bush has no chance

[suppitty]

well good ole dubya has no chance anymore. kerry beat him 55-43 in a poll. edwrads beat him 55-45. he has a ton of money but has no chance to pick up a state anywhere. his campaighn targets:
nascar dads. seriously like those people didnt allready vote for him. waving their flags around.

[Ford]

I hope very much Bush loses in November .. but didnt Michael Dukakis have like a 17 point lead over Sr at this point? These polls can be helpful indicators, but once the one on one matchup spotlight is there .. it's a different race.

[Marlboro Red]

It is way too early for talk of Bush having no chance. Not that long ago Bush looked unstoppable. You have to realize that Democrats are getting all the press right now because of the primaries. Elections are exciting, and the casual voter isn't even looking at Bush yet. When it comes time for the frontrunners in both parties to face each other, you will get a better indication of what will happen.

BTW if anything I'm saying doesn't make sense let me know, its just my theory.

[flave1969]

Originally posted by Marlboro Red
When it comes time for the frontrunners in both parties to face each other, you will get a better indication of what will happen.



As I am British I look in from the outside and agree with what is said. I find it hard to discount Bush because he is going to play dirty tricks with his war chest like never before, he has already started. I want to see him go face to face with Kerry, because unlike Al Gore I think Kerry will potentially tie him in knots and make him look stupid.

I like it that Kerry is uncompromising when you attack his character and I think Bush will resort to this.

I think back to Bush on his face the press interview a few weeks back, he was so incoherent by the end it was embarrasing. Can Kerry capitilise?

[flave1969]

Apparently Edwards is better in a debate than Kerry, so I do not know how things wiil work out. I just hope they concentrate their fire on Bush and not eachother.

[RedskinsDave]

Originally posted by flave1969
As I am British

The end.

[RedskinsDave]

Hey Uppity, that's the second time you mentioned "waving flags aorund" as if it's a bad thing. You have a problem with patriotism?

[suppitty]

no, i actually just cant stand the nascar crowd.

[Yudolindo]

Kerry is desperate for the NASCAR crowed, so they are doing something right. Moreover, polls right now mean jack squat: democrats have been getting months of free airtime to take shots at Bush, who has no forum with which to reciprocate. This is how it goes every election. Once Bush saturates the media with his message, and Kerry gets dragged through the mud (which he has not been thus far, it was Dean who was everyone’s whipping boy), the numbers will shift. Another problem is while everyone “loves,” Kerry and Edwards, not enough so to give them money: they are going to have a VERY hard time keeping up with Bush.

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by flave1969


I think back to Bush on his face the press interview a few weeks back, he was so incoherent by the end it was embarrasing. Can Kerry capitilise?

Actually, you may not know because of your "outsider" perspective, Bush rates very, very high in face-to-face interviews when Americans are polled. So I would say no.

[Ford]

Originally posted by Yudolindo
Kerry is desperate for the NASCAR crowed, so they are doing something right. Moreover, polls right now mean jack squat: democrats have been getting months of free airtime to take shots at Bush, who has no forum with which to reciprocate. This is how it goes every election. Once Bush saturates the media with his message, and Kerry gets dragged through the mud (which he has not been thus far, it was Dean who was everyone’s whipping boy), the numbers will shift. Another problem is while everyone “loves,” Kerry and Edwards, not enough so to give them money: they are going to have a VERY hard time keeping up with Bush.

I can't wait till George Bush saturates us with his accomplishments of losing millions of jobs, breaking the $7 trillion mark with the deficit, and alienating our allies while making the rest of the world hate us. Go GW .. go? :confused:

[Patrick]

Joe Gibbs is part of the NASCAR crowd.

[Fan4Life]

Kerry can carry the big electorial states like California and New York. Edwards can bring the "stupid" South together, a region made up primarily of the John Boy and Billy Show, beer, and welfare!

[NamVet4]

Originally posted by Yudolindo
Kerry is desperate for the NASCAR crowed, so they are doing something right. Moreover, polls right now mean jack squat: democrats have been getting months of free airtime to take shots at Bush, who has no forum with which to reciprocate. This is how it goes every election. Once Bush saturates the media with his message, and Kerry gets dragged through the mud (which he has not been thus far, it was Dean who was everyone’s whipping boy), the numbers will shift. Another problem is while everyone “loves,” Kerry and Edwards, not enough so to give them money: they are going to have a VERY hard time keeping up with Bush.


Question:

George Bush has a forum for goodness sake ! He is the President.
I suspect that the reason we have not heard from him or his administration and political allies is that they are feverishly working to extract American forces from Iraq in time to create political "hay" just prior to the election.

How do you think the American voting public will interpret that move?

[RedskinsDave]

I can't wait until the admin makes Ford remove his sig pic.

[higgybaby]

I agree I think either Ford or one of the admins should remove his sig

[Ford]

cry me a river .. if it was clinton you'd be cheering along.

[suppitty]

haha. yeah bush doesnt have a forum. he did absolutely nothing with his state of the union which is usually when a presidents numbers surge.

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by suppitty
haha. yeah bush doesnt have a forum. he did absolutely nothing with his state of the union which is usually when a presidents numbers surge.

Actually, they went up, and then declined. Anyway, the State of the Union is not a place to take cheap shots at Kerry, while Kerry has said opportunity every night.

[RedskinsDave]

Originally posted by Ford
cry me a river .. if it was clinton you'd be cheering along.

No, it's just juvenile but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by Ford
cry me a river .. if it was clinton you'd be cheering along.

Dan, I was actually going to send you a PM and ask you nicely...

I am a Bush supporter, but more then that, I respect the Office of the Presidency (even when Clinton was in there).

Maybe my age is showing, but out of respect for the Office, may I ask you to either remove it, or make it smaller?

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by Fan4Life
Edwards can bring the "stupid" South together, a region made up primarily of the John Boy and Billy Show, beer, and welfare!

Are you insane or just stupid? This was about the most racist comment I've ever heard in this forum...:twak: :cussing:

[Keino]

Ford, I agree with the sentiments, But I have to agree that the Buck Fush tagline is inappropriate. Others get warned for using the F word but disguising it. It would be in the best interest of everyone if you removed it......


BTW - I agree that there are hypocrites that would cheer along if it wasn't their guy.

[Keino]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
Are you insane or just stupid? This was about the most racist comment I've ever heard in this forum...:twak: :cussing:

Ignorant, and Broad generalizations yes. Racist? I don't think so.

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by Keino
Ignorant, and Broad generalizations yes. Racist? I don't think so.

Wrong! It's sounds to me that they think all white, southern men are drunken trailer trash. Sorry, but since all my male relatives live in the south, I'm offended for them.

[Keino]

Sounded to me all Southerners were being pegged as stupid not just the white ones. Besides, when have southern white men ever been the victims of racism?

[Chief Seeway]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
Are you insane or just stupid? This was about the most racist comment I've ever heard in this forum...:twak: :cussing:

I agree AGG. My belief is ignorant parents raise ignorant children. It's a tough cycle to break.

[BigCountry]

So where's the "racist" patroll when RedskinsDave reacted to Flave saying he's British by saying "the end". That's not a generalazation? How come nobody got mad about that?

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by BigCountry
So where's the "racist" patroll when RedskinsDave reacted to Flave saying he's British by saying "the end". That's not a generalazation? How come nobody got mad about that?

I think to infer that British people’s opinion of American politics are skewed and less relevant is not “racist,” but is in fact accurate: why do you think the British don’t get to vote or get polled in American elections? Americans hold the monopoly of immediately relevant opinion of American politics. Like wise, I think it would be inappropriate for an American to go trolling about on some British board with semi informed semi--if at all--accurate statements about Tony Blair or the Labor Party. There is no “racism,” as the British are a nationality and not a race, and it is very fair to view British opinion about American politics with incredulity if not outright dismissiveness. However, to insult southern people as “stupid,” while not racist, is a form of bigotry and stupidity in it of its self: in my long life I have discovered that morons favor no side of the Mason-Dixon line. To suggest otherwise to prop up a masturbatory self-righteousness that certain elites cling.

[BigCountry]

Still a generalization

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by BigCountry
Still a generalization

In this case however, it is not an entirely unfair one.

[BigCountry]

Doesn;t make it any better or worse then the other one.

[higgybaby]

Ford says:

cry me a river .. if it was clinton you'd be cheering along.

When have you ever read any posts by me that could even be remotely construed vulgar; disquised or otherwise!
No, I would be vehemently opposed to the same kind of ugly trash, if it were aimed at a democrat, Ford.
1) There are children that read these posts.
2) There are decent adults that read these posts as well!

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by BigCountry
Doesn;t make it any better or worse then the other one.

To call an entire inhabitance of a region utterly benighted is far, far worse than saying that a man of one country lacks a complete grasp of an entirely different nation's politics. One is unfair and bigoted, the other is, though somewhat narrow minded, fair and reasonable: it is unfair to say that because you are from the American south, you are stupid, ignorant etc.; while it is fair to say that if you are not American, it is unlikely that you grasp the nuances, sentiments and meanings behind American politics. So, yes there is a difference, and a big one at that.

[suppitty]

well yudolindo u are just backing up most peoples generalization of southerners. ignorant people who think they are superior to all other people. on the bush topic. i dont see how anyone can support him. ABSOLUTELY ZERO HAS GONE RIGHT SINCE HE BECAME PRESIDENT! sure they captured all the terrorists. too bad by the time we get out of iraq (2050) thousands of soldiers will have been killed, and the us will be hated even more. and why? because when people look at the US they see ignorant, unintelligent people like george bush leading a country.

[BigCountry]

Yudo you got all that from "End of story"?

Point being it was a generalization, if he would have meant it the way you said it he probably would have mentioned that. I'm not defending either... Just because one is against Americans and one isn't, doesn't mean they're differant.

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by suppitty
well yudolindo u are just backing up most peoples generalization of southerners. ignorant people who think they are superior to all other people.

What? Are you kidding me? Did you even read what I wrote?

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by BigCountry
Yudo you got all that from "End of story"?

Point being it was a generalization, if he would have meant it the way you said it he probably would have mentioned that. I'm not defending either... Just because one is against Americans and one isn't, doesn't mean they're differant.

What is going on in this thread? End of what? Come on now: they are different; did you even read my post?

[Yudolindo]

Moreover generalizations are not inherently bad, only so when they are racist or reinforce some bigoted attitude or another. Nothing is true all of the time; therefore to function in the world, we need to generalize. A few “good,” but flawed generalizations:

Cats are furry. Well, most are, however a small percentage is hairless. Should we not think of cats as furry? Lets stop getting cats because they are hairless and thus are not fun to pet…

A criminal is such because he or she has broken the law. Overwhelmingly true, however a small percentage are falsely incriminated. Should we release and then have to dinner every murderer that claims his or her innocence?

Five year olds are not mature enough to vote. Perhaps one in a hundred thousand is…should Barney go on the stump with John Kerry? We would not want to wrong 20 or 30 American five year olds who are gifted enough to understand the implications of voting, and thus all toddlers should be enfranchised. Hey, don’t blame me when a Power Ranger is elected president.

In other words, most generalizations tend to do small injustice to a few, but yet make modern existence rational and coherent for the many. It is not a question of good V. bad, but rather of function V. failure.

[flave1969]

Originally posted by Yudolindo
I think to infer that British people’s opinion of American politics are skewed and less relevant is not “racist,” but is in fact accurate: why do you think the British don’t get to vote or get polled in American elections? Americans hold the monopoly of immediately relevant opinion of American politics. Like wise, I think it would be inappropriate for an American to go trolling about on some British board with semi informed semi--if at all--accurate statements about Tony Blair or the Labor Party. There is no “racism,” as the British are a nationality and not a race, and it is very fair to view British opinion about American politics with incredulity if not outright dismissiveness. However, to insult southern people as “stupid,” while not racist, is a form of bigotry and stupidity in it of its self: in my long life I have discovered that morons favor no side of the Mason-Dixon line. To suggest otherwise to prop up a masturbatory self-righteousness that certain elites cling.

I agree that Dave's " The End" comment is not rascist, and I do dislike the "Stupid South" quote.

However Yudolindo says somethings I would like to address.

For a start I was agreeing that Bush is far from finished, in my original comment,

Secondly as testified by the happenings already, and the general back and forth on this thread, the coming campaign is going too be full of dirty tricks on both sides which I also tried to point out. Very little will be decided on the record of the past four years of the incumbent president.

I do agree that my opinions of Kerry and his skills as a would be nominee are limited, I am still entitled to call it as I see it, I will accept it when I am proven wrong. I am also here to learn about your opinions.

Thirdly, for many many years consecutive U.S governments have projected power around the world. You cannot sit there and say it has nothing to do with me or the rest of the world. You are maybe the one nation in the entire world whose policies have a direct effect influence on the way other nations live their lives.

As an example by pulling out of the Kyoto treaty, the nation who accounts for 42% of the worlds CO2 emmisions effectively gave the second biggest Russia with 19% the excuse to pull out too. That leaves Kyoto, a treaty both the US and Russia signed up too dead in the water. Ask Afghans or Iraqis whether you have any influence on their lives. Whether good or bad your nation does have an influence.

If you are incredulous or outright dismissive of other nationalities perceptions about your politics then that is ignorant. If you think you cannot hear an interesting opinion because I am British then perhaps I should say nothing more because I am just trying to get an understanding. Unfortunately I am unlikely to learn anything from you, as I am not worth informing or talking to.

Because American Football is distinguished as "American" should I not be here? Does it's very American uniqueness stop me loving it, commenting on it, playing it for ten years in the British League. No I do not think so. If I am ill-informed, put me right do not put me down. I welcome your comment on anything British, but I guess the little Island over the pond is not worth talking about. Many of the questions George Bush is facing now, are the exact same ones Tony Blair has faced and staked his reputation on in the past few months, so perhaps it is not so irrelevant. It might just make an interesting contrast.

Finally, with all due respect you know nothing of my situation. In six months time I will be moving to Goldsboro, North Carolina with my American wife. I do in fact have a very big interest in US politics as they will directly affect my wife and daughter who is an American national, and in time myself as the main bread winner for my family.

Do not jump to conclusions about people. If you think they are wrong, address what you feel is wrong with what they say. Dismissing people outright on one subject usually leads to a dismissal on other subjects. Politics is about debating, putting across opinion about the best way we can reach what we all want, a good life.

I would like to thank you and Dave for making me feel welcome here. Funny we do have some commonality I have been a Washington fan for 22 years. Does not seem too be enough too be welcome here.

[RedskinsDave]

Oh come on, all I wrote was "the end" because he said he was British and then ranted on about my president. It was neither racist or narrow minded, it was dismissive.

[BigCountry]

So only Americans are allowed to talk about the American president? Don't give me oh come on because if we were talking about Blair and he would have made the same comment about you being American you'd be po'd.

[RedskinsDave]

If I go and slam his leader I'm quite sure I would receive some comment about being a wanker from the other side of the pond. You already tried to claim what I wrote was racist, I guess you've moved to another argument now. I don't like people who aren't American trying to slam my president.

[flave1969]

I would not call you a wanker Dave, I do not know you well enough to do this. If your attempt to stick up for George Bush is to just dismiss people then you do him and yourself a disservice.

I happen to think that George Bush is a smart man, but my opinion is qualified. I think that his policies in regard to many things are wrong, and he does not articulate himself well at all when questioned on these. Politics is about getting your point across, putting foundation under your beliefs. He does not do this well and whether you like it or not, it has a direct result on many millions of people outside your borders.

If they are not allowed an opinion whether on this forum or anywhere else then why not just withdraw from the world.

Sounds crazy does it not. But essentially this is what you are advocating I should do because I am not American an my opinions mean little.

[BigCountry]

Flave you're allowed to say whatever the hell you want regardless if which country you're from. Any notion against that is wrong. I wasn't born here and have only been here 3 years, nobody is gonna tell me that my opinion is invalid because of that.

[flave1969]

Thank you Big Country.

I want to learn and I want to understand the debate, being dismissed does not really help.

As I said earlier I am going too be living in N.C in six months, and anything Bush, Kerry and Edwards, even Nader do will affect my life that of my wife and my six month old daughter.

So British or not I want to hear Yudolindo's and RedskinDaves opinion even if I do not agree.

[RedskinsDave]

I discounted you because you are not from here and wrote this, "I find it hard to discount Bush because he is going to play dirty tricks with his war chest like never before, he has already started"

Instead of asking you to give me details that do not exist, I accepted the fact that you aren't in the know.

[Yudolindo]

Do I ignore or discount what other people in the world think about my country? Not at all, and that is not what I said. What I did say was it is fair to do so and is not bigoted. Moreover, it is not entirely relevant what non-Americans think about our politics, as they may often lack a full understanding of them. For example, most North Koreans believe that Americans are "cannibals" and would like no better than to enslave their country. So, is this true? Can we assume that foreign opinion is tainted? Well, you for one proved my point: you blamed the Russia’s withdrawal from the Kyoto summit on America and thus concluded that America was solely furthering world pollution and the eventual demise of our planet. What you failed to mention is that America withdrew because the treaty was unfair: the worlds fastest growing and soon to be largest green house gas polluter, China, did not even show to the summit. So how is it fair that America clean up its act when it has to compete with China, who pollutes more and simply disregards the regulations? Of course, we all know that America is bad and thus don’t care for the facts…

[flave1969]

OK I accept that Dave. Tell me where I am wrong and I will accept it. I am taking my sources from places like CNN and USA Today. I do not take it personally. I want to know the facts as you all see them. I picked up about the dirty tricks from the toing and fro-ing on here and also from Newsweek about two weeks ago. I think the jibes about Bush's war record are equally dirty and irrelevant to a point.

[flave1969]

Sorry Yudo, I will answer tomorrow, it is late here, but I want to answer.

[BigCountry]

Yudo all I said to you is that you were taking it a little too lightly. The rest isn't directed at you.

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by flave1969
Sorry Yudo, I will answer tomorrow, it is late here, but I want to answer.

Of course, whenever you get time.


Originally posted by BigCountry
Yudo all I said to you is that you were taking it a little too lightly. The rest isn't directed at you.

And my last response was not directed at you. :)

[flave1969]

Good Morning,
Yudo my point about Kyoto was about the projection of power, not about simply pollution. 13 of the 15 EU Nations will miss their own targets for CO2 emissions, it would be hypocritical of me to attack the US on pollution when the whole industrialised world needs to clean up its act.

The point I was making, Vladimir Putin used the lead of the US to step away from the Protocol. It had made no mention until September 2003 of the economic arguments it was now putting forward. the arguments for pulling away were almost word for word the same as the US had said in 2001. Had the UK pulled out frankly no one would give a toss. But with the US having made it's stand it had precedent and a justification of its reasons.

By Russia withdrawing the 55% target on CO2 emissions needed for ratification of the Protocol could no longer be met. Had Russia done this uni-laterally with the US still involved in Kyoto a lot of pressure could have been bought to bare on them to stay involved, they actually probably would not have taken that step.

Right now the US and Russia and yes China are outside any global agreement on CO2 emissions and that surely is not a good situation.

I think the economic points you raise are good ones, especially from a US point of view, but on a global scale we stand a much better chance of doing something with the US at the heart of things than outside them. As of the last two meetings their has been no US involvement and that cannot be good.

How this got from whether my views are valid within this forum too Kyoto is beyond me, it was a ready example on the influence the US has globally. Suffice to say, at least you and I have had dialogue as a result. No matter who is right or wrong thats a good thing.

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by Keino
Sounded to me all Southerners were being pegged as stupid not just the white ones. Besides, when have southern white men ever been the victims of racism?

Let's just flip this around: What if he had said, "Edwards can bring the "stupid" South together, a region made up primarily of the LaTeshia's and Keshawn's, crack, and welfare!"

Sound racist to you now?

[Keino]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
Let's just flip this around: What if he had said, "Edwards can bring the "stupid" South together, a region made up primarily of the LaTeshia's and Keshawn's, crack, and welfare!"

Sound racist to you now?

I understand your point, but I disagree, mainly because I feel our definitions of racism differ. I won't rehash the race discussion again for a number of reasons, so if you would like to know my reasons for disagreement with you feel free to PM me.

[RedskinsDave]

I'm guessing someone is believes that whites cannot be subjected to racism. :rolleyes:

[Keino]

Evidently someone would like to rehash a past discussion........

[AGibbsGirl]

No Keino, as long as you see that things can be viewed differently by different people.

I would never presume to think whites have it the way A.A. do in this country. Been around the block enough to know that that simply is not the case. But until we shut down all forms of racism, sterotypes and generalization we will never be free!

[Keino]

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
But until we shut down all forms of racism, sterotypes and generalization we will never be free!

I couldn't agree more.

[Spearfeather]

Originally posted by Ford
I can't wait till George Bush saturates us with his accomplishments of losing millions of jobs, breaking the $7 trillion mark with the deficit, and alienating our allies while making the rest of the world hate us. Go GW .. go? :confused:

Please compare the unemployment rate now with the unemployment rate of the 90's

Other nations will not dictate the course of this Country.

[dukeuch]

Originally posted by Spearfeather
Please compare the unemployment rate now with the unemployment rate of the 90's

Other nations will not dictate the course of this Country.

I'll do the honors:

1990: 5.6
1991: 6.8
1992: 7.5
1993: 6.9
1994: 6.1
1995: 5.6
1996: 5.4
1997: 4.9
1998: 4.5
1999: 4.2
2000: 4.0
2001: 4.7
2002: 5.8
2003: 6.0

Wow. Seems like Republican presidents have had a pretty rough record here.