Passion: Pontius Pilate

[SkinsGuru]

Pontius Pilate may not have been sympathetic, but he did NOT order the death of Jesus. He gave the people the choice as to let Jesus or Barabbas go. The "Chief Priests" AND the PEOPLE chose to allow a known murderer, Barabbas go and to have Jesus crucified. Pilot actually asked multiple times and proclaimed Jesus to be an innocent man. The PEOPLE still chose to crucify Jesus and so it was.

Below is a passage out of the Bible that tells of the trial.


Mark 15


Jesus Before Pilate

Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

"Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate. "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

The chief priests accused him of many things.

So again Pilate asked him, "Aren't you going to answer? See how many things they are accusing you of."

But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed.

Now it was the custom at the Feast to release a prisoner whom the people requested.

A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising.

The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did.

"Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate, knowing it was out of envy that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

"What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?" Pilate asked them.

"Crucify him!" they shouted.

"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=mark+15:1-15

[Yudolindo]

And we never, ever have considered that Christianity was a competitor religion to Judaism and thus had an interest in vilifying them? Have you every actually read a history of who Pilate and the Romans were and how they handled Passover unrest, other than the bible? Do you actually know how in fact most Jews viewed Jesus?

If you are claiming that the bible is an accurate and unbiased history of the subject, you are quite, quite wrong: the book, while retaining some generalized fact, is full of elaborations, embellishments, and falsehoods. Pilate killed Jesus, just as he ruthlessly killed thousands upon thousands before.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by Yudolindo

If you are claiming that the bible is an accurate and unbiased history of the subject, you are quite, quite wrong: the book, while retaining some generalized fact, is full of elaborations, embellishments, and falsehoods.


Name one...

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
Name one...

Nevermind... strike that... I need to go back to avoiding this forum like I was. Too much stress trying to debate.

You're right... the Bible is full of lies... everyone knows it. :rolleyes:

[dks1611]

Don't know about the book your talking about, but my Bible is infallible. Inspired and Preserved by God.

as the saying goes "It's not God people have a problem with, it's His words that they hate"

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
Nevermind... strike that... I need to go back to avoiding this forum like I was. Too much stress trying to debate.

You're right... the Bible is full of lies... everyone knows it. :rolleyes:

I never said the bible was full of lies, its just not all literally true. Here is one off the top of my head: the ratio of Pi that is given in the bible is exactly three. I will restate one example I used before.

The flood, for example: If some deluge covered the surface of the earth, we would not exist, because the air humidity would be so high that a mammal would drown by just breathing normally. Say we could breath: if every creature were loaded in to a boat two by two by one man, it would take hundreds, if not thousands of years to complete. Say if that were possible, the ark would be so huge as to make its enormity counter the structural and buoyancy properties of wood and it would crumble and sink under its own weight. I am a somewhat religious person, but I don’t kid myself. The bible is wisdom and some general history, not science. Trying to prove God is like trying to prove the color red: you can’t, because it’s different for everyone.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by Yudolindo
I never said the bible was full of lies, its just not all literally true. Here is one off the top of my head: the ratio of Pi that is given in the bible is exactly three. I will restate one example I used before.

The flood, for example: If some deluge covered the surface of the earth, we would not exist, because the air humidity would be so high that a mammal would drown by just breathing normally. Say we could breath: if every creature were loaded in to a boat two by two by one man, it would take hundreds, if not thousands of years to complete. Say if that were possible, the ark would be so huge as to make its enormity counter the structural and buoyancy properties of wood and it would crumble and sink under its own weight. I am a somewhat religious person, but I don’t kid myself. The bible is wisdom and some general history, not science. Trying to prove God is like trying to prove the color red: you can’t, because it’s different for everyone.

See, here's the problem. God does not operate under the laws of this world. But if as you say, this story isn't true, then the entire bible is false. It HAS to be. You know it's physically impossible for a man to raise from the dead three days after he was dead. I guess Jesus didn't do that then. Oh and there is no way to walk on water so that didn't happen. Oh and the plagues in Egypt were fake because that many plagues is just to coincidental. Lets see where can I go from here. Moses didn't split the Red Sea because well thats obviously impossible. As for your little PI reference. Do some research.

PI - http://www.yfiles.com/pi.html


Also did you know that the Ark was big enough to hold 2 747's with their wings detached? Do you know how much you can fit in that space.

Ark - http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/Magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp

Shall I continue proving that these things WERE possible?

*EDIT Plagues - http://www.godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=262&ItemID=554

[MrWiggles]

Originally posted by Yudolindo
The bible is wisdom and some general history, not science. Trying to prove God is like trying to prove the color red: you can’t, because it’s different for everyone.

I agree, and would like to elaborate (hope you don't mind)

Faith, n. - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

That is one of several definitions of the word. It is the only one (of the ones I found) that mentions proof or evidence and it specifically notes the lack of any.

Faith is great. Everyone should have some. If your faith, whatever it may be, gives you strength and helps makes the world more understandable then I am genuinely happy for you. However, just because you believe something does not turn the reasons for your belief into fact. Furthermore, just because a belief doesn't rest on incontrovertible facts doesn't diminish the power of the belief. I think it actually makes it stronger.

[Yudolindo]

“The Bible is not a scientific text book (though sometimes it makes scientific statements) and this specific passage wasn't intended to reveal the value of PI but to give a description of what the temple and its "furnishing" objects looked like. But given that the value "3" is within less than 5% error compared to the real value of PI = 3.14159.” I agree, accept the real value of Pi is not 3.14159, and the way they extract Pi is ass backwards. In fact, you would need to know forehand a summation of Pi to use it. This is backed up by the fact that no one took advantage of a Pi value out to that many places for many years to come. Perhaps someone just added a letter; if God put it there, why not plant the ratio that is correct out to a millionth place instead of some patch work guess? How about a working ratio, at least? Are you saying that God is bad at math? You should learn something about Pi before you suggest that the bible’s summation of it is even somewhat accurate. Further, why does the entire bible have to be true? Just because some of it is less than does not affect God’s infallibility: most of the bible was not written not by God but by man. Did Jesus rise from the dead? I don’t know, but there certainly are millions of people on earth who think not.

Uh, sure, you can continue to try, but I think you missed part of my point. The argument made before was that the flood was universal (Here (http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/AnswersBook/global10.asp)) . The site you mentioned--the same site-- suggests that it was localized and scales back the number of species involved etc. So which one is it? Is it not unimaginable that said stories are metaphoric? Don’t you think that god has better things to do than flood stuff? Isn’t it odd that early Mesopotamians had a similar myth of a catastrophic flood? Perhaps it was just a natural occurrence, that became part of an inherited, oral tradition that the Jews wrote down into scripture? I never said that the plagues were impossible; I just think it is possible that they could have been natural occurrences and that through the years they were embellished upon and given meaning. There is a saying that what is most often true: the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Moreover, why must faith be made into fact? Why can’t faith just be faith? My point was that you cannot simply take everything, including the bible’s stance on Pilate, at face value: the bible has motives, and if you want the facts, you must look for other sources to compare for reference. Often, as in the case of Pilate, the bible contradicts of all secular histories and reasoning on the matter, and there are quite logical motives for which it does.

[PennSkinsFan]

Mark 15, Matthew 27 seem to be the passages the proudcer is referring to as far as sympathy for Pilate. Whether one derives the same meaning or not is indivudal interpretation.

[SkinsGuru]

Originally posted by PennSkinsFan
Mark 15, Matthew 27 seem to be the passages the proudcer is referring to as far as sympathy for Pilate. Whether one derives the same meaning or not is indivudal interpretation.

Excactly!! This is the reason I created this thread, to show a possible reason why Mel Gibson would portray Pilate the way that he did.

As far as what is real, or what to believe about the bible . . . well I guess as long as were still alive we will never know . . . you just got to have faith!!

[Yudolindo]

Pilate, by all sources other than the bible, is described as a vicious monster. Then armed with the knowledge that the church has had an interest in absolving the Romans of responsibility for killing Jesus, perhaps it is indeed fair to question to accuracy of said passages. They have been edited for thousands of years. It’s not about interpretation: it’s about amalgamation of history to produce truth or close to it. I have faith, but it’s not blind.

[Ford]

Originally posted by Yudolindo
Pilate, by all sources other than the bible, is described as a vicious monster. Then armed with the knowledge that the church has had an interest in absolving the Romans of responsibility for killing Jesus, perhaps it is indeed fair to question to accuracy of said passages. They have been edited for thousands of years. It’s not about interpretation: it’s about amalgamation of history to produce truth or close to it. I have faith, but it’s not blind.

A very good post.

[RichardBradley]

What a movie..... I agree with the post ... Pilate was not the excutioner... He said he found no guilt and washed his hands of what was going to happen

[Yudolindo]

Originally posted by RichardBradley
What a movie..... I agree with the post ... Pilate was not the excutioner... He said he found no guilt and washed his hands of what was going to happen


:confused: :confused: :confused:

But, Pilate was the executioner, he ordered it...are you suggesting that the Jews are solely to blame?

[MrWiggles]

JFK - Oliver Stone
Malcolm X - Spike Lee
Schindler's List - Steven Spielberg
The Passion of the Christ - Mel Gibson

All of these directors took liberties with history in order to help create a particular mood or emotional tone for their movie. All of these movies were produced to entertain as well as inform. Sometimes the later has to give way a little to the former. There is nothing wrong with that. If all movies had to be 100% historically accurate, we would A) have some pretty boring movies and B) have one hell of a time checking to see if a script is accurate.

The major problem with any of these films is that people can be lazy and accept it as the only necessary source on a subject. Anyone who thinks they know the whole story on one of these subjects only from watching one of these films is sadly mistaken. (Particularly if we are talking about JFK, what a piece of dung).

[jporterweb]

PILATE DID NOT ORDER IT! Show me one document that Pilate ordered the execution? No he washed his hands of it and gave the people what they wanted.

As for my previous post on how the bible is real and literal. I shoulda known. People can't see obvious proof and realize that maybe just maybe they could be wrong. It sad. But has Skinz said, there is no sense trying to debate it because you are the only ones that are right and you can't be wrong and so it'll just get to stressful.

[BigCountry]

Exactly. I respect the fact that you believe in the bible and it's your right, but that's what it is, a matter of belief.

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by BigCountry
Exactly. I respect the fact that you believe in the bible and it's your right, but that's what it is, a matter of belief.

HUH? I never said anything about belief. I said there is tangible proof for most of the events in the bible.

[BackRow]

One thing I know, is that Jesus loves me! He died for me! He heals me, shows new mercy to me each day, watches over me, listens and talks to me, and directs my steps! Testamonies are non-debatable. Arguments over scripture are expected, but you cannot argue a real change in a persons life, and a walk like the Master walked. That is irrefutable. Christians need to remember that we overcome by 1. The blood of the lamb 2. The word of our testimony!
Tell what God has done in your life!
He gave me a good wife, great kids, even greater grand-kids, and a good household with good health! And for that, I am thankful! That, and a million other things!
Like talk forums!

[higgybaby]

Nobody is arguing that Pontius Pilate was a hero, nobody is arguing that Pontius Pilate is innocent, he could have outrightly freed Jesus!

I am about to make a statement that I am sure will be met with much fanfare....There is no single, earthly source to blame for killing Jesus. As has been stated by most Christians on this site. The Jewish religious leaders hated Jesus, so they arrested Him and delivered Him to the Roman official, Pontius Pilate, for execution. Pilate could have released Jesus, but he too, shares a responsibility because he succombed to the influence of yet a third party who contributed to the death of Jesus, the crowd in Jerusalem who kept shouting "Crucify Him!"(not to mention the political pressure that was coming down from Caeser himself to squash all of the uprisings that were becoming a nuisance)
Again, as most of the Christians have posted, it was sinners like me and you who killed Jesus. "While we were yet sinners," the Apostle Paul tells us, "Christ died for us"(Romans 5:8) No one can point a finger at any other person or group for the death of Jesus. Our sins were the reason Jesus had to be crucified.


I want to take this a step even further, ultimately, it was God the Father who killed His Son, Jesus. The Bible clearly says that Jesus was "delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God"(Acts 2:23) Jesus did not die by mistake. Although our sins made Jesus' death necessary, God brought it to pass. So in God's sending Jesus to recieve His wrath so others could recieve eternal life, sinners are saved from God, by God.


How arrogant, to believe that a single politician(Pontius Pilate) or a few religious leaders(The Jewish religious leaders) or a mob crowd(the chanting "Crucify Him!") (even as powerful as these three groups are) could possibly be responsible for the execution of a master plan to kill the Son of God, No. Only God, through the allowance of an unlikely chain of events. Through His Will alone could manipulate these things to happen, while at the same time allowing man to have his own free will.

[jporterweb]

For the most part. AMEN

[akhhorus]

Originally posted by Yudolindo
I never said the bible was full of lies, its just not all literally true. Here is one off the top of my head: the ratio of Pi that is given in the bible is exactly three. I will restate one example I used before.

The flood, for example: If some deluge covered the surface of the earth, we would not exist, because the air humidity would be so high that a mammal would drown by just breathing normally. Say we could breath: if every creature were loaded in to a boat two by two by one man, it would take hundreds, if not thousands of years to complete. Say if that were possible, the ark would be so huge as to make its enormity counter the structural and buoyancy properties of wood and it would crumble and sink under its own weight. I am a somewhat religious person, but I don’t kid myself. The bible is wisdom and some general history, not science. Trying to prove God is like trying to prove the color red: you can’t, because it’s different for everyone.

there is some geological evidence of a flood that coated the black sea basin. If you accept the current thinking that if Noah's Ark existed and it landed on Mt. Ararat(Northern Turkey). It is plausible that their whole region flooded and they thought it was the world that was flooded