This Is Bugging Me....

[JoeDaSchmoe]

I think it's about time for people to stop using last year's record as an excuse to bench Ramsey for Brunell. Yes, yes,Ramsey was starter for a 5-11 team. But guess what? Brunell was benched on a 5-11 team. He was sat down for a young, talented QB of the future. Ramsey's record doesn't mean jack-squat in my book, because in the only two years that both he and Brunell have been in the league at the same time, Brunell is 6-13 in his starts while Ramsey is 6-10. Brunell's done some great things in the past, yes, but if Ramsey had had that much talent around him last year, does anyone here think that the name Mark Brunell would have even escaped Joe Gibbs' mouth?

If there is an open competition, Brunell may very well end up winning due to his experience. Right now I think he may be a marginally better QB. Right now. But, please, stop touting Ramsey's record as a reason to sit him down. He's fared better in the past two years than Brunell has.

[truant]

Good points. If you watched the games, Patick could be credited with some of those wins and not many of those losses. Ramsey's getting the shaft and everyone is seemingly calling him out. I don't blame him too much for wanting out anymore. People love him, stuffing the ballots and talk about his bright future this year, and the same people tell him to stop whining because he essentially lost his job for no reason.

I'm on board with the plan, but i can't say that I like it. I'll hate it if Ramsey goes (I don't think that'll happen). Oh, and if the QB competition is somewhat fair, I think Ramsey will beat out Brunell.

[ShaggySkins]

Joe,
His record IS a reason for trying to bring in competition. That is why it keeps being brought up. If this team was 11-5 last year there would be no talk of Brunell. So to say that his record doesn't matter is wrong. It most certainly does and is a BIG reason for bringing in Brunell. And Brunell was INJURED not benched. There is a difference there, he missed 3 weeks due to injury for an Elbow laceration.
Ramsey's record is going to remain a reason for his benching. Ramsey has not proven he can win on a consistent basis in this league. Brunell has. Its that simple, when Ramsey puts together a winning record this talk will stop but he hasn't yet. And about the talent, Ramsey has had A LOT more talent in the last 2 years then Brunell has so I really don't think you want to make that argument.

[rskinsfan10]

I don't think that anyone is using last year's record as an excuse to bench Ramsey. What WE are saying is that because of last year's record, his overall record as a starter, and he being wet behind the ears as far as the NFL goes, he hasn't earned the right to act as though he should be handed the job, and to demand a trade. His "how dare Gibbs like someone else" attitude is what gets under the skin of myself, and I sure that I'm not alone. At this point, I'm confident that Ramsey simply knows that he isn't better then Brunell.

Still, none of the Ramsey supporters aren't turning on him after he is turning on the Skins. That is mind-boggling to say the least.

[ShaggySkins]

My biggest issue with the whole thing is that Ramsey's agent who I believe is speaking for Ramsey has pretty much talked like Ramsey is entitled to the position with no competition. This is the NFL you are NEVER entitled to a job regardless of how you performed. Only a few people in the league have any right to talk about how they are entitled to being handed the job and Ramsey is not one of those players. He hasn't proven that he deserves to be handed the job with no questions asked.

[SusQhnnaSkin]

Ramsey was as good as anybody could have been last year under the circumstances. I mostly blame SS for last years record, I don't think Ramsey is to blame. Brunell was injured, then benched. There is no QB in history that can have a winning record with a bad coaching staff. Archie Manning was a great QB- what was his record?

[ShaggySkins]

Your comparing Patrick Ramsey to Archie Manning???
Give me a break

[Smiley]

This is what we wanted people!! Open competition at each position! No one is on the bench, yet. The best players starts it's very simple. I hope ramsey beats him out but if he doesn't, no big deal. I want us to start winning and don't care who takes us there, Brunnell or Ramsey. We don't need a great QB to win a Super Bowl, we just need someone to run the offense withot hurting us.

[SusQhnnaSkin]

TRUE! WE all want to see the skins back on top and I think it should be Ramsey doing it, but winning games cures all ills

[akhhorus]

Originally posted by JoeDaSchmoe
I think it's about time for people to stop using last year's record as an excuse to bench Ramsey for Brunell. Yes, yes,Ramsey was starter for a 5-11 team. But guess what? Brunell was benched on a 5-11 team. He was sat down for a young, talented QB of the future. Ramsey's record doesn't mean jack-squat in my book, because in the only two years that both he and Brunell have been in the league at the same time, Brunell is 6-13 in his starts while Ramsey is 6-10. Brunell's done some great things in the past, yes, but if Ramsey had had that much talent around him last year, does anyone here think that the name Mark Brunell would have even escaped Joe Gibbs' mouth?

If there is an open competition, Brunell may very well end up winning due to his experience. Right now I think he may be a marginally better QB. Right now. But, please, stop touting Ramsey's record as a reason to sit him down. He's fared better in the past two years than Brunell has.

Actually Ramsey has only won five starts:
Houston
Dallas
Atlanta
Jets
Patriots
He didnt start the Titians game he won.
and I dont think it was Brunell's fault he's been 6-13. He's had a crappy team around him, in 2002 he had no o-line and Fred Taylor injured. And he still had a QB rating of 83. The only he started this past season, he was leading against Carolina. His defense blew it and lost in the final seconds. I like Ramsey(he's my favorite player), however if I had the choice between the two, I would take Brunell and trade Ramsey and draft a young QB (like Philip Rivers or JP Losman) to replace Brunell.

[SusQhnnaSkin]

Why would you trade away Pat(Who has proven he can play at this level) for another Young QB who has a 50/50 chance of success?

[Skins4life]

Lets get real. NO QB would have survived that stupid audible/blocking scheme play calling. Put Ramsey in a good offense built to protect the QB and give him time to make a decision - he will be deadly. You guys need to chill. I for one hate the fact the Brunell is coming to DC - I think he is an OK QB - but Ramsey is tough, he has heart, and he has proven he is a strong leader even if he is horizontal all game. Whatever happen will happen. It IS Joe Gibbs. I put all of my season ticket money in his pocket to turn this thing around. Can he do it with Ramsey? Yes. Can he do it with Brunell?? Yes. But is Brunell the future???? NO. -If Ramsey leaves, I hope he goes to Miami and throws for over 4000 yards and goes to the pro bowl. He deserves it.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Akh, he also won the Seahawks game. That makes six.

Shaggy, I fail to see how Ramsey's record can be used in that argument at all when his competitor's record over the exact same timespan has been worse. If we were bringing in Jeff Garcia, it'd be different. But we're not. We're bringing in someone with three more losses and the same number of wins in the last two years.

[AGibbsGirl]

And Brunell was INJURED not benched. There is a difference there, he missed 3 weeks due to injury for an Elbow laceration.
Ramsey's record is going to remain a reason for his benching.

Interesting Shaggy that you bring up Brunell's injury, but no mention of the fact that Ramsey played with a foot injury most of the year, (Heck! since it was a birth defect he obviously played the whole year...) until it became so unbearable (his own words) that he couldn't even put weight on it.

When he admitted that he hadn't been able to plant his foot for a few games, that's when I knew we could have won a few more had he had this taken care of.

But we didn't have a backup QB at the time...he must have played through pain because of this reason, or they told him to suck it up...

Stupid on the coaches part.

[soch21]

rams held onto the ball to long at times and has a problem with touch passes!!!! i think he can learn alot from brunell for a year or two... imo the only reason he wants to be traded is because of money he'll make alot more if he plays!!!!!

[AGibbsGirl]

Originally posted by soch21
rams held onto the ball to long at times and has a problem with touch passes!!!!

I do agree with this point...

[ShaggySkins]

AGG, the reason I didn't bring up Ramsey's injury is because Joe referred to Brunell being benched and I was pointing out that he was wrong in that respect. I know Ramsey was injured most of last season, if you want to say Brunell was benched last season in favor of Leftwich then you have to say Ramsey was benched in favor of Hassellbeck. Both QBs were put on the sideline due to injuries that would not allow them to compete.

Joe, you can't compare records unless you are also going to compare talent. Over the last two years Ramsey has had Stephen Davis, Chris Samuels, L. Coles, Randy Thomas, and Jon Jansen on the offensive side of the ball. All those guys have performed at a pro bowl level for some length of time over the last 2 seasons as Ramsey started. Over those same 2 years Brunell has only had Jimmy Smith to rely on with one of the worse O-Lines in the league that was 10X worse then Spurriers last year. He also has had a often injured RB with no solid #2 recieving option. Brunell has had NO talent around him the last 2 years. Brunell has shown he can win when he has talent, Ramsey has not. By comparing the records without comparing the talent is like saying Anthoney Wright is a better QB then Brett Farve because Wright had a better record this season. It just doesn't work like that.

[CarMike]

JDS, you're using the argument that Ramseys record should not be used in determining if hes the starter. But then you turn right around and use Brunells record to slam him.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge Ramsey fan. [Look at my avatar and sig] I just don't think its fair to a use players past as a reason not to sign him. And then use the same argument to make the other player the starter without any competition.. Point is, both haven't been getting the job done lately.

[CarMike]

OMT, a lot of people here at the end of the season were saying that Ramsey was outplayed by Hassellbeck.....

[ShaggySkins]

Originally posted by CarMike
OMT, a lot of people here at the end of the season were saying that Ramsey was outplayed by Hassellbeck.....

I think a lot of that talk ended after the Dallas game

[AGibbsGirl]

Ramsey's record is going to remain a reason for his benching. Ramsey has not proven he can win on a consistent basis in this league.

OK Doll, maybe this is what I should have quoted. IMO this is unfair because of the injury/BD to Ramsey. I was saying that I think we could have won a few more games had he been healthy. When you can't plant your foot as a QB then you can't really play. Also, we did see mobility (not McNabbish of course...) from PR in the first few games who's to say that he wouldn't have kept this up if he had not been in pain?

PS: I did get what you were saying about the Brunell injury/benching...I was addressing this other thing ;)

[JoeDaSchmoe]

No, I'm not using Brunell's to slam him. Look over my posts carefully, I alwyas use his record to simply bring him down to Ramsey's level. You want to take a shot at Ramsey's 6-10 record? Fine. But, please, while you do, make sure you've got another clip ready, so you can fire a few rounds at our new, 6-13 over the past two years starter. I'm not saying Brunell is bad because of it. I'm saying those who use Ramsey's record as a crutch for Brunell need to stop.

Joe, you can't compare records unless you are also going to compare talent. Over the last two years Ramsey has had Stephen Davis, Chris Samuels, L. Coles, Randy Thomas, and Jon Jansen on the offensive side of the ball. All those guys have performed at a pro bowl level for some length of time over the last 2 seasons as Ramsey started. Over those same 2 years Brunell has only had Jimmy Smith to rely on with one of the worse O-Lines in the league that was 10X worse then Spurriers last year. He also has had a often injured RB with no solid #2 recieving option. Brunell has had NO talent around him the last 2 years. Brunell has shown he can win when he has talent, Ramsey has not. By comparing the records without comparing the talent is like saying Anthoney Wright is a better QB then Brett Farve because Wright had a better record this season. It just doesn't work like that.

Fred Taylor didn't miss a game Brunell started in the past two years. Brunell had an NFL-caliber tight end to throw to, and a pretty good one at that. Would you call the 2002 Redskins O-line good at all? Can you name any of the guards that played other than Tre Johnson? I sure can't. We might have had decent tackles (and given their play in the past two years, I stress the word decent), but the rest was godawful.

I mean, hell, both teams were 5-11 this year, I'd say the surrounding talent was relatively even. You can't say Brunell would have made much of a difference had he started all season for the Jags, since he was completely winless this year. I don't think the talent level has been very different at all.

[CarMike]

Originally posted by ShaggySkins
I think a lot of that talk ended after the Dallas game

I was thinking the same thing as I was typing that post....:D

[CarMike]

Gotcha JDS....;)

[SonnyandSam]

:smash:

It's not fair to just ignore Brunell's career because he played for 7-8 years before Ramsey. THAT is why he IS a better quarterback than Ramsey. Ramsey DOES have potential but he has not reached that potential.

Brunell is the 9th highest rated quarterback in NFL history and he still has 3-5 good years left. Argue about whether we paid him too much but there is simply no comparison in ability. Perhaps that will change when/if Ramsey plays 12-15 years but that is NOT now.

Also, how many teams keep the same quarterback for long periods of time. Not many....a handful. Let's not forget Jay Schroeder and Mark Rypien and Gus Ferrotte who all had great potential and looked to become the next great Redskin quarterback.....All turned out to be busts.

Ramsey had a couple great games early in the season. That is it. He still has to prove he is a good/great starting quarterback for the long haul. Brunell has done that....Ramsey has not. Let's not be treating Ramsey like he is John Elway......

[ShaggySkins]

AGG, I understand what your saying but its difficult for me atleast to assume that since Ramsey is healthy now that he is going to be a pro bowler. I don't feel comfortable putting our playoff hopes on the shoulders of a guy who we THINK will be improved and healthy since he had surgery. Ramsey is still unproven in the league. Like I said before he has shown glimpses of being very good but he has also shown glimpses of being awful. He's still very young and inconsistent.

Originally posted by JoeDaSchmoe
Fred Taylor didn't miss a game Brunell started in the past two years. Brunell had an NFL-caliber tight end to throw to, and a pretty good one at that. Would you call the 2002 Redskins O-line good at all? Can you name any of the guards that played other than Tre Johnson? I sure can't. We might have had decent tackles (and given their play in the past two years, I stress the word decent), but the rest was godawful.

I mean, hell, both teams were 5-11 this year, I'd say the surrounding talent was relatively even. You can't say Brunell would have made much of a difference had he started all season for the Jags, since he was completely winless this year. I don't think the talent level has been very different at all.

Name anyone on the Jags offensive line??? You probably can't, I know I can't and I know Brunell has gotten killed behind that line the last two years. Even when the guards were horrible he still had bookend tackles on that team which is better then Brunell had. Kyle Brady is also far from being a very good TE anymore. Last year he only had 29 receptions which is not very good. He's been on the decline the last 3 years. Also over the last 2 seasons Brunell has never had a #2 reciever as good as Gardner or a #3 as good as McCants. Brunell has had Matthew Hatchette and Patrick Johnson (yes that same one who is 5th on our depth chart). I'm not saying Brunell would have made a difference for the Jags had he started the entire season because that team was very young. And I really don't think the talent level is even since they were both 5-11. I think everyone on this board will agree including you when I say the Redskins UNDERperformed last year. They lost a lot of games they shouldn't have lost. Where as the Jags won some games they shouldn't have won.

[CarMike]

IMO, Spurrier and Ramsey were the culprets of our OL being awful last year....

[akhhorus]

Originally posted by JoeDaSchmoe
Akh, he also won the Seahawks game. That makes six.

Shaggy, I fail to see how Ramsey's record can be used in that argument at all when his competitor's record over the exact same timespan has been worse. If we were bringing in Jeff Garcia, it'd be different. But we're not. We're bringing in someone with three more losses and the same number of wins in the last two years.

youre right about the win, BUT Shaggy's right. It's not like Gibbs is breaking up the 91 skins or the 72 dolphins. Ramsey has talent(and potential, but thats it-he hasnt proven that he can be a top flight QB in the NFL. His best game, Atlanta, came against a secondary that was devestated by injuries and Free agency. But he has never been able to do well against good CBs)...BUT the team only went 5-11 last year. Changes should be made. No-one's job should be safe

[VirginiaRedskin]

I worry that Ramsey has Drew Bledsoe syndrome. He has a cannon for an arm, but holds onto the ball too long and cannot read defenses fast enough. I know he is only in the league three years, but I watched enough live games to wonder about this. Nobody can evaluate a player from watching tape as well as Joe Gibbs and don't you think he saw this and has been concerned?

I remember in New England two years ago when Bledsoe was down Brady came in and did a better job not because of his arm strength, but because he made quick accurate throws and reads while not giving up sacks and not being in constant danger of getting injured. Bledsoe goes off to Buffalo and becomes a tacking dummy behind a great young offensive line. Protection is not just the responsibility of the O-line and we all know that this is one of Gibbs' pet peeves.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Originally posted by ShaggySkins
AGG, I understand what your saying but its difficult for me atleast to assume that since Ramsey is healthy now that he is going to be a pro bowler. I don't feel comfortable putting our playoff hopes on the shoulders of a guy who we THINK will be improved and healthy since he had surgery. Ramsey is still unproven in the league. Like I said before he has shown glimpses of being very good but he has also shown glimpses of being awful. He's still very young and inconsistent.



Name anyone on the Jags offensive line??? You probably can't, I know I can't and I know Brunell has gotten killed behind that line the last two years. Even when the guards were horrible he still had bookend tackles on that team which is better then Brunell had. Kyle Brady is also far from being a very good TE anymore. Last year he only had 29 receptions which is not very good. He's been on the decline the last 3 years. Also over the last 2 seasons Brunell has never had a #2 reciever as good as Gardner or a #3 as good as McCants. Brunell has had Matthew Hatchette and Patrick Johnson (yes that same one who is 5th on our depth chart). I'm not saying Brunell would have made a difference for the Jags had he started the entire season because that team was very young. And I really don't think the talent level is even since they were both 5-11. I think everyone on this board will agree including you when I say the Redskins UNDERperformed last year. They lost a lot of games they shouldn't have lost. Where as the Jags won some games they shouldn't have won.

Well, first off, the general opinion among most NFL writers I've seen is that the Jags were better than their 5-11 record, just like many have said about the Skins. Of course, with the Jags it was because of their defense andunning game, whereas the Skins were exactly the opposite. But how it's done isn't really important.

Brady in decline? Well, answer me this: Would you rather throw to him or the All-World Zeron Flemister?

And that same offensive line that blocked Fred Taylor's way to a 1,500-yard season and allowed the eigth fewest sacks in the league last year must be at least relatively good. As for naming them, well, Vince Manuwai plays in Jax.

Brunell may have never had a #2 receiver like Gardner, but then again, for half of Ramsey's career Gardner was his number one receiver.

Besides, this probably shouldn't even be a question of which team was better, overall talent, etc. People are completely ignoring the overall talent, and specifically the coaching talent, of the Redskins when they say that Ramsey should take a seat because of his 5-11 season. If they ignore it, why can't I?

[ShaggySkins]

Joe just answer me one question............

What has Ramsey done to make him deserve the starting job???

I don't want to know what you think he will do. But his actual stats and record. Just answer me that.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Done? You want to talk about done? Alright, let's go back to 2000. Obviously, we didn't need to start any young, talented corners back then, because we had Deion Sanders. I mean, the guy's a Hall of Famer for God's sake. Why would we need some youth on the field when we've got Neon Deion? And Bruce Smith, too! Who need young DEs? Bruce has been to four Super Bowls! What about Mark Carrier? I'm sure his overall record is better than Ohalete's. Or, hey, I heard Jeff George is looking for work, he's got playoff experience.

You cite Ramsey's lack of experience as a reason to sit him down, then ask for things he's done in order to have a good reason to start him. You can't have both. But if every team in the league went by your criteria, QBs would be starting until they were 40. "What's that first-round pick done to deserve the job? Aikman's been playing for fourteen years now, let's keep him in."

Jacksonville was smart enough to sit Brunell down in order to let their young quarterback grow. Why can't we do the same?

And what has Brunell done since Ramsey entered the league to earn the starting job?

[ShaggySkins]

Joe, I again repeat my question that you didn't answer SHOW ME THE STATS that show that he's a developing QB ready to take this team to the playoffs. This team could have VERY EASILY been 1-15 if you look back at our wins:

Jets 16-13 we win on a Hall field goal at the end of regulation. The Jets also did not have Chad Pennington and their defense is awful

Falcons 33-31 we win on a second half comeback when we were down by like 14 I believe? Again another very poor defense missing their starting QB.

Patriots 20-17 we win by a field goal again. The Pats were missing 11 guys from their starting lineup 6 of which on the defensive side.

Seattle 27-20 we win on a trick play TD Pass by Gardner. Good win but unless Coles makes the miracle play and forces the fumble of Damian Robinson we probably don't win this game.

Giants 20-7 Ramsey did not play, Hassellbeck started. Either way we probably would have won the Giants had given up.


We could have VERY EASILY lost those other 4 games. The reason Brunell was picked up is because he has proven he can still play.

Last 2 years for Brunell:
2002 Jacksonville Jaguars
Games Started: 15
Games Played: 15
Passes Attempted: 416
Passes Completed: 245
Completion Percentage: 58.9
Yards Thrown: 2788
Yards Per Attempt: 6.70
Touchdowns: 17
Interceptions: 7
20+ Yard Passes: 28
40+ Yard Passes: 6
QB Rating: 85.7

2003 Jacksonville Jaguars
GS: 3
GP: 3
Attempts: 82
Completions: 54
Completion %: 65.9
Yards thrown: 484
Touchdowns: 2
Interceptions: 0
20+ Yard Plays: 4
40+ Yard Plays: 1
QB Rating: 89.7
But your right Joe those last 2 years of Brunell are probably just inflated he probably still can't play can he???

For Ramsey
2002 Washington Redskins
Games Started: 9
Games Played: 5
Passes Attempted: 227
Passes Completed: 117
Completion %: 51.5
Yards Thrown: 1539
Touchdowns: 9
Interceptions: 8
20+ Yard Plays: 19
40+ Yard Plays: 5
QB Rating: 71.8

2003 Washington Redskins
Games Started: 11
Games Played: 11
Attempts: 337
Completions: 179
Completion %: 53.1
Yards: 2166
Touchdowns: 14
Interceptions: 9
20+ Yard Plays: 34
40+ Yard Plays: 3
QB Rating: 75.8

Ramsey is a developing QB and can't be expected to perform as well as Brunell given the points they are at in their respective careers. But by looking at the numbers Brunell clearly gives the team a better chance to win now.

[hail2skins]

I don't know Shaggy

Ramsey put us in position to win the Jets game with his scramble and run.

If we were down by two TD's in the Falcons game then Ramsey bought us back to win it.

It almost sounds as if you're blaming our losses on Ramsey.

What about the Carolina game. Ramsey put us in a situation to win it and our defense let us down. In alot of the games that were close one we lost, our defense let us down. I know you're not blaming Ramsey but that's how it came across to me.

[ShaggySkins]

I'm not blaming Ramsey for the losses but everyone who points and says well we could have been 9-7 if our defense lets us down also needs to look at the flip side and see that we also could have been 1-15 if we didn't catch some lucky breaks.
Look at Brunells numbers the last 2 years and honestly tell me he is not an immediate upgrade over Ramsey. He clearly is. People want numbers to show what Brunell has done and I tossed them out there. I want numbers now to show what Ramsey has done to deserve it over Brunell. And to show that he is entitled to the job like he has been acting.
Ramsey is going to be a very good QB in his career. But right now he is not ready to take a team to the playoffs. Some people here think Gibbs is going to be here for another 12 years but he's not. I honestly think Gibbs will be here for at most 4 years probably more like 3. Ramsey still probably needs atleast 2 more years in the league to develop. Brunell provides a very capable starter who worked very well with a young QB in Jacksonville. He also will let Ramsey sit on the bench for a year or two and watch a pro QB. Ramsey hasn't had the oppurtunity since he's been in the league to watch a legitimate pro QB (I'm not counting Matthews and Weurfuel because I don't consider them legitimate). I honestly just don't see why you guys find such fault in letting a young QB who nearly got killed last season sit a year and learn.

[rskinsfan10]

I totally agree with you Shaggy. Good job on pulling up those stats also.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Shaggy, again, you're making outrageous demands here. You contradicted yourself in your very first sentence. You can't show any stats of a developing QB in order to prove that he's done developing. That's the point. I wouldn't have been able to show you the stats of Chad Pennington in 2002. Why? Because there were none. I wouldn't have been able to show you the stats of Tom Brady in 2001. Why? Because there were none. I wouldn't have been able to show you the stats of Kurt Warner in 1999. Why? Because there were none.

But, okay, let's break down some stats here. You know the QB Ramsey was right behind in passer rating this year?: Donovan McNabb. What a loser, huh? I bet he didn't make it to the playoffs. Oh, and wow, can you even guess Quincy Carter's QB rating? 71.4. There's not a chance in hell he made it past Week 17. But all the ones at the top did, right? I mean, it's not like Daunte Culpepper, with a rating of 96.4, was left out the postseason. Aaron Brooks and Jon Kitna both had QB ratings better than the eventual Super Bowl winner. Do they get any trophies for that? Chad Pennington and Brad Johnson had better ratings than the other Super Bowl quarterback, so I suppose they played in the "Super Bowl Part II."

I could go on and on about stats. Jon Kitna, Brad Johnson, Daunte Culpepper, and Aaron Brooks all tossed more touchdown passes than Brady and Delhomme. Delhomme was twelfth in the league in passing yards, which naturally must mean that the Panthers barely scraped into the playoffs and bowed out in the first round, right?

The only stat that matters in the end is wins and losses. Put Ramsey's record next to Brunell's over the past two years. Which is better? This is not to claim that Ramsey is a better QB than Brunell right now. It's to say that Brunell is not overwhelmingly[ better than Ramsey, and that within a year, given the chance to start all 16 games, Ramsey could very well be the better QB. And, of course, to get people to stop yelling "5-11!" whenever anyone mentions that Ramsey should be starting. You do know Jacksonville's record last year, right?

[rskinsfan10]

All of the QBs whose passer ratings that you mentioned in your second paragraph do have one thing in common Joe:

They all finished with better records then the Skins did.

[ShaggySkins]

Chad Pennington had the oppurtunity to sit behind a veteran QB for a number of years. Tom Brady had the oppurtunity to sit behind a veteran QB for a year and learn. Kurt Warner played just about everywhere before he finally performed.

When has Ramsey had the chance to actually sit back and watch a good QB play??? All those guys you mentioned had the chance to sit back and learn the game from a distance. Sitting Ramsey behind center for another year of getting murdered isn't going to help him, its just going to take more years off of his career.

Quincy Carter, Jake Delhomme, and Donovan McNabb each had top 10 defenses last year. They could afford to make mistakes and their teams could win despite that. The Redskins defense isn't at that level and we can't expect them to improve to that level in one offseason. We need a QB that is going to protect the ball, complete a high percentage, and not put our defense in bad positions. Brunell is in a better position to do this then Ramsey is.

You don't think if we had a QB with a rating of 85.0 wouldn't improve this team??? Without Duante Culpepper last year having a monster year the Vikings would have been one of the worse teams in the league instead of competing for a playoff spot.

And if you want people to stop yelling 5-11 when you say Ramsey should be starting give us a reason other then he COULD be a good QB.

Again what is wrong with Ramsey sitting a year behind an experienced QB???

[skins74]

Ramsey wasn't the main problem last year it was the defense. If we would focus on that we would be on the right track.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Originally posted by ShaggySkins
Chad Pennington had the oppurtunity to sit behind a veteran QB for a number of years. Tom Brady had the oppurtunity to sit behind a veteran QB for a year and learn. Kurt Warner played just about everywhere before he finally performed.

I've never read anywhere that holding a clipboard while a vet is out there performing is better than actually getting the years of experience yourself. It's a good thing to let them sit for a couple years, yes, but that's because for those couple of years the team will probably do better. Rookie QBs just don't fare very well. After a certain point, though, they've gotta go out and do it themselves. The general thought when it comes to this is that being on the field will always yield more results than just sitting and watching.

When has Ramsey had the chance to actually sit back and watch a good QB play??? All those guys you mentioned had the chance to sit back and learn the game from a distance. Sitting Ramsey behind center for another year of getting murdered isn't going to help him, its just going to take more years off of his career.

Why is he going to get murdered this year? Why would Brunell be murdered any less?

Quincy Carter, Jake Delhomme, and Donovan McNabb each had top 10 defenses last year. They could afford to make mistakes and their teams could win despite that. The Redskins defense isn't at that level and we can't expect them to improve to that level in one offseason. We need a QB that is going to protect the ball, complete a high percentage, and not put our defense in bad positions. Brunell is in a better position to do this then Ramsey is.

Would you sit Carter, Delhomme, or McNabb for Brunell? Your argument isn't making much sense here. Because the other teams have better defenses, a better quarterback wouldn't help? And how has Brunell shown he can make a losing team better? 6-10 in 2002, winless in 2003. How is he improving a poor supporting cast? Where is the proof that he can pull more wins from a bad team than anyone else?

You don't think if we had a QB with a rating of 85.0 wouldn't improve this team??? Without Duante Culpepper last year having a monster year the Vikings would have been one of the worse teams in the league instead of competing for a playoff spot.

Yeah, Culpepper's great rating sure helped the Vikings make their bid for that NFC spot in the Super Bowl, huh? A QB with a rating of 85.0 would have won us maybe one more game. You don't think that most of our opponents wouldn't have been able to mount a comeback anyway? I mean, heck, let's look at the quarterbacks with around an 85 or better who didn't make the playoffs:

Brad Johnson
Chad Pennington
Jon Kitna
Aaron Brooks
Daunte Culpepper

What's the constant there? Good quarterback rating, bad surrounding talent, mostly on defense. So why would an 85.0 quarterback have helped us?

And if you want people to stop yelling 5-11 when you say Ramsey should be starting give us a reason other then he COULD be a good QB.

The two are completely unrelated. Give me a good reason why Ramsey's 5-11 record is any worse than Brunell's 5-11 record.

Again what is wrong with Ramsey sitting a year behind an experienced QB???

He loses a year of on-field experience himself. Let's assume it's only one year, as you have. When Ramsey takes the field in 2005, which will have helped more: Wacthing Brunell run that offense for a year, or running it himself?

[skinsorbust]

listen guys brunnel is just a 2.2 mil a year insurance policy and if he starts, gibbs thought he should...gibbs has always done this if one qb goes down which is always likely he has a decent qb to also lead the team.ramsey is complaining before the first mimi camp.shoot,its seems like he's afraid of the competition other than feeling backstabbed to me.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

That's a damn expensive insurance policy. What hurts even more is the loss of the draft pick.

[ShaggySkins]

Hey Joe, I think at this point we need to just agree to disagree. Neither one of us are budging on this issue and I think we could both argue about this till the start of next season.:Peace:

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Heh, very true. At least we both seem to agree about most other things, though. Udeze all the way!

[AGibbsGirl]

Shaggy will be the man if Brunell leads to the playoffs! :gwink: :honor: