Why didn't we go after Holmes?

[HanburgerBum]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

How many times has Ochocinco been arrested? How many times has he been suspended by the league? Marshall's been arrested a few times, but never suspended by the league. The next time Holmes runs afoul of the drug policy, he's gone for an entire year and he's shown that he just won't stop smoking pot. He had that rep at OSU, he had that rep during the run up to the draft where he was taken and he's had that rep in the league.

There's baggage in the Ochocinco/Randy Moss sense, then there's baggage in the Santonio Holmes/Jared Allen sense. One gets you suspended from the league, one doesn't. And Holmes' production hasn't been good enough to justify the headaches(60ish catches for 900ish yards with 5 Tds on average).

To tell the truth, I don't particularly like any WR with any kind of baggage--be it the kind that gets him arrested and suspended or the mouthy kind that upsets team chemistry. So, I wouldn't have any problem with passing on Holmes.

I was just saying that if I was going to do either trade, I would have used a 4th (or maybe it would have taken only a 5th) rounder as a gamble on Holmes before I would ship a high 2nd and a 3rd for McNabb, because the cost is so much lower. For the current Redskins team, the best approach probably would be to do neither trade and use the picks to rebuild.

As for Ochocinco and Brandon Marshall, Cincy apparently asked for two 1st rounders and presumably Denver is asking for a 1st rounder. The price is just too high.

[Keino]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

No, you don't.

Holmes had very good production last year, but he's also a major headcase who'll be suspended for the first 4 games and is in a walk year. It should be telling that the Steelers couldn't do better than a 5th for him considering his production. Either teams thought he was a product of the system around him(and a mid round rookie posting nearly 800 yards last year for the Steelers also would tend to confirm that) or teams didn't think that he was worth the trouble. Before you say "What about Randy Moss a few years ago..." teams thought Moss was done physically, the Pats privately worked out Moss and knew that he wasn't.

Holmes is a talented WR, but he's just not worth the trouble.

I thought he was speaking of Moss, Santana not Moss, Randy.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

To tell the truth, I don't particularly like any WR with any kind of baggage--be it the kind that gets him arrested and suspended or the mouthy kind that upsets team chemistry. So, I wouldn't have any problem with passing on Holmes.

I was just saying that if I was going to do either trade, I would have used a 4th (or maybe it would have taken only a 5th) rounder as a gamble on Holmes before I would ship a high 2nd and a 3rd for McNabb, because the cost is so much lower. For the current Redskins team, the best approach probably would be to do neither trade and use the picks to rebuild.

These statements are contradictory.

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

As for Ochocinco and Brandon Marshall, Cincy apparently asked for two 1st rounders and presumably Denver is asking for a 1st rounder. The price is just too high.

Thats all well and good, but thats not the issue you wanted to bring up. You tried to compare Holmes' issues to Ochocinco and Marshall, there's just no comparison.

Originally Posted by Keino

I thought he was speaking of Moss, Santana not Moss, Randy.

I know, I was using Moss, Randy as a pre-emptive strike against the inevitable "Well, the Pats took a chance on Moss, Randy" argument.

[nicefellow31]

I would take a pass on Holmes. As many pointed out, he has a four game suspension hanging over his head and even if he doesn't continue to smoke pot, he's just one bad supplement away from a year long suspension.

[colkurtz]

McKnabb has the experience to work with the WR we still have and to bring them to their best potential. Next year is not a SB season. We've got to keep our draft picks and find out what we really have in our WR group, with an improved OL and an excellent QB.

[44 goes 50 gut]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

There aren't many harder working players in league history than him. The reason the Bengals have big couches in their locker room is because Ochocinco sleeps there during the season because he's watching tape all night long. Talentwise, he's a decent player, but his success is because he knows everything about who he's facing on the field.

Something I can agree with Akh about, don't confuse a guy who clowns around and makes fun of the NFL's "no fun league" stuffed shirt policies with a guy who gets arrested regularly. Fans of the original "fun bunch" should applaud him.

The guy matched his NFL fines last year with a Charity contribution of the same size... Just to prove that money isn't the point. You don't have to like his clowning but you can't compare him to a guy who gets arrested on a regular basis.

[InsomniaKiller]

As much as I think the Steelers could've gotten more for Holmes if they weren't apparently in such a rush to dump him, I still would've hated giving up any of our picks for him. The Jets got him for almost nothing, but we're already without a 2nd or 3rd round pick right now. A 4th or 5th for us, for a wide receiver, would be a terrible move, just because of where we stand with so few picks right now.

[whiskeytown]

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

I was just saying that if I was going to do either trade, I would have used a 4th (or maybe it would have taken only a 5th) rounder as a gamble on Holmes before I would ship a high 2nd and a 3rd for McNabb, because the cost is so much lower.

disagree.

look at New Orleans and Indy. sure, some good recievers but also several that could be considered "no-names" or guys that would be lost/insignificant if they didn't have Manning/Brees throwing to them.

what would Holmes be if he'd been in Cleveland these last few years instead of Pittsburgh? McNabb made 5 conf.champ. games throwing to Pinkston, Thrash, et al... so Moss, Cooley and the young guys should be decent enough if we can fix the line. sure, the price for McNabb was higher than it was for Holmes, but there's many really good reasons for that.

[Hr fan]

Is Holmes at WR as dominant at his position as Haynesworth? No way. Then why take on a bigger headcase at a less valuable position?

The new FO is doing everything it can to change the toxic dysfunction of the franchise's last 10 years, including possibly offing the best DT in whom $32M has already neen invested. Whether or not our need at WR, Holmes is not the character that the team requires to turn around it's locker room, and should be passed even if no choice was involved.

[BtwnDaTackles]

Absolutely not, the last things i want to doo is give up a draft pick, (the few that we have), for a problem in the locker room...

[ZainZ]

no 5th round pick on my draft board is gonna be a super bowl MVP in the near future . he played huge in that super bowl but obviously he is a bit stupid.

skins didnt go after him because hes roughly 5"10. a speed receiver but too short. doesnt fit in with the kind of receivers shanahan wants. they already have santana

[HanburgerBum]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

These statements are contradictory.



Thats all well and good, but thats not the issue you wanted to bring up. You tried to compare Holmes' issues to Ochocinco and Marshall, there's just no comparison.



I know, I was using Moss, Randy as a pre-emptive strike against the inevitable "Well, the Pats took a chance on Moss, Randy" argument.

Not sure why you think my statements were contradictory. I am just saying that I am not that excited about trading for Holmes, but I would that before I would ship a high 2nd in 2010 and probably a 3rd in 2011 for McNabb.

As for comparing Holmes with Ochocinco and Marshall, why not? They are all good WRs apparently on the trading block at some point or were the target of a trade proposal and they all come with some baggage.

Fine, Ochocino's kind of baggage is the least troublesome, Marshall's less troublesome, and Holmes' most troublemsome. That's why Cincy asked for two 1st rounders for Ocho, Denver is apparently asking for a 1st rounder for Marshall and Pittsburgh accepted a 5th rounder for Holmes.

Given those respective price tags and if I am in the market for a WR, I personally would rather take a gamble with Holmes because the price is so much lower. If he doesn't behave, just dump him--it didn't cost that much.

[HanburgerBum]

Originally Posted by whiskeytown

disagree.

look at New Orleans and Indy. sure, some good recievers but also several that could be considered "no-names" or guys that would be lost/insignificant if they didn't have Manning/Brees throwing to them.

what would Holmes be if he'd been in Cleveland these last few years instead of Pittsburgh? McNabb made 5 conf.champ. games throwing to Pinkston, Thrash, et al... so Moss, Cooley and the young guys should be decent enough if we can fix the line. sure, the price for McNabb was higher than it was for Holmes, but there's many really good reasons for that.

My problem with the McNabb trade is not because I don't think McNabb is any good--I think McNabb is very good. I just don't think he is right for the current Redskins, because I don't think Washington is just one good QB away from being a contender.

This is a crappy, old 4-12 team with arguably the worst offensive line in the NFL. How is McNabb going to instantly transform this team into a playoff team? If not, by the time the rest of the team gets good enough, I think McNabb would be too old. Ironically, I believe trading for McNabb actually retards the rebuilding process rather than accelerates it, because the team would be without those two young players (the 2nd in 2010 and probably 3rd in 2011).

While Holmes would obviously be a gamble because of his baggage, the cost (4th or 5th rounder) would be so much lower. If Holmes behaves, he is still young enough to be part of the rebuilding process. If he doesn't and has to be dumped, the (4th or 5th rounder) prospect lost would presumably be of a significantly lower caliber than the 2nd and 3rd round prospects lost in the McNabb trade.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

Not sure why you think my statements were contradictory. I am just saying that I am not that excited about trading for Holmes, but I would that before I would ship a high 2nd in 2010 and probably a 3rd in 2011 for McNabb.

You don't like WRs with baggage, you don't have any problem with passing on Holmes, but you would have made the deal for a 4th or 5th. You're being hypocritical. Again.

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

As for comparing Holmes with Ochocinco and Marshall, why not? They are all good WRs apparently on the trading block at some point or were the target of a trade proposal and they all come with some baggage.

I've pointed out the difference. You're just repeating yourself instead of discussing the differences.

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

Fine, Ochocino's kind of baggage is the least troublesome, Marshall's less troublesome, and Holmes' most troublemsome. That's why Cincy asked for two 1st rounders for Ocho, Denver is apparently asking for a 1st rounder for Marshall and Pittsburgh accepted a 5th rounder for Holmes.

You can't compare Ochocinco and either Holmes or Marshall. Ochocinco hasn't been arrested or suspended ever.

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

Given those respective price tags and if I am in the market for a WR, I personally would rather take a gamble with Holmes because the price is so much lower. If he doesn't behave, just dump him--it didn't cost that much.

But you don't like WRs with baggage lol. Make up your mind on what your position is please.

[cal_junior]

I'm not really sure Holmes' body would hold up to the hitting that goes on in the NFL. He's pretty skinny: