Go Back   hailRedskins.com Fan Board > hR General Discussion Forums > Potomac hR Political Air Out

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

  #136  
Old 04-17-2012, 08:45 AM
RedskinsDave's Avatar
RedskinsDave RedskinsDave is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lawn Guyland, NY (my heart will always be in Arlington, Va)
Posts: 25,611
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
Again, if her statements are true, she fully complied with the Stand your Ground statute. Zimmerman did not. One was arrested on the scene. The other was not. Have fun fishing for dance moves to score debate points. It was something I stumbled upon today it was relevant to my points in the thread, points which you don't seem to want to address. At the end of the day, an article of clothing doesn't justify suspicion, especially when said article of clothing is appropriate for the weather. If it had be 85 degrees and sunny, then I can see why a hoodie might appear to be suspicious and even then, there should be suspicious behavior associated with it before calling the cops or making accusations.
The dance is looking for people who are sitting in jail for unjustified reasons. You assume it is because of their skin color with no proof of that. Do you have an example of a white person who did the same thing as her who got off or any proof that any other black woman has done the same thing and was treated the same?

Quote:
Edit: Funny how every example you come up with, the person you are outraged hasn't been convicted is still sitting behind bars, or did you not see the hand-gun charge plus the violation of juvenile probation. First Sean Taylor, now this one. Based on the facts of that case as presented in the article and the statute, that was a correctly applied "Stand your Ground" event.
I haven't been outraged over any of the examples I've given. They are just showing the other side of things.
__________________
The future is now.
Reply With Quote

  #137  
Old 04-17-2012, 08:46 AM
RedskinsDave's Avatar
RedskinsDave RedskinsDave is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lawn Guyland, NY (my heart will always be in Arlington, Va)
Posts: 25,611
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
No you aren't. You are going off of the information as you perceive it in the public domain. Nothing I have said would lead you to believe that All prisoners are black (Just half, which exceeds by a long shot our proportional percentage of the population as a whole) or that when a white person is killed by a black person it is cause for celebration. You invented that.
Yeah, its called sarcasm based on the comments from you and Eric.
__________________
The future is now.
Reply With Quote

  #138  
Old 04-17-2012, 10:07 AM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
The dance is looking for people who are sitting in jail for unjustified reasons. You assume it is because of their skin color with no proof of that. Do you have an example of a white person who did the same thing as her who got off or any proof that any other black woman has done the same thing and was treated the same?
No I don't and it's not central to my point at all. Crime stats and basic common sense support what I am saying. There are only 2 reasons that 12% of the population can make up 50% of Prison populations. Those 2 reasons are that the populous in question is more pre-disposed to committing crimes than anyone else, an issue which has been studied and concluded that no racial group is more pre-disposed to committing crimes than any other and that crime is a socio-economic issue. The second reason is that law enforcement targets said populous. You know, #1s. Feel free to address that at anytime. You won't because you know conceptually it is inherently racist and completely destroys your contention that race plays no role in how the police and prosecutors go about their business.

Everything I've dealt with on this thread has been to question why an individual (in this case, the victim) looked suspicious and why Police/Prosecutor bought a story that was hogwash. All you've been able to offer as to why is a bunch of crap dealing with things that don't matter (like maybe the kid sold weed, etc etc etc) and could not have possibly been known by the assailant in this case, completely ignoring that you need not look beyond the weather that day to explain the hoodie. As I said earlier, you are free to believe that Martin's race played no role in why he was thought of as suspicious, but those of us who have been pulled over for driving while black know otherwise. You are equally free to believe that race played no role in why Zimmerman was taken at face-value by someone with decision making authority.

I have contended that a black person would not have been given the benefit of the doubt under the exact same scenario (which means shooting a white teen). I wasn't looking for any articles, someone posted the one about the lady in Jacksonville to my news feed on facebook, read it and found it relevant to the discussion. Assuming it is true, Here is a situation where the victim admits to being an aggressor and a judge, seemingly making up her own law and ignoring what the statute says, indicates that the woman should have tried to escape. Juxtaposing the two cases that happened within 120 miles of each other in a "Stand your Ground" state.

Zimmerman wouldn't have even been arrested without the national outcry which led to the appointment of the Special Prosecutor. The guy was walking around, free to leave the country if he wanted, but somehow that's okay to you and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are the real culprits here. Not the numerous people who failed to do their jobs.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote

  #139  
Old 04-17-2012, 10:08 AM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
Yeah, its called sarcasm based on the comments from you and Eric.
Oh is that what that was? Wasn't very effective since you aren't addressing anything I have said.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote

  #140  
Old 04-17-2012, 11:47 AM
RedskinsDave's Avatar
RedskinsDave RedskinsDave is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lawn Guyland, NY (my heart will always be in Arlington, Va)
Posts: 25,611
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
No I don't and it's not central to my point at all. Crime stats and basic common sense support what I am saying. There are only 2 reasons that 12% of the population can make up 50% of Prison populations. Those 2 reasons are that the populous in question is more pre-disposed to committing crimes than anyone else, an issue which has been studied and concluded that no racial group is more pre-disposed to committing crimes than any other and that crime is a socio-economic issue. The second reason is that law enforcement targets said populous. You know, #1s. Feel free to address that at anytime. You won't because you know conceptually it is inherently racist and completely destroys your contention that race plays no role in how the police and prosecutors go about their business.
The socio-economic issue is a big one. Go into any major city in America and find the worst neighborhood as far as crime and blight are concerned. Take Brooklyn for example. Where I live there is almost no crime and therefore very few cops. In East New York or Brownsville, it is the opposite. Those areas are mostly black and Hispanic. Is that the police being predisposed to look for certain races or are those the people committing the crimes.

Quote:
Everything I've dealt with on this thread has been to question why an individual (in this case, the victim) looked suspicious and why Police/Prosecutor bought a story that was hogwash. All you've been able to offer as to why is a bunch of crap dealing with things that don't matter (like maybe the kid sold weed, etc etc etc) and could not have possibly been known by the assailant in this case, completely ignoring that you need not look beyond the weather that day to explain the hoodie. As I said earlier, you are free to believe that Martin's race played no role in why he was thought of as suspicious, but those of us who have been pulled over for driving while black know otherwise. You are equally free to believe that race played no role in why Zimmerman was taken at face-value by someone with decision making authority.
Your oppression aside, it is pretty obvious from his previous 911 calls that Zimmerman considers anyone he doesn't know in the neighborhood to be suspicious. How can that be ignored?

Quote:
I have contended that a black person would not have been given the benefit of the doubt under the exact same scenario (which means shooting a white teen). I wasn't looking for any articles, someone posted the one about the lady in Jacksonville to my news feed on facebook, read it and found it relevant to the discussion. Assuming it is true, Here is a situation where the victim admits to being an aggressor and a judge, seemingly making up her own law and ignoring what the statute says, indicates that the woman should have tried to escape. Juxtaposing the two cases that happened within 120 miles of each other in a "Stand your Ground" state.
And it appears the judge in her case is wrong, assuming we have all the information. Are there any sources other than her own site?

Quote:
Zimmerman wouldn't have even been arrested without the national outcry which led to the appointment of the Special Prosecutor. The guy was walking around, free to leave the country if he wanted, but somehow that's okay to you and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are the real culprits here. Not the numerous people who failed to do their jobs.
Whether or not they failed to do their jobs remains to be seen. If he is acquitted by a jury, they can contend they were correct all along. My issue with the two nitwits is turning everything from justice to us against them.
__________________
The future is now.
Reply With Quote

  #141  
Old 04-17-2012, 12:09 PM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
The socio-economic issue is a big one. Go into any major city in America and find the worst neighborhood as far as crime and blight are concerned. Take Brooklyn for example. Where I live there is almost no crime and therefore very few cops. In East New York or Brownsville, it is the opposite. Those areas are mostly black and Hispanic. Is that the police being predisposed to look for certain races or are those the people committing the crimes.
Yes, it is a big one and the line between socio-economic and race issues in this country sometimes gets blurred a bit. There are all sorts of reasons why blacks tend to represent a disproportionate number of poor. But at the end of the day it is poverty more than race that drives blue-collar crime. WHite collar crime is almost exclusively committed by those in better socio-economic situations, across racial lines.

To answer your question, it is both. It is police being predisposed to focusing their efforts on certain people and it is more crime taking place in "lower" socio-economic communities. I can write a whole treatise on the methods of the drug war, with stats and the whole 9, but that would sidetrack the discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
Your oppression aside, it is pretty obvious from his previous 911 calls that Zimmerman considers anyone he doesn't know in the neighborhood to be suspicious. How can that be ignored?
Interesting you mention those, because I am given to understand that he actually watched a burglary take place and waited until it was over before calling the authorities. It makes me wonder what was different here? I think we both agree that Zimmerman was a coward. But I think there is a pretty obvious reason why this isn't being given much attention.....in none of those other incidents, that I am aware of, did he actually approach the "suspicious" individual as he did in this case. I am given to wonder again, what was different? Could he have been simply fed-up? I suppose that's possible, but I think it more likely that he drew a conclusion based on a false premise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
And it appears the judge in her case is wrong, assuming we have all the information. Are there any sources other than her own site?
Like I said, I did no investigation, so I agree, it appears. It's why I have couched my statements as "if true".

There is a case in Tampa, involving all black people, in which a woman store owner invoked "Stand Your Ground" in the killing of a teen who was arrested yesterday. Turns out, she was not at the scene when the shooting occurred and invoked"Stand your Ground" in an effort to protect her boyfriend who actually did the killing. The dead kid has been reclassified from suspect to victim, the woman is behind bars facing, among other things, obstruction charges and the boyfriend is wanted.Had they not taken action in that case I would be outraged.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
Whether or not they failed to do their jobs remains to be seen. If he is acquitted by a jury, they can contend they were correct all along. My issue with the two nitwits is turning everything from justice to us against them.
See you seem to think that I want to see a conviction. I am perfectly willing to let a jury sort that out. To me, the failure was in the failure to arrest given the facts and circumstances. There was enough on the face to get an arrest. The State of FL is lucky Zimmerman didn't have the funds to pull a Samuel Sheinbein.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote

  #142  
Old 04-17-2012, 12:31 PM
RedskinsDave's Avatar
RedskinsDave RedskinsDave is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lawn Guyland, NY (my heart will always be in Arlington, Va)
Posts: 25,611
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
Yes, it is a big one and the line between socio-economic and race issues in this country sometimes gets blurred a bit. There are all sorts of reasons why blacks tend to represent a disproportionate number of poor. But at the end of the day it is poverty more than race that drives blue-collar crime. WHite collar crime is almost exclusively committed by those in better socio-economic situations, across racial lines.

To answer your question, it is both. It is police being predisposed to focusing their efforts on certain people and it is more crime taking place in "lower" socio-economic communities. I can write a whole treatise on the methods of the drug war, with stats and the whole 9, but that would sidetrack the discussion.
And I am sure that is where we would agree. A point is that police are human and they know that a certain group commits certain crimes at a higher rate where they are, who do you think they will pay closer attention to? Even black cops arrest more black people.

Quote:
Interesting you mention those, because I am given to understand that he actually watched a burglary take place and waited until it was over before calling the authorities. It makes me wonder what was different here? I think we both agree that Zimmerman was a coward. But I think there is a pretty obvious reason why this isn't being given much attention.....in none of those other incidents, that I am aware of, did he actually approach the "suspicious" individual as he did in this case. I am given to wonder again, what was different? Could he have been simply fed-up? I suppose that's possible, but I think it more likely that he drew a conclusion based on a false premise.
I'm not familiar with the burglary. I do agree he is a coward and I do believe his cowardice led to Martin's death. He may not have been armed the night of the burglary. I am quite sure having his trusty weapon on made him feel more like a vigilante.

Quote:
Like I said, I did no investigation, so I agree, it appears. It's why I have couched my statements as "if true".

There is a case in Tampa, involving all black people, in which a woman store owner invoked "Stand Your Ground" in the killing of a teen who was arrested yesterday. Turns out, she was not at the scene when the shooting occurred and invoked"Stand your Ground" in an effort to protect her boyfriend who actually did the killing. The dead kid has been reclassified from suspect to victim, the woman is behind bars facing, among other things, obstruction charges and the boyfriend is wanted.Had they not taken action in that case I would be outraged.
The whole law needs to be tossed.

Quote:
See you seem to think that I want to see a conviction. I am perfectly willing to let a jury sort that out. To me, the failure was in the failure to arrest given the facts and circumstances. There was enough on the face to get an arrest. The State of FL is lucky Zimmerman didn't have the funds to pull a Samuel Sheinbein.
I don't know if Zimmerman would have ran anyways. He and many legal experts think he has a case.
__________________
The future is now.
Reply With Quote

  #143  
Old 04-17-2012, 01:32 PM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
And I am sure that is where we would agree. A point is that police are human and they know that a certain group commits certain crimes at a higher rate where they are, who do you think they will pay closer attention to? Even black cops arrest more black people.
That's correct. It's kinda the point I was making when I said one not need to be white make a judgment based on stereotypes. We all do it. Sometimes the worst stereotypes are perpetuated by the very group the stereotype is about. At some point Police get jaded by what they see as well. I don't discount the human element. In fact, the stereotyping is emphasizing the human element.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
I'm not familiar with the burglary. I do agree he is a coward and I do believe his cowardice led to Martin's death. He may not have been armed the night of the burglary. I am quite sure having his trusty weapon on made him feel more like a vigilante.
I didn't give it much weight, it came out when a ton of speculation was swirling about. I just thought it was interesting, if true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post

The whole law needs to be tossed.
I actually like the law, but I do think it needs to be clarified. It was written with the intention of people who use their weapons in a home invasion being safe from prosecution. The problem is that it fails to take into account how easy it is to get a concealed permit. I think that is the greater worry. The number of yahoos that can carry concealed. If Zimmerman isn't carrying concealed, we are having a very different sort of discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
I don't know if Zimmerman would have ran anyways. He and many legal experts think he has a case.
I know I would have if it were me. My half latin ass would have gone straight to Venezuela. I wouldn't even take the chance, based on the attention this got.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote

  #144  
Old 04-17-2012, 01:56 PM
akhhorus's Avatar
akhhorus akhhorus is offline
hR Staff Writer
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Monty Burns County
Posts: 61,242
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
The whole law needs to be tossed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
I actually like the law, but I do think it needs to be clarified. It was written with the intention of people who use their weapons in a home invasion being safe from prosecution. The problem is that it fails to take into account how easy it is to get a concealed permit. I think that is the greater worry. The number of yahoos that can carry concealed. If Zimmerman isn't carrying concealed, we are having a very different sort of discussion.
The law should be what it is in most states, if you have a reasonable belief of fear for your life(or someone else's in your immediate vicinity) deadly force can be warranted. But even in those cases, it goes to a grand jury(and you can hold the shooter as a material witness). Opening it up to vague interpretations over what constitutes what someone is allowed to defend leads to crap like this. And the cops essentially being forced to walk away from the investigation due to the law(which is what the city claimed initially) is an absurdity.
__________________
Thanks for everything Johnny White Guy.
Reply With Quote

  #145  
Old 04-17-2012, 02:29 PM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
The law should be what it is in most states, if you have a reasonable belief of fear for your life(or someone else's in your immediate vicinity) deadly force can be warranted. But even in those cases, it goes to a grand jury(and you can hold the shooter as a material witness). Opening it up to vague interpretations over what constitutes what someone is allowed to defend leads to crap like this. And the cops essentially being forced to walk away from the investigation due to the law(which is what the city claimed initially) is an absurdity.

I like the idea that if someone comes into my house, I can put them down without asking any questions or without getting sued for protecting my family.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote

  #146  
Old 04-17-2012, 02:31 PM
RedskinsDave's Avatar
RedskinsDave RedskinsDave is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lawn Guyland, NY (my heart will always be in Arlington, Va)
Posts: 25,611
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
I like the idea that if someone comes into my house, I can put them down without asking any questions or without getting sued for protecting my family.
You can't. I can. You know why.
__________________
The future is now.
Reply With Quote

  #147  
Old 04-17-2012, 02:32 PM
akhhorus's Avatar
akhhorus akhhorus is offline
hR Staff Writer
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Monty Burns County
Posts: 61,242
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
I like the idea that if someone comes into my house, I can put them down without asking any questions or without getting sued for protecting my family.
That would be a "reasonable belief of fear for your life(or someone else's in your immediate vicinity)."
__________________
Thanks for everything Johnny White Guy.
Reply With Quote

  #148  
Old 04-17-2012, 03:03 PM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
You can't. I can. You know why.
Anyone who comes in my house uninvited looks suspicious to me. Black, white, yellow, green, polka dot, plaid......
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote

  #149  
Old 04-17-2012, 09:48 PM
RedskinsDave's Avatar
RedskinsDave RedskinsDave is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lawn Guyland, NY (my heart will always be in Arlington, Va)
Posts: 25,611
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
Anyone who comes in my house uninvited looks suspicious to me. Black, white, yellow, green, polka dot, plaid......
Plaids are harmless. Don't be such a patternist.
__________________
The future is now.
Reply With Quote

  #150  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:48 AM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedskinsDave View Post
Plaids are harmless. Don't be such a patternist.
You sir, have obviously never walked through a plaid neighborhood by yourself at night.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:36 AM.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
| Home | Register | FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search | New Posts |