Go Back   hailRedskins.com Fan Board > hailRedskins.com Fan Forums > the Cherokee Redskins Tribe

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

  #61  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:19 PM
skin4ever skin4ever is offline
2009/10 hR NFL Pick'em Champ
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,418
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shally View Post
peyton makes EVERYBODY around him look better, including the coaching staff.
he is a qb for the ages.

who does JC make look better ?
any dline we play against. JK.
Reply With Quote

  #62  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:24 PM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shally View Post
see what you want to see. believe what you want to believe.. you think that if the broncos put cutler on the market tomorrow the list of teams offering the moon wouldnt be overwhelming ?
how about JC ? what would he fetch ?

if you think that JC and cutler are equal, you are deluding yourself.. then again, if all you want from your qb is NOT to lose games for you, you probably have your man..
Instead of telling me I am deluding myself, tell me exactly why Cutler is a better QB? I like Cutler but if you look at their stats, they throw for the EXACT same completion percentage and Cutler has thrown over 100 more passes than Campbell. Campbell has a better TD to INT ratio (Slightly better than 2-1) but Cutler has thrown about twice as many TDs. Their QB ratings are within 2 percentage points of each other.

So again, please, tell me how Cutler is so much better of a QB, when he is an 8-8 QB just like Campbell and doesn't blow him out of the water statistically.

Do you agree that Cutler has better offensive weapons?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote

  #63  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:32 PM
shally's Avatar
shally shally is offline
Grumpy Old Man
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: new orleans, now the palm springs of washington
Posts: 59,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
Instead of telling me I am deluding myself, tell me exactly why Cutler is a better QB? I like Cutler but if you look at their stats, they throw for the EXACT same completion percentage and Cutler has thrown over 100 more passes than Campbell. Campbell has a better TD to INT ratio (Slightly better than 2-1) but Cutler has thrown about twice as many TDs. Their QB ratings are within 2 percentage points of each other.

So again, please, tell me how Cutler is so much better of a QB, when he is an 8-8 QB just like Campbell and doesn't blow him out of the water statistically.

Do you agree that Cutler has better offensive weapons?
yes, cutler has better weapons, better coaching and all the benefits that come from playing in a stable franchise, except at RB. the o line is probably a wash either way..
but he is also a better qb. he has the best arm in the nfl. he throws every pass better mechanically. he has a faster release. he is more mobile. he has better pocket presence. he is a real leader. he is just as tough as JC

you cannot watch the two play and come to any other conclusion, unless it is simply that you want your qb to not lose you games, because cutler will take chances

and dont trot out the stats like that because it is exactly what blache does
to justify his crappy defense. you and i dont buy that either.

again, find me any proof that on the market you could find a single personnel man who would take JC over cutler..
he has better touch. he uses all of his weapons, not just one receiver.
__________________
Reply With Quote

  #64  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:33 PM
WinnpegSkinsFan's Avatar
WinnpegSkinsFan WinnpegSkinsFan is offline
Healer
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 3,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shally View Post
peyton makes EVERYBODY around him look better, including the coaching staff.
he is a qb for the ages.

who does JC make look better ?
I have to admit i'm somwhat in the middle on this argument. Considering the suuport system JC currently has I would expect only Brady or PManning to have any success. JC has a decent run game but a poor OLine and sub-par WR play. I would give hime one more season with a better Oline and WRs (hopefully) and then come to a final judgement. I still point to 3+ years it took for other QBs to be successful in their systems (Eli, Hasselback).
It is a tricky game of patience, however. How much time to you give a QB to develop before his ultimate failure sets the franchise back years?
__________________
Sean Taylor - You'll always be missed but never forgotten.
Reply With Quote

  #65  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:38 PM
Farmer Ted's Avatar
Farmer Ted Farmer Ted is offline
Ghost Dancer
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,998
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shally View Post
peyton makes EVERYBODY around him look better, including the coaching staff.
he is a qb for the ages.
It would be so nice to have a QB who could walk up to the line of scrimmage on a 3d and long, look at the defense, and say to himself "Gee, these guys are going to blitz the hell out of me. I think I'll change the play to something that will work." When's the last time JC called an audible? Has it ever happened?

Quote:
who does JC make look better ?
Patrick Ramsey.
__________________
I never bagged a babe.
Reply With Quote

  #66  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:40 PM
shally's Avatar
shally shally is offline
Grumpy Old Man
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: new orleans, now the palm springs of washington
Posts: 59,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnpegSkinsFan View Post
I have to admit i'm somwhat in the middle on this argument. Considering the suuport system JC currently has I would expect only Brady or PManning to have any success. JC has a decent run game but a poor OLine and sub-par WR play. I would give hime one more season with a better Oline and WRs (hopefully) and then come to a final judgement. I still point to 3+ years it took for other QBs to be successful in their systems (Eli, Hasselback).
It is a tricky game of patience, however. How much time to you give a QB to develop before his ultimate failure sets the franchise back years?
i dont think we have much choice for next year, but JC looks about the same statistically this year as he did last year (except with fumbles)..

next year is IT for both zorn and JC. no way JC gets a new contract off of similar performance next year. zorn is lucky to be getting a second year.
it is based upon the hope that the first half of the season was a real measure of his ability, and not the second half

frankly, we are stuck with the hand we have right now
__________________
Reply With Quote

  #67  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:43 PM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shally View Post
yes, cutler has better weapons, better coaching and all the benefits that come from playing in a stable franchise, except at RB. the o line is probably a wash either way..
but he is also a better qb. he has the best arm in the nfl. he throws every pass better mechanically. he has a faster release. he is more mobile. he has better pocket presence. he is a real leader. he is just as tough as JC

you cannot watch the two play and come to any other conclusion, unless it is simply that you want your qb to not lose you games, because cutler will take chances

and dont trot out the stats like that because it is exactly what blache does
to justify his crappy defense. you and i dont buy that either.

again, find me any proof that on the market you could find a single personnel man who would take JC over cutler..
he has better touch. he uses all of his weapons, not just one receiver.

I am trotting out stats as indicators, not hard facts. Statistically they are very similar performers. And I wholeheartedly disagree with the O line being a wash. Our O line was built for an outdated power running game and the Denver O line has been built with the system they run in mind. Look at the difference in sack numbers. There is no way that disparity (38 for campbell to Culter's 11) can be explained away by one holding the ball longer than the other. That can account for some of it but a difference of 27 sacks? I don't think so.

And look at what you yourself wrote about Campbell earlier. Paraphrasing, you wrote that he looked all world when he had a functional Running game and a healthy O line, and the facts agree with that sentiment. So look no further than the failure in those two areas for his second half of the season regression. I have no reason to believe that swapping Cutler and Campbell would produce more or less than 8-8 seasons for each franchise.

And this whole "leadership" thing is preposterous. So Campbell isn't a leader because he is mild mannered and doesn't get in the face of the teammates failing him?

I'll give you that Cutler has better throwing mechanics, but I cannot give the leadership points (Since he led his team to 8-8 as well, and they choked bigtime) and frankly, I can't give you the decision making ability either. Cutler makes very poor decisions frequently and gets bailed out when he simply heaves the ball in the direction of Marshall. Very Daunte Culpepper/Randy Moss-ish.......
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.

Last edited by Keino : 12-29-2008 at 01:50 PM.
Reply With Quote

  #68  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:46 PM
shally's Avatar
shally shally is offline
Grumpy Old Man
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: new orleans, now the palm springs of washington
Posts: 59,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
I am trotting out facts as indicators, not hard facts. Statistically they are very similar performers. And I wholeheartedly disagree with the O line being a wash. Our O line was built for an outdated power running game and the Denver O line has been built with the system they run in mind. Look at the difference in sack numbers. There is no way that disparity (38 for campbell to Culter's 11) can be explained away by one holding the ball longer than the other. That can account for some of it but a difference of 27 sacks? I don't think so.

And look at what you yourself wrote about Campbell earlier. Paraphrasing, you wrote that he looked all world when he had a functional Running game and a healthy O line, and the facts agree with that sentiment. So look no further than the failure in those two areas for his second half of the season regression. I have no reason to believe that swapping Cutler and Campbell would produce more or less than 8-8 seasons for each franchise.

And this whole "leadership" thing is preposterous. So Campbell isn't a leader because he is mild mannered and doesn't get in the face of the teammates failing him?

I'll give you that Cutler has better throwing mechanics, but I cannot give the leadership points (Since he led his team to 8-8 as well, and they choked bigtime) and frankly, I can't give you the decision making ability either. Cutler makes very poor decisions frequently and gets bailed out when he simply heaves the ball in the direction of Marshall. Very Daunte Culpepper/Randy Moss-ish.......
then i expect you are very disappointed they didnt offer JC a long term contract extension this year.
are you on board for that ?
__________________
Reply With Quote

  #69  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:48 PM
AliBabba's Avatar
AliBabba AliBabba is offline
Sachem
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NW DC
Posts: 2,874
Default

All this talk of JC not progressing is ludicrous. He's obviously much better than he was last year in every statistical and intangible category save for team wins. He needs the stability of playing in the same offense for another year with a coach that has imo done him much more good than harm. I agree that some of Zorn's tutelage includes mix messages but he is a rookie coach himself and will improve.

JCs not the problem. Before we should consider replacing one of the few contributors who's not old and overpaid we should improve in the trenches and in depth. It's going to be tough with our current set of draft selections but I hope that JC was right when he said there'd be some "shocking" personnel changes this offseason.

While I wouldn't be shocked by any of these I would like to see the following players traded for whatever we can get:

- Andre Carter
- Santana Moss
- Shawn Springs
- Randy Thomas

Even if all that netted us was a 3rd and a few 6 or 7ths I'd be very happy
__________________
Fire Vinny!

This is nothing more than a hunch but I think Malcolm Kelly will be a star in this league. (post 2008 draft prediction)
Reply With Quote

  #70  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:49 PM
Keino's Avatar
Keino Keino is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shally View Post
then i expect you are very disappointed they didnt offer JC a long term contract extension this year.
are you on board for that ?
No. I don't think he has earned a big extension and with the very real chance that 09 goes uncapped with no UFA's, it would be fiscally irresponsible to offer any potential f/a from that draft class an extension if they cannot go elsewhere without us getting some compensation in return.

I just don't view Campbell as being the problem. He does what he is asked to do and gets little to no help from his playmakers, his coaches, his line or his defense when it counts...

I am also perfectly ok with bringing in a vet who has run the WCO to compete for the job. But I don't think Campbell is the problem.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
Reply With Quote

  #71  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:54 PM
AliBabba's Avatar
AliBabba AliBabba is offline
Sachem
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NW DC
Posts: 2,874
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keino View Post
No. I don't think he has earned a big extension and with the very real chance that 09 goes uncapped with no UFA's, it would be fiscally irresponsible to offer any potential f/a from that draft class an extension if they cannot go elsewhere without us getting some compensation in return.

I just don't view Campbell as being the problem. He does what he is asked to do and gets little to no help from his playmakers, his coaches, his line or his defense when it counts...

I am also perfectly ok with bringing in a vet who has run the WCO to compete for the job. But I don't think Campbell is the problem.
I agree extending JCs contract right now makes no sense. I'm not sold he's the franchise QB we need but I don't view him as a problem either. Bringing in competition isn't a bad idea either.
__________________
Fire Vinny!

This is nothing more than a hunch but I think Malcolm Kelly will be a star in this league. (post 2008 draft prediction)
Reply With Quote

  #72  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:54 PM
Lavar703's Avatar
Lavar703 Lavar703 is offline
Spirit
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,212
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skin4ever View Post
Thats what happens when you have to start your 7th RB due to injuries. But i like his aggressiveness. You never know whats going to happen unless you take those shots and see the outcome. I dont think Campbell should just throw the ball all over the field without regard to the consequences, but he needs to be more accurate and throw the ball in some tight places. If he did that, i think his confidence to make those throws would do greatly toward his confidence. But since he wont, we will continue to watch a marginal QB performance.

I just think Campbell is not suited for the style of offense that is being run, and if thats the case, it may make a helluva lot more sense to bring someone in who is(or may be) effective under this offense than change the scheme to such a degree that it no longer is the offense being run(if that makes sense).
So its okay that Cutler was down to his last RB but Campbell should overcome the fact that his OL is falling apart around him and his WRs refuse to make plays or just catch the ball. The sad part about this is if Campbell takes the shots downfield and it gets picked off then we chastise him for a bad throw but if he goes with the safe route and hits Santana Moss dead in the hands and Moss drops it, its Campbells fault for throwing to hard.
__________________
I will miss you forever, RIP Sean Taylor

Hi! My name is Salvatore
Reply With Quote

  #73  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:57 PM
Ibleedburgundy's Avatar
Ibleedburgundy Ibleedburgundy is offline
Chief
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AliBabba View Post
While I wouldn't be shocked by any of these I would like to see the following players traded for whatever we can get:

- Andre Carter
- Santana Moss
- Shawn Springs
- Randy Thomas

Even if all that netted us was a 3rd and a few 6 or 7ths I'd be very happy
Totally agree minus Santana Moss. Even though Moss dropped some balls he is still an asset, and he is the only asset at WR right now. After him there is a huge drop off. He might not be a great #1 but he would certainly be a solid #2. Lose him and we're a team of Thrashes unless one of the rooks steps up. Agree with trading Springles because Hall (if we retain him) and Rogers are a nice pair of starting cbs. Thomas can hopefully be replaced by Rhinehart. Carter can be replaced by scrubs with no drop off although I'm not sure we get any value for him at this point.
Reply With Quote

  #74  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:57 PM
Lavar703's Avatar
Lavar703 Lavar703 is offline
Spirit
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,212
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shally View Post
how about saying that cutler is just a far better quarterback ? enough of the excuses. cutler was successful at Vandy, for goodness sakes..
I wouldnt say he was succesful because Vandy still sucked when he played there. He just shined on a really bad football team.
__________________
I will miss you forever, RIP Sean Taylor

Hi! My name is Salvatore
Reply With Quote

  #75  
Old 12-29-2008, 02:01 PM
smave's Avatar
smave smave is offline
Healer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 3,179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shally View Post
how about saying that cutler is just a far better quarterback ? enough of the excuses. cutler was successful at Vandy, for goodness sakes..
trust me id take Cutler over him any day. I was just simply amazed at how the kid throws watching him last night.

I have to agree, but im just throwing it out there. He also has a HOF coach on top of him
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:58 AM.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
| Home | Register | FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search | New Posts |