Colt warming up

[OCSKINSFAN]

Originally Posted by redskin_rich

I don't think he is a franchise QB. He is a serviceable QB that won't make many mistakes but he is not and probably will never be the kind of QB that can make plays to win games, on his own.
His reading and recognition of defenses and situations is poor. His decision making is slow. His pocket awareness is horrible. He has no touch on short passes, quick slants and hot routes.

That is also essentially my opinion. I differ somewhat on pocket awareness - I would rate it fair. What I would add, and which is also crucial to the West Coast offense, is he has a slow release. Quick slants in particular are ineffective with JC.

[shally]

Originally Posted by OCSKINSFAN

That is also essentially my opinion. I differ somewhat on pocket awareness - I would rate it fair. What I would add, and which is also crucial to the West Coast offense, is he has a slow release. Quick slants in particular are ineffective with JC.

put me in that camp as well.. watching garcia get rid of the ball repeatedly, at the last second, and while moving around in the pocket, was a demonstration of how a WCO qb is supposed to function. tampa lost, but it wasnt because of garcia

JC is neither quick enough with his release, quick enough with his feet, nor quick enough with his reads to be effective right now. there is hope for the last one; there is no hope for the first two problems

he is a poor qb for a true WCO.. he can become a better qb, but he wont ever have the skillset needed to excel in that particular system. zorn either modifies it to better fit JC, or JC ultimately fails..

[shally]

Originally Posted by Patrick

JC's improvement from this point will be based mostly on how well the offensive line is improved. If the Skins are satisfied with the O-line as is now -then you're seeing the best JC will ever be.

JC needs an O line of the quality of the one that mark rypien had to truly excel.
whether the front office can provide one is another matter.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Originally Posted by shally

JC needs an O line of the quality of the one that mark rypien had to truly excel.
whether the front office can provide one is another matter.

Or the offense like Rypien had. As you pointed out, Campbell is a strong armed QB. Not ideal for the WCO. A quick release and softer arm, i.e. Pennington, Garcia and Montana work better. But there a number of QB's with slower releases and strong arms who have thrived in the WCO. Short list includes McNabb, Steve Young and Hasselbeck.

[Farmer Ted]

Originally Posted by redskin_rich

I don't think he is a franchise QB. He is a serviceable QB that won't make many mistakes but he is not and probably will never be the kind of QB that can make plays to win games, on his own.
His reading and recognition of defenses and situations is poor. His decision making is slow. His pocket awareness is horrible. He has no touch on short passes, quick slants and hot routes.

I pretty much agree with that 100%. Sometimes he is excruciatingly slow with his decisions. One of the announcers yesterday called him "non-chalant" at times in the pocket. The sack-fumble play early in the game (vs. Philly) was classic JC. The blitz was coming, he pump-faked to an open receiver on a short route (I think it was Thrash, but it was hard to tell), then he patted the ball two times, then he spotted someone downfield and slowly stepped forward and started to throw the ball, just as the pocket was collapsing on him (and OUT! goes the ball). It just drove me nuts. The ball-patting has got to go, but I have a bad feeling he's never going to get rid of it. He either had to just eat the sack, try to step up in the pocket quicker and get away from the pressure (not sure if that was going to happen), or just dump the ball to the short route. Instead, he took the slow route, and we were extremely lucky to recover the fumble.

[BBeale29]

...did anyone at the eagles game see Colt Brennan and Santana Moss during the pregame? My feeling is that Santana KNOWS Colt has "IT". Jason is too "stiff" in ALL aspects of the game.

[ClubSandwichGuy]

I'm seeing the same things you guys are seeing. The slow release, the poor reads, and the bad pocket presence is all there. But maybe at least part of JC's struggles have to do with supporting cast issues. We need a good Oline and a game breaker wide receiver to help Campbell out. I think there is a good chance that with the right cast and one or two more years in the system that JC can develop into the QB we saw at the beginning of the season. I'm not a real big believer in Colt and Collins is too old to be the answer. If it's my decision, we give Cambell at least one more year.

[shally]

Originally Posted by ClubSandwichGuy

I'm seeing the same things you guys are seeing. The slow release, the poor reads, and the bad pocket presence is all there. But maybe at least part of JC's struggles have to do with supporting cast issues. We need a good Oline and a game breaker wide receiver to help Campbell out. I think there is a good chance that with the right cast and one or two more years in the system that JC can develop into the QB we saw at the beginning of the season. I'm not a real big believer in Colt and Collins is too old to be the answer. If it's my decision, we give Cambell at least one more year.

raalistically, he gets 1 more year-- or the better part of one more year. that is it.
after that, either zorn pulls the plug on him, or he and zorn get dumped together..

[shally]

Originally Posted by BBeale29

...did anyone at the eagles game see Colt Brennan and Santana Moss during the pregame? My feeling is that Santana KNOWS Colt has "IT". Jason is too "stiff" in ALL aspects of the game.

please.. moss doesnt know jack..

[firehawk157]

Originally Posted by ClubSandwichGuy

I'm seeing the same things you guys are seeing. The slow release, the poor reads, and the bad pocket presence is all there. But maybe at least part of JC's struggles have to do with supporting cast issues. We need a good Oline and a game breaker wide receiver to help Campbell out. I think there is a good chance that with the right cast and one or two more years in the system that JC can develop into the QB we saw at the beginning of the season. I'm not a real big believer in Colt and Collins is too old to be the answer. If it's my decision, we give Cambell at least one more year.

I would see what each brings to preseason and make a decision then. Best player plays. If JC is the franchise QB we all hope he is, it should be very apparent.

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Originally Posted by shally

raalistically, he gets 1 more year-- or the better part of one more year. that is it.
after that, either zorn pulls the plug on him, or he and zorn get dumped together..

Well let me ask you this, what if he keeps making the same strides forward? It cannot be debated that he is better this year than last year. The stats clearly bear that out. So our young QB improved over last year. Isn't that what we hope for? If he improves more (a few more TD's thrown (say 17), a few more points per game, maybe completes 65% of his passes), but we still finish 9-7 or so, then what?

[wide_awake]

Originally Posted by ClubSandwichGuy

I'm seeing the same things you guys are seeing. The slow release, the poor reads, and the bad pocket presence is all there. But maybe at least part of JC's struggles have to do with supporting cast issues. We need a good Oline and a game breaker wide receiver to help Campbell out. I think there is a good chance that with the right cast and one or two more years in the system that JC can develop into the QB we saw at the beginning of the season. I'm not a real big believer in Colt and Collins is too old to be the answer. If it's my decision, we give Campbell at least one more year.

A couple things on this...

1) I didn't particular care for early-season Campbell. He was the same QB then: moderately successful with a great supporting cast. When Portis is averaging 130+ yards a game, there is no reason why your QB shouldn't have better stats than "game manager". It was similar to T. Jackson in Minnesota last year, when Peterson was running wild and T. Jackson was failing to take advantage of a great situation due to his lack of talent. Steve Young was talking how if T. Jackson couldn't do it, their were plenty of QBs who could. We were all happy to ride Portis, but why were we satisfied with game-manager play from Campbell? Is that really all we want? A quarterback who won't lose the game when he is playing in front of the best RB in football (at the time) with a solid defense? There are plenty of game-manager QBs, but is that what we were expecting when we traded UP into the first round for him?

2) Campbell is 26, and will be 27 next week. If we are patient with him and give him 2 seasons, he'll be 29 years old starting the third year!

[firehawk157]

Originally Posted by SkinsfaninNJ

Well let me ask you this, what if he keeps making the same strides forward? It cannot be debated that he is better this year than last year. The stats clearly bear that out. So our young QB improved over last year. Isn't that what we hope for? If he improves more (a few more TD's thrown (say 17), a few more points per game, maybe completes 65% of his passes), but we still finish 9-7 or so, then what?

17 is a disgustly low number of TDs for a QB to throw. What you are saying is you want a franchise QB, a guy we intend on retaining for a decade more, to produce 17 TDs. That puts the onus on the RBs to get 20 TDs all by themselves to make us a decent offense. It'll be hard to get RBs to 20 TDs to COMPENSATE for JC.

Since when did mediocrity become something we should strive for?

[SkinsfaninNJ]

Originally Posted by firehawk157

17 is a disgustly low number of TDs for a QB to throw. What you are saying is you want a franchise QB, a guy we intend on retaining for a decade more, to produce 17 TDs. That puts the onus on the RBs to get 20 TDs all by themselves to make us a decent offense. It'll be hard to get RBs to 20 TDs to COMPENSATE for JC.

Since when did mediocrity become something we should strive for?

A few things on this:
1. We are a run first team. You want more TD's thrown, change the philosophy.

2. Here are a list of QB's who are in the playoffs or fighting for the playoffs that have thrown 17 or less TD's this season:
Pennington, Delhomme, Collins, Ferotte, Rothlisberger, Garcia, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco and Orton. Among that group is the QB's for the potential AFC East winner, the NFC South winner (#2 seed) and the top two teams in the AFC.

3. When you don't turn the ball over, TD's thrown matter less.

4. The point is he keeps improving. If he has peeked I would agree with you. For this year, he has demonstrated improvement.

[firehawk157]

Originally Posted by SkinsfaninNJ

A few things on this:
1. We are a run first team. You want more TD's thrown, change the philosophy.

2. Here are a list of QB's who are in the playoffs or fighting for the playoffs that have thrown 17 or less TD's this season:
Pennington, Delhomme, Collins, Ferotte, Rothlisberger, Garcia, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco and Orton. Among that group is the QB's for the potential AFC East winner, the NFC South winner (#2 seed) and the top two teams in the AFC.

3. When you don't turn the ball over, TD's thrown matter less.

4. The point is he keeps improving. If he has peeked I would agree with you. For this year, he has demonstrated improvement.

1. I don't care if we are a run-first team. At some point, I want our franchise QB to have the ability to win a few games by himself.

2. Roethlisberger has missed time. Pennington, Collins, Frerotte and Garcia are all not talked about as franchise QBs. They are just game managers there to allow a dominant defense and/or running game to develop. Roethlesberger and Orton missed time (and on top of that, I'm not sold on Orton being a franchise QB). Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are rookies. The only point you have is Delhomme and I'm not convinced Delhomme is all that great, JC can aspire to much better than him.

3. Granted, but turnovers matter less when you throw more TDs.

4. Is it enough though? He's improved from below average to slightly above average. But can we wait for 5 years for him to become merely good?