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Old 02-19-2011, 04:03 PM
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I have no love for Unions, but Wisconsin had a budget surplus until they decided to do two big corporate tax cuts. Asking the Unions to take a paycut is one thing, trying to take away their right to collectively bargain is just wrong. If this about everyone tightening belts to fix the crisis, then the Governor should get rid of the tax cut since thats what caused the budget hole.
Per Politifact, the assertion in bold is wrong. "The tax cuts will cost the state a projected $140 million in tax revenue -- but not until the next two-year budget, from July 2011 to June 2013. The cuts are not even in effect yet, so they cannot be part of the current problem."

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...ve-budget-sur/
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:01 AM
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I still can't believe the Dems left the state to avoid voting on the issue. I couldn't even imagine the outcry if Republicans used that tactic. I saw two state senators on CNN this morning and the GOP senator said if the unions agree to cuts and give the actual bosses of their employees the rights to be bosses without having to run to the union every time, that their right to collectively bargain over their pay wouldn't be touched. I know asking unions to do anything but take, take, take is uncommon but I think there should be a compromise.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:30 AM
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I saw two state senators on CNN this morning and the GOP senator said if the unions agree to cuts and give the actual bosses of their employees the rights to be bosses without having to run to the union every time, that their right to collectively bargain over their pay wouldn't be touched
Well they've agreed to the cuts, right? I don't understand what he means with this second condition.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:57 AM
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Well they've agreed to the cuts, right? I don't understand what he means with this second condition.
Every little stupid thing for union workers is written down and anytime a boss wants to deviate from what's written down, he/she has to go check with the union bosses. Basically, if my boss asks me to work Saturday, I decide yes or no. If I was in a union, they would first have to ask my union people. I kind of like being my own man. Of course being overpaid and underworked is appealing all the same.
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:13 AM
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Every little stupid thing for union workers is written down and anytime a boss wants to deviate from what's written down, he/she has to go check with the union bosses. Basically, if my boss asks me to work Saturday, I decide yes or no. If I was in a union, they would first have to ask my union people. I kind of like being my own man. Of course being overpaid and underworked is appealing all the same.
So is this different from the collective bargaining? Because my understanding is that there are two points: The first being the health care and pension cuts Walker says the state needs to balance the budget and the second being the language that removes most collective bargaining rights for public workers.

If the unions have conceded to help the state budget shouldn't Walker concede on the bargaining rights point? That seems fair to me.

And is your point that everyone in a union is "overpaid and overworked," or just teachers?
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:25 AM
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The irony of this is that 2 out of the 3 biggest unions in Wisconsin endorsed Walker after he promised not to do this.

I honestly don't see what the problem is with the Gov taking one of the deals being offered:
-The bargaining rights come back after 2012 and can't be taken away with new legislation
-The Unions agrees to the cuts+the health plan changes but the bargaining rights are kept.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:02 PM
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So is this different from the collective bargaining? Because my understanding is that there are two points: The first being the health care and pension cuts Walker says the state needs to balance the budget and the second being the language that removes most collective bargaining rights for public workers.

If the unions have conceded to help the state budget shouldn't Walker concede on the bargaining rights point? That seems fair to me.

And is your point that everyone in a union is "overpaid and overworked," or just teachers?
The problems lie with the unions restricting the bosses' ability to "boss". That requires collective bargaining on everything, not just pay and benefits.

At this point, they should take a deal where the unions help the budget and leave most of their bargaining rights intact, just to get something accomplished. If his goal is to bust the unions, then he needs to hold his ground.

My point is that unions don't care about what is fair or just. They want every single penny they can get and then some. I have more compassion for teachers, cops and fireman but in some areas they are overpaid.
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  #23  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:08 PM
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At this point, they should take a deal where the unions help the budget and leave most of their bargaining rights intact, just to get something accomplished. If his goal is to bust the unions, then he needs to hold his ground.
I think this has a lot to do with it. Unions are huge for the Dems financially. Starting a nationwide chain reaction to cripple collective bargaining would great for Republicans.

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I have more compassion for teachers, cops and fireman but in some areas they are overpaid.
I think teachers are underpaid, but it is too easy for bad ones to keep their jobs. It would be great for our country if teachers got about 50 percent more $ and the industry was incredibly competitive.
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  #24  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:28 PM
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Time to change the thread title:

http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...ana-stop-votes

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House Democrats are leaving the state rather than vote on anti-union legislation, The Indianapolis Star has learned.

A source said Democrats are headed to Illinois, though it was possible some also might go to Kentucky. They need to go to a state with a Democratic governor to avoid being taken into police custody and returned to Indiana.

The House came into session this morning, with only two of the 40 Democrats present. Those two were needed to make a motion, and a seconding motion, for any procedural steps Democrats would want to take to ensure Republicans don’t do anything official without quorum.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:37 PM
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It seems politics is as copycat as football. Leaving the state to prevent a quorum has become the Wildcat of state government.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:43 PM
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It seems politics is as copycat as football. Leaving the state to prevent a quorum has become the Wildcat of state government.
again most state legislatures dont have a filibuster option to require proper debate, The GOP is tryiong to flex its new found majorities in the state legilatures and the Dems are fighting back with the only weapon they have. I applaud their efforts but it is a loser's game in the long run. Eventually the lines were redistricted in Texas despite Democrats saying they were going to stay out of state to force a compromise. The GOP knows the politicians will eventually wnat to come home and can wait it out.

The unions are partly to blame as they have such a stranglehold on the Democratic party they often are forcing primaries with more liberal candidates beating many moderate Democrats or forcing them out of the races and giving seats to the GOP this last time around. They over reached because they refused to believe 2008 was a fluke election with fluke turnout. To the end this year they hoped for the obama voters would come out and they sat home while the gop turned out like it was a presidential year.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:52 PM
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An assault on unions is a defense of America. Too bad that won't ever come to New York.
...and if we could only rid ourselves of that pesky freedom to assemble, we'd really be making progress.
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  #28  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:54 PM
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I applaud their efforts but it is a loser's game in the long run. Eventually the lines were redistricted in Texas despite Democrats saying they were going to stay out of state to force a compromise. The GOP knows the politicians will eventually wnat to come home and can wait it out.
Yeah, you're probably right.

Haven't seen anything from Walker's side that indicates they are willing to give at all. He's sticking to the "we're broke" line even though he's agreed to tax cuts for the next two budgets and isn't holding his friends (police and firefighter unions) to the same standards.

He wants to break the unions that didn't help him get elected.
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:55 PM
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For those of you who are under the mistaken impression that Gov. Walker is not extending these changes to the Firefighters and Police because "they supported him in the election", you're wrong. The unions in Milwaukee supported him while the statewide unions did not. See here: http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...cott-walker-a/

"During the campaign last November, leaders of the Milwaukee Professional Firefighters Association and Milwaukee Police Association appeared in an ad supporting Walker and blasting his opponent, Democrat Tom Barrett. Walker also won endorsements from the West Allis Professional Police Association and the Wisconsin Troopers Association

Walker didnít get the endorsements of two statewide unions, the Wisconsin Professional Police Association and the Professional Fire Fighters of Wisconsin, which both backed Barrett
."




As far as taking away the bargaining power of the unions? That is being done so the state won't have to face this problem again down the road. Why? The unions overwhelmingly support Democrats both financially and in warm bodies whenever they need it. The union benefit packages balooned during negotiations with Democratic politicians. It's a scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours relationship. One so bad that the state even collects the dues (from paychecks) for the unions. (Convenient, huh?) Changing these rules will eliminate these actions taking place again. It's best for the state.

Consider this from the link above: "In a letter to public workers, Walker explained that his proposal would limit bargaining only to base pay, which means unions could not bargain for improved health insurance, working conditions or pension benefits. Pay increases would be limited to increases in the cost of living, using the Consumer Price Index, unless voters approved other pay increases via a referendum. Union members would have to vote to stay unionized each year, and contracts could only last only a year, among other limitations."

If the union is such a great thing, why are those opposed to this bill so concerned about the requirement to vote every year to stay unionized? If the union is so great, it should be a lay-down decision, right?

As an aside, would any of you like to explain why confiscating dues from teachers who don't support the unions or their endorsed polical candidates is fair? If you dislike unions, is it fair that you must join the union to become a school teacher? Doesn't seem right, does it? You could make the argument that such a policy might disuade otherwise excellent teachers from pursuing the profession.

Regarding paying teachers more? The combined salary/benefits of Wisconsin teachers average around $75,000. Sounds low? Unfair? That compensation is for work that's performed over the course of nine months a year. Not bad at all. If they don't like it, they can move on to other endeavors. It's a choice.
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:06 PM
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...and if we could only rid ourselves of that pesky freedom to assemble, we'd really be making progress.
Yeah, I've seen this talking point you're all grabbing from somewhere. It isn't relevant but, good boy *pat* *pat*.
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