The Real Question Is...

[Battle Cat]

Andre Carter is better in a 4-3 but still produced as a 3-4 OLB. He did not turn into a bust due to a change in system like Carriker did. So he helps prove my point not yours.

What do you base Carriker being a solid DT, DE or anything on? His Nebraska days? Any stats? He help his defensive ends be much better? A 4-3 defensive tackle should have better stats than a 3-4 DE. So if his stats here are less than what he did in St Louis is that a successful 3-4 DE?

Merriman not being picked up has more to do about injury or steroids and him being washed up than anything else. Plus not trading Brown doesn't mean that there was no offers by any means. They were just not going to give him away.

I am not a talent scout but if Leon Washington after a near career ending injury can be traded and LenDale 300 lb White, can be traded then there was a market for running backs just Miami wanted too much. Don't know why you compare a Pro Bowler like Brown to a bust like Carriker but ok I have just proven there was a market for running backs add in Larry Johnson and the guy from the Vikings and Tomlinson. Which Brown was better than all of them easily. There was and is a market for trades and signings just not for Carriker.

The comparison between Haynesworth and Arrington is if you dont do what the Redskins front office wants they will use the media to try to encourage you to and the fans buy right into it. Now that it is clear that Haynesworth is not coming into non voluntary workouts watch all the feel good stories about Haynesworth come out and how much the Redskins front office loves him now they see they are not going to get their way.

[Battle Cat]

Originally Posted by SKINSATIONAL

Haynesworth does come across as a cat that needs to be stroked from time to time. However, I have to agree with Akh on the point that he was brought in to do a specific job in a specific scheme and then everything he agreed upon was thrown out the window when the new regime came in. I've dealt with similar situations in my career and it's no walk in the park. As for Caririker, he was a fish out of water in the scheme they were using him in. It was even questioned how effective he would be in the Rams' scheme when he was originally drafted because his skill set was better suited for the 3-4. The other main thing we need to keep in mind is that Haslett wouldn't have pulled for Carriker so strongly uless he had confidence in him from having previously coached him. I think he will be much better this yr than in years past.

That is sort of like the Adam Arch scenario more than the Arrington one but I think there are similarities with both. I think Haynesworth prefers to be in a 4-3 scheme but for a 100 million would happily play in a 3-4, 4-6, or Tampa 2 over playing for less money in a 4-3 .

I hope Carriker plays well and becomes an ALL Pro. I just think if we step back and look at things realisticly he may be pretty much who he has been. Hasslett also brought in some UFL guys so him coaching Carriker may need a grain of salt with it. I hope he is better this year than in previous years but even if he is, is that good enough to be a starter in the NFL on a top 10 defense?

[akhhorus]

First off: Please cut down on your run on sentences, they really make what you want to say unclear.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

Andre Carter is better in a 4-3 but still produced as a 3-4 OLB. He did not turn into a bust due to a change in system like Carriker did. So he helps prove my point not yours.

Carter had 4.5 sacks in a 3-4(after getting 27.5 sacks in 52 games in a 4-3 in San Fran), and Nolan even try to resign him after his sole season in a 3-4. So no, you're wrong here and you've done nothing but prove you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

What do you base Carriker being a solid DT, DE or anything on? His Nebraska days? Any stats? He help his defensive ends be much better? A 4-3 defensive tackle should have better stats than a 3-4 DE. So if his stats here are less than what he did in St Louis is that a successful 3-4 DE?

The level of his play has nothing to do with his stats. His job, like it was in St Louis is to tie up blockers. I don't know of any organization that keeps those stats. In 07 and 08, Carriker was a very effective Defensive tackle who showed he can hold the point against the run. Thats what we'll be asking him to do in DC.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

Merriman not being picked up has more to do about injury or steroids and him being washed up than anything else. Plus not trading Brown doesn't mean that there was no offers by any means. They were just not going to give him away.

Ah, so its not just about sheer perceived value. Thanks for proving my point.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

I am not a talent scout but if Leon Washington after a near career ending injury can be traded and LenDale 300 lb White, can be traded then there was a market for running backs just Miami wanted too much. Don't know why you compare a Pro Bowler like Brown to a bust like Carriker but ok I have just proven there was a market for running backs add in Larry Johnson and the guy from the Vikings and Tomlinson. Which Brown was better than all of them easily. There was and is a market for trades and signings just not for Carriker.

Chester Taylor, Tomlinson and LJ were unrestricted free agents, so they have nothing to do with this discussion.

The simple fact is that the market for players in trades is very weird right now, with players going for unusual prices. Ernie Sims, a good young OLB, got dealt to the Eagles for basically a low 5th round pick. Tony Scheffler was part of that deal also, and the Lions got him and a pick for Sims. Are you going to try and claim that they have little value?

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

The comparison between Haynesworth and Arrington is if you dont do what the Redskins front office wants they will use the media to try to encourage you to and the fans buy right into it.

Based on what? Shanahan was publicly saying all throughout the draft that he wanted Haynesworth and they wouldn't deal him. Strange way to try and slander someone via the media.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

Now that it is clear that Haynesworth is not coming into non voluntary workouts watch all the feel good stories about Haynesworth come out and how much the Redskins front office loves him now they see they are not going to get their way.

Huh?

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

I hope Carriker plays well and becomes an ALL Pro. I just think if we step back and look at things realisticly he may be pretty much who he has been. Hasslett also brought in some UFL guys so him coaching Carriker may need a grain of salt with it. I hope he is better this year than in previous years but even if he is, is that good enough to be a starter in the NFL on a top 10 defense?

The skins' defense wasn't a top 10 defense last year. And that door with Haslett swings both ways: Haslett coached him in St Louis, if he thought he sucked and was a bust there, don't you think that he would warn Shanahan not to deal for him?

[LATrueRedskin]

I like Haslett the coordinator. Now that Blatche is gone, I'm excited to see what our defense can really do. I don't expect the coaches to ram a defense down the players' throats without them being pysically capable to play it. Like others said before, I'm expecting us to play both a 4-3 and 3-4 with all sorts of crazy stuff going on.

[LATrueRedskin]

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

Andre Carter is better in a 4-3 but still produced as a 3-4 OLB. He did not turn into a bust due to a change in system like Carriker did. So he helps prove my point not yours.

What do you base Carriker being a solid DT, DE or anything on? His Nebraska days? Any stats? He help his defensive ends be much better? A 4-3 defensive tackle should have better stats than a 3-4 DE. So if his stats here are less than what he did in St Louis is that a successful 3-4 DE?

Merriman not being picked up has more to do about injury or steroids and him being washed up than anything else. Plus not trading Brown doesn't mean that there was no offers by any means. They were just not going to give him away.

I am not a talent scout but if Leon Washington after a near career ending injury can be traded and LenDale 300 lb White, can be traded then there was a market for running backs just Miami wanted too much. Don't know why you compare a Pro Bowler like Brown to a bust like Carriker but ok I have just proven there was a market for running backs add in Larry Johnson and the guy from the Vikings and Tomlinson. Which Brown was better than all of them easily. There was and is a market for trades and signings just not for Carriker.

The comparison between Haynesworth and Arrington is if you dont do what the Redskins front office wants they will use the media to try to encourage you to and the fans buy right into it. Now that it is clear that Haynesworth is not coming into non voluntary workouts watch all the feel good stories about Haynesworth come out and how much the Redskins front office loves him now they see they are not going to get their way.

To be fair, I haven't seen the Redskins bad mouth Haynesworth about anything, and vice versa. The worst thing I've heard Haynesworth say is that he wasn't excited about playing in a 3-4, but Haslett described how he's going to be used and he's now fine with it. I think the media blew it way out of proportion because he didn't show up to voluntary minicamp. Polamalu didn't show up to the Steelers minicamp either.

[Hr fan]

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

My point is a good NFL player can play in a 4-3 or a 3-4. He may be more effective in one or another but a guy like Carriker who did absolutely nothing in a 4-3 is not going to all of a sudden be a good player in a 3-4. At most a serviceable back up. I just hear people talking like he is going to be a starter or even an impact player.

We gave up basicly nothing for him because no one else wanted him. No 3-4 teams wanted him and no 4-3 teams wanted him. We gave nothing and sometimes you get what you pay for.

They did not cut Haynesworth because they paid him so much money. They just tried to use the media to get him into workouts. Once they paid that bonus they had no intentions on ever trading him. None what so ever. Unless a Snyder or Al Davis type of guy came in the picture and offered to pay back some money and give allot of draft picks. Just like they were not going to get rid of Arrington until he pushed the issue in the media and fans started standing up and cheering when he came in and replaced Holman in games and out played him to the point they had to act because everyone saw it was personal. They just wanted him to restructure his contract just like they just wanted Haynesworth to come to camp. Neither were cancers just Redskins play the media game with certain players and fans buy into it.

Comparing 4-3 DTs to 3-4 DEs is in a sense apples and oranges. In the 4-3 DTs are usually required to penetrate, disrupting and applying pressure. In a 3-4 the primary responsibility is to occupy hopefully multiple blockers when required and stop the run. In Carriker's first year (healthy) the Rams had a statistically better run defense than in either of his injury mared years. This is more meaningful in a 3-4. I am more worried about Carriker's injury history, and feel that this is the reason he was available so cheaply. He can not pass a physical yet, so other teams are leery.

The Redskins are in a different stance re Carriker. Haslett KNOWS what he can bring to the party if healthy. As a draft day trade allows for no physical his price was correspondingly low. So the team's risk was purely the guaranteed $ in his contract - the Rams are on the signing bonus hook, which I think accelerates rather than being passed on with the player. The risk, still primarily health, is low compared to the reward that Haslett knows can be brought to the table. At the price paid if only a backup he is still a bargain.

And AH's problems with the FO can be, and are being, addressed IMO. This wasn't true of Arrington, who wanted the millions that he thought the FO should have paid regardless of his agents' goof. He still hasn't gotten over the "loss" of the money - just listen to him on radio.

[Moe]

What do you base Carriker being a solid DT, DE or anything on? His Nebraska days? Any stats? He help his defensive ends be much better? A 4-3 defensive tackle should have better stats than a 3-4 DE. So if his stats here are less than what he did in St Louis is that a successful 3-4 DE?

Stats can paint part of the picture but they never tell the whole story, especially when talking about a singular component in a dynamic system, and even moreso when that component is put into an unfamiliar situation as Carriker was (he was a DE in college but his rookie year they asked him to put on 10-15 lbs. to move inside). That being said, let's look at some stats!
Rams D in '06 (prior to Carriker):
23rd overall in yardage, 31st against the run, 8th against the pass

Rams D in '07 (rookie year):
21st overall, 20th against rush, 21st against pass
Carriker tallied 30 tackles, 2 sacks and a safety en route to being voted rookie of the year for the Rams.

His last two years at Nebraska he had:
43 tkls, 9 1/2 sacks and 21 qb hurries, and
52 tkls, 7 sacks, 1 int and 12 qb hurries.

Why a team would take a player based on that production and decide to put him into a new position that will diminish his talents is beyond me, but he still had decent numbers for a rookie at a position that posts a higher first round bust rate than QB's. Look at what happened to Orakpo last year here; obviously a talented a pass rusher and obviously struggled in coverage....that hinders a D and gets coaches fired. Maybe Carriker is little more than Phil Daniels v2.0, but I think there's a decent chance that he can be a much more impactful player based on him moving back his natural spot.

[Hr fan]

Originally Posted by cal_junior

It'll be interesting if the Skins happen to be 8-7 that last week and are somehow already eliminated from the playoffs.

I can't really pull for the Skins to lose (especially against the Giants), but knowing we'd keep a better draft pick would certainly soften the blow of a loss.

You have just validated Goodell's changing all week 17 games to intradivision.

[HanburgerBum]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

When Haynesworth got benched for getting a sack on a audible he made on the line call last year he was absolved of any blame in that situation.





What if a giant satellite dish sprouts out of his butt and guides in the Alien invasion? You're piling supposition on top of supposition and trying to use that as honest debate. It ain't working lol.



At most: potentially the coaches. You said that Haynesworth was on the road to becoming Locker room cancer. You basically have nothing but your supposition on this subject. He decided to work out elsewhere. The skins could have dealt him last week if they wanted to. There's more solid supposition that Haynesworth and the Skins have worked things out than your "locker room cancer" theory.

Do you believe Wash tried to include Haynesworth in the McNabb trade? If yes, why would Shanahan be looking to dump an elite player if he wasn't concerned about the player not being a "good fit" and becoming a distraction and a negative in the locker room?

Hey, I hope I am wrong about Albert. I hope he and Shanahan have resolved whatever differences they had. I hope Haynesworth will either be quick enough to play end or will willingly take on the NT job.

But, my head tells me differently. I think Albert has already gotten paid for the bulk of his big fat contract and he isn't going to bend over backwards to please anybody. He will do just enough not to get suspended if he is still on the Redskins.

And, I believe Shanahan thinks that about Haynesworth and will not stop trying to trade him. And, I think Wash will take the first semi-reasonable offer it gets for Albert.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

Do you believe Wash tried to include Haynesworth in the McNabb trade? If yes, why would Shanahan be looking to dump an elite player if he wasn't concerned about the player not being a "good fit" and becoming a distraction and a negative in the locker room?

Christ, more supposition on top of supposition. If this was true, Haynesworth would be an ex-Redskins because they would have dealt him to Tennessee.

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

Hey, I hope I am wrong about Albert. I hope he and Shanahan have resolved whatever differences they had. I hope Haynesworth will either be quick enough to play end or will willingly take on the NT job.

No, you don't.

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

But, my head tells me differently. I think Albert has already gotten paid for the bulk of his big fat contract and he isn't going to bend over backwards to please anybody. He will do just enough not to get suspended if he is still on the Redskins.

Okay, in your universe: why would he care if he's suspended or not? He's cashed the check already.

Originally Posted by HanburgerBum

And, I believe Shanahan thinks that about Haynesworth and will not stop trying to trade him. And, I think Wash will take the first semi-reasonable offer it gets for Albert.

You can believe whatever you want to, but if this was true, Shanahan would have dealt him already.

[HanburgerBum]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

Christ, more supposition on top of supposition. If this was true, Haynesworth would be an ex-Redskins because they would have dealt him to Tennessee.



No, you don't.



Okay, in your universe: why would he care if he's suspended or not? He's cashed the check already.



You can believe whatever you want to, but if this was true, Shanahan would have dealt him already.

I think the reason Haynesworth hasn't been dealt already is that the offers have been insulting--probably a 4th rounder or even less. Giving up an elite DT who is only 28 and the remainder of whose contract is relatively cheap for very little in return doesn't make a lot of sense at this point.

I think Shanahan has decided to keep Haynesworth for the time being and see how the situation pans out in minicamps and TC, unless an offer materializes that is at least semi-reasonable. Perhaps, Albert will change his attitude or prove to be quick enough to play DE.

I am at a loss why you would impugn my motives in this matter. I am a Redskins fan. Of course, I want Albert to be an elite player for the team. If he becomes a cancer, how would that benefit the Redskins? They would either have to release him or get virtually nothing for him in a trade. I fear Haynesworth will become a cancer because of his actions/words this offseason, but that doesn't mean I wish for that to come true.

As for Haynesworth not caring about being suspended, I am wondering whether detrimental conduct on his part can be basis for the Redskins to demand a refund of a portion of the bonus already paid him. If yes, that would be a reason why he would do just enough to avoid a suspension.

[Battle Cat]

Originally Posted by akhhorus

First off: Please cut down on your run on sentences, they really make what you want to say unclear.



Carter had 4.5 sacks in a 3-4(after getting 27.5 sacks in 52 games in a 4-3 in San Fran), and Nolan even try to resign him after his sole season in a 3-4. So no, you're wrong here and you've done nothing but prove you don't know what you're talking about.



The level of his play has nothing to do with his stats. His job, like it was in St Louis is to tie up blockers. I don't know of any organization that keeps those stats. In 07 and 08, Carriker was a very effective Defensive tackle who showed he can hold the point against the run. Thats what we'll be asking him to do in DC.



Ah, so its not just about sheer perceived value. Thanks for proving my point.



Chester Taylor, Tomlinson and LJ were unrestricted free agents, so they have nothing to do with this discussion.

The simple fact is that the market for players in trades is very weird right now, with players going for unusual prices. Ernie Sims, a good young OLB, got dealt to the Eagles for basically a low 5th round pick. Tony Scheffler was part of that deal also, and the Lions got him and a pick for Sims. Are you going to try and claim that they have little value?




Based on what? Shanahan was publicly saying all throughout the draft that he wanted Haynesworth and they wouldn't deal him. Strange way to try and slander someone via the media.



Huh?



The skins' defense wasn't a top 10 defense last year. And that door with Haslett swings both ways: Haslett coached him in St Louis, if he thought he sucked and was a bust there, don't you think that he would warn Shanahan not to deal for him?

If you dont like my sentence structure then dont read my post. And yes you proved my point that Carter still produced in a 3-4 instead of totally disappearing like Carriker. Good that you can base Carriker being effective on nothing concrete at all just your personal opinion. Very conveinant.

So you have went from there is no market for trading for running backs to the market is weird. Also Ernie Sims is also a bust so comparing him to Carriker is actual good on your part. Not as big a bust as Carriker but a bust as well.

I think the redskins will definitely be a top 10 defense this year if the offense can keep them off the field. (The offense was the only reason we didnt have a top10 defense imo).

I am sure Haslett told Shanny about Carriker as you suggest. That he is a body we can bring in to camp and that if it doesnt work we can always cut him. Not that he could possibly be a starter or is guaranteed to make the team. Probably said he is a bust that we can take a long shot flyer on and he knows how I run my show and can help with other defensive lineman. Similar to Shanny bringing in Galloway. Guess you have him starting and contributing as well.

[akhhorus]

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

If you dont like my sentence structure then dont read my post.

This is a written medium. Asking you to clear up your contributions isn't asking much.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

And yes you proved my point that Carter still produced in a 3-4 instead of totally disappearing like Carriker. Good that you can base Carriker being effective on nothing concrete at all just your personal opinion. Very conveinant.

Carter was a defensive end, Carriker was a defensive tackle. You do realize that defensive tackles aren't judged on the number of sacks or tackles, right? Carter went from getting 25 sacks in the 3 seasons he was healthy to 4.5 and struggling(which Carter himself even says, but I guess you know the truth, eh?) in a different defense. And his team thought so much of his ability in the 3-4 defense that they didn't even make him a contract offer.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

So you have went from there is no market for trading for running backs to the market is weird.

No, the whole market is weird. That was my point.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

Also Ernie Sims is also a bust so comparing him to Carriker is actual good on your part. Not as big a bust as Carriker but a bust as well.

Sims was drafted as a weakside LB asked to be a tackling machine. He's averaged over 100 tackles a year since entering the league, so no he's not a bust.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

I think the redskins will definitely be a top 10 defense this year if the offense can keep them off the field. (The offense was the only reason we didnt have a top10 defense imo).

And the fact that the defense couldn't stop the long ball regardless of what the offense did.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

I am sure Haslett told Shanny about Carriker as you suggest. That he is a body we can bring in to camp and that if it doesnt work we can always cut him. Not that he could possibly be a starter or is guaranteed to make the team. Probably said he is a bust that we can take a long shot flyer on and he knows how I run my show and can help with other defensive lineman.

You can believe whatever you want to, but they wouldn't have dealt for Carriker unless they thought that they were getting a starter. If they were happy with Daniels at DE, they wouldn't have made the move.

Originally Posted by Battle Cat

Similar to Shanny bringing in Galloway. Guess you have him starting and contributing as well.

We didn't trade for Galloway and we already have 3 players who could start at WR, so I don't know what your point is.

[sinskin]

I think the whole point here is playing a different position in the NFL whether your a good football player or not is ...well... different.

Carter plays ALOT better as a 4-3 DE. This is proven by stats, and by just plain looking with your eyes. He admittedly hated playing OLB in a 3-4.

Carriker, although I agree he hasn't been setting the world on fire in St. Louis, wasn't a 4-3 DT and came here for basically nothing. What he can do in a 3-4 is unknown. We all can agree on that. If he blows the OL up playing in this scheme it will go down as a huge move by our new FO. What does this move hurt, when he has more upside imo then Mike Williams did on the OL being out of football for 2 to 3 years.

Anyone saying Sims is a bust is just plain not watching Football. If the Lions weren't in a major reconstruction they would have never traded him imo... I could be wrong.,

[Moe]

Anyone saying Sims is a bust is just plain not watching Football. If the Lions weren't in a major reconstruction they would have never traded him imo... I could be wrong.

Sims is a talent but was traded because he's had trouble holding up physically (in part beause he was out of position). He's a great athlete and productive when on the field, but lately that had been a bit of a problem and Schwartz wanted more durability at his spot.