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  #31  
Old 02-23-2006, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Bear
the smart thing to do would be agree to terms on a deal with Abraham before finalizing the trade so it wouldnt cost us 9 million...but most anything going around now is all speculation and assumptions, a new CBA and everything changes. Some teams dont really know what to prepare for just yet
Why would Abraham sign a much lesser deal with any other team(say 3-6 million a year), when he could just sign his tender and force that team(jets or whomever trades for him) to pay him 9 million for 06?
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  #32  
Old 02-23-2006, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bear
the smart thing to do would be agree to terms on a deal with Abraham before finalizing the trade so it wouldnt cost us 9 million...but most anything going around now is all speculation and assumptions, a new CBA and everything changes. Some teams dont really know what to prepare for just yet
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we would need 9 mil in space to acquire Abraham. The Jets don't need to have that much space available if he agrees NOT to sign the deal in order to get trade.

If he does sign, THE JETS are responsible for the one year, 9 mil deal. If he gets traded at that point, the team would be allowed to scrap that whole contract before the trade becomes official (or rather the transaction -- giving a team 24 hrs to work one out). That's why teams that trade for a player usually have the contract worked out/ready to sign when they get here.

If he gets traded BEFORE he signs, then he's basically a free agent with the rights being GIVEN to the traded team. The Jets would rescind the Franchise Tag and make the trade.
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  #33  
Old 02-23-2006, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus
Why would Abraham sign a much lesser deal with any other team(say 3-6 million a year), when he could just sign his tender and force that team(jets or whomever trades for him) to pay him 9 million for 06?
Akh, why wouldn't he if he got for example $10 mil upfront in a signing bonus??? Players are ALWAYS about the money in their pocket.. they don't care if their deal is for 6 mill or 10 mil a year average. They just want to see that $10-$15mill in their pocket at the end of the day...
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  #34  
Old 02-23-2006, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin4Life
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we would need 9 mil in space to acquire Abraham. The Jets don't need to have that much space available if he agrees NOT to sign the deal in order to get trade.

If he does sign, THE JETS are responsible for the one year, 9 mil deal. If he gets traded at that point, the team would be allowed to scrap that whole contract before the trade becomes official (or rather the transaction -- giving a team 24 hrs to work one out). That's why teams that trade for a player usually have the contract worked out/ready to sign when they get here.

If he gets traded BEFORE he signs, then he's basically a free agent with the rights being GIVEN to the traded team. The Jets would rescind the Franchise Tag and make the trade.
First off, I don't think you can just trade for the rights to a franchised player. You can with restricted free agents, but the tag is different.
Second off, if you're offering a deal worth half or so of what the tag is, the player would just sign the tender offer.
The Skins didn't really trade Champ Bailey, the Broncos technically signed him to a contract like any free agent and the Skins and them worked out Portis as compensation for signing Champ. Teams work out the compensation for signing franchise players, but they aren't trades. The teams sign them away and compensate the teams.

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Originally Posted by Redskin4Life
Akh, why wouldn't he if he got for example $10 mil upfront in a signing bonus??? Players are ALWAYS about the money in their pocket.. they don't care if their deal is for 6 mill or 10 mil a year average. They just want to see that $10-$15mill in their pocket at the end of the day...
But the complicating problem is that since the player has been tagged, the team that ends up with him has to pay him the average of the top 5 at his position. So you couldn't just give them a high bonus, low salary contract. You would have to average the contract out to the tender offer, and no player is going to sign a contract that is extremely backloaded(say vets minimum for the first year and most of the money in payments he'll never see). Forget about Abe coming to the Skins. It is extremely unlikely since the Skins don't have much to offer them and don't have the cap room, even if the new CBA rises the cap level.
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Last edited by akhhorus : 02-23-2006 at 01:15 PM.
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  #35  
Old 02-23-2006, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by akhhorus
At the Draft Party in 04 at Fedex Field, Lavar showed up right after Taylor was drafted and afterwards he was signing autographs and when I was seriously 5 feet away from Lavar, I yelled at him: "Drop your grievance Lavar!!!!!". He gave me look that said: "I will kill you". And he left, and when he got to a safe distance away, I yelled it at him again. I could have taken him if he tried anything The absolute highlight of it was the look on Fent's face when I did it.
Wow, lol.
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  #36  
Old 02-23-2006, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Spence
Bad idea, if true.
Agree, agree.

I think we should keep our LB corps intact for next year.
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  #37  
Old 02-23-2006, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus
Why would Abraham sign a much lesser deal with any other team(say 3-6 million a year), when he could just sign his tender and force that team(jets or whomever trades for him) to pay him 9 million for 06?
well, any team that trades for him without an agreement in place for a long term deal are idiots first off. i dont think many if any teams are stupid enough to trade away for a high caliber player for 9 million with the chance he would leave the next year. Abraham is unhappy with the tag this year, as he was last year. Dude wants a longterm contract plain and simple. He would forget all about that 9 mill guaranteed for one year, for a longterm deal. Abraham would more than make up that 9 mill in a longterm deal.
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  #38  
Old 02-23-2006, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bear
well, any team that trades for him without an agreement in place for a long term deal are idiots first off. i dont think many if any teams are stupid enough to trade away for a high caliber player for 9 million with the chance he would leave the next year. Abraham is unhappy with the tag this year, as he was last year. Dude wants a longterm contract plain and simple. He would forget all about that 9 mill guaranteed for one year, for a longterm deal. Abraham would more than make up that 9 mill in a longterm deal.
The problem being that since he's a franchise player, he doesn't have to leave to go anywhere if he doesn't like the contract offered. The only way the Jets can "trade" him is if he signs his tender-which means at the bare minimum, the team trading for him would have to give him the 9 million for 06 or more to get him to sign a long term deal.
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  #39  
Old 02-23-2006, 01:52 PM
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With regards to Ray Lewis:

Cue up the O'Jays

:muzic
"They smile in your face,
All the time they wanna take your place,
The Backstabbers!
(chorus) Backstabbers!"

No way no day do I want Ray on this team. Not only do I find him morally repugnant on an OJ Simpson level but I would lose one of my inmate numbers that I use to talk trash with my misguided Ravens friends.
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  #40  
Old 02-23-2006, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus
First off, I don't think you can just trade for the rights to a franchised player. You can with restricted free agents, but the tag is different.
That's exactly what we did with Bailey... he OFFICIALLY was not under contract with us but he couldn't talk to other teams due to the franchise tag. Here is the Times article describing the tag and what we did with (or planned to at the time of the article) Bailey.

http://washingtontimes.com/sports/20...1446-2077r.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus
Second off, if you're offering a deal worth half or so of what the tag is, the player would just sign the tender offer.
The Skins didn't really trade Champ Bailey, the Broncos technically signed him to a contract like any free agent and the Skins and them worked out Portis as compensation for signing Champ. Teams work out the compensation for signing franchise players, but they aren't trades. The teams sign them away and compensate the teams.
The Franchise tag is for only 1 year (in Abe's case, it's for $8.3mil)... but if we got Abe and signed him to a 6 yr, 36 mil deal with $10-12mil in a signing bonus, he would literally see $2 mil or so more than signing the franchise deal despite averaging less than the 8.3.

Here's an article about the deal Bailey got. The franchise for Bailey was 6.5 per year; his deal was 7 yrs 63 mil but that included a $18 mil signing bonus and 5 mil more in incentives. Subtract that from the total and he has a salary of 40 mil. If the deal is backloaded, he'll never see any of that money. So in the Bailey case, it's the rare case of getting both the big bonus and the large AVERAGE total in contract.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?...nfl&id=1749678

But in the case of Corey Simon, he got a 6 yr 30 mil deal with a $13 mil signing. The AVERAGE PER YEAR was LESS than the one year franchise offer of $5.4 mil but he saw $13.5-$14 mill go into his bank account this year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus
But the complicating problem is that since the player has been tagged, the team that ends up with him has to pay him the average of the top 5 at his position. So you couldn't just give them a high bonus, low salary contract. You would have to average the contract out to the tender offer, and no player is going to sign a contract that is extremely backloaded(say vets minimum for the first year and most of the money in payments he'll never see). Forget about Abe coming to the Skins. It is extremely unlikely since the Skins don't have much to offer them and don't have the cap room, even if the new CBA rises the cap level.
This whole paragraph is a misinterpretation of being tagged. All the player is GUARANTEED is a one year deal of the average top 5 players at his position. If he is tagged again, then the average is increased to 120% of the figure. If he's tagged with the transition, then it's the average of the top 10 players. But it's a guarantee for only a one year deal.... the tag has NO bearing on the long term contract.
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  #41  
Old 02-23-2006, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus
The problem being that since he's a franchise player, he doesn't have to leave to go anywhere if he doesn't like the contract offered. The only way the Jets can "trade" him is if he signs his tender-which means at the bare minimum, the team trading for him would have to give him the 9 million for 06 or more to get him to sign a long term deal.
Not true, Bailey only got $0.54 mil in GUARANTEED salary after the trade (it's on the NFLPA website). His deal had NOTHING to do with the obligation that the Skins would have had by tagging him.

Also, a player can't talk to other teams if he's franchise tagged without permission from the team. So the Jets would have had to give us permission to talk to Abe before the trade. Then the deal would be in place of the signing and the next day the transaction would be in the books with a new deal in place. Look for it to happen on a weekend since then the teams involved would get from 5p on Friday to start of business on Monday to get a deal done. Same way we could do the Moss deal without affecting the books for the Jets (taking Coles deal and restructuring it during the weekend).

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  #42  
Old 02-23-2006, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin4Life
That's exactly what we did with Bailey... he OFFICIALLY was not under contract with us but he couldn't talk to other teams due to the franchise tag. Here is the Times article describing the tag and what we did with (or planned to at the time of the article) Bailey.

http://washingtontimes.com/sports/20...1446-2077r.htm

The Franchise tag is for only 1 year (in Abe's case, it's for $8.3mil)... but if we got Abe and signed him to a 6 yr, 36 mil deal with $10-12mil in a signing bonus, he would literally see $2 mil or so more than signing the franchise deal despite averaging less than the 8.3.
Yes yes, but he would have to agree to that contract(and the contract would have to be for at least a yearly average of the tender offer) and the Jets would have to agree on compensation. Why would Abe take that deal and what would we give the jets? Ramsey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin4Life
Here's an article about the deal Bailey got. The franchise for Bailey was 6.5 per year; his deal was 7 yrs 63 mil but that included a $18 mil signing bonus and 5 mil more in incentives. Subtract that from the total and he has a salary of 40 mil. If the deal is backloaded, he'll never see any of that money. So in the Bailey case, it's the rare case of getting both the big bonus and the large AVERAGE total in contract.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?...nfl&id=1749678

But in the case of Corey Simon, he got a 6 yr 30 mil deal with a $13 mil signing. The AVERAGE PER YEAR was LESS than the one year franchise offer of $5.4 mil but he saw $13.5-$14 mill go into his bank account this year...
One BIG problem with your comparison. The Eagles revoked the Franchise tag on Simon and he became a Unrestricted Free Agent. If the Colts had signed him while he was tagged, the contract would have to have been for the tender average or higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin4Life
This whole paragraph is a misinterpretation of being tagged. All the player is GUARANTEED is a one year deal of the average top 5 players at his position. If he is tagged again, then the average is increased to 120% of the figure. If he's tagged with the transition, then it's the average of the top 10 players. But it's a guarantee for only a one year deal.... the tag has NO bearing on the long term contract.
It has to do with what the player gets in a long term deal. You have to pay them at least an average of what their tender is. Simon doesn't count in this comparison since he wasn't a franchised player when he signed with the Colts. And if the player in question is offered a long term deal for much less than the franchise tag, why would they sign it?
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  #43  
Old 02-23-2006, 03:29 PM
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Not true, Bailey only got $0.54 mil in GUARANTEED salary after the trade (it's on the NFLPA website). His deal had NOTHING to do with the obligation that the Skins would have had by tagging him.
His base salary doesn't matter. His average pay from the length of the contract was above what the tender amount was. Also, the NFLPA website just lists base salary amounts, not guaranteed money in thecontract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin4Life
Also, a player can't talk to other teams if he's franchise tagged without permission from the team. So the Jets would have had to give us permission to talk to Abe before the trade.
Wrong. Even a tagged player is still a free agent. He can talk a deal with ayone he wants. If a team wants to sign him and give the original team compensation, they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin4life
Then the deal would be in place of the signing and the next day the transaction would be in the books with a new deal in place. Look for it to happen on a weekend since then the teams involved would get from 5p on Friday to start of business on Monday to get a deal done. Same way we could do the Moss deal without affecting the books for the Jets (taking Coles deal and restructuring it during the weekend).
You're wrong again. The tagged player is no different than any Free agent. The one exception to this is the "exclusive rights Franchise tag", which means the player is tendered much more money(the average of the top 5 players at his position after April 16th of the year he was tagged) in exchange that he cannot negotiate with other teams. The regular franchise tags, which are being applied now, allow the players to talk to whomever they want to. Theexclusive rights tag cannot be applied until after the start of Free agency. The team that tagged him has the right to match any offers and get compensation if he signs somewhere else. But the player can talk deals with any team interested. No franchise players are actually "traded". They are signed by the team and compensation is worked out. Sean Gilbert was signed away by the Panthers as our franchise player and since they never worked out compensation with the Skins, they were forced by league rules to surrender their next two 1st round picks as compensation not as a "trade". Thats in the league rules.
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Last edited by akhhorus : 02-23-2006 at 03:38 PM.
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  #44  
Old 02-23-2006, 03:44 PM
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Apparently we're both wrong cause of a little distinction that makes us both right (the "exclusive" and "non-exclusive" part):

Quote:
Each Club can designate one of its players who would otherwise be an UFA or RFA as a Franchise Player each season. Any Club that designates a Franchise Player as "exclusive" shall be the only Club with which that Franchise Player may negotiate or sign a contract. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as a Franchise Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest salaries (as of April 15) for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater. Here is the kicker: if the team elects to name the player "non-exclusive" then the player shall be permitted to negotiate a contract with any Club as if he were an UFA; however, Draft Choice Compensation of TWO first round draft selections shall be awarded to the prior club in the event that he signs with the new club. If the player elects to play with the prior club (the team that designated him with the Franchise tag) and does not negotiate another contract with that team, then the one year salary is guaranteed. Also, if the prior club elects to withdraw the qualifying offer, the player becomes an UFA. The distinction between the "exclusive" versus "non-exclusive" designation is that, for a "non-exclusive" Franchise Player, the team must tender an offer that is the minimum of the average of the five largest prior year salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.
http://www.askthecommish.com/freeagency/
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  #45  
Old 02-23-2006, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhhorus
His base salary doesn't matter. His average pay from the length of the contract was above what the tender amount was. Also, the NFLPA website just lists base salary amounts, not guaranteed money in thecontract.



Wrong. Even a tagged player is still a free agent. He can talk a deal with ayone he wants. If a team wants to sign him and give the original team compensation, they can.



You're wrong again. The tagged player is no different than any Free agent. The one exception to this is the "exclusive rights Franchise tag", which means the player is tendered much more money(the average of the top 5 players at his position after April 16th of the year he was tagged) in exchange that he cannot negotiate with other teams. The regular franchise tags, which are being applied now, allow the players to talk to whomever they want to. Theexclusive rights tag cannot be applied until after the start of Free agency. The team that tagged him has the right to match any offers and get compensation if he signs somewhere else. But the player can talk deals with any team interested. No franchise players are actually "traded". They are signed by the team and compensation is worked out. Sean Gilbert was signed away by the Panthers as our franchise player and since they never worked out compensation with the Skins, they were forced by league rules to surrender their next two 1st round picks as compensation not as a "trade". Thats in the league rules.
Akh, how can someone talk to someone if they're not allowed to? I found nothing saying that the exclusive rights tag can't be applied at the same time as the franchise tag or prior to FA. You say that if a person is "exclusive rights" he can't talk to anyone as a RFA or UFA could... I'm confused now.
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