Interesting tidbit on Declaration of Independence

[Skinzaholic]

John Adams (#2 President) wrote two letters to his wife Abigail the day after Congress approved the Declaration. The first was short and concise, jubilant that the Declaration had been approved. The second was much longer and more pensive, giving serious consideration to what had been done that day.

Adams cautiuosly noted: "This day will be the most memorable epic in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival."


He went on to add...

"The general principles on which the Fathers acheived independence were the general principles of Christianity."



Interesting foresight...

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Not entirely sure what Christianity has to do with democracy, but, hey, he was there when they wrote it.

[Spence]

Joe, Mr Adams wasn't terribly keen on democracy. President Adams enacted the Alien and Sedition Acts. This legislation permitted him to imprison people who criticized the president. It was grossly unconstitutional, of course, and helped mobilize enough opposition to ensure Adams was a one-term president. His successor was Thomas Jefferson, who, interestingly enough, rejected traditional Christianity in favor of Deism.

Adams was a great patriot and independence leader, but a truly horrible president.

[Skinzaholic]

It is my personal view that TRUE Democray would not even have worked without Christian morals. That is the precise reason why our Democracy is on the decline.

As for Adams and his political views, that is interesting Spence, thanks for the info. I dont have much knowledge on his polictical success/failure... just reading a book about his life and found that quote interesting.

[Skinzaholic]

Actually, upon further reading I found out some information regarding our "Democracy"...


It seems we have grown accustomed to hearing that we are a democracy; but this was never the original intent of our Founders. The form of government they originally intended was not a democracy at all... but a Republic. Our Founders had the opportunity to establish a democracy in America and chose not to. In fact, the Founders made clear that we were not, and were never to become, a democracy:

"Democracies have veer been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. - James Madison - (Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, James Madison, "The Fedralists on the New Constitution" - 1818)

:Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." - John Adams - ("The Word of John Adams" - Charles Francis Adams - 1815).

"The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived." - John Quincy Adams - ("The Jubilee of the Constitution - a speech written in April 1839).


The difference between a democracy and a republic is the source of authority. A pure democracy operates by direct majority vote of the people. When an issue is to be decided, the entire population votes on it; the majority wins and rules. A republic differs in that the general population elects representatives who then pass laws to govern the nation. A democracy is the rule by majority feeling; a republic is rule by law.

The Founding men also went on to describe IN DETAIL what should be the source of law for the American republic...


"Our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion." - Noah Webster - ("History of the United States" - 1832).




The truth is that our modern day version of government and American society is almost OPPOSITE what the original men planned out and envision. Most have no idea this has happened... and that is why it is so important to me.



Comments?

[Spence]

Skinz, we call ourselves a democracy, but a more accurate epithet would be a democratic republic. A democracy in the literal sense of the word--seen most clearly in the New England townships--is probably impossible in a nation our size. The Framers created a republic so that the day-to-day passions of public affairs would be cooled by elected representatives. The Framers never intended to create a New England or Icelandic-style direct democracy. Instead, they created a democratic republic.

[Spence]

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
[b]
"Our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion." - Noah Webster - ("History of the United States" - 1832).B]

This is NOT what the Framers intended. Had they done so, they would have written as much in the U.S. Constitution. Instead, they wrote a document that declares quite clearly that the United States has no official religion and must never have an official religion.

But even if the democratic principles of the Framers did come from Christianity, what would that mean? How would things be any different than they are now?

[Skinzaholic]

Actually Spence... you are mistaken. Libraries across the country are filled with the opinions of the "Framers" (dont get that one) themselves who would disagree with your translation of their intentions. The Founding Fathers were intending to deviate from what they had seen in their former nations under Monarch rule... that is a government who dictates the how, why, where and when their people worship. Their intentions were to bring the freedom to express yourself during worship to all men.

BUT, many of them clearly stated in several documents that this religion SHOULD be Christianity. (They stopped short of actually documenting it either due to fear of doing just what they were leaving... or else they just assumed everyone understood).

There is a ton of documentation on this, some of which I will try to put here for you.


As for how would things be different... that is the problem. The so-called "modern thinkers" have squeezed Christianity out of our democratic republic, thus causing what we have today. Afterall, if there is no God, then why not do whatever I weant to do? Who will set the laws and standards?

The original men who started our nation had an assumption that those laws and standards would be set by the Bible... unfortunately today we have taken things into our own hands.



So far, little has been shown by anyone to actually REFUTE the facts I have brought on the subject throughout this forum. Usually I just get some uneducated personal opinion against the Bible... that is too easy because if I acknowledge my roots, I might just have to acknowledge what it says...


SHOW me facts that show those men condoned homosexual relationships or freedom to practice ANY religion. (That includes aitheism (the belief there is NO God), New Age (the belief that everything is god), humanism (the belief WE are god), and so on. Seems things really get confusing when we stop and think about it. Can't imagine those boys in 1800 thinking through all of that and coming up with a plan THIS good.

[JoeDaSchmoe]

Originally posted by Spence
Joe, Mr Adams wasn't terribly keen on democracy. President Adams enacted the Alien and Sedition Acts. This legislation permitted him to imprison people who criticized the president. It was grossly unconstitutional, of course, and helped mobilize enough opposition to ensure Adams was a one-term president. His successor was Thomas Jefferson, who, interestingly enough, rejected traditional Christianity in favor of Deism.

Adams was a great patriot and independence leader, but a truly horrible president.

I'm not getting into whether or not he was a great President, or how supportive of democracy he was. I'm just not too sure where the basic principles of Christianity are in our government.

And, yes, we're a republic, and while a true democracy would never work now, it'll be interesting to see if that'll be changed in the next fifty years due to technology.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by JoeDaSchmoe
And, yes, we're a republic, and while a true democracy would never work now, it'll be interesting to see if that'll be changed in the next fifty years due to technology.

Good question... and it will be interesting to see how technology effects how we handle problems... how much power will judges and stuff have in the future... technology is already messing up the Kobe case...

[IowaSkinsFan]

Democracy is the worst form of self government ever created...........except for every other type.

[SkinsKY]

Democracy works when people the people have a basic and common morality and agreed way to live. That's why Alex de Toqueville was surprised to see so few police officers in the US when he visited in the early 1800s. The people had made a conscious decision to adhere to the rules because there is honor in following the rules and respecting others. This respect and consideration for others is found most clearly in the Bible and in Christian document that the most importmant commandment given by Jesus (after complete dedication to God) was to love your neighbor as yourself.

With that in mind, democracy can and did fluorish. There came a point in or history though (I tend to point towards the New Deal) where things began to break down and people were more concerned about what they weren't getting than giving what they had. If people spent as mch of their time being responsible as they did griping about issues, this wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem.

Now before I get off too much. Christian principles are at the base of the Declaration. Take Free Will instance. That is something at the heart of Christianity as well. We have the choice to to go one way or another. If our options were limited, then we wouldn't have complete free will. In the same way, our founders wanted to extend that right as a God-given right to its citizens and could not do so by declaring a state religion or limiting others, or even recommending a certain faith. Whether you are a Christian or not, the principles make sense in creating a healthy society, and the founders knew that.

[SkinsKY]

Oh yeah...GO USA!!!

Originally posted by Spence
This is NOT what the Framers intended. Had they done so, they would have written as much in the U.S. Constitution. Instead, they wrote a document that declares quite clearly that the United States has no official religion and must never have an official religion.

You have said this before, and I have come to the conclusion that you are misunderstanding it. (or seeing something that was not intended.) That was put in as to not "push" any religion on anyone. The country was founded on God and that's the way the government would make laws etc unoffcially...but if you practiced other religions, that was ok. It was a freedom to practice other religions. Who knew it would have backfired as badly it has today. Without God no country will survive. This has been proven 100% true, yet we (USA) don't have the foresight to see that we're cutting God out, and not learning from what History has taught us.

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
It is my personal view that TRUE Democray would not even have worked without Christian morals. That is the precise reason why our Democracy is on the decline.

This is truly the best comment i've seen in a while. We think very much alike skinz. Keep up the good work.