Westboro to picket miners

[justinskins]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

LBJ only got Civil/equal rights passed because of the outrage of the Mississippi Burning murders in 1964 and the March on Selma in 1965. And you're putting words in my mouth that the Federal government sat on its hands. The Supreme Court was chipping away at Jim Crow for decades before 1965(almost 50 years). The Federal government would investigate and try to enforce the SCOTUS decisions(and executive orders), but the Southern States would stall, delay and flat out ignore the rulings(it took 10 years before Brown v Board of Education did anything). If you want to get outraged, direct it at the Southern States.

I have plenty of outrage toward the Southern states. But I also think the other states in the union deserve their share of the blame. The South had long ceased to have majorities in Congress that could have blocked civil rights legislation. Much of the reason the rest of the union didn't act is that non-Southern whites had come to accept white supremacism. The South was not the only part of the country with segregation or "race riots" (a term which, before the 1960s, referred not to black riots in the inner city, but pogroms committed by whites against blacks).

Also, I'm not impressed by the Feds' "chipping away" at Jim Crow. Some things are so evil that the only moral response is righteous fury. I'd be saying the same thing if the US had refused to get involved in the European theater of World War II; and plenty of people say it about the failures of international institutions to do anything about the Rwanda genocide. The difference is that slavery and Jim Crow happened in our own country, not somewhere overseas, and not enough people here were willing to fight it. Those who did fight were derided as radicals or race traitors, and safely ignored by respectable society.

I also find unreasonable to run a nation by paying off any people who get outraged at the treatment of their ancestors, especially when the entity they're suing/demanding payment from is the one fighting on their side. Responsibility rests with those who are fighting to keep the crime going, not with those who are fighting to end it.

Once again, reparations are only one way to right the wrong, and what has been done to right it has had limited success. Plus, I don't expect Southern states to do anything about race relations any time soon. Their governments find it difficult to enough to admit that the Confederacy was an institution devoted to evil, and they will never voluntarily offer anything to their victims. Somehow, all the whites who were responsible for perpetuating Jim Crow mysteriously disappeared after the 1960s. I'm sure Dave will tell you that no one alive is really responsible for any of that, even though there are plenty of Southern whites in their 60s and 70s who were adults during Jim Crow. I guess they were all marching with Martin Luther King?

[RedskinsDave]

I will tell you that if you don't stop attributing comments to me that I haven't remotely alluded to that you will find your posts disappearing.

[justinskins]

Originally Posted by RedskinsDave

I will tell you that if you don't stop attributing comments to me that I haven't remotely alluded to that you will find your posts disappearing.

You mean like when you wrote that I had everything handed to me in life? Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black, my friend.

[RedskinsDave]

Originally Posted by justinskins

You mean like when you wrote that I had everything handed to me in life? Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black, my friend.

That's a fact. I haven't said a thing about the items you keep tossing out. The only black will be your posts.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by justinskins

I have plenty of outrage toward the Southern states. But I also think the other states in the union deserve their share of the blame.

Based on some world view of yours that apparently demands that anyone who's fighting to solve a problem is somehow guilty also.

Originally Posted by justinskins

The South had long ceased to have majorities in Congress that could have blocked civil rights legislation.

Thats wrong. They had more than enough votes to filibuster everything. Strom Thurmond won re-election for 126 years by doing two things:
-Pork for South Carolina
-Blocking Desegregation at every possible turn.

And he was a master at both. Did you forget about Strom's 24 hour long personal filibuster in 57 about Ike's watered down Civil rights bill?

Originally Posted by justinskins

Much of the reason the rest of the union didn't act is that non-Southern whites had come to accept white supremacism. The South was not the only part of the country with segregation or "race riots" (a term which, before the 1960s, referred not to black riots in the inner city, but pogroms committed by whites against blacks).

This is also basically false also. Non-Southern whites didn't support Jim Crow at any large levels, but there's not much that could be done. The Southern Bloc controlled the House and there were enough votes in the Senate to block everything(which is why JFK and LBJ used the DOJ to try and gut the Klan to do something). The only way was through the Court systems, but it was a question of standing in the federal court system. You can't march into a Rhode Island courthouse and demand that they stop the Alabama county commissions from refusing to register black voters. But I'm sure that's the fault of the Federal gov in your eyes lol.

Originally Posted by justinskins

Also, I'm not impressed by the Feds' "chipping away" at Jim Crow.

At this point, I could care less about your opinions here. You're showing that you're basically ignorant on simple history or know the history, but are twisting it to fit an agenda. No matter what the Feds did, short of nuking the South with that secret A-bomb that only kills Klan members, you would be demanding money.

Originally Posted by justinskins

Some things are so evil that the only moral response is righteous fury.

Jim Crow was morally evil, it did not justify a 2nd civil war over.

Originally Posted by justinskins

I'd be saying the same thing if the US had refused to get involved in the European theater of World War II; and plenty of people say it about the failures of international institutions to do anything about the Rwanda genocide. The difference is that slavery and Jim Crow happened in our own country, not somewhere overseas, and not enough people here were willing to fight it. Those who did fight were derided as radicals or race traitors, and safely ignored by respectable society.

Jim Crow was evil, it was not anywhere near the Holocaust or The Rwandan massacres(which also didn't rise to the level of the holocaust). Mass Genocide is worth fighting and dying for and the Federal government fought and died to end slavery, but you give them no credit for(which is about as ridiculous as it gets).

Originally Posted by justinskins

Once again, reparations are only one way to right the wrong, and what has been done to right it has had limited success.

Fixing the laws/Constitution are a much bigger thing than financial compensation. But believe whatever you want to.

Originally Posted by justinskins

Plus, I don't expect Southern states to do anything about race relations any time soon. Their governments find it difficult to enough to admit that the Confederacy was an institution devoted to evil, and they will never voluntarily offer anything to their victims. Somehow, all the whites who were responsible for perpetuating Jim Crow mysteriously disappeared after the 1960s. I'm sure Dave will tell you that no one alive is really responsible for any of that, even though there are plenty of Southern whites in their 60s and 70s who were adults during Jim Crow. I guess they were all marching with Martin Luther King?

You're putting words in a lot of mouths here and ultimately saying nothing of value.

I'm done with this. You have no f*cking clue what you're talking about and it gets tiresome to debate a point with someone who's constantly pulling falsehoods and really inane positions out of their ass just to avoid giving credit to the very people and entities that fought against what they are so opposed to. What's next in your song book? Demanding that Great Britain pay Israel reparations for not invading Germany on their own and ending the Holocaust? Demanding that the US give the Palestinians their own homeland in Arizona since the US refused to get involved when the Israelis took Palestine in 67? Are you just faking it or are you just the biggest liberal weepy fop that wants to create a neverending culture of apologies in American history? I have no problem with people who can document their ancestry to sue companies who profited off of slavery, but demanding federal reparations is laughable frankly. And its an insult to every Union soldier who was killed or maimed fighting to end slavery and any federal employee who sweat and bled in the 20th century to try and enforce the laws.

[Keino]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

No matter what the Feds did, short of nuking the South with that secret A-bomb that only kills Klan members, would satisfy your demands.

Where do I sign up for this option?

[RedskinsDave]

Originally Posted by Keino

Where do I sign up for this option?

Something we can all agree on. We need to get Raytheon on this.

[Keino]

I was thinking of moving the thread to the political forum, because it has become a bit heated. Any objections?

[RedskinsDave]

Hasn't it also run its course?

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by Keino

Where do I sign up for this option?

The government doesn't like the acknowledge the existence of the AGM-192 "The Conway Twitty"

Originally Posted by Keino

I was thinking of moving the thread to the political forum, because it has become a bit heated. Any objections?

You know who else moved threads? Him...

[Fathead]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

So is your stance that subsequent generations should never be held responsible for the crimes of their government?

Absolutely. Just like I'm not responsible for the actions of my parents, and my children are not responsible for my actions. Inherited guilt is a religious concept, and has no place in the public discourse.

Originally Posted by justinskins

Unfortunately, this statement is demonstrably false. It is the same federal government under the same constitution, and the state governments exist in legal continuity with their former selves despite have rewritten their constitutions.

No, a government is made up of its citizens. None of those citizens are alive. They are responsible, not me. I am not responsible for their crimes. If you want to volunteer your money and time for the crimes of your ancestry, more power to you.

And I say this as someone who has ancestors that had land illegally seized by the state of Missouri, had ancestors killed by that state, others that were forced by gunpoint to leave the state, and yet I don't think a single person in Missouri owes me or my family a dime or even an apology.

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by Fathead

Absolutely. Just like I'm not responsible for the actions of my parents, and my children are not responsible for my actions. Inherited guilt is a religious concept, and has no place in the public discourse.

So what happens when the crimes aren't discovered or the punishment isn't determined until the generation that committed the crimes is out of power? Nobody is held responsible?

[Fathead]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

So what happens when the crimes aren't discovered or the punishment isn't determined until the generation that committed the crimes is out of power? Nobody is held responsible?

What happens when we find out that the murderer is already dead in a murder case?

[cal_junior]

Originally Posted by Fathead

What happens when we find out that the murderer is already dead in a murder case?

We're talking about when a country commits the crime, not an individual.

[justinskins]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

I'm done with this. You have no f*cking clue what you're talking about and it gets tiresome to debate a point with someone who's constantly pulling falsehoods and really inane positions out of their ass just to avoid giving credit to the very people and entities that fought against what they are so opposed to.

Please. I could find, and have known, plenty of professional historians who would agree that the federal government, and Northern whites, bear some of the responsibility for what was done to blacks in the United States. If you want to believe there was no institutionalized racism in the North, knock yourself out.

To say that I give no credit to the Federal government for ending slavery is nonsense. As far as I'm concerned, Lincoln was one of the greatest heroes in American history (so was LBJ for the Civil Rights Act alone). But that can't absolve the federal government for what it did, and didn't do, before and after, which was my only point.