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PennSkinsFan
12-14-2003, 07:43 PM
Now, before you jump on me for my anti-Spurrier rhetoric that I spew every week, aI realize that alot in thei game was lost by the players...Hasselbeck, Gardner, Flemister, Bowen, etc...

But, take a look at facts.

We finished 7-9 last season. Snyder spent tons of money and we are now 5-9 and even if we sweep, which we wont, we will not even improve on last season. Not even one game will we improve, despite addresssing several offensive weaknesses and arming Spurrier with a offense he wanted. He is now 12-18 as a Redskisn HC, that a .400 percentage. Spurrier HAS YET to even win more than 2 friggin games in a row. The team goes 1-7 in id season, come back to beat up a very beat up Giant team to get shutout to the hated Dallas Cowboys 27-0 AT HOME????

Where is your case?

capitol_cop
12-14-2003, 08:11 PM
Before you get on Spurrier consider who we had starting on offense today. A starting quarterback who whould be a #3 anywhere else, a starting "running back" that just barely got drafted, and a patchwork line going up against the league's number one defense. Honestly, I didn't expect a win this week. I just hoped we would be competitive. I have been saying it for weeks, and I still believe that the players, not the coaches should be held accountable for our sorry season. True, injuries have hurt us, but Spurrier doesn't fumble the football (Zeron, Chad) and he doesn't throw picks. The system will be fine once the players in the system start to execute the system properly.

PennSkinsFan
12-14-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by capitol_cop
Before you get on Spurrier consider who we had starting on offense today. A starting quarterback who whould be a #3 anywhere else, a starting "running back" that just barely got drafted, and a patchwork line going up against the league's number one defense. Honestly, I didn't expect a win this week. I just hoped we would be competitive. I have been saying it for weeks, and I still believe that the players, not the coaches should be held accountable for our sorry season. True, injuries have hurt us, but Spurrier doesn't fumble the football (Zeron, Chad) and he doesn't throw picks. The system will be fine once the players in the system start to execute the system properly.

I remember the same excuses last season. "The system will be fine when the players are in place" and millions of dollar laters, the system still is not fine and not winning.

ShaggySkins
12-14-2003, 08:18 PM
This is the first time I've truly felt Spurrier has to go. Over the last 2 seasons I've given him the benefit of the doubt every time. But today was just too much to bare.

Spence
12-14-2003, 08:20 PM
The Cowboys were 5-11 last year. Now they are 9-5. Their roster is largely identical to what they had last year. Same quarterback. Same running back. A new cornerback and that's about it.

The Cowboys have Bill Parcells. We have Steve Spurrier. Draw your own conclusions.

Brett A
12-14-2003, 08:37 PM
I had supported Spurrior until today....He is bad...had no clue where the red flag was...

1. Jimmy Johnson (with full control)
2. Jim Fassel
3. me (hell I could do better)
4. Deion (hell he could do better)

Rat_Boy
12-14-2003, 08:47 PM
Snyder spent tons of money and we are now 5-9 and even if we sweep, which we wont, we will not even improve on last season. Not even one game will we improve, despite addresssing several offensive weaknesses and arming Spurrier with a offense he wanted.With all due respect.

We DOWNGRADED at QB, RB, DE and DT this past offseason.

Maybe we need to start looking at how Snyder is managing this team?The Cowboys were 5-11 last year. Now they are 9-5. Their roster is largely identical to what they had last year.Meanwhile, the Redskins usually get about 3-5 new starters on each side of the ball EVERY YEAR.

I have drawn my own conclusions.

We will not be successful until Snyder sells, or get's his head out of his brown eye.

NCskinsfanatic
12-14-2003, 08:48 PM
Fact is SS is a great college coach and I dont think he's happy here.I'm not sure if he's staying or going.I dont think we will keep Champ if we go to a new coach, unless he's Jimmy Johnson or someone proven.Im beginning to think an LA restructure isnt going to happen either for the same reasons Champ wants out.We may be able to restructure Samuels but only if he's willing to accept his play for the last 2 seasons has been far below what he's been paid.I guess my point is I have a lot of concern about this franchises ability to right the ship.I always will be a skins fan dont get me wrong but nothing Snyder does works,nothing.I dont know if its the coach,the players,the owner,vinny or all of the above but it isnt getting any better.If the skins were a sick horse someone would shoot it out of compassion and ship it to the glue factory.

Brett A
12-14-2003, 08:51 PM
QB...Ill take Ramsey over anyone we had last year
RB... Spurrior wouldnt use Davis when he was here wanted more speed Snyder delivered
DE... same ones actually better with upshaw
DT.... a down grade here but at least we arent on the hook for millions to D. Gardner like the Broncos are.

ShaggySkins
12-14-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Rat_Boy
With all due respect.

We DOWNGRADED at QB, RB, DE and DT this past offseason.


How did we downgrade at QB, DE, and DT???

I agree with you about RB. But at QB Ramsey has been good and this is the first game that Hassellbeck has looked bad. I certainly don't believe that this game would have been any better with either Weurfull or Shane Matthews who were both back there last year. At DE we have the same players as last year and we added Regan Upshaw and Peppi Zellner so I'm having trouble grasping how thats a downgrade. DT although were not good and we were better last year if we had Gardner and Wilkenson they would be no better then this years group. Gardner has only played in about 3 games this year and has reverted back to his troublesome ways so to have him back here would only be more destructive to the team. And Wilkenson has done nothing in Detriot to make me think that he is any better then anyone we have currently.

I don't like Snyder but he's gotten the players that Spurrier needed and wanted. If they aren't working out its on Spurriers head not Snyders.

Rat_Boy
12-14-2003, 08:59 PM
QB...Ill take Ramsey over anyone we had last yearMaybe talent wise, but Matthews clearly ran the offense and had more experience and better pocket poise than Ramsey. Of course, I still think Ramsey will eventually be light years ahead of anyone we had last year.RB... Spurrior wouldnt use Davis when he was here wanted more speed Snyder deliveredHe used him. Not enough, but he used him. Point is, we still downgraded at the position.DE... same ones actually better with upshawNo way I can agree with this. Upshaw has done nothing except help opposing offenses with his boneheaded penalties. And last year, Bruce Smith was more effective and a year younger. Our DE play better was better last season.DT.... a down grade here but at least we arent on the hook for millions to D. Gardner like the Broncos are.That's fine. But the FACT remains that we let go of Gardener AND Wilkinson, and replaced them with a bunch of other teams' bench players and no credible starter.

My whole point is, that you really can't blame just one person for this mess, unless it is Snyder. He hired all the people we blame day in and day out anyway.

Spence
12-14-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Rat_Boy
My whole point is, that you really can't blame just one person for this mess, unless it is Snyder. He hired all the people we blame day in and day out anyway. This is the point I've been making.

hail2skins
12-14-2003, 09:09 PM
I'm really a bit too pissed to respond to any threads. I'm just reading to catch up. This game was so bad you had Redskins fans fighting each other at the end. I couldn't believe it. Then people started throwing ice balls. A cameraman was hit in the fac e with one.

REALRICK
12-14-2003, 09:52 PM
Actually the Cowboys don't just have the same players.

The Cowboys have been operating by losing every year and drafting great defensive players for the last 5 years. Their linebackers and secondary are all home grown and drafted and NOW it is paying off. This was a young defense 2 years ago and since then they have added a great safety and a great cornerback. Plus their defensive coach is the same one every year.

The Cowboys and Parcell are winning because of their DEFENSE and not because of anything else. That defense is filled with number 1 draft picks, they have been togehter for a couple of years, and they have had the same system for more than 3 years.

So, saying that Parcells walked through the door and made the defense great is misleading. The truth is he walked throught the door and inherited a great defense. Parcells smartest move was to not change anything on the defense and keep the coordinator.

The Redskins on the other hand hire coordinators for 1 year...and turn over the defensive personell every year....and on top of that...they NEVER draft any defensive linemen. That is a sure fire recipe for the mess which we find ourselves in right now, and explains the difference between the BOYZ and the SKINS.

PennSkinsFan
12-14-2003, 09:54 PM
I blame Snyder for hiring Spurrier.

QB: Sorry Rat. We are way in disagreement here. I woudl take Ram over Matthews and Wuerffel any pathetic day in FEDEX. I will take Hass over either.

RB: YES, we greatly downgraded.

DE: Stayed the same. Don't see your point here.Just added Upshaw.

DT: Greatly downgraded.

OL: Greatly upgraded

WR: Greatly upgraded

S: Upgraded

Overall, there were upgrades, their were downgrades, and Steve Spurrier is no better, period.

JoeDaSchmoe
12-14-2003, 09:57 PM
Gotta agree with PSF here. My fear of going through another transition period went out the window after watching Parcells and Marvin Lewis turn their respective teams around in their first years coaching them.

Death_Venom
12-14-2003, 10:02 PM
Indeed it was a TRULY MISERABLE day for ALL SKINS fans.....The only glimmer of hope I saw that Rock Cartwright at HB (which is where he should remain!!!!!), our defense did an admirable job (i fell asleep after the 3rd quarter)........I am HIGHLY depressed over all this-my boys are in shambles-and NOW I have to wear a FREAKIN COWBOYS HAT all this week because of a bet i made against a COWBOYS FAN at work.......

PennSkinsFan
12-14-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by JoeDaSchmoe
Gotta agree with PSF here. My fear of going through another transition period went out the window after watching Parcells and Marvin Lewis turn their respective teams around in their first years coaching them.

Marvin Lewis is a picture perfect example of how a coach CAN make a difference, and how a coach HAS NOT made one here in DC.

Lets face it folks, Dan Snyder, for some odd reason, allowed are team to be used as a labratory for Steve Spurrier to test, hypothesize, and draw conclusions as to how his offense woudl work in the NFL. Well, conclusiosn are drawn, it is a failure. Why the Redskins? Why did we have to be the damn Lab?

I want a real NFL coach, I want a real NFL coach. I just want a real NFL coach.

Rat_Boy
12-14-2003, 10:03 PM
QB: Sorry Rat. We are way in disagreement here. I woudl take Ram over Matthews and Wuerffel any pathetic day in FEDEX. I will take Hass over either.I am not saying I would take any of the ex-Gators over Ramsey. I am just saying that their experience helped them last season, whereas Ramsey's inexperience hurt him this year.DE: Stayed the same. Don't see your point here.Just added Upshaw.This year, our DE's so far have 71 tackles and 8 sacks. Last year, our DE's had 79 tackles and 14 sacks. And this doesn't include Arrington at DE.

So, our DE's this year have not generated nearly the pass pressure as they did last year and Upshaw hasn't done anything to help. In fact, he has made it worse if anything.

So, my point is, that one of the biggest reason this franchise stinks under Snyder is because our offseasons have all been the same. We upgrade 2-4 positions while letting 2-4 other positions go down the toilet.

I am not saying Spurrier takes no blame though. See my new thread.

PennSkinsFan
12-14-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Death_Venom
and NOW I have to wear a FREAKIN COWBOYS HAT all this week because of a bet i made against a COWBOYS FAN at work.......

Case in point, another reason Spurrier should be axed! No Redskisn fan should have to endure such harsh treatment!

ShaggySkins
12-14-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Rat_Boy
This year, our DE's so far have 71 tackles and 8 sacks. Last year, our DE's had 79 tackles and 14 sacks. And this doesn't include Arrington at DE.

So, our DE's this year have not generated nearly the pass pressure as they did last year and Upshaw hasn't done anything to help. In fact, he has made it worse if anything.


Our DE's seriously benefitted from Gardner drawing double teams and forcing the QB out of the pocket. We haven't had a DT capable of drawing double teams on a consistent basis thats the difference between this year and last.

Redskinmayhem
12-14-2003, 10:41 PM
I sort of agree w/ shaggy. We had two Whale DT's last year that drew constant double teams. Think about it, Big Daddy and Gardener on any give play were tying upr four lineman, leaving Wynn and Bruce either free or marked by a TE or RB. And if the DT's weren't doubled, they causeed mass confusion about who to block. Kind of like La'Roi did to us today.

SkinsKY
12-15-2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Rat_Boy
This year, our DE's so far have 71 tackles and 8 sacks. Last year, our DE's had 79 tackles and 14 sacks. And this doesn't include Arrington at DE.

So, our DE's this year have not generated nearly the pass pressure as they did last year and Upshaw hasn't done anything to help. In fact, he has made it worse if anything.


I think this is a bigger indictment against the DTs because the pressure our DEs got last year was a byproduct of the double teams that Gardener and Wilkinson provided. With our new DTs, offenses can commit more to blocking the ends.

skins74
12-15-2003, 09:13 AM
Listen, our D-line sucks, coaching staff sucks and many of the players suck. FO sucks. We've got nothing.

Spence
12-15-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
I want a real NFL coach, I want a real NFL coach. I just want a real NFL coach. You're stealing my material. I don't mind, though. It's good material. :D

Spence
12-15-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by skins74
Listen, our D-line sucks, coaching staff sucks and many of the players suck. FO sucks. We've got nothing. But you like the color of the stadium, right?

hail2skins
12-15-2003, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Spence
But you like the color of the stadium, right?

Thank you for bringing a smile to my face. LOL

kempcolts
12-15-2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Spence
The Cowboys were 5-11 last year. Now they are 9-5. Their roster is largely identical to what they had last year. Same quarterback. Same running back. A new cornerback and that's about it.

The Cowboys have Bill Parcells. We have Steve Spurrier. Draw your own conclusions.

I'm with you on this Spence, You can talk about players until you fall out, it's about whos walking the sideline. A coach knows he's responsible for what happens and what fails to happen on that field and SS is not stepping up. I listen to Marvin Lewis after Cincy lost last week, he didn't let his team feel down and they responded this week thats coaching. Stevie needs to crank it up or move on.............

dj_stouty
12-15-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by JoeDaSchmoe
My fear of going through another transition period went out the window after watching Parcells and Marvin Lewis turn their respective teams around in their first years coaching them.

I respect what Lewis and Parcells have done with their teams. They have proven their worth to their respective teams w/out a flash of doubt.

However for every Marvin Lewis, there are many more coordinators who are hired as a Head Coach who don't turn around their teams. Jack Del Rio and Mike Tice come to mind. Del Rio has made his team worst (as if that was possible) and Mike Tice's 6-0 starting record has been dwindled to 8-6, after losing 6 of their last 8 (Inlcluding losses to the horrible Giants, Raiders, Chargers and Bears) and may not make the playoffs now.

For every Bill Parcells, there are many more veteran head coaches who are hired who don't turn around their teams. Marty S. and Dennis Erickson come to mind real quick. Marty has won less games than Spurrier has in the past two years, and Erickson has literally destroyed the 49ers after Mariucci's success with them the 2 seasons before.

As much as we all wished Lewis luck in Cinci, no one thought he could make them a playoff caliber team in one season. Same goes for Parcells. Most experts thought he would be good for another 2-3 wins...putting the Cowboys at the 8-8 mark after the 1st season. So it seems to me that us fans and the so-called football experts have absolutely no clue what the formula is for success is in this "new" NFL.

What is my point? My point is...who is a lock to walk into this Redskins organization and turn around this club? Another College coach? Another "up-and-coming" Coordinator? Another veteran HC? The answer is NO ONE. No one is a lock to turn around the problems of this organization, at least not in their first 2 or 3 years.

Well... you guys can make list after list of the guys you "swear" can do better than Spurrier. But the truth is, the odds are in the favor of that person or persons failing. ESPECIALLY in this Redskins organization. Are those screaming for Spurrier's head prepared to hear ANOTHER speach about a 3 year timeframe? Are you prepared to actually see someone else take 3 years? Or will you pull the plug on them in season 2 like you did for Spurrier?

I'm prepared to wait out one more season of Spurrier-Ball simply b/c I don't think we can do any better with the next "flavor of the month". Hell...at least we can throw a big middle finger in the faces of our underperfoming super-stars the next time they scream for consistancy.

So that's "my case".

PennSkinsFan
12-15-2003, 11:56 AM
I think we can do better DJ. I think we can do better with a coach that can do a few things Spurrier seemingly can not;

1. Make game preparations and adjustments. This team clearly played for the big dallas blityz, and when it did not come, we were in shock and Spurrier was simply incapable of makign that adjustment. The ripping in the media points to that flaw. He was out coaches and out smarted yesterday, period.

2. We can bring in someone that at they very least shows emotion and shows that they actually give a damn.

3. We can bring in a coach that make smarter decisions. Why, with Rock just off an ankle injury, Morton with the flu, would you put McCullough on inactive list???? What kind of decision is that???? This is JUST an examople of Spurrier really not having a clue about what is going on

dj_stouty
12-15-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
I think we can do better DJ. I think we can do better with a coach that can do a few things Spurrier seemingly can not;


I agree that Spurrier needs to adapt better in gametime situations. I'm also not sure why Sultan was inactive. Maybe his previous injury was affecting him? I'd love to know that from the Ball Coach, himself.

And as much as I would like to see Spurrier with more energy, I don't think it is ultimately necessary for success. There are plenty of "silent giants" who get their players to perform. Tony Dungy is the first who comes to mind...

But what I really want to know is; Are Redskins fans prepared to go through another coach...and give him the necessary time to succeed? I think the fan base expects instant results. It was evident...as soon as Spurrier hit his first 4 game losing skid...only 20 games into his tenure. Are we ready to roll the 8 sided dice that has "instant success" written on only 1 side of the dice and "potential for success" written on the other 7? Success stories like Lewis and Parcells are far and few between the "normal" coaching story. This Redskins organization has had such a storied past, that I don't think the fanbase can accept nothing but instant wins.

I know my opinion is in the minority, but I think the chances of improving this club with Spurrier is better than without for the '04 season. I just don't see any "Impact Player" available to be a head coach savior to this team.

Spence
12-15-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by dj_stouty
I'm prepared to wait out one more season of Spurrier-Ball simply b/c I don't think we can do any better with the next "flavor of the month". Hell...at least we can throw a big middle finger in the faces of our underperfoming super-stars the next time they scream for consistancy.

So that's "my case". Okay, DJ, I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I just want to understand you completely. It seems to me as if you are saying that there are no good options here and that keeping Spurrier is just the option which is less bad than the others. Is that correct?

Odyn
12-15-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by dj_stouty
I agree that Spurrier needs to adapt better in gametime situations. I'm also not sure why Sultan was inactive. Maybe his previous injury was affecting him? I'd love to know that from the Ball Coach, himself.

And as much as I would like to see Spurrier with more energy, I don't think it is ultimately necessary for success. There are plenty of "silent giants" who get their players to perform. Tony Dungy is the first who comes to mind...

But what I really want to know is; Are Redskins fans prepared to go through another coach...and give him the necessary time to succeed? I think the fan base expects instant results. It was evident...as soon as Spurrier hit his first 4 game losing skid...only 20 games into his tenure. Are we ready to roll the 8 sided dice that has "instant success" written on only 1 side of the dice and "potential for success" written on the other 7? Success stories like Lewis and Parcells are far and few between the "normal" coaching story. This Redskins organization has had such a storied past, that I don't think the fanbase can accept nothing but instant wins.

I know my opinion is in the minority, but I think the chances of improving this club with Spurrier is better than without for the '04 season. I just don't see any "Impact Player" available to be a head coach savior to this team.

I agree with what you have to say dj. It will take a few more years before things start turning around for us. I think that getting rid of SS and keeping him both have their pros and cons as we all have stated. The true redskin faithful will live through these tough years and come out on top. When you're at the bottom, there's only one way you can go...UP!!!!!

dj_stouty
12-15-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Spence
Okay, DJ, I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I just want to understand you completely. It seems to me as if you are saying that there are no good options here and that keeping Spurrier is just the option which is less bad than the others. Is that correct?

Pretty much. I think we have a better opportunity of bettering this team with the current coach in the '04 season than we do with a new one. I know this isnt' a popular opinion...but I am just tired of seeing a new coach in DC every 1 to 2 years. Its a pattern that hasn't produced any results...and I'm not optimistic at ALL that there will be any Head Coaches that can bear to work with Mr. Snyder that can turn us around.

Spence
12-15-2003, 12:53 PM
Well, I must say, DJ, that you've made the best argument for keeping Spurrier that I've seen. Unfortunately for Spurrier, you're damning him with faint praise, as the saying goes. Though I don't agree with your ultimate point, I do understand your thinking. But I wonder what Spurrier would think if he knew the best argument being made in favor of his retention is that the other options are even worse.

SkinsKY
12-15-2003, 12:56 PM
Lewis and Parcells prove this point. The right coach can turn a team around dramatically. There are many coordinators and former coaches who can't coach well or who can't turn a team around. We should remain with Spurrier if, and only if, we don't find a coach who is a coach of this caliber (ie one who has been proven to get results) or who is only marginally better than Spurrier. Spurrier is by no means a good solution, but even the better coaches would be hurt by the transition and we're only realistically looking at one more year of Steve three-and-out Spurrier.

Death_Venom
12-15-2003, 08:03 PM
I am sorrry to disagree with DJ-but SOMETHING has to change-this is the NFL-NO FREE LUNCHES!!!!

Until SS gets that thru his THICK FREAKING SKULL we are going remain playing at the same level we have been playing at. SS reminds ALOT of Norv Turner; great offensive schemes but does not possess the ability to lead his team........

At this point I am willing to undergo ONE MORE Coach-........WHY???

Hell hasn't that been the norm in DC for last few seasons anyways???

skins74
12-15-2003, 08:42 PM
To turn things around you need a coach who has the players respect otherwise they don't listen and do what he says. SS does not have the players respect and I don't believe you can get that back.

SkinsKY
12-15-2003, 09:18 PM
He would have show consistent change in the fundamentals of his offensive and coaching philosophies to win back the respect and I don't think we will do it. I think he can, but I doubt he will.

HollywoodKolt
12-15-2003, 09:37 PM
According to Spurrier on his weekly radio show Sultan did not play because they wanted to play John Simon. Perhaps Sultan was not as we thought he was?

Spurrier can clearly learn, he's a smart guy. The guy was running the ball early in the year. In fact against NE he was ripped for RUNNING TOO MUCH. The guy is getting NFL-ized

Frequently Spurrier's offense that "just doesn't work in the NFL" has gotten this team the lead only to have his defense blow it. Then the QB yes the QB panics and starts throwing deep when he gets the ball back. Against carolina there were shorter routes but Ramsey threw long 4 times. Against NO same thing with Hass. Coaches Coach Players play.

As for his gameplan this week he was prepared for the Dallas blitz the logical thing to prepare for but it didn't come. The guy ran the ball. YES he got away from it to early. But he really didn't have a choice and 14-0.