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View Poll Results: Where do you stand on abortion?
I am Pro Choice (Woman's right to choose) 14 50.00%
I am Pro Life (It is murder!) 12 42.86%
No opinion 2 7.14%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old 10-02-2003, 10:39 PM
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I am Pro-Life for obvious reasons.


AGG - Thank you for pointing out Jsarno's obvious lack of scriptural knowledge... saving me the time to type it.


Jsarno - I have listened to you make several points under the label of "Christian" which are not in agreement with "Christianity" at all. Please review your facts before sticking on the label my friend...
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  #17  
Old 10-02-2003, 10:52 PM
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I have no particular opinion about JSARNO's beliefs, but I know plenty of religious Christians [including clerics] who are pro-choice. I'm one of them. But only one.
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  #18  
Old 10-02-2003, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spence
I have no particular opinion about JSARNO's beliefs, but I know plenty of religious Christians [including clerics] who are pro-choice. I'm one of them. But only one.

Unfortunately... I know some as well.
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  #19  
Old 10-02-2003, 11:10 PM
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That's not a decision you can make for someone because of your own religious beliefs. If I'm a 16 year old girl who made a human mistake and got pregnant, I'm not really gonna care about your religious beliefs when I make a life altering decision. I was the only one this girl told and I convinced her to get an abortion very early. I don't know what it says in the bible and to tell you the truth I don't really care cause this girl saved her life. Not everyone has to make a law out of every little word the bible says. If this girl would have had the baby, the bible wouldn't have done much to help her unless she could have sold it for a large amount of money.
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  #20  
Old 10-03-2003, 03:23 AM
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Pro choice!
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  #21  
Old 10-03-2003, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spence
I have no particular opinion about JSARNO's beliefs, but I know plenty of religious Christians [including clerics] who are pro-choice. I'm one of them. But only one.
WOW! I thought you were an Attorney and now to find out you are a Cleric!
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  #22  
Old 10-03-2003, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigCountry
That's not a decision you can make for someone because of your own religious beliefs. If I'm a 16 year old girl who made a human mistake and got pregnant, I'm not really gonna care about your religious beliefs when I make a life altering decision. I was the only one this girl told and I convinced her to get an abortion very early. I don't know what it says in the bible and to tell you the truth I don't really care cause this girl saved her life. Not everyone has to make a law out of every little word the bible says. If this girl would have had the baby, the bible wouldn't have done much to help her unless she could have sold it for a large amount of money.

For those of us who profess, and take the Bible as the Word of God, we must answer as we believe to be God's truth in this matter.

I think that there are different levels of Christian faith. Many profess they believe in God or Jesus, yet do not read his word or believe it to be relevant in this day and age. But for those of us who do, we must be entitled to our opinions.

PS: Birth Control starts before conception! and abstinence is still a choice.
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  #23  
Old 10-03-2003, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
Every woman I have ever known who has had an abortion, did so as a form of birth control....I'm Pro-Life
I COMPLETELY disagree with that form, unless it is life threatening.

Quote:
jsarno, from one Christian to another...I think you had better get in the Word my friend. Read Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139:13.
Since you brought them up (common arguments from us Christians against abortion) I will breakthem down.
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
First he says BEFORE I created you in the womb...meaning he was a being before he was even conceived which could constitute masterbation as murder. This only can have a conclusion that there is an afterlife since he can know someone "prelife". He goes on to say before you were born, I set you apart (consecrated) from others. It says NOTHING specific about abortion, nor does it say anything about the fetus being alive, just that he was known before the birth and beforethe conception. If we were to take that literally, it's a crazy statement. He's naming A FETUS prophet to the nations? It's just making a point that he knew him from before day one, and knows all about him. Not anything about abortion.
Psalms 139:13,
For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb.
And you forgot verse 16 that is common arguement as well:
Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Anyway...those verses in that chapter are basically a prayer to God. This person is saying that God knew him in the womb, and knew his destiny. It's not saying anything devine, nor is it saying anything about a baby being alive. Just that the God knew it. It has DNA so of course it will become someone eventually. I used to actually feel the same way you did, it was killing and that is that. But after I researched it thoroughly in the bible, there is nothing concrete at all, nothing even close really other than amazingly indirect comments that could be considered.

Quote:
Also when your wife is in her last tri-mester, come talk to us again about your "parasite", I'd be curious to see if your thoughts have changed.
Please don't misunderstand me. First off, last trimester is illegal for abortion even in today's society, and that is murder. Because with a little help, that baby can live on it's own outside the womb. I already feel an amazing connection and would not in anyway shape or form even remotely think about terminating the pregnancy. If my wife did by herself, (she wouldn't, but hypotheticaly) I'd divorce her.
Definition of a parasite is something that lives off the life of another and can't live with out that life. By that crude definition, a FETUS does fall under that catagory. Do I think a fetus is a parasite? NO. I already explained this.

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PS: A year ago...
A handsome, sweet, stranger walked into my life...
He was my full-blooded baby brother that my Mother gave up for adoption 35 years earlier. He is a joy to my brother, sister and I even if he does like the Ravens ~grin~

Also, my darling Hubbo...adopted at birth

I thank God every day that these two women did not have abortions
As you should. But what you don't know won't hurt you. There have been literally millions of abortions in this world, what if NONE of them actually happened? Who knows if someone actually aborted the next Hitler? No one knows. I know some serious assholes that were adopted, as I know some VERY nice people that were adopted. If you only point out the positive, youdont see the whole picture.
Let me be clear when I say I don't agree with abortion because it's the easy way out for some that made ignorant choices. But I don't agree it should be 100% illegal for circumstances I already explained.
I just don't beleive it is alive until it's born. Therefore not killing. No bible verse will prove this. I've already looked,this is why my mind was changed.
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  #24  
Old 10-03-2003, 11:14 AM
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sometimes you just have to remember that bad is just as much in this world, even more so than good.

Interesting hypothetical headlines:
John Smith of (your local town) killed a family today. Lorri and her husband of many years were killed and the poor children are now left to fend for themselves. John SMith had too much to drink at the local bar after an argument with his girlfriend. No one stopped him from driving drunk, and he SLAMMED into Lorri's car on main street killing them instantly.

This never happened because John Smith was aborted in the womb.
Don't forget that it goes both ways. If God is in charge, who's to say he didn't encourage the abortion? He knows ALL right? And he knows better than US right? So who are we to question it? Those aborted fetus could have been some serious scum. Only God knows. But if you're going to point out the positive from not aborting...the negative needs to be heard.
I think we would all agree that Osama Bin Laden's mother should have aborted.
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  #25  
Old 10-03-2003, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
The problem is jsarno...these cases are very rare. Here's the majority reason for abortion.


"Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.)"

Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%
That's not the point Lorri. The point is, if you make it illegal, those teenagers raped CAN'T get an abortion. You just took that decision out of thier hand.
Or how about the mother that the baby is threatening her life? Should she not get a choice? That DOES happen often since I have known 4 women in the past 7 years that was the case for. 1 of them actually didn't consider abortion and died and left 3 kids motherless.
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  #26  
Old 10-03-2003, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skinzaholic
Jsarno - I have listened to you make several points under the label of "Christian" which are not in agreement with "Christianity" at all. Please review your facts before sticking on the label my friend...
Problem is, I have...while others have not on this issue. I wrestled with this for a long time at one point and came to this conclusion, and no one has come up with proof not to. Just a human feeling.
Tell you what...you show me biblically where it is wrong, and I will change my mind. I am human, maybe I missed something that you have seen. This is not like homosexuality where it is 100% clear in the bible. This is about as gray an issue as they come in biblical terms.
I'm by no means an expert true and true on the bible, but I know it better than 95% of the world sicne I have been studying it on my own since 91, and having it read to me or read it in church since I was born.
There are many common christian beliefs that are not biblical. This is a good one to say "It's wrong" on because it's better safe than sorry by christian thoughts.
Here is definition of alive:
a·live ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lv)
adj.
Having life; living. See Synonyms at living.
In existence or operation; active: keep your hopes alive.
Full of living or moving things; abounding: a pool alive with trout.
Full of activity or animation; lively: a face alive with mischief.

A fetus does not fall into this.
Personally for me, abortion is wrong. But I'm not going to tell someone else it is wrong, nor should the government. If you think by biblical interpretations are incorrect, then prove me wrong biblically. That is my guidebook for life.
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  #27  
Old 10-03-2003, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AGibbsGirl


PS: Birth Control starts before conception! and abstinence is still a choice.
AMEN!
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  #28  
Old 10-03-2003, 11:37 AM
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Last response...sorry, I've had a lot to say on this issue.

Don't you think if God really thought abortion was killing he would have came out and said so? He never once insunuates that a fetus is a living thing, so why have we (as christians) decided to put it in there for him?
God knew what he was doing when he made the bible. As much as we want to see things that aren't there for GOOD (and believe me, I know you guys are saying this for GOOD reasoning) it is not clear at all. In fact if anything it is completely silent on this subject. Leaving us to decide if it's right or wrong by human standards such as definition of alive etc. By those conclusions it is not illegal. In this case the verse "follow the laws of the land" apply more than anything. The laws aren't always correct, and the bible will tell us which ones aren't. But this is not one of them.
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  #29  
Old 10-03-2003, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jsarno
Last response...sorry, I've had a lot to say on this issue.

Don't you think if God really thought abortion was killing he would have came out and said so.
Somehow I doubt they had abortion back then my friend. So God had no reason to put anything in the bible about this. It woulda confused the hell outta them. Now answer me this.

Hypothtical News Story
John Doe was arrested today and charged with 2 counts of first degree muder. John doe killed his wife Jane today who was 6 months pregenant with their child. John is being charged with the murder of his wife and unborn child.

Now why is that murder, but Abortion not?
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  #30  
Old 10-03-2003, 12:20 PM
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Because abortion is under the consent of the woman and it is done because she is not ready to have a baby. Are you gonna condem a 17 year old girl that made a mistake because YOU think it's religiously imoral? Please tell me you think there's a differance between a guy murdering a pregnant woman and abortion because that notion is rediculous.
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