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  #31  
Old 05-04-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
Okay no player was punished as severely as Williams, but Vilma's punishment is equal to Payton's. His bounties on Favre and Warner as evidence by the fact they each finished the games in question?
I don't see how failing to knock them out should be points in Vilma's favor. The Warner game was the last of his career due to injuries. And they beat the living crap out of Favre also. Vilma got the 16 games because he appears to have been as much of a leader of the bounty system as G-Dub was.

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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
If the NFL wants to be consistent, that's exactly what it would do. Punishing team leaders for following the instructions of their coordinator doesn't strike me as any better or worse than actively participating in the program.
The nfl said that the players who were suspended weren't just active participants: they were leading the program also with G-Dub I believe.

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My biggest beef is that players from teams not the Saints are having to pay a price here.
*shrug* If you sign a player who tested positive for drugs/roids while with his previous team but the appeal didn't finish until he signed with you, you're SOL also.

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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
I though Hargrove played for the Packers.
Thats right, my bad. The more I think about it, the more I think that the Saints will be in FU mode for that national game opener. Especially playing at home.
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  #32  
Old 05-04-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by justinskins View Post
I thought Brees was franchised and the only issue was a long-term deal? I can't see Brees sitting out a regular-season game...
He hasn't signed his one-year deal yet and is missing voluntary workouts. I'm sure he'll be with the team by camp, but this isn't exactly the ideal off-season for a team to be at its best in Week 1.
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  #33  
Old 05-04-2012, 11:31 AM
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The bothering part of all of this is that NFL players seem more motivated by Vilma's $10K bounty than their actual game checks, which are obviously much higher in value.

I remember watching both games in question and being in awe of how motivated the Saints were in rushing the passer. Now we know why.
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  #34  
Old 05-04-2012, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinSkin View Post
I'm not sure it has to be a must-win, but I do think the game needs to be a statement. Our defense needs to be massively disruptive, forcing hurries and poor decisions.

Offensively, I think RGIII should come out throwing deep often. They will be playing with a massive chip on their shoulders, and a few deep completions will keep them from cheating everyone into the box. I would like to see up tempo with a receiver going deep on every pass play.
It has the makings of one of the more interesting games of the early season. Two teams everybody will be curious to take a close look it, but for very different reasons.
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  #35  
Old 05-04-2012, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
I don't see how failing to knock them out should be points in Vilma's favor. The Warner game was the last of his career due to injuries. And they beat the living crap out of Favre also. Vilma got the 16 games because he appears to have been as much of a leader of the bounty system as G-Dub was.
It's relevant from the standpoint that no evidence of such a bounty has been presented to Mr. Vilma and his representatives. Since neither I nor He have seen this evidence, I can only go by what I saw in the games. They beat up the QBs, but no more than any other QB gets beat up in the playoffs. I don't believe there was malicious intent to injure anyone, just hit them hard and often to lower their enthusiasm.....this is after all, football.


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Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
The nfl said that the players who were suspended weren't just active participants: they were leading the program also with G-Dub I believe.
Without presenting evidence of this.



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Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
*shrug* If you sign a player who tested positive for drugs/roids while with his previous team but the appeal didn't finish until he signed with you, you're SOL also.
I think there is a clear difference. Timing is one difference. A positive drug test doesn't come out and get punished 5 years after the fact. A positive PE drug test is an integrity of the game issue and a team would be aware of a pending appeal. In other words they know they are buying a potentially defective product. Green Bay nor Cleveland could have seen this coming.


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Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
Thats right, my bad. The more I think about it, the more I think that the Saints will be in FU mode for that national game opener. Especially playing at home.
I cannot say that I blame them.
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Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
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  #36  
Old 05-04-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
It's relevant from the standpoint that no evidence of such a bounty has been presented to Mr. Vilma and his representatives. Since neither I nor He have seen this evidence, I can only go by what I saw in the games. They beat up the QBs, but no more than any other QB gets beat up in the playoffs. I don't believe there was malicious intent to injure anyone, just hit them hard and often to lower their enthusiasm.....this is after all, football.

Without presenting evidence of this.
A former federal prosecutor was brought in to independently review the evidence(not that the league was under obligation to show the public or the Saints the evidence) and she agreed it was substantial. They have witness reports, they have primary source info, the Saints players/coaches were dumb enough to write the rules down.

Here's a video of hits on Favre in that game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZCVCZNc50

*The hit on the reverse 25 seconds in looks intentional
*33 seconds in looks designed to hurt. Should have been called as leading with the helmet
*Hargrove hit 55 seconds in looks like planting Favre
*dive to the knees 1.47 in looks clearly like an attempt to injure.

I don't know how anyone can look at either game and think there wasn't something else going on in that game.


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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
I think there is a clear difference. Timing is one difference. A positive drug test doesn't come out and get punished 5 years after the fact. A positive PE drug test is an integrity of the game issue and a team would be aware of a pending appeal. In other words they know they are buying a potentially defective product. Green Bay nor Cleveland could have seen this coming.
The bounty system was going on as recently as their last playoff game in 2011. Even after they were told that the NFL knew that they lied about stopping it 3 years ago.
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  #37  
Old 05-04-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
A former federal prosecutor was brought in to independently review the evidence(not that the league was under obligation to show the public or the Saints the evidence) and she agreed it was substantial. They have witness reports, they have primary source info, the Saints players/coaches were dumb enough to write the rules down.

Here's a video of hits on Favre in that game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZCVCZNc50

*The hit on the reverse 25 seconds in looks intentional
*33 seconds in looks designed to hurt. Should have been called as leading with the helmet
*Hargrove hit 55 seconds in looks like planting Favre
*dive to the knees 1.47 in looks clearly like an attempt to injure.

I don't know how anyone can look at either game and think there wasn't something else going on in that game.
I do not dispute at all that the program was in place at an institutional level. What I dispute is that these 4 players were doing anything but following the leadership of their coaches, or were more actively participating than the other 18-22 players. Did the league go back and fine the players for those hits at 25, 33, 55 and 1.47 marks? They certainly review every game tape and do their MMQB routine every week.

In this country, we as a fundamental concept, give the accused due process. While I understand that there is no legal obligation and that the league is wholly governed by the CBA, It seems to me that the players should have been presented with the evidence and given a chance to defend themselves.


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Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
The bounty system was going on as recently as their last playoff game in 2011. Even after they were told that the NFL knew that they lied about stopping it 3 years ago.
Yes, the coaches lied about stopping it. As far as I can tell, no player was informed by the league to stop the bounties which is why I cannot condone any player getting an equal punishment.....and I sand by the comment that the players that are on other teams, those fans and organizations should be shielded from this punishment. Fine them the game checks, but don't take away players from teams that had nothing to do with this.
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Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
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  #38  
Old 05-04-2012, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
I do not dispute at all that the program was in place at an institutional level. What I dispute is that these 4 players were doing anything but following the leadership of their coaches, or were more actively participating than the other 18-22 players.
I guess we'll find out in the grievance hearing. The NFL is under no obligation to proffer evidence to the team, players or public until then.

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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
In this country, we as a fundamental concept, give the accused due process. While I understand that there is no legal obligation and that the league is wholly governed by the CBA, It seems to me that the players should have been presented with the evidence and given a chance to defend themselves.
Vilma asked for and was scheduled to meet with Goodell, Vilma backed out. And there is due process: the players(and/or union) can file a grievance about it. Telling is that the grievance filed by the Union on their behalf doesn't deny any accusations in the case, just on technical grounds.


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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
Yes, the coaches lied about stopping it. As far as I can tell, no player was informed by the league to stop the bounties which is why I cannot condone any player getting an equal punishment.....and I sand by the comment that the players that are on other teams, those fans and organizations should be shielded from this punishment. Fine them the game checks, but don't take away players from teams that had nothing to do with this.
There's no way that the players weren't warned when the league told the Saints to stop it a couple years ago. No way.
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  #39  
Old 05-04-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
I guess we'll find out in the grievance hearing. The NFL is under no obligation to proffer evidence to the team, players or public until then.
Yes we will.


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Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
Vilma asked for and was scheduled to meet with Goodell, Vilma backed out. And there is due process: the players(and/or union) can file a grievance about it. Telling is that the grievance filed by the Union on their behalf doesn't deny any accusations in the case, just on technical grounds.
Didn't know the first part. You have a link to the grievance? I'd like to read it.

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Originally Posted by akhhorus View Post
There's no way that the players weren't warned when the league told the Saints to stop it a couple years ago. No way.
Not directly they weren't. The league warned the organization, who was trusted to share it with the players. At least that is my understanding.
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Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
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  #40  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:00 PM
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Fujita may get his suspension knocked down a game,but the league will take this to court before knocking vilma's down.he is SOL cause other than greg williams,he's the ring leader in all of it according to the NFL.
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  #41  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:05 PM
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Dunno why, but every time I see the name Vilma I think of Fred Flintstone...
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  #42  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
Didn't know the first part.
For the first part


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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
You have a link to the grievance? I'd like to read it.
Still looking for the full text, but the ESPN sums it up well:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/78...ty-suspensions

Quote:
The NFL Players Association has filed a pair of grievances challenging the authority of NFL commissioner Roger Goodell to suspend four players for their involvement in the New Orleans Saints' bounty program.

In the first, filed with arbitrator Shyam Das, the NFLPA argues that Goodell is prohibited from punishing players for any conduct prior to Aug. 4, when the current collective bargaining agreement took effect.

"In connection with entering into the 2011 CBA, the NFL released all players from conduct engaged in prior to the execution of the CBA, on August 4, 2011," the grievance says.

The section of the CBA cited by the union is a covenant not to sue -- an agreement in which the NFL and its teams pledged not to file lawsuits against the union and its members "with respect to conduct occurring prior to the execution of this Agreement."
And
Quote:
In the second grievance, the NFLPA argues that arbitrator Stephen Burbank, who serves as the "system arbitrator" for the league and its players' union, has the authority to rule on the players' conduct, rather than Goodell.

Burbank, a law professor at the University of Pennsylvania, is the same person hearing a grievance brought by the Washington Redskins and Dallas Cowboys over penalties assessed by the NFL for alleged violations of the league's salary cap.

According to the NFLPA grievance, the bounties, as non-disclosed payments to players, are a collective bargaining issue under the jurisdiction of the arbitrator and not Goodell.
NOthing about the facts, just technical questions.

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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
Not directly they weren't. The league warned the organization, who was trusted to share it with the players. At least that is my understanding.
Even if that was true(that the Saints didn't tell the players about the NFL warning), that doesn't exonerate them.
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  #43  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:35 PM
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I am not saying that the players are exonerated just that the coaches/organizations actions and non-actions are more egregious since they were in direct contact with the league over the issue.

I find the player's penalties to be excessive. I am not arguing that they shouldn't be punished at all......and that means all 20-whatever participants, not just the 4 here.
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Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
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  #44  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Keino View Post
I am not saying that the players are exonerated just that the coaches/organizations actions and non-actions are more egregious since they were in direct contact with the league over the issue.

I find the player's penalties to be excessive. I am not arguing that they shouldn't be punished at all......and that means all 20-whatever participants, not just the 4 here.
I'd fine them all every cent that they got from the bounties, and I would start suspending players for intentional hits designed to injure. However, if Vilma et al were leading the bounty program like the coaches were, then the punishment makes sense.
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Last edited by akhhorus : 05-04-2012 at 03:52 PM.
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  #45  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:52 PM
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If by court you mean a court of law, I think not. If by court you mean an arbitration or grievance panel, then probably.
I Can see Vilma taking this to a court of law if he has to sit out a year.Just like snyder and jones will take the league to court if they are'nt satisfied with the salary cap ruling.
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