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  #76  
Old 11-03-2011, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cal_junior View Post
-Stop it. People in this thread were angry.
They certainly weren't "sports radio call in/irrational fan" angry, which was your implication.

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Originally Posted by cal_junior View Post
-I was addressing a specific point made by a poster. No straw man.
In the future, whenever someone agrees with your posts but says something completely absurd, whether or not it happens on the board or not, I'll be sure to hold you responsible for it.

And I'll say again: its not the "fans" who are ripping Mike/Kyle and suggesting that Cooley is expendable. A lot of pundits/reporters are saying the same things. Whining about the fans being 'disloyal' because they're upset(which Cooley has done before), is also another straw man.
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  #77  
Old 11-03-2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cal_junior View Post
How about wanting Kyle removed after less than a full season? (which I heard quite a bit last year) Or Mike's removal after one season? Or calling for Chris Cooley to be cut hours after he goes on IR?

You'd have a case if he was only talking about Kyle Shanahan, but Cooley was making a larger point that some of us agree with.
While ripping anyone who made legit criticisms of the team. Kyle's handling of the QB situation last year were enough for me to fire him after one year. You will have to show me where anyone advocated cutting Cooley. Trading him (if he had value) isn't as preposterous as he or you if you agree with him make it sounds. A forward thinking team would have traded him 2 years ago when someone would have overpaid for his services. Furthermore, while I didn't agree with the idea of firing Mike after one season, there were certainly valid and legitimate arguments in favor of doing so, in particular, the number of things we have been debating that I am not going to rehash. Suffice it to say that there are/were plenty of amateurish moves by Mike, from schematic to Personnel to handling the media that warrant examination. So even if I don't agree with the conclusion, I can't act like the notion of firing him was completely unreasonable based on the reasoning put forth.

My point is that he is improperly ripping fans who dare to criticize, when in fact he should just focus on doing his job. I don't see where he is talking about Kyle, Mike or anyone. Moreover, the ripping of Fans who by definition are unreasonable for being unreasonable is like yelling at a rose for being red. There is no point.

And to head off the eventual semantic game: Fan is short for fanatic which is defined as: a person who has wildly excessive or irrational devotion, dedication, or enthusiasm
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Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
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  #78  
Old 11-03-2011, 10:45 AM
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They certainly weren't "sports radio call in/irrational fan" angry, which was your implication.



In the future, whenever someone agrees with your posts but says something completely absurd, whether or not it happens on the board or not, I'll be sure to hold you responsible for it.

And I'll say again: its not the "fans" who are ripping Mike/Kyle and suggesting that Cooley is expendable. A lot of pundits/reporters are saying the same things. Whining about the fans being 'disloyal' because they're upset(which Cooley has done before), is also another straw man.
-I said that fans in this thread were upset with the comments. I meant exactly that.

-I wasn't holding Keino responsible for anybody else. I simply addressed his specific point about Kyle. So again, not a straw man.
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  #79  
Old 11-03-2011, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Skins7ny View Post
The only older guys we have signed are Gaffney and Stallworth. I view them as 1-year stopgaps to prevent a total meltdown of the passing game while our young WRs learn the game. It has not worked out well, and I said at the time I would not not have signed either player but instead let Armstrong and Austin develop while the three rookie WRs take their lumps on the field and in practice. Shanahan opted to sign 2 veterans, probably because rookie WRs habitually are the least likely to contribute to a team in their rookie year, and our top WR pick (Hankerson) was known to be far from ready.

I disagree with the nepotism argument-Kyle was already a coordinator and was considered a rising star in the league. He had options and would have had more. He has shown to my mind at least that he can call plays-he just does not have the horses to compete. When he does, I think our offense will be dynamic. We just need to improve our OL, have a couple of our young WRs step up to stardom, and most importantly, get a QB. Again, this all goes back to the fact we are rebuilding a roster that suffered from 10 years of neglect by a couple of imcompetents who didn't realize how little they knew about building a roster. You don't recover from 10 years of terrible personnel moves in 2 years. When we have the thoroughbreds, we will win the race.

We aren't winning any races if Kyle is the lead Jockey and I have questions about Mike as head trainer but am willing to wait on those.

Look when you don't have the players you need for the things you like to do, you have to adjust what you would like to do to things that your players can do and do well. That is the point that continues to be glossed over. Kyle has demonstrated that (to me anyways)

I would buy the stop-gap argument if it wasn't a pattern to acquire old, crusty, ineffective WRs (after using 3 picks on the draft on the position). A rebuilding team would play the young guys (See Morris, Raheem of the Buccaneers of Tampa Bay). This ain't a rebuild.
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Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
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  #80  
Old 11-03-2011, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cal_junior View Post
-I said that fans in this thread were upset with the comments. I meant exactly that.
Keino has said he's angry at the comments. He also made a rationale case for why they upset him(which is the antithesis of what Cooley is talking about). I said they were stupid and that players who engage with fans are stupid. CNY questioned that anything was improved in an non-angry way. Nicefellow said that the way things were being done was wrong in a non-angry way. I dont know how you can claim that anyone other than Keino was upset, but even he's not what you want him to be.

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Originally Posted by cal_junior View Post
-I wasn't holding Keino responsible for anybody else. I simply addressed his specific point about Kyle. So again, not a straw man.
And you falsely attributed arguments to him that Cooley was complaining about. Keino said that the skins should have gotten rid of cooley years ago when he had trade value, not what Cooley was complaining about. This is a clear straw man.
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  #81  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:10 AM
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While ripping anyone who made legit criticisms of the team. Kyle's handling of the QB situation last year were enough for me to fire him after one year. You will have to show me where anyone advocated cutting Cooley. Trading him (if he had value) isn't as preposterous as he or you if you agree with him make it sounds. A forward thinking team would have traded him 2 years ago when someone would have overpaid for his services. Furthermore, while I didn't agree with the idea of firing Mike after one season, there were certainly valid and legitimate arguments in favor of doing so, in particular, the number of things we have been debating that I am not going to rehash. Suffice it to say that there are/were plenty of amateurish moves by Mike, from schematic to Personnel to handling the media that warrant examination. So even if I don't agree with the conclusion, I can't act like the notion of firing him was completely unreasonable based on the reasoning put forth.

My point is that he is improperly ripping fans who dare to criticize, when in fact he should just focus on doing his job. I don't see where he is talking about Kyle, Mike or anyone. Moreover, the ripping of Fans who by definition are unreasonable for being unreasonable is like yelling at a rose for being red. There is no point.

And to head off the eventual semantic game: Fan is short for fanatic which is defined as: a person who has wildly excessive or irrational devotion, dedication, or enthusiasm
I guess I don't see the ripping as being improper. There are fans out there who have been highly critical of Dan Snyder for not "getting it" when it comes to the NFL. Then some of those same fans want a coach with far more success over the past decade than we've had in DC fired after one season. Or they want an OC who was (I think even the Kyle haters would agree) at least competent the two prior seasons fired after less than a year. There's nothing wrong with a respected vet telling it like it is.

I don't see how one could reasonably argue Cooley making himself available for an off-day radio show is taking time away from his job focus. His on-the-field reputation speaks for itself in that regard.

And thanks for the definition of fan. We dodged a bullet there

From Oct 25:

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Time to move on Cooley's days are done here Davis and Paulsen are better and more athletic.

Time to establish some new leaders and playmakers Davis is off to a good start.
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  #82  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:17 AM
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Keino has said he's angry at the comments. He also made a rationale case for why they upset him(which is the antithesis of what Cooley is talking about). I said they were stupid and that players who engage with fans are stupid. CNY questioned that anything was improved in an non-angry way. Nicefellow said that the way things were being done was wrong in a non-angry way. I dont know how you can claim that anyone other than Keino was upset, but even he's not what you want him to be.



And you falsely attributed arguments to him that Cooley was complaining about. Keino said that the skins should have gotten rid of cooley years ago when he had trade value, not what Cooley was complaining about. This is a clear straw man.
-You weren't angry. I stand corrected.

-Keino said: "he should shut-up because calls for Kyle's incompetence to be removed and the taint of Shanhan nepotism aren't evidence of hypocrisy but are legitimate criticisms."

I was responding to that. Again, not a straw man.
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  #83  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:18 AM
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I guess I don't see the ripping as being improper. There are fans out there who have been highly critical of Dan Snyder for not "getting it" when it comes to the NFL. Then some of those same fans want a coach with far more success over the past decade than we've had in DC fired after one season. Or they want an OC who was (I think even the Kyle haters would agree) at least competent the two prior seasons fired after less than a year. There's nothing wrong with a respected vet telling it like it is.

I don't see how one could reasonably argue Cooley making himself available for an off-day radio show is taking time away from his job focus. His on-the-field reputation speaks for itself in that regard.

And thanks for the definition of fan. We dodged a bullet there

From Oct 25:
I am happy to help keeping a discussion from being bogged down in debates over definitions and how they apply to the discussion.

Cooley signed-up and gets paid to appear on that radio program. Having people call in and rip the direction of the team, the owner, the coaches, whatever, is what he signed up for. He should grin and bear it and keep his critical comments aimed at himself, his team, his coaches....really anyone but the fans, who have contributed to him being where he is now. Tell it like it is without ripping the fans who have every right to be pissed off at the state of things, many of whom could see all the issues with the team manifest before they ever occurred in reality.

Nothing that he does on the field gives him the right to rip me and others like me for daring to criticize the crappy direction of the franchise and the crappy owner. We hate him for more than his coaching carousel BTW, so the comment wasn't even accurate.

As for that October 25 post, I don't see where the poster is saying to cut anyone. Moving on means moving on which could entail cutting but could just as easily entail a trade.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsSwag2 View Post
Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.
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  #84  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:22 AM
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-You weren't angry. I stand corrected.
I wasn't and no one but Keino is. But he makes a rational case for his complaints and doesn't fall into Cooley's description of what he's whining about.

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Originally Posted by cal_junior View Post
-Keino said: "he should shut-up because calls for Kyle's incompetence to be removed and the taint of Shanhan nepotism aren't evidence of hypocrisy but are legitimate criticisms."

I was responding to that. Again, not a straw man.
Thats different than what Cooley is whining about. And for the 3rd time: these criticisms are being made by pundits and reporters, not just the fans. Cooley bitching about the fans is a straw man. And you trying to hold up Keino as an example of the fans he's talking about is in error and is a straw man.
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  #85  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:31 AM
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I am happy to help keeping a discussion from being bogged down in debates over definitions and how they apply to the discussion.

Cooley signed-up and gets paid to appear on that radio program. Having people call in and rip the direction of the team, the owner, the coaches, whatever, is what he signed up for. He should grin and bear it and keep his critical comments aimed at himself, his team, his coaches....really anyone but the fans, who have contributed to him being where he is now. Tell it like it is without ripping the fans who have every right to be pissed off at the state of things, many of whom could see all the issues with the team manifest before they ever occurred in reality.

Nothing that he does on the field gives him the right to rip me and others like me for daring to criticize the crappy direction of the franchise and the crappy owner. We hate him for more than his coaching carousel BTW, so the comment wasn't even accurate.

As for that October 25 post, I don't see where the poster is saying to cut anyone. Moving on means moving on which could entail cutting but could just as easily entail a trade.
-I don't see Cooley's comments as telling fans they don't have a right to be angry as much as pointing out the hypocrisy in a certain line of thinking. They have a right to be angry and he has a right to tell them why he disagrees with their anger.

-Agree to disagree on the second point. I think a player who has proven his worth by his play on the field and time as a member the off-the-field community has every right to express his opinion when it comes to fans. He is "one of us," and I don't view his opinions the same way I would someone outside the Skins family.

-You are right, my earlier point was poorly phrased. Fans were calling for us to "move on" from Cooley hours after he was on IR, not specifically for us to cut him.
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  #86  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:39 AM
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I wasn't and no one but Keino is. But he makes a rational case for his complaints and doesn't fall into Cooley's description of what he's whining about.



Thats different than what Cooley is whining about. And for the 3rd time: these criticisms are being made by pundits and reporters, not just the fans. Cooley bitching about the fans is a straw man. And you trying to hold up Keino as an example of the fans he's talking about is in error and is a straw man.
-I agree that Keino's anger is completely rational, despite the fact I disagree with the feeling. Another point where you and I agree. (What's happening?)

-Keino said Cooley should shut up because calls for Kyle to be removed are not hypocritical. I agreed, but said I think Cooley was making a bigger point and not focusing on Kyle. Had Cooley just been addressing that OC point, Keino would have been exactly right.

Keino made a point and I made a counter-point. Not a straw man.
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  #87  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:42 AM
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-I agree that Keino's anger is completely rational, despite the fact I disagree with the feeling. Another point where you and I agree. (What's happening?)
This isn't difficult. You want to claim that the fans in this thread(your words) were angry about Cooley's comments. They're not. Except Keino. Now you're doing your "lost in translation" routine.

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Originally Posted by cal_junior View Post
-Keino said Cooley should shut up because calls for Kyle to be removed are not hypocritical. I agreed, but said I think Cooley was making a bigger point and not focusing on Kyle. Had Cooley just been addressing that OC point, Keino would have been exactly right.

Keino made a point and I made a counter-point. Not a straw man.
I've already addressed this, and you're again trying to bury everything in semantics. Please give it a rest and address the points directly(if you can).
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  #88  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:47 AM
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This isn't difficult. You want to claim that the fans in this thread(your words) were angry about Cooley's comments. They're not. Except Keino. Now you're doing your "lost in translation" routine.

I've already addressed this, and you're again trying to bury everything in semantics. Please give it a rest and address the points directly(if you can).
-I don't "want to claim" anything. I mistook some comments critical of Cooley in the thread as being anger. You've explained to me yours were not. No routine.

-Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss logical fallacies. But the two posts in question are not an example of straw man.
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  #89  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:52 AM
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-I don't "want to claim" anything. I mistook some comments critical of Cooley in the thread as being anger. You've explained to me yours were not. No routine.
And CNY and Nicefellow.

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-Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss logical fallacies. But the two posts in question are not an example of straw man.
I guess you can't stop trying to bury everything down in semantics lol
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  #90  
Old 11-03-2011, 12:00 PM
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And CNY and Nicefellow.

I guess you can't stop trying to bury everything down in semantics lol
-I don't recall thinking those two were angry.

-You've criticized me for doing something. I'm defending myself.
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