Is Howard Dean a racist?

[IowaSkinsFan]

Dean wants to win the votes of "guys who have Confederate flag stickers on the windows of their pickup trucks."

1st of all, isn't that stereotyping, assuming that the stickers are in pickup trucks? Not every Conferdate flag lover drives a pickup. I would be outraged at his stereotyping! It can't be good for America when a Presidential candidate sets this kind of tone in his campaigning.

Of course, all of Dean's opponents in the upcoming caucuses were shocked and outraged, but I am sure they will all be buddy buddy when the nomination is handed out. Hell, one of them will probably the others running mate.

Talk amongst yourselves!

[RedskinsDave]

I'm on the other side politically and I think this whole thing is ridiculous. Anyone with a brain and without an agenda knows what he was saying. He was talking about a group of people the dems used to have and have lost.

Robert, you didn't use any smileys but I presume your stereotype paragraph was tongue in cheek.

[Ford]

No, Howard Dean isn't a racist. I can't stand Dean but all this fuss being made over this is rediculous and reflects how rediculous political correctness can get.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
I'm on the other side politically and I think this whole thing is ridiculous. Anyone with a brain and without an agenda knows what he was saying. He was talking about a group of people the dems used to have and have lost.

Robert, you didn't use any smileys but I presume your stereotype paragraph was tongue in cheek.

That's a big 10-4!

[BigCountry]

I'm not his biggest fan either but that was ammusing.

[Spence]

It was just a poor choice of words. Dr Dean should have said something like: "Democrats need to appeal to working class whites in the South" rather than suggesting that the party of the civil rights movement ought to be wooing confederacy enthusiasts.

The South and Midwest are filled with working class whites who agree with the Democrats on many economic issues, but have been peeled away from the party since the Civil Rights movement, after President Nixon and successive Republican leaders pursued what they called "the Southern Strategy."

Shutting up about guns is one way the Dems intend to appeal to these people. [Well, not Dean. He is not going to shut up about guns because he has an A rating from the National Rifle Association. He talks that up every chance he gets as evidence of his ability to attract the sort of people he was talking about.] In the end, though, there are limits to what the Dems can do to win those voters back. Many of them did, in fact, leave over racial issues and the Democrats cannot appeal to those people for two reasons:

1] the Dems depend on African-American voters;
2] it would be morally indefensible.

[Chief Seeway]

Did any of you see his slip up in New York? He caught himself mid sentence talking about the debate of the confederate flag here in.... almost said "New York" and slipped in "presidential campaign". Gotta wonder who writes his stuff. Or better yet, proof reads its.

[Chief Seeway]

Once the Dem race gets to the south, the other Dem canidates are going to slaughter Dean over his comments, poor choice or not.

[Spence]

Originally posted by seeway
Once the Dem race gets to the south, the other Dem canidates are going to slaughter Dean over his comments, poor choice or not. Latest poll I've seen shows Clark 10 points up on Edwards in South Carolina, which is the first southern primary. Like you, I don't see any way Dean wins that one. It kills Edwards, too, if he does not win South Carolina. It's his own backyard and he's not even trying to win in Iowa or New Hampshire.

[BigCountry]

That crack won't help Dean much, funny as it was.

[Keino]

I would argue that those driving around with Confederate Flags are the Racists......

[Spence]

Originally posted by Keino
I would argue that those driving around with Confederate Flags are the Racists...... Some of them certainly are. Others...I'm not so sure. There's a weird cultural/regional pride issue involved with that flag that northerners like myself don't understand. One of my good friends is a liberal from Tennessee [more liberal than I am] and she does not have a racist thought in her head. Nevertheless, she does NOT want to hear Northerners talking about the Confederate flag. It's just a sore point with her and is with many, many Southerners. For some, it IS about race. For others, though, it is a matter of cultural and regional pride. I'm not sure why, but it is.

The best thing that ever happened to the South was losing the Civil War, but it is a defeat some of them just cannot accept. I like Southerners, but I don't get some of them on the flag issue and I guess I never will. Maybe you have to be a Southerner to really understand.

[Keino]

Well I would have an issue with your liberal friend. That falg represents one thing and one thing only to me. Those who own it or advocate flying it their various states are sending the message to me that they long for the days when we N****** knew our place.
To me that flag represents 400 years of oppression, violation and cultural genocide.

[RedskinsDave]

That's the thing. Many of the folks who fly the confederate flag don't see as anything of the sort. They see it as a southern pride thing.

[Keino]

Pride in what?

[RedskinsDave]

In the South. You have heard the terms "Southern hospitality" and "Southern Gentleman" right? It's a regional pride thing.

[Spence]

Originally posted by Keino
Well I would have an issue with your liberal friend. That falg represents one thing and one thing only to me. Those who own it or advocate flying it their various states are sending the message to me that they long for the days when we N****** knew our place.
To me that flag represents 400 years of oppression, violation and cultural genocide. Well, I agree with you, Keino. I look at that flag and I see the same thing you see. And just for the record, my friend never displays the Confederate flag and does not own it. As far as I know, she's never expressed any fondness for the flag at all. Nevertheless, she does not want to hear you or me talking about it. I think she'd discuss it with a fellow southerner, but not with a northerner.

From what I can tell, defeat in the Civil War was the most traumatic experience in the history of the South. I think they see northerners going after southerners about the Confederate flag as rubbing their noses in the defeat. And southerners are very proud people.

All of us have something that makes us very sensitive, but does not necessarily make sense to people who have not gone through what we've gone through. [As an African-American, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.] I think that's what is going on with the Stars and Bars. At least, that's a big part of it.

[Spence]

Just have a look at the lyrics of Lynard Skynard's "Sweet Home Alabama" some time. For many southerners, it goes above and beyond race. They think northerners look down on them and attacking the confederate flag is, to many southerners, just a symptom of that. And if there is one thing southerners cannot stand it is being looked down upon.

This is puzzling for many of us northerners, who don't look down on southerners at all [almost all my living relatives are from Kentucky, which was not a confederate state, but is southern in every other way], but don't much like the flag either. Anyway, like I said, it's not something northerners really understand very well--including myself. Since I like so many southerners, though, I try to be understanding about it.

Maybe it is rather like the Japanese. You won't find many Japanese who will defend their fascist empire of the 20th century, but they sure as hell don't like being told how rotten they were. That does not mean they are fascists---just that they don't like it when other people make them feel morally inferior.

[RedskinsDave]

Sweet Home Alabama was in response to the slimy canuck Neil Young's "Southern Man".

[Spence]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Sweet Home Alabama was in response to the slimy canuck Neil Young's "Southern Man". Neil is actually mentioned in the song. Not sure why northerners got blamed for it, though, since, as you noted, Neil Young is Canadian, not an American from the Union states.

[Keino]

Im sorry, I cannot be understanding on this issue. The flag represents (besides the other things I mentioned) the Confederacy who took up arms against this Country. Any other group who take up arms against their country are viewed as Traitors. So am I to understand that Southerners take pride in being Traitors as part of their history? Or are they Proud of the fact that they went to war over States rights to own people as property? Lets not forget, the confederate states Seceded from the union...they weren't kicked out......

I don't get it.

[RedskinsDave]

It's like a family crest. Does that help?

[Ford]

Originally posted by Keino
Im sorry, I cannot be understanding on this issue. The flag represents (besides the other things I mentioned) the Confederacy who took up arms against this Country. Any other group who take up arms against their country are viewed as Traitors. So am I to understand that Southerners take pride in being Traitors as part of their history? Or are they Proud of the fact that they went to war over States rights to own people as property? Lets not forget, the confederate states Seceded from the union...they weren't kicked out......

I don't get it.

Don't make the civil war out to be simply about slavery. You don't want to do that. The first threats of succession came from John C. Calhoun and fellow South Carolinians over the nullfications process and the Tariff of abominations .. I believe around 1828. I can't remember if Jackson actually sent troops down to control them or just considered it. The South succeeded because there was a huge difference between the two regions back then, and they didn't like a northerner taking office and trying to tell them what they could and couldn't do. They likened it to being ruled by a foreign power. Prior to Lincoln they had a southerner, Buchanan, who more or less who appease their interests.

The civil war was never about slavery until Abe Lincoln decided to make it in order to keep the English and French from intervening on behalf of the Confederacy. With literature like Uncle Tom's Cabin, and anti-slavery movements strong in Europe, Lincoln knew that the populations of European countries would not defend a slave owning set of states once that was portrayed in the spotlight. Keep in mind that Lincoln said several times that he had no intention of interfering with the institution of slavery (he was far from the knight in shining armor history has made him), and that the emancipation proclimation was a military tactict. He allowed some border states (Missouri and maybe Kentucky?) to own slaves, even after the emancipation proclimation .. simply for the purpose of keeping them in the union. People portray the south as being the only racist part of the country despite the fact that New York threatened succession from the union and had massive race riots. Boston is one of the most racist cities I know ..

I don't support the confederacy, and there are many actions of it that were atrocious, but to make it out to be as black and white as a war over slavery is just not legitimate. That's not what the flag represents, it represents Southern Pride above anything. Should the American flag be shunned because it represents the trail of tears, or japanese internment camps? Simply applying one aspect of a nation to a flag and saying that is all it represents is not fair.

[Skinzaholic]

I have to agree with you, Ford.

When I was 12 years old my family moved from NY to Arkansas. It was a drastic change that I wasnt prepared for. I was beaten up several times those first couple years simply because I was from the "North". (The only Yankee I had ever heard of played baseball!).

Keino, although I can understand how you view this... it is only one small angle in a wide spectrum. I spent 9 years in Arkansas and have many friends who still live there. I am not so sure the Confederate Flag stands for supporting slavery as much as people would led us to believe. (I know Al Sharpton sure wants everyone to feel that way).

I know alot of people who display the flag just like I would display a flag of the Redskins outside my home. It is a relational thing... a sign of who they are, where they are from, what makes them tick.

To say that all of those people are racists simply because of what region they support is actually a racist comment in itself.


I am NOT saying that there aren't racist people still living in the Confederacy "Glory" days... but it is the same amount of people on the other side of the coin who attribute low intelligence to those who live below the Mason Dixon line.

It goes both ways.

[RedskinsDave]

That's right! We're some pretty fart smellers down here south of the Mason-Dixon!

[Keino]

Ford:

You are right in that the Civil War was about more than slavery, but ultimately that's what it was about. Just about every core issue in some way related to the Slavery issue from the Missouri Comrpomise to the enforcement in the North of the Fuguitive Slave laws. It was not my intention to dismiss as unimportant the Industrial versus Agrarian Economies which had as much to do with the regional differences as any political issue.

What I must take issue with is this. I never portrayed Lincoln as some great Emancipator as history has done erroneously. I am also aware that He had no intention of making the races equal or even ending the institution of slavery. The Emanicpation Proclamation didn't free a soul. As you correctly mentioned, this document did not apply to the border states of Missouri, West Virginia, Maryland or Kentucky. It also couldn't have applied to any of the Confederate states as they did not recognize the legitimacy of Lincoln as their president.
I am also fully aware that the entire United States has been and is a racist Country, and that racism is not limited to the South. Wall Street has it's origins as a slave market and my own city of Washington DC was segregated by law as late as the 1960's.

None of these facts sway or alter my view, however that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of an illegitimate Govnerment, and that those who fly it long for the days when Uppety Knee Grows knew their place and didn't question it. The Confederacy were Traitors to the United States and took up arms against the US. When the Black Panther Party and other so called militant Black groups spoke similar rhetoric (Forming another country) they were destroyed and blasted as racists and traitors. To paint the Confederacy as anything other than traitors to me applies a double standard, one in which I will not apply. Everytime I see that flag I want to spit.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by Keino
and that those who fly it long for the days when Uppety Knee Grows knew their place and didn't question it.


Quite a statement my friend. How many of those who display this flag do you know personally? How many have shared their personal ethnic convictions with you? Seems a huge leap to label all those who are proud of this heritage as "racists" simply to bring comfort to your current ethnic equality qualms.

I dont blame you one bit for how you feel. In fact, I would even go as far as to say that you have legitimate reasons for feeling that way... BUT to slap this extremely judgmental and racist comment on others who hold different values than you (some of which I know personally and who are great people with no racist bone in their body) is really unfair.


In fact... my very good friend from college (Steve) lives in Mountain Home, Arkansas... owns a brand new truck... has a confederate flag in the back window... and yet is the nicest guy you could ever meet. I bet you would like him if you met him Keino.

[Keino]

Skinz, I've said all along that is what the flag represents to me. Am I being unfair? Probably. Do I pre Judge those I see flying it on their Trucks/Homes? Yes. Probably Unfairly so.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by Keino
Skinz, I've said all along that is what the flag represents to me. Am I being unfair? Probably. Do I pre Judge those I see flying it on their Trucks/Homes? Yes. Probably Unfairly so.


And yet you get up in arms about people prejudging you due to the color of your skin.

Which pretty much sums up the racial atmosphere in America. Too bad Sharpton and Jessie Jackson and the NAACP cant see this.


Either way... I still like ya Keino!:D

[BigCountry]

Yeah white christians have always been the ones getting screwed in this country haven't they (sarcasm) There's a reason the NAACP exists.

[RedskinsDave]

Two wrongs don't make a right no matter how many excuses you try.

[BigCountry]

I never said the NAACP is wrong.

[RedskinsDave]

I was talking about prejudging people.

[Keino]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
I was talking about prejudging people.

Every human being pre-judges. Some admit it.

[RedskinsDave]

Then I expect you don't complain when it happens.

[Keino]

Ahh. But the difference is when those prejudices work to deny people rights and privledges. In other words, when prejudice leads to discrimination. To tie my point back into the Confederate flag. The Confederacy represents Bondage to those who look like me, so with that in mind if I view those who fly differently than those who do not, aren't I a tad justified?

My prejudices never work to deny someone an opportunity for Housing, a job or even the most fundamental right in a Democracy...the right to vote.

[BigCountry]

Which brings me back to my point. White Christians have had a whole lot to complain about. I'm not saying any form of racism is right but just don't forget what African Americans had to go through to get half the right you had since this country was founded.

[RedskinsDave]

That sure was a whole lotta hyperbole in both of those posts. I'm pretty sure no one here was ever affected by the Confederacy and I'm also quite sure I've had no rights you haven't during my lifetime.

And no Keino, you aren't justified.

[BigCountry]

I know you're not saying that everything has pretty much been dandy in the past century, I'll give you that much credit. So what was the point?

[RedskinsDave]

My point from the get-go is saying that prejudging people based on a flag they fly, hair style they wear or anything else is wrong. Keino is trying to justify his prejudice based on his perception of the Confederacy.

[BigCountry]

That may be, but what I'm trying to say it's been and still is a struggle for African Americans to gain equality so White people shouldn't get so sensetive when silly little comments are made because they've never had to fight for any equality. I'm directing this not to the racist crowd, but those who are like the people on this board who really do know better.

[RedskinsDave]

Another excuse. Maybe this should be in the "absolutes" thread because Keino said he believes in absolutes. Prejudice based on something as stupid as a flag is wrong, no excuses.

[Keino]

LOL Dave. Have you ever been followed around a store or harassed by cops because of the color of your skin? I highly doubt you've ever been made to feel like you and people like you were marginalized by the majority.
I love it when White people try to act as if White Priveledge doesn't exist in 2003 America.

As for the Confederacy and the Flag, I don't respect it nor do I acknowledge it's legitimacy. People who are taking pride or claiming Pride in what it represents must be prepared to take all that comes with it.....and part of that is the perception that they are racists. To argue that it represents a proud history and then to ignore some of the horrors that it represents is nice spin, but one that people like me will never accept.

Would I go into a bar by myself that had the Confederate Flag flying outside? Hell no. I'd be afraid to. IN that way I am pre-judging. Again, given the historical context....justifiable. I wouldn't however, deny someone the ability to feed their families, etc etc etc just because they flew the flag. Can you not see the difference or are you being intentionally obtuse?


One more point. If I flew a Nation of Islam flag (Assuming you know what it would look like) I am opening up myself for the perception that I am and Anti-semite or that I hated White people, regardless of whether either of those points were true or not. It comes with the territory.

[RedskinsDave]

You're right Keino. Did you ever see the skit on Saturday Night Live where Eddie Murphy goes out as a white guy and when the last black guy gets off the bus, they bring out all the drinks and good eats and he goes into a bank and they just give him money, well that's how it is.

I know racism exists but also some people get off calling themselves a victim. You're still coming up with excuses why your prejudice is somehow better than their's.

White privilege huh? I didn't get the memo. Were you ever denied the right to vote or feed your family?

[BigCountry]

I'm sure you're aware of what had to happen before he had that right.

[RedskinsDave]

I know that. I just don't like the implication that I've had it so much easier because I'm white.

[Keino]

I personally wasnt, no. My Father was as was my Grandfather. Im certain that you can see how that would affect our position in society.

As for White Privilege here are a few links.

http://www.amonhotep.com/2002/privileges.html


http://www.rootswomen.com/articles/whitebenefits.html

[RedskinsDave]

Two dissertations from guilty bleeding hearts sure sells it for me. Again, I'm not saying there isn't racism I just feel it's too easy of an excuse for any shortcoming a person might have and the further implication that I shouldn't have any for mine.

[Keino]

Well I figured I should proide you with links written by white authors as ones written by black authors could be easily dismissed as making excuses.

For the record, White privilege has existed from day one in this country. However, I was raised that just becuase someone has a head start in a race doesn't give me an excuse not to try my best to win. Acknowledging that the head start exists doesn't doesn't add or remove any of the merit in what you may or may not have accomplished.

[RedskinsDave]

I think there is more of an advantage based on one's family income more than skin color.

[Keino]

Right and before my generation, ones family's income was directly related to ones race. Where one could live and consequently where one was educated and more importantly How one was educated was also tied to ones skin color.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
You're right Keino. Did you ever see the skit on Saturday Night Live where Eddie Murphy goes out as a white guy and when the last black guy gets off the bus, they bring out all the drinks and good eats and he goes into a bank and they just give him money, well that's how it is.

I know racism exists but also some people get off calling themselves a victim. You're still coming up with excuses why your prejudice is somehow better than their's.

White privilege huh? I didn't get the memo. Were you ever denied the right to vote or feed your family?

Good points by all, but Dave: DO you really think that blacks are not more likely to be the subject of racial profiling than whites? Do you disagree that profiling like "Driving While Black" does not exist? Do you really think you are as likely to be pulled over for no reason except the color of your skin? I have read lots of stories regarding cops shooting a black guy who was pulling out a cell phone or his wallet, but never white guys. Do you disagree?

[RedskinsDave]

Black cops do it too. Can you explain that?

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Black cops do it too. Can you explain that?

Not sure if you are fright on that, but if you are, so what? Does a rich black guy pulled over in his own upscale neighborhood because he is driving a car "too nice" to be his own feel any less falsely persecuted becuase a black cop is doing it? C'mon dude, anwer the question: Do you think you are as likely to be pulled over, followed in a store, or shot by a cop for no reason as a black person?

[RedskinsDave]

No I don't. Why does it happen? You can't flat out blame it on racism when blacks do it to other blacks.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
No I don't. Why does it happen? You can't flat out blame it on racism when blacks do it to other blacks.

Then what do you blame it on, if not an increased expectation by someone, black or white, profiling, saying that because this guy is black, he is more likely to be doing something wrong? That will cause innocent black people to be treated differently than innocent white people, which is racism and wrong.

[Keino]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Black cops do it too. Can you explain that?

Dave I challenge you to produce evidence of this claim.

[RedskinsDave]

I'll find the study but it may take some time. I was a criminology major with a sociology minor just to let you know I'm not talking out of my ass. The study showed that in some areas where there were complaints of DWB's, black officers pulled over nearly the same percentage of black drivers as their white counterparts. There was a disproportionate percentage of black drivers pulled over but the race of the officer changed the percentage only slightly.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
I'll find the study but it may take some time. I was a criminology major with a sociology minor just to let you know I'm not talking out of my ass. The study showed that in some areas where there were complaints of DWB's, black officers pulled over nearly the same percentage of black drivers as their white counterparts. There was a disproportionate percentage of black drivers pulled over but the race of the officer changed the percentage only slightly.

That is interesting, but I still maintain that if a certain class of people are treated with less presumption of innocence, to the point of harrassment when they are not actually doing anything wrong but rather on suspicion becasue of the color of their skin, they are the vicitms of prejudice (does removing "racist" help?). Getting back to one, if not more, of you posts, you questioned whether a person was "denied the right to vote or feed your family" or the existence of "white privilige". I'd maintain that you cannot limit a discussion of denial of rights to voting and jobs, and that if whites are excluded from a certain type of harrassment, then yes, there is white privilige. Remember, we are talking about cases where innocent people are arrested or in the most extreme cases killed because of their race.

[RedskinsDave]

Exclusion from harassment is certainly not a privilege. Inclusion is wrong.

I'm trying to discuss the fact that some blacks carry the same prejudices that some whites do. I am curious why that is. There have been plenty of studies that show light skinned blacks treat darker blacks differently.

[Skinzaholic]

Really... what does it matter if the cop who is doing the mistreating is white, black, or green... it is still unfair.

I can totally understand people feelig anger toward the past regarding how a partcular race was treated due to the color of their skin.. but my problem comes in when ancestors of that race deem this mistreatment in the past as justification for them mistreating other under the same broken principle.

A comment was made that white people have never been subjected to slavery... well that isnt really true. White people were enslaved by other white people all throughout Europe during the Dark Ages.

Racism (in any form) is so wrong it is silly. It has always been around and it probably always will in some form. BUT, I cant control what others say, do or think. I can only control myself. I wont allow others (regardless of their race) to limit my potential due to their personal character flaws. That is what Martin Luther King Jr stood for.

Seems to me that racism would eventually die in America if people would stop pointing fingers and crying foul at every turn. That sort of thing does more to widen the gap then close it. That is why I have a strong reaction against this sort of thing and against the politicians/organizations I mentioned earlier... because they seek to continue dragging the past around in some vain attempt at retribution... and I think they makes it all worse.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Exclusion from harassment is certainly not a privilege. Inclusion is wrong.

I'm trying to discuss the fact that some blacks carry the same prejudices that some whites do. I am curious why that is. There have been plenty of studies that show light skinned blacks treat darker blacks differently.

I agree with you on the black-on-black thing to the extent it exists (and I do think it does), but some of your earlier points seemed to be that you, as a white, did not enjoy any sort of a leg up (perhaps it is because of possible economic or educational circumstances, you felt) on blacks. Stating that inclusion in harrassment is wrong does not obviate the fact that by being included (and I believe there are plenty of other ways blacks are discriminated against, too) blacks are descriminated against and therefore you do enjoy some advantages, namely not being descriminated against because of your race.

[Keino]

Wow. This discussion has taken a turn for the better. I have been slammed at work today, but Dave, I would like to address your question/issue.

SKinz, only through positive dialogue such as what you are seeing here will our differences get resolved.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I just want to say that this is by far my most successful thread I have ever started, well, except for the one that had the link to the Maxim girls, but that is another story. Thanks to everyone who contributed to my thread!