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  #16  
Old 11-15-2011, 04:35 PM
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Certain positions improve as the talent around them improves. For example, give me a great QB, and I will give you receivers who put up good numbers. Give me a good RT and center, and the RG suddenly looks a lot mor competent.

Point is some positions on this team need vital improvement like QB. Others are probably fine as is with improvements to other positions.
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2011, 05:30 PM
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Default Andre Carter

I thought he couldn't play in a 3-4 defense. Somehow the Pats figured out how to use him. He had 4.5 sacks on Sunday. 9.5 on the season. mmmmm? Perhaps we could have used Andre as another pass rushing specialist.

Last edited by lorimike : 11-15-2011 at 05:31 PM. Reason: spelling

  #18  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lorimike View Post
I thought he couldn't play in a 3-4 defense. Somehow the Pats figured out how to use him. He had 4.5 sacks on Sunday. 9.5 on the season. mmmmm? Perhaps we could have used Andre as another pass rushing specialist.
The Pats aren't playing him in space and are using him in 4-3 looks. We had Carter responsible for Flats and covering backs and TEs out of the backfield, a skill he has never really had.
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Long will never start for us and neither will the kid from stanford. We fot fleecsd .....moses wont start either there is a reason he fell so far. Sosorry this draft has disaster written all over it
Just so I don't forget, I intend to remind the above poster about this quote.

  #19  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:12 PM
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The Pats aren't playing him in space and are using him in 4-3 looks. We had Carter responsible for Flats and covering backs and TEs out of the backfield, a skill he has never really had.
Also, Vince Wilfolk and Ron Brace playing in the middle.
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:25 PM
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The Pats aren't playing him in space and are using him in 4-3 looks. We had Carter responsible for Flats and covering backs and TEs out of the backfield, a skill he has never really had.
that's been part of our problem We seldom access our own talent correctly. Pats know how to use Andre Carter correctly, we did not. Another guy that comes to mind is Ryan Clark in Pittsburgh. I noticed that Chad Rhinehart found himself a starting job in Buffalo- we could probably use that player about now.

  #21  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:30 PM
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#1 pick QB … doesn’t really matter which of the top 3 or so QBs any should do to build around

#2 & #3 OL … tackle and guard

#4 till done … DBs, LBs & OL

Wouldn’t be so bad assuming #1 is a top 3 QB and #2 & #3 are starting caliber OL and the Injury bug stays away
Our #2 pick should be high enough to still net a quality starting lineman, hopefully a starting RT or C, prefer RT.

Next year's draft deep at ILB. Don't be surprised if 2nd or 3rd round pick is used on one. Or one of 4th round picks.

I think Grossman should be added to your cuts, and will consider next year's draft a complete failure if we don't draft 2 QBs, 1 with 1st round pick, another later. Ideally, my draft would be QB, OL, OL, QB, WR or ILB (we have 2 4th round picks). Moss should be only old WR on roster next season--but of course won't be.

Honestly, since we have NOTHING at QB, we should draft or obtain 3 rookie/really young QBs, and start grooming them all and get them learning system. Assuming there is talent available, I would love to see a draft that is nothing but OL, QB, and maybe 1 WR, ILB, DL or CB. Though of course we still need DL.

The Hankerson injury devastating. He had the talent to be a solid #1/#2, Paul solid #2/#3. Our #2 and #3 picks both go down--man. Both injuries that players may never be the same after.

The moral of the story is depth. A dearth of depth. The death of depth? We still need depth at every position except WR and maybe TE. And starters at many positions. Oft said, we need 2-3 more solid drafts before we are anywhere close to being a contender, even with a solid QB.

Ha ha ha I am so not clever.

  #22  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:32 PM
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I think the biggest problem is talent evaluation, and having the President/Coach as the same person. This team should of never changed to a 3-4 just because other people were successful running it.

Since they were hell bent on 3-4, why not get a damn good DC for it? Wade Philips is a phenomenal DC. Sucks as HC, but he's worked wonders for Houston. Again.....talent evaluation.

  #23  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dolla Bill View Post
I think the biggest problem is talent evaluation, and having the President/Coach as the same person. This team should of never changed to a 3-4 just because other people were successful running it.

Since they were hell bent on 3-4, why not get a damn good DC for it? Wade Philips is a phenomenal DC. Sucks as HC, but he's worked wonders for Houston. Again.....talent evaluation.
With Philips it's more coaching than talent evaluation IMO. The talent evaluators need to know the skills and abilities of your scheme to match talent to it.

  #24  
Old 11-15-2011, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SkinsfaninNJ View Post
Certain positions improve as the talent around them improves. For example, give me a great QB, and I will give you receivers who put up good numbers. Give me a good RT and center, and the RG suddenly looks a lot mor competent.

Point is some positions on this team need vital improvement like QB. Others are probably fine as is with improvements to other positions.
I don't know about this. If you have a receiver with butter fingers, bad hands, an Elite QB can't do anything for that.

My concern in this rebuilding is trusting the brains to pick the right QB. That is a huge concern of mine.

  #25  
Old 11-15-2011, 07:11 PM
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Certain positions improve as the talent around them improves. For example, give me a great QB, and I will give you receivers who put up good numbers. Give me a good RT and center, and the RG suddenly looks a lot mor competent.
Absolutely. I remember how awesome I though Dallas Clark was. Then Jacob Tamme filled in for him and there was no difference in production.
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  #26  
Old 11-15-2011, 07:37 PM
44 goes 50 gut 44 goes 50 gut is offline
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One thing this injury and losing streak is doing is illustrating just how thin at every position the skins are. the running game went to Hell with the first OL injury. The passing game went with Moss. Ahk's list may be negative but its pretty much true. Now that doesn't mean I agree with his and CNY's apparent conviction that Shanahan is at fault for that. I do agree that it is the reality they are facing.

I was hoping they would improve incrementally, but then I didn't expect the Bills and niners to be games they had little chance of winning. On hindsight both those teams have been rebuilding for much longer than the skins.

The ugly truth Skins fans need to embrace is that the team is going to suck for a couple years... honest evaluation puts them at maybe 30% of where they need to be with starting talent, and perhaps not even 20% for backup/second string depth.

Paper thin has never been more of an apt description. If a starter goes down the next man up may very well be an undrafted FA and the team is scrambling to find someone bagging groceries to back up the UDFA.

It may be that this "ship" is carrying too much speed in the wrong direction (not at all helped by last year) and isn't even done going in the wrong direction. Let alone turning the right way. To mangle a phrase: momentum is a m*****f*****.

I don't know if there's a better example of bleeding a team dry than the Skins of the last decade. It all started with Jeff George vs Brad Johnson (who the skins gave up a pick to get pre Snyder IIRC) and didn't end until (hopefully) this past summer. To think it will only take a year or two to compensate for that is sadly way optimistic.

  #27  
Old 11-15-2011, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by hail2skins View Post
With Philips it's more coaching than talent evaluation IMO. The talent evaluators need to know the skills and abilities of your scheme to match talent to it.
Oh, most definitely. I think with Phillips, he could of schemed better to hide the lack of talent we have on defense. I don't think the Texans have head and shoulders more talent than the skins, but with him calling a defense he puts them in positions to succeed.

I should clarify that I think there are two things lacking at Redskins Park. Talent evaluation and coaching. They are two things that are so entwined with one another, that if one falters, the other should make up the slack. Problem is that both are just horrible at the moment.

  #28  
Old 11-15-2011, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 44 goes 50 gut View Post
One thing this injury and losing streak is doing is illustrating just how thin at every position the skins are. the running game went to Hell with the first OL injury. The passing game went with Moss. Ahk's list may be negative but its pretty much true. Now that doesn't mean I agree with his and CNY's apparent conviction that Shanahan is at fault for that. I do agree that it is the reality they are facing.

I was hoping they would improve incrementally, but then I didn't expect the Bills and niners to be games they had little chance of winning. On hindsight both those teams have been rebuilding for much longer than the skins.

The ugly truth Skins fans need to embrace is that the team is going to suck for a couple years... honest evaluation puts them at maybe 30% of where they need to be with starting talent, and perhaps not even 20% for backup/second string depth.

Paper thin has never been more of an apt description. If a starter goes down the next man up may very well be an undrafted FA and the team is scrambling to find someone bagging groceries to back up the UDFA.

It may be that this "ship" is carrying too much speed in the wrong direction (not at all helped by last year) and isn't even done going in the wrong direction. Let alone turning the right way. To mangle a phrase: momentum is a m*****f*****.

I don't know if there's a better example of bleeding a team dry than the Skins of the last decade. It all started with Jeff George vs Brad Johnson (who the skins gave up a pick to get pre Snyder IIRC) and didn't end until (hopefully) this past summer. To think it will only take a year or two to compensate for that is sadly way optimistic.
What I don't get is how this isn't shanny's fault. I can buy into the fact that the roster can't be completely remade in two years but shanahan has mostly remade it in two years. He should have at least improved some depth. There are even examples that he should have recognized when he was here:
-He dealt with a hurt landry all last season, but he didn't even bother to add quality depth at safety.
-He dealt with a pathetic oline and pathetic depth last year. Yet he didn't bother to significantly upgrade the line much less the depth.

When does this become shanny's responsibility?

  #29  
Old 11-15-2011, 10:00 PM
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What I don't get is how this isn't shanny's fault. I can buy into the fact that the roster can't be completely remade in two years but shanahan has mostly remade it in two years. He should have at least improved some depth. There are even examples that he should have recognized when he was here:
-He dealt with a hurt landry all last season, but he didn't even bother to add quality depth at safety.
-He dealt with a pathetic oline and pathetic depth last year. Yet he didn't bother to significantly upgrade the line much less the depth.

When does this become shanny's responsibility?
You're assuming that everyone Shanny adds is his ideal choice for the job.

The local radio guys go on and on about this. You hear "well there's a lot of new faces, they are all guys shanny thinks are good" in reality its a lot more likely that they are guys he has to live with for now because he only had so many draft picks and so many guys willing to sign here.

Also you're assuming he's had a bunch of options that would have been upgrades... the most likely reason he resigns guys like Doughty or brought back Rabach in the first season is he doesn't want to MAKE NEW HOLES when he doesnt have enough resources to patch the ones he already has. This is why its a process. The way I look at it, he's got a nearly empty talent pool and he's still putting patches on gaping holes.... let alone tearing "leaky" patches off because they aren't that good (doughty) It's going to be a while before the pool holds water. There's not much point worrying about old patches that are above the water line for the next year or two.

Another assumption people make is that QB's and OL were available to be had that fit what Shanahan needs but he passed on them. I haven't seen this supported by facts, and I doubt anyone is going to use Ryan Mallet's preseason snaps as facts. Sure he looked good... So did Matt Cassels, a paralyzed one armed chimp would have a 50% completion ratio in that system.

It's easy for fans to say "do something about the QB" some of them don't want to hear that maybe they were aiming for one of the guys that went before they picked. Plans don't often work out exactly how you draw them up in fact they usually don't. Skins fans won't have any of that... we need infallible coaches who only draw up plans that go off like a heist movie.

BTW I will extend this same courtesy to any coach they hire if Shanahan gets the axe. It's not a defense of Shanahan its IMO a reasonable apraisal of just how badly Snyderatto screwed us.

  #30  
Old 11-15-2011, 10:34 PM
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that's been part of our problem We seldom access our own talent correctly. Pats know how to use Andre Carter correctly, we did not. Another guy that comes to mind is Ryan Clark in Pittsburgh. I noticed that Chad Rhinehart found himself a starting job in Buffalo- we could probably use that player about now.
Insult to injury? Peter King wrote on Monday how well Heyer is playing at guard for Oakland. Akh was a number of proponents around here advocating moving him to guard full time.
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