Once again everyone can...almost everyone can have an opinon.

[jporterweb]

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20031229-105705-1963r.htm

This is ridiculous. This kid spoke an opinion and although the one comment was a little off the mark(although not really that far). The teachers took offense so they are going to hang this kid to dry and that is just a load of BS. Teachers have no business saying some of the things they say here.

[Skinzaholic]

JP - this supports exactly what you and I have been saying all along... Freedom of Speech is a farse in this country... and the PC machine seeks to make that so!

I wish I could go to school with that kid and be there when those teachers make those comments.

[Keino]

Im sorry gents, but when you write things like
"Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America."

You are now offending every LEGAL Arab/Hispanic citizen, while ignoring the fact that this is a NATION OF IMMIGRANTS. He opened himself up to this harassment by espousing a racist point of view.

Freedom of Speech isnt the right to say whatever it is you wish to say. Freedom of Speech is the Right to say what you want without fear of Government Reprisal. With this freedom, comes responsibility. When you use this Freedom irresponsibly, then you pay the consequences. Cause and Effect. You cannot Yell fire in a crowded movie theater and expect that to be protected free speech.

This is Not a good example of the dangers of Politcial Correctness. I would love to have been able to read the young man's article, but I wouldn't expect the Times to provide us the actual piece and let us judge for ourselves.

[SkinsKY]

I have a severe disdain for ignorant people. He didn't say (according to the article) that he wanted a crackdown on immigation, just illegal immigration. I don't even blame the hispanic kids who cornered him as much as the teachers who refused to have the cojones to stand up for a kid who could suffer physical harm for stating his opinion. By doing that, they are allowing it and in some degree, encouraging it. I'm sure he would be fine if immigrants came, provided they followed INS's guidelines. This is one of those things that makes me feel ashamed (but more disappointed) that the country I love could treat its own like that.

[Keino]

That was my point about the Washington Times, KY. We should have been provided the article that the young man had written and been able to judge for ourselves. The quote specifically targets 2 ethnic groups. Are those the only 2 groups that enter the country illegally? It sounded as if he wanted crack down on These 2 specific groups.
By the same token, I would like to have been able to read the letter crafted by the Teachers and signed by 40 of them. The article is vague and in many ways misleading.

[lakewinola]

This is a very one sided story, I will withold comments until I learn more, instead of an interview with one party to this. My hunch is that this family has exaggerated here.

[SkinsKY]

Originally posted by Keino
That was my point about the Washington Times, KY. We should have been provided the article that the young man had written and been able to judge for ourselves. The quote specifically targets 2 ethnic groups. Are those the only 2 groups that enter the country illegally? It sounded as if he wanted crack down on These 2 specific groups.
By the same token, I would like to have been able to read the letter crafted by the Teachers and signed by 40 of them. The article is vague and in many ways misleading.

It is very vague and you are 100% correct about posting the original article and the letter from the teachers. My frustration with this, more than the article itself and the political views espoused by the student is that a student came under fire for stating a view, was in possible physical danger and the teachers did nothing to help. His view may be wrong, but he has a right to hold an incorrect view if he chooses.

[BigCountry]

Myself and anyone else who went or goes to a Cali high school can testify that the decision to let this kid take a few days off saved his family a hospital bill. Hell I wouldda been there to kick the crap out of him when he came back... The way he made the comment shows what's really going through his little faschist brain, not that topic itself.

[jporterweb]

You have got to be kidding me. The way he said it was wrong, but he meant that anyone can come to this country if they do it right. There isn't a damn thing wrong with that. There's nothing Facist at all about what he said, and if you think there is you've gotta a problem with your "little brain".

[Keino]

Jporter, Im not sure how you can tell exactly what he meant by the 1 sentence quote that was provided in the article. Here it is again:

"Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America."

Yes of course we do. Have you guys read whats on Lady Liberty "Send us Your poor etc etc etc". This quote implies that he has a problem with WHO comes into the country not HOW they get here. I have a BIG problem with this quote. Had I been given the whole Article, maybe I could see the quote in a different context.

As I said, the article is very vague. It's hard to formulate a well thought out, sincere opinion, because the Times did such a poor job of giving us the facts.

[jporterweb]

Keino, his mother was interviewed on the Glenn Beck(or maybe rush but same thing) program, and she says that it was worded and taken wrong. She wished she would've read it because she would've told him to take it out. But would it have been offensive if he would've said. "Liberals welcome every Tom, Dick and Harry who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America." If that is acceptable then damn it so is the other.

[BigCountry]

If I have the small brain then why couldn't you understand that what I said was the kid himself is probably racist, not the damn argument.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by BigCountry
If I have the small brain then why couldn't you understand that what I said was the kid himself is probably racist, not the damn argument.

I didn't say the damn arguement. I said he wasn't being facist.

[BigCountry]

Liberals let any Jose (not white) Jamul (not white) Muhammad (you guessed it) into this country. Either he's too stupid to know a better way or this is the way he thinks. I'm guessing both...

[jporterweb]

How many white immigrants are there coming to this country? Umm..WAKE UP!

Give your opinion for why you should be able to kick the sh*t out of him for his opinion, but it's still wrong to persecute him for that opinion. There was nothing racist about that in any way.

[BigCountry]

Not his opinion but the way he said it was offensive. Now everyone's gonna bring up how bad P.C is but would you do the same thing but if I said something like (off topic) they diversity cause they let too many crackers in you'd get offended wouldn't you?

[jporterweb]

No, I don't care what you call me. I am damn cracker so what. I am a hillbilly so what. Call me what you will I don't care. To want to kick the sh*t out of this kid because he worded something wrong is just plain bs. Think about it. Again I ask the same question. If he would've said "Liberals welcome every Tom, Dick and Harry who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America." would that be offensive? No because he's talking about all names that are common for white individuals. Well that's BS then, and you know why? Because now that is offensive to whites. This crap where people have to be so damn offended every time something small like this happens is bs. I've officially joined P.O.O.P. I am a member of People Offended by Offended People. I'm sick and tired of people getting offended over this and christmas and the ten commandments. Well I'm offended by those people because they won't allow me to have my beliefs because it offends them.

[BigCountry]

Ok that was harsh but trust me on this cause I've gone to high school in California and as you know it's one of the most diverse states in the country and also has one of the biggest latin american populations in the country. There was a HUGE reasons to fear for what might happen to the kid had he went back the next day.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by jporterweb
How many white immigrants are there coming to this country? Umm..WAKE UP!

Give your opinion for why you should be able to kick the sh*t out of him for his opinion, but it's still wrong to persecute him for that opinion. There was nothing racist about that in any way.

Plenty. I lived in NYC for fourteen years, and there are a LOT of illegal Irish immigrants there.

[jporterweb]

Whatever, I'm not going to play this little game. The point was made, it was a good point. If you don't like how he said it thats fine. But that is no reason to kick the sh*t out of him for his opinion. And how many of those Irish immigrants have normal American Names? That is the point. Sorry I said it wrong.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by jporterweb
Whatever, I'm not going to play this little game. The point was made, it was a good point. If you don't like how he said it thats fine. But that is no reason to kick the sh*t out of him for his opinion. And how many of those Irish immigrants have normal American Names? That is the point. Sorry I said it wrong.

I agree that he has a right to voice his ignorant opinion. Hell, I hate to agree with it, but Nazis have the right to say whatever they want. Why do I think so? I am a card carrying member of the ACLU. Proud of it too. I believe in civil liberties.

Regarding whether the kid is racist, if I had to guess, I'd say so but admit that I don't have enough info to make a positive statement. The fact that he used name typically associated with colored minorities (ooops, aren't Latin Americans the largest ethnic group in some cities?) sort of makes it look so. Also, from reading the article, it looks like all the info is basically the kid and his family's version. I am not sure he has been ostracized by teachers and administrators to the extent portrayed here. It does not quite pass the teast of reasonableness to me, but I admit it could be true.

[BigCountry]

I'm not saying what wouldda happened to him in school was right, I'm saying I promise you it wouldda happened and the teachers and admins saved his family a hospital bill.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by BigCountry
I'm not saying what wouldda happened to him in school was right, I'm saying I promise you it wouldda happened and the teachers and admins saved his family a hospital bill.

But you said you would've been right there with them. SO damn it you are saying that it was right. You said it... It's the teachers and admins jobs to stand up when the kid asks for help and help. Just cause they don't agree with his opinion doesn't mean they don't have that responsibility.

[Skinzaholic]

It seems ironically funny to me that everyone who stated the article did not have enough information (nor submitted the newsletter in question) to thouroughly examine what the teachers said... somehow found it very easy to take one statement that the student made out of context and justify labelling him a racist... and even admit you would have joined in on bringing him physical harm.

That is about as funny as the same kid getting frustrated by student threatening him day after day... so frustrated that he brings a shotgun to school and starts to shoot them.

America has been ruined by people with this mindset. Without even seeing the actual newsletter or the teachers rebuttal I can say how ashamed we should all be of these so called "teachers". Once again, those with no brains at all are being looked at to make an intelligent stance, yet fail to do so.

I went to highschool 15 years ago... and had this happened back then, the student would have never been allowed to publish a newsletter without teacher guidance, the other students would have been suspended for threats, and the teachers would have had some commen sense and personal responsibility to act like grown-ups through it all.

Guess this is America now.

[Keino]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic


I went to highschool 15 years ago... and had this happened back then, the student would have never been allowed to publish a newsletter without teacher guidance, the other students would have been suspended for threats, and the teachers would have had some commen sense and personal responsibility to act like grown-ups through it all.




This is a good point. Every Extra-Curricular "Club" at my HS had to have the guidance of a Teacher or Faculty (Counslerors) and students making threats would be punished and that would be that. I hope my comments didn't lead you to believe that I condone the actions of the students making physical threats. The article just left me with too many unanswered questions....

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by Keino
I hope my comments didn't lead you to believe that I condone the actions of the students making physical threats. The article just left me with too many unanswered questions....


Nah Sean - I know you... and we both have already found out we agree more than disagree on most things. I cant imagine there are many people who could honestly say they agree with taking this one student around back and thumping his skull simply because he made a stupid statement. If there are... they are most probably in prison by now.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
If there are... they are most probably in prison by now.


OR... they are still in High School and have yet to see what the real world (Not the MTV version) is like.

[Odyn]

No Bully's allowed. Remember Columbine!

[BigCountry]

Originally posted by jporterweb
But you said you would've been right there with them. SO damn it you are saying that it was right. You said it... It's the teachers and admins jobs to stand up when the kid asks for help and help. Just cause they don't agree with his opinion doesn't mean they don't have that responsibility.

Yes but I retracted. Face it, there was no they could have given the kid 100% protection so therefor the admins made the right decision. Punishing him would have been making him come back the next day...

[jporterweb]

They weren't willing to give him 1% protection.so that arguement is worth nothing.

[lakewinola]

Boy, what Bush is about to do must really upset this punk from california.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/bush.immigration/index.html

[NamVet4]

The White House will contend that registering illegal workers is important for the economy and national security, according to the sources. But many conservative Republicans vehemently oppose any provision that would reward those who entered the United States illegally.

Once again, Al-Qaeda plays a hand in shaping our national policy........................................ (I think we are 4th and 9 on the terrorist playing field)

[Spence]

Obviously the boy should not be physically harassed and the school should protect him from harm. That much is obvious.

When you step into the political arena, however, you must be prepared for verbal combat, at the very least. The boy could have made arguments against our current immigration policy without using obvious ethnic stereotypes--people do make such arguments. He didn't make that argument, he went for the cheap shot. It is hardly surprising then that he has gotten a few cheap shots in return.

There is something funny about the article, however. The boy blames our current immigration policy on "liberals." He seems completely unaware that the Republican party has long sought to increase immigration from the Third World to the United States. Why? Because cheap labor is what the contruction industry in this country wants, it is what the agriculture industry wants, and it is what the restaurant industry wants. There are millions of jobs in this country that Americans could do, but either do not want to do or do not want to do at the salary/wage being offered. Large parts of our gigantic service industry economy are powered by cheap labor and that cheap labor comes into the country because business [and their allies/servants in the Republican party] wish it to be so.

For a conservative who hates liberals and hates immigration, I believe this is what is known as an inconvenient fact.

[RedskinsDave]

Yeah that's it because service industries never pass on costs to the consumers. If wages were higher in all those fields, we'd all pay for it.

[Spence]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Yeah that's it because service industries never pass on costs to the consumers. If wages were higher in all those fields, we'd all pay for it. Ah, so who is to blame [if blame exists] for our current immigration policy? Liberals [who are traditionally friendly to labor unions and therefore opposed to importation of cheap labor] or the political servants of the business lobby? I'm pretty sure I know the answer. I don't really hold that kid responsible for getting the answer wrong. He's just a kid, of course, and his political philosophy at the moment is probably composed mostly of the sort of cheap slogans he used in his article.

[RedskinsDave]

So tell me Tom, who is it that advocates giving health care and welfare to illegals? That's right, liberals. Who is it that thinks it's unfair to require citizenship to acquire a driver's license? Again, liberals. Who advocates providing low income housing for illegals? Yup, liberals. Say what you will about labor unions and low income workers but nothing makes this country more appealing to an illegal alien than the knowledge you guys will cater to their every need.

[Spence]

That's absurd, Dave. Immigrants don't come to this country looking for welfare, they come looking for jobs. That is what makes the country appealing. These people send huge chunks of their take-home pay back home to support the rest of their family. Welfare isn't going to cut if for them, even if they were eligible for it. Talk to an illegal immigrant [or someone who used to have that status] some time and find out. A few years back I did some pro bono legal work for some illegal immigrants and found out a few things about how their lives work. Welfare isn't part of the equation.

Liberals believe that once illegal immigrants are here they should either be expelled or treated like human beings. Since the business sector would never permit this country to actually rigorously enforce its immigration laws, expelling illegals isn't going to happen. You conservatives favor treating them like serfs, warning them to accept sub-minimum wage jobs with no safety standards and worker protection or be sent home. We liberals do not.

But just out of curiousity, Dave, who are these liberals who can't wait to spend money on illegal immigrants? I'm a liberal and I have lots of liberal friends and I can't think of any who believe it is a good idea to spend pots of money on illegal immigrants. I can't think of a single leading Democrat who supports such a thing. I hope you're not just repeating something you heard Rush Limbaugh say on his radio show, in between his frantic rediscovery of the right to privacy.

As for giving driver's licenses to illegals, I can certainly see how that makes sense in places like southern California, which has no mass transit system to speak of. How else are many illegal immigrants supposed to get to their jobs? You don't take the subway in Los Angeles, Dave. They are going to drive anyway. Hundreds of thousands of them do and there is no way to stop it in any meaningful way. Therefore, the question is: Do we give qualifying applicants [those who know how to drive and obey the rules of the road] driver's licenses or do we have them continue to drive illegally and without the benefit of any formal instruction?

[SkinsKY]

Originally posted by Spence
That's absurd, Dave. Immigrants don't come to this country looking for welfare, they come looking for jobs. That is what makes the country appealing. These people send huge chunks of their take-home pay back home to support the rest of their family. Welfare isn't going to cut if for them, even if they were eligible for it. Talk to an illegal immigrant [or someone who used to have that status] some time and find out. A few years back I did some pro bono legal work for some illegal immigrants and found out a few things about how their lives work. Welfare isn't part of the equation.

Liberals believe that once illegal immigrants are here they should either be expelled or treated like human beings. Since the business sector would never permit this country to actually rigorously enforce its immigration laws, expelling illegals isn't going to happen. You conservatives favor treating them like serfs, warning them to accept sub-minimum wage jobs with no safety standards and worker protection or be sent home. We liberals do not.

But just out of curiousity, Dave, who are these liberals who can't wait to spend money on illegal immigrants? I'm a liberal and I have lots of liberal friends and I can't think of any who believe it is a good idea to spend pots of money on illegal immigrants. I can't think of a single leading Democrat who supports such a thing. I hope you're not just repeating something you heard Rush Limbaugh say on his radio show, in between his frantic rediscovery of the right to privacy.

As for giving driver's licenses to illegals, I can certainly see how that makes sense in places like southern California, which has no mass transit system to speak of. How else are many illegal immigrants supposed to get to their jobs? You don't take the subway in Los Angeles, Dave. They are going to drive anyway. Hundreds of thousands of them do and there is no way to stop it in any meaningful way. Therefore, the question is: Do we give qualifying applicants [those who know how to drive and obey the rules of the road] driver's licenses or do we have them continue to drive illegally and without the benefit of any formal instruction?

The government has an obligation to its citizens. We owe nothing to those who reside here illegally. If they go through the due process of immigration and earn a green card or visa, I would certainly support legislation to help those while they are here. BTW, I'm not arguing Dave's point where he left off. I'm just chiming in. It sets a bad precedent to offer aid or rights to anyone who happens to be within our borders, save for basic human and civil rights. As far as licenses, health care (other than emergency care) and education goes, I do not think they are entitled to any of that. By allowing the circumvention of our laws we compromise our position.

Now, I understand the argument that they will drive anyway and I also understand that it would be and has been very difficult to enforce immigration laws efficiently. This is where the hole in my argument lies, but I don't think that allowing them priveliges such as those mentioned earlier is an appropriate repsonse.

[Keino]

SkinsKY, there are many "Illegals" who contribute to our society. In fact, states like California have economies wholly dependent on the work of "illegals". Aren't their Kids entitled to an education and health care if they are contributing to our society? Afterall, the kids didn't have a choice now did they?

I for one do not belive in a civilized society that Healthcare and Education are Privelges, but rather they are Rights. The reality is that we Want illegals here as long as they take menial jobs and don't ask for the rights afforded to citizens. Compassionate Conservatism my eye.......

[NamVet4]

Somebody tell me why we still have "illegal aliens"...?
Is the law in need of revision; is this a matter of semantics’?

[RedskinsDave]

Give them healthcare. Give them education. Give them driver's licenses even though they don't get insurance (ever been in an accident and been left in the lurch? Didn't think so). THEY DON'T PAY TAXES.

Come over to the People's Republic of Arlington if you want to see the liberals who spend money on them.

To Keino, they are the reason California has such horrible finances. They are a burden. We send their kids to school yet Mami y Papi no pague su acción.


source (http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/cap/2003/cap_03-09-25.html)

[Keino]

Hard to pay taxes when you make $2.00 an hour that gets paid under the table...Remember that Employers pay Dollar for Dollar the taxes we pay through US payroll taxes. This means that Company's benefitting from illegal labor are also not paying the taxes they should be paying..........

Dave the California would be even worse off were it not for the Cheap/illegal labor force.....

[SkinsKY]

Originally posted by Keino
SkinsKY, there are many "Illegals" who contribute to our society. In fact, states like California have economies wholly dependent on the work of "illegals". Aren't their Kids entitled to an education and health care if they are contributing to our society? Afterall, the kids didn't have a choice now did they?

I for one do not belive in a civilized society that Healthcare and Education are Privelges, but rather they are Rights. The reality is that we Want illegals here as long as they take menial jobs and don't ask for the rights afforded to citizens. Compassionate Conservatism my eye.......

I don't think Health/Education are rights. The right to pursue them certainly exists, but I don't think anyone should be guaranteed an education. I know that many of them contribute to the society. Many make the farms around central Kentucky operate. My point is, give the ones who legally come in, the education and so forth to encourage others. My point is not that they are here, but that they are here illegally. How can we have the gall to enforce our own laws if we let millions (I don't know the actual number) be exempt from it. That compromises our position. By offering benefits, you only encourage it.

[Spence]

No, Dave, the reason California has a financial problem is that it has the most preposterous property tax laws in the world, as has been pointed out by Governator advisor/super-investor Warren Buffet.

These right-wing attacks on illegal aliens are horrible in one sense, wonderful in another. Horrible in the sense that illegal aliens are encouraged to come here by U.S. business and then the servants of U.S. business--the GOP--turn on these aliens and use them for political purposes. Horrible also in the sense that people claim the aliens are soaking up resources without providing any real numbers to substantiate those allegations.

The attacks are wonderful in another sense, however. Hispanic Americans are the largest ethnic minority in the country and also the fastest-growing. They lean Democratic now, but the Republicans consider winning Hispanic votes absolutely necessary to the long-term electability of the national GOP. I would like to encourage elected Republican officials to follow the line laid out here by Dave and others. Attack illegal immigrants. Let 'em have it! Make broad generalizations about them!

Just more votes for the good guys and fewer votes for the bad guys. Get to work.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by RedskinsDave
Give them healthcare. Give them education. Give them driver's licenses even though they don't get insurance (ever been in an accident and been left in the lurch? Didn't think so). THEY DON'T PAY TAXES.

Come over to the People's Republic of Arlington if you want to see the liberals who spend money on them.

To Keino, they are the reason California has such horrible finances. They are a burden. We send their kids to school yet Mami y Papi no pague su acción.


source (http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/cap/2003/cap_03-09-25.html)

C'mon, don't lay this soley at the feet of liberals. Right now Bush is proposing granting temporay legal status to 8 million undocumented immegrant workers. The vast majotiy of these workers are in Texas, FLorida, Californai, and NY. Think Bush feels this will hurt his chances to win those electoral votes come November?

Bottom line, this helps the economy more than it hurts b/c of the cheap labor provided. Why else would our conservative president do it?

[RedskinsDave]

I have no problem with legal immigrants. Actually not some but MOST of my friends are children of legal immigrants and they're Republicans. Actually one of them has registered here but has yet to post. I'll encourage him to do so.