage then Davis.

randle el was used all season though as a target in the passing game, davis was not used often if at all as a target in the passing game until cooley went down.

[akhhorus]

randle el was used all season though as a target in the passing game

And what's Davis' speciality again? He's basically a oversized WR. The skins tried to find production out of Kelly(10 starts) and Thomas(10 starts) that year and ARE outproduced a regular starter in the receiving game.

davis was not used often if at all as a target in the passing game until cooley went down.

And even looking at Davis' stats from when Cooley went down, he only averaged 46 yards per game. He had 4 games with 3 catches or less during that stretch.

You can believe whatever you want to, but there's no way to look at Davis' 2009 and think he was a budding potential star player. Or to the point at hand, there was nothing in his 2009 production which would be evidence to contradict the statement that "Davis didn't show up until his contract year" because the Fred Davis of 2009 wouldn't have been franchise tagged. He probably wouldn't have been resigned at anything more then a 1 million a year over 2 years.

[Emmanouel8]

So, you think it was a bad thing that Davis had a productive season last year because that was a sign of "over" performing in a contract year? That logic is pretty difficult for me to follow. You would rather that he purposely went out and tank the season in order to avoid "over" performing in a contract season?

It should also be pointed out that Davis is still a relatively young player and I believe 2011 was only his 3rd season in the NFL. Perhaps, it just took him that long to become a good NFL player, as many young players do take a while to blossom. And, Davis' productive 2011 season had nothing do with "playing for a contract".

Of course its not a bad thing to perform well by itself or even in the context of a contract year. My conclusion was based on Fred's pattern, and that pattern has been pretty consistent with predicting a poor outcome.

[Emmanouel8]

Also, if I win I want this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIPEDREAM-Bachelorette-PIMP-CUP-Black-FREE-SHIPPING-/140735283960?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c47a02f8#ht_1247wt_968

Emmanuel can get me the one that says "BOSS"

Don't count your pimp cups before the pimp switch hatches.

[Emmanouel8]

I can't believe people are coming to Davis's defense.

This is Haynesworth all over again. He is unlikely going to change, he is unlikely to ever reach his potential, and he is very unlikely a top 5 player at his position.

For a modest deal maybe I'd keep him, but really what for, considering how likely he will be suspended, underperform, and become a distraction.

Fred thanks for the 800 yards, but you, your bong and bong accessories, and the pimp cups can go find a street corner outside of the DMV to conduct your popcorn endeavors.

[HanburgerBum]

I'm fairly confident Fred won't get busted with pot again.


Then, I am confused by your position. I believe you said Cooley's staying healthy is more likely than Davis' maturing.

I take "maturing" to mean FD's ability to stay "clean" from pot, because that is really the only kind of behavior the team should be worried about. Who cares about his dispute with an escort or pimp? So, Fred is not a choir boy. I am more concerned about whether he can produce on the field, not who fools around with off-the-field.

If you are confident that Davis won't be caught smoking weed again, then you appear to be "guaranteeing" that Cooley will stay healthy. I don't know of one player anyone can guarantee will stay healthy in a sport as violent as football.

[HanburgerBum]

Of course its not a bad thing to perform well by itself or even in the context of a contract year. My conclusion was based on Fred's pattern, and that pattern has been pretty consistent with predicting a poor outcome.


Well, Davis has been in the NFL for only 3 seasons. In his 3rd year--his "contract" year--he produced good numbers. How are you able to tell that he is just making the effort to play well in his 3rd season only because it is a "contract" season instead of just taking two seasons to develop into a good player--especially when he did not have a lot of playing time in his first two years?

Or, is it your position that every young player who blossoms in his 3rd season--if that is a "contract" year--by definition is only playing well because it is a "contract" season?

[jaylen]

Davis is a clown with low character. Problem with the sorta clown he is that mistakes will show up at the wrong times because he's not prepared to make the right plays. So he'll play on talent till he loses a step and flames outta the league.

He's not changing those guys never change.

[smave]

Then, I am confused by your position. I believe you said Cooley's staying healthy is more likely than Davis' maturing.

I take "maturing" to mean FD's ability to stay "clean" from pot, because that is really the only kind of behavior the team should be worried about. Who cares about his dispute with an escort or pimp? So, Fred is not a choir boy. I am more concerned about whether he can produce on the field, not who fools around with off-the-field.

If you are confident that Davis won't be caught smoking weed again, then you appear to be "guaranteeing" that Cooley will stay healthy. I don't know of one player anyone can guarantee will stay healthy in a sport as violent as football.

Maturing also involves waking up on time for work and not partying till 3am on game night.

He needs to grow up and do his job.

[Emmanouel8]

Well, Davis has been in the NFL for only 3 seasons. In his 3rd year--his "contract" year--he produced good numbers. How are you able to tell that he is just making the effort to play well in his 3rd season only because it is a "contract" season instead of just taking two seasons to develop into a good player--especially when he did not have a lot of playing time in his first two years?

Or, is it your position that every young player who blossoms in his 3rd season--if that is a "contract" year--by definition is only playing well because it is a "contract" season?

The performance in his 3rd year again is one of several items. Regardless, I don't buy that this is "only" his 3rd year. The position is TE, lets not make this more complicated than it is. The playing time he got in his first two season was probably what he earned. If your comfortable spending other peoples money on guys like Fred Davis then all the power to you and the other people. I'm not giving the guy a large contract and probably wouldn't even want him on my team at a modest one.

[HanburgerBum]

I can't believe people are coming to Davis's defense.

This is Haynesworth all over again. He is unlikely going to change, he is unlikely to ever reach his potential, and he is very unlikely a top 5 player at his position.

For a modest deal maybe I'd keep him, but really what for, considering how likely he will be suspended, underperform, and become a distraction.

Fred thanks for the 800 yards, but you, your bong and bong accessories, and the pimp cups can go find a street corner outside of the DMV to conduct your popcorn endeavors.


How do you know Davis is "Haynesworth all over again"? Fat Albert never had one good season in Wash. His transgressions were on the field, instead of the off-the-field variety in the case of Davis.

I am not as much defending Davis as I am opposing this absurd rush to judgment against one of our more talented young players for off-the-field transgressions that are not necessarily predictive of future performance. There have been plenty of "bad boys" in sports who were great players. The greatest baseball player ever Babe Ruth was known to be no choir boy in his spare time.

We should all be taking a depth breath and figuring out the best way to nurture one of our better young players instead of trying hard to dump him.

[akhhorus]

Davis is a clown with low character. Problem with the sorta clown he is that mistakes will show up at the wrong times because he's not prepared to make the right plays. So he'll play on talent till he loses a step and flames outta the league.

He's not changing those guys never change.

George Clooney once said that "you stop maturing when you become famous or get a million dollar check." I think he's right when it comes to Davis.

[cal_junior]

Then, I am confused by your position. I believe you said Cooley's staying healthy is more likely than Davis' maturing.

I take "maturing" to mean FD's ability to stay "clean" from pot, because that is really the only kind of behavior the team should be worried about. Who cares about his dispute with an escort or pimp? So, Fred is not a choir boy. I am more concerned about whether he can produce on the field, not who fools around with off-the-field.

If you are confident that Davis won't be caught smoking weed again, then you appear to be "guaranteeing" that Cooley will stay healthy. I don't know of one player anyone can guarantee will stay healthy in a sport as violent as football.

Freddy is immature in a number of ways - late for meetings, uneven play, celebrating minor individual success when the team is far behind, etc. Even if he doesn't get suspended I don't see him suddenly becoming a grownup this season.

[HanburgerBum]

Maturing also involves waking up on time for work and not partying till 3am on game night.

He needs to grow up and do his job.



So far as I know, Davis has never been late to another meeting or practice after that first incident.

As for partying the night before and waking up with a hangover to play, Babe Ruth did plenty of that. It didn't seem to hurt his career too much. Everyone is different. Some players can't handle the extra-curricular activities, others can. Why don't you worry more about what Davis does on the field than what he does in the privacy of his bedroom.

[HanburgerBum]

The performance in his 3rd year again is one of several items. Regardless, I don't buy that this is "only" his 3rd year. The position is TE, lets not make this more complicated than it is. The playing time he got in his first two season was probably what he earned. If your comfortable spending other peoples money on guys like Fred Davis then all the power to you and the other people. I'm not giving the guy a large contract and probably wouldn't even want him on my team at a modest one.


Regardless of positions, some young players take a while to develop. In his first two seasons, Davis wasn't starting because Cooley was. That was as it should have been, but it is not a strike against Davis that he didn't turn into a good player immediately.

Comfortable spending other people's money? Well, as a season ticket holder, I think I can make a case that it is partly my money that is being spent. But, regardless whose money it is, it makes no sense to rush into dumping a talented young player.

[akhhorus]

So far as I know, Davis has never been late to another meeting or practice after that first incident.

As for partying the night before and waking up with a hangover to play, Babe Ruth did plenty of that. It didn't seem to hurt his career too much. Everyone is different. Some players can't handle the extra-curricular activities, others can. Why don't you worry more about what Davis does on the field than what he does in the privacy of his bedroom.

So, now you're comparing Davis to Babe Ruth. This is getting comical HB.

Regardless of positions, some young players take a while to develop. In his first two seasons, Davis wasn't starting because Cooley was.

Besides 2009 when Davis started 10 games. So, no.

[cal_junior]

So far as I know, Davis has never been late to another meeting or practice after that first incident.

As for partying the night before and waking up with a hangover to play, Babe Ruth did plenty of that. It didn't seem to hurt his career too much. Everyone is different. Some players can't handle the extra-curricular activities, others can. Why don't you worry more about what Davis does on the field than what he does in the privacy of his bedroom.

Babe Ruth? Oh my. Suffice to say I'm not convinced he'll grow up and become the player he should be in a matter of months. I hope I'm wrong.

[smave]

So far as I know, Davis has never been late to another meeting or practice after that first incident.

As for partying the night before and waking up with a hangover to play, Babe Ruth did plenty of that. It didn't seem to hurt his career too much. Everyone is different. Some players can't handle the extra-curricular activities, others can. Why don't you worry more about what Davis does on the field than what he does in the privacy of his bedroom.

So far as I know, Stallworth never ran over another guy.
So far as I know, Plaxico hasn't held another gun.
So far as I know, Haynesworth hasn't stomped on anyone elses head.
So far as I know, Ron Artest hasn't punched another fan.
So far as I know, Albert Belle only corked his bat once.

Come on now...

[akhhorus]

So far as I know, Stallworth never ran over another guy.
So far as I know, Plaxico hasn't held another gun.
So far as I know, Haynesworth hasn't stomped on anyone elses head.
So far as I know, Ron Artest hasn't punched another fan.
So far as I know, Albert Belle only corked his bat once.

Come on now...

OJ hasn't killed anyone recently....

[smave]

OJ hasn't killed anyone recently....

good one, lol

[Keino]

I can totally see the Babe Ruth analogy. I mean Babe, pretty much singlehandedly resurrected a franchise and Fred, almost singlehandedly resurrected, um...Pimp Cups? Bong hits?

[akhhorus]

I can totally see the Babe Ruth analogy. I mean Babe, pretty much singlehandedly resurrected a franchise and Fred, almost singlehandedly resurrected, um...Pimp Cups? Bong hits?

One is arguably one of the biggest icons in the history of America(much less sports), and the other was a solid top 10 among TEs in catches/yardage in a single season. Look for HB's new book: "Why Matt Forte is as amazing as Jesus" coming to amazon soon.

[Lavar703]

So, now you're comparing Davis to Babe Ruth. This is getting comical HB.



Besides 2009 when Davis started 10 games. So, no.

I could be wrong Akh but I don't think he was actually comparing the two, just using Ruth as an example of a player who didn't seem to care about getting drunk the night before a game. Riggo was the same way unless I'm mistaken.....

[akhhorus]

I could be wrong Akh but I don't think he was actually comparing the two, just using Ruth as an example of a player who didn't seem to care about getting drunk the night before a game. Riggo was the same way unless I'm mistaken.....

Considering his past comments about Davis' potential, etc, saying that he was using Babe Ruth for comparison isn't out of line.

Even if you're right, its still a ridiculous comparison. On top of his "Chris Cooley showed his wang once, so you shouldn't condemn Davis for being a moron and a pothead" horsesh*t.

[Emmanouel8]

How do you know Davis is "Haynesworth all over again"? Fat Albert never had one good season in Wash. His transgressions were on the field, instead of the off-the-field variety in the case of Davis.

I am not as much defending Davis as I am opposing this absurd rush to judgment against one of our more talented young players for off-the-field transgressions that are not necessarily predictive of future performance. There have been plenty of "bad boys" in sports who were great players. The greatest baseball player ever Babe Ruth was known to be no choir boy in his spare time.

We should all be taking a depth breath and figuring out the best way to nurture one of our better young players instead of trying hard to dump him.

Okie... dokie, or in Fred's circle okie smokie.

I don't know what more to add other than the responses that have already been made :eek:

[akhhorus]

I know Davis is a risk. That's why I proposed a contract where a good chunk of the "guaranteed" money is back-loaded and coupled with a morals clause. That would protect the team from giving out a "stupid" extension to FD. Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't you big on trading for McNabb and for signing Atgowe? Now, you seem reluctant to re-sign one of our own more talented younger players even if the contract were designed in a way to minimize risk to the team.

And I'm saying that giving Davis big money is a dumb idea. Maybe you should listen instead of contradicting what you've been saying in the past.

Not true that Davis didn't start his first two seasons? Even your own answer "filled in for Cooley" in 2009 suggests that Davis was not the starter then.

He made 10 starts that year. He was the defacto starter.

Yeah, I know, you think most of Davis' yards last season were gotten in the 4th quarter with the team behind a bunch. I will admit that I haven't checked to see if that were true--assuming there is even a good way to check for that.

You can find it at a very obscure site called NFL.com. Just as a reference, in Cooley's last season as the full time starter(2010) Cooley(who had 77 catches for 849 yards that year) only had 7 catches for 85 yards when the skins were down big in the 4th. He had his best production in the 4th quarter when the skins were behind or ahead by less then a touchdown. I'll assume that you can take that to its logical conclusion.

But, it seems odd that he could have been on pace for 1,000+ yds and have most of that occur in meaningless situations.

At least try to make sense HB, please.


You are right that Cooley's off-the-field transgressions are not identical to those of Davis.

Then why bring it up other then to obfuscate the issue.

But, my point is that FD has not committed any truly serious malfeasance yet--at least nothing that would preclude him from being a productive player.

Besides the whole "one more strike and you face 16 games off, two more and you're gone for good" you mean?

I think there are very few choir boys in the NFL.

And? That doesn't mean that you should give out big money(no matter how its scaled) when you have one on your hands. By your logic, the skins should be sniffing around TO.


As for being able to pick up good receiving TEs easily, I don't think it will be the case in the future. It is becoming clear to every team just how important that position has become. The competition to acquire them will get increasingly tougher.

Except that the two best tes(production-wise in 2011) in the league were found in the last 2 drafts(3 of the top 4 with Hernandez). Can I hire a factchecker for you HB?

[Lavar703]

Considering his past comments about Davis' potential, etc, saying that he was using Babe Ruth for comparison isn't out of line.

Even if you're right, its still a ridiculous comparison. On top of his "Chris Cooley showed his wang once, so you shouldn't condemn Davis for being a moron and a pothead" horsesh*t.

I may condemn someone for being a moron but not for being a pothead. I know plenty of productive people that smoke marijuana pretty regularly.

[akhhorus]

I may condemn someone for being a moron but not for being a pothead. I know plenty of productive people that smoke marijuana pretty regularly.

And if Fred Davis was your VP of marketing, that would be a legit point to bring up. In the NFL, Fred is facing a full season off if he gets caught again and that potentially hurts the redskins. I'm still confused why that's so hard to understand. Davis and Williams tested positive nearly 8-10 times after they were told that they were caught during the lockout. To think that they'll suddenly stop is pushing wishful thinking.

[Keino]

I may condemn someone for being a moron but not for being a pothead. I know plenty of productive people that smoke marijuana pretty regularly.

The problem is if he is caught we are having a player who will be suspended for a year counting against our cap. I am with you and I am pretty open around here about my own pot smoking. I have job and am generally a responsible person in that I support my family as the one and only breadwinner and I blaze daily. But I can appear in court and know the date if asked. I don't miss meetings citing alarm clock issues. Some of Freddy's issues are maturity issues, but even as a 21 year old pothead, I didn't oversleep accidentally and miss a class or work.

As a fan of a the team, I don't trust a player who gets popped with dirty piss, gets a free pass due to a technicality and then gets popped numerous times after that causing a 4 game suspension and then goes on to embarrass himself and the organization with these Romper Room styled pro se litigation tactics.

[Lavar703]

And if Fred Davis was your VP of marketing, that would be a legit point to bring up. In the NFL, Fred is facing a full season off if he gets caught again and that potentially hurts the redskins. I'm still confused why that's so hard to understand. Davis and Williams tested positive nearly 8-10 times after they were told that they were caught during the lockout. To think that they'll suddenly stop is pushing wishful thinking.

That's where the whole "moron" thing comes into play with Fred. I was simply defending people who like to smoke marijuana recreationally, not Fred.

[Emmanouel8]

That's where the whole "moron" thing comes into play with Fred. I was simply defending people who like to smoke marijuana recreationally, not Fred.

The "moron" thing comes from a long list of items.

[Lavar703]

The "moron" thing comes from a long list of items.

You do realize that's exactly what I was agreeing with?

[akhhorus]

That's where the whole "moron" thing comes into play with Fred. I was simply defending people who like to smoke marijuana recreationally, not Fred.

The moron part refers to his legal career, not the pot.

[Emmanouel8]

You do realize that's exactly what I was agreeing with?

I guess we're in agreement then. Fred is a moron.

[Lavar703]

The moron part refers to his legal career, not the pot.

I agree with that and have done so throughout this thread.

[akhhorus]

I guess we're in agreement then. Fred is a moron.

Hey, however smart someone is or is not is an issue for them in the privacy of their home. I know plenty of morons that I work with, I don't think anyone should be judging Davis because he's a few fries short of a happy meal.

I agree with that and have done so throughout this thread.

So you agree that Davis' actions are questionable enough to cast doubt on his ability to make good decisions?

[Lavar703]

Hey, however smart someone is or is not is an issue for them in the privacy of their home. I know plenty of morons that I work with, I don't think anyone should be judging Davis because he's a few fries short of a happy meal.



So you agree that Davis' actions are questionable enough to cast doubt on his ability to make good decisions?

I told you before I would be incredibly leery of giving Fred a long-term deal, the only thing I have argued for was his talent. Like I said before, Allen is in an unenviable situation with Davis.

[Emmanouel8]

I told you before I would be incredibly leery of giving Fred a long-term deal, the only thing I have argued for was his talent. Like I said before, Allen is in an unenviable situation with Davis.

I think the situation is pretty straightforward. Matlock stunt-double, pimp awareness, elementary school maturity, and bong apparell on one hand, or something else. I think Allen will be leaning heavily on something else.

Who knows.

[akhhorus]

I told you before I would be incredibly leery of giving Fred a long-term deal, the only thing I have argued for was his talent. Like I said before, Allen is in an unenviable situation with Davis.

Maybe and you and Shanahan(not allen) should toke up so they calm down before making a decision on Davis? lol.

[Lavar703]

Maybe and you and Shanahan(not allen) should toke up so they calm down before making a decision on Davis? lol.

I don't smoke though lol.

[Lavar703]

I think the situation is pretty straightforward. Matlock stunt-double, pimp awareness, elementary school maturity, and bong apparell on one hand, or something else. I think Allen will be leaning heavily on something else.

Who knows.

I won't be heartbroken if Fred leaves, however I don't want to see people giving the staff crap if they let him go and he becomes a top 5 player at his position.

[smave]

I won't be heartbroken if Fred leaves or isn't re-signed.

I will however be hurt if Cooley is cut or released so that Fred can start this year. Cooley, imo, has been the only sure thing we have had on offense since he came into the league and has been our lone shining star.

Here is to hoping a great Redskin such as Cooley is healthy and ready to play.

[Emmanouel8]

I won't be heartbroken if Fred leaves, however I don't want to see people giving the staff crap if they let him go and he becomes a top 5 player at his position.

Don't worry neither is likely to happen. Good riddance.

[Lavar703]

I won't be heartbroken if Fred leaves or isn't re-signed.

I will however be hurt if Cooley is cut or released so that Fred can start this year. Cooley, imo, has been the only sure thing we have had on offense since he came into the league and has been our lone shining star.

Here is to hoping a great Redskin such as Cooley is healthy and ready to play.

Players get old and breakdown after years of punishing hits, that's just the nature of the game. Players come and go, I will forever be a fan of the Redskins, regardless of who puts on the uniform.

[smave]

Players get old and breakdown after years of punishing hits, that's just the nature of the game. Players come and go, I will forever be a fan of the Redskins, regardless of who puts on the uniform.

Even Big Al?!

[justinskins]

I think Davis will either clean up his act and play well this year, in which case he gets rewarded with a fat contract, or he won't and he'll end up with a meager contract, probably somewhere else.

[HanburgerBum]

Freddy is immature in a number of ways - late for meetings, uneven play, celebrating minor individual success when the team is far behind, etc. Even if he doesn't get suspended I don't see him suddenly becoming a grownup this season.


Yes, Davis is immature in a number of ways. So what? There are plenty of immature players in the NFL. If a player's immaturity does negatively impact upon his performance on the field, he can be a thumb-sucking baby for all I care.

[cal_junior]

If a player's immaturity does negatively impact upon his performance on the field, he can be a thumb-sucking baby for all I care.

I don't agree with your premise. He's underachieved for years.

[HanburgerBum]

So, now you're comparing Davis to Babe Ruth. This is getting comical HB.



Besides 2009 when Davis started 10 games. So, no.



It should be pretty obvious to any fair-minded person that I wasn't comparing Davis' skill set with that of Babe Ruth. I was making the point that even a great player can be immature off the field. Ruth was no choir boy, and he did many things which people felt would negatively impact upon his fitness and adversely affect his job performance. But, it didn't.

As for Davis starting 10 games in 2009, that was his rookie season. Many rookies don't perform well. The next season, Cooley returned as the starter and Davis' playing time was significantly reduced. So, I think a case can be made that FD developed in a normal way and became productive in his third season.

[akhhorus]

It should be pretty obvious to any fair-minded person that I wasn't comparing Davis' skill set with that of Babe Ruth. I was making the point that even a great player can be immature off the field. Ruth was no choir boy, and he did many things which people felt would negatively impact upon his fitness and adversely affect his job performance. But, it didn't.


Your comparison is still asinine on the face of it. Davis plays a sport which requires far more prep work and physical skill then Babe Ruth needed.

As for Davis starting 10 games in 2009, that was his rookie season. Many rookies don't perform well.

Again, can I hire you a factchecker? 2008 was his rookie year.

[HanburgerBum]

Babe Ruth? Oh my. Suffice to say I'm not convinced he'll grow up and become the player he should be in a matter of months. I hope I'm wrong.


I don't know either whether Davis will be a star player down the road. But, my point is why the rush to judgment? It is not as if this team is just chuck full of talented young players and we can discard one without worrying about it.

[cal_junior]

I don't know either whether Davis will be a star player down the road. But, my point is why the rush to judgment? It is not as if this team is just chuck full of talented young players and we can discard one without worrying about it.

I've never advocated getting rid Davis. In fact I specifically said the opposite.

[HanburgerBum]

So far as I know, Stallworth never ran over another guy.
So far as I know, Plaxico hasn't held another gun.
So far as I know, Haynesworth hasn't stomped on anyone elses head.
So far as I know, Ron Artest hasn't punched another fan.
So far as I know, Albert Belle only corked his bat once.

Come on now...


Talk about absurd comparisons to Davis' transgressions!

[HanburgerBum]

I can totally see the Babe Ruth analogy. I mean Babe, pretty much singlehandedly resurrected a franchise and Fred, almost singlehandedly resurrected, um...Pimp Cups? Bong hits?


Again, I was not comparing Davis' skill set to that of Ruth.

[HanburgerBum]

I could be wrong Akh but I don't think he was actually comparing the two, just using Ruth as an example of a player who didn't seem to care about getting drunk the night before a game. Riggo was the same way unless I'm mistaken.....



Ah, a fair-minded person!

[HanburgerBum]

And I'm saying that giving Davis big money is a dumb idea. Maybe you should listen instead of contradicting what you've been saying in the past.



He made 10 starts that year. He was the defacto starter.



You can find it at a very obscure site called NFL.com. Just as a reference, in Cooley's last season as the full time starter(2010) Cooley(who had 77 catches for 849 yards that year) only had 7 catches for 85 yards when the skins were down big in the 4th. He had his best production in the 4th quarter when the skins were behind or ahead by less then a touchdown. I'll assume that you can take that to its logical conclusion.



At least try to make sense HB, please.



Then why bring it up other then to obfuscate the issue.



Besides the whole "one more strike and you face 16 games off, two more and you're gone for good" you mean?



And? That doesn't mean that you should give out big money(no matter how its scaled) when you have one on your hands. By your logic, the skins should be sniffing around TO.




Except that the two best tes(production-wise in 2011) in the league were found in the last 2 drafts(3 of the top 4 with Hernandez). Can I hire a factchecker for you HB?



I was not saying the Skins should give Davis big money without conditions attached. And, I don't know what you are referring to about contradicting my past positions.

When Davis made 10 starts, he was a rookie. Moreover, FD's first three seasons haven't exactly been as a part of some great passing offense with elite QBs throwing to him--and that includes washed-up Donovan.

I will take your word that a lot of Davis' yardage came with the Skins trailing by sizable margins. Despite that, he showed enough potential to be a very good receiving TE at this level. Cooley is aging and now injury-prone. Paul hasn't shown he can play as a TE in the NFL. So, I think it makes a lot of sense to keep Davis so long as the contract has strings to protect the team.

I brought up Cooley's off-the-field incidents, because they were also distractions of a minor nature--just as I believe Davis' incidents are. Of course, the pot-smoking is more serious and can derail his career. That's why the Skins need to structure any contract to take that into account.

Yes, some really good TEs have been found in rounds 2-4. But, that doesn't mean the Skins can necessarily find them in the future. Davis is already one on the roster.

[HanburgerBum]

I won't be heartbroken if Fred leaves, however I don't want to see people giving the staff crap if they let him go and he becomes a top 5 player at his position.


It was only last year that a lot of us here were sour on Carlos Rogers and were gleeful how the Skins made very little effort to re-sign him. Now, he is a pro bowler with the Niners and catching interceptions too.

[HanburgerBum]

I don't agree with your premise. He's underachieved for years.


Underachieved for years? Davis has played only 3 seasons. He was a rookie in 2009, had reduced playing time in 2010 and put up good numbers in 2011.

[akhhorus]

I was not saying the Skins should give Davis big money without conditions attached. And, I don't know what you are referring to about contradicting my past positions.


You can't complain about the skins giving out big contracts to players with warning signs without looking at the details of it in the future if you're fine giving out a contract to Davis with clauses to protect the skins.

When Davis made 10 starts, he was a rookie. Moreover, FD's first three seasons haven't exactly been as a part of some great passing offense with elite QBs throwing to him--and that includes washed-up Donovan.

1. You're still wrong about Davis being a rookie in 2009
2. 4 seasons.
3. By that logic, Davis should have struggled with the worst Qbs that the skins have had in town in his 4 seasons in DC, Rex/beck. But he had his best season. Logicus failus.

I will take your word that a lot of Davis' yardage came with the Skins trailing by sizable margins. Despite that, he showed enough potential to be a very good receiving TE at this level.
Cooley is aging and now injury-prone. Paul hasn't shown he can play as a TE in the NFL. So, I think it makes a lot of sense to keep Davis so long as the contract has strings to protect the team.


I think that the skins can find a young TE who only shows up when the game is effectively over without much difficulty.

I brought up Cooley's off-the-field incidents, because they were also distractions of a minor nature--just as I believe Davis' incidents are. Of course, the pot-smoking is more serious and can derail his career. That's why the Skins need to structure any contract to take that into account.

If Davis' incidents are "of a minor nature," then how could they "derail his career" and why would the skins "need to structure any contract" if his incidents are "minor?"

You can't have things both ways HB.

Yes, some really good TEs have been found in rounds 2-4. But, that doesn't mean the Skins can necessarily find them in the future. Davis is already one on the roster.

Making 5.54 million this year(probably 7.5 million next year with Gronk's contract if they tag him again). I'd rather roll the dice with a young TE+Cooley then to pay Davis that much cash.

[cal_junior]

Underachieved for years? Davis has played only 3 seasons. He was a rookie in 2009, had reduced playing time in 2010 and put up good numbers in 2011.

His first year playing football wasn't his rookie season with the Skins.

[HanburgerBum]

Your comparison is still asinine on the face of it. Davis plays a sport which requires far more prep work and physical skill then Babe Ruth needed.



Again, can I hire you a factchecker? 2008 was his rookie year.



If 2008 was his rookie seaon, I stand corrected. But, the fact remains that he has pretty much shared playing time with Cooley--in fact, mostly less than Cooley when both were healthy. So, I don't regard his "blossoming" in his 4th season to be unduly delayed.

[Keino]

Again, I was not comparing Davis' skill set to that of Ruth.

I should hope not, since they play entirely different sports requiring different sets of skills.

You were talking about Ruth's propensity to party and womanize I suppose. I don't think anyone would care about Fred partying so long as he was not suspended for it and he produced the way Ruth did.

[akhhorus]

If 2008 was his rookie seaon, I stand corrected. But, the fact remains that he has pretty much shared playing time with Cooley--in fact, mostly less than Cooley when both were healthy. So, I don't regard his "blossoming" in his 4th season to be unduly delayed.

You can have that opinion if you want to. The facts are that Davis started 10 games in his 2nd year and looked merely okay. When he was playing for a contract, he decided to post some stats. This+pot+general laziness means that Davis is a major risk to give any large contract to.

[cal_junior]

the fact remains that he has pretty much shared playing time with Cooley--in fact, mostly less than Cooley when both were healthy.

And the reason for that fact isn't that Cooley is such a fantastic player.

[HanburgerBum]

I've never advocated getting rid Davis. In fact I specifically said the opposite.


But, you have repeatedly alluded to his immaturity and under-achieving. If you don't want to dump him, what do you want to do with him?

[cal_junior]

But, you have repeatedly alluded to his immaturity and under-achieving. If you don't want to dump him, what do you want to do with him?

I don't want to do anything with him at the moment. Let's see how the season plays itself out.

[HanburgerBum]

You can't complain about the skins giving out big contracts to players with warning signs without looking at the details of it in the future if you're fine giving out a contract to Davis with clauses to protect the skins.



1. You're still wrong about Davis being a rookie in 2009
2. 4 seasons.
3. By that logic, Davis should have struggled with the worst Qbs that the skins have had in town in his 4 seasons in DC, Rex/beck. But he had his best season. Logicus failus.



I think that the skins can find a young TE who only shows up when the game is effectively over without much difficulty.



If Davis' incidents are "of a minor nature," then how could they "derail his career" and why would the skins "need to structure any contract" if his incidents are "minor?"

You can't have things both ways HB.



Making 5.54 million this year(probably 7.5 million next year with Gronk's contract if they tag him again). I'd rather roll the dice with a young TE+Cooley then to pay Davis that much cash.



Fair enough. If the Skins give up extensions to a player with warning signs in the future, they should do so with strings attached. I will agree with that.

What I was trying to say is that I think Davis' numbers last season are particularly impressive considering how mediocre/poor the overall passing game and the QBs are. It took FD a while to develop, but I think from this point on he will be a good receiving TE in the NFL.

Davis' pot offense is a serious one with respect to his NFL career, but the other stuff is minor. And, the team can protect itself against Davis re-offending on pot.

I am not necessarily advocating putting the franchise tag on Davis again next season. I think he can be signed to a 4-5 year extension for about 20+ mil with most of the guaranteed money coming towards the last two seasons and protected by a morals clause. That would be a fairly reasonable deal for both sides. I don't want Davis to leave and become a pro bowler like Carlos Rogers did.

[HanburgerBum]

His first year playing football wasn't his rookie season with the Skins.


My bad. I thought he was a rookie in 2009 instead of 2008.

[akhhorus]

Fair enough. If the Skins give up extensions to a player with warning signs in the future, they should do so with strings attached. I will agree with that.

I won't be holding my breath that you'll be consistent.

What I was trying to say is that I think Davis' numbers last season are particularly impressive considering how mediocre/poor the overall passing game and the QBs are.

Except that he looked the most mediocre with the best QB he had throwing to him.

It took FD a while to develop, but I think from this point on he will be a good receiving TE in the NFL.

Thats why I bring up when he's putting up his stats, especially in relation to Cooley being the opposite. And it didn't take Davis "awhile to develop" he just needed a financial reason to give a crap.

Davis' pot offense is a serious one with respect to his NFL career, but the other stuff is minor.

So his issues are serious then?

And, the team can protect itself against Davis re-offending on pot.


Why would Davis sign some contract with little to no signing bonus money(which the skins couldn't get back once they give it to him) when someone else would be dumb enough to write him a big check up front.

I am not necessarily advocating putting the franchise tag on Davis again next season. I think he can be signed to a 4-5 year extension for about 20+ mil with most of the guaranteed money coming towards the last two seasons and protected by a morals clause. That would be a fairly reasonable deal for both sides.

Giving Davis that much cash would be insane. And I seriously doubt that any NFL team could put in a "morals clause" in any contract for anything less then major felonies. A suspension isn't enough.

I don't want Davis to leave and become a pro bowler like Carlos Rogers did.

Haynesworth was arguably the best DT in football when he was playing for a contract. How'd that work out? And Davis isn't the discussion for best TE in football.

[HanburgerBum]

I should hope not, since they play entirely different sports requiring different sets of skills.

You were talking about Ruth's propensity to party and womanize I suppose. I don't think anyone would care about Fred partying so long as he was not suspended for it and he produced the way Ruth did.


Yes, baseball and football are different. But, both sports have had plenty of "bad boys" who were star players.

The only thing people should be concerned about Davis is his re-offending on pot. I am worried about that as well, and that's why I wouldn't give him an extension without strings attached.

However, if you would remember, this whole thread started about his battle in court with an escort/pimp, where Fred did not exactly cover himself with glory. But, to me, this stuff is irrelevant and should not have re-kindled the rush to dump Davis.

[HanburgerBum]

You can have that opinion if you want to. The facts are that Davis started 10 games in his 2nd year and looked merely okay. When he was playing for a contract, he decided to post some stats. This+pot+general laziness means that Davis is a major risk to give any large contract to.


I think Davis warrants taking a chance on--if the extension comes with strings attached. You don't think he is worth the risk. Fair enough.

[akhhorus]

However, if you would remember, this whole thread started about his battle in court with an escort/pimp, where Fred did not exactly cover himself with glory. But, to me, this stuff is irrelevant and should not have re-kindled the rush to dump Davis.

The reason why it matters is twofold:
1-It seriously calls into question Davis' judgment. Blame the pot, but he wasn't stoned 24 hours a day, was he?
2-It even more seriously calls into question his judgment that he didn't settle or get a lawyer as soon as the story became public.

If Davis is too stupid to see what this is doing to his reputation, he's too stupid to be a long term asset for the skins.


I think Davis warrants taking a chance on--if the extension comes with strings attached. You don't think he is worth the risk. Fair enough.

Why would Davis sign any contract you hypothetically think could exist when someone else would sign him to an overvalued contract without these mythical clauses? Nevermind that the skins might be barred from these supposed clauses you want them to use.

[HanburgerBum]

And the reason for that fact isn't that Cooley is such a fantastic player.


It wasn't that long ago when Cooley was regarded to be the best thing since sliced bread. I think Cooley was definitely the starter (when healthy) during Davis' first three seasons.

[HanburgerBum]

I don't want to do anything with him at the moment. Let's see how the season plays itself out.


That's certainly one viable approach. But, if he has a big year, he will be very hard to re-sign and may have to be tagged again. My theory is that at the moment he would not be that hard to re-sign to a reasonable extension.

[cal_junior]

It wasn't that long ago when Cooley was regarded to be the best thing since sliced bread. I think Cooley was definitely the starter (when healthy) during Davis' first three seasons.

Fred Davis' talent with a different brain and work ethic is the Skins' starting TE almost as soon as he arrives in DC.

[cal_junior]

That's certainly one viable approach. But, if he has a big year, he will be very hard to re-sign and may have to be tagged again. My theory is that at the moment he would not be that hard to re-sign to a reasonable extension.

I'd rather pay the big bucks for a guy after he's shown he's worth it on the field. If he has a monster season in 2012, pay him what he's owed.

[akhhorus]

I'd rather pay the big bucks for a guy after he's shown he's worth it on the field. If he has a monster season in 2012, pay him what he's owed.

I don't think that the skins, in a rare moment of sanity, have any interest in bringing Davis back after this season. There were rumors that they were trying to sign him to a long term deal in March, now they aren't even discussing a deal with him. There's no upside to waiting for after the 2012 season to negotiate for Shanny: either they'll have to pay him a massive deal after a big 2012 season, tag him again at a much higher price or try to convince him to take a massive paycut from his franchise tag if he has a bad 2012. Looks like they're prepared to let him go elsewhere.

[cal_junior]

I don't think that the skins, in a rare moment of sanity, have any interest in bringing Davis back after this season. There were rumors that they were trying to sign him to a long term deal in March, now they aren't even discussing a deal with him. There's no upside to waiting for after the 2012 season to negotiate for Shanny: either they'll have to pay him a massive deal after a big 2012 season, tag him again at a much higher price or try to convince him to take a massive paycut from his franchise tag if he has a bad 2012. Looks like they're prepared to let him go elsewhere.

At this point I don't care a great deal either way. But if he puts up a 1,200 yard, 8-TD season in '12 I'm okay with signing him for more years.

[Keino]

Yes, baseball and football are different. But, both sports have had plenty of "bad boys" who were star players.

The only thing people should be concerned about Davis is his re-offending on pot. I am worried about that as well, and that's why I wouldn't give him an extension without strings attached.

However, if you would remember, this whole thread started about his battle in court with an escort/pimp, where Fred did not exactly cover himself with glory. But, to me, this stuff is irrelevant and should not have re-kindled the rush to dump Davis.

For me this whole affair raises legitmate questions about his judgment. It is his judgment that would lead him to make a decision to puff on another blunt. I actually like what Davis brings to the table as a player. It's the other stuff I cannot stand about him and these issues have manifested themselves in various ways throughout his professional career. Whether it's a TD dance after being down 3 scores late in the game, or puffing the Mary J. after being popped already, Freddy's immaturity and poor judgment scare me from the standpoint of hurting the team. You may not have been around for this discussion, but I was completely opposed to franchising Fred Davis, and this incident taken together with everything else tell me that I was correct in that feeling.

I would have let Fred test the market.

[smave]

For me this whole affair raises legitmate questions about his judgment. It is his judgment that would lead him to make a decision to puff on another blunt. I actually like what Davis brings to the table as a player. It's the other stuff I cannot stand about him and these issues have manifested themselves in various ways throughout his professional career. Whether it's a TD dance after being down 3 scores late in the game, or puffing the Mary J. after being popped already, Freddy's immaturity and poor judgment scare me from the standpoint of hurting the team. You may not have been around for this discussion, but I was completely opposed to franchising Fred Davis, and this incident taken together with everything else tell me that I was correct in that feeling.

I would have let Fred test the market.

Totally agree. Exactly my view on it.

[Lavar703]

You can have that opinion if you want to. The facts are that Davis started 10 games in his 2nd year and looked merely okay. When he was playing for a contract, he decided to post some stats. This+pot+general laziness means that Davis is a major risk to give any large contract to.

Just as Haynesworth was Akh, and you defended him almost to the end. It's not a knock against you but there is nothing wrong with wanting to see what Davis does over a full-season and then deciding on the contract...