Abortion

[jporterweb]

Originally posted by BigCountry
Because abortion is under the consent of the woman and it is done because she is not ready to have a baby. Are you gonna condem a 17 year old girl that made a mistake because YOU think it's religiously imoral? Please tell me you think there's a differance between a guy murdering a pregnant woman and abortion because that notion is rediculous.

No it's not. If the child can be considered murdered by the man murdering the woman, then the doctor performing the abortion is a murderer. He is killing this child. Don't tell me that notion is ridiculous, because it is still ending a life. I don't hide behind religion and say it's immoral, but it's not right under standard law. Killing a living being is murder. I'm sorry but if I'm in a bed on life support, and my heart is still beating even though I'm not breathing on my own. And someone comes in and pulls the plug puposly, that's murder. The same goes for a baby who has a heartbeat even though the baby is not breathing or anything on its own. It has nothing to do with religion, and I never EVER said it did. So please don't put words in my mouth. I was just explaining to JSARNO why such wouldn't have been in the bible. Clearly seperated the two issues.

One more thing. If the woman is not ready for whatever reason, fine. However, there are OTHER OPTIONS.

[Spence]

Originally posted by jporterweb
Somehow I doubt they had abortion back then my friend. So God had no reason to put anything in the bible about this. It woulda confused the hell outta them.

Just pointing out that abortion did exist in Biblical times and would have been well-known to almost anyone. The surgical procedure as we now know it, did not exist, but the ancients were well aware of various means of artificially terminating a pregnancy.

I'm not suggesting that the Bible's silence on this issue settles anything one way or another. I'm merely writing that abortion was common knowledge among peoples long before Jesus was born.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by jsarno
Since you brought them up (common arguments from us Christians against abortion) I will breakthem down.
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
First he says BEFORE I created you in the womb...meaning he was a being before he was even conceived which could constitute masterbation as murder. This only can have a conclusion that there is an afterlife since he can know someone "prelife". He goes on to say before you were born, I set you apart (consecrated) from others. It says NOTHING specific about abortion, nor does it say anything about the fetus being alive, just that he was known before the birth and beforethe conception. If we were to take that literally, it's a crazy statement. He's naming A FETUS prophet to the nations? It's just making a point that he knew him from before day one, and knows all about him. Not anything about abortion.
Psalms 139:13,
For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb.
And you forgot verse 16 that is common arguement as well:
Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Anyway...those verses in that chapter are basically a prayer to God. This person is saying that God knew him in the womb, and knew his destiny. It's not saying anything devine, nor is it saying anything about a baby being alive. Just that the God knew it. It has DNA so of course it will become someone eventually. I used to actually feel the same way you did, it was killing and that is that. But after I researched it thoroughly in the bible, there is nothing concrete at all, nothing even close really other than amazingly indirect comments that could be considered.

JSARNO - Your personal interpretation of the Bible text is extremely short-sighted and disturbing.

Let's really break down this verse you mentioned above...

Jeremiah 1:5

"Before" - [i]Heb. "terem" - to interrupt, suspend, something not yet occurring[/u]

"I formed" - Heb. "yatsar" - molded as a potter with clay

"in the belly I knew thee" - Heb. "yada" - to be aware, to recognize"

"and before thou came forth" - Heb. "yatsa" - to break out

(verse continued) "out of the womb I sanctified (set apart, appointed) thee and ordained (gave) thee a prophet unto the nations".


************

First - Your misinterpretation of this verse in regards to masturbation is crazy. Scientists have long ago discovered that human life requires male/female consecration. Therefore, your masturbation defense is a feeble attempt at warping the text to fit your personal point of view.

Second - You are missing the entire point of this verse... which is actually God providing encouragement to Jeremiah due to his need for strength prior to the difficulties he would soon face due to the unpopularity of his message. (John Wesley's Notes on Old New Testament).

The point of this verse was NOT to dictate whether or not destroying a fetus was murder... but rather to state that the fetus was considered "alive" by God and that God recognized and was aware o that life prior to actual birth (even aware enough to set that life apart for future deeds).


Several other verses support this statement in full...

- Psalm 71:5-6 - (a verbal picture of God "holding up" an infant yet without legs to stand until it is able to stand alone).

- Psalm 22:9-10

- Isaiah 49:1,5

Gal 1:15-16 - (Paul's parallel statement that he (like Jeremiah) also had this calling... )



Several Bible Commentaries also support this position...

1. "This scripture uses this manner of speech to declare that God has appointed his ministers to their offices before they were born" - 1599 Geneva Bible Notes

2. "Obviously, 'Before I formed thee' imlies that God had destined Jeremiah to be a prophet before he was born. He had formed a plan and appointed thee to be His envoy to His people." - Adam Clarke's Commentary


************

It is easily understood by the above references that God considers a fetus in the womb as life. But... here is another point...

The main concern of the "Pro-Choicers" is not the guarded protection of the life in the womb. Instead, the main concern is the "rights" of the mother over and against the rights of the child growing in her. The child, who cannot exercise its own will, is killed. And, in order to make the killing more palatable, the baby is called a "fetus", or "non-viable", or "not yet human", etc. This eases the conscience. But, for those who say the baby isn't 'viable', have you ever seen a sonogram of an abortion? You can see the 'non-viable fetus' retracting from the instruments of death and seeking self preservation. It wants to live. Some would respond by saying that even a rodent wants to live. But what is in the womb of the mother is human.


(This goes in line with your definition of life.)


***************

Now... does God indeed call killing a fetus "murder"? Yes.

Exodus 21:22 - "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, s that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.


With no harm to the mother, one would assume that the man would not be held responsible...yet God sees it as different and upholds the rights of the unborn child as well.


*************

You can also check out a very logical, rational, non religious argumen against abortion here.... http://www.carm.org/questions/abortion.htm



**************

My argument with you was NOT addressing the ageless issue of fetus rights... but rather to point out your lack of knowledge and dogmatic opinion without facts or correct information. As in all debates... proper research is imperative (as stated by Spence).

Big Country has an opinion which varies 180 degrees from mine... and yet I respect his position because he states it with clarity and thought. Although I disagree with his analysis of human life and total disregard for Biblical authority (thus God's authority), I have an even greater problem with people who have extremely limited Biblical knowledge grabbing half-truths and using them to further distort the general misunderstanding of God's heart. This is a soap box of mine.

I mean no disrepsect to you... nor want you to feel attacked or insulted... instead I would hope that you would search God's Word with an open heart and not approach it with your opinion already set... then try to bend the verses to fit that opinion. (That is called iseggesis).

[Skinzaholic]

Abortion Facts

11 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION

HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS)
BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS
THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST
THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK
THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE
THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB
ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING
THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND

[Green-Is-Good]

If the mother's life is at risk, I am for it.

[bfauble83]

Who is to say that the mother's (who has already lived a portion of her life) life is more important than the baby?

Skinz...I applaud your effort, but you are indeed missing the point. God knows ALL. He knew the SOUL BEFORE conception, just as he knows the soul AFTER death. That does not in ANY way suggest a fetus is alive. If we can die, and he still know us, OF COURSE before conception he can know us.

I too have a problem with people that THINK they know the bible. But I understand not all see it clearly. Some use thier own thoughts / traditions to let it sway them, as you are here. Some just take bits and pieces (verses) and bend them to make it sound the way want. Not looking at the verses that led to the verse in question. I do not feel you are doing this in spite, or anger, or evil intentions. It is a lack of study on this issue. As I have said, I have studied this SEVERELY with numerous others, and it CHANGED MY MIND. I used to see it just as you do. Maybe you should be the one that sees this with an open mind. Go in with NO OPINION on abortion and try again.

OK, about Exodus. Did you happen to read the previous verses? "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.
Interesting how this clearly condones MURDER of a HUMAN the very verse before the one you quoted. Please note that.
Your verse quoted is speaking in regards to the father's feelings, and even suggests that the child is of value. That much is obvious sicne it is in the middle of a bunch of verses about teh abuse and punishment of SLAVES. Keep in mind that in verse 7, they speak of SELLING HIS OWN DAUGHTER. So please don't tell me this is about murder as much as it is possession and money. I know you disagree with me. But I have extensive knowledge on this issue, and the bible in general. The fact that you discount my knowledge as nearsighted sicne it doesn't mesh with your "opinions" does not mean I am not correct in my assessment. Don't you find it even somewhat interesting that I show BIBLICAL VERSES to combat your views? Every verse you show me, I can show you the intent of which it was said, and show you that you are indeed misinterpreting the comment. This is not to make a fool of you, or anger you, you know I have always RESPECTED YOU AND YOUR VIEWS. I have spent about a decade on this issue, and I have found nothing to support your argument.
I feel I must say this again. I DO NOT CONDONE ABORTION. I WOULD NEVER PARTAKE OF SUCH A PRACTICE. I just don't think it is a murder and I don't think it should be taken out of the parties involved, hands.

If you can honestly pull me out a RELEVANT verse about the killing of unborns, then I will surely listen. It is possible I missed something in the years I studied this, so I am open to listening to it.

Originally posted by bfauble83
Who is to say that the mother's (who has already lived a portion of her life) life is more important than the baby?

The mother for one.
The father for two.
All the people that KNOW the mother / father for three.

She is the only one that is actually alive in a baby scenario.

Originally posted by Spence
Just pointing out that abortion did exist in Biblical times and would have been well-known to almost anyone. The surgical procedure as we now know it, did not exist, but the ancients were well aware of various means of artificially terminating a pregnancy.

I'm not suggesting that the Bible's silence on this issue settles anything one way or another. I'm merely writing that abortion was common knowledge among peoples long before Jesus was born.

Jporterweb, Spence already illuded to this. Abortion has been a common practice for thousands of years.
Thanks Spence.

Bigcountry, for the first time, I feel that we agree. A murder of mother and unborn is in no way similar to an abortion.

Skinz...you say there are other options. What is the option for the mother that this pregnancy will surely kill? (please keep in mind that whle we do have great technology, many mothers in the past and still today die while giving birth) Or the option to the 13 year old that was raped? If not for these and other worse case scenarios, then I would say no to abortion. I fully disagree with it as purely a birth control method. But there are circumstances that REQUIRE it to be legal.
Just ask yourself this, if you or I were truely "alive" as a fetus, wouldnt we be 9 months older than we are today?

[Skinzaholic]

JSARNO - Your entire argument is based on one simple statement... that you do not believe a fetus is "alive". (This is despite the fact that evidence has already been shown which disputes your argument based on YOUR definition itself.... see earlier post... "Abortion Facts".

In the end I suppose I will be forced to concede to your imense knowledge on the subject... afterall, you ave studied SEVERLY. You discredit all of the information and verses that I present to you by inserting your own personal revelation with no documented proof.... so you win.

Guess I'm glad our parents agreed with me.... otherwise we wouldn't be here to debate... huh?

Originally posted by Skinzaholic
JSARNO - Your entire argument is based on one simple statement... that you do not believe a fetus is "alive". (This is despite the fact that evidence has already been shown which disputes your argument based on YOUR definition itself.... see earlier post... "Abortion Facts".

In the end I suppose I will be forced to concede to your imense knowledge on the subject... afterall, you ave studied SEVERLY. You discredit all of the information and verses that I present to you by inserting your own personal revelation with no documented proof.... so you win.

Guess I'm glad our parents agreed with me.... otherwise we wouldn't be here to debate... huh?

We just clearly disagree. No need for the sarcasm that you hand out so freely. I'm not upset, nor am I trying to change your mind. It doesn't really matter to me what you think on this subject.

about your "abortion facts", they are incomplete. Take that baby outside of the womb, and see if it's "alive". It will only be alive after the 3rd trimester which I have already said is killing. You are just stating how it forms, this does not make it alive...the MOTHER forms it. The keys are teh brain waves and heart beat, both will CEASE if taken away from the life giving mother.
Also, if you're going to use arguments about "before you were in the womb I knew you", expect to hear comments about masterbation being murder. Do I think it's murder? OF COURSE NOT. But if you're going to use that off base argument, expect off base comments.
You say I have no documented proof. 1- I do, since I will be 29 years of age on Jan. 15th, otherwise I'd already be 29. So my drivers license, SS info etc are all documented proof.
2- the bible DOES NOT get specific on this subject, not even indirectly specific either for that matter. But EVERY verse you used was rebutted with extreme accuracy. The fact the bible deos not get specific on this matter is all the proof I need. But mother nature provides the rest of the proof.
It's funny that you are guilty of exactly what you're trying to show me as proof. No documented proof.
It's VERY clear you will not look at this discussion with an open mind without previous reservations like I have. You can not be 100% impartial on this. That's your choice. I have no problem with your view. Those people that get abortions will have to answer to God, not you or me. (since neither of us would ever do such a thing). So maybe you should calm down and understand what you're truely complaining about. No one is forcing an opinion on you. Just not agreeing with you. This does happen occasionally you know.

[Green-Is-Good]

Bfauble83, if you were a woman, would you give up your life for some punk kid who has not even been born yet?

[AGibbsGirl]

Interesting hypothetical headlines:
John Smith of (your local town) killed a family today. Lorri and her husband of many years were killed and the poor children are now left to fend for themselves. John SMith had too much to drink at the local bar after an argument with his girlfriend. No one stopped him from driving drunk, and he SLAMMED into Lorri's car on main street killing them instantly.

This creeps me out jsarno!!!!, Please don't use my given name if you're going to say something like this. I don't appreciate it, it's too personal. I don't know your name and I wouldn't use it under these circumstances even if I did!


As far as all of the stuff you've been saying about the abortion issue, God and the Bible...I've come to realize you must not be a Born Again Christian; if you were, you would see past all of the literal interpretations of the Bible and see to the heart of God.
And That's all I have to say here...I won't be revisiting this thread after this.

Originally posted by AGibbsGirl
This creeps me out jsarno!!!!, Please don't use my given name if you're going to say something like this. I don't appreciate it, it's too personal. I don't know your name and I wouldn't use it under these circumstances even if I did!

I am terribly, terribly sorry I offended you. I assure you that was not my intent. You were makign the argument that someone didn't get an abortion and therefore a person is alive and doing good. I was merely making a "what if" scenario since you weren't looking at the other side of the story. Again...I am VERY sorry. Please forgive me.

As far as all of the stuff you've been saying about the abortion issue, God and the Bible...I've come to realize you must not be a Born Again Christian; if you were, you would see past all of the literal interpretations of the Bible and see to the heart of God.
And That's all I have to say here...I won't be revisiting this thread after this.

I was originally born a Catholic until my mother started taking me to the church of christ. It was years and years later I realized that church of christ people follow their own agenda as well as the bible. And I don't go for that. I fllow the bible, and do not follow human traditions of what someone else thinks the bible says. All anyone has to do is read before and after a given quoted verse to get a feel for what is trying to be said. I'm sure if you read those chapters to which you quoted you'd get what was trying to be said as well.
I'm not saying you or skinz are wrong. It's not a bad idea to have your view. I just don't see it your way, and no one has shown me that to be biblical. (specific case) I find it particularly disturbing that since a fellow christian doesn't see it your way, you discredit him. That is not a good practice.
ps- NO ONE, NO ONE knows what is in the heart of God. I can't believe you actually said that. All we can do is strive to do the best we can with what we have. Strive to be like Jesus. If we even had a slight clue to what was in God's heart we'd all be better people. I only WISH I knew.

[Skinzaholic]

Originally posted by jsarno
ps- NO ONE, NO ONE knows what is in the heart of God. I can't believe you actually said that. All we can do is strive to do the best we can with what we have. Strive to be like Jesus. If we even had a slight clue to what was in God's heart we'd all be better people. I only WISH I knew.

JSARNO - I want to address this once... then leave this alone since it only breeds offense and misunderstanding. I do not think it is totally truthful for you to take the stance you have taken in this thread. I never came across as attacking you... nor did AGG... we simply attacked what you were speaking from the Word of God. The reason we disagreed with you has already been clearly put in several different ways. No need to repeat it here.

You spoke as one who has AMPLE years of study under your belt, and yet you are clearly missing very basic understandings of scripture. Your attitude reeks of the "I'm right and you little people are wrong" theme... and that is why I addressed it in the first place.

I have no reason to attack you, nor make you look stupid. BUT, you were doing a fine job of that yourself... and using the Bible to help you. This makes everyone who believes the Bibe look stupid as well... can't sit back and let that happen.

Your above quote goes even futher to reveal your frame of mind. That you (or anyone) CANNOT know the heart of God is a position one would take from an outside point of view... not one who has "years of study". Instead, it shows one who has been mislead by the trappings of your own thoughts. Not meant as a slam, simply an observation. The Bible IS the heart of God... you know it, you know His heart. (That is why MOST Christians get mixed up in what they believe).

This is not something that you have only done in THIS thread... but it seems in almost every conversation you have with others you adopt this arrogant "I know everything" attitude which rubs people the wrong way. It looks worse due to the subject this time.. but I don't think the subject is relevant in this case.

I think I can speak for AGG by saying that you were not attacked... but you did the attacking in a subtle "tongue in cheek" way (as you have other times).

This case is closed for me as well... I hope you can grow in this area my friend.

No need to respond here.