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  #16  
Old 04-08-2004, 05:24 PM
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akhhorus akhhorus is offline
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also keep in mind that this is from the NRLC, who are violently opposed to abortion
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  #17  
Old 04-09-2004, 04:38 PM
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higgybaby higgybaby is offline
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Why don't YOU go back to the link, take a look at the sections immediately following the one the you paraphrase, starting with Section 90A, subsection (a)(1) and (2)(A), and then tell me why I am wrong.
The Bill that Kerry voted for refers to any act that "terminates" the pregnancy of an expectant mother, and purposely leaves out the word murder, while at the same time treats the crime as a single act against the mother. You are wrong according to section:


``(a)(1)Any person who engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the termination of a pregnancy or the interruption of the normal course of pregnancy, including termination of the pregnancy other than by live birth is guilty of a separate offense under this section.

This Bill he voted for, calling the crime a "termination of pregnancy" The Bill that he voted against called the crime what it is, "murder". As far as the bet goes I like Peanut Buster Parfait's from Dairy Queen.

More info on Kerry's position : But hey as much as he changes his position from day 2 day maybe tomorrow he will change his mind

Sharon Rocha, Mother Of Laci Peterson And Grandmother Of Conner Peterson, Sought Kerry's Support Of UVVA. "Please understand how adoption of such a single-victim proposal would be a painful blow to those, like me, who are left to grieve after a two-victim crime, because Congress would be saying that Conner and other innocent victims like him are not really victims -- indeed, that they never really existed at all." (Sharon Rocha, Mother Of Laci Peterson, Letter To Senator John Kerry [D-MA] As Provided On National Right To Life Committee Website, link1, 7/7/03)


Kerry Would Call Murder Of An Unborn Child A "Termination Of Pregnancy Or Interruption Of The Normal Course Of Pregnancy." Senator Kerry would treat the murder of an unborn child as a crime committed solely against the mother. He voted in favor of an amendment that would have characterized murdering an unborn child as the "termination of pregnancy or interruption of the normal course of pregnancy." (Amendment: link2 link2

Kerry Chose To Play Abortion Politics. "Although this legislation exempts performing abortions from prosecution, this bill would clearly impact a woman's right to choose to terminate her pregnancy, as that right is set forth in Roe vs. Wade." (Sen. John Kerry [D-MA], E-mail To A Constituent As Provided On National Right To Life Committee Website, http://www.nrlc.org, 6/27/03)

The Fact Is UVVA Specifically Exempts Abortion. Very clear language in the bill specifically exempts abortion from being covered.
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  #18  
Old 04-12-2004, 10:40 AM
dukeuch dukeuch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higgybaby
The Bill that Kerry voted for refers to any act that "terminates" the pregnancy of an expectant mother, and purposely leaves out the word murder, while at the same time treats the crime as a single act against the mother. You are wrong according to section:


``(a)(1)Any person who engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the termination of a pregnancy or the interruption of the normal course of pregnancy, including termination of the pregnancy other than by live birth is guilty of a separate offense under this section.

This Bill he voted for, calling the crime a "termination of pregnancy" The Bill that he voted against called the crime what it is, "murder". As far as the bet goes I like Peanut Buster Parfait's from Dairy Queen.

More info on Kerry's position : But hey as much as he changes his position from day 2 day maybe tomorrow he will change his mind

Sharon Rocha, Mother Of Laci Peterson And Grandmother Of Conner Peterson, Sought Kerry's Support Of UVVA. "Please understand how adoption of such a single-victim proposal would be a painful blow to those, like me, who are left to grieve after a two-victim crime, because Congress would be saying that Conner and other innocent victims like him are not really victims -- indeed, that they never really existed at all." (Sharon Rocha, Mother Of Laci Peterson, Letter To Senator John Kerry [D-MA] As Provided On National Right To Life Committee Website, link1, 7/7/03)


Kerry Would Call Murder Of An Unborn Child A "Termination Of Pregnancy Or Interruption Of The Normal Course Of Pregnancy." Senator Kerry would treat the murder of an unborn child as a crime committed solely against the mother. He voted in favor of an amendment that would have characterized murdering an unborn child as the "termination of pregnancy or interruption of the normal course of pregnancy." (Amendment: link2 link2

Kerry Chose To Play Abortion Politics. "Although this legislation exempts performing abortions from prosecution, this bill would clearly impact a woman's right to choose to terminate her pregnancy, as that right is set forth in Roe vs. Wade." (Sen. John Kerry [D-MA], E-mail To A Constituent As Provided On National Right To Life Committee Website, http://www.nrlc.org, 6/27/03)

The Fact Is UVVA Specifically Exempts Abortion. Very clear language in the bill specifically exempts abortion from being covered.
Higgy:

You are still wrong because you are not reading all of the amendment's sections, andeven are misinterpreting the one you cite above. You said that the bill the bill treats the crime as soley against the mother. You are getting caught up in the description of "termination of pregnancy" instead of "murder" regarding the fetus. The very section you quote above is talking about the fetus when it says the person is guilty of a seperate offense. It means guilty of an offense seperate from the offense committed against the mother.

And what is to be done regarding this seperate offense? Look at the next section, which says that the punishment for that seperate offense will be the same as the punishment provided for the crime against the mother. In other words, if the convicted is found guilty of murdering the mother and sentenced accordingly, and it is found that the convicted also terminated the murdered mother's pregnancy, they will receive seperate punishment for that termination of pregnancy, the same as the punshment received for the murder of the mother.

Sounds convoluted? Not really. The intent of the amendment is clearly to hold the convicted responsible for the termination of the pregnancy while taking great pains to not call it murder. The obvious reason is to prevent a women's right to an abortion from becoming illegal, because if termination of pregnancy by a criminal were considered "murder" why would not a termination requested by a the pregnant women or the performing doctor?

This amendment clearly holds the convicted responsible for the crime against the fetus, so you are wrong in your initial statement that "Senator Kerry would treat the murder of an unborn child as a crime committed solely against the mother". In fact, it is the opposite, he supported a bill and amendment that would hold the criminal responsible for the crime against the fetus. It goes so far as to hold the criminal responsible even if they did not know the mother was pregnant! This is obvious.

The organization you have linked to is concerned with "right to life". Their issue is not that the criminal be held responsible for his actions against the fetus, but rather that the crime is not defined as murder even if the criminal gets the same sentence as if it was defined as murder. That is their right, they are trying to make abortion's illegal, but their citing of this amdment does not support YOUR premise.

If your point is that abortion is murder, well, that is something different entirely. That's a "woman's right to choose" vs. "right to life" issue. The only thing Kerry is "guilty" of here is trying to change the bill so that the convicted can be prosecuted without opening up a can of worms regarding abortion.

I urge you to read again the following, and try again to show me why I am wrong, or let me know if your issue is really that the definition should be murder, not that the criminal does not receive punishment for the crime against the fetus.

My taste run more towards adult beverages. I'll have a Knockando, neat.

``(2)(A) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided for that conduct under Federal law had that injury or death occurred to the pregnant woman.

``(B) An offense under this section does not require proof that--

``(i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or

``(ii) the defendant intended to cause the termination or interruption of the normal course of pregnancy.

``(C) If the person engaging in the conduct thereby intentionally causes or attempts to cause the termination of or the interruption of the pregnancy, that person shall be punished as provided under section 1111, 1112, or 1113, as applicable, for intentionally terminating or interrupting the pregnancy or attempting to do so, instead of the penalties that would otherwise apply under subparagraph (A).

``(D) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the death penalty shall not be imposed for an offense under this section.

``(b) The provisions referred to in subsection (a) are the following:
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